Joy Lawson Davis and Deb Douglas || Empowering Underrepresented Gifted Students

how to find and nurture gifted potential. We also touch on the topics of equity, test preparation, IQ, special education, and intersectionality. This was a very personal episode for me, as you will see toward the end, I got quite emotional in this episode, both because I think this is an extremely important topic and too many kids are falling through the cracks due to our misunderstanding of human potential, but also because of my own personal experiences growing up

with a learning disability. This was a really meaningful episode for me. So without further Ado and I'll bring you Juli Lawson Davis and Deb Douglas. Julian, Deb, thank you so much for coming to talk to me today on the Psychology Podcast. Thanks for inviting us. Glad to be here with you. So congrats, thank you so much, thank you. Yeah, congrats on this new book. It seems so timely right now, even more timely, especially in the light of the controversy

about New York education cutting. Well, they they are going to have accelerated programs, but they cut their prior kind of pull out programs for for young children, right based on the grounds, Yeah, that it's the inequities and gifted education. So this sets up your book just perfectly, right. You know what, what who are the underrepresented gifted? Who are

what is that population? Right? Right? Well, Dev and I worked very hard to ensure that we spoke to the experts across the country who who told us who these students are? We looked at the data. Of course, we're talking about black students, LATINX students, low income students twice, exceptional lgbt Q populations, the rural students. Uh, even highly gifted students. Uh. We don't speak specifically to them, but

there is conversation there in our book. But yes, there are a number of students, Scott who, despite what's happened across the country, who continue to be underrepresented in gifted programs nationwide. Nationwide, Well, what what falls within the purview of that Who are who are some of the most

underrepresented that we got out there? You know, not think, but we know because of the data that we are referring mostly to black students, UH LATINX students and poor students, students who live in poverty, we continue to not be able to identify them provide appropriate services for these groups of students. They don't have the resources, they don't have the teachers who have the right kind of training to

understand who they are. So those three populations, in particular, our ones that we believe will be supported by this great book, this great project. It's so hard to be specific about the populations too, because gifted education varies so much from district to district, from state to strait across the country. What's defined as gifted education varies greatly, Who is chosen for gifted education programs varies, The identification process

varies so much. So I know, we really try to collect data, and we really try to say these people are underrepresented or these people deserve their needs to be met, But we as a country don't have a good way of analyzing whose needs to be We can look at a large city population like New York and say, well, we know who's missing from this. You've got ex population of black students in your district and you have a

fraction of that percentage in your gifted programs. We can look at that, but it's really a more invasive, pervasive problem across the country, and especially, like Joy was saying, in rural areas and areas of low social economic where there's there are no programs, there is no access, there is nothing for kids to be enrolled in. Yeah. So this I think actually puts you to in a quite unique situation because a lot of people in this debate want to throw out the baby with a bath water.

You know, they will say, well, because African Americans are underrepresented in gift education, we should cut gifted education. But you two are taking a kind of a unique position. Maybe not within the obviously not within the field of gifted education, because obviously within the field of gift education they believe in gifted education, but broadly in society, right, you know, it's kind of hard for your wrap their heads around the fact that we can have equity and

excellence at the same time. You know, and yes, and you two are saying you can absolutely to go to but that's the kind of a unique position. Yeah, yes, we are, we are. We are all about this, you know, we're all about us, Scott trying to demonstrate that we can't have equity and excellence at the same time. We can because there are gifted children in all communities. We and when we, as you say, throw the baby out with the bathwater, what we're doing is restricting these students'

access to just the kinds of programs they need. And it's really unfair. It also suggests, and this is the piece that really cuts at me a lot, it also suggests that when we say we have we can't have gifted programs and have equity, it suggests that those students can't be gifted. But that's not true. We know better, We know so much better by now that we have found these children everywhere they demonstrate how creative, how bright

they are, how scientific they are. They have they've shown it to us everywhere, and so we can't we can't say to anyone that in order for us to achieve equity, we have to we have to cut out these programs. We know it's Scott, you and I and Dad, we all know that those children whose parents have means will always find a way to get resources for their kids. They will always find a way. Those parents who are the strongest advocates, the ones who can go out and

