Kati Morton || How to Care for Your Mental Health

Morden is a licensed marriage and family therapist practicing in Santa Monica, California. Morden is an entrepreneur and YouTube creator who has built a global mental health online community and as author of the book Are You Okay? A Guide to Caring for Your Mental Health. Thanks for chalgling with me today, Katie, Yeah, thanks for having me on. Oh yeah, it's my pleasure. I really enjoy your YouTube channel, and I learned a lot the other about DBT dialectical behavioral

therapy from your video about it. Yeah, I've been trying to think about what's the difference between that and like ACT therapy, you know, which they they are so similar in a lot of ways they are. Isn't act created more for anxiety though? If my memory serves yeah yeah, yeah, so like these things like we're created for serving primarily different purposes. But when you look at the details, it's like, wow, everyone's about mindfulness. It's like that's the first step of

everything these days. Well, totally, the more aware we are how we feel, the sooner we can like nip it in the bud, so to speak. Yeah, but you're not going to see like a new form of therapy pop up. It's like our first step is non mindfulness. Like I just feel like it's like unverifiable because no one's going to do the control condition totally. Yea, but everything you feel,

that's how we start. Just go automatic, you know, just don't be mindful of it, you know, just like being like be impulsive, go ahead, go ahead, you know you want to anyway, it would be like the anti therapy. Yeah. And DBT was primarily for borderline disorder, right correct. Yeah, it was created by Marshall innihand she herself has a BPD borderline personality disorder, and DBT is kind of a

build on CBT. If anybody like cognitive behavioral therapy so it's like got the addition of you know, mindfulness and

some emotion regulation stuff like that. Yeah, but then they have you know, what's cropped up recently is mindful CBT as a sub So I'm trying to think what's the difference between that, and it just gets all confusing because like every you get to the point where you start to think, like people just like come up with stuff for their ego, like to create a brand like me and you should we should create like something like we should we want to coin, well, we need the word

mindful in it, and if we want to sell books totally, so like mindful you know, we're going to like make you feel awesome therapy. Yeah, it's mindful compassion based therapy exactly. All the buzzards in there. It's like too many, there's too many types. I think it's really confusing for the end user then, which I don't really like. But I think it's an ego thing personally. Yeah, So okay, well, maybe let's get a little serious then a little more serious but feel free. Let's you know, we want to

be that as serious throughout this whole thing. But what's the difference between mental health and mental illness. Yeah, and I talk about that in the first chapter of my book because I think people I'm glad you read it. I think people confuse the two and use them interchangeably, but they're very different. It'd be akin to having a physical health or a physical illness, like we all have

a mental health that needs to be tended to. Like I'm going to need to take breaks in my day or in my work week so that I can keep doing what I do. I need to check in with myself, be mindful, to use the word everybody loves, and so that's just kind of a basic upkeep, just like I try to eat somewhat healthfully, exercise regularly, and drink a lot of water to take care of my physical health. I think people forget that your mental health needs tending to,

and we all have it. And then mental illness, on the other hand, is when our mental health has derailed and we're not doing well so much so that it impairs our ability to function. Meaning if I have to go to work or school or engage in social activities, those things become extremely difficult, if not impossible, for me because of whatever's going on in my head. I just can't do it. So yeah, so that's in a nutshell

with the differences. So your argument that it's important to distinguish with them, does that really to the one of the main principles of the field of positive psychology, that like, the absence of mental illness is not necessarily the presence of thriving or you know, being above zero mental health. Yeah,

I think it's a little bit of that. And then I also think it's important that we use the right words because I don't want the more we actually talk about things openly and honestly, I feel like the less stigma can exist because I think people use the term mental health because it's thin, can in some ways feel less loaded, like it's not as bad, Like, oh, my cousin just struggles with mental health issues, but really he has schizophrenia and that's a mental illness, you know what

I mean? Like I do, But why should that be any worse? And it's just another term, And I think we should use the proper term and not be afraid to talk about it, not be afraid to Yeah, so that's a big part of your work is reducing the stigma around mental illness. You know, I read in an article a couple of days ago. That has stuck in my mind, showing that mental illness is a deal breaker for greater than fifty percent of people in relationships, you know,

especially like the early stage of dating. You know, if you find out that the person you're dating or has a diagnosable mental illness, that is literally a deal breaker for the relationship. I know, I know. And that whole article was framed around the I'll send it to you after this chat was around this about the stigma and what can we do about that? So you know, the stigma plays out not just in conscious ways, I guess,

is the point I want to raise. But you know, we have lots of subconscious sort of maybe some of like inborn build and biases you know, through evolutionally that caused us to have these reactions. But doesn't mean we as human beings can't transcend those instincts. Yeah. And I think, like a lot of times, going like back to our original thing about mindfulness, I think we had to be mindful of what our stigmas are because we all have them.

