Michael Gervais || Creating a Living Masterpiece

it's great to have Michael Gervais on the podcast. Doctor Gervai is a world renowned high performance psychologist and industry visionary. Over the course of twenty years working with world leading performers, Doctor Gerveai has developed a psychological framework that allows people

to thrive in pressure packed environments. His clientele consists of the NFL's Seattle Seahawks, countless Olympic medalists, MVPs from every major sport, world record holders, internationally acclaimed music artists, and corporate leaders. Doctor Gervay is a host of the popular Finding Mastery podcast that explores the psychology as some of the world's most extraordinary thinkers and doers. Doctor Jervey and NFL coach Pete Carroll founded Compete to Create, an online

and live masterclass for the mind. They have worked with more than three thousand employees at Microsoft alone on the mental skills and strategies to unleash one's potential. Doctor Gervay and Pete Carrol have co authored the recently released audible original called Compete to Create. Also, Jervai is a published, peer reviewed author and recognized speaker and optimal human performance.

He's been featured by NBC, ABC, Fox, CNN, ESPN, NFL Network, Wall Street Journal, New York Times, Outside Magazine, Wired, ESPN Magazine, The Harvard Business Review, and others. Was that enough of a bio there, Mike, and I get to be fortunate to be Scott BARERR Kaufman's friend. I love it, Mike. It is so great to have you on the show today, if I may call you, Mike. Of course, I've been looking forward to this with you been looking forward to

it as well. I think it's been maybe a couple of years since you've last been on a psychology podcast. Congratulations on everything that you've been putting together. And it's not lost on me the work that you've invested in trying to understand how to add to the body knowledge of our beautiful field. So well done, mate, Well thank you. That really does mean a lot to me. It's nice to have that noticed. That hard work. So let's talk

about compete to create. It's an audible book now, I mean it was a training course and now you've turned it with Pete into an audible book. Why audible? Why that format? Well, I'm a fan of listening as a form of learning. I really like the visual and auditory systems as part of learning. So that's why we started

the course. And then the reason we wanted to do an audible book, an Audible Originalist it's called is as an extension to the podcast experience for people and as an extension that you can listen to some stories rather than read them. And we will get to a book at some point, but we wanted to start with Audible as we're fans of what they've done. Yeah, they're great. I think a lot of people are really moving to

audible these days. I think, I mean, I've sold more copies of my book on Audible than the hardcover version, especially during this pandemic. This might just just be exactly what the doctor ordered for a lot of people. Your book on audible. Well, you know, we had a lot of fun putting together this interactive relationship between stories and science and very tangible takeaways, you know, Like that's the

thing about our field is that it's invisible. Yeah, and we're working on the interior life, which is incredibly tricky, you know, to try to illuminate and create something that is noticeable in the way that we can change because it's an internal, private world that we're talking about. So I think we found the sweet spot between side. It's fun stories that he and I banter back and forth, and then obviously the takeaway tools. Well, let me step back a second, like where did you meet Pete Carroll?

How did that happen that kis met? It was a mutual friend put us together and so they had assumed that we knew each other based on our world views, and so I said no and he said no. And so this person put us together over a mutual I'm sorry, over a dinner and it was just electric. It was

a great dinner, great conversation. We talked about, you know, obviously our world views, We talked about the science and the art that intersection of psychology, and then we talked about our calling for generativity, our calling to give, and we both had some nonprofit deep roots and nonprofit arena, and so we talked about that as well. Yeah, there are lots of areas of mutual interest between you and him, and the vision and philosophy seem to match quite well.

What does the phrase compete to create mean? And I asked this because when I was on your show recently, we had a fun discussion about the word competition, and I want to concede something to you. Maybe that's ironic we're talking about competition, but what I liked about that conversation is that you convinced me that the word competition doesn't have to be this winner takes all sort of spirit, which maybe I had been thinking too much along those

lines prior. Well for good reason, because if we were to ask somebody off the street, or even if you were to google, you know, something on your phone for the word competition, it would certainly come up being better than others. You know. And if you go back to the Latin origins of the word, it is to strive together, to work together. And so when we go back to the origins, it is like it's beautiful, you know, it's this idea of working together, striving, straining together to figure

out potential. And it maps on that you know, biblic saying about iron Sharpen's iron. You know, it maps on to this idea that we create a rising tide together. It maps onto the idea of put your life fest on first, so that you can be there to help bring the best out of others even in dire times. So it really is this idea of the relationship between

and the relationship between two people. But certainly we're double clicking on that and saying the relationship within yourself, and then we're extending it to the relationship with mother nature and so, you know, and not competing in the sense, but building the relationship to help to grow. And again it starts with yourself with others and then with mother nature. But your your question was about how do we come up with the title. As you can tell, we are

not marketing you know, dynamos here. And so we sat in a room for hours and we had all these inspired words about like what we wanted our company to be, and we you know, and we had all really good words, you know, were the classic you know, Latin origin words and somewhere of Asian influence and some were, you know, like American words that we are, English words that we love, and so we're frustrated because we couldn't find the agreement. And so it kind of boiled down to, okay, well, Pete,

what's what's what's the core word in your philosophy? And he said, yeah, you know, compete And he said, well what's yours? And I said create, And so I'll explain my philosophy in a minute. And so we looked at each other. He said, wait, wait, is it create to compete? No? No, no, compete to compete to create? And then he goes, wait see to see like from the seas to the you know or whatever, and so we just laughed and we said, yeah, yeah, okay, let's just go with it. It's weird, let's go with it.

