Neal Brennan || The Mind of Neal Brennan

cult movie classic Half Bait. Neil received three Emmy nominations for Chappelle's Show, one for directing and the other two for writing and producing. He has also performed stand up on Last Call with Carson Dally, Late Night with Jimmy, Fallon Lopez Tonight, and Conan. Recently, his comedy special called Blocks was released on Netflix. In this episode, I talked to Neil Brennan about his comedy and upbringing. As early as eight years old, Neil has been interested in comedy

for its fairness. He reveals who his early influences were and what it was like working with Dave Chappelle. In this episode, I also gave Neil some impromptu psychological tests to help us both understand more about his unique mind. We also touch on the topics of relationships, mindfulness, cognitive distortions, and neurodiversity. This was a really fun episode. It was great chatting with Neil. I really like his comedy, but

I also really like his humanity and his vulnerability. When I watched his Netflix special, I was especially touched by his journey to overcome depression, and I reached out to him because I really wanted to help him. I hope you enjoyed this episode. So without further ado, I'll bring you Neil Brennan. Mister Neil, how you doing good. I'm doing pretty good. I'm doing pretty good. As you know.

I saw your recent Netflix special Blocks and was really deeply touched by it, and you know, I'm like laughing so hard for like three fourths of it, and then you know, you get really real, you know, and the whole sort of tone change there at the end, right, and it's like I went from like to like oh shit, you know, like what the fuck I'm a therapist and

this is upsetting. Yeah no, but I mean talk about, you know, being able to manipulate your viewer's emotions, right, like to kind of really you know, I really empathized for you, and so I really appreciate talking today, and I don't want to just jump into the deep end. I was hoping we could kind of start and to trace kind of like the development of Neil Brennan and go back as early as possible. I know you said at one point that you've kind of felt like an

odd ball your entire life. Is that as early as you can remember that you've kind of felt that way. I think, looking back, I always think I felt like an odd ball and felt like this is not a good system. That was always the feeling I had where I was like it born into my family and I was always kind of like, this doesn't seem to be right even I have like I have a tiny sample size, and this seems like incorrect somehow. It's a public school. No, no,

I'm not talking about school. I'm talking about my family. Oh they're talking about like being three or four, gotcha? Gotcha? Yeah, okay, and being like this doesn't seem like the best way to go about whatever we're trying to do here. So I used to cry like all the time, like like ill, every they made it, there was a joke like that I had a streak going where I cried every day and then they would like make they'd go like, we're

gonna make you cry. If we don't, you didn't, you didn't know, you didn't cry today, we gotta make your crect. It was just cold. I'm one of ten kids. I don't know if that's clear. I was gonna bring that up, actually, so yeah, let me like, let me lay the pipe, let me lay, let me lay it out a little bit. My parents were born in nineteen thirty. That's my dad. He's one of thirteen. He had a twin my dad, and the twin died, and prior to his death, my

grandmother was very proud of her twins. And then my dad's twin died and my grandmother, in true Catholic Irish Catholic form, said I'll never be proud of anything again as long as I live. Like God had punished her. So I think she took it out of my dad, and then he carried that with him and my mom's mom. My mom was born in thirty three to a family of four, and her mom died when she was like a toddler. And back then there was no They didn't

even pretend men could raise kids on their own. So my mother and her sisters were all split up, and so she kind of came from from that. So my parents met and tried to make a go of it, and neither of them were from especially as evidenced by Sea above what I just said, not from very solid foundations, and I I think they were like, well, if we keep having kids, maybe it'll be it'll get better. And they were Catholics, so they had to keep having kids

and it just was chaos. You know, it was chaos headed by two people who didn't know a ton about how to do it. And I was the youngest. Yeah, so you're the youngest. And I have actually been wondering to what extent you felt like you had to, because there's all the psychological research that when you're in a big family like that, you can kind of feel a sense of like you need to compete to like, for

attention and things like that. And I don't know if that similar feelings you feel in the comedy field you know today, you know, stem somewhat from some of those early kind of things. I'm competitive for sure. I mean I want to be good at my job. I want to be high status like, you know, I think that's any human being or most human beings. I mean, I have another brothers who's a comedian, So a fifth of my family, a fifth of ten people are comedians, so

something there's got to be something there. But there's all so something about like I don't know where's funny. So in terms of like psychologically what am I doing? Obviously I like the approval, I like the attention, and but there's also a big part of me that wants comedy to be more of like I want it to be more cohesion and more camaraderie and more of a like, we're all in this together kind of thing, which I get disappointed when it's not. I don't know if it's

a contradiction contradiction exactly, but maybe. And and also, comedy is fair. That's the thing I like about comedy is it's like it's fair. There's not there's some level of arbitrariness to it. But for the most part, if you have a good premise and you write it well and you perform it well, it's gonna work. You know, you grew up my father was an alcoholic, and that's not fair. It's entirely random and arbitrary. So so that's the that's the that's my That's the thing I like about comedy

is it's like this shit's fair. It just he does seem like a lot of comedy is is bound up about being true about not suffering, but maybe like common suffering. Everyone can kind of resonate with something you just don't tend to find that. The best or the most poper comedians are like that that super positive happiness persona, you know, like I'm just like going up in the stage and be like everyone you know, like, but so let's all be happy. It's not useful. That's separate. It's that's a

separate genre. That's that's hallmark, you know. That's not what comedy's for. Comedy is for Like I mean, people say, like the job of the comedian. I love when people say the job of the comedian because I've been in comedy for thirty years. I've never heard what the job is. The world is telling us all one thing right, and it's not true. It's just the world is lying and or manipulating us, and comedy gives us a chance to

be like, may I give my rebuttal marriage? Marriage? May I speak quickly or like men and women women, can I say something very quickly? Or religion, do you mind if I you know, with all due respect, dogs, you know, or whatever your thing is. So being optimistic and positive about it is not not it wouldn't be. I mean, there is a way to do comedy that's very positive, but it's in some ways it's still negative. Yeah. No,

