Mitch Prinstein || Popularity and the Power of Likability in a Status-Obsessed World

have Mitch Prinstein on the show. Mitch is Board certified in clinical Child and Adolescent psychology and serves as the John Van Seters Distinguished Professor of Psychology and Neuroscience and the Director of Clinical Psychology at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Mitch's Pure Relations Lab has been conducting research on popular already in puy relations for almost twenty years, and he only looks twenty years old. His latest book is Popular The Power of Likability in a

status Obsessed World. Thanks for chat and Mitch, sure, thanks for having me. You must have started very young when you're in high school. I get that a lot. I think I looked young growing up. Yeah, fair enough, Well tell me how these interests were formed as a child.

You know, it's a good question. I'm not sure what made me so interested in popularity through my whole life, but I can remember being even you know, five and six years old and just being so fascinated by why some people were so popular and other people were not. And as I grew up, I was surprised how stable that was through elementary school and middle school and high school, and when I went to grad school and I learned just how powerful it is actually as a predicture of

our human relationships and our well being. Yeah, sure, is a drive to be popular in some sense is probably a basic human need. It is, in fact in ways that we didn't even realize until people have started doing work on genetics and epigenetics. We're now learning that the experience of being rejected actually sends a warning signal in your brain that's remarkably powerful, and it turns on dormant DNA to make us immediately respond as if we're about to be harmed at the first sign that we think

we're being socially rejected. There's something about being human that requires us to feel included, and when we don't, when we feel unpopular, we have physiological responses that are pretty dramatic. Yeah, that proximate physical harm, physical pain. So yeah, I find that research a really fascinating. But there are as you know, there are different ways of being popular and different ways of being rejected, and maybe you could just tell me these two main ways and we can kind of riff

off that. Yeah, sure, absolutely so. Most people when they think about popularity, they think about the it's super cool in high school and everyone knew who they were and everyone try to copy them, and that is one form of popularity, we call it status. But there is another form of popularity that some people might not realize. It's the form that mattered when we were kindergarteners and it also continues to matter for the rest of our lives.

And that's likability. If you think about those kids who are most popular in kindergarten or in elementary school, it wasn't because they were cool, and it wasn't because they were most visible. They were just really likable. And that likability plays a role in our occupational success and our personal relationships. It actually has a big effect on our well being and health as well. Likability and status, or the two different forms, and for the rest of our lives.

We really have the choice of which kind of popularity we want to pursue. So it's likability as what. Because you're saying we don't like people who are we don't like Michael Jordan, we just admire Michael Jordan. Well, there are a few people out there who are both likable and high in status. Michael Jordan might be one of them, but research says that only about thirty percent of those

high end status are also really likable. One of the reasons why is because some of the things that it takes to become high end status actually simultaneously make you really disliked. For instance, being aggressive will make you really high end status, unfortunately, but it'll make you really low in likability. And a lot of the most likable people

folks really hate them. You're absolutely right there too, fund they are different, it's worth separating them, and they're both sources of self esteem as well really important so seem so, with all that said, it makes me think that for either even for need for liking, if our pursuit for liking becomes too high, then we actually backfires and makes us less likable as well. Like the really needy person who needs to be liked by anyone that person's disliked

as well, right, Mitch, Absolutely. You know, I really like the way that you're thinking about it and or research, and I think that does map on really well, because you know, that does parallel what's been found in some of the research literature on popularity as well. Your point about being a status seeker or a seeker of likability is totally spot on, because it's one thing to enjoy

the benefits of happening to be likable. It's another thing entirely to be seeming like you're needy and you're searching for more likability. Same for status, and I think we now have a you know, a perfect example of this that we see in politics of someone who is so interested in their status that they're constantly seeking reminders and ways of increasing their status, and that's very much a turnoff. Yeah,

so great. I'm so glad we're on the same page there with that, and we can kind of integrate those literatures because I think all these data points are really converging on a very similar story. And it's exciting, you know, when it happens. It doesn't often happen in science, right, so absolutely so. In the self esteem literature. There are these two in the popularity liture that you've been pioneering.