buy whatever they want. But these children don't have those same kinds of means. They need advocates to say, we're gifted too, we're gifted too, and we need to show and demonstrate that. And I think our book, you know, like you say, uh, it puts us, you know, out there to say that this can be, this can work, we can do this, but we're gonna do it in a different way. Deb is a deb is a self advocacy. Genius, Scott, I want to tell you. I want to say this

before she says another word. When I came upon her work a few years ago and I read what she was proposing as a as a way to get beyond barriers, I thought about it twice and I felt like, it's not fair for kids to have to advocate for themselves. It's just not fair. And then I thought the second time about it, and I said, but you know what, if we listen to the children, the very persons whose lives we expect to change, then maybe we can do

something about this equity issue. Maybe we can do something about this. And so I dug in and I listened to this woman and I listened to her talk about the changes that she's seen come about through her advocacy model. And I think we have a you know, we have something here that we first of all, we know that no one else is designed it in this way. Well, we definitely have something here. I think they can help us a great deal in gifted education. Wow, thanks Joy

that well. And it's true Joy and I we found each other. I needed a way to look beyond the traditional gifted kids that I was serving who also needed to self advocate, but I didn't have the expertise and other populations. And when Joy and I met, she just provided so many answers to me and so many new questions to look at. And yet as we began to put our projects together, we knew there were other populations that we didn't have the depth of understanding of ourselves.

And that's why we brought together so many contributors to our book. I do want to say one thing, just going back to what Joy said a minute ago about affluent families will always find a way to get the resources their kids need. I often check on Amazon for what are the top fifty books in gifted education, and every time I look, the majority of the top ten

are test preparation ability test preparation. Because parents who want to get their kids into gifted programs have the means, the resources or whatever to buy these things to help their kids prepare for it. And so that's why one of the major things we need to do is change our identification processes and look at kids who present gifted characteristics in non traditional ways. So we can get back

to that in a little while too. But that's an important reason why we shouldn't dump gifted and talented programming. Why we need to broaden the recognition of what giftedness is. And our society in general has a very stereotypical vision of what giftedness is. It's those high achieving, high test scoring, high grade achieving, successful students who do well in school and our college bound from the beginning. How do we erase that stereotype and how do we help everyone see

the giftedness and the students beyond that stereotype. Do you want me to go on about self advocacy, Well, I have some I still have some questions from some things you just said. Good. So, first of all, it's been my reading of the literature that test preparation you really can't you can't like boost your IQ score, for instance,

substantially through test preparation. Iq' is not that malleable you know, IQ does is measuring some important set of cognitive skills that are you know, abstract reasoning and things that you know, a parent can't just pay, you know, money for their child to just walk in and get a perfect IQ

test score. So that's been part of my reading. Well, it does help to prepare, It does help to prepare students for testing and what kind of questions they'll be having and what order things might come in or what especially with young children, to prepare them for the types of things they will will be experiencing in the testing situation. And it's also true that in some schools that initial testing is not a full IQ test achievement test, I mean,

ability test score. It might be something like the Kaufman Brief Intelligence tests, or it might be you know, there are very early screeners that children in very early grades or even in kindergarten, if they haven't been exposed to them, might be confused by them. So I agree with you. We can't pay to have our kids have high or IQs. And obviously certain we know the importance of early childhood and preschool education and early experiences that allow kids to

demonstrate their gifts earlier. And so if we do screening using only ability tests and achievement tests at a very early age, we eliminate a lot of people right from the get go. Doesn't even give them a chance. Yeah, there's because not everyone is out of the gate in the same opportunities, same educational on Richmond, same Yeah. So no, at that point is very well taken. And then the second thing I wanted to bring up about what you just said is expanding the notions of giftness beyond just

achievement test scores in IQ. I'd love to get some of your thoughts on what what other things would you want to include in the definition of giftness, because I don't think that you're saying that every child's gifted in their own way? Right are you saying that? No? No, because it's because some people say that, But I roll my eyes when people say that. Quite frankly, No, not everybody's gifted. Sorry, And I rolled my eyes as well. Yes, yeah,

