Nedra Tawwab || Set Boundaries, Find Peace

on numerous podcasts, including Today's podcast. She runs a popular Instagram account where she shares practices, tools and reflections for mental health and hosts weekly Q and a's. And I can honestly say I love her Instagram account. It makes my day almost every day. So thanks so much for being on the podcast today, Nedra, You're so welcome. Thank you for the warm introduction of course, well well deserved,

well deserved. So now I just want to just have our listeners a little do you know, know a little bit more about you before we dive into the topic of your latest book. So you've been a therapist or relationship counselor for thirteen years, a long time. You've You've seen a lot, right, You've seen a lot. Yeah, I've seen things go from in person to virtual. Yeah, it's a lot of people hurting right now. Huh. You know,

I would say that they are adjusting. I've been surprised at the amount of people who've adjusted to what this time has called for. In March, I got really really busy just with a lot of old folks coming back and with new people. So I think everyone has adjusted. There are still some folks who prefer in person, but they are doing what they need to in this pandemic. Yeah, people are doing what they need to do, and it kind of shows the deep reservoirs of resiliency that we have.

I mean, I think a lot of people of telling me and my own clients are saying, well, I didn't know that I could get through such such solitude, you know. Yeah. Yeah, so I think we need to give people a little bit pat on the back. Yeah. So, well, why do you write this book? It's a topic I know you've written about for a while and it's super super important. At what point were you like, you know what, I'm

gonna I'm gonna turn this to a book. You know, I noticed that there isn't a ton of information about boundaries, and there are some questions that I constantly asked about boundaries, Where are they? How do you set them? What do you exactly say how to deal with the guilt around

setting boundaries? So this book is an answer to so many questions that people have about boundaries because there's not any current piece of material that people can go to and say this is everything I need to know about boundaries. Is very piecemeal and it's a little bit of boundaries in this book and a little bit of boundaries here, or you know, and this is like all about boundaries, and so it was just necessary for the times. Yeah, yeah, it really is. Well, first of all, I just want

to ask, what is a boundary? You know, can do you have a proper definition of that? Yeah? I think a boundary is a verbal or behavioral statement that you make to feel comfortable, safe, and protected in your relationships with others. Typically, we think of boundaries as just verbal and really, when I say verbal, telling people what to do, right, So we think of that as boundaries, but it's so

much more than that. It can also be changing our behaviors in relationships, and sometimes it is asking other people to change their behaviors, and it's also saying no. So it's so many things, And I think when we think of that word, we think of these tough walls and always saying no, and that is just a midget of what a boundary is and not the totality of what healthy boundaries are. I think there's some like related concepts here.

I was super interested when you talked about enmeshment as well, and I think, you know, I thought, could you explain a little bit what that means? And also what is the difference between How can you tell when it's just you're just close with someone versus you're messed with someone? I would love to know the difference. Yeah, I think

of enmeshment as walking alongside someone. I meant walking intertwined with someone and being separate as walking alongside them so we can go our separate ways, we can come back together. But when we are intertwined with people, what we do is dependent on what they do. How we feel is dependent on how they feel, and so there is no separateness in each other. It's really we are the same person, and if we are not being the same, there is a problem when in relationships we are different. We have

you know, different TV preferences from our partners. Sometimes with our friends. We don't all have the same friend group. We have different jobs from people, so there are so many things about us that are different. And it doesn't mean that we need to be divided because of those differences, but maybe it's a part of the conversation. So if all of those things can be different, and okay, so can some of our needs, so can some of our

desires in relationships. I love that well. I mean, do you have a sort of checklist on like we's signs that you need to set down, Like what are some like when when should a warm bell start going off? One big alarm bell is your feelings. And I know sometimes it's really hard to think about how you feel because we're taught so often to question what we feel. I don't or talk yourself out of what you feel.

But when you're invited to a party and it's not a yes and you start to feel maybe anxious or upset about it, that might be an indication of a boundary needed. And that boundary could be no, it could be clarifying with the other person the expectations of a party. But it's certainly something there because you are feeling something,

and so what could that something be? So so often the indicator that we need boundaries the first thing is how we're feeling about something, and so teaching people not to bypass their feelings is a huge part of my work, and we do the basics of what does it mean to feel angry? What does it mean to feel sad? When you're what's the last thing that made you said? When you're sad? What do you do? What happens to

your body? Because so often we bypass it and we don't think about, like, oh my gosh, like this is an indicator that this thing really makes me upset. We just say, I don't know why I'm feeling like this. I should want to go to this thing. But wanting to go to something is not the same as actually wanting to go right, So we have to really tune into how we're feeling about the things we're caught to do, the things we're called to be in relationships, that is

the number one way. Number two is if there is a pattern of resentment in the relationship or frustration, if you chronically feel like you're being put upon, So really evaluating the patterns and dynamics in the relationship can help you understand what the boundaries are, And then you know, number three, I would say being attuned to what your desires are, because sometimes people may want something that we can't offer them or that we're unwilling to offer, and

