Michael Lewis || A Doctor Shares Life Lessons From His Experiences with Michael Jordan and Abraham Maslow

baseball players, and Olympic medal winners. He's the author of several books, including a memoir entitled The Balls in Your Court, where he shares life lessons from Michael Jordan, Phil Jackson, and non other than Abraham Maslow. Michael, thank you so much for chatting with me today. Thank you, Scott, thank you for inviting me. Does one even begin with someone like you? Will? I will say this, I've long said,

people say, well, who's your two dream dinner guests? You know, if you could pick anyone in the world, you know the people have that thought experiment, I say, Michael Jordan and Abraham Maslow, and you're actually someone whose existence intertwined with both of their existences. It's unfathomable to me. It's almost like a dream, a dream come true, that someone could actually do that. And you're no slouch yourself. I mean,

you're an awesome dude as well. You know. So this, this conversation today is not just you know, me talking to someone who knew these two. It's talking to a really cool human being who's done really cool, amazing things in their own lifetime, who happen to intersect with these two other people, as well as lots of other people. So yeah, again, how do I even start with someone like you? Well, that's a very generous introduction, Scott, I

will say that. Just imagine, as you're suggesting, imagine how fortunate it it has been to spend quality time behind the scenes with Michael Jackson, Phil Michael Jordan, Phil Jackson, Abraham Maslow and other inspiring teachers, and how exciting it would be to learn learn from them what it takes to be world class, what it takes to be the best version of Scott Berry, Kaufman or Michael Lewis, what

it takes to be successful. So the book that I've written, The Balls in Your Court, a Doctor, shares life lessons from Michael Jordan, phil Jackson, Abraham Maslow and other inspire hiring teachers attempts to share those life lessons and the really good news is works for all of us. That's the beauty of my time with them and my experience with them. Well, let's before we jump into all that, I'd like to start with your childhood a little bit.

You know, how does Selwyn growing up deep in the heart of Houston, Texas in the fifties, Like, how did those experiences shape shape who you became? Well, Houston, Texas, when I was growing up, we felt very proud of ourselves. We were the fourteenth largest city in the country and we had a population of six hundred thousand. Houston now is the fourth largest city in the country with a

population of six million. At the time, it was the wild West, and it was the late nineteen fifties, and if you were a white male and you worked hard, there was a good chance that you were going to be successful. And used at that time was it was really a sense of the new frontier, and there was a sense of unlimited opportunities. And when you look at all of the remarkable people who came out of Texas from that time, you knew there was this sense of

unlimited opportunity. Whatever your political affiliation. There was LBJ, there were both the Bush George Bush presidents. Even Eisenhower was born in Texas. Equally important, there was Willie Nelson, Johnny Mathis and Ben Hogan the Golfer, and Jimmy Demerit. So so Texas at that time really was an exciting place, very provincial, but an exciting place to grow up. And when you entered was a brandice as an undergraduate. Is that right? Correct? When you entered under you were eighteen

years old. You entered undergraduate, did you know what your You didn't know what your major was going to be at is that right? I was a frightened, directionless, insecure eighteen year old. And that was when Maslow came into my life, and that absolutely changed my life and has changed my life since then. For the next sixty years, Abraham Maslow was a mentor to me. Abraham Maslow, as you know, very well, changed the face of psychology at

the time. In the nineteen fifties and early sixties, Sigmund Freud dominated the field, and Sigmund Freud's idea of personality was based on his studying mentally unhealthy people, people who were psychotic and neurotic. And Abraham Maslow came up with this at the time radical revolutionary idea, which was, let's study the people in the world who were people that you and I would most admire, and let's see what their qualities are like, and let's see if that results

in a different theory of motivation and personality. And for this insecure, directionless eighteen year old, that was like the holy grail. I jumped on the bandwagon and I haven't gotten off since. And by the way, welcome aboard. It seems like you've jumped on that same bandwagon and have brought Maslow into the twenty first century and have helped give scientific validity to a lot of his theories. So, Scott, we're very grateful to your major contributions to Abraham Maslow. Well,

thank you. That doesn't mean a lot to me. Do you think Maswow would have liked me? What do you think he would have thought of me? In my book? I think he would have loved you. And I'll and I'll tell you why. Abraham Maslow in my experience and he was a mentor to me, and I spent a lot of quality time with him. He at the time, he certainly was a scientist and has spent time in Harry Harlowe's lab, who did these famous wire monkey studies,