I completely agree. I mean there's something inherently funnier about like if I came up and the first thing and I was like, hey, when I got some news for you, like we're all not gonna be okay, you know, there's something somehow funnier about that than like just come out Mark Mark Maren has one of the greatest jokes. I can't believe how great a joke it is. He said, he's been doing it recently. He said, Look, I don't I don't want to seem negative, but I don't think

anything's ever gonna get better ever again. Yeah, And there's something funny about that in that context. It crush it. But he's talking about society. He's talking about like the earth. Yeah, and it's so broad. Yeah, and it should be like, you know, feel people going like the fuck is wrong? With this guy. But it's so true that people have to laugh. No, I hear you. I'd like to just stay on your childhood for a little bit longer because I'm am a psychologist. So I was wondering, like what

when were you? When did you first discover you were funny? Like I remember personally, you know, I was sent to attention a lot because I was just making the kids laugh because like I was in special ed and like that was like my way of acting out, Like was it was it a way of acting out for you at all? In any way, It's always been an equalizer to me. It's rarely about something else, you know what I mean. It's not like my parents are not getting along so I'm gonna take my dick out at dinner.

It was ever that. It just was never that. It was more about for me. It was more about like logic and like wait, it was more just like if I may. It was always that to me, And and it was like because I felt like the system that I was I found myself in was was like broken and just like this is wrong. It was always that. It was always like hmmm, it's the face I make in the blocks fro I'm like a friend of mine calls it Neil Brennan face where it's like it's like

the fuck, but it's always been that. But teachers loved you. Teachers did like me. I mean when I tried, the problem was I uh, I wish I could go to school now, like I read all the time. I'm studious and I'm intelligent and stuff and like, but I was not then. I just was too disorganized, I think emotionally. Can you give me any examples, like do you have memories in your head of being like five, six, seven

years old and making everyone laugh around you? Yeah? I remember getting a lap that was so big I was embarrassed and I was probably eight nine. Maybe do you remember what the joke was. I just did an impression of somebody and it was like it was it just crushed. So yeah, who are some of your earliest comedic influences.

Brian Reagan. I've never heard Brian Reagan. I saw Brian Reagan like kill and because my brother's comedian, I got to go to the comedy clubs when I was in high school, and I saw Brian Reagan at the Improv in probably nineteen eighty eight and killing incredibly funny. I mean, so prior Carlin, those kinds of guys didn't really they didn't really move me until I was, you know, in my twenties. But Bill Hicks was really big for me. Like I saw him live, I made Chappelle come see

him live in ninety two. David Tel friend of my brothers, Chris Rock really big. I mean in terms of me, I guess I'm like in terms of people who weren't Dave. So yeah. So those would be my early early influences. I guess, yeah, influence is the right word. Hicks would probably be the number one of those. This is great, It is amazing. Is there any other can you think of any other sort of aspects of your odd ball being that you think may have contributed to your comedic genius?

Do you like when I when I describe it as comedic genius? I think there's no other There's no other way to describe it, right, Let's be honest, There's simply no other word for it. Yeah, fud flattery, ego a little bit, you know, for the sake of the cover. You didn't see the show. I don't believe that about myself. I just never feel like huh and I will say

in comedy, I feel like I belong. But there's you know, but there's always in this show, there's an anecdote about people reminded me like not at the level you think, or not at the way you think, and not the and even the thing where I was a writer and all writers thought you seem like more of a comedian. Comedians are like more of a writer, like there's it's it's uh. I don't have a lot of peers in terms of like the my arc, the arc of my career.

I definitely want to get into that more, especially when I give you like a test, as I'm going to give you a test a little bit later. I guess I'm thinking more oddball in the sense of like the neurodiversity movement, like were you ever diagnosed with like ADHD? Or like are you an autism spectrum? No, I've never been diagnosed with any never been diagnosed with anything any and no, and I mean depression obviously, but like ADHD, I don't think I don't have an access of energy.

And I've had a lot of people diagnose me over Instagram in the last week with what with what, which I actually kind of think is fun and funny and you like you reached out. This is the best part of my doing a Netflix special is all the free treatment. What have people been you with? ADHD, autism? Those are the two big ones, autism being the number one answer. Gotcha? Okay. I didn't bring those up necessarily because I thought that they applied to you. Just to be clear, I would

be happy if they did. Someone was. I did Joe Rogan three or four months ago, and a lady was like, you have you are on the spectrum and I was like all right. And she goes take this test and I passed or whatever, and she's like, you are Aspergracy or whatever. And I was like, oh, lady, I'll take it again like I and I passed again. There I'd

be happy. I would be I'd be totally satisfied if there was a very easy explanation and or modality of treatment that I can do to make myself feel differently than how I generally feel happy, like clearly, like the whole show is kind of about that. Yeah, no, I understand, I understand I have some hypotheses, but we get that a little bit later into that. But I wanted to understand and go back to like when you first met Chappelle, you were a doorman, is that right? And you were

like eighteen years old or something. Yes, I was doorman and I was going to NYU Film school. He was eighteen. He had moved from DC to New York to be a comedian. And I moved from Philly to to New York to go to n YU for film school. And uh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah hunh me and mine and we became friends and and kind of we would we would just talk about comedy and movies and stuff, and we felt like, or I certainly I felt like

we could, you know, do something good. So then I started writing for other TV shows and then uh and I would he would. We would talk about jokes for his act, like maybe say this or say that, and then I and then and then we wrote them movie half Baked together, like five years later we were twenty three. Now, look I loved Half Bait, you know. And yeah, you're the right. A still love have Baked? Thank you? Like

I love it now? Right? You know? I love it? No, no, no, no, I'm not saying I didn't like it then, but I feel like I discovered it later in my life. Let me save this. Let me save this first. Oh that's funny. I mean, look, there are here's what I'll say about it. There are sequences and half Baked that you can watch and go, these guys are maybe going to do a great sketch show. That's cool. That would be my take on it. So the seeds that greatness was there in it.