in those cases it's okay to say no or yes or really figure that out. But being in tuned with who you are and your needs for yourself and your space certainly helps with that. Well, what's you say, there's like a number one reason why people are scared of setting boundaries, and can you talk a little about that? Is because I kind of resonated with that one. Yeah, the number one reason is the fear of what other

people will think about the boundaries. So we really get trapped in this idea that we will be rejected, that they won't listen to us, and the and the worst case scenario is the only option for this situation, and you know, many times that's not true. And really to combat that idea, we have to do a lot of work around what has happened in the past when we've asked someone, you know, maybe, hey, don't eat my carages, have my car detailed? Did they explode or did they

say okay? Most of the time they just said okay, But for some reason we really think about it to the point of exhaustion and being paralyzed and being able to implement this boundary. People have boundaries and we can too. Lots of people have boundaries in relationships. Lots of things are boundaries and we respect them and we don't make a big deal about it, and so perhaps other people

can do that too. Really, so there's hope here. There is, absolutely, there is so much hope, and setting boundaries with other people is not a hopeless process. I think we talk ourselves out of it. The most troubling piece is the long term relationships where we haven't had any boundaries and we're having to go in and slowly bring the relationship

up to a healthy pace. So that is pretty daunting to you know, go in with your parents, and go in with your siblings, and go in with your in laws and extended family on all of these sort of relationships, because now you're doing the really hard work of repairing something that was never there. And so those people they may be shocked by it, but they can just you know, they may still just say okay, I can do that

for you. So giving people the opportunity to tell you no before deciding that they will say no is really important when you're setting boundaries. I really really like that. You know, think a common problem with a lot of people who are chronic people pleasers we'll call them, is that that they're new to them feels like they're an asshole, so that there's like there's nothing in between. You're either, you know, you're either a good person or you're an asshole.

And if you say no, you're a nasshole. You know, what do you say to chronic people pleasers? Is there hope for them too? Yeah? I think that you know, at some point you have to be uncomfortable enough that you push past to put people pleasing, because if you continue to people please, you will continue to have those unhealthy relationships. And really the discomfort is a guide for the people who say, oh my gosh, I hate going over my parents' house on Sundays. You know there's a

way out of this. So I guess you have to get tired enough of doing this thing that you really don't like to do. Because we have options, and the option may not be something that you want to do, but it could be something that you could do and feel better. Well, let's talk about if you're okay comfortable

talking about your own personal journey to setting boundaries. You you, you come across to me as a really strong woman, a really strong you know, powerful, you know, like like you would tell me in a second if I said something you didn't want to answer, you'd be like, Scott, move on. I could just tell that already, Like I just I just met you, and all I'm getting that,

you know, like I get it. It's like it's like you you almost like you you have a presence about you kind of commands respect and and and and I'm just wondering if you've always been like that? It has it been a real process for you? Did you ever used to be a people pleaser? I'd love to hear some of your own personal journey, if you don't mind telling me. Yeah, I think it certainly has been a process.

And I think when you come across as assertive, you know, it is that fear of appearing mean, because sometimes, like let's say, if somebody mispronounces my name, which happens all the time, right, so if I say, oh, it's it's actually Nedra to Wap, some people will be like, oh my gosh, how can you correct me? And some people will just say, oh, okay, but you know, is that mean to correct someone when they're calling you, you know, Scootie instead of Scott, like do you all the time? Yeah?

It's like, who's being mean here? How do we determine what's right in this situation? I think whoever says that it's me is the person who feels like it's being mean, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it's true. And it's that same way with boundaries that sometimes you can say something very clearly, concisely, without any attitude, but just very straightforward, and it's like, oh my gosh, that was so cold, and I think you do have to develop some comfort

around your boundaries. Are not going to be appealing to everyone. You know, me saying things to people like hey, my deadline for this is March fifteenth, that's not going to be appealing to the person who doesn't want to meet the deadline. That's going to sound very mean. So I can say it with a smile, I can, you know, I can send it an email at whatever, But if they want to perceive that as me, it will be

mean and there's nothing I can do about that. I just know what needs to happen on this particular day. And so a lot of the work that I personally had to do with boundaries is really being less concerned with the reaction of others, because that is the part that used to get me like, oh my gosh, am

I mean? And then I would go through this whole list of all of the nice things I've done for this person and all of the ways that I'm nice and all of these things, and then it would be like, well, doing this one thing that they really wanted to, you know,

push back one. And sometimes, you know, it was something as simple as you know, I use an example in the book of in College, Like, you know, when you're in college and you're around your peers, you're sharing a lot of resources, so it's like your car is my car, my hat is your hat, like all of this sort

of stuff. You're sharing resources. And sometimes I wasn't in a position to share resources, so I would say like, no, you can't borrow my car to dare or something like that, and people, oh my gosh, you're being mean, and it's like I have to go to class like is this mean or is this one of those things where it's like you don't like the boundary, and so just the confusion of what's mean what's nice? That part can really catch you up because now my criteria for me is,