so he had a lot of scientific background. But at the time, in the early sixties, he really was a revolutionary thinker. He was a philosopher. And I don't know if he knew Albert Einstein's famous quote, which was not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that

and what counts can't necessarily be counted. But he would have loved that because he was It really was a very exciting age of intellectual ferment, and Abraham Maslow hung out with Carlo with May, with Carlo May, with Gordon Alport, with so many of the great thinkers in psychology at the time. But he was so interested in getting his theories out there that he would have been thrilled to know that you would have come along and added scientific

validity to his to his theories. That's very touching to hear. I want to take you, know, take me back to Wednesday, March thirteenth of your junior year of college. Was at

nineteen sixty two. I'm making that up somewhere around Okay, so you're in Maslow's cramped office, piled with books and papers on every surface, and there was a rare life changing epiphany that occurred in his office where he looked at you and he solemnly said what he looked at me, and he said, someone is going to make a difference in the world of psychology. Why shouldn't it be you? And the ground shook. And as you know, they're not that many times in a person's life when the world changes.

But as you know also that went, particularly when you're feeling especially vulnerable, someone an adult or teacher, or someone influential in your life, can change your life. It can change the direction of your life. And that's what happened. And he may well have said that to many other students. But my reaction was I felt this thunderbolt of energy and confidence going through my body, and I thought, the great man just told me that the future of psychology

is in my hands. And as a result, I went to medical school because Abraham Maslow told me to go to medical school because at the time psychology was in its infancy, and he felt that being a psychiatrist, being a medical doctor and a psychiatrist, you had a chance to make a bigger impact. But just on that subject of how someone can influence you at a vulnerable moment. I think of the Duke coach Mike Krazuski, who said, sometimes the statement I believe in you can be even

more important than I love you. I think that's what happened that day. That's beautiful. So what was he like as as a lecturer? Did you what course did you take of his? Did you take more than one of his courses? I did. He taught an introductory course and then he taught an advanced course on motivation and personality, and he took that advanced course. You took that? Yes,

so you took that class. That's amazing. Okay. To tell me more about what he was like as a lecturer, I have the ones from his nineteen sixty two class. My feeling about Abraham Maslow was that he enjoyed teaching UH, but he was so involved in in UH and in getting his ideas out there, and his his sort of profound UH philosophical ideas which he understood changed the course

of psychology. UH. He was very interested in the reaction of students, and I think he may have used me as a sounding board in some way to find out, you know, how students were reacting to his course. But I think really he was more concerned with with UH uh Russians, with UH Rollo May and Gordon Alport and UH and his UH and his friends David Reesman and the people that he connected with and even Alan Watts.

He was very interested in Eastern philosophy, and I'm sure that if he'd lived longer, he would have had he would have pursued those interests and incorporated those interests to a greater extent. As you know, he coined the term peak experiences, and he was fascinated by Eastern religions. And it's tragic at so tragic that he diet at age sixty two. Yeah, oh, it's quite tragic. And then, as you know, he talked about the Plateau experience even more closer to the end of his death, which he said

was like lambs. It was like lounging in heaven, not getting so excited about it, That's what he said. Yeah, well, so that's incredible. So you were in both those classes. So let's go to the large lecture hall. Were you in like the front row? Like what can you take me back? There, like, like, can you describe the scenery? Can you tell the story? Like what was he like as a lecturer? I'll never be able to experience it, so can you tell me what it was like? Uh?

He was. He wasn't a dynamic lecturer. He was His uniform was more traditional that the uniform of the day was a white shirt, a traditional tie, a sport coat with with you know, padded sleeves. So he he he wore the uniform of the day and and wasn't an overly dynamic lecturer. He certainly was known as being a great man at the time. And it's interesting when I think about the reaction of the people in the class. My feeling is is that most people in the class,

it's like a bell shaped curve. As far as the reaction, maybe eighty percent of people thought this was interesting. I'm really glad I took this class. But a small percentage of people thought this is a waste of time, this isn't what it's bill to be. There too many fallacies in his theory. And then there was another ten percent, like Michael Lewis, who thought it was the holy Grail and felt it that this was something to pursue and

to give meaning to life. And sixty years later, I've continued on that bandwagon and actually wrote a book about Abraham Mass You wrote a book about you mean seeing more Colors? Correct? Bomb right here? Wait? So were you Were you in class with Aaronson, the social psychologist, because he took Maslow's lecture course as well. Did you know Aronson? I did not. I've read his books subsequently, but I did not remember him in the class at the time.