You can see it. Yeah, I think like the sequence where he goes on a date and there's that that the dollars in the corner, and then I think this stuff would Sir Smoke a Lot where Dave's talking to himself in essence, like that was the day where it was like, looking back, we were very like I played Sir Smoke a lot and he was himself and then I was him and he was the smoke a lot. Like it was just very like no one was there

but us. Yeah, I see that. It was just you know what I mean, Like I it became and it was like and then tipped fooge And as you're filming it, I was like, I think I know how to cut this as a as like a as a with John Cutts, but I'm aware that it was like a really tough time for you, Like when that came out and sort of the initial reception and right for like a year or so after it came out was that was not a tough time for you, just a bad just a rejection,

just like a rebuke, you know, and and a setback career wise, because you know, it was kind of like you're on your way and it was kind of sit out. But having said that, I spent a couple of years writing with a guy named Mike Sure, who's a great writer, and we wrote a couple of movies that didn't get made. But it was a fun That was just a fun period for me. But you lost touch with Dave for a little bit after a half bank, right, you lost touch with Dave? Yeah, not like well I didn't have

his number. We just kind of like drifted. We kind of drifted a little. I think there should be half big two in that. They're making it right now. Actually, I just want to say that I want to put that in the universe, and I'm really glad to hear that being made. Apparently they just finished filming. I mean, did you did you write it all for it? You did that? You manifested that. I just manifested that ship. Just now, wait, so did you write you don't even

believe in manifestation? You did it? Wait, now, how do you know I don't believe in manifestations. I'm a scientist because I don't. I think that goes against your Yeah, I think it goes against your So you assume that goes against Anthos. No, I actually believe a lot in certain karma Buddhist principles. But anyway we can. It's a whole other conversation. But no, that's that's amazing. So what

was your contribution to Half Baked two? Nothing? Literally? Nothing? Okay, so you don't even have like a how like nostalgic would that be? For like if you had a walk on scene, you know, like Stephen King does in all his movies. I'm in Half Baked one. I don't know. They just didn't ask interesting. Well, I look forward to seeing that the trauma lost an uncertainty of our world have led many of us task life's biggest questions, such

as who are we? What is our highest purpose? And how do we not only live through but thrive in the wake of tragedy, division and challenges to our fundamental way of living. To help us all address these questions, process what this unique time in human history has meant for us personally and collectively an emerge whole. I've collaborated with my colleague and dear friend, doctor Jordan Feingeld, MD to bring you our forthcoming book. It's called Choose Growth,

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Barnes and Noble, Indie Bound, and all major retailers. If you're in the UK and Commonwealth, you can order now at bookshop dot org dot UK. We truly hope this book helps you grow and thrive and become your best self. Okay, now back to the show. Okay, so you co created and co wrote Chappelle's Show. Some people miss label that. They call it the Chappelle Show, right, like it's Chappelle's Show.

And that was just obviously wildly successful and made a huge cultural I mean, it's part of the cultural consciousness. You know, so much of so many of those skits and things of that nature. Was it season three? Like Dave decided he just was going to leave that? What was that like for you personally? When that show stopped? You didn't even I believe you weren't even notified that it was going to be that he was out. Yes, I was not notified. My focus is on you, So

I'm curious what I was like for you. That was a very, very very bad period of my life. Arguably, I wouldn't even say arguably, I would say it was the worst period of my life. The biggest shock, set back, pain, confusion, anguish, et cetera, et cetera. You know, it was reliant on somebody who changed their mind, and it was sort of it was obviously jarring and obviously like the financial stuff,

that's whatever, fine. It was more about kind of before it where the where I kind of got low balled negotiation wise, and and it just kind of sucked because I felt like I made this big contribution and they manipulated it to where they didn't have to pay me, and Dave kind of supported them in it and just sucked. I'm really sorry to hear that. Yeah, yeah, I mean it just sucks. So yeah, I mean I appreciate it

in some ways. It's not like I didn't. Yeah, just kind of I just felt like devalued and then I would say devalued and then just sort of like basic lifestyle. It was kind of like a death in all honesty, and it was three bad years. I would say emotionally. Were you mad at Deve? Yeah? Yeah. You know, life is so interesting how we can have these like ups and downs. We can like kind of feel like we're on top of the world and then just like boom,

we're like we don't feel that way. I mean, that must have been an incredible feeling those those first couple of years, though, when I mean, I'd love to hear a little bit about, you know, the positive aspect of that. What was that like to be really on top of the world. I mean, that was the most popular comedy show on TV at the time. I believe I was

on Cable, Yeah, on Cable, Yeah, yeah, it was. I mean, the thing I loved about the show and this speaks that thing of like the camaraderie that I'm seeking, And I really love writing with Dave. I really loved directing it. I really loved coming to ideas. I really loved producing.

I loved the sort of tiny the absolute control over this thing, and not control for like control's sake, control because, like I because Half Baked had kind of been like we kind of got mauled because we were so young, we were able to like once we did Chappell's show was more like, I know what our role on the show needs to be, and it's going to be where it's every fabric, every lens, every cast, it's all coming

through us. But I also really always felt very strong connection with Dave creatively from the time we're eighteen, and it was very fun to just argue and come with ideas and improve or reject and all that stuff going both ways. And it came from a very deep I felt like because Dave wasn't that popular, I felt a

a little responsible because he wrote half Big. He asked me to write hap Bike with him, and I feel like, I think, like, psychologically, I feel like I fucked that up for him, even though that's not true, but like feel that way. And there was like an anger to it that was great, you know, like that thing of I'm I'm Davis said in the past like he's never met someone more obsessed with justice than me and obsessed with fairness. So it's a really good It was just

a great outlet. May be spectrum, Oh yeah, logic good man, hmmm, let's do it, because like you're saying some things here, like when you were younger as orl as you can remember, or you were kind of you're probably you know what. I find a lot about people not to the spectrum, because and I love people not to the inspectrum. By the way, I help a lot of kids who are geniuses. That's one of my jobs helping kids. They're called twice exceptional kids. But something about a lot of them is

that they're unintentionally funny because they are no bullshit. You know, they really like to cut all of the fata and they just say, they just say what they perceive. And they also can't stand logical inconsistency. This is something that it sounds like when you were really young that drove you crazy. Yeah. My brain is very organized. Yeah, and if I see a logical and consistently I'll be like what, Yeah, but now you have to call it. You said that.