am I harming someone? Did I say something in a tone that was aggress I said? Did I make any derogatory comments? Did I use profanity? Did I tell them in a place that was in approach? So all of these things. So if I'm making a statement and someone doesn't like it, that is not necessarily mean. That is just them not liking the statement. When new laws come about, hey everybody has to wear a mask, or some are we oh my gosh, this is so mean. Yeah, there

are people who think that's mean. But it's like is that mean or is that a boundary of safety? So it's like what are we arguing about here? Like, this is still what I need to tell you, and you don't necessarily have to listen to it, but it would

be really helpful if you did it. Yeah, I mean, some of this is I know, at an intellectual level, is true, but it can be really hard sometimes when people, you know, I get a lot of like fan mail, you know, as I know you do of mail people just saying and the email starts off hey, we should be friends, you know, that's how it starts off, or like, you know, hey, we you know, we have so much

in common, let's put something on the calendar. And now those are trigger words for me because it feels like they want my time, you know, without asking me, without asking me if I want to consent to it. It's you know, the way that that's worded is like, hey, we should be friends, or when can we put it on the calendar, as opposed to, hey, do you have time? Are you do you even want to talk to me? You know, do I have any choice in the matter.

So I've been trying to learn how to respond to those kinds of re quests because I know that there they don't they mean well, I don't think they're you know, I don't think they're bad people, and and I'm and it's flattering, you know that someone thinks, you know, we should be friends, is you know, okay, it's it's it's

not a bad thing. But I'm trying to learn how to respond at in a way that respects me and boundary, which is, well, no, no one's entitled to my time, you know, And even almost saying that sentence makes me feel like a little guilty, you know, so, so how does one kind of get past that that guilt? I think in the in the case of emails, what I found helpful is to have a template for different ways

of saying no per request. So if it's for a meeting that you can't do, having that template, if it's for a pick your brain session that you can't have, Oh yes, hey, I have a quick question, but the question is really like an hour of your time, you know, just those sort of things. I think it makes sense to just have a template that says, you know, thank you for contacting me. I saw your request. It was

really nice. However, I'm not taking meetings at this time because of other engage that I have, but thank you so much. Continue to follow my journey and listen to the podcast right well, you know whatever that is because other people don't know what we have going on. And that's something I've had to realize. Like I used to be like, why are all these people doing? And it's like, you know what, they don't know what I'm doing. That's true, they have no clue what by you know, what my

family life is, like, what my work schedule is. Sometimes they're not even in the same country on the same time zone when they're sending me these emails that I might say, Oh my god, it's like, this is all my responsibility to really manage this boundary, and sometimes depending on what those things are, I just can't respond. I

have some boundaries that I put up on Instagram. It's about twelve things, and you know, I kind of go through, you know, like you know what you might see on this page age, and what to expect, what I can do,

what I can't do, and all of that stuff. People still request those things of me, but I've already put it out there that you know, if you're sending me a DM message and it's very detailed about your life and it sounds like something that would be best talked about with your own therapists, I cannot respond to that

one Instagram. It's not me being me. It is me saying that this is a clinical issue, and I am a licensed therapist and I cannot interact with you in this sort of way because this is not the setting. I am not your therapist. If I were, I still couldn't interact with you based on my licensing. So there are so many things, so just being you know, really clear with people about you know, these are my boundaries. Like I get a lot of emails, and you know, I kind of funnel my emails and if I have time,

I'll look at them. But you know, I like to read, and I like to watch TV, and I like to record my podcasts and see clients, and sometimes in doing all of those things, I may not have time to have, you know, meetings and pick your brain sessions and that sort of thing. One thing I found helpful, though, especially for the pick your brains, is to refer people to someone because what I've noticed, people will continuously send me the same email. Hey I reached out to you last week.

Hey it's two days later, I haven't heard. And I'm like, here's a person who does this for a living, because that's I feel like coaching is separate from what I do. But here is a coach who loves to talk about helping people build practices or helping people establish an Instagram presence. Well, you know that's wonderful, and I've been doing I've been doing that as well. I have an assistant finally after many years, who helps me. I trust me, I needed one.

She really helps me. I'll like forward the email to my assistant and say, please kindly respond and give them help them however you can. But you know, just like, do you ever, like in your own head, like ever think things that like you would never say to someone, but like, you know, I'll be honest. Sometimes some people like like a day later, if I don't respond, I'm like, hey, why don't you respond to my email yesterday? In my head,