There's those two in the now. I'm trying to kind of bring that into the narcissism literature in terms of abnormal psychology and clinical implications because the people who sit on the chair at the therapist's office, most likely it's, you know, kind of one of those two. It has become really disrupted, maybe through childhood abuse or like a parent, maybe they're bullied a lot as kids, or their parents gave them a lot of emotional abuse and kind of

make it unclear, so et cetera. Yeah, I love it. I think that that makes perfect sense. And you're right about the therapist's chair, and you know what's really being talked about. You know, for a lot of kids who are experiencing difficulties, they grow up and they have this sensitivity to rejection or they have this way of assuming that they're going to be having a hard time in their personal relationships, and there's some evidence that shows they

actually then recreate those experiences. And we can talk about that, but more to your point on how important this can be in that therapist's chair is that there are people that think that the way that they'll feel better from those old childhood wounds is that they'll seek being popular. They'll look for this kind of positive regard, but they make the mistake of looking for status rather than likability. And the problem with that is that it puts your

happiness consistently in the hands of others. You know, you can't feel good about yourself unless someone has just complemented you. And similarly, the most recent rejection experience will wipe away any positive, stable sense of self esteem that you had before.

So it turns out to be an incredibly important aspect of what a lot of people are dealing with when they're in therapy is are they resilient to their sense of status, you know, and the fluctuations that we all experience in that from day to day, or are they overly seeking kind of this sense of of regard and this constant accolade which has been made all the more

easy to be susceptible to on social media. You know, you could count the number of likes you have per day, and does that make you feel good about yourself or bad about yourself? And that's, you know, that's a very dangerous way to live life. To be overly fixated on these markers of status. Hmm. You know, you're saying lots of things that are really interesting because I'm thinking, you know, the argument here is we both agree that the obsessive

pursuit of either is can become maladaptive. But you're saying, all also being equal, we should search for liking more than status. So you're saying that there are a lot of reasons that we should choose liking as the pursuit rather than status without it getting into an obsessive area exactly.

I mean, we don't want to be in an obsessed with area for any kind of popularity, certainly, but if we are going to seek, you know, listen to our human nature desire to feel connected, we should try and do that in ways to promote likability, because liability not only leads to concrete benefits in life, but it also leads to intrinsic rewards, you know, being more likable, caring about others, attending to others' needs, that actually leads to intrinsic rewards as well as any rewards we might get

from people actually then treating us better. So I believe that there is a basic human instinct for us to want to be socially connected and for those who didn't feel very connected as adolescence, I believe that that sticks with us for a long time. You know, there's now more nervous science evidence to show us why our adolescent

memories play in an enduring role for decades later. If we're going to listen to those instincts, in those basic human drives, then I think it's important that we focus them where it's most likely to help us rather than

hurt us. And all evidence would suggest that likability will help us and status will hurt us within the popularity if popularity is your game, So moving outside of the popularity demain and taking a broader picture, I would think that both of those are not as optimal as love, like that both are actually are neither going to be

as satisfying substitutes. So, you know, like if we get to steer between three systems in the brain, the affiliation system, the connection system, and the status system, it seems to me like I would almost make the argument that within popularity, one is better than the other. But the driver populary itself shouldn't be the thing that there are the things in life that give us more meaning and more satisfaction

than the pursuit for popularity. So it's like your argument is right, and then like taking it one step further to a broader picture of well being. Yeah. Absolutely, I mean I think that you know, the basic human needs of feeling connected can be satisfied with a loving relationship, and you know those true connections absolutely. You know. There are other relationships that we have in life, though, that we really need to not only foster for ourselves and foster,

you know, with our kids. So we may feel a sense of passion when it comes to our work lives, but in order to succeed and to get your ideas across and to feel connected at work and successful at work, you need to also be likable, you know. I think that's an important domain where we might not be able to have the same kind of depth of emotional connection that you might get from love, but we need to

feel likable there as well. And when we're raising our children, you know, we want to give them the capacity connect with others by knowing how to be likable, so they will have the opportunity to meet somebody and fall in love as well. So I agree, I think that likability is instrumental in helping us, you know, with a lot of life's relationships. But ultimately the thing that might be most satisfying is the you know, the kind of more deep,

selfless kind of acts of love, intimacy and altruism. Yeah, into the altruism compassion versus affiliation and status. I really appreciate your research. I think that you've really done a lot for the field and showing about they're clearly different.