I don't. I don't believe in that, and I and you know, we want to have we want to make that clear because then we're in another camp all together, and we are fighting another battle that you know that I really don't want to spend time fighting. But but we do believe that there are other ways that students candemn its rate their their giftedness. In many cultures, students who are perhaps more more verbal, more orally verbal, they can talk to you and tell you things that you

can't pick up on any ability or achievement tests. And so that when schools take the time to uh to set up interviews with students or sometimes just observe students and instruction, they can see students responding to one another, and you know, if they can measure that response over time, then perhaps they'll be able to pick up some students that they would not have necessarily seen, you know, uh, you know, just by saying, okay, today we're going to

do this this big test. We're going to test everybody. Even universal screening or you know, local screen and local normy may not pick up these students. And so we have to provide other ways that we that we begin to look for gifted traits. So if teachers understand the trade number one, then they'll be able to see those traits. But they won't see them if they don't understand them, if they don't understand that there's a kid that comes, you know, out of a out of a very say,

a very poor community. But this kid has a vocabulary that that will rival any child coming from anywhere because they pick up on language. You know, they do it so quickly, so easily, and they can tell you those things if you if you take the time to listen. So I think sometimes we just have to have a better sense about what giftedness looks like in children across population groups. And then you know, what can we do differently?

You know, how can we listen to these children? How can we set up instruction that you know, we can they can demonstrate what their gifts are. But it is it's time consuming, it takes money perhaps, But I think we do a lot of students a great injustice when we don't train teachers, and then teachers come in with a perception that they if those kids are not like the kind of kids that they spoke about a moment ago, then then they're not gifted, you know, So we have

to change our understanding of what gifted traits are. And you know how they're manifested in any classroom setting with any group of students. So teachers have to be a part of that. But we also, Scott, have to engage parents. You know, we both work with parent groups all the time, and parents can tell you some very unique things about

these kiddos that mirror their research. You know, I've talked to parents who told me about the kinds of things that child did when they were toddler, you know that was so different from the other children perhaps in the family or other children in the community. And again we just have to expect that any parent almost can say there's some things about my kid that makes them different. But we want to be able to give parents a chance to tell us, you know, those kinds of things

as well. So, yes, there are other ways. We just have to invest a little more time and a little more energy and sensitivity and sensitivity you know, into looking for those kinds of traits across population groups. And no, not all children are gifted. No, not all children are gifted. That's not what we're saying. I'm not what I'm ever saying. I am suggesting though, that they're children almost in any community that can demonstrate giftedness, and not every child is

gifted at a single moment in time. Is possible to be ungifted like I was as a kid and to become gifted? Is that possible? Am I gifted now that I got a YELPGD? Does that count? I would absolutely say so? And I think or am I just like? Am I just faking it? Am I faking it? Well? We tend to think of giftedness as being connected with the educational system, right. I've had students say to me, do you think my mom was gifted? She was in a gifted program when she was a school. Do you

think she used to be gifted? It's like if a gifted individual is a gifted individual, and an educational setting provides more struggles, more complications sometimes than the outside world. But giftedness does evolve. Do you know the work of Francois Gana and how gifts yea, how they grow? Yeah, through all of these the process that goes through growing into talents and all of the effects that we bring to that process, but all of the environmental effects that

come in that process. So, of course giftedness arises at various times and is nurtured and is better understood at various times. But I also must say put on record, I do not believe that everyone is gifted. I believe that everyone can have gifts of various kinds their own

personal strengths. But if you think in terms of let's on the grade level, for instance, the educational setting, a third grade class, the vast majority of kids are going to have third grade abilities, They're going to have third grade social and emotional abilities, and then they're going to

be these outliers. These kids in whatever direction have less than third grade strengths and have more than third grade strengths, and gift to kids who have more than third grade strengths vary as much from each other as they do from the grade level kids and the grade level kids. Fortunately, in our society we have tons of help in the educational setting for those kids who struggle below third grade abilities,