We all have our own perceptions and the biases, like you said, and I think that oftentimes we don't pay enough attention and recognize that we have them, and so they go unchecked and then we take them as fact. Like let's say in relationships, I found out the person

I was dating had bipolar disorder. If I understood what that meant, and they were medicated and it was managed and they had like a treatment team, that wouldn't hurt anything, that wouldn't hinder our relationship or the ability for it to thrive. I think it's just people don't understand, and they get scared about what they don't know and then act accordingly, and then then that makes the stigma worse, and then that makes it really hard for people with

mental illness to want to tell people. Like I've had patients who've been in a relationship for like a year, and they're like, so when do I tell them? I'm like, you know, I understand why they were scared to because like the article you read, yeah, yeah, you know, if they really care about somebody and that person cares about them and doesn't know about it, what does that mean? You know? Does that mean? I think that shows us that the stigma exists, and it's not fair, it's not right.

We have to understand what it really means. We have to seek to learn about it. Yeah, I agree. So what are some of the core issues that you discussed. Let's look what your YouTube channel for a second, you know, before we get into your book. What are some of the core issues that you discussed in that channel, Like, were some of your most popular videos? What were they about? What resonates with people? It's funny, it's not at all

what I thought it would be. It's always the way, and anything to do with trauma usually does really well and resonates with people. And it's got me thinking more and more about trauma in the world, like how traumatized we all are, and I think that people just don't know to what word to put to it or if happened when we're younger. As we're older, we look back and we're like, oh, it wasn't that bad, and you know, kind of invalidate our own experience and our own expression

of it. So I think that's why the trauma videos really resonate because a lot of us have had a trauma in our life. What counts is the trauma anything that makes you fear for your life or the life of someone else. Do it. But that sounds like okay, that's I think we'd all agree on that. Yeah, right, I mean if you say it that way, you're like, yeah, But think about as a child, like if a parent yelled at you, like really because they were scared and

they were upset and they were worried. As a child, you could be terrified and think they might kill you or hurt you. And even though maybe our parent was never physically abused and never did anything else, that time, that thing still happened and we were still traumatized. So I always tell people, remember you, like five year old you when that happened, that would be scary. You didn't have the understanding or the wisdom that you do now.

So anyways, in short, trauma videos do really well. Also, anything to do with borderline personality does really well, I think because those people can feel people who struggle with VPD can feel very marginalized and very stigmatized. And because it's one of my specialties, like I can talk about it in a real way and in a more hopefully loving and understanding way. This is one of your specialties dealing with borderline personality disorder. I do DBT. That's why

that's one of the therapies I practiced. So and that's what it's made for. Do you have personal experience with that mental illness? No, I actually don't, but it's because I trained did a lot of my training and the Eating Disorder Treatment Center, and there's a lot of comorbidity or happening at the same time, like VPD with an eating disorder, and so that's kind of where that came out of. And that's when I actually got certified as a dialectical behavior therapist and you know, have kept up

with it ever since. So those do really well. And then the final one or like anything with numbers like people love, like the six signs of depression or the five ways to beat anxiety. That, yeah, those are kind of the top four types that do well. What are the five ways of eating anxiety? Like pulling out my pulling out my notepad? Do you have to watch my video? I know, I know, I know. I like that answer. That's yeah. So what is the difference between a psychologist,

a psychiatrist a therapist? You know, if you google in New York, you know, I like top therapists. You actually don't just get top therapists. You get things ranging from people who got a bachelor's degree in psychology to like those who can call themselves life coaches, and then the psychiatrists. How do you sort all these things out? What's the difference between all these things? It's I mean, overall, when you're looking for someone, you want someone who I would

prefer someone who's licensed because then they're held accountable. So if something does derail and you are harmed by them,

at least you can file a complaint. And they are governed by a board like I. You know, you and I were licensed through our own states and our own whatever our degrees are, right, so I'm an LMFT whatever we practice licensed that way, and so that ensures not only that we have an education, but that we know what we're doing and we've taken you know, our exams and we've passed them, and that kind of gives you, like some security in the treatment because we've done that

much work. And so that is like an LCSW, an LMFT, a psychologist. All of those will offer basic therapy or an LPCC in the state of California that have licensed professional clinical counselors, which is different from someone just calling themselves a counselor a counselor can just have gotten their bachelor's in psychology, which in my opinion, ask someone who has their bachelors in psychology. That doesn't really mean much

and that doesn't really prepare you to offer therapy. And so also I talk about how it's important you can ask, but you can always ask someone what their degree is, like, what they're for their resume, and that's part of what

your ability is. So there's I mean, in the book, I get into a lot more detail about like schooling and clinical hours and training, but that's why I really think at the bare bones, you just want someone who's licensed, because that means that they've gone through graduate school in some form and pass the licensing exam, and then you just want to feel like you like them. That's really all.