I curse at them. I'm being I'm being straight up on I'm being straight up honest because I believe vulnerability is really important. But in my head, I'm like mother, like like really like really like one day you you're that entitled in my time that like only one day has passed in't haven't responded. And they said, you know that's not cool. You didn't respond my email yesterday. And my initial reaction I was like I want to respond like okay you mother, blah blah blah blah. You know,

go beat yourself now. But that's all in my head. Now, I would never say that to someone because I believe in kindness. I believe in kindness. But do you ever do you ever like immediately kind of is that normal? Is that a normal? Sort of like reaction in mine assholes for such thoughts. No, you're not an asshole. I think the same thoughts. I do get some emails that or dms. I would say dms that sometimes I have

to process. I've gotten a few emails, but for me, it's mostly dms where I'm like, WHOA the level of audacity that this person has taken where it's just like, you know, sometimes when people people will send me a mess say hey, I DMD you last week and you didn't respond? Are you too busy to pay attention to people? It's like, can you please look at how many dms I get? First off? Can I have some social media boundaries where I don't want to be on this platform

all day answering dms. I do respond to some of them, but you know, it could have been a topic that I'm not at liberty to discuss with you because I'm

not your therapist. And I think sometimes people may feel like because I am a therapist, that there is this open like I could ask anything at any time and this person has to give me an answer, and so right, it's not my job to fulfill that request for people, because I know that you know my role on Instagram is to give information to a vast amount of people

and not to focus on five people. Right, So it's like I'm not trying to create like some situation where my time is spent like on these five people daily. It's like, no, I want to be able to create

information for people in masses. Yeah. And the hardest one is when people say do play the guilt, Like they intentionally try to make you feel guilty, so they'll say, like, you know, it activates my Jewish my mother's Jewish guilt, you know in my head, you know, whenever someone says to me like, oh, you say in public, you come across as such a nice guy in public. Now I see what you're now, I see what you're really like, you know, like that that's the work that triggers me,

Like I'm triggered trigger trick, you know what I'm saying. Like, So I'm trying to like get over that and just remind myself, look, Scott, like to be you can be a nice person and not give yourself up so much that you could get burnout and then you no longer have any will to live? Are you? Aren't you allowed

to like enjoy your life a little bit? Yeah? Yeah, I saw this weird movie once and I didn't really understand it while I was watching it, but after it I understood it as kind of a parallel to what therapists and influencers probably feel on Instagram, and they can give it to it or not. It's a movie and I cannot think of this guy's name, but it's with Jennifer from I can't even remember the whole thing, but this guy, he becomes popular, and the more popular he becomes,

the less of himself that his girlfriend knew of. As you know, he becomes like this big figure and all of these people start to worship him, and he just becomes mean and they have to give him like their souls, and it just was a weird movie. And I was like, what is this movie about? And then I got home and I was like, this is the beast that we can feed if we want to. Like this, it became his whole life. He was consumed by this concept of

what people created for him. And she was like, I don't know what you're doing here, Like this is too much. This is not what we signed up for. And I thought of it, like, if you really give yourself to social media, that's what it will be for you. You will have no life outside of that. And I realized that that's just not healthy. It's not healthy to answer every message that you It's not healthy to pick my

brain sessions in all of those things. Like you have to figure out what's healthy for you because sometimes other people do not know that line you do. Yeah, so true. Now, was this the movie where he's like a poet and all these people like make their way into his house and then there's like there's like a fire. There's like a fire again. Yeah, you know, I saw that movie, and that movie that like gave me nightmares for like

two weeks. I'm still so weird. Yeah, it was. It was one of it was literally it was one of the weirdest movies I think I've ever seen in my entire life. Yeah, I agree, And I kept thinking what could this mean? And the only thing I could I could liken it too, was like he really gave into his art, like he became the art. Yes, and it was like it was dangerous to him, it was dangerous to all the people around him. It was dangerous to

the people who were worshiping him, like he has zero boundaries. Yeah, they started coming to his house and then he has like a bit, then he has like a baby or something. He has like a baby, and then his wife people. Yeah, he gets the baby people and the wife like gets killed or goes away or something. It was so weird thinking about the scene where he is the babila and it's like, I need to not think about that right now. Yeah,

it was like he gave them everything. That was like, oh my gosh, like, is this movie about like unhealthy boundaries. I think you're right. I think you're right. I think it's a really brilliant insight. I think it's a really brilliant insight. Yeah, because I didn't know what to make of that movie and now I do, so thank you. Maybe that'll stop the nightmare. But yeah, I think that's what happens, Like you give everything to it, and it's like that is not healthy. It's possible, and it's like

you don't want anybody to like take your baby. That's right, that's exactly right. Was well, you know, you talk in the book about the costs. I mean, have a whole chapter on the cost of not having healthy boundaries, and that what we're talking about. You know, and you also burnout being a big cost being a big one. But then you also to talk about the benefits of setting boundaries, and I like those. I'd rather talk about the benefits.

You say, sleep better, experience, less burnout, healthy relationships, less stress. I was like, sign me up, sign me up, feel more joyful, benefit from the short and long term value of setting them. I mean Devil's advocate for a second. Someone who's like a chronic people pleaser might read that and be like, well, that all seems so selfish. You know, what do you say to someone like that? You know

says that, Yeah, I get that. Sometimes, you know again on Instagram, the comments will be like this is the meanest thing I've ever heard. It's like, you know, tell your friend that you're you know, not able to talk right now, but you'll call them back later. And I'm sure it's like the people please are saying like this is the worst thing you could say to a person, and it's like that you'll call them back like that's the worst thing you could say. You know, like I've

been cussed out by a stranger before. I used to work in a detox facility. I U should have seen the way I was cussed out over cigarette brakes that I think was pretty mean. I don't think saying to someone, hey, I'll call you back later is the worst thing ever. But when you are a chronic people please or saying anything to anyone just seems like, oh my gosh. And I used to be there. I used to be a people pleaser where it was like what would they do?