Compete to create and so it really means work your ass off, compete your ass off to create a living masterpiece. And so that's the essence behind it. Yeah, I think I don't think it's a weird title at all. Maybe that's just because I love the word create, you know that that's exciting to me. And I was wondering what your thoughts were on creativity and how you define that word. Okay, well, so now like I'm going to get step out of the margins of my lane into the square center of

your lane. Here I don't so for me is when you create, it's the act of sorting something out that's new to you. And innovation is sharing something that is new to others. And so the creative process, I think is the artistic creative process is one of the highest expression mechanisms that we have, and it requires a command

of inner self. It requires a command of craft, and it requires the ability to be in the present moment, and it requires vulnerability and courage, and artistic expression, I think is one of the highest forms of being human. And so you know, it snapped into my philosophy, which is every day is an opportunity to create a living masterpiece. And if I could edit it slightly, it would be

co create. But because it's a relationship you know, with self, others and mother nature, spiritual, if you will, the co creating. But not to confuse myself, it's I love the work create, So I want to I want to pause there and say, remind me how you see, because I've read your books, But remind me how you see and define the work create. There are very different definitions, as you know, and in the psychological literature there's the definition of creativity as novelty

and meaningfulness. It has to have both components. But I like the return of the old humanistic sort of just simple definition, like the role may encouraged to create. He's like, creativity is just that you bring into being anything that didn't exist before. I'm like, you know what, I'm cool

that I kind of like this bringing into being part. Well, that's the so'm I snap into the role of my piece as well, which is when and it's new to you, right, So when you do something that's new to you, that's part of the creative expression, and then when you share it with others that's innovation and that that that helps me sort out the difference between the two. And but the creative expression is awesome. It's the spontaneous spontaneity of it, but also the planning that goes ahead of it and

the structure to break structure. I mean, I love that idea from form to break form, from form to form less. I love that idea. Yeah, I do too. Is this related all to the Bruce Lee water of course it is, right, Yeah, of course it is. But it's also like part of my training and yours is about structure and form, and that's the gift that science can give us, you know. And then at some point we need to understand, well, where do we break structure and form and if we

you know, triple click on the idea of form. The inside of sports psychology, we often talk about pre performance routines and so having routines to help us get to a place that we can be free. And I'm not a huge fan of pre performance routines, and I know the field and the industry is you know, doesn't like me to say that so much because it's one of the core mental skills. But I want to just put

a note out there that it's a substandard state. So doing pre performance routines is substandard to the actual state of being here, being fully present and having this foundational approach to life, which is, yeah, no, I've got what it takes, and I know how to adjust, and I have some serious skills and I love challenges. So when I do this appraisal, that's you know, a nerd word that you and I like. When I do this appraisal of my internal and external. My internal skills are my

external resources or challenge that I have. What it takes, I can figure it out. And so anyways, it's a long way of me saying that I love the idea form to break form. It's wonderful. Patricia Stokes, there's a great book she wrote that not many people have read, but it's good. It's creativity from constraints about how she goes through some of the best jazz musicians, artists, they put explicit constraints on their process and so they could

be more creative. It's actually counterintuitive that we think that the more options we have, the more creative will be, when that's not the case at all, just at leads

to being overwhelmed. I had a conversation with the former director of DARPA, which is a very significant and important innovative arm of the military, and she explained to me that the way that they would create and innovate is by creating constraints that were nearly unrealistic, and so that she'd say, I'd cobble together, you know, seven, eight, twelve of the brightest minds that I think could solve this thing, and then I'd put a ridiculous timeline on it and say, right,

you got two weeks to solve world hunger whatever, and they really, you know, we're about technology and so and she says, it's amazing you take the distractions away, you put a really thoughtful team together and then create really clear boundaries and bumpers and constraints. And it's amazing what people can create. And so I learned that from from darker like the importance of constraints. I love that. And what is what is your thought? What are your thoughts

in the role of the unconscious in competition and creativity? Okay, so can we talk about non conscious before we talk about unconscious? Can we do that? Yeah, so let me be mechanical for a moment before we enter the spiritual world of this spiritual slash psychological Okay, so mechanically if

the non conscious, well, let's go upstream. If the brain has two main functions, it's a survival dictum, and part one is working in space in the environment for survival, so manipulating moving, you know, working with your environment for survival.

