Olga Khazan || The Perks of Being a Weirdo

It's great to have Olga Hazan on the podcast. Zon is a staff writer for The Atlantic, covering health, gender and science. Prior to that, she was the Atlantic Global Editor. She's also written for The Los Angeles Times, the Washington Post, Forbes, and other publications. She's a two time recipient of the International Reporting Project's Journalism Fellowship and winner of the twenty seventeen National Headliner Awards for magazine online writing. Olga, I'm

so giddy to talk to you today. I've been weighing a while. Yeah, no, this is very exciting. Thanks for having me on. You know, because I'm weird and I own it, and I own it, and as an adult I own it. As a child, it was harder, you know, but I resonated so much with your book and your story and just everything about the way you wrote it. I thought we could just start off, maybe you could tell our listeners a little bit about the origin of

your own weirdness. Yeah, totally so. I kind of got interested in this topic because I grew up in West Texas and my parents were Russian Jewish refugee too, which my grandparents were Yeah, oh that's cool. Yeah, when did they come over? So my grandma actually escaped the Pagrams. Oh wow, oh wow. They actually hit her at the age of like five. They hit her in a little wagon and the whole thing she escaped. Wow, she was hardcore. Our story was a little less hardcore. Ours was like

involved airplanes and just like documents and visa processes. But we did end up in West Texas where there were not a lot of other Russian Jews, and that experience really shaped me. I mean, your your childhood experiences, you know, do tend to shape who you are. I had I was like kind of for forcibly, I guess, like a loaner.

I never had a lot of friends. I always felt really different from everyone else around me, and I wanted to explore that feeling of what it's like for people who are very different in their environment, that are kind of visibly or noticeably not like everyone else around them. So I started looking for places that were completely homogeneous except for the one kind of outsider, the one outlier

who stuck out. Love that. And were you a kind of person where when you were a kid, you always would gravitate towards the people in the playground that looked like they were sitting alone or kind of the outlier. I know, I certainly did. There's the ones I kind of gravitated towards. Yeah, I feel like there's like a

natural tendency, like loner kids to flock together. I remember getting really excited if there was ever any possibility that a kid was also foreign, Like I remember I glombed onto this one girl in like third grade or something because she knew how to sing that French song for I was like, Oh, she's so international, Like maybe she'll understand my family and they're like beat dishes, And so I would like seek out kids who I thought were also kind of unusual like me, even if that was

like a totally artificial thing that I was making up in my mind. That's cool. You have this. You say in your book that this book is for those who have spent their lives feeling different, as well as for those who only feel different by dint of circumstance, perhaps because of a job or move. So maybe you got the sense that they moved from France. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Cool.

So you've argued that just as we're becoming more alienated from one another, splintering into tribes and escaping to our screens and echo chambers, our livelihoods increasingly depend on being smooth and capable collaborators. Everyone is feeling weirder and we're all supposed to be fine with it. That's a lot that you've you've picked up on about our current state

of our culture. Yeah, I mean, what I mean there is like, you know, I do feel like so, I mean this is this is like proven that that white collar jobs in particular are more reliant on people's skills and social skills and being kind of collaborative and getting along, you know, well with other people. And uh, you know, at the same time, we become a very polarized society. You know, not a lot of people have friends outside

of their political group. There's some research in the book about like the shockingly small number of people who have friends who are of a different race or sexual orientation. A lot of people in general don't know a single transgender person. So we all kind of live in our little bubble, and we kind of are say, within our little bubble, and at the same time we're expected to just be like effortlessly getting along with everyone else with no hard feelings or frictions at work. So that's kind

of what I was describing there. Yeah, it's an interesting paradox in sense, you know, we're all with our tribes, and we and within our own tribes, we may be like, oh, we feel so weird, we feel so outcasted, But it seems like everyone's kind of feeling outcast outcasted is that a word outcasted? I don't know, but everyone feels like an outcast these days. It seems like something we could all bond over as opposed to polarize over, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. Yeah, I don't know.