If you're finding someone, it doesn't honestly matter if it's a psychologist or a social worker, they can often do very similar things. It really matters more that you feel connected to them, you feel like they're on your team and they're listening to you, because that's what really makes therapy so powerful. So do you have any other sussestions for how to find the right therapist for you? I really like though, just simple like do you like this person?

Where are other criteria you should think about and being thinking whether or not they're a good match for you. Yeah, you can think if you have any certain specificities, like it is trauma, Do I think that that should be the focus of my treatment? I know not everyone's going to have those answers, but just thinking about it, like do I think that's a big issue? Like if I had an eating disorder, seeing an eating disorder specialist would be the best because they're going to understand and so

specialties can be really helpful and important. Also, just how easy is it for you to get to their office? Which I know sounds silly, but I mean you're in New York, it can be a nightmare accessibility from a like a bus stop or a train stop. Like just making sure it's easy for you so that you don't arrive to therapy more stressed out than when you started, Like that's not the goal. And then also cost, like being okay with paying that and knowing it's part of

your budget because that shouldn't be an extra stress. Overall, I feel like therapy shouldn't add more stress to your life. It should start helping you take it away. Yes, therapy is hard work, but just the logistics of it shouldn't be too terrible. So those are some things. Making sure they remember the things you told them. You feel comfortable with them, You like the feeling of their office, even like preference of gender, Like I prefer a female therapist.

Not everybody does. But just consider if you want someone older, younger. In the book I talk about this isn't a place for like being you know, totally pc about things. Just figure out what you want and look for that because we want you to be comfortable. It could be someone with the same religious beliefs as you or similar experience in life. Just making sure that you know whatever you're looking for. Try to find the best fit that way,

if that makes sense. It's a lot, yeah, regardless of fit. Like, what are some signs of just a really terrible therapist? Like in general, oh, if they like read science, you know you talk about themselves because that's not our time, that's your time. What that really is as a therapist, I'm like, Wow, they need to get into therapy themselves, that's what that means. But so you shouldn't talk about yourself you as a therapist. They should remember what you say,

Like they have notes. We take notes, right, I still do pen and paper. I know I'm old school, but if they have a computer, they should be typing in like your spouse or partner's name, or that best friend that you live with, or your mom's name, so that

they can recall that we're not perfect. We will mess up, but like they should be trying to And so if you are always having to repeat, if they call you by the wrong name, any kind of confusion like that, I'm always like once okay, but if it keeps happening, that's just not right. I even had viewers tell me their therapist is falling asleep on them. No, that's bad. What if the person was really boring though fair enough?

Can you imagine what that would make you feel, like a patience, Especially what if you went to therapy because people keep falling asleep on you and you're like, I really need help doc, like everyone keeps like thinking I'm boring, like and then like, before you know, the doctor falls asleep, not reinforced, making it worse exactly. Yeah, okay, so those

are just some of the basics of it. Okay, cool, So if you're a really anxious person, like, don't go as someone who like makes you even more anxious on a regular basis. Yeah, totally. Yeah, Okay, cool. So we've already covered a lot of ground for people who are like, I mean, I feel like everyone should have a therapist. Why not? I think if they could afford it, you know, like, it'd be nice to have free health care for therapy.

Wouldn't that be nice? In America? It would be nice? Well, well, and our system is just so it's just so messed up when it comes to that, like having to make calls. As any clinician knows, when you make calls to get coverage, it can be like the worst thing ever and it's so annoying. But I do have to say that even my viewers who do have free health like mental health coverage, they'll have to wait for like a year and a half. And that's not okay either. So there's got to be

a better way. Yeah, there's got to be. So you focus on marriage and family therapy. So do you see a lot of couples in your work? I actually don't. That's kind of the one of the like misconceptions of an LMFT. It really an LMFT. No, you're fine, it's totally fineotypes of that, And I can see couples. That is part of what I do, but the focus of an LMFT is on relationships. That's why it says marriage and family therapists, So it is correct. But I personally