It was Elliott Aronson has seen his professor Josh Meers. Okay, so, uh, you know when I read it, when I read the you know, the journals his personal mass those personal journals, he talks sometimes about the students as being like little shits. He feels under unappreciated. Towards the end of the journals, he talks about, you know, he didn't feel that way at Brooklyn College, But I feel like when he was at Brandeis he felt or no, no, maybe that was more when he was at Brooklyn he was a Brooklyn

College leader. Is that is that right after college before? So when he came to Brandeis, I felt like he wasn't he felt as though he personally felt like he wasn't as appreciated by the students as when he was at Brooklyn College. And I was wondering if you picked up on that. So he said that some of the students felt as though he was like preaching to them, you know, like like being like lecturing to them, like you know, to like to buckle up and be a

responsible adult already. And some of the students did appreciate that. Did did you see any of that? Now? I think you're I think you're onto to something. My my my feeling is is that at the time, you have to understand the intellectual currents at the time, and uh, there was a trend, a sort of an anti authority trend. So if you could, you could get your intellectual stripes by criticizing the great man, so criticizing Maslow and and

not appreciating him as as much as he would have liked. Uh, was was an intellectual current of the time in that h it was. It was much broader than that. For example, books that were important were the only crowd by David Reesman, who talked about being interdirected versus outer directed. So the idea was was that you came up with your own ideas and you weren't overly influenced by people in authority.

So again there was earning your intellectual stripes by being anti in this case anti authority and in this case anti Maslow. I think also there was there was a current of Abraham Maslow came from a sort of a lower middle class family, and those were the students that he taught at Brooklyn College before he came to Brandeis, and I think he very much identified with those students, who often were first generation college students and were working

very hard. And obviously it was a generalization, but I think that that part of him felt that there was a sense of entitlement among many of the students at Brandeis. I certainly didn't feel that way, and I think that was a hypersensitivity on his part, because I think most of the students were highly motivated and very dedicated. But I think there was an element of his feeling that way. Yeah, well, you said he wasn't dynamic of a lecture, but you

said in the book you thought he was charismatic. Maybe that you said it wasn't full inced by your prior conceptions of him as a legend. But whenever I hear I have audio recordings of him giving lectures. Unfortunately I don't have the video, but I have the all audio, and they sound to me very charismatic. But again, maybe I'm influenced. I think that's uh yeah, I think that's our our bias, since we we worship him, and so it's going to be our bias to feel that one.

But he's very funny. I mean, I listen, I have all the recordings of his essolent Institute like public lectures from sixty seven to sixty eight, and he's he's funny. I mean, is it just maybe I just have a similar sense of humor as him or something. Well, you know, the definition of a someone who has a good sense of humor is if they laugh at my jokes. So so I think no, I think he did have a

wonderful sense of humor. But again you have to remember that these are often twenty year olds who may not be quite sophisticated enough or mature enough to really appreciate his sense of humor that you and I may have been more appreciative of later on. Well, it's so interesting how chrisma can be in the eye of the beholder, I guess, but correct his writing was certainly dynamic. You know,

you read his writing and it's just it's almost poetic. So, hey, how did you make the transition from maybe I'm going to be a psychiatrist too, I'm gonna be an orthopedic surgeon for sports teams. Where did you make that transition? Well, when I went to medical school, I, as I said, previously went to medical school to be a psychiatrist because the great man Abraham Maslow told me to go to

medical school. And while in medical school on the psychiatry rotation, I would have these wonderful sessions with patients and they would tell me that they never saw things so clearly, and they were so grateful for my insight, and I would come out on cloud nine. There was just one problem. The following week, they hadn't responded to my brilliant insights, and they hadn't done one hundred and eighty degree personality change or gotten a new spouse or gotten a new job.

And I was just too immature to understand that people didn't didn't change personalities so dramatically. So I literally became an orthopedic surgeon a degree h reaction to seeing immediate tangible results. If the hip was worn out, we could put a new hip joint in. If the wrist was broken, we could set it. The beautiful irony is that I think all of medicine really is is psychology and nurturing and relating to patients. So it's come full circle. But

that was how I went from psychiatry to orthopedic surgery. Okay, And one of your earliest jobs of the Chicago White Sox, you encountered Bill Vick, Is that right? And Bill Beck? Yes? Beck? Is that wreck? Yes? Bill Beck? I hope he forgives me for his name. Tell me you think he's an