So this has been something that I have wondered about, is like, will people bond over the feeling of being an outsider? And I do feel like people tend to be like yes or no. Like either people buy the book and they're like, yes, this is for me. I feel weird, like you totally captured something that I was dealing with, or people are like, I have no idea what's talking about. I have no Like I don't feel weird at all, Like I this, you know, the this

is maybe interesting, but it doesn't describe me. So I do think a ton of people out there feel weird and feel like there's something different about them and feel a lot of social anxiety or just like misfitness. But you know some people are just like president of the sorority and have a ton of friends and like never dealt with any of this stuff. So yeah, no, it's totally fair. I mean, I wrote a book on creativity

on creative people. People either really got it They're like, that's me, I'm a creative person, or they didn't really resonate so deeple with the descriptions. And I think there's a lot of overlap between the probably people who resonate with your book as being weird and the people resonate with my book is being conceptually thinking of themselves as the creative person. Yeah totally Yeah, Well that's actually in the book is that people who are weird tend to

be more creative. So you're probably wrote that whole chapter. Actually, it's great. You talk about social norms and you talk about how social norms can change, well, that people actually

changing their attitudes. Can you give an example that, Yeah, the example that I used in the book was, well, i'll use the lighter example because I don't want to get into the Rwanda genocide and psycho but the one that I like, so this again is backed up by research, but the one that I picked up on in my everyday life was I went to this spa called Spa World where you have to be naked and they don't let you go in with a swimsuit on or like any kind of rope or anything like that. And it

was amazing how like to watch people. People clearly thought it was like gross and weird. They did not who were new to it, like they didn't want to be naked. They were like, you know, people couples would come there for like their couples spa get away and said they were like being stripped down and like separated by sex and like it was very like a love So people were clearly upset, but like you quickly saw them like agree to follow the norm. Like people literally no one

broke the nakedness rule. People were like very cool about like gazing and like the middle since kind of like oh, this is what we're all doing and like this is I guess fine. So it's just like an interesting example of how like if you're told to do something, you know, people will shift their norms even if like Okay, this is weird or whatever, I don't really want to do this,

but I'll do it. Well, isn't there some deep implication there We have to be very careful about how much we normalize some things because they can become the new normal in a way that go against our values, our attitudes. Yeah, totally.

I mean I'm not saying that's necessarily always a good thing, Like it can be a good thing, and you can shift norms for the better, like you can you know, we don't discriminate or we don't you know whatever, say racist things, which is great, but you could also create a norm that goes in the opposite direction that people

are just as likely to follow. So it kind of just shows the not that example in particular, but the research on norms shows the incredible power of norms and how much people like to follow whatever the rules are and kind of go along and get along. A love that. Well, you say that it's wait, you talk about brain science, and you talk about one reason why it's hard to be the different one is that to our brains, there's

something intoxicating about the familiar. There must be individual differences in that, because there's something in talks king to me about being weird. But maybe you're saying for most people, Yeah, for most people, we just like things that we're kind of used to. So I use examples from the history

of dating and the workplace and just different contexts. Were like, a lot of anti immigrant sentiment comes from people just not liking cultural differences, like people not even necessarily saying I'm worried about, you know whatever, Mexican stealing our jobs. Kind of deeper than that, as people saying I actually just don't like it that they don't speak English like people people like other people who are remind them of themselves.

This is actually something that comes a lot, as I'm sure you're aware from like re search on representation in the workplace kind of why it's important to have representatives of different cultures and you know, minority backgrounds and things high up in the workplace. Is that is that people tend to promote people who remind them of themselves. And if you don't have anyone who if there's only white men at the top, they're only going to promote white

men because that's what they're like, reminds of them. So that kind of can be that is extrapolated, and that that holds true for other realms. It also can surely demotivate those who aren't white men to be motivated and ambitious to that degree to want to do that because they don't clearly see a path a pathway to it. It It can be very demotivating. Yeah, totally, Yeah, I mean it works both ways obviously. Well, you write about gender

issues a bit. What are what are what are the what are the ones that are most on your mind these days? Well, I mean, yeah, so speaking of I mean gender issues, Like so, a major reason why we have is that a lot of people don't think women would make a good president, and the reason for that is that we've never had a female president. So when

people think about presidents, they think about white men. And that's another example of how people really like to keep things the same and really like to uphold the norm. When you think about, like how could someone as qualified as Hillary Clinton lose to Trump? A lot of that could be explained by sexism, And a lot of why someone like Elizabeth Warren could lose to Biden can also be unfortunately explained by sexism. But sexism is a type

of norm. My book doesn't explain literally everything in the world, but it does kind of You can see glimmers of this desire for conformity in current events too. When did we become so hateful toward outsiders that you put this within a historical context, which I thought was really interesting. How did we go from the whale party to fascism?