don't see a lot of couples or families. Mainly it's

just my own preference. In a private practice, Luckily, you kind of get to prefer, you to pick who you want to see to some extent, because couples, I mean I have seen couples every now and again, but I ask them a lot of like really tough questions at the beginning because they usually come in when it's too late, Like they've been struggling for like ten years, haven't had sex in like three years, and they want to come therapy to fix it, and they're so angry, and it's

it's like it's almost too late. Not that it can't get better. I don't want to think that it can always get better, but it just becomes I feel like more almost like a referee in a fight than I do a therapist sometimes, So depending on how the couple is, I'll decide whether or not I will take them honest with a client or not. Okay, So people who have been in a relationship but haven't had sex in three years?

Not people like random dudes come in and be like, I haven't had sex and three years like in Genier. Yeah no, that's totally yeah and help me with that. Okay, good, that's totally fine. Yeah. It's more like with the couples in a relationship, that's a signal to you that there's something amiss in that relationship, Like how important do you see sex as? How important is that in a relation? I guess it differs my it differs from couple to couple.

But I do think that sex is like a barometer for something going on, like especially if you used to have regular sex and then you don't what's happened because it's all based on like I'll take couples back to like when you first were dating, and I know no relationship stays like that, but that's always like an idea of Okay, so if you were super in love and excited and like have all that like butterflies of the person, this would be what you would do. Your sex life

would look like X. Right. But then if we've moved into now not even kissing or touching each other in any kind of loving way, or you know what resentments have built up, and what does that say about other things going on? Because sex itself, like I'm not a sexologist, but sex and relationships if there's a lot of it or not enough of it, or they're thinking about opening it up to other people, having an open relationship, all of that to me are just like signals of something

else going on. It's like little red flags. Really, an interest in polyamory is a red flag if it wasn't part of the relationship before and it's just one member of the partnership. Okay, do you see what I mean? Not mutual exactly, Like about the couple, Yeah, because it's a couple themselves. Is like I'd like to explore our sexuality, like to invite other people into the broment. That sound right then that's totally fine. Yeah, It's just all about

clear communication and agreeance and understanding between the couple. Got because as a therapist, like I'm sure you know this, but like when you take on a couple, of the couple is your patient, so you're looking at them as a that like their relationship is what you're working on and the dynamics between that, so you have to make sure that both partners, both parts of that couple are

on board. Yeah, thanks for that clarification, Thank you. Yeah, that's why I ask all these clarifying questions because I want to make sure we were talking about the right parameters. Yeah, we're on the same page. And I also don't want you to be misrepresented or misquoted, you know, as you're saying, like anyone who's not into uh, yeah, that's a red flag. I don't think you're saying that. No, so I know you're not saying that. So moving on from that topic,

I want to cover lots of swaths of humanity. You know, what is the best way to deal with a toxic co worker? Ooh, and that's always kind of tricky, and the best way we can do it first, like with anything in life, I feel like, is just communication. If it's safe, it's really great to try to communicate with them to figure out like, let's say the toxic co worker is like, you know, fighting with you at every

turn while you work on this project together. But you have to work with them because it's not like you have a choice, right, You've been placed in this group together and you have this presentation. Let's say you have to give. That's really important. Yeah, I think it's really best first to communicate with them and say something the effect of, you know, Scott, it was I'm really trying to work with you, and I just feel that you're not happy with the way things are going, and can

you tell me what's going on? Like is there something that I'm doing? Like first, we have to come at it so we don't make them defensive. We want to open it up and be like, is there something I can do better? Is there something that's happened that's upsetting, Because oftentimes people are like when they're lashing out like that, it's like passive aggressive behavior, and so we need to give them a way to not be passive about it,

to be direct and assertive. And obviously if things perpetuate and they don't get better and they won't communicate with you, and when you try to talk they just scream or you know, stonewall and don't talk to at all, then the next step is to take it to like your boss or HR, because it is a work environment and

you don't have to put up with it. If they're all jerks, change jobs, you should probably start looking for another job, and also talk to HR because like you might like, quitting means that you don't get any funding to find another job. Let's say it's so terrible that

you don't feel safe at your job. You know there are laws to protect you, so that you do have some you know, whether it's part of the unemployment that you get or something like that, they can still allow you to have that stuff because you should feel safe

where you work. Communication, I find solves most problems, and I know in the working environment, it's best for us to at least try that so that we have like record that we tried, Like keep emails you've sent, you know, keep voicemails they've left for you, keep that stuff so that you have that to be like, no, I've really tried, and this is what happened, so that you're kind of protecting your job and at the same time, you know, and then when you reach out to HR, they don't

think that or your boss for instance, they don't think they were there your first stop that you also tried other things first, because most people want you to be an adult and try to work it out on your own.