What will they say? Maybe I should lower the boundary? How do I say this in a whisper so they don't really hear me and have to, you know, really do what I'm asking, like all of that sort of stuff. But it did leave me burnt out. It left me very frustrated, It left me resentful, and a host of other things. You know, we know that mental health impacts your physical health. We know that mental health impacts so

many things in our lives. I mean just so many somatic things, like you know, if your mental health is not in the right place, you get sicker, easier, you get you know, like all of these things. But yet when it comes to really advocating for ourselves, it's like there must be some easier way other than setting a boundary. It's like, what's the easier alternative? It's like, build a new person. I don't know, like, there really isn't an

alternative to hey, I cannot babysit your kids today. The alternative is to do it and to be frustrated that this person has asked you this in the middle of you having to do something else. That's the alternative frustration. Oh boy, this really hits home. You know. You wrote like you know signs that you need to start saying boundaries, and one was that one was like you you dream of just getting away and just quitting everything. I have

that fantasy all the time. Can I admit that? Allow to admit that I have that fantasy all like just like being like, you know what I'm I changed? Hey, everyone Scott changed careers. He's done, He's done. Yeah. Yeah, but that's not health beach. Oh that sounds nice. Oh that sounds don't don't don't put ideas in my head. Don't put ideas in my head. Well, I think a

little bit of fantasy is okay. But I think if your go to is just to not be here daily, you wake up dreading your life and dreading your day, dreading in our acting with people. Yeah, getting I mean, just like, oh my gosh, if I just disappeared today like that like living in that fantasy of life. Yeah, that's not healthy because you can create a new reality and it does have to be one that you want to escape from and one that you want to leave.

It can be one that you actually enjoy. And a lot of that word is you figuring out in which areas do you need the boundaries? Like you know, when you mentioned email, is it like I'm going to stop checking my email because people keep emailing these things? Or is it I need an assistant to check my emails or I need to delete these types of emails when they come. Like what are what are the boundaries that you can put in place without saying I can never

look at my email again. Well, I don't know if that's a solution, but perhaps there are some other things that could be done. So this process is less chaotic and frustrating for you because you know, I think it's something that has to be done. But do you have to do it? No, you have an assistant now you know you don't have to do it. Absolutely, So do you want to be my first guest on the Coconut podcast?

Since I'm changing my career, you don't have to dance that you don't have to dance that, right, what are the no, absolutely agree with you, And I mean I still I still love helping people. And that's the dilemma, that's the real dilemmas, because I love helping people. But I have to come to terms with the fact that I can't save the world. And that's it. That's just what I have to realize. It's a it's and just

accepting that, you know. Like I'm looking out the window right now, I'm seeing a homeless person dancing and screaming and they're clearly not in contact with the reality right now, and my heart, like I just want to run out there and save this person's life, you know, and I need to, Like I'm trying to learn how to like overcook because I'm such a sensitive person, you know, Like how can I like not take on everyone's pain, you know?

And I can't be alone in this, you know. Yeah, I think that is the the heart of the helper, right to want to help every everything and everybody that we do feel like I can do it all. I can help everyone, and I you know, I dealt with that.

I have a private practice, and I certainly used to have Oh my gosh, so many clients, like I used to see clients at six eight m to five pm, like so many people, and it just got to a point where I'm like, I can't do this, Like there has to be other therapists in the world who can help people. It can't it can't be me, Like, you know, I don't want to wake up with a headache, Like this is not a healthy way of existing. I can't

help people with every single issue. And I've had people get upset with me, like you know, I've had people who say, you know, I'm you know, I'm coming off whatever drug and I really want to work with you, and I'm like, I'm not a substance abuse counselor. I don't feel comfortable helping people who are coming off certain drugs because there is a medical thing that I would

need to know it. I don't know that. And so it's not about us being you know, like intertwined, you know, like, oh we think the same and this sort of thing. It's like to me, it's like a health thing, and so I can't you know, I literally cannot help you in good conscience because I'm not sure if I will actually be helpful, Like you need to find somebody who

could be really helpful for you. And that's where, you know, it makes me more comfortable knowing that there are just certain things I can't do, even with the you know, the people who say can you mentor me? Can you pick? You know, there are certain capacities that I don't have. Like I think, if you're going to step into those things, you should be serious about it and you should have some protocol and experience, and it's like I don't. So I feel really comfortable saying I cannot help you here

because I literally don't have the tools. This is my lane right here, and that is what I'm operating in. I love that. And also just sometimes even if you are the right person for the job, there's just so much of you, you know, Like I had just such a law I took basically, I took on too many clients and last week, you know, I just was wiped out like I've never been in my entire life. There was just too many. It was. It was that six am to five pm for four street days, you know.