unforgettable character? Is that right? Yes, Bill Veck. I do have to tell you that when I was looking for jobs, I was in the military in England, and I went all around the country looking at different job opportunities, and I met these two doctors in Chicago, and one of them, doctor William Meltzer, was the first, one of the first people in the country to be performing hip replacements. And they taught at the university. And then in the interview they told me, and by the way, we're the doctors

for the Chicago White Sox. So I started trembling, hopefully not noticeable by them, and I thought, how much am I going to have to pay these gentlemen to have the opportunity to be the Chicago a White Sox doctor, because it was such an extraordinary opportunity for someone just joining a practice. But Bill Veck was a fascinating character. He had a wooden leg, and he cut a hole

in his wooden leg. And the first time I saw him put a cigarette out in the hole that he'd cut out in his wooden leg and used as an ash tray, my eyes almost popped out of my head. He also was one of the most creative people on earth. He once showed me in a huge file of index cards with thousands of ideas on them. Bill Veck is the person who invented the exploding scoreboard. He invented putting,

taking a bow after hitting a home run. He put the names of players on the back of uniforms he had in Chicago, Harry Carey singing take me out to the ballgame in the seventh inning stretch. His idea was, it's more exciting to give one fan a thousand cans of beer rather than a thousand fans one can of beer. He was just an incredibly creative person. But he also to me define that the true definition of sophistication, which is he was so comfortable with himself that he made

everyone around him more comfortable. So, for example, he'd had many as I said, he had an amputated leg. He did many surgeries. He was a medic during the Korean War, so he knew how to talk to doctors in their lingo. He had written books, so he knew how to talk to the media people in their lingo. You would hear him talk about Faulkner and Hemingway as well as baseball players, and he knew how to talk to the average fan in their lingo. He also had a wonderful sense of humor.

He had been the owner of the Saint Louis Browns in the late thirties when they had the lowest attendance in the league. And one story that he told me was that someone called the stadium and asked about the Saturday matinee and asked about what time the game was, and Bill Veck happened to answer the phone, even though he was the owner of the team, and he said, how many are in your party? So the person said six people. So Bill Vick said what time would be

convenient for you to start the game. So he had a wonderful sense of humor. He was a real character. And there is a book called Vecka's and Rick, which I would highly recommend. Very cool. And so you knew him personally, Oh yes, I spent several years with him. And what I didn't do at the time was keep a diary so that when I did have the opportunity to be the doctor for the Chicago Bulls, I kept a diary, which was which I was a very good decision in retrospect, I'm glad. I'm glad you did. I'm

glad you did. So how did you get the job with the Chicago Bulls? Was that homeslice? What's his name? Krause? Jerry Krause? Over there? Was it thanks to him? You know? Uh? Jerry Krause was a had been a doctor in our practice, and he knew our reputation and he wanted to make a change in the medical staff and uh he so

he picked our group. And uh, I know you've had experiences in your life, for example, when you were accepted to the PhD program in Yale where you you get a phone call and It's one of the exciting moments of your life. So getting a phone call from Jerry Krause saying you're it, You're the doctor for the Championship Bulls was it was one of those extraordinary I I just got a chill for you. That's I mean, I can't that's incredible. Well, this is is this nineteen ninety six?

When is this ninety seven? It was? And it was actually on my birthday and it was nineteen Yes, nineteen ninety six. So you were there for the last dance? Correct? What do you think of the documentary the Last Dance? By the way, I mean, are you in it? Are you in any of the images? If you if you blink, you'll see me very quickly. Yeah, if you toss the

screen at some moments. Because you had the front front court's seat to the whole last dance, how many people can how we hold let's just let's just step back a second. You just you know, that's that's a that's an understated correct you. I'm gonna repeat this, I repeat this. You had front court play, you were on the player's bench during the last dance of the Chicago Bulls. Well, I just have to tell you one story about that to give you an idea. One reaction is that it

was such a wonderful nostalgia trip. Michael Jordan. Here we had in our midst the greatest athlete on the planet. And as you know, Abraham Maslow invented the concept of peak experiences that he coined that phrase, and Michael Jordan was a continual peak experience creator for all of us. But when you're talking about the impact, it wasn't just Chicago, it wasn't just the United States. It was all over the world, and people all over the world saw me

on the bench. But the story that just was most remarkable to me was a patient of mine who was in the Peace Corps in Mauritania, which is in the Sahara Desert, called me to tell me that he saw me on on Moroccan television, which was in French. So that's an example of how extraordinarily widespread the Michael Jordan's impact was in the world. But I did have another