Now you're saying that like that is a direct contradict and people don't like it. Like that's the thing that people, especially in relationships with women. It's like they don't. I had a woman's fairly recently. I didn't come here to be consistent and it's like, well I did, But that's funny, that's I mean, you know, it's that's kind of funny. Yeah, yeah, no, of course it's funny. Yeah. Human humans aren't. I mean, that's just not what humans are, you know, and you're

kind of we contain multitudes. I mean, that's the funny thing about the that that aphorism, that it's from a Walt Living poem, We contain multitudes. It sounds like it's this lofty thing. He's basically just going, it's the line before it is like, do I contradict myself? Yeah? I contain multitudes? You know what I mean? Like he's like, hey, what do you know? It's one of my favorite quotes. It's it. Yeah, it's amazing. I didn't. I didn't realize

the line before until recently. Oh nice, Yes, that quote opens up my book Wire to Create actually because we it describes the creative person to a t, you know, so wow, you actually open up the can of worms of relate your relationships. And you also you also said, like, you know, people don't like it that I like logical concy.

That's another theme right about you, is that there are a lot of things people don't like from your perception because you you combine lots of things that usually you don't see all correlated in a single human or put another way, put another way, and a lot of people you do things you do see things correlated, but with you, you break the correlational structure. So you'll be vegan, but you're not a big drinker. You'll you know, try ayahuasca, but we'ed, you know, like you're like, I don't I

stay away from weed. You know, like there are lots of these kind of I can keep going down the list. You know. Is this resonating with you at all? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah no, that's that's exactly right. Like I do embody a lot of contradictions in a way that they're they're they're I don't want to say they're anti social, but they're they're not They're not like great for social cohesion.

I mean, just not drinking is not eating meat. One of the impetuses for the show is is that I was in therapy and I was, you know what, my female therapist, and she was like said something about relationships. I was like about finding somebody. I was like, listen to me. I don't drink, I don't really smoke weed, I don't eat meat. I work at night. All of my friends are like super genius, hilarious people, and and I'm generally disagreeable as a person. It's like I just

have it like that. It just gets smaller and smaller and smaller and small and smaller and smaller. Like my the pond. I can fish in something that strikes me about you, was like, you're almost too honest about yourself and about things. It's almost like a reality matters so much to you that I think you shoot yourself in the sometimes by allowing a certain magic and illusion, a

positive illusion, to emerge. And you know, in relationships, so much of relationships really is having an illusion that you're That's what love is, you know, the love emotion. My colleague Stephen Pinker says that love is a doomsday device because the emotional love means that when the hotter person moves in next door, you don't immediately move on to them because you're so in love. You're so irrationally building them up on a pedestal because of love that it's

actually evolved as a doomsday device. That's Stephen Pinker's the notion in how the mind works. Yeah, I feel like you're like, no, no illusions, you know what I mean. But you know what's interesting is I have no illusions and yet I have total dysmorphia about my life and position in the world. You do, you really do? Because like you killed it in blocks and I genuinely mean that.

I'm not trying to build up your goal, but I was dying of laughter, right, and then and then you're almost like, by the way, stop laughing, I really do suck. And you didn't say that. You didn't say that, but it's sort of like, but you're not wrong. Yeah, yeah, I feel like you do that in a lot of

areas of your life. Probably. I have a joke that I did with a friend of mine which is, like, my life is amazing, if I could only experience it for one minute, if I could really like it, Like I know how fortunate I am talent wise at this point, Like I make a great living. I've made a great living for a long time. I know the some of the most important people in the world I have access. I like, there's I had. There's so few areas in which I'm not doing well. And yet I somehow my

brain is like programmed to look at the negative. Yeah, I look it. I love your I can't wait to hear these fucking hypothesis. Yes, yes, I think let's just jump into that and we can return to other on greig Worms like relationship all that stuff. But there's morphia as a huge thing, dude. The dys morphia is a huge thing about Like it's like reality distortion in a

negative way. It's like the opposite of the Steve Jobs thing, and it's like I wake up with it, you know, I have a hypothesis and just want to just just throw this out here because it's probably something you've never thought of. So well, I'm going to start with a quote by the comedian Greg Giraldo. Do you know who that is? Greg? Yeah? Mine? Yeah, amazing, amazing. Hasn't he passed away? Yeah, he's been. He's been dead for a

long time, so may he rest in peace. But he said, I feel like I'm the piece of shit at the center of the universe. Now, that's a quote of his, and I noticed that characteristic in a lot of comedians. I like with you, Yes, there is a neurotic sort of do you feel like you're kind of broken at your core? In a way? On the one hand, is that true? Like how do you feel at the core of you? What's at the core of Neil? At my core? I don't think I'm wrong until everyone tells me I'm wrong.

Do you know what I mean? Like, I don't, I don't all these points of view. I'm like, why do you drink? Like why would you do this to your body to your like, like, why would society promote this thing that kills you know, there's thirty thousand DUIs a year. There's half of crime is committed when people are drunk. Like, the stats are horrible. It ruins your personal health, ruins relationship. Just none of it's good and people can't stop doing it.

