Melissa Dahl || A Theory of Awkwardness

really excited to have Melissa Dalla on the podcast. Melissa is a senior editor covering health and psychology for New York's The Cut. In twenty fourteen, she co founded New York's popular social science site Science of Us. Her work has appeared Inherents and Today dot Com. Her new book, Cringeworthy is her first book. Hey, great to chat with you today. Chat with you So awkwardness? Wow? What a topic? Has no one else ever really covered this topic before

in a popular treatment? Well, I know, I had really covered it in the way that was interesting to me. I mean because to me, the way I understood it was was sort of like a feeling, you know, like I think as I was working on this book, people would would hear that I was writing a book about awkwardness, and they would say to me like, oh, you don't strike me as particularly awkward, and you know, I would be like, thank you, will I will take the compliments.

But that's kind of not what I was curious about. I mean, I'm glad I don't come off as awkward, but I feel this way a lot. I feel kind of self conscious, and I feel uncertain about what to say or do next, and I feel just you know, I'm kind of like thinking about like, oh, why did I think that? Why did I do that? That was dumb? So yeah, I couldn't really find much that had it covered it in that way that I was interested in, so I was just like, Okay, I guess I'll do

it myself. Yeah. No, well I'm glad you did. I mean, it was a really hallucinating book, wonder about this thing that you know, humans are funny creatures, you know, like dogs are never awkward, They never feel awkward, and they do the most awkward things, but they just don't care. Yeah. Absolutely, I mean that became an interesting kind of distinction for me.

It's like a difference between you know, someone someone might say or do something that makes everybody else in the room feel awkward, but they didn't notice it, they didn't feel that way. They don't see it the way somebody else sees it. And that made me think about it. Maybe it is kind of an emotion in the way it kind of spreads like that. So, yeah, that distinction was really interesting to me to think about. Yeah, and you went through this big journey where you're now like

awkward proof or whatever. You know, like it seems like or you know, you've really just really kind of overcame it in a sense that like a lot of things that used to really bother you or get to you, you just kind of they kind of roll for your back and you've become more of an explorer of people.

Is that right? Oh, that's completely true. Yeah. I mean honestly, when I set out to write this book, I was just looking at my contract the other day and it says that I was going to write a book about like overcoming awkwardness, and I guess it sort of was that in a way, But my initial idea was to have it be more something like, you know, how to finish this feeling from your life forever? You know, I never want to feel this way again, and I feel

it to a lesser degree. Now I don't feel it, and I'm glad I do, but I'm like that as afraid of it anymore. You know, I'm kind of like more comfortable just sitting with the awkwardness and kind of thinking about it in different ways, like maybe it's a signal of something that it could be signals something I might want to change about myself, Like maybe that's where this comfort is coming from. It could be just discomfort

coming from uncertainty or that kind of thing. But yeah, I found that I'm kind of able to be a little more straightforward in situations that would have scared me to be straightforward in. Now. Yeah, it's been an interesting awkward journey. Well does overcoming awkwardness? Does it go hand in hand with overcoming social anxiety, overcoming fear of rejection? Like is there a whole system of psychopathologies that are addressed if you like tackle the fear of awkwardness? Do

you know what I mean? Yeah, So I started to think about awkwardness is sort of like, you know, like a lesser like feeling awkwardness is sort of a lesser version of social anxiety, Like people who have social anxiety feel this to the point where you know, it holds them back from doing things they really want to do, maybe even you know, things like going to a party or just ordering food on the phone, although I guess

none of us have to do that anymore. But yeah, I think there was a lot of interesting things to be learned from some of the folks who study social anxiety. One of the really things I really loved was there's this guy, Stefan Hoffman at Boston University at this anxiety center over there, who works with social anxiety patients and

does this kind of like exposure therapy with them. He calls it as social mishap exposures, and he basically asked them to come up with, you know what's like the most embarrassing thing can think about, you can think of doing. He's like, Okay, now go do it. And so he'll make people go do things, like you know, he's had people go do things like go to a bookstore and say,