reaction was it was as a wonderful nostalgia trip. But I thought they did that they did a disservice to Jerry Krause, the general manager, Jerry Krause, Unfortunately, died a few years ago and wasn't around to defend himself. And admittedly he wasn't a people person. He wasn't He was a pr disaster, but in his own way, he was a genius. It's important to remember that Jerry Krause, the general manager, brought in Phil Jackson when no one else

was interested, and Phil Jackson he discovered Scottie Pippen. He brought in Tony Koukoach, which was really the first major person from Europe to come into the NBA. And he brought in Dennis Rodman, which was obviously a potentially explosive decision. But I have to tell you one of my favorite Jerry Krause stories to just illustrate who the man was. One night, he was his bags were packed and he was leaving the United Center, which is where the Bulls

were playing, and it was during the playoffs. So I said, Jerry, where are you going. He said, I'm going to Europe to scout a player. So I said, Jerry, it's the middle of the playoffs. As if he didn't know that, why don't you just watch tape? And he said, I'm going to Europe to scout And during the tape during the game and to watch his body language on the bench.

So that to me was a very powerful, profound lesson of what a perfectionist he was and how uh you know, how far he carried his craft as well as Michael Jordan and other world class athletes carried their craft. Would would you say you were friends with Jerry Kross? I

actually was. I had the what was in the extraordinary position of having a relationship with all the each of the players and Phil Jackson, the coach, and we had so much in common when Kindred Spirits and Jerry Crouse when we were on the road, the the the team doctors during the playoffs would would be with the players on the on their private plane and we would be with them in the playoffs, and Jerry Cross often would

UH have meals with the medical staff. So uh, so I I was in the really unique position of having a relationship with each of the different UH members of the of the team. Why didn't you why weren't you like the U N Why didn't you like bring together piece so that there could be more bull seasons? You could have been the one uh the UH well, as I said before, Jerry Cross, UH was the one who hired Jackson, and for a long time the relationship really worked.

And then Phil Jackson's book Sacred Hoops, which was I think published in nineteen ninety five, he was still in very good terms with Jerry Crouse and credited Jerry Crouse with a lot of the ideas in his book. But this may shock you to know, Scott, but sometimes egos get in the way, and I think that's what eventually happened, and the relationship deteriorated, and it was beyond my ability

to repair it. I mean, you told me, you said in the book that you in one conversation you had with Phil Jackson, he admitted, you know, maybe I've been a little bit too hard on Jerry Kraus. He said that to you. Is that right? Yes, Yes, that's huge,

that's huge, well, Phil Jackson. One thing that Phil Jackson did was Phil Jackson was a master manipulator of each individual on the team, and he had a very high EQ, a very high emotional quotient and knew just what buttons to push for each player, and he also knew which button buttons to push for the team as a whole. And I can tell you that traveling with the Bulls must have been similar to traveling with the Beatles. There was so many distractions. Wherever we went, there were thousands

of people. So his ability to keep the team focused was extraordinary. And one of the techniques that he used was the Rudyard Kipling wolf pack idea. The strength of the wolf is the pack, and the strength of the pack is the wolf. And it was very much us against the world, and so he acknowledged that part of that was us against Jerry Krause, and that he did acknowledge to me privately that that probably went too far.

So tell me about Game six NBA Finals, June nineteen ninety seven, Well, that that was one of my That was my first year as an orthopedic surgeon, and so was I was. First of all, I was an the orthopedic surgeon. I was a fan. I had had season tickets before we were the doctors for the team, and I had written books, so I had the mentality of

a writer. So I got there two hours early just to soak up the atmosphere, and I sat in the upper bleachers and there, believe it or not, there was a fan on the row near me who was practicing as heckling two hours before the game, he was saying, go back to Utah, go back, go back. And then two hours before the game, the Utah Jazz were hitting ninety percent of their shots. So if I had if I had placed a bet at that time, I would have bet the mortgage against the Bulls because the Jazz

were just done, stopped. But when they came out for their last warm up thirty minutes before the game, they only hit thirty percent of their shots. And I'd asked Bill Winnington, the seven foot center for the Bulls, about what it was like playing in the finals, and he said, the pressure is just staggering. It's it's extraordinary. And he said the technique that he used was that when he was on the court during a game, he had to think, I'm on a playground. You can't think I'm in the

you know, the NBA Finals. You've You've got to get your your you know, your mind in a more relaxed, in the flow in the zone place. During the game. Uh, the Bulls were behind much of the game, and I was actually on the bench and toward the end of the game, I heard Michael Jordans say to Steve Kerr, be ready, you heard him say it. I did. I've heard him. Oh god, you actually heard him say that?