I like am aware of this ruin. It kind of like was a huge problem in my childhood for my dad was an alcoholic. So I think I'm right, like, well, everyone's going to agree with me on this, and then they don't. They go like, no, fuck you, and I'm like, huh, fuck me, Okay, let's move on to meet And then I go that no fuck you, we love me, Okay, let's go and I just go down the line too, and then I'm just left by myself. Yeah, I don't think I'm like right in a way that's like amazing

and incredible. I just it's more just like what it's the same basic idea I had with as in my family, which is like, what, this doesn't seem great. I have a joke. It's or not even a joker, but it's like, you know what. My favorite part of self loathing is the self part. It's like it's similar to the Giraldo thing like that. But I but at the same time, I really really long for connection with people, and not in a way that's bullshit, not on way right. No,

First of all, I totally get that from you. I mean, you like things that are real, meaningful, and you don't like the you don't like pretense. You're like the opposite of pretense. You know, I don't. Yeah, I tried it. Yes, when I'm at my best. Yeah, I can see that clearly. But I have a test here, and I'm not going to say what this is a test of. But I want to score it first before I tell you what it's a test of. But can I read some items to you and people at home try to guess what

it's a test ups as we play the game. Yeah, exactly, because it's it's a construct that I've been studying for twenty years, but many people are not aware of it in the general population. But I think it's very important. So I'm going to read each of these items and just tell me on a scale of one to five, one being not at all to five being I agree very much with that statement. Okay, I can become entirely absorbed in thinking about my personal affairs, my health, my cares,

or my relations to others. Seven. Five Okay, yeah, I gotcha. My feelings are easily hurt by ridicule or the slightest remarks of others. Five. I feel that I have enough on my hand about worrying about other people's troubles. Three you know, be bluntly honest with me about these things. I well, I don't. That's I would need like follow ups for that. Do you know what I mean? Like I have like ah, because I do. I'm very codependent, I agree, incredibly codependent. So yes, and that's correlated with

this construct, by the way, it's correlated with this. I'm wildly codependent. Okay, Wow, Okay, we're onto something, We're onto something. Okay. I often interpret the remarks of others in a personal way. Five I easily, I easily become wrapped up in my own interests and forget the existence of others. Is that a three? Five? Five? Okay, I mean, okay, okay, the right thing? You know. I was editing a video one time and like missed a flight just I'm in the airport. Yeah.

I dislike being with a group unless I know that I am appreciated by at least one of those present. Five I am jealous of good looking people. I don't know why that's on the scale, too, Yeah too, I don't, I don't. It's like beautiful dummy. Yeah yeah, that's like I don't know what that's on the scale, but it is science, on the scientific scale. I tend to feel humiliated when criticized. Five I wonder why other people aren't more appreciative of my good qualities. Ten it's five pretty deep, right.

I am especially sensitive to success and failure. Five. I have problems that nobody else seems to understand. Five. I mean this sounds like you were, you've been, You've been tapping my conversation. This is a this is a this is a construct. I don't know what this is a test for, but I have it. I want, I know, I know. Okay, you're you're, you're, you're. By the way, you're racing this test so far, you're raising this. I try to avoid rejection at all costs. Five. My secret thoughts, feelings,

and actions would hard some of my friends. That might be too dramatic. No, I mean, I'll go four. Yeah, I tend to become involved in relationships in which I alternately adore and despise the other person. Four. Even when I am in a group of friends, I often feel very alone and uneasy. Five I respect, I resent others who have what I lack. That's an interesting one. I don't resent. I don't have a ton of resentments with

that stuff. I'll go too on that. I see that, by the way, I see how amazingly incurage like supportive you are of your friends. Who are you know, like Chris Rock and like Chappelle. I do see that. Yeah. Chris one time said he's like, you're not competitive with Dave, because it's I don't. There's here's what, here's the caveat. I'm competitive with Dave ideologically. Like we used to do a joke where my my dream for him on his deathbed his final words to be Neil was right, Like,

that's I want that. But I don't think I'm funnier than him. Yeah, yeah, I don't think I'm funnier than him. We have been in situations where I think I have the funnier idea. But I don't think I'm like this clown, you know what I mean? Like yeah. Just to clarify when you say ideology, like, are you talking about like some of his like things he's coming under fire for recently, like now ideology thirty years ago? I mean it's thirty it's a thirty year argument. Gotcha, gotcha? Okay, And this

is just the last question on the test. Defeat or disappointment usually shame or anger me, but I try not to show it. Five. Yeah, so you score very high on this scale. Is it covert narcissism. It's covert narcissism, that's right, or I call it vulnerable narcissism, which that's that's charitable. Yes, yes, Well, but the thing is, I don't I've been really trying to work to help people and say we have we all have a little bit

of this in us. I don't believe in this notion of like, oh, there's the narcissis and I'm not the narcissist, right, like you know, like these are really human characteristics and kind of try to help people with their growth and self actualization because it's what's heartbreaking about people who score high on the scale. And I've written papers about this in the scientific community from a clinical perspective, and I can send you my papers on if you want to

read clinical implications of this. The thing is that it's so strongly correlated with depression, and it's so strongly correlated with with mental well well being. And this is the thing. The difference between this and grandiose narcissism narcissm is this is at the hands of the person themselves. You know, they are causing their own suffering in so many ways. And I know what's the what's grandiose n Who's causing that? It's like the thumping of the chest. I am the

greatest because I'm inherently superior to others. That's great. Fold of narcissm is different. It's some like an entitlement sort of grandiose fantasies that are more have shame like involved with it. You know. It's like I want to be great, but I also kind of feel shameful that I want to be great, you know, as opposed to like the grandiose narciss has no problem saying they want to be great, right, They're like, I'm great, you know, Yeah, I've been embarrassed

by the positive reaction I've gotten from the blocks. I've not been embarrassed by the positive reaction. I've been embarrassed by my reaction to the positive reaction, which is I really like it, and it I really like it to the point where I'm like, I told a friend of mine, I'm like, I'm like a death spot in exile. And I finally came back to my contrary and I'm like, fuck you. Yeah, I see that there's like this inner resistance to just owning your awesomeness to be very Oprah.