And then the second is like a meaning making inference designing machine, right to make sense that what we understand or what I understand about the non conscious is more aligned to habits, and so we go from something that takes a lot of resources into something that we can do with some automaticity. And then when we can do it that way, it gets driven down into something that is more of a neurological patterning, you know. And so

the non conscious. The mechanical way of thinking about the non conscious is that because we do things repeatedly, they become automatic, and that is a resource saving machine. It's expensive, you know, from a brain perspective, from a psychological safety mechanism, it's expensive to try to focus on things that could be automatic. And so the non conscious for me is a part of it is a bunch of patterns and

being able. And this is where I think heuristics make sense, is that heuristics are that snapshot ability to have a quote unquote shortcut to what this moment means and what I need to do in this moment to optimize it. And if we're not careful, just survive. But you know,

you and I like to think about optimization. So nonconscious is really about these the patterns that sit underneath the surface that we don't need to think about from a mechanical standpoint, and that is very important for the optimized experience as a human and it's also a trap, so it's got both of those. Yeah, told double edged sword. Well, this idea of optimization very interesting. I'm hoping we could unpack it a little bit intill Actually, I would love to do that with you, but I want to hear

your take. I want I just said because our friendship. What I love about our friendship is yeah, because we go like, we go back and forth. You know about things and iron sharpens iron. So I respect your acumen and your intelligence and your curiosity. So I'd love for you to push back or or not your head to

how you see that unconscious? Thank you, Michael. My style is when I'm doing the interviews is instead of just turning the spotlight back of me, I ask quarifying questions and then that I'll stimulate in me some it helped. It's like a covert way of me being able to

comprehend areas of agreement and disagreement. So I was hoping if you could unpack a little more with this idea is of getting better, and then I'll respond to that once you can do that, sure, But what I what I want to understand is you know, you talk about optimization, but in a lot of ways your book is about getting better. And what I what I want to understand is your conception of like what is the assm tope there?

Like what what is the endgame? What is it? What do you what's your north star goal of to mean? What does it mean to get better? And once I understand that better, then I'll definitely and beautiful. Well, let's go north star first and then I'll work backwards. So the north star is being being here wow, not doing no, being present, being authentic, being grounded, you know, having your mind and your body in the same place, doing the

same thing. And so that's the essence of it, and the axiom that sits underneath that is you have everything you need already inside you and to do the being. And so let's start with the north star. That's the north star. And then when we think about what happens for most people is being is easy. Let's say over a cup of tea with friends or glass of wine at dinner, Like being is easy when the environment is easy, Okay,

when it's conducive, when it's favorable. And as we go up the ladder or tight trate up, stress or pressure or not consequent environments, can you still be you? And so what does that mean to be you? It means your mind and your body in the same place, doing the same thing, and doing it authentically to your principles and your value structures, like your virtues and I don't really love the word virtues, but doing it into your

character style. And so that's what it means. Now, what I have come to find is that we need mental skills to be able to do that in the most consequential environments because we start to make different sense of what happens. If maybe I can't be myself because I need to play it safe and small, or I tighten up whatever. And it's really hard to be free when you have the perception of a moment having consequence. And so that's where mental skills come in. That's where they're

getting better at. The mental game is about and so it's the mental game really is twofold. When I think of psychology, if I could oversimplify the beautiful science that we have fallen in love with, is that there's a discovery piece to it and then there's a skill building piece. And so I just want to oversimplify that we need both need to understand deeply and who we are, what we're about, how we make sense of the world around us.

And then the other part is like, what are the skills that are going to help What are the psychological skills they are going to help me be about it on a more consistent basis? And when that happens, I got it, and I don't. I don't know anyone that has it. You know, maybe dollylid In Jesus and Scott Bury Kaufman. But like, no, no, no, no, no, I love what you're saying, and I just still did in my in my notes as you were talking to know thyself and then be better than yourself. Let's think about

that from it, think about it, think about it. Know thyself. Yes, because because you know, Carl Rogers talked a lot about I know you like Car Rodgers too. We both nerd out of a Car Roger. He says. The curious paradox is that once I accept myself, then I can change. And you know this discovery part. You may discover things you don't like about yourself, but you still accept them, but you still want to change them ultimately, So Yeah, there you go. Yeah, that's what I meant, That's what's up.

And so I think that's that's important Nuanced to bring about is that there is there when you use your imagination or you're around people that are going to use their imagination for you. That one of the things that we can do is we can imagine what it's like when we are truly authentically ourselves in all of its essence, and we're our highest form, right, the most joyous whatever that means to you, the most joyous, the most intense, the most present, whatever that means to your unique way

of engaging in the world. That that is that aspirationally is the idea. And so when you use your imagination, and sometimes that means you tackle back to times in your in your past where you have been absolutely brilliant present, and you wonder, like, can I do that more often? You know, what would it be like if I was

that version of myself more often? That's what I'm talking about, like creating this idea, this vision about what it means when you are fully syncopated and integrated into an environment and that environment potentially has what once brought you stress. You can mitigate that or even dissolve that pressure by being fully skilled and having a deep commitment, a fundamental commitment to be yourself in every set environment. And so I'll just add one little nuance to the end of

this and I'll step talking. Is that I mentioned somebody else using their imagination that in some respects is the highest one of the highest forms of love is that you're so present with another person that you get glimpses of what it would be like for them to be what you've seen and smelt and heard and felt for

them to be about it on a regular basis. And then you're so present with them that you see it, you feel it, and then you have that vulnerable meats courageous meets bold relationship to say to that person, Hey, you know what, can I share something with you? They say, yeah, what's up? So when I think about like what I've seen from you and what is amazing about you? This