excuse me, do you have any books about farting? Or or like go to a drug store and you know, go to pick up a pack contents and say, excuse me, do do these come in any smaller sizes, and the point is like not to not to humiliate these people and not to scare them. The point is kind of to make them face these social fears and come out the other side and realize like, oh, you know, I lived. I survived, and that was uncomfortable, but it didn't kill

me and and it wasn't actually that bad. So the point he kind of tries to stress is to lighten up and to take yourself a little less seriously, which is I think anyone who feels awkward often was a good lessons to learn. That's a lesson I am always learning. I love that. I love that. Don't take yourself so seriously. You know that that reminds me of what kind of skills you earn an improv. And I know that you did. It took you took like a four week improv course,

isn't that right? I did? I did. It's so funny. I actually, I mean I say this in the book. I actually took it just almost as like a stunt. You know, I was just going to write about it and then make fun of it and then like go back to my life and then like I actually really really loved it. It kind of for me, I think worked as like an awkwardness exposure therapy, because I think a lot of awkwardness comes from uncertainty. You know, I don't know what to say next, I don't know what

to do next. And that's what improv is all about. There is no script. You just kind of are thrown in and all right, figure it out. And I don't like situations where I don't have rules. I don't like situations where I don't feel in control. And it kind of made me confront that feeling and get over it and make mistakes and look stupid in front of a classroom of people. And it was fine, and it was actually really really really fun. I was so surprised to

how fun it was. Wow, that's so interesting. I can't stand situations where there are rules, like yeah, I hate oh yeah, I have social ins. I like to feel free with people. That's why I have this like independent podcast that like you know that I am not beholden to anyone. I think that's a really cool way to be because I mean, okay, actually, this is kind of

I think this is kind of a funny story. But for Science of Us years ago, I wanted to do a post about I guess I've been obsessed with awkwardness for years because I wanted to do a post about that thing, you know, where someone is walking towards you and you're walking towards them and you step to one side, but they stepped to that side too, And then you step the other side, but they stepped to that side too,

and you give the dance. Yeah. So I emailed this guy who studies like sidewalk dynamics, and I kind of I wanted to find from him a rule, you know, what is the rule, like which way do most people go? Which which way should most people pass? And you know, he wrote back and he was like, well, okay, it's true that, like, you know, I've studied this and most people do pass on the right and that's fine. But he also said to me, but you know, you can't you can't go out in the world and expect everyone

to follow the same rules. You can't expect life to play by rules at all. You know, you have to kind of be uncomfortable with situations where there are no rules, where people break the rules, where there's unpredictability, and you have to be comfortable with that. And he he studies this thing he calls sidewalk rage when people just get really really angry at kind of like kind of like road rage, and he said, end that email back to me.

He is, like, I hope it's okay. I hope you won't be insulted by this, but I think you might have at least a mild version of sidewalk rage. Oh, sidewalk rage. Hilarious. Yea. Anyway, So I think that your approach to the world is really is a really nice way to be because there are rules that govern social situations, but they go off the rails a lot. So I think it's better to be comfortable with the times when they go off the rails totally and by rules, you know.

I think that I really value in social situations there being like a common respect. I mean when I say no rules, I don't mean like, you know, yeah, I just love it when I get to call people bad names, you know, like you know that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying, you know, Like I like there's kind of like a mutual just kind of like safe area too that we know that we can speak our mind. I like that. Okay, So that's really cool that you really confronted this head on. I mean, that's that's brave in

a lot of ways. Also, you know, I think a lot of people, a lot of journalists just love writing books that are like self transformation or self discoveries, because it kind of like writing the book is an excuse to be brave, you know what I mean, They're like you have in your head, well I got to do it, you know, like you know, I got to do it. It's going to make a good story. You know, like maybe if you didn't have this, would you have taken as many risks if you didn't have the book contract?