So there's this debate among scholars about whether people were always xenophobic or whether that started kind of recently, And so there's like some interesting research on how like, actually, if you just let society do kind of whatever, right, if you just like let people hang out and chill and like not have money or work or rules, they'll just have a big whale party and like a big orgy where they just hang out and eat whale and

like have sex with each other. I'm literally like talking about stuff that's been observed and so, but do whales taste good to these whale hunters? They do? I personally go and enjoy it. I have tried whale yeah, whale party. Yeah. But you know what, So what they found though, is that is that really sense of like I don't like

people who are different from me. Started with farming, because farming is when you really started having tracks of land that were yours, you started having resources that were yours, and you had to kind of cultivate a little plot and take care of your own little tribe and your own little community. And you couldn't just have like random bands of humans traveling around together and like being chill and like having a whale party, because you had to

you know, it wasn't a whale party. It was a harvest, and it had to be coordinated and it could only you know, go towards so many people, and usually those people were going to be people who look like you. Part part of it due to history. But surely our tribal instincts run very deep, evolutionary wise and colded into our biology in a lot of ways to want to categorize things in that way. But this idea of being actively hateful towards outsiders because there's nothing to say that

we have to be hateful towards our our group. Yeah, I mean, but people historically are. I think there was one study that found that people have similar reactions to homeless people that they do to like a dirty bathroom. People just really really don't especially low what we would typicallyssociate with, like a low status person in society. People

just have really negative reactions to outgroups like that. Yeah, so we have this kind of build in bias, but then we also have all these more evolved capacities to override it and to see people in a more thoughtful way, in a more enlightened way, and a more holistic way.

I'm fascinated with trying to understand the difference between those who immediately react to what their most subcortical structure is telling them without thinking it through it all or without thinking about and those who that actually activate that prefontal cortex and like, well, hold up, Like, maybe I'm actually overgeneralizing here in this moment. It's tough. Yeah, I mean,

I think it's it's really tough to do. I think people do overgeneralize, and it takes a lot of self control and sort of metacognition and to say to yourself like, wait, maybe I'm wrong, Like you know about this like giant group that I fear, and you don't see a lot of that happening from either honestly, either political side, any kind of group. It tends to get very tribal very quickly, and people have very very negative feelings toward the opposite group.

So while it's definitely possible to be enlightened and think like, well, they're not all like that. Maybe I can think about some good members of this group, most people, unfortunately, just don't do that. No, And you're seeing it all over the news in every direction right right. I've tweeted something the other day that social scientists are having a field day right now with seeing everything we've ever studied in our entire careers just playing itself out in a magnified

way and in front of our TV screens. Tribal warfare, competitive this racism, discrimination, virtue signaling. I mean, so this goes on and on and on. It's fascinating to watch, and not just fascinating, but as a social scientist who cares, I want to see what I can do to actually change it. So let's just keep going down the list, because you know, there's lots of things that are along

the lines of what we're talking about. You report some studies that show that Americans view immigrants who speak English more favorably than those who speak other languages. That's a sort of automatic reaction. Yeah, I mean, so this is sort of an extension of what I was talking about earlier, which is that there's this kind of logical explanation for anti immigrant sentiment, which is, well, we want to protect

American jobs. But in fact, people have more negative reactions when the immigrant is more culturally distant from American culture. So people tend to have more negative reactions toward Mexican immigrants than British immigrants because the Mexican immigrant is more culturally distinct from us, and it activates that kind of inner sense of like, you know, I don't like this,

this person's different. That is super interesting. So that study, one of the studies you cited, specifically compared British immigrants to Mexican immigrants. No, that's just an example I used right now. I don't remember the two immigrant groups from that research in particular. But regardless that the study did compare English speaking two non English speaking immigrants. I believe that. Sorry, I would have to look that up later and let

you know precisely what they compared. I believe it was the cultural distance that mattered, and I believe there was other research on language, but I would have to look that up. Okay, I'll look it up too. So loneliness,

let's talk about loneliness. That's an another one that we we tend to kind of shun the lonely, and it seems to create this really unfortunate downward spiral for those individuals where they tend to be demotivated to even seek out for their interactions that may actually help them with their loneliness. Can you talk a little bit about that research.