You know, they're not there to babysit people. And I've heard that from a lot of my viewers that when they went to their boss, they're like, well, if you tried on your own first, would you apply these similar principles to if you are in a toxic relationship with someone you know, like not just a toxic business partner, but you're a relationship and you're like, well, you have the sun realization, well this person is really toxic. How

do you get out of that? It's a little different when it's a not a work relationship, because we can't always get out of our work relationships. Yeah, sure we can look for another job, but that's not always an option for people, and we can feel a little more stuck. And so when it comes to our personal relationships again,

the same does apply. Like the communication, we should always try to talk to them and say like, hey, I've you know, I've been feeling this way, and try to use ie statements, don't blame them and I statements really just means instead of me saying something like you always do this or you are so judgmental, people are going to get defensive if we use those statements, so they

shut down. But if we use statements like you know, I have been feeling really stressed out lately, with the way our relationship is working, and when I'm spoken to and what I assumes an aggressive manner, I find myself shutting down and I want to talk to you about it, And so we're trying to tease. I know, the language seems so like small changes, but it really changes them from being potentially defensive and shutting down or fighting with us too, hopefully being able to lean back, open up

and have a conversation. And so that's always the first step is at least try to talk to them, because if there's anything worth if you can salvage the relationship, we should try. But I understand that's not always safe, nor are we able at that point. I usually tell my clients and my viewers like, give it a break, get some space, because with space can sometimes come a little bit of clarity and you can decide whether you do want to try to work on things or maybe

you should, you know, end the relationship. And again, when we end the relationship, if you can, if it's safe enough, I do still think it's best to call, if not see them in person and talk to them about that. How much do you deal with narcissism in your practice? Right? No, not that much. I've had some in the past, parents of the children I have seen, as well as patients

of mine. It can be really difficult even as a clinician because they can be very manipulative trying to get their way, because if people don't understand what narcissists are, what narcissism means, it's really people who put off this grandiose sense of self. They're all about self preservation and making themselves look the best and putting themselves first. So that's kind of in a nutshell always yes, but it's

really because they feel really frat and not secure. So it's all I call it, like they're puffer chesting, you know, like imagine a rooster like to stressen around fish exactly, Like yes, right now. So they're like boastful and putting out their best, but they really don't feel that great. And so in order to keep people thinking they're the best and doing what they want and getting their needs

met first, they'll manipulate to make that happen. And so it can be tricky in therapy because as soon as a therapist, at least in my experience, as soon as I identify that that's what's going on and try to work with them to better understand they stop coming, And that's not one hundred percent of the time, but it's most of the time. Like I've had the parents pull their children out or they'll stop coming because they try to manipulate to get what they want. And that's not

always you know, it doesn't always work out. But I do believe everybody can get better if they want to. So if they wanted to, they could. I really like that attitude, very hopeful. You know, there's a form of narciss and I've been staying in my research called vulnerable narcisism, which is not the puffing out version, but it's more introverted and more tied to neuroticism as a person, and

vulnerarcisism is more of like tied to borderline. In fact, we found that's what I was thinking because I was like anger in instead of anger out. That's exactly so there's a more extra line is externalizing form of narcissism and internalizing form of narcissism. It's more linked to depression. And but they're resenting everyone in the world, and you know, like they're laying in their bed and they're not leaving

their bed. You know, because they're like, they're like, why won't everyone just like realize how vulnerable I am and how much, you know, my issues and problems are more important than everyone else's issues and problems, and so it is actually very tied, is very weak. We find a point in some research, point nine to five correlation between

vulnerable narcissism and borderline scales. So I could see that, and I have a video about like quiet borderline, which is like, because some borderlines are very because they feel everything really intensely, so they'll lash out at people, but some lash in, so it'll be like intense depressions, suicide attempts lots of self injury because it's almost like instead of anger out, anger in, which is kind of how we describe depression, depression with anger in. Yeah, that's really fascinating.