their grade, social emotional awareness, that sort of thing. We don't have a lot of in place nationally for those kids who are above, and we don't have a lot in place to help teachers understand. In fact, most teachers breathe a sigh of relief. They got some kids who are above their grade level, because that means they don't

have to struggle so much with those kids. But often that leaves those kids without an appropriate challenge or enriching and without an appropriate challenge, our brightest kids won't develop those kind of skills they need to struggle to achieve something that's difficult, they don't develop. We like to call it, you know, the grits and the resilience and that sort

of thing. So that's why it's vastly important for us to identify those kids who have needs beyond where they are in the school setting and figure out how to provide those those challenges that will allow them to grow, because every kid needs to grow in school, that's what they're there. Every kid deserves to learn something new every day, and even those kids who already know what we're about to teach, there are ways that we can help them

expand beyond that. Yeah, this stuff is really tricky. You know. The NYGC defines giftedness as involving either potential or high achievement, so it can come from either path. How do you but that's so tricky in practice, especially with the kind of populations you're interested in, because a lot of them

are not high achieving. So how are you finding their potential when they're focusing just on getting like food on the table, you know, or focusing on you know, they have so many other concerns that are in their head, you know, especially if they're very dangerous violent environments, right with gangs and things like that. You know, it's how

you finding their potential. I mean, kudos to you for caring and to even say that we should look there are those with gifted potential, but how do you find it at such a young age when, especially in those conditions, it's particularly hard? Right well, Scott, that that's again you know, we you know, we can take away from the importance of teacher training, of teacher training from the very you

know day that a student will into a school. There has to be there have to be teachers in that school, in that environment who understand those kinds of things are

going on in their lives. Like you just spoke about that, that they are having to navigates, as we say, multiple worlds, and we do speak about that, you know, in our book we talk about intersectionality for example, using that same the same term, the same you know construct that kim Rii Crenshaw came up with when she was a law student and she and she first wrote about race and gender and the law and how all three of those were impactful, you know, to her as a as a

young woman studying studying the law, young black women studying the law. And so, you know, we've adopted that theme for looking at these children as well, because we're not just talking about a mind of someone with cognitive students. We're talking about someone who has a family, and within that family, they navigate through that world. They also have a community, a neighborhood. They have to navigate that world.

There's also the perception that they have to live through what people perceive of them just because they happen to be from a difficult neighborhood, people happen to be a child of color, or happen to be a student who speaks a second language or even a third language. You know, So we have language, we have family, we have community, we have their ability. You know, these are multiple worlds

that these students have to navigate every day. And so we believe that it's critically important for classroom teachers god not just to know about I mentioned it earlier, not just to know about what gifted traits are, but to know about these children as whole people, you know, to understand you know, who they are and what it is they live through. You know, this is a this is

a whole person coming into you every day. And unless you can understand those multiple worlds at any given time that this child is focusing on, you know, you know, helping a family put fluid on the table, or being the child who comes home early in the afternoon to take care of his and her siblings, you know, or being the black male student who knows he's bright, who knows he's different than some other students are, but he knows when he hits the streets he's being perceived as

a threat to society. So these kids know these kinds of things about themselves. They know it early, They know earlier on who they are and what others think about them, and they carry all this with them every day. So the piece around teacher training can't be any more critical

than we can. I mean, how many times we can say it, but this is a part of what we're you know, we're attempting to do this in this book as well, making sure that teachers understand as much as possible about each of these populations and then about you know, the ways that their worlds intersect. That piece. It is important, and you know we're working on that, and we're seeing

more and more culturely responsive coursework come up. We're seeing more and more people talk about about how students social emotional needs impact their their cognitive needs. But you know, we have to make sure that the people that these students see every day for seven eight hours a day, you know, have a clear as clear as possible understanding of who they are, of who they are. I think often our educational system focuses on disabilities of students before

they face on before they focus on their abilities. It happened for so long with twice exceptional children that districts were really quick to help them with whatever limitations they had, but often that was in place of acceleration or Enrichmond.