There's been a lot a lot done on this, but essentially kind of one of the tragic things about loneliness is that you would think that, you know, I'm feeling lonely, I'm gonna I'm going to reach out and talk to others. But unfortunately, people who feel lonely often don't do that because they kind of have more negative interactions with other

people because of their loneliness. It's actually kind of like almost a persistent kind of negative state, and because of that, it can kind of exacerbate itself, like people, I think when one paper put it as like a piece of yarn, like unspooling from a sweater, where it kind of just gets worse and worse as it goes, because people who are lonely actually don't tend to reach out to others, and they don't tend to establish good connections with other

people in their lives, and that can actually make the loneliness worse. Yeah, or they may seek out as you know, they may seek out other outlets. They're very detrimentally terrorism and radicalization, right yeah, yeah, that blew me away. Yeah yeah, no, totally. Yeah. So there's like there's all these these studies on how people who unfortunately like some of the things that are attracting people to things like ISIS and other types of terror groups is just this feeling of not belonging in

their new in their new country. So if they move from you know, a predominantly Muslim country to Finland or something, you would think like, oh great, I'm in Finland, I get free healthcare or whatever. But sometimes the social stresses of being different from everyone around you, of being lonely, of being isolated, of being misunderstood. It can be so severe that it actually attracts people to those like in groupy fraternity like settings where they can be with other

people like them. If you note that overt social exclusion can leave a terrible mark on people who break gender norms directions happens with females or male traditionally male dominated fields, it can apply to males trying to enter traditionally female dominated fields. What are some what are some other examples that you had in mind when you were ranging about that. Yeah, so there's a lot of interesting research on prejudice that gay and lesbian and bisexual and transgender people experience and

negative health outcomes, both mental health and physical health. So in one study, for example, gay lesbian and bisexual people who experienced homophobic language got more headaches and chronic diseases, and they were in worse overall health. So it just goes to show that this feeling of like being ostracized and being told that you're less than or that you don't belong can actually have really severe mental and physical impacts on the person. Actually, this also plays out in

racial disparities and health. So one reason why African Americans tend to have poorer health outcomes and various domains is because of racism. An increasing number of scholars find so, like the stress of racism can actually impact the body and cause you to, for example, be more likely to give birth earlier, prematurely, more likely to have high blood pressure, more likely to have all these negative health outcomes that

then can tribute to racial disparities and health. So when we think about racial disparities, we usually assume that the problem is the person who's like living the life, but it could actually be all the other people around them treating them differently and worse. Yeah, so those are fascinating findings. I also wonder, because I want to look at the

nittigrade details of those studies. Do they also show that perceptions of racism can also affect you mentally to the point where it can make you sick as well, even if there isn't actual overt racism in your environment. I'm wondering about that as well, like sort of a just a sense of pervasis you're in a society where you don't feel safe and just constantly having that on your mind.

Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, I mean, so I didn't look at that specifically like perceived versus real treatment. It was all Usually these studies are like self report, so people will say like, yes, I feel discriminated against and I have a lot of headaches or something, you know what I mean. That's an interesting question, and I think the perceptions might be just as important in this case because ultimately, like, it's your perception that matters with

this stuff. It's not necessarily people could be thinking racist thoughts about you all the time, but if they don't tell you, then you're not going to necessarily be aware of that. But if you pick up on that and you think about it, and you you know it bothers you, then it can impact you. Yeah, just thinking about it's got to affect you, being the vice versa. I think

of the opposite case. You know, you're you're in an environment where you feel really welcomed and really like people by default you just assume accept you for who you are and are not discriminate against you. As a whole, different kind of mindset associated with it, thinking you know you're in that kind of environment. So it's trying to link it to that research, Well, should we move into

my favorite topic, creativity. I really love that stuff, and I was really excited to see you mention the work of my friend Erotica Damien one of my favorite studies. Can you can you maybe talk little about the methodology of that study and how weird experiences can make us more creative? Yeah, totally. So Rodica's work is really interesting. So she kind of what she did is put people in so we already know that people who are weird,

so there's all these negative effects of being weird. But then I talk about positive things that come with being different, and so we already know that people who are ostracized actually can sometimes be more creative. But she also actually put people an unusual situation, so she would have them do like a VR exercise where things like fell up