But while most people with narcissm have depression, most people depression don't have vulnerable narcissisms. I should make it both ways. It's not reverse backwards compatible, but yeah, yeah, so anyway, I think it's an interesting form of narcissism that has more well, we wrote this paper recently arguing that's the one with more mental health implications you know, you're unlikely to see the grandiose narcissists stay long on the therapist couch, but you're very likely to see a lot of more

vulnerable narcissists. Yeah. Yeah, that man to really makes sense because borderline patients love therapy. Yeah, they tend to be in therapy a lot. Yeah. I mean they could be very thoughtful individuals who are very interested in understanding themselves and understanding why are they I mean, they're human too. It's a great Yeah, that's a great trait I think too, Like I think people try to stigmatize certain types of mental illness, but I'm like, hey, if they're willing to

do the work, they can get better. So that's really great. So how do I know if I need help? You know, what are some warning signs and what to look out for. Yeah, I think the first warning sign is usually something to do with like a psychosomatic symptom that tends to be

people notice most. And when I say psychosomatic symptom, I mean like the way our mental health has deteriorated is affecting us physically, so where we kind of feel like we have a cold or the flu, but we go to the doctor and they're like, no, nothing's wrong with you. We have body aches, we feel really tired, it can be really hard to concentrate. So those are some of the symptoms and signs that something bigger is going on.

And that's usually where my patients, like, I'll get a lot of referrals from doctors I work with because they're like, hey, they came in thinking they had the flu, but I think they're struggling with depression or anxiety, you know, yeah, And so I think that those are some of the first symptoms. But I find my patients are more apt to notice because that is like a physical ailment. They're more apt to notice when they can't function in their life.

So aside from just you know, feeling like you might have a cold, it can get to the point where it's like I'm just crying all the time. I'm tearful on my way to work, or I feel panicked all the time, my heart is racing, I can't sleep well. I had to call in sick twice last week and three times this week from work because I just couldn't

get out of bed and I couldn't shower. I think, if there's ever or we can't socialize, Like we find ourselves making plans and having to cancel them because we're like, I just can't do that. If the things that we used to be able to do with ease have become really, really difficult, I think that's as soon as you can notice that in yourself, if it's just one thing you had to cancel or a few things. Hopefully the earlier the better, But that's when you really should consider seeing someone.

Is it okay to have like days like this morning? I felt I ticked all those boxes, like is that okay to have days like that where you like wake up at ben and you're like, you know what, I don't really want to deal with the world today. Days in a row. I mean, I give my patients like a week to maybe almost two weeks before I'm like, that's a problem. I feel like most people have bad days or a few bad days, or we'll have like

a stressful week or two. But if it gets passed in my mind, if it gets pasted like twelve thirteen days, then I'm going to start to worry because I feel like all of us can have like a three or four days. Okay, you can feel bad, and that's just kind of part of the EBB and flow of being a human and having life stressors and yeah, you're good, don't worry, You're totally good. It's not time to callcaated Morgan.

I want to circle back to something we started talking about in the very beginning of this podcast, but we didn't close the thread, And that's what are the main types of therapy that exists right now that you think are have the most scientific support for them, and have you think are really valid? I mean CBT, Cognitive behavioral therapy is the one that's easiest for researchers to track.

It can be very easy to track symptoms that way, you know, because that's kind of what they do, is like behavioral techniques, and then how many of these behaviors are you still doing that are harmful versus helpful? CT is probably the most research supported type of therapy. And then DBT. Obviously I'm a huge believer in DBT dialectical behavior therapy. I also believe in a lot of the trauma work. Like I have a friend of mine who does EMDR, which is I movement? What is it? Why

do I always forget what that's called? But I actually have to reference my own book for this because I forget all the ones that I included because there are quite a few therapies. And I also tell my viewers, I like, don't think that just because you haven't heard of a type of therapy, that doesn't mean it's not going to help you. And just because a therapist tells you that this type of therapy is great doesn't mean that it's going to work. Like everybody's going to be different,

and most therapists pick and choose from different types. Like I do a lot of CBT, I do a lot of DBT, but I also have pulled in things I've learned over the years, Like I do a lot of narrative therapy, where I have my patients tell me the stories of times because the more I learn about trauma, the more I realize that our brain likes to store stories, and so if you have them into a narrative, it

can be easier for them to process. There's exposure therapy if you struggle with any kind of fear of phobia. I think that's a great tool. Those are just off the top of my head, the ones that I utilize the most, but aren't there. I mean, what you're saying sounds good, But aren't there really just BS therapies out there that just like, you know, like if I go like and so I was like, okay, I'm going to like align your fifty seven chakra like the you know,