You know, we also all these other needs, and I you know, I'm just like thinking of it from like a maso hierarchy of needs sort of perspective, you know, like in both affiliation and status or with the or within the extra version personality demean whereas intimacy is part of agreeableness, it's actually a different you Knowate, it's a

different demean of the Big five. So, as a personality psychologist and connecting personality to motives and motivations, it seems like this popularity stuff you're talking about really falls within that extra version demean and the different facets of it, whereas the agreeableness compassion demean is a different beast. I think that's a good point, you know, I like your points about the seam, and really, how did Maslow mean that?

You know, one of the things that I have been thinking about a lot recently is, you know, going back to social media for a moment, is you know that was made in Mark Zuckerberg's storm room. Let's say, you know, maybe there was some recursors to that, and it was a thing that serves an important function in college. You know,

there many of us that wentz Cology years ago. Remember that there used to be an actual hard copy of a Facebook that you would actually let you learn the names of the other people in your class and give you an opportunity to meet others. But there's something about the way that that took off and went well beyond college, well beyond that developmental stage, and people use it. They don't just use it, but they crave it. They go back to it. You know, why is that what human

need is being served? It's a need that must be really palpable and salient for us as a species because it has crossed every culture, nationality, you know, age group. Now there's some need that was served by the creation of social media and all of its various incarnations. Now, why do we need that? Why do you have to have that constant source of connection. And it's not just connection.

We had email before, but it's a way of seeing that people approved of you and what you said and what is And I think that the massless hierarchy of needs point that you're raising is a really interesting one because it does suggest there's something very fundamental about needing to have this daily or weekly reminder that people, you know, thumbs up what you said and what you thought about. Constant affirmation. Yes, and you know, it's just shallow. That's

not the same thing as intimacy. Too far. It is a form of narcism, this constant need for validation, but it still leaves us empty at the end of the day. You know. That's why I would argue that both of your things within the populary demean are still poor substitutes

for love, you know. So yeah, I think that's so interesting. Yeah, I think that's fair, you know, And I think there is something very narcissistic about, you know, seeking those kinds of likes and retweets or you know, whatever platform you're on,

and really looking for them. We've been doing some research recently on what we're called in digital status seeking, and my graduate student, Jackie Nesi really came up with us and identified that there were a lot of of people who post in a pretty overt obvious way just to

get more attention of their profiles. When she looked at digital status seeking longitudinally in an adolescent sample, she found that the more that you had the reputation of being a status seeker on Instagram in this case, the greater the difficulties you had in your relationships, and the higher

prevalence of health risk behaviors over time. There's something about digital satus seeking that serves as a marker for perhaps a personality attribute, you know, where some people are taking this a little too far and they're being a little too overt, and they're desire to constantly get these rewards. Neuroscientists would call them social rewards. And we talk about the eventual austraid and kind of lighting up every time you see your post as more retweets certain and you know,

or likes attached to it. And I think that's a really interesting phenomenon that, you know, what has happened in our species recently that has changed the way we interact with each other that dramatically and unveiled a human need we didn't even realize we had before. Oh yeah, it's so interesting. It magnifies that need more than maybe our caveman ancestors were aware of just how important it was

for us. But you know, this is so interesting because again from like a what's the most prepotent need here? It might be these things over love. Like that's a very controversial thing to say, but I like, why are people seeking all this stuff? So why are people obsessed with that stuff? And why aren't people obsessed with like family connections, like one on one connections. Why is this

superficial affiliation drive trumping the compassion drive? I know, I just hate to use that word these days, trumping, But do you see what I'm saying? This is almost like a natural experiment. And why is affiliation and status winning over love? So you know, there's a couple of different hypotheses there, right, Like is it that we are somehow still stuck in adolescence? Is it the way that we all experienced adolescence and that really push for social rewards

and not lessons? Does that stay with us? Was that so salient and so important to us back then that those needs still play a role Because there's still an adolescent inside all of us that's desperately wanting to be cool. You know, that would be one hypothesis. You know, maybe another one is that maybe there's been a desire to have kind of high status for an evolutionary need. You know, it does affirm our survival, you know it did back in caveman times and until about one hundred years ago.