And I'm learning about myself that well, I I have limits. I need I mean, I need to kind of I'm not super Man, you know. Yeah, yeah, you know, I'm more Spider Man without the without the hand web thing. So I want to try to press the thing and it doesn't come out anyway. That was a bad analogy. But the point is I'm grasping to help everyone. But it's just I have I have limits, and you know, I think therapists, Uh, can we just give some love to therapists right now? Can we just do that? Can

we just do that? You know a lot of people are suffering now. But you know, God bless therapists for taking on so much, so many people are suffering right now and giving so much of their time, you know, to that during this global pandemic. You know, but they're

human too, you know, they're human too. Yeah. I had to make a decision, you know, about a year or so to go to not take any more clients because things where I started writing a book, I started you know, doing some content creator like doing a bunch of stuff, and I was just like, I don't have the space to have the clients that I already have, which is fool and take new people. Like when you get to

a point where you can't even see people regularly. I think I'm doing a disservice, So like I'm like, I don't know when I can see you again. That's what my schedule looks like because I'm already committed to these things, and so for me, it's just a matter of like that is the boundary. My schedule is the boundary. Like if I add you somewhere else, that's taken away from my family time, and that's not fair. If I add you on this schedule, that's taken from taken away from

a client who already needs my services. So just being really aware of what I'm already doing before adding more. Yeah, I think before it was just like people want to see you keep taking them, you keep taking them, And then it got to a point where it's like I my clients couldn't get an appointment. It's like, oh my gosh, I've been trying to get on your schedule for a month.

I'm like, this is not you need weekly therapy. So I need to have some limits so that I can serve you properly and that you know that is what's fair to you. Like you need weekly therapy, you don't need monthly therapy. And so that is an indicator for me that I need to cut back. Yeah, I'm so glad that you did that fear on self care and

as well as helping others better. Do you you still take your you still take clients, not new clients, but you still see your older clients, you know, your regular Yes, yes, I still see some of my older clients and people who come back. So if you see me anytime in the past, people, you know, people show up five years later. So I still see some of those people. Yeah. So I'm like with clients, I'm full. So like I you know,

there's there's really no space for more clients. But you know, I think the beautiful thing is I have a group practice and so there are eight are the therapists who

these people can see. And that was really important for me to create a space that I know these other people and how they practice, and so I am turning them over to you know, great people to say, you know, this person is able to help you in this way, and I trust that they can do that because I realize that I can't be the person seeing everyone just because I discover other things that I like to do, and so to have room for those things, I do

have to cut back in some areas. I love that so what are the six types of Are there six types of boundaries? Is that true? Yes? Are you're gonna? I don't know them by heart? Let me think. I love that people do that too, they ask me questions for my book. Intellectual, physical? What are the other three? I don't I don't remember off the top of my head either. Yes, I mean, look, I feel better that I don't have no he the top head if you don't know the top. But look, we got three out there,

we have three. Gosh, let's see here. We'll come back to this question. Okay, Yes, So I feel like with that chapter, what I was doing is kind of breaking out the different areas in which we can have boundaries, because so often we only think of like one type of boundaries. So here we go, sexual, intellectual, physical, emotional, time, and material. Yes, those are the six, and so I think those are the key areas where we need boundaries. And so often we forget that there is more than

one way to have a boundary. We think like the only way to have a boundary is to say no to someone, and that's just one way to have a boundary. And it's important to remember that in multiple areas of your life. You can have boundaries. You can have boundaries

with your physical space. You can have like you mentioned with the email, boundaries with your time, boundaries with your possessions, those material things, so when people are, you know, taking your things and not returning them, like, those are all boundaries you can have. And what I really love about the book is for all of those I have examples of all of those things, and I have these very clear scripts of what to say when a boundary is violated, how to you know what to say or what to

do when a boundary is violated. But I think it's important that people have as much information possible. I feel like there was so much information putting into the book. And it's so funny because I think the chapter you mentioned is the first first three. I think that's like chapter three maybe, And it's so interesting because that is the first part that I wrote, and I feel like

those later chapters I read a bit more of. I don't know if you felt like that when you when you wrote your book, but that wasn't in the proposal, so it was like, oh, I wrote that like two years ago, and the rest of the stuff is like newer and fresher. It's like, oh, yeah, oh definitely, But still like the whole book once it comes out is not fresh anymore. Like people don't know that. People don't

know that. They stick you on like a thousand podcasts, and then you're like supposed to still like be excited about your book. So in chapter four when you said the sentences of so, it's like I said that, what did it say? I don't know what I meant? Can you give me context? It's true, it's true. The boundary is give me context. Yeah, yeah, it's so true. Yeah,

it's so true. Is it? Because you put your heart and soul into something for years and then it's like a year production process, you know, til it finally comes out and then you're like, oh, oh, yeah, I wrote that book. That's right. I will say that it was really helpful about a month ago to do the audio book. But again, I feel like those later chapters are fresher in my head at the the beginning chapter. So ask me about chapter fourteen. No, I know, I know. I'm like,

that's the last part I've met I mean Iria. And it's always interesting because I think of this with like singers, I'm like, how do they remember all of these songs. How do they remember like the lyrics to all of these things, like and can sing it over and over, Like I would just be like, I am not singing

this song anymore, I know. I mean, I can't even I can't like yeah, I mean I've gone to many concerts where like people like sing the you know, blah blah, and the people they'll be like, I'm not gonna sing that anymore. I'm done. I'm done with that song. I've seen that in concerts before, where the singer was like, no more, hey Jude, no more hate Jude. It's like