That sounds very Oprah, but I love Oprah, so I'm gonna go there for a second. You know, there's kind of this like have you been in a relationship, you know the person is like, wow, I just adore you, Neil, like you're the best, and that you have this immediate reaction to kind of like prove that wrong in some way. Oh that now I'm like, i I'm like, yeah, oh you're like I am, yeah, I know, you get it,

you get gotcha. And then if if somehow something goes wrong, they're like that illusion is broken in some way where they're like, oh, well you're not you know, then shame you'll feel out of shame, yeah, or I'll like work hard to prove that wrong. Yeah, yeah, or I'll work hard to improve myself where I'll like I'm it's like I can white knuckle any relationship, like I can stay in a relationship forever, just you know, it's their hard work. Yeah,

I don't. I don't like the label covert narcism, Like I don't. I'm not trying to call you a narcissist, right, that's like again, I really believe there's a humanity underneath all of this, Like all of us want to be loved, all of us want to belong, all of us want to be accepted, and then some of us really what you know, want to be accepted some of us like really you know, it's it's all continuum. But I feel I believe the inner the inner your inner world, like

and I had some CBT kind of questions. I wanted to ask you as well about your inner world, you know, and the way you think, because maybe if maybe, if we could just care you, Yeah, if we just change these thought patterns, like you'll be I think it'll be so much happier, but maybe you might not be as small.

What's the treatment for COVID narcissism. Well, they're there. Well, there is a treatment because I have a joke about narcissists where uh, they have the disease, you have the side effects and and it's I had another joke the other day about narcism, which is a buddy mind said it's like having turets, and I said, yeah, it's like having turets. But the only word you yell out is me. So I'm wondering, what the what the like? But that's grandiose narcissism. Yes, Like this flavor that you have is

is it's turned within this. The harm is self harm. The harm is not other harm. You know, that's the that's the major difference here. You know, you are causing yourself so much unnecessary suffering. What am I trying to resolve that that the grandiose narcissist? What's the difference in terms of like the underlying the presumed underlying cause. Yeah, so usually with this thing is that there's like a

feeling of fragility. There's a sort of like an underlying idea that you are ultimately fragile, like you can't somehow handle being whole stop rejected, Like fear of rejection is actually a big thing. And uh, well, sometimes I don't want to get too clinical, but vultable narcissm is something times correlated with borderline personality disorder, for instance, in the

psychological liturture. Now that's a more extreme clinical diagnosis, where vulnem narcissm is just a personality trait that people differ on. But the fear of rejection is like so central to so many of these kinds of things, and shame is so central, and usually it develops as a result of being young and not having every time you express your needs a parental figure would invalidate those needs. So if

you're a young baby, that's usually how it develops. That's what we found, you know, is like if you're if you're a kid and even just crying and the parents that stopped crying right or you're like, I really want food and the parents says, you know, well, my needs

are more important right now than you wanting food. The child starts to develop shame for normal, healthy motivations, and then when they grow up, if they have like big ambitions in life, they feel shame somehow well, you know, for even though they feel like they want they really do want to be great, you know, So there's that they kind of this residual leftover sort of shame for being great for fully you know, standing out. Yeah, it's the conflict of like wanting it and then put at

the same be like, ah, but it does. I mean I didn't do stand up for that for a long time because of that. So I was like, what a low impulse, the same impulse I get when I get these gale force approval And I'm like, oh, I love it. But what a hungry hippo I am for wanting this, you know. But meanwhile everybody wants approval. Yeah, you know, I mean, like does Chappelle ever, I just can't imagine him, Like he gets these critics and I feel that instead

of shame, he uses it as fuel. He's like he's like that my next one, I'm going to like take them on specifically, you know. Yeah, So here's some cognitive distortions. I'm gonna send you a book by my friend Seth Gillahan that's coming out soon called Mindful CBT. I'll just send you that book because so it'll help you like

change your cognitive distortions. But like I imagine you have black and white thinking, right, So, like I actually have examples for each of these in terms of the way I used to think about women, which was holding me back. So if I get rejected by this woman, I'm a total loser in life. That's so black and white, right, It's like if you know, that's like totally you're either a loser or you're not. You know what I mean

is that, Yeah, you're black and white thinking catastrophied. Yeah, I mean, certainly for forty five minutes, it's a referendum. If she doesn't like you, If that girl doesn't like you, it's because there's something inherent in you that no woman will like exactly. The other one is catastrophizing. Yeah, it's a former catastrophizing, and it's I'm a huge catastroizer anyway. But but yeah, Larry David used to do a and

it's not it's a joke. It's a funny anecdote, but I think it's a based and true thing, which is he used to be a cab driver a taxi driver in New York and he's like, when I didn't have a fair, I just thought, I'm never getting another fair again for as long as I live. No, it's like I'll teach a class at you know, I'm a professor. I'll teach a class and like, I'll have like ninety

nine percent positive comments. And if one student's like he thinks hees a lot funnier than he really is, I'd be like, I'm never telling a joke ever again in my life in class, but yeah, fine, then I want yeah, yeah, it's like one student, right, yeah, no, I totally get it. Minimizing. Do you undervalue positive events when they happen? Yeah, I

will minimize. I will. It's like yeah, but oh yeah, but it I'll contextualize it in a bigger picture all that stuff for sure, Or that's an aberration, like well I did that well, but false of hopelessness, like being like, oh well, there's no point in approaching her anyway, I'll probably just come across as shady. You know that. That's just an example of like just this false sense of hopelessness. Personalizing attributing the outcome of a situation as solely the

result of one's actions or behaviors. She said she has a girlfriend, she must be saying that because she really is not interested in me and was probably repulsed by me, you know, kind of like personalizing someone's response. Yeah, I will have you know, when my agents are they'll be like, do you want to try to do that? I'm like, he hates me, don't bother. I saw him. I saw him Chipotle. He was weird. And they have to go like, wait, what now is this real? Or are you just a man?