is what I see? What do you think? And then there's this calibration of like a better version of you, and that, in many respects is one of the beautiful gifts of love. See, this is why this dialectical is beautiful, because I'm just modifated, modified on the spot in my two maxioms. So it sounds like know thyself and then

become a better version of yourself. Yeah. And then what that gets tricky is that when you really know yourself, are we talking about embracing all of the character flaws and all of the assets, right, like all of that, Yes we are, yeah, And then we're saying if you were able to, like you think about this expanded version of you and visions. There's a complication with that language, right because it sounds like it's a thin slice, like a version, or it's a manifestation of something that is

less than now. But if you were to embrace what it would be like if you were more consistently loving, more consistently authentic, more consistently caring or compassionate or whatever, that's what we're talking about, Like, if you're working on I don't know strength, what would that look like and feel like? And then that's the north star being that more often And then we back into a strategy and

a plan to help make that happen. I guess the way I was thinking about it is that when you focus on things like mindfulness and attention, you use those as skills to be as present as you can to the best that's within you, so that you don't get constantly distracted by and into other people's dramas and other people's selves. I guess that's what I was thinking about.

You know, why your skill building is so important is because that skill set gives you the attentional abilities to not be so driven by everyone else's desire to suck you into their life story. You know. So that's the way I was thinking about it. That's it. That's exactly how I think about it as well, is that you know, it's through the relationship with ourselves that we become with others as well in other nature, but that relationship is

born through deep focus and attention. And when we're in mechanisms or i'm sorry, environments of perceived or real pressure or consequence, then our attention goes to something that is more immediately required, which is survival. And so you nailed it. And you know, when you learn how to be aware of what's true and what's present and what is unfolding and how you're responding to the unfolding environment, you end up learning that not all your choices are the ones

that are beautiful. Sometimes they're scratchy and irritated and frust full of frustration, you know, and if you if that's okay for you, then that's okay. But also it's important to embrace that when we are frustrated with others, that there is some of scar tissue that happens in the relationships. And you know, so that's okay. We just need to, you know, spend more time I think, becoming aware. And when we when people do embrace that deep commitment to awareness,

which is what mindfulness really is about. You know that we're a significant part of mindfulness. We end up recognizing that we're all just trying to figure it out. Like we're just trying to do our very best based on our genetic gifts and liabilities, based on what we've been taught, what we've been unto taught. You know, we're just trying

to figure it out and do our best. Some people have incredible natural skills, but most people that pursue potential have a relentless commitment to organize their inner life and their skills and physical skills and talents their craft to be able to express them across said environments. Yeah, it's a good point, but there's surely there's individual differences in that, as you point out those who are committed to that. But aren't there a lot of people who aren't trying

to do their best? I mean they don't. They don't they're not consciously actively working towards that. You know, it's an interesting philosophical dilemma about humanity. Most people that I know, well, let's talk about the people I work with. They're the half percenters, you know, the absolute freaks in the way that they've organized their life to express their talents. Most of them would say oh, yeah, yeah, and they'd still

say that, but there's more to go. Now. Then when we double click to you know, the ninety nine percent the rest of us, I think I'd love to hear what you think. I think most people think that they are doing pretty well. They're trying to be their best, but they also know that there's more to go. So I don't see a big difference other than the fundamental

orientation of how you design your life. And I say that because so often, as you recognize, people are looking for shortcuts and hacks and tricks and tips and seven steps or whatever, and that's all bullshit. There's none it. We make a mistake. Oh you just like tell you a lot of people saying claus don't exist. Oh, I know. So we make a mistake when we see the people

on the podium and we say, oh, it's amazing. Look at the hardware, look at the imagine their life now, look at what sits before it, which is the fundamental organization of how they manage and struck sure their life, their day to day life. It's a fundamental commitment towards

that aim. So I think most people know that they think that they're doing pretty damn good and know that there's more to go, even if you're on the continuum of mental illness, on the on the continuum of the human experience for mental illness, suffering all the way up to some sort of optimization. I think everybody has pretty much the same approach, which is I'm doing pretty good,

I'm doing my best, and there's more to go. Take people who score high in like the dark triad of personality, which is something I've studied in a narcissism, psychopathy, and macavalism. So their primary motivation is I'm not convinced. Their primary motivation is growth and trying to be there a best self. Their primary motivation is how can I exploit others? How can I manipulate others from my gain? How can I

have control over others? Do you? Would you still say even in those cases, those individuals are trying to Uh, they're just they're just doing their best. Like would you say that about Dark Triad individuals? Okay, So let me pull this apart in two directions. One, their north star is different than the north star you and I are talking about, so exactly, I think the framework is still

the same that they are working. The Dark Triad folks are I don't know if I can use this word, but they're skilled, you know, like they're really committed to let's call power. They're really committed to something that you and I are not committed to, and they are organizing their life toward that aim. So they their commitment is important and so they're flat out committed just like the

rest of us. It's just a different north star. Well that's what I was thinking is that, you know, people definitely definitely have different north stars, But you think that within them is still this potentiality that wants to be a better person. No, not be a better person, Okay, I think that they want to be better and their north star is just different. That's right. Yeah, this is super complicated, but let's answer. See if we can answer