Who and uh? And so Michael Jordan was double teamed, and then he passed the ball to Steve Kerr, who did what every every kid on the planet would hope to do, hit the winning basket in the NBA Finals. And Steve Kerr, in his wonderful, self effacing way, later on said, Uh, what Michael Jordan actually said to me was it, I get too nervous in these situations, so I'm gonna pass the ball to you. And everyone laughed, you know, hilariously, including Michael Jordan when he said that.

But then at the end of the game, I was in the the winner's locker room, soaked with champagne, high fiving all the players, and actually held Michael Jordan's Finals MVP trophy hoping some of it would rub off on me. So it was one of the a night that I wanted to last forever, and it was a glorious memory. Now, you know, in Hamilton, do you see the musical Hamilton? Yes? Do you know, there's like a phrase like in the room where it happened exactly you were in the room,

you know, I mean it's amazing. So, well, tell me some stories about people don't realize that the fate of the whole series could actually be in your hands, and the decision that you make about certain injuries. So can you tell me about two decisions you had to make, one with Scottie Pippen and then one with Jordan himself. Yes, Well, there was a playoff game. This was on May twenty fifth,

nineteen ninety eight. It was in Indianapolis and the Bulls were playing the Indiana Pacers, and in the first quarter, Michael Jordan went up for a rebound and was poked in the eyelid and blood was pouring from his eye. So he and I walked off the court together, and I had a decision to make, and that was do I suture the eyelid, which would have meant that the blood would have stopped, but he couldn't have gone back

back into the game. Or do I scary strip the laceration, which meant that he could have gone back into the game, but that the wound could have come open and blood could have started pouring out again. So for a moment, while I was making that decision, in my mind's eye, I saw the headline in the Chicago Tribune next morning, Chicago Bulls lose playoff. Doctor Michael Lewis drops the ball. Yeah. So so it's not just stressful for the players. The

doctors sometimes have stressful moments as well. But the U and actually in the last dance you can see an image of Michael Jordan with his stery strips and fortunately the stay strips held. But it was a profound lesson for me and humility, because I could have done everything right and the results might not have worked out well. So it was it was again a profound lesson in humility. Another that was a very where I learned an important

life lesson was with Bill Winnington. I had to tell Bill Winnington, who sustained a foot injury, that he couldn't participate in the playoffs in nineteen ninety seven, and of course he was upset, but his reaction was, I've had a good run. I've been in the league for ten years. Most people are only in for three or four years,

and so I'm okay with it. And one lesson that I try to tell to my to the residents that I work with, and my children and grandchildren is the test of a character isn't just how things are going when things are going well, but how you handle those situations, but how you handle adversity. And to me, that was a powerful example of the way to handle adversity. Bill

Linton seems like a really classy guy. Yes, you also asked about Scottie Pippen, And again, this was my first year as the team doctor, and it was a playoff game against Miami, and I had to tell one of the fifty greatest players in the history of the game that he couldn't go back in for the second half of the game because he also sustained a foot injury.

And he was very upset with me because he wanted to go back in, but he eventually agreed that it was the right decision, and I eventually convinced him that we needed to operate on his foot. So he and I flew to New York and a doctor William Hamilton, who was a world authority on foot injuries, and I operate on Scottie Pippen's foot, and I'm pleased to say that he did very well. That's great. I'm glad he did well. So about Michael Jordan in a second, what was what was he like one on one. I mean,

that's that's incredible. You you puck him up from all these thousands of people watching him. It's just you and this guy, Michael Jordan in a room, just you and him. You know, everyone else is waiting outside. You know what's it like just being in that one room with him, one on one? How would he describe the way he talked to you? You know? What was that like? Well?

There I have several stories about being with Michael Jordan that even though there have been so many books and articles and specials written about Michael Jordan that not everyone knows about. And one story is that ten minutes before a game we were playing Minnesota that night, and he had such severe pain in his neck that he couldn't move his neck in any direction. He couldn't move one inch in any direction. So I naively suggested, I said, Michael,

why don't you not play tonight? And he looked at me like I was crazy and said, people have come from hundreds and sometimes thousands of miles away, and I'm not going to disappoint them. So his dedication of the game and dedication to his fans, I think not everybody really realizes and understands. I'll give you an important number. During his time with the Chicago Bulls, the Bulls were