I call this the crystal vibrational frequency therapy of your soul. Like, aren't I allowed to call BS on that? Like even if I feel like it's working, like some things are actually BS even like we can like they're placebos, right, That's why we have science. Yeah, yeah, But I think the reason that people struggle to rule out things completely is because psychology is like a social science. It's not always something you can quantitatively. Yeah, you can't like quantitatively

look at it. You can't say, oh, well this helped these people there. You know, beck depression scale went down from six, you know, all the way down to one, so they're doing better. But because that's not always how you can track it, people aren't always like that. Mental health can be different for everybody, and so there are

some tried and true therapies. I feel like there's a therapy for everything, but the most common ones are the ones I mentioned in my book and the ones that I feel like are supported and things that you should try and be open to. But overall, we know that it matters more about the therapist and less about the therapy style. Oh, that's that's very interesting because more about the relationship. That's all comes down to. Then, Like shouldn't

we pick our friends very carefully? Yes? One hundred. Always get rid of toxic friends, Yes, if you can, if they won't change. Yeah, because the relationships with the people we have end up like filling up all of our free time and then changing, making our life better or worse.

You know, I feel like there's an easier mechanism to break up with a relationship partner than a friend, Like I feel like it's like, you know, you say, like there's something in place for that, like, hey, we've been together and I think it's time for us to take a break. But when you do that with the friends people,

it's how like it's worse. You know, it's like, hey, you know, and I just don't be your friend anymore, Like for some reason, someone takes like if someone says I don't want to be your lover anymore, it's almost like it might hurt, But we like understand that that's like a mechanism. Yeah, that's part of what we've had to deal with. If it doesn't work out, we break up. Yeah,

there's nothing like no culturally. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, yeah, for friendship break Yeah, there's no for this is like a seinfold episode, but it is no. But it makes sense though, because I think the problem is I was just talking to one of a colleague and a friend of mine. Her name is Alexa. I've had her in my videos, Alexa and my Alexa Amazon thing just turned on. Oh did it recognizes my voice? Yeah? It does. Do you want to ask alexas anything? Maybe later I have

to think about it. But my friend Alexa, she she and I were talking about how it's for some reason in our culture. Maybe maybe it's just in our culture. I'm not sure, but it's expected that once you have a friend, you have them for life unless something happens, right big thing. She was like, I disagree with that, and I was like me too, because we grow, we change, Yeah, we grow and change, and like it doesn't have to be And I mean I've ended friendships in the past,

let's say like three to five years. I've ended two close friendships, not because I hated them, not because I'm angry, but because we're not compatible anymore. That's it. But the thing is, but people, Yeah, but people will get very defensive over that, like they won't be able to even if you say, like, it's nothing really personal, like I'm not saying you're a horrible human being. It's just like,

you know, we're just different, we're not compatible. If you say we're not compatible, or like if you say that in like a relationship context, like people get it what that means when you say that in the friendship thing that they like will take it so personally. Oh totally,

because I don't know why that is. But one of my friends did that when I was just trying to like consciously uncouple from them, as people say, Yeah, they got really mad and tried to start a fight, and I was like, no, I care for you, I'm not mad at you. I just I don't think we're friends anymore exactly, and I don't. I mean, it didn't end up going that well, but it was as good as

I could get it to go. You know. Yeah, yeah, but you know you're practicing what you preach because you are a big believer that communication is the key to a happy healthy life, and a big part of communication

is healthy assertiveness and healthy assertiveness of your needs. And as you have talked about some of your videos about the difference between aggressive assertiveness a healthy assertiveness passive aggressive assert I find that the worst people who are the worst the past, Like I almost would prefer the angry one if I had to choose between the angry or you know what I mean, other passive guys, because at least I know assive, like vulnerable narcissm is crorely passive aggressive.

You know, it's like they never just actually say what they just resent to resent it secretly, and they do other things to make your life. You're like, yeah, half the time of actually probably like ninety percent of the time, you don't even know you've done anything wrong. You're like, why are they being such a jerk? I know exactly. So that's why communication is so it sounds like you're

practically you're preaching. I mean, if you feel like you're not growing with I mean, isn't it better to break off a friendship that you feel like isn't healthy than staying in it and faking it and neither of you are growing. Yeah, I completely agree. I think it is

healthier to end it. And I think the unfortunate thing is that I've learned by being doing my best to communicate is that people are so used to people not communicating that when you do, it's like, uh, they don't know how to manage like an actual conversation, and that's why people can lash out and everything. But I still believe that the more we all communicate, the better it