And I'm like, I don't know. I'm just telling you. I'm almost always right about these things. I will say I am generally right about my suspicions of like he doesn't respect me, and I can just you know, tell shoulding thinking the way we want things to turn out is how they ought to have turned out. This person should have liked me. It seems so meant to be. I mean, that's it's so core. It's not even it's

in the hardware, it's not even software. It's like I was saying last night that that to a friend of mine, like I'll explained something. I was like, it's so fundamentally unfair that I can't. She's like, why do you think things are going to be fair? And I was like, right, because they're supposed to be fair. Like what's the point

of anything if it's not gonna be fair? Or when people don't have a code, or like what are we friends for if you're not gonna do X. She's like, you just have to look past that stuff, And I'm like, look past it to what? Or when people say we need to like get beyond this, it's like, yeah, but if we get beyond it, you still did that, and I know that you did that, So what's the purpose? What are we getting beyond it to a shittier, shallower relationship?

Oh my gosh, I wonder if we did like have treatment for this, if you would be less f I really am deeply curious the extent to which these things are bound up. I mean, again, it's so like I said, it's so in the in my in some some ways, my jokes are a distortion, but most of my jokes are just a logic test in some ways in a lot of ways, or like a very good metaphor, which

is a form of logic. I was reading some of the comments on Twitter about your show, and people were writing they thought it was brilliant and they loved it because of its realness and it's it's authenticity. So let's not let's make sure we're not denigrating that aspect of what makes makes it awesome. I think I'm good, like very good. Yeah. Yeah, but as a COVID narcissist, you

know how I feel about it. I don't buy that thing of like if you get healthy, you'll be less fun I don't buy that, yeah, because I've gotten healthier and funnier. Good, Well, just a couple more, because I think we basically know you have this hard jumping to conclusions, feeling certain of the meaning of a situation despite little evidence to support that conclusion. Like I call that being

a white man. Yeah, uh, I called that. I used to do a bit with Dave called late Arriving Instant Expert mm hmmm, where I can walk up to it's like being a white Man's almost like being a doctor, where like I think, I know what's happening. I'm a white man, you're doing it, and it's just like Okay.

I wanted to do a thing where I went to like CBS and just told the employees they could go on break and see if they did it, just as like, hey, I'm a white man, you can go on break and then being like all right, and then they just go on break. I've never thought of it through that lens, through a racial lens, but that's really interesting. You got to where that's where the good stuff is. That's where

the good stuff is. Okay, how about the last one for this because I have a longer list, but I'm going to send you this book so we don't need to do a complete treatment in this hour. But the last one I have here is I feel like maybe this is this is a real source of a lot of your own happiness, and that's it's called outsourcing happiness, so making outside factors the ultimate arbiter of her happiness, Like I can't be happy in life unless I dot

dot dot. Yeah, obviously that's a huge I'd argue that's a huge problem for every everybody and it's kind of the basis of capitalism. Mm hmm, but true, that's true consumer capitalism, consumer capitalism, yeah, yeah, consumer society. Sure. However, whatever whatever clinical terms you want to put on. So yeah, like I definitely have have had to recalibrate. It's very hard to to make it manifest deeply. But you know, going like I hope that I become a well known

comedian because I think then I'll be happy. So I'm doing comedy to be happy. And I was like, you know, there's a there's a step in here. You could just omit and you could just be happy, you know what I mean? I want to make or I won't be happy unless I accomplish X. And it's like or again, just be happy. Do you practice mindfulness at all? Make the decision to be happy? You know? Do you do?

You meditate it all? Yeah? I do? And as I was saying that, I like as a reminder, like I haven't in a couple of days, and it's like, you know, there's a lot of value to it, and I know there is. I physically feel better in my body after So what have you tried? You talk about this in your in your you know you've tried some You've tried some drugs. Yeah, I've triedoft, Zoloft, Modafanel, pros act and like what's the one begins with an M. I think

I've tried probably five medications, five or six. Uh. Some worked, some didn't, some worked and expired. Some some I took and then I felt like it and needed any more. I take beta blockers now when I'm going to do a big stand up show, and I find them really helpful. Like they don't take there seems to be no downside, an all upside because I was getting panic attacks at one point before I went on or while I was

on stage. Pretty great. I done EMDR, which I found helpful in a way that I couldn't quite put my finger on. But like the irony is I've tried somatic therapy. The irony is when I did EMDR, my I like trusted the therapist so much that it brought out sematic sort of. There's a cut to me in the special where I say, like I tried therapy and like my shoulders like fucking like sort of pulsating. That's because it was like a sematic expression because I trusted the therapist. Ketamine.

Didn't like ketamine. I know people that really like it. It's I just didn't like it. Did it five times, I think, and then TMS transcrenting on my netic stimulation, which I liked a lot, and then I did a Chinese one that's which I also liked. In terms of the output. Are you aware of what exactly part of the brain they turned down the electricity on, so to speak? Like do you know what they targeted? I think they activated the electricity in this area whatever, Like okay, so

you're in that latitude. Yeah, that's what's most curly with happiness. Yeah, your left prefontal cortex. Yeah yeah yeah. And then ayahuasca I did, and you saw God. Ayauasca was beautiful. Yeah. I mean I was an atheist before and my fourth ayahuasca I was like, oh, okay, I believe in God. No sorry, not even four third third ceremony of believed in God. By the ninth ceremony, I was sort of like doing weird bodily motions that I wasn't in shar

in control of. I don't it's somatic. It's like, I don't want to say spirit based, but that's my suspicion. I have really beautiful experienced hard make no mistake, very difficult, some really bad experiences, but in the aggregate, really amazing. And then and I talked about this in the special in blocks on Netflix five me O, d MT Bufo, al various, too far, too much, took me five months to recover, had a reactivation a week after I did it.

That lasted five months, and was I was drowning on incomprehensibility. My mind was drowning. You don't want that. When I when I did it, I had the Michael Pollen experience that he did it and had the same experience. He said it was the only one of the play medicines he did that he couldn't figure out the value of or get anything. I in some ways I agree with him. But he went to a place that he referred to us before the Big Bang, which is exactly where I went.