instead of down. So kind of the rules of society were kind of mixed up for you in these in these situations, and that actually ended up boosting creativity as well. So it's not just being a person. Let's say you're just a total average Joe, but you transport yourself to a situation where you are weird, or you just kind of you know, travel somewhere you just find you know, are in an unusual experience. It can help boost this thing called cognitive flexibility, or the ability to come up

with lots of different kinds of solutions to problems. So I really love that because it suggests that, like, you don't have to be like an immigrant in order to be creative. You can also just do something, do mushrooms or something. The suggestion I give is something that's just simple, as simple as putting milk in your cereal first before you put in the cereal. A lot of people put

in their cereal first and then the milk. I believe that was one of when I looked at her study, that was one of the actual things they had people do with something as simple as that is, just change up the way they make their morning cereal actually change their flex cognitive flexibility. But mushrooms, you know, I'm not rolling that one out. Yeah, you could stop at cereal. I guess you don't need to go to mushrooms if you're but but it's but she could, but she could. Yeah,

let's talk about truth a little bit. Oh okay, being different can help you stand out in a positive way. People that you talk about in your book illustrate doing something different can help you find your true calling, your true self, and even true love. So can you give an example of finding your true self and then example of finding your true love. This was a really interesting

chapter to write. Another thing that I noticed with so I kind of started with interviewing all these people who are different, so I didn't necessarily start with the findings and try to find people to plug them into. But what I noticed is that people who were different were like really all about whatever they were doing. So they were like very sure they wanted to be in their profession or living where they lived, or married to who

they were married. Like they were like totally set on it to a degree that I think a lot of other people struggle with. Like I think other people are maybe a little more ambivalent. So one guy that I talked to was a Mormon missionary in Bulgaria, and he was pretty miserable. He was from California, he was in Bulgaria. Bulgarians were not open to being Mormons. They were not interested at all. He was getting like rejected all day every day. He was like the only Mormon around. He

had no friends. His job was to like not on people's doors and get yelled that all day. It was terrible for him, not saying the Mormon missionary experience is terrible. I talked to a lot of other Mormon missionaries who had a great experience, but for this guy, it was just really bad. But it really helped shape what he thought about himself. Like after that, he felt really confident about quitting the Mormon Church, which was the right move

for him. He started going down this road of trying to become a police officer, and he actually ended up quitting because it reminded him too much of the Mormon missionary experience and made him more certain that he didn't want to do it. Even before he kind of really wasted too much time and energy trying to become a cop. So it was one of those like clarifying moments of like, this is who I am, this is what I believe.

And interestingly, I actually also heard that from Mormon missionaries who had a positive experience that they were like this made me more committed to the Mormon Church. It made me more sure that I'm a Mormon, because when you're constantly questioning, like is this really the right thing to be doing, like you come to a definite yes or no. So that was I thought really cool. And then the true love example were the people who were like some of the first people to do online dating. They found

each other through Match dot Com in the nineties. It was very adorable. They went to like a Cranberry's concert together, but it was funny because every person around them was like, you're crazy, Like you're gonna get axe murdered. This is like weird and bad. But they just because they had this strong connection because there were like five people on Match at the time, they felt like fate was bringing them together and they felt so like they had this

special bond. They could read all these like emails they were sending each other. You know. It almost like made it more special that people thought that it was strange, So it helped them find each other and they're still married. Good for that. Yeah, I can I can totally see some early hesitation around online dating. Now we're like the tender level where it's like, are you around in the next five minutes? I'm not in touch with them, But

they've been married since the nineteen ninety four. Yeah, it's actually kind of beautiful. Can we talk a little about how to be different? Someone's listening to this and they're hearing all these great things that can come along from being different, that doesn't all have to be bad. You're talking a little bit. Maybe I was thinking about starting

with the philosopher Christina Bicarini. I haven't been able to pronounce her name, and I like like a lots of such with her, so I didn't get to ask her. But Christina basically found that people have different thresholds of other people that they need in order to do something,

usually something weird, in order to do with themselves. So if you think about burning Man, like, some people will be like the second guy and burning Man like he's just like, yeah, I'll go to the desert and like, you know whatever erect attent and live off generosity or whatever they're doing. Some people need, like you know, the CEOs of a fortune five hundred company to go to burning band before they'll really consider it. They are not necessarily going to be the first or second person to