It also played a huge role. You know, you need it to be part of a team. There are still cultures where royalty and class play an enormous role in your survival, including our own culture. Is this a marker for that? And is there an evolutionary drive? There are many different possibilities, but there's something about this desire for status that does seem to play a role in social media has kind of turned into a game, but it

seems to be tapping into something very real. Absolutely, Yeah, I really like all these ideas, and I don't know, it's not like we have the answer, right, That would be amazing if the psychology podcast we just came up with like the reason why it's so intert But I think that these are all really viable hypotheses, and yeah, thanks for putting them forward. So what is the popularity boomerang. So the popularity boomerang is based on what developmental psychologists

and developmental psychopathology people call the transactional model. The transactional model really talks about the give and take that we have with our environments. So, of course our environment kind of can inflict upon us injury or a negative experience, and that affects our mood and our emotions and our behavior. But people don't often realize the way that your own

experiences elicit different things out of the environment. If you walk around sad, it actually leads to mood contation, and other people get sad around you, and that makes you more sad and so on. So in a very real way, what you throw out there comes right back at you. And one of the things that's been really fascinating in the research on popularity is that there is a transactional relationship.

Popular people have lifetime benefits, and it's not just because of favoritism, and it's not just because they have some underlying quality that made them popularity in the first place. It really is because by being likable, let's say, it elicits new things from the environment that a person standing

right next to them. That's not likable would not get and that extra advantage that you get from the environment gives you an opportunity to truly learn new skills, get access to new resources which make you even more likable, and it starts the cycle all over again. And in that chapter in the book, you know, I talk about some real life examples and some research that really show that there is a power of popularity that is quite enduring. And you know it is because these are folks who

are able to live in a different world. They elicit a different environment than everyone else does. So interesting, and it's almost like it's like a cycle. It's a spirals viral, you know, like like they're talking about posit psychology, like positive spirals upward upwards and negative spirals downwards, things like that. Yeah, exactly, Yeah,

really interesting. So I really am so curious why popularity matters so much to us as adults, even though we don't want to admit it, and how we can conquer the problem Queen today as that's how you frame it. Yeah, yeah, you know, it does matter, And I would say that, you know, one of the things that people have realized more and more is how much in psychology we call it social information processing biases play a role. To me. What this is one of the most fascinating things we

study in psychology. But you know, there's research that shows even using eye tracking devices where you can look at what people look at and how long they stare at things, that shows that based on your mood or based on your prior social experiences, you could literally watch a video, a standardized video, and you will stare at different parts of the video, and you will stare longer at parts of that video than other people who had different social

relationships than you did growing up. So a popular person will attune to positive social cues, and an unpopular person will grow up to spend more time steering at negative social cues in their environment. In some ways, that can be really helpful for that unpopular person and it helps them stay vigilant and notice things that other people might be too pollyanna to notice. But you can also imagine

some pretty bad ways that really colors your life. You know, it's kind of a negative filter that really makes you see and expect and anticipate rejection and relationship after relationship, and that can be really really damaging. And once you recognize those filters, a clinical psychologist would use cognitive behavioral therapy to really be able to show you how you're making some automatic assumptions and how you can overturn that

by paying attention to new information. You know, when you're saying all this, it makes me think that, you know, the sociometer view is really on the right track, that self esteem really maybe evolved to tracks mostly interpersonal functions. It responses interpersonal responses to us, you know, of our value as a social animal. Yeah, we are such a social animal. And you know, it's funny I'm saying all this. I'm like, not a social psych I'm like other things

like a personality, positive, cognitive personality, blah blah blah. But I I really have so much appreciation for the social psychology perspective on this, and I think it needs to be integrated because we can have these fragmented fields where we study these things in isolation and each other. Like if I have the Handbook of self esteem, which is not beach reading, it's so technical and in the weeds, and you know, and a lot awful lot of it

doesn't mention social at all. You know, it's so much about just like I feel like self beliefs you know, which are part of the story too, Like I am unlovable, I am on but when you look at the nature of it's like almost obvious. But when you're like, oh, that's interesting, Like almost all these self police have to do with my social value, right, I mean, I believe that,

you know, our development occurves in a social context. You know, we learn who we are and at lessence by looking at how other people respond to us, and most everything that we experience is happening through social feedback. So yeah, I mean, for me, it's impossible to look at some of these things out without considering the social context. In researching the book, I was I'm not an anthropologist, of course, but I was shocked to learn that that that viewpoint

is really supported by what we know of evolution. You know, we were I talked a little bit about in the book about what I read in anthropology. We were not the species that anyone would bet on to have survived. There were other human like species that were bigger, that were more resilient, that were able to withstand physical attacks more, and we were not that. We were none of those things. There was only one thing that we had that was different from those other species that seemed matter, and it