in one hundred and seventy nine playoff games. I think you can maybe guess how many games Michael Jordan played in the answer. One hundred and seventy nine. That's remarkable, that's amazing. So his dedication to the game was one quality that I think is underappreciated. I'll tell you another very personal story. He and I were in the training room together and as you know, his father was murdered in a robbery, and so his alleged his father's alleged

killers came on TV. And Michael looked at the TV and he looked at me and he just shrugged his shoulders. And everyone knew, and I knew how profoundly and deeply he loved his father. His father was his best friend. But my interpretation of that was that he was so focused, he was so able to eliminate distractions. He was such a zen warrior that he knew that focusing on his father's alleged killers wouldn't bring his father back, so there was no reason to spend any energy on that. And

to me, that was a profound personal experience. Another example to me that I think is quite remarkable of his ability to focus was, in more than ten years of being in front of the media, night after night, thousands of questions, good questions, inane questions, mean spirited questions, he never once he had such self control that he never once said something really foolish. That's that's quite remarkable. It

is remarkable. But was he cordial to you? Like? What was he like as a you know, what was it like to talk to him? I guess is what I'm saying. Uh. He first of all, he had a close relationship with the previous doctor and so he wasn't he wasn't pleased when Jerry Krause brought the new medical team in. So we really had to earn our stripes. And uh, it took it took a while for him to have a grudging respect toward toward mege which I think eventually did

did happen. But if you if you exall him on the street, you know, walking down the street, like he would he would remember you, right, Yes, he'd be like, oh, Michael Lewis, you gave me the suitor and yeah, no, cool, very cool. Okay, So the God's talk about Dennis Rodman. Tell me, tell me about your experiences with that cut. So my favorite Dennis Rodman story is that I was treating Dennis and we were two weeks into his injury,

and he was assiduously avoiding my brilliant advice. And then, by pure coincidence, he was in the training room talking to Steve Kerr about Janice Joplin rock Star, and I just sort of butted into the conversation and said that I had heard Janis Joplin concert. So suddenly the wheels started turning, and Dennis uh looked at me with renewed respect, and clearly he thought to himself, if this dude was cool enough to go to a Janice Joplin concert, maybe

his medical IQ is higher than I thought. So maybe I had to start listening to him. And he did, and he recovered from this injury and was a significant contributor to the playoffs that year. That's pretty that's pretty awesome. You see, we don't know just to what extent you're influence on some of these people. You know, just one, just one other story that relates to you, Because I loved your story about Kobe Bryant, and you're and Kobe

dunking over you in high school. So my somewhat analogus story was that one day in Utah after practice, the medical staff were shooting around and then we all got on the bus afterward to go back to the hotel. And I had no idea anyone was watching. But Phil Jackson, in a very loud voice, turned to everyone on the bus and said, doctor Michael Lewis has the worst left handed jump shot I've ever seen. I don't know how

you how you would take that. The other the one other story that I'll tell you is that my first night as a doctor, we had. One of the major perks was we parked in the player's parking lot and there was an attendant who started our car, you know as just before we got out to the parking lot, and there were hundreds of people around waiting for the players. And the very first night I went out and hundreds of people were shouting Michael, Michael and I and I

literally was so naive. I thought to myself, how do they know my name? Michaels, I got it. That's hilarious, that's really hilarious. So did you when when they when the when the Bulls won the ring the champions Did you get a championship ring? I have, Yes, I have two championship rings. What you have it? You have two Chicago Bulls Championship rings. I do that? Do you have it with you? Can you hold it up? I can

go get it if you want me to go get it. Yes, yes, I want to take a screen capture of it, and you have to you'll have to wait for it. I'm gonna tweet it. What so, I'm sure sure how to show it? Oh my gosh, that is right. Let me say, let's see, Yes, I see if I if I were you, I'd be wearing that like every day. Why do you not wear that? Like twenty four to seven? There's someone else in this story that I want to talk about, because there's a very tragic story which people can watch

documentaries about Unsolved Mystery with Brian Williams. Right, But you knew Brian Williams as a human a person, but I thought maybe you can kind of bring him to life for a moment. Well, uh, Brian Williams was a fascinating person. For those who aren't familiar with Brian Williams, he was with the team for a very short period of time in nineteen ninety seven. He was very different from any other professional athlete I've known. Brian Williams was brilliant. He

was a philosopher. He was interested in Nietzsche. We first connected when we were on the Bulls plane on our way to Utah, when most of the players were either playing cards or listening to music on their headphones. He was reading a book called You Must be Kidding Mister Finnman, which was about a physicist. So and I had read the book, and I knew about mister about mister Finnman, so we connected on that level. Brian Williams ran with the Bulls and Pamplona. He hitchhiked all over the world.