do something. They're going to be kind of at the tail end. So the people who are these norm breakers, who are you know, like the people who did match dot com in the nineties, are people with very low thresholds, like they will do something experimental even if nobody's really doing it. So her work basically just shows that people have different thresholds, and if you're someone who's a norm violator, you might have a threshold of like one or two

instead of like one hundred. Fair enough, and you and these trend centers tend to have comfort with discomfort? Is that another characteristic? So something that I noticed among the people that I interviewed is that they have this ability to not really care what other people thought of them or just like two. Yeah, essentially I call it comfort with discomfort. So one example from that section is this woman who I gave a student and in in my believe

they gave her the pseudonym Ozma. But she grew up as a as a Muslim, black Muslim in a very kind of small southern town and it was really tough. Everybody was Christian. Even though there were other black kids, they were not Muslim. People kind of had strange reactions to her, and she kind of decided that that was okay. Like all through college, all through like you know, being a kid in that town, all through college of like you know, going to Kegers and not drinking or you know,

not having sex. She kind of just decided that like she was totally comfortable with her choices. People could judge her, but she was going to be fine with that, and ultimately that's that's okay. I don't know, I thought that was like a very cool kind of attitude. Definitely not my attitude a lot of the time. If you can cultivate that, you know, that helps you kind of be different, if you can, if you can kind of brush that

stuff off. Absolutely. I just love people who self actualize in the way that's right for them, obviously not causing harm to others. But if as long as they're not causing harm others, I'm all for it. I support you, and you just you go just go, yeah, well cool, let's just end this chat. This is really interesting chat today talking about this question that you ponder at the end of your book, which is, well, what choice would make should we stay different or find your own kind?

Or is there an in between level here? I mean, I think it's different for everyone. I don't like instruct people to do one or the other. I kind of profile people who picked one of the different paths. I think I ultimately ended up kind of in between. Like I don't really consider myself totally American but I also don't. I went back to Russia and described that experience in the book and it was like hilariously bad. So I

definitely don't feel Russian anymore either. So yeah, so some people, a lot of the people that I talk to are just kind of like, yeah, I am like totally different, and that's that's okay, that's like that's how who I am, and it's that's the right thing. Well, you say, the weirder you are, the fewer and more precious are the people who truly accept you. So it's kind of a

price that you pay for being weird or not. Yeah, I mean, I don't know that this was like in the part where I was talking with another Russian immigrant woman about our grandmas who are both in poor health person unfortunately past and mine is in poor health, and I don't know, it's just like we were both reflecting on like how hard it is to find those people who are like you're great. If like you're you're completely

different from everyone else. You don't have that natural you don't have a sorority sisters, because you weren't an authority. So so it's you know, so treasured those people who are help you be your best self. Oh, I love that treasure, treasure of these people. Yeah, I have even greater appreciation for the people in your life if you're weird exactly you talk about nonconformists, which is high overlap with creative, creative people as well as weird people as all.

Then diagram you say, what you've learned about a lot of nonconformists is that they're driven by a desire to improve the lot of others. I really like this. After being picked on, marginalized, and sometimes outright and solded, they reflected their hurt feelings back as positive change in small ways, making life better for others helped nonconformists ameliorate their their

own exclusion. There's a lot in that. You actually got me thinking, because some people talk about how hurt people hurt people who but I don't think we talk often enough about I was saying about write a article out of this some day. We don't don't. We don't talk enough about the opposite. There are plenty of people who hurt it but use that for pro social you know, means to help prevent others from going through what they

had to go through. A very high proportion of people show the opposite effect then the hurt people hurt saying So I like that you illustrated that, so thank you. Oh you're welcome. Yeah. No, I think that's super important and something that I found not just for the book, but like in my reporting as well. Like I report a lot on poverty and people who have grown up in really difficult conditions, and like, honestly, the thing that they most often say is like, I want to start

a nonprofit. So this kind of thing doesn't happen to other people, like it's it's usually you know, they want to pay it forward in a positive way instead of in a negative way. Thank you so much for writing this book and chatting with me today and the promoting weirdness in the world. Yeah, totally, Yeah, thank you so much for having me on. This was super fun. Thanks

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