will feel. And the sooner we get toxic relationships out of our lives or relationships that are just not benefiting either party, and the freer will feel to be our best self, you know, isn't that the goal to like grow and change and be happier and be the best we can be. I love it, well, yes, yes, I think so. Yeah. For listeners out there, if you are trying to communicate and people aren't used to you communicating, know that it can take them a little time to get used to it as well and to be open

to it. So yeah, tread lightly at first, Yeah, and phrase it in a compassionate way. Don't say like, look I'm over you, like I'm so over this friendship and now of course you're feeling that right Like. I think a lot of people. You know, if we're being honest, you might have friends where you're feeling I'm so like, they keep calling me every weekend, Hey can we hang out? And like, you just all you really want to do

is be like, no, I don't want to hang out. Yeah, But we say how often do we say yes in our lives when we don't really want to? And this is a general principle of life, is that I feel like most of us say yes to things a lot, just out of politeness, not out of authenticity, you know. And I think the more we can live an authentic life,

the better. And sometimes I always something I was reading the other day and I forget who it was was saying it, but anyway, if somebody had put something up on either like Instagram or Facebook, and I was reading the caption and they were like, I've been trying to live in more authentic life, and they said, sometimes I find myself saying yes when I don't mean it. And I found that a very small no can equate to

a very large yes. And that just really resonated with me because I was like, sometimes you say yes even when you don't want to, and if you said no, that opens up that time to do something that makes you feel so much more yourself and so much better. And it could really be healing. It could be that self care that you need, or putting more effort into that relationship you've been wanting to put effort into, you know.

And sometimes that small no that can feel kind of hard at the time, but it's really not that big of a deal. It can open up all this other stuff. And so I keep trying to think of that, like, sometimes a small no equals a big yes. I truly love that. So what are some things people can do? Like how can people get more help when they really do need it? Like can you give some practical advice to people who are listening to this podcast too, may feel like they don't really know where to start their

search for help. Yeah, I think if we're having trouble in life and we're just feeling like we just need a little extra support, going to therapy once a week is kind of where you start, because that's like the lowest level of care. That's what all of us can benefit from, like going every exactly, and it's the easiest to get even though I know it's a total pain sometimes, But like, if you want to use insurance, go through

your insurance, get the list, make some calls. The best way to find a therapist is to get like a referral from a friend, like word of mouth, who's seen someone. Or if you already see a regular doctor, which most of you should get your physicals every year, you can ask them if they work with any therapists or no of any therapists in the area, or you're psychiatrist, like I work with a lot of different people. So those are kind of the ways to get in. And then

you just have to notice how you're feeling. So if going in once a week leaves you still feeling worse and you find your mental health getting worse, Rember, we talked about it turning into mental illness, and I can't function, I can't get to work, I can't engage with my

friends in the way I want. Then ask your therapist to see you twice a week, and then from there, if it's still not getting better, then there are like partial programs where you go in for let's say three half days a week, so you get group therapy, you get extra one on one therapy. You can kind of see, we're just building up the support that you get and then from there there are full programs where you go in for most of the day, like every day, like three to five days a week, all day, and then

they're inpatient. So then those are ones that you live at, and then hospitalizations above that if you have, like it depends on where you live and what's available to you, whether you have the difference between inpatient and hospitalization available. But that's when you just don't feel safe living on your own, like your mental health is deteriorated so much so that your illness is taking over and you just can't. I know, there's no shame in increasing your level of care.

It's better that we do it sooner. So if you feel you're not getting better, ask for that extra session because it can get better and more quickly that way, and not like white knuckle and hold on until you need impatient or a hospitalization. Well, you're doing such a

great service to people, so many people. I know that you get so many people viewing your YouTube videos and assume a lot of people have bought your book, and so I hope this adds to that, you know, this conversation, I hope that people listen to this and realize there is hope that we can change if we want to,

you know, but yeah, Ytna want to. Yeah. I'm going to end this podcast with a quote from you that I like you said, let's work together to shed light on the truth and keep the positive conversation about mental health going. I know I will. Yeah. That's the very end. That's yeah, I know. Thank you. It's also the end of this podcast today. So thank you for having me on this show, or not, not only I mean thanks for being on. Thanks for being I'm gonna try that again.

Thank you so much for being on this show, Kittie. Yeah, thank you for having me. Thank you so much. Thanks for listening to the Psychology Podcast. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you'd like to react in some way to something you heard, I encourage you to join in the discussion at the Psychology podcast dot com. That's the Psychology Podcast dot com. Also please add a reading and

review of the Psychology Podcast on iTunes. Thanks for being such a great supporter of the podcast, and tune in next time for more on the mind, brain, behavior, and creativity.