was our ability to form and comprehend language. It was a small genetic aberration that allowed us to make more sophisticated sounds and understand those sounds, and language is the basis for social relationships. Once we were able to communicate with one another, we were able to become a social species. And that was the factor that made the difference, you know,

more than any of those other factors. And once I read that, it kind of made me even more believe that it's impossible to understand a lot of psychology without understanding you know, how we are fundamentally a species and each of us as individuals, you know, we are within a social world. We have to understand psychology within that

social experience. Yeah, so I think that there's just great value in integrating the evolutionary approach, the social psychology approach, the you know cognitive, the clinical, you know, bringing in the clinical as not something so separate from these basic human needs, but as just maybe addictions to these needs in ways, you know, I think is a good way

of thinking about it. Great stuff. Now, are you your clinical by training, right, Yeah, you're clinical psychologist, So you get a chance to navigate these different realms of psychology and kind of see how the abnormal can inform the normal. I'm putting all this these words in quotes, by the way normal you know, we're all weird, right, and what

is weird? You know, Like I kind of just have this radical openness where like nothing is objectively weird, you know, as long as it's not hurting someone and it's not being maladaptive to your own goals, like, it's not weird, you know. Yeah, clinical psychologists would say that as long as your weirdness is not impairing your ability to function, then it's not you know, it's not a symptom, it's not disorder. But clinical is just as siloed as I

think all the other areas that you're talking about. I really like the idea of more work across the sub disciplines of psychology because we are all able to, you know, answer questions about basic human needs if we combine forces, and you know, we reunite as one discipline of psychology rather than a bunch of separate sub disciplines. Oh, I

couldn't agree more. This is a big part of why I like to have this podcast, and I get to talk with people from every single sub discipline of psychology and then kind of be like, oh, Mitch Prinstein said to me last week, blah blah blah. You know all

he says like it's kind of exciting. You know, I'm such a psychologist, such a psychology nerd at the level which the integration excites me, you know, and my listeners and my listeners get to experience this integration in real time, so it's a hopefully a good experience for the listeners. So I want to ask one last question because I feel like we've covered so much ground today. What are

the implications for parenting? You know, we talked a little about clinical implications, about the need to grow up already, become mature, stop caring so much of more popularity, But what about parenting. You're raising a young one and you want to prevent them from what happened to you as a childhood. Yeah, so, you know, I think that one of the important things is that parents do need to focus on this stuff. You know, don't just think kids will be kids, and if your kid is likable or not,

it doesn't matter. It does matter. You don't want your kids to be extremely excluded, rejected, ostracized. You know, there are pretty negative consequences that do come from that. So in the book, I talk about some pretty specific tips and ways of making sure that parents can make sure

that their kids turn out to be likable. But simultaneously, I think in this world of social media and status, you know, obsession, it's really important that parents are paying attention to reinforcing the right kind of popularity and they're not inadvertently making their kids desire status, because that is a pretty big problem. And if your kids are really caring too much about status, then you're setting them up

for a lifetime of disappointment, research would suggest. So I really really hope that parents are paying attention to popularity enough and to the right kind of popularity. I want to give you a little more opportunity as the last question now to just tell me how can we as adults choose the type of popularity that we want and why really is choosing liking over popularity and more beneficial

to us. Making yourself stand out and making other people feel weak or less significant is the way that people gain status. That's bad. That leads to addictions and depression and anxiety and relationship problems. Research says, but try to elevate others and make them feel valued and included. It's not just a nice thing to do, but it actually pays off for us as well, because the more likable we are, the better we do in our own relationships, the more healthy we are, believe it or not, the

better we are at our jobs. It leads to success, better higher pain salaries, and it leads to personal benefits. We're less likely to be anxious or depressed if we are in a community of people who truly like us, don't revere us, to respect us and want to emulate us, but truly like us and feel connected to us. It leads to all kinds of health and mental health benefits. That sounds good to me. I'm trying to cut down on my social media addiction, so you've helped me a

little bit that inspire me to do that. Thanks so much, Mitch for Channel. Thank you. I really appreciate it. I appreciate it too. Thank you so much for listening to the Psychology Podcast with doctor Scott Barry Kaufman. I hope you found this episode just as thought provoking as I did. If something you heard today stimulated you in some way, I encourage you to join in the discussion at the Psychology podcast dot com. That's the Psychology podcast dot com.