He was traveled all over the world. He played three musical instruments. His father was the lead singer for the Platters, a famous group in the nineteen fifties, and his mother, who we met at a Bulls celebration victory party after they won the fifth championship. He was a very elegant woman who was an anthropologist. So he was a fascinating person.

He had a pilot's license. He invited me to to fly with him, and he signed a contract with the Detroit Pistons, and we talked about getting together when whenever he would come to town, and I really thought that our friendship would last for many, many years. But tragically he was on a boat with his brother, and no one really knows all of the circumstances, but it appears that he was murdered on and the boat and tragically, you know, his life was taken when he was approximately

thirty years old. That must have been very hard for you when you heard the news. It was it was very hard for me. But I think about his mother who had two sons and his uh so, Brian was was was murdered and his son apparently died of an overdose, so she had to grieve over the loss of her two sons. So that to me, is is just an unbearable tragedy. Yeah, really unbearable. So are you in touch? Who are who are you still in touch with? From the Bulls Dynasty? Like do you ever give like Steve

Kerr call and be like, yo, what's up, Steve? Like what's going on? Man? I am still I'm still in touch with Bill Winnington, the seven foot center who is now an announcer and has been an announcer for the Bulls for many years. And I'm also still in touch with Wilbert Wood, who was the all star pitcher knuckleball picture for the Chicago White Sox during the during the late seventies. I love it. I love it. Do you? Okay? Well, well, tell me some about your own, you know sort of books.

You have other books. You have one world of View of seven Continents, you have Seeing More Colors. Again, I'm gonna put this up invitation to joy, you know, tell me about your other books. Well, I have been extraordinarily fortunate that I have been able to travel. I've been able to travel to all seven continents, and so I have written books and published photographs from all seven continents. And I've always loved quotations. So there's a quotation to

a company each of those photographs. And as we've discussed earlier, I am extraordinarily grateful to Abraham Maslow for giving giving a direction to my life. And I have been on the Abraham Maslow bandwagon for sixty years. And the book that I wrote, Seeing More Colors described the different qualities of someone on the road to self actualization that Abraham Maslow described. Let me read one, Let me read something the value of friendship. Socrates wrote about how important friendship

was to him. Quote, all people have their fancies. Some desire horses and others dogs, and some are fond of gold and others of honor. But I have a passion for friends. I should greatly prefer a real friend to all the gold of Darius. And there's a picture that accompanies that. You know, I I dedicate my whole book Transcendent to Abraham Aslow, a dear friend I never met. But I'm very happy to say that, you know, I meet a new friend today with you, and and it's real,

it's uh, we actually talked to each other. So I just really want to thank you so much for appearing on the Psychology podcast and offering us your life lessons. Are there any last final sort of words of wisdom you want to offer? Yes, thank you, I would. I would say that one if I could leave you with one or two thoughts, One would be the importance of and and this is something that Maslow felt very strongly about the importance of being connected to a cause greater

than yourself. And all of the proceeds from my books go to the Himalayan Cataract Project. This is an organization co founded by my friend Jeff Tabin, a professor of ophthalmology at Stanford, and he goes all over the world performing cataract surgery and teaching the local physicians how to perform the surgery. And my wife and I observed him in Ghana performing this surgery and for twenty five dollars an eye, people who've been blind for years suddenly the

next day after surgery can see perfectly. It is such a miracle. So all of the proceeds of my books go to the Himalayan Cataract Project. Another final message that I would want to leave with you is the importance in this time of COVID to maintain perspective, and anytime is an occasion, to rise to the occasion. And I certainly would in no way ever want to minimize, quite the opposite, the significance of COVID. But I have I am blessed to have one hundred and three year old mother,

And when I think about her life. During her lifetime, she has survived the pandemic of nineteen nineteen where fifty million people died. She has survived World War One, World War two, the Great Depression, the Holocaust, So many major crises, and we have lived through them, we have overcome them. So I would want to end on a message of hope and a message of this is a time that can bring out the best in each of us. Love that what a life, Michael wis, what a life you've had.

It's not over yet, but so thar Wa of life. Thanks again for being on this episode. Truth. Thank you so much. Thank you thanks for listening to this episode of the Psychology Podcast. If you'd like to react in some way to something you heard, I encourage you to join in the discussion at the Psychology podcast dot com. That's the Psychology Podcast dot com. Thanks for being such a great supporter of the show, and tune in next time for more on the mind, brain, behavior, and creativity.