this question. Was Genghis Khan a good leader? Was Mussolini a good leader? Was Hitler a good leader? Was Bin Laden a good leader? You know, like it's complicated to even bring that question up because of the destruction that they have left in their way. Were they trying to maximize their approach toward their north star? Probably it's not the north star you and I are anyone invested in or even find to be beautiful. But was how did

they organize their life fundamentally toward that north star? And that's what makes it scary to me. Not everybody's nice, kind, oh loving, beautiful. There's evil, dangerous people in the world. So this is really helpful to help me qualify your worldview and what you and pru in the book, because you're you're ensconsious in this world of sports where for a lot of people, I mean, doing is what matters.

You don't just you don't have people. You don't have the quarterback, you know, taking the ball and start meditating in the middle of the field and he's like, you know, like he's like, nah, I'm good. I'm good. I'm just gonna be be doing this game. So how do you how do you help the players balance the two or not? Maybe balance isn't even the right word. Integrate the two where they're they're being on the field, but they're still like they want to win the game, right, Like, let's

be honest. Yeah, oh yeah, good question, and thanks. I like keep it a real mic. You like that, Yeah, for sure. It's a big word to me, yeah, or big phrase. So well, so let's think about like how this works, because I really appreciate that you pull back

the word balance. Integration is a better word. And then so the preparation it requires, whether you're a zen Buddhist, whether you are quarterback, whether you're an entrepreneur or a parent, it requires some sort of development inner development of your inner skills as well as external skills to be able

to integrate those two or merge them in a moving environment. Right, And so the moving environment is like this moment to the next moment, to the next moment, and then based on your perception, you compress the intensity of that moment and your perception is like this is this a big moment, which you, and I will humbly, I think chuckle that there's no such thing as a big moment, that there's just there's again this moment. Don Drake have a song arguing there is such a thing as a big moment.

I mean, you know, like I feel you. I think that it's when you listen to ESPN and Fox and whatever, like the defining game, the biggest moment of their life. You know, like like it's a common narrative, but when you down it really is this moment is all we get. So how do we do this? There's a training in preparation and that's a big part of integrating the being and the doing, but it is really about doing so and then when you're out in the field doing your thing,

it really is about doing in that moment. So how do they relate is that instead of putting doing first. So I'm a human doer. You know that that old kind of narrative is a little bit trite. But the idea to reorganize and decouple the idea that I am what I do, decouple the idea that I only matter based on what I do and what we're seeing is the best in the world are doing this very aggressive move that they're saying, no, no, I'll hold on. I

need to be first. I need to make the commitment to be in the present moment because that's the key hole for high performance. It's also the key hole for wisdom and love and beauty and true and good. So I need to be committed to the being first and then let the doing flow from there. So what does that mean? Be present, be grounded, be authentic, be creative, be skilled, be first, and then let the loving be loving, and then let the doing flow from there. And so

that that's a that's a revolution. That is not Yeah, that's that's a revolution. It's a revolution of organization, organizing thought to be able to flourish in any environment that you want to be in. This is why I consider you Sinequon Non in your lane like there's no one like Michael Gervais. And I'm gonna explain why. And I

really do mean this. You've have been a meditator for twenty years, right, You've really practiced the art of being personally and you're simultaneously very much in the high performance space. You tend to see, you know, people who are expert metric that they stay on the Mountain in a lot of ways, and no disrespect to expert meditator listening to this podcast that just because you're not playing for the super Bowl, I don't think any less of you or

you know on the Super Bowl field coaching. But this is not a matter of comparison comparing it others. I'm just saying why your approach is so unique because you're combining this being aspect in a really high doing environment. I wonder on a personal level, Mike, does it ever give you? Do you ever face attention? Do you ever feel like there's that the being and the doing part are kind of it's hard for you to to integrate the two among the players that you that you coach.

Oh yeah, it's hard for me sometimes too. And I've spent my life trying to sort out this relationship between the two being in doing. And I'll tell you why. Is because, okay, let's be materialistic in a moment for a moment, is that if the doing doesn't go well, and in high performing environments, the runway is short, and the most consequential environments, if you make a mistake and you or to perish or love one where to die

like the runway is incredibly short with the mistake. Okay, but then when you think about rugged environments, like the NFL is a rugged environment and the performance standards are really high. So it's like, I think it's the first four games of the season is somewhere in there. Four to six games of the season is where coaches are

getting fired based on what on the doing. So here's the challenge just on the on the most basic level is that and and I want to talk about the dilemma in a moment, but the challenge is if the doing isn't good enough, people are are going home, you know, and so what does that mean? There's a there's an existential threat potentially to safety and security and all those things that are so important you know, to your work

with Maslow, and so that that's that's a struggle. And then the other part is like it's also like you want to see people do their very best, but how how do people do their very best? It is by committing to being And so you actually can't just hear me say that and say, yeah, that sounds intellectually smart. You have to really understand and embrace what it means to be fully present, whether they're rubber bullets or live bullets.