I was in a land before It wasn't a land. I was in a consciousness before time. I didn't know anything. I didn't know direction, I didn't know breathing, I didn't know sight, I didn't know for time itself. Yeah, I felt like I formed the first sineps, not in human history, but just like I remember going like it was such a crazy experience. It's hard to even talk about. I couldn't talk about it because it was so traumatized for a few months. But now I find it. It's hard

to explain because there's contradictions within it. I mean, like where it's like I formed the first sinep, but it's like, but how do you remember that? You know? Like, what do you mean you form that? You clearly? I remember thinking God's I remember hearing or experiences like God's not here yet. Stuff like, you know, insane realm. How does this stuff? Insane real? Well? Being on here on earth knowing that I'm a part of a bigger thing is helpful.

It makes life, I mean, in some ways it might help the the the the covert, the what do you call generous narciss, wonderful narciss vulnerable. Yet it may help that in that it makes things less important, makes things less like do or die not unimportant, not it's not nihilism, but it's certainly a lot of perspective. And that's helpful, really helpful. And I'll say that I'm my brain is different the way I comparence because of d MT in ayahuasca.

My brain is different, which is a huge, a huge thing. Now, I wouldn't do it again if you offer me one billion dollars or a bee. Wouldn't do it again. Wouldn't like no, thank you. I cannot endure that. The thing I went through for five months, I cannot endure. I've done Iowa, I did ayahuasca two weeks ago, but the five meo DMT I cannot personally endure. But it was very helpful. Wow. Well, I love that. I love the idea that it really helped you, yeah, be part of

something larger, yeah than even humans. I remember saying in therapy and talk therapy like this is in my body. I can talk about this endlessly. It's in me. And iahuasca and DMT went into it, like got into it like it that it like rearranged some of the stuff. And that's huge, That is huge, That is huge. Maybe it even help. Do you damper put a damper on some of these cognitive distortions that are so prevalent in your head? Yeah, I think that they reduced them, for sure,

they made them less, they made them less potent, potent. Yeah, they're certainly there, and they're certainly like the headline, but they're not the nine to eleven headline America attacked. They're like Dow down seven hundred points. And that's exactly what mindful CBT is, which is a new form of CBT that combines the best of mindfulness as well as the best of what we know about CBT. So you can actually just yeah, somebody suggested mindfulness last night? Love it mindful?

They did? Did they suggest mindful CBT specifically or just mine? Now? Okay, but CBT when I heard, when I read that that

list of cognitive distortions. It was like, oh, say no more. Yeah, And that's the thing that a lot of people are saying about this, the my Blox thing is like people are like, I felt like you, Like you said exactly the way I feel because it's like, there's only so many programs that we have mm hm as you you know, it's kind of like what your job is, yeah, is to analyze and assess what program people are running and try to that's right, figure out a way for them

to either stop it or optimize it. That's right. Well, you're such an interesting cat. You obviously are incredibly successful, like having a Netflix special too. You've had two Netflix specials, and all the work you've done writing is is so

impressive that you you clearly deserve the more swagger. But what's interesting about you is that swagger would not be authentic to who you are, because you do kind of you don't like pretense and you don't like you know, there's a certain personality of you that in a way, just the more you embrace that, the more people actually like you. So you're so you're so interesting. The swagger, Well,

well yeah, you could use more slagger. I could talk about this endlessly, but it's people because of the way people heard about me or learned about me is I was Dave's partner, right right, That's how most people think of me. First learned about me, and as Dave's partner. The first thought is, there's no fucking way you wrote anything. So when I demand they acknowledged that I wrote anything, or sort of carry myself like I did the work

that I did, do they don't. People resent it and like, really ben like slag me, and they it becomes a racial thing pretty quickly, and like I'm cultural vulturing and it's like Dave asked me to do the show, so like that, I'm cultural vulturing and I'm pretending to be all these things whatever. So I have to kind of play it small in that regard because people were like,

you're so cocky. I'm like, okay, all right, I don't know, so so I have to play it small, even though I resent them saying that because it's a sign of their disrespect, Like you you you're cocky and you shouldn't be. It's like, okay, they call confident acknowledging things you've done, or cocky is like I did this thing. Stop talking about it. Okay, you're going to bring it up, but okay, I have a lot of defensive obviously, no, I hear you. This is by the way, that's I mean, that's a

fascinating question. Who deserves to be cocky? I mean no, Look, that brings up a lot of other things. But I don't think anyone who watches your documentary could possibly leave leave it not documentary, listen to me, watch your special blocks could possibly leave it thinking you're cocky like you lay out. But that's the point of it, The point of these specials, The reason I do these, where I'm revealing, is because I read to people as cocky in an

undeserved way. Yeah, cold, superior or bored or like flat affect. So part of it is specifically neutralizing that. Like where I'm going like, not only am I not cocky? Let me bring you into my experience. Yeah, Well, wouldn't it be nice to get to a point some day in your career where you could just kill it comedically like you did the first three fourths without feeling any need for apology. I'm gonna go it's for the first four fifths. Yeah, but you kill the whole thing and then you drop

the mic and you finally feel complete. Do you know what I mean? Like, I feel like that's what we need to get you at some days, a point where you don't feel a need to less to lessen to yourself at all, or to diminish yourself at all. Yeah. Yeah, I I hope I'm there, you too, you know me too. Yeah, well let's leave. Let's leave on that note. It really really an honor to talk to you, Neil, and I wish you all the best, please yeah, and uh and I'll send you some books and stuff I I I

dare you. Yeah, yeah, well you've got it. Thank you. Thanks for the help, Brouh, Thank you, thanks for listening to this episode of The Psychology Podcast. If you'd like to react in some way to something you heard, I encourage you to join in the discussion at the Psychology podcast dot com. We're on our YouTube page the Psychology Podcast. We also put up some videos of some episodes on our YouTube page as well, so you'll want to check

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