I don't ever want to sing it again. But yeah, I think that's a that's an interesting reaction to writing a book, Like you wrote it and you're like, Okay, I'm done. You're not done, you're just starting. Yeah, and you have to continue to talk about it and it's very like I wrote it yesterday sort of way. So yeah, So it's become a whole thing, the whole tour, and you know everything, well, you've you know, you've really built up such an amazing following. I think you've over perhaps

over eighty thousand Instagram followers. Am I making that up? I feel like something eight hundred, eight hundred thousand, eight hundred thousand, Is that right? I mean, yes, Holy mother, Like, okay, now that's that's like I've got six thousand. Okay, you know, but look, I mean that is just amazing and and it's quality content. You know. So there's some other people I see with eight hundred thousand where I'm like, I don't know about that person's what those fans are seeing

in that person. But with you, I see what they're seeing in you. So it's it's so, I mean, I have my ideas of why it's it's it strikes such a nerve, But but what do you think it is? Like, what do you think it is? You know? I part of it is I don't think I sugarcoat stuff. I just kind of like put it out there, like you know, if your parents weren't here for you, you you probably feel this and that this is based off of you know,

of course, my professional work. Things I've experienced, things I've you know, witnessed other people experience, and I think the the this it's it's so real and it's like a gut punch that people are like, you know, I always get the comment of are you in my head? And I'm like, no, but I am in mind. I am constantly in the heads of you know, twenty people a week, you know, So I'm like, yeah, I get it. I

hear that. And so often as therapists, we don't do as much talking as we do listening, and so I'm you know, I have some ideas about what's happening and why it's happening, and some of that is just for me to keep to myself, and some of it is for me to share. And this is just a really big way of me being able to share it because everybody won't go to therapy, whether it's you know, a financial barrier or just you know, some stigma attached to

it availability, all these sorts of reasons. But I think a lot of the tools are still very helpful and when people see things in a certain way, especially you know, I post a lot about family relationships, and we don't get that much information on dysfunctional families, to the point where people feel like they are the only person in the world with an alcoholic parent, they are the only person in the world who experience emotional neglect because nobody

talks about it. When in actuality is probably fifty percent of your classroom, right, it's like no one's talking about it. And so because I'm putting words to that and people are seeing it, it's like, oh my gosh, like there's more than one of us, like you're one. And then you see these likes and it's like, oh my gosh, like all of these people identify. It's like yes, yes, there's so many people with you know, these these very common things that we don't talk about. So so true.

That's you know, that's what I was going to say. You're you're kind of so relatable to common human uh, common human needs that are that a lot of us that's going unfulfilled in a lot of us. I want to just return to your book a second. With this particular point, you talk about the terms between porous boundaries and rigid boundaries. Can you elaborate what the difference is there? So porest boundaries are basically passive boundaries, meaning you don't

really have any right. So people are doing all of these things and it's just happening. Maybe you have an idea of what could or should happen, but you're not clearly stating anything, so people are having their way with you. Rigid boundaries are building walls and being really aggressive in our attempt to set boundaries. So it could be I

never let people come over my house. It's like, oh, I bet never ever, or do you want people to come over that you enjoy spending time with, Like that would be the healthy boundary, and then you know, the poorest boundary would be having no boundaries on who can come over when and how they use your stuff and those sorts of things, and so right in the middle there is healthy and with rigid it's just the extreme of never ever people can't be trusted, and with poors

it is the other extreme of always do whatever you like. Yes, because you could see someone going from like a people pleaser to like no more mister nice guy and become like an just like go to extreme extreme opposite. And I don't think you advocate for any extremes. You advocate for healthy balance, is what I'm mean. Yeah, yeah, And I think our boundaries are going to be different in relationships with different people because all the relationships don't require

the same level of boundaries. Like you may come over my house and naturally take your shoes off. It's nothing I have to say to you, But for this other person I have to say to them, Hey, when you come in, can you take your shoes off? So these are going to be different boundaries. But maybe the boundary I have with you is, hey, can you stop yelling at my ear? I don't know, but have I been doing that for No? No, not at all? No no, no, no, not at all. But I think it's going to be

different for everyone. And so sometimes with rigid boundaries, we like to place the boundaries across the board. I never give people battle water, and it's like, not even not even your grandmother who's appeared like, come on, have some flexibility here. So it's it's not an ever, it's not always, it's more of a sometimes depending on the person, I could see what could happen sort of thing. Good good,