What it means to be in a moment that is consequential and drop your hips and have that thing behind your eyes that is a force to be reckoned with, whether it is a spiritual leader or somebody fighting for their family or somebody that is competing with teammates, you know, skill against skill and dropping your weight, you know, your hips and having that thing behind your eyes. You recognize it when you're in it, And there's something incredibly expansive

when you are able to harness it. And I imagine that's what doctor King felt when he was on stage, you know, with his beautiful speeches. And I imagine that what Mandela was feeling when he was writing his pros. And I imagine that's what Buddha felt when he was underneath the tree, you know. Like I imagine that's what Scott Barry Kauffman is like when you know he puts together the final touches of like the commitment of his book.

Like I imagine that that's that's what it's about. Like you're really able to be present and have some conviction about yourself at the same time be fluid and open and adapt to the unfolding, unpredictable, unknown, which is man that is such an electric way of going through life, for sure. Yeah, I often sometimes I'll go days, I'll forget to eat, I'll forget I forget call my mom back, and that's bad, that's really bad. I ever forget to call your mom back. Moms come back with a vengeance.

How often do you and your mom speak what we try to every day? We try to every day. You know, it's the same with my dad, who's my you know, my best friend really But anyway, I don't want to take a detour, but yeah, I love I love a

lot of what you're saying. It's it's really great to kind of hear about someone who's all about being someone who's on the front lines in a way, and I imagine the same principles, right if I could be applied to the Army, could be applied to you know, if I was talking to someone in the Navy seals, they would probably tell me something very similar, which is, you know, we're we have the goal right like do this, and and they're pretty lofty goals, but they're probably not thinking

about the broader goal in the moment. They're thinking about probably micro goals of pure absorption in trying to survive and deal with certain situations, Is that right? Yeah, and then after the age of like three, we detrain ourselves away from the ability to be fully present, you know, because we've got all these perceptions that we're working with and heuristics, and you know, we've got we've got noise.

And so this really is the practice, the psychological practice of discovery and mental skills is really about being more proficient with the signal to noise ratio. So what's the signal.

It's the present moment being where your body and your mind are doing the same thing, and the noise are all the things, whether they're internal distractions or external distractions, are all it's all the noise that are pulling you from either having an unskilled mind or having a let's call it a lazy approach, an undisciplined approach, you know, to being present. Yeah, so it's the signal to noise ratio. It's an engineering term, but I think it's a psychological

term maybe even more importantly. So absolutely it has a lot of applicability for a lot of even down to like the dopamine level people viewsed that you know, in terms of like schizophrenics who have too much dopamine, they have too much of noise and not so much of the signal of reality. So that that metaphor has been used in so many ways to understand human psyche. So you've introduced a concept in your book that you say is one of the great constrictors of human potential, and

you call it faupo. I love it, Mike, I love it. Can tell us a little what faupo is fear of people's opinion and so good. Yeah, I think you coin that. Yeah, yeah, like it was an accident, you know how things happen, And I think it's one of the great constrictors for modern time. So remember, our brain is trying to sort out survival and this is not there's no stretches I'm going to make here. But not long ago, the great dangers of our our world were, you know, lines in

the bush and warning tribes and whatever. So we had to be really attuned to our environment for survival. And we don't have lines in the brush anymore. You know, that's not kind of what's happening. But our brain, our ancient brain, is still attuned to the environment, and so what are the great threats right now. If it's not a lion, well, it's what people think of us, and it's heightened by our social media platforms that are sharing, Oh what is wonderful, it's the highlight reel of others,

and so it's creeped up on it. I think in a pretty dramatic way, is that one of the great constrictors. Fear is a constrictor literally from a neurochemical, neuroelectrical, ner muscular approach creates an environment of constriction that we end up playing it safe when we feel that there's a threat. And so the threat is being kicked out of the tribe, not being good enough, and so I think it's in bottom times that's the one we're wrestling with. Otherwise, why

would why would people struggle so much to be on stage? Really, what's at risk? It's one thing. It's what other people think of us. That's it. That's the only thing at stake. And because the people don't, I'm afraid my pants are just gonna fall down or something spontaneously. That's my fear. Oh my god, has that ever happened? Never? But I did. I think my fly was down once and that was horrible. Too, same thing I was. I was mortified. It was a halfway through the break and so it was like a

three hour thing. It was about halfway through the break someone comes up to me and goes, hey, I just got to let you know. I was like, you got to be kidding me, and they're like, yeah, I've had it too. But you know, I mean we've all been there. Yeah. But here's the thing. Once you've done it and you make it through something, this is this is the point we can build up to anything in the life. I feel like it really gives me confidence that I can