No way. I Mean one thing I certainly would not have done is I participated in this show called Mortified, where people get up on stage and read from their teenage journals. And I kind of was familiar with the show. I'd heard of it, but it just horrified me just that the whole prospect of it. I certainly I would not even have attended the show and let alone have been in it. And and I'm so glad that I did. I just have such warm feelings towards towards that show

now and my participation in it. It's actually really cool. That is really awesome, cute congratulations, you read your middle school journals? Is that right? Yes, it did my seventh grade diary in front of a crowd of strangers. Do you have any entries you can read right now for our audience? Do you? I have a lot of it memorized. I mean there's one. The book opens with a line that I wrote in nineteen ninety eight in my journal,

which is, how come no one here likes Hanson? And I think the rest of it goes It's still true. It's still true. I know, I know, I think the rest of it goes, no offense, no offense. I might have hands in on my podcast. I should say that, Oh my god, let me know when you do, I'll be back. But yeah, I mean, I guess I could read from it my books across the room, but or I could just tell you about it either way. But

I feel like that was okay. All the awkwardness that we, you know, can that we need to pretty good instant awkwardness. I mean, like I was like into the Backsheep boy is is that weird? Like I wanted to be in a boy band. But they were cool. They were cool, like cool for like a couple of months, and then they weren't, and I held on to them. But yeah, so you say, awkwardness is self consciousness tinged with uncertainty

in moments both trivial and serious. You know, I just wonder how much we kind of create drama for ourselves that are unnecessary. Like I look at the way Obama interacts with people. He is so smooth, like I've never seen if anything's awkward, he just doesn't come across that way. Like even if he says something awkward or someone doesn'ting awkward, he has a way of making the situation not at

all appear that way, like it's just everything. So yeah, yeah, well so something that helped me think about this is there's all this research kind of linking self focus and anxiety or like nervousness, you know, and kind of one kind of triggers the other. And then you know, like

when you're nervous, you're more self focused. When you're self focused, you're more nervous, And so a lot of awkward moments can be kind of exacerbated by like you get nervous and then you start thinking about like what do I do with my hands? What do I say? You know, how am I coming across how does my hair look. And that's not helping, you know, that's just getting you

farther and farther in your own head. And so I think somebody who's really smooth like that, like Obama or somebody like that, just is really good at not focusing, not getting in their own heads like that. And I mean, this is what you know, psychologists study this have told me that one way to break out of this is just to focus on anything else, you know, focus on the person in front of you, focus on you know. I wrote about this actually the other day for the Cut.

I really hate doing self promotion. I'm a pretty self conscious person, but I've had to, like, you know, go out and do interviews like this and do some things on camera, and I just hate it. But one way to get over that is to kind of like separate the self, like take the self out of the self promotion, you know, and just think about it as like, don't think about yourself. I'm just trying to think about Okay, this is an interesting message I'm trying to get across.

These are interesting ideas that I think are Some of them are very funny, some of them are very useful. I think they're all very interesting, and I'm just kind of the conduit to get those ideas across. So Yeah, so I think that a lot of awkwardness can be avoided for yourself and for other people if you just don't focus on yourself so much. Yeah. I know, that's great advice for like a lot of things in life. Yeah.

So there was like a very seemingly simple question. Yet it's got to be thinking a lot you run there. That is a scientist who studies mirror, studies self reflections and things said, isn't it strange to think you've never seen your face as in your actual face, un needed by mirrors or pictures or videos? Now? Is there anything we could ever create where I could actually see my face? Is any technologies we can put any As soon as

you introduce technology, you're suddenly removing yourself from the thing. Yeah, it's so weird. I mean, all I can think about it is like if you could somehow like astral projection, don't I don't know, Yeah, astral present projection is probably an avenue worth exploring. Yeah, I mean that's the only because other than that, it's like you're always seeing you know yourself in a mirror or you're seeing yourself, your