I like that. But but something that you argue is very important is to uh, not only communicate your boundary, but you enforce it. You enforce it through action. Can you give our listeners an example of what that would look like and why that action piece is so important? Yeah. So if you say to someone I will be able to help you plan your party, I think you have to really not help them plan their party, Like if you jump in and start planning. You didn't really set

a boundary. You just said something and then you renegno what you actually said. So in the future, if this person has a request, they can continue to ask this thing and expect that you'll do it. I meant my kid, my daughter did that this morning. I mean, she was like, can I have a lollipop? Can I have a lollipop? Can I have a lollipop? If you give me a lollipop,

I'll stop asking for a lollipop? And I said, okay, here, here's a lot of play, you know, so she knows that I really don't have a boundary on this lollipop, which has been proven thousands of times with these lollipops. But today I got rid of the lollipops, so she can't ask me. I was gonna I was going to ask for yeah. But I think it's the same way with adults. They know that if they continue to ask that you'll give the in and so if you really want it to be a no, you have to say

no and like really stop. And sometimes we have to deal with the consequence of the other person's behavior, Like with a kid, they're likely have a tantrum, like so their manipulation strategy is like, oh, I can't have it. I'll fall out right here. And most you know, most of the time you're like, oh my gosh, let me just do it. But you know, there are those occasions when you're like, you know what, hey, your tantrum, I'm

still not going to do it. And adults have tantrums too, you know, whether it's they hang up on you, they don't call you back, they yell, they you know, sometimes they cry and kick, just like you know, just like kids sometimes. So you know, you have to decide how to deal with the consequence of you know, their behavior. Do you give into it. Do you give them the lollipop or say yes to the thing they're requesting, or do you say no, I'm gonna hold to my boundary.

I really don't want to do this. Good. Good, you were really you're you're really like outlining all the steps here, and there's one final step I'd like to talk about because I thought it was so valuable when I was

reading your book, and that was depersonalization. You know, it's so easy to take to take it personally and think you're responsible, you know, when you say no, and then let's say, something bad happens to that person, right, How do you not think to yourself that you were somehow like, oh, I could have done different, you know, I could have said yes and be in their life better. Instead I said no, and then they went off and they did this and that, and then that happened, and that happened,

chain of events. How can you depersonalize some of this not own other people outcomes? I think sometimes we feel like we have this med magical power to dictate how things will turn out, and we really don't. We can't determine what will happen to a person. If we say no, what will happen to a person? We're not able to do things for them. And I find that the most personalizing people are the people who are codependent, the people who are enmeshed, and people who come from abusive backgrounds.

Because you have been taught that if you don't say yes to this, this person will not be able to do it without you. If you don't say yes to this, this person will you know, they'll go and you know, maybe use drugs or hurt somebody else or do all these other things because you didn't save them. And really, we don't have that power over people. And our no should not determine if somebody is willing to save their own life. Our no should not determine if they become

destructive or not. Right. Yeah, these are not things that we are responsible for, even when we feel like we are. It's not true. This is a that's a hard pill for a lot of people to swallow if they're so used to thinking differently about it. So this book, uh, this book can really change a lot of people's lives. Yeah, well, thank you, Nedra. And I also want to point out that I pronounced her name correctly on the first tray.

Yes you did, Yes, you did. Great job. Funny story when I lived with my mom and I would give my phone number out to people. If someone called and mispronounced my name, she'd be like, oh, she doesn't live here. And I would be like this so and so called and so and so called. She's like no, no, no, And then I see the person he's like, yeah, I called your house. Who did you ask for I asked for Nedrum turn it. My mother would tell me if you call, because she would say, you didn't ask for me.

She's like nope, no, no her, that's her boundary. That's that's her boundary, right, she's like, pronounce my baby name correctly or okay, girl, like please give them a few chances. That's a rigid that's a rigid boundary. Yeah. Oh man, Well, thank you so much for this wonderful interview today. And let's let's give a you know, a shout out to to uh, to both of our mutual editors, Mary Anne. Let's see. Yes, she's a wonderful editor and I know that, like she would be giddy to hear that we both

gave her a shout out on the podcast. So let's let's do that for a second. Yeah, she is. She is amazing and nice and really enthused about the work. Like she really likes the work of what we're doing. Like she was right away like, oh, you should be on this podcast, like his work is, Like she really likes what we're doing. It's not just a job. It

is certainly a passion. Agreed. Agreed, sy'all in this interview like I do with lots of guests, with reading one of my favorite quotes from their book, so you said, set your boundaries knowing that you are improving your life, not harming others. Thank you so much. For coming on my podcast today and I wish you all the best with the rest of your book tour. Thank you, thanks

for listening to this episode of The Psychology Podcast. If you'd like to react in some way to something you heard, I encourage you to join in on the discussion at the Psychology podcast dot com. That's the Psychology podcast dot com. Thanks for being such a great supporter of the show, and tune in next time for more on the mind, brain, behavior, and creativity.