I'm not so careful fearful s careful. I almost made up a word, I'm not so fearful again, you know, of being in that situation because my worst case scenario kind of happened. Matt Abraham Aso talked a lot about this in terms of death. He said, if everyone could just die and then come back be resurrected, our second

life would be amazing. I'm right there with you, and I think sometimes we get a look at that when we break up, or we lose a job, or we get cut or fired, is that we make some commitments to ourselves about how if we get another chance, how

we're going to do it. And it's actually the origin story of how coach Carroll ended up at USC is that he got fired twice from two different NFL jobs, and looking back when if he was in the conversation, he'd say, you know, I just I didn't fully commit when I was there, I was trying to be half me, half what the GM wanted, half what the owner wanted, half what the team wanted, like and I was I just I didn't have a full commitment. So he got fired from a second NFL job, and he said, I

got to figure this out. If I get another shot, you know, at a at a potentially successful program, I got to know who I am. I got to know what is it that I'm going to stand for. So he wrote, pulled out spiral notebooks and just wrote. And that's the beginnings of having a clear philosophy. And so when he got a chance at USC, he's like, I know exactly how I'm going to do it. And during the interview he's like, this is how I'm going to approach it, and the stat the hiring committee was like,

damn that sounds pret damn good. He says, yeah, but I got I gotta really go for it completely. That's the authentic approach. And so part of what we do, whether it's in our book or our course, is that we walk people through a process to get more clear. Is that a right way to say it? You get greater clarity about your philosophy, and so it's a I think what's powerful about having a philosophy, Scott, is that once you, once you know who you are, nobody can

ever take it away from you. No external experience, no win, no loss, no sneer from others, no eye rolling, no chuckle, nothing that happens outside of you can ever take away your understanding of who you are. And that's a very powerful piece of work. That is profound. Especially I don't know if you have you heard of cancel culture. I have. When you're canceled, you're saying you can still like even

that can't take it away from you. Once you know who you are, nobody can ever take it away from you. So it's a really really profound point. Yeah, it is thinking about that a lot. Actually, we can give it away right if we don't have kind of the internal skills. And that's why knowing how to generate I know, you know the Scott But knowing how to generate calmness is a mental skill. Knowing how to generate confidence is a mental skill, and it is not dependent on past success.

How about that for a thought. It only comes from one place, which is what you say to yourself. But what you say to yourself has to be rooted in credibility. It has to be grounded in something that's authentic and real and hard and difficult, so that you can earn the right to say to yourself, I can do difficult things. You know. That's the essence of confidence, is like I think I can go do that, and that's a trainable skill. Why would we leave that up to chance. I didn't

learn it in third grade, sixth grade, ninth grade. I didn't learn it college. I didn't learn it from sport. As a matter of fact, I got taught something, uh the antithesis in sport, which was be confident? Am I come on, now, just be confident? And I say to myself, as a kid, what the fuck are we talking about? Yeah, what do you mean? Be confident? But just believing yourself? Well, wait a minute, Like I'm terrified that I'm gonna screw this thing up. And everyone. I'm gonna let people down

and Mike, come on, just relax. What are we talking how? I hate all those things you just said. When people say it to me, Oh it's yeah, it's it's unskilled, I'll freak it out. Just relax, Just relax. You're figging me out even more. Yeah, well it's an unskilled coach. It's an unskilled you know, applied psychologist. Hey, Mike, do you mind if I bring in my friend here a second, who's a terrific sports psychologist, christ to Striker. She just wanted to ask you one or two questions. Would you

mind come on the unfolding and the unpredictable unknown? Yeah, let's go awesome? She uh she she wrote the book The twelve Minute, and she has that same app Michael, it's so nice to talk to you. First of all, I'm just going to clarify I'm not a sports psychologist yet, but I'm aspiring and I'm your word just give me so much hope. I'm just listening to that interview and tearing up. I just you. I feel like you make everyone want to be better and it just gives me

so much hope for humanity. So thank you. Oh my goodness. Awesome. Sorry, I'm very emotional right now. Yeah. So you know what we call this, We call it clear in the tube. Yeah yeah, so like before or after moments that are are important that we call it clear in the tube. And if you can clear the tube more often in life we kind of end up holding onto less and it's it's incredible, and so thank you for the kind words.

I appreciate that. So I was wondering you work with, like you said, the top half percent, the most amazing people, elite athletes, you know, top of their game, and all of these people, from what I can tell, seem to love challenges. They seem to love leaning into that hard thing that the rest of us have a really tough time with. I was wondering if you had any thoughts on how the kind of average person the rest of

us could love challenges more. Okay, it's a good question, Like I don't think there's an easy answer to this, but it does come down to something quite simple, which is to make a decision, you know, like make the decision how are you going to engage with difficult challenges? How are you going to do it? And if you make the decision and then like in the decisions quite simple. It's like, I know the challenges are coming, and I want to tell you a couple of stories as I go.

I know challenges are coming, and I'm going to make a decision that when I'm in the inside the challenge or approaching the challenge, that I'm going to fall in love with the exploration the adventure to see if I can be me and I can access my skills. Because that is the fundamental commitment I've made in life. It's that clear of a decision, right. Most people haven't quite made the fundamental decision and they see challenges something that

they're just not skilled up. So we've got to go upstream if you will, or down to the roots if you will, and say making that fundamental commitment. And I want to share a story. And kartch Karai is one of the greats, and he is a volleyball player and a coach. He won gold medals at the Olympics for beach and for indoor. He's won medals as a coach in beach and indoor. I mean it's phenomenal. And he also won in the pro circuit more medals than just

about anybody. And he also won in NCAA double college. This is a is this skilled human with a fundamental commitment towards growth and improvement. And he's got great skill, great talent and skill layered on top of it. His mental game is unprecedented and he loves competition. So I had the chance of working with him in the last Olympics and he says this to me. He goes, Mike, this was like year one of our four years together

because we're going into the twenty sixteen games. So year one of the games he says, and he looks right at me and he says, Mike, nobody ever wins a gold medal without facing down a double barreled shotgun. And I just looked at him, and I'm smiling and like inside and I'm just grinning ear to ear, and he goes, let's prepare our team for the double barreled shotguns every day.