reflection or I photograph. I'm just trying to think of all I'm trying to think of all sorts of workarounds to this. Like my mind is just throughout the day just been like people who have really long tongues. I mean you can like touch your yeahs, Like is there can people pop out their eyeballs enough to like look at their face? You know, that's the only way I think you can do it. I got that sentence and I was like, wait, is that true? And I think

that's that's good. That's it's true. Yeah, I mean it's it's it's so weird to think about. Well, it's not okay, look, it's not like like like right now, I'm seriously hung up on this. Okay, look like my like my eyes like wall, it's not true, like like I can see my hands. Yeah, there's aspects of me I can literally see that are outside of myself, right, I just can't and so people, So there's got to be a way to fix it so we can see our face. I'm seriously getting hung up on this. Like if I if

I look down at my nose, I can see my nose. Wait, that's actually so so I am actually literally seeing the real nose, do you know what I mean? Like, there's got to Yeah, I think I'm going to this. No, it's it is really crazy, But to me it became this like almost like a metaphor or an interesting way to think about just the way you're presenting yourself to the world. Like you really you literally can't see all

of yourself. You have to like rely on other people to get an idea of yourself, and so, you know, sometimes I think the moments that make us cringe are sometimes the moments when someone's like seeing us in an unflattering way or seeing us in a way that like, we didn't mean to have ourselves come across this way, but they're they're taking it this way and we didn't

mean it, but that's how they're taking it. And it doesn't always mean we have to pay attention to it, but sometimes it can be valuable to pay attention to tell other people are seeing us because you just can't see all of yourself. And the idea about not being able to see your own face was really interesting to me. Yeah, really interesting. Thanks for getting us back on track. I started to have a panic attack that I can't see my own face, Like, that's really weird. It's really hard.

I'm going to take some deep breaths. So what about the air conciliable gap. I don't know how to say that we're a reconciliable gap that Philip Rushaw talks about. Is that's basically talking about right, Yeah, that became so interesting to me. So this actually I got obsessed with this when I was writing something for Science of Us about this kind of question of why is hearing your

voice on tape make you cringe? You know, that's something that like so many of us say, like, oh, I hate listening to my voice, like record version of my voice, Like I hate the journalists say this a lot. I hate listening to transcriptions of interviews. My voice sounds so stupid. And so, you know, I did a story about that for Science of Us and there's like some interesting like

physiological explanation there. Your voice really does sound different like my voice I'm I'm The way I'm talking now is not the way other people hear me. And I guess it's because I'm hearing my voice through the air and through the bones of my own skull, and bone conduction transmits sound at a lower frequency than just air does. So it's kind of if a lot of people say when they hear a recorded version of their voice, like, oh, it sounds so much higher than I think I sound.

So that kind of helps explain why. But then when I was writing the story about you know, why do we cringe at the sound of our own voice? You know, that kind of physiological explanation that explains why it sounds different,

But why does that difference make us cringe? And so I started to think that maybe the things that make us cringe are so we kind of carry this like image of ourselves in our own head, and we think we're showing ourselves to the world this way, and then sometimes we get this picture of how other people are seeing us, and we see how other people are receiving us, and that this psychologist Felipp ro shot at Emery, he has a name for this. He calls it the irreconcilable gap.

And it's this difference between ourselves concept in the way that others are perceiving us. And it's not that the way others see you is always right. You know, that would be kind of insane to suggest, but I think it's worth not always dismissing it and sometimes taking it in and saying huh, like I didn't know I was coming off that way. Interesting, notedly I really liked a term. And then sometimes Okay, I just want to works think

through my head right now? Is there the difference between the way what you see and the way others see you? Can we coin a term for the gap between the way you used to see yourself and the way you see yourself now that's a different gap. Can we coin what that gap is? Because? Oh, interesting, Like I I was watching some old YouTube videos myself from interviews we're talking about like just two years ago, where I was

like significantly heavier and I had the worst haircut. I think it known to humankind, and I mean as the YouTube commentators made clear, made me aware of it. But at the time I feel like I was looking at the YouTube commentators like haters. But I feel like I watched the video yesterday and I was like, oh, they were totally right, you know, like like that this is a horrible I do not like that person that I'm seeing right now. So I don't know what's that gap.