I was like, Yeah, that's a fundamental that only comes from somebody who understands what it means to get after it and embracing like this idea that real challenges are coming. And so that's one story I want to share with you. The second story I want to share with you is that This happens just about every season at the beginning of the season, football season, or any season for people,

is that nobody can do the extraordinary alone. As you would recognize, it's too complicated, it's too big, it's too it's just too big, you know, to do the extraordinary. Yeah, so we need each other. So what happens pre season is that we share this vision, we share this shared mission of you know, what we're going to do together hopefully, and then we lock arms. We say, okay, let's lock our arms here. And when we lock arms, we agree that we're going to do this thing together and have

each other's back. But then at the moment that some real stress happens, some real pressure, some consequences perceived or real happen. You know what people do that are untrained, that unlock their arms and the system phrase, the ecosystem phrase. So those that stay locked in embrace a second fundamental

commitment that we need each other. So if you can embrace this idea that challenges are an opportunity to see and get some feedback about my ability to be me based on my character straints like the tone, the style of me, and my mental skills which allow me to access my craft. If it's just a feedback loop, that's what it is, and you know that you need more

feedback loops. And the second part is that we need to be connected to other people, and so can we access our ability to be ourselves in consequential rugg and environments at the same time be connected to others. So it's just a feedback loop, that's all this is. And then the third piece is know the mental skills that you need help with. Is it relaxing and being more calm? Is it deeper focus? Is it the self chatter? You know, the confidence, inner narrative. And there's only a handful of

mental skills to work on. Optimism control, I'm sorry. Optimism, confidence, being calm, deep focus are kind of the big four for me. And if you struggle on any one of those, you can back into them, and that's kind of how it works for me. Oh, you talk a lot about having your craft that you're working toward. You feel like people need to have a craft to get better. It's a good question. It's a really good question. Is what

is the craft? Well, it's the form of expression, whether that craft is parenting or it is finances as a CFO or its management of people, you know, as a director or leader, or it is a psychologist or an athlete is certainly easy to look at, or an artist. I think that the craft is our mechanism to express. And you say, well, what is Scott barr Kaffman's craft? His is certainly ideas and communicating ideas, both in written

form and verbal form. And I would say the same for me, you know, like, and so what is your craft? How do you articulate your craft through writing? And I mean writing and ideas and through fitness because I love the connection to in the mind and the body. Amazing mm hmm. It's complicated, isn't it. Yeah, sure, it's amazing. Yeah, you get to test out all of these mental skills. That's great. I forgot about my body. I forgot I was supposed to work my body too. It's it is

It is definitely the vehicle, isn't it. It's the It's the it's the carriage. If you will it for sure? Is you? Oh? My pleasure? Yeah, good to meet you. Thank you so much. That was really generous of you to talk to aspiring Michael Gervais. Oh please, yeah, yeah, that was fun. Yeah, she's great and I really recommend her book and app So let me just end with asking you this question. I thought it was a really interesting question you asked in your book, and that's how

do the best let go and trust themselves? It just just ties so much of what we're talking about today and this, you know, what does confidence mean? What how can we just at the end of the day we wanted to trust our being? Well, really, what that's about is figuring out out in the most credible way. And how do you earn credibility is going through hard things, challenges. If you will, is that you have the inner skills to be able to adjust to the unfolding, unpredictable, the unknown.

And so that's how you learn to trust yourself. That you can say things to yourself, like, you know what, I don't want. I don't want suffering. I don't want conditions in my life that will trigger suffering. But I know that I will figure it out right that I know how to be kind to myself, I know how to be strong, I know how to be confident, calm and focus. Those are the kind of substrate if you will.

I have a fundamental belief that from an optimistic framework that the future is going to work out, and that's how we learn to trust ourselves is by going through difficult times. It's how we become forged. It's how steel becomes forged as well. And so this idea that we're going to escape hardship or challenge is a bit naive, and so when we run to it, we get more

skilled at it. And it is one of the things that athletes do well is that they are highly skilled at being engaged in the unfolding, unpredictable environments, the unknown, if you will, because every competition they go into is unknown, and so they're actually quite skilled at knowing how to trust themselves and better skilled maybe at trusting themselves than others. So step one is trust of self. Step two is

trust of others. So beautiful, Michael, thank you so much for coming on the Psychology Podcast to repeat performer on the Psychology Podcast and for offering everyone you're really tremendous wisdom today. Hey Scott, I appreciate your generativity, I appreciate what you stand for. I love your book Plural as well so and I love our friendship. So thank you for sharing me with your community. Thank you. I love our friendship too. Thanks for listening to this episode of

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