I don't know what the name for that would be. But you could think of it. I guess as I suppose that could be a version of the eraconcilable gap. I mean, as I was writing this, people were kind of asking me, you know, I'm a writer and I'm friends with a lot of writers, and it's kind of a version of what you were saying. Maybe this happens to you too. But it's really common for me to come across something I wrote like five years ago and just look at it and say, like, oh gosh, like

what that writing makes me cringe? Like that's so embarrassing. I can't believe that's out there. I can't believe. I was proud of it at the time, and some of my friends asked me, you know, like how do I get over that? Like how do I stop cringing at the stuff I used to write? Or or you know, maybe seeing old videos of yourself, how do I stop cringing at that? And I mean, I think maybe it's okay if you cringe at the person you used to be, because it kind of means that you've grown since then.

I mean, maybe it means you've gotten a better haircut since then, or maybe you know, when I look at when I look back at you know, posts I used to. I used to write for four posts a day for Sites of Us, And sometimes I think back on those posts and I'm just like, oh, that like wasn't very good or that wasn't very thoughtful. But I'm sort of glad for that feeling because it means that it means that I've grown in those years. I wouldn't really want

to look back and be like, yeah, seems good. I mean you can kind of like cringe, like with compassion for your past self, just like, oh I see you, Like, I see what you were trying to do. Good job, good job, past me. You know, past Scott. He was trying his best with that haircut, right I No, No, I was not at all trying my best. Oh funny, Oh my god, that's really funny. I just didn't one of those videos for Big Thing too, that was pretty intense. Oh my gosh. Does anyone happy the way they look

in Big Thing videos? Like? No, Like, I love Big Thing. Don't get me wrong. I think they're great company, but like, I don't know what it is. It's just you up there. I mean, it kind of made me think about I love watching that. I've never thought this about. I've never I haven't watched my own videos. They just went up this week. But watching other people they seem great, but I don't think I'll watch mine. Well that's so interesting. Maybe other people watch us and they think we are great.

Well yeah, like maybe maybe it really is, like it's just through our own lens. So yeah, there's a kind of like careful walk there. Like I mean, I write a little bit about the spotlight effect, which is this thing where you know, people aren't judging you as harshly as you think, or they're not noticing your your embarrassing moments as harshly as you think, but like some people still notice, so it's not they know. So yeah it's so right, So right, Okay, so let's talk about the

growing edge. I like that, you know, how could people find their growing edge and challenge themselves to have more

awkward conversations. Yeah, So if if you think about if cringing, if this feeling of awkwardness comes from this gap between who you think you are and who how the world is actually seeing you, then I think sometimes not all the time, but sometimes when you feel this way, it can be a signal or of an opportunity that you can maybe maybe the feeling is a signal that, like, you can grow a little bit, you can become the

person that you wish that you were, you know. I mean sometimes sometimes when we say something and someone takes it the wrong way, you know, we just we just want to dig in and get defensive and say like, well I didn't mean it that way, you know, while you're taking it the wrong way. Well, okay, but they took it that way. And sometimes it's worth taking that

into consideration. You know. It's not like they're always right, but I think sometimes these little moments can become little opportunities to become closer to the person that you wish you were, or the idealized version of yourself you have in your head. I love it. Well, look, I really want to thank you for making the world less awkward and helping people cope with their inevitable awkwardness. We're all, you know, all of us except for Obama. I wonder

if she was ever went through an awkward stage. But anyway, I'd like to end on some of my favor you know, like a favorite quote from my guests or something. So I'm just gonna know this, there will always be awkwardness, and the only way to keep it from isolating us is if we start cringing together. Yeah, so, I thank you for cringing with me throughout this interview. It was a delision. Yeah yeah, it was really nice to talk to you. Gut bye bye. Thanks for listening to the

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