I had a teacher tell me once this particular child had so many times pulled out of the classroom for speech work and for dysgraphia and dyslexia and all sorts of things that they were dealing with, And I said, he really should be in our junior Great Books Discussion group because he has such a great interest in literature, and they said, well, you know, he probably can't read all the literature, and I said, well, we could read

it to him. But the focus was on helping him get to the middle as opposed to helping him expand. And I think the same thing happens frequently with other underrepresented gifted kids. I do workshops for kids on self advocacy gifted kids, and I approached two large urban districts and volunteered because I wanted to work with more urban kids, volunteered to do workshops, and the response in both was simply, we have so many other concerns. Our gifted kids have

so many other concerns. We don't have time for this. Now we have to deal with it. And my response is, so those kids who are ready to self advocate and need to self advocate right now will not develop those skills or be introduced to the concept because not everybody's ready for it now, or because there are so many other issues that are first. And I think what Joy and I fell on was maybe self advocacy comes first.

Maybe we say if people aren't meeting your needs, if your district if your school, if your teachers, if your parents aren't helping you find the challenges that make school interesting for you, Then how do you find your voice and ask for what it is you need and what you want and even to understand what it is you need and want? So what is self advocacy in as simplest terms, It's it's asking for what you want to need. Isn't it my first definition of Lord? Well, I mean,

I think all of us things like Wess. Advocacy is is a skill everybody should have, and it's great to speak up for what you want and need, whether it's in school or at the college level, or in relationships or in the workplace, in marriages and families. But it's critical for gifted kids in an educational system that doesn't recognize their outlier status and believes that they okay just where they are, and especially critical as Joy and I

have determined for those underrepresented gifted kids to find a process. Well, can I read the definition? Joy and I came up with yes because this is more specific to our underrepresented kids. And we worked really hard and long on this to figure out what we wanted to say. We feel that self advocacy it's a dynamic process. That's one of the

key things, right, It's not a one and done. It's a dynamic process that enables high potential students, not high achieve high potential students, to claim their right to an education that addresses their unique intellectual and academic, psychosocial and cultural needs, cultural needs without endangering their self esteem or that of others. And we love that last phrase too, because we know that inappropriate ways to self advocate don't

end in the desired effects. Right, kids saying this is boring, I hate this. We study this every year. Why do we have to do this again? I don't like this doesn't get them anywhere? So and yet, and also we don't want kids to ask in a way in which they get shot down and their self esteem is injured in that way too. So the second part of our definition is it's a compilation of culturally responsive, so important

and inclusive empowerment strategies. What are those strategies that open opportunities for these students for to have positive academic and life outcomes? And we added that these outcomes are previously have been precluded for some students due to stereotyping, systemic biases, and limited access to resources. Oh wait, I want to write that down. That's key. That's key stereotyping. It is limit limited resources and what limited opportunities stereotyping systemic biases

and limited access to resources. Well, well, I have a question. You know, you talk about cultural differences or considerations to what extent could certain cultural differences in appreciation for academic success cause some of these differences? You know, for instance, in the Asian community, there's a very high proportion and gift education programs. I mean, they are scoring better than the test. African Americans are not scoring as well in

the test. There's like a fifth there's still like a standard deviation difference on IQ tests, so they're not actually getting the scores. So is part of the reason like cultural differences at all? Like, I know, so you didn't mention that, like in the African American community community, do they do they put as much emphasis on young children?

And for instance, if you're like a really nerdy black kid, like, are you going to be more prone to bullying than if you're a really nerdy Asian kid within the Asian community And you know, blah Scott, that's a that's a big question and we have answers that could take us another eight hours responding to. But but I want to I want to give two examples of a black kid.

For example, a black kid who is and this is a two stories of someone using names, but a black kid who is a very high achiever identified as gifted young. He's attending the specialized high school half day and the other half day he's in his his back in his home high school. He's also star athlete. So this kid is on the bus riding to the specialized school for half day, is the only black kid on the bus. The others are white and Asian students. There are no

black females. He's the only black kid on the bus. He was attending the school for his tenth, eleventh, and twelfth grade years, so he was going for a good time to that particular school. He was repeatedly bullied on the bus by his white and Asian peers and said and by calling by saying that he was too black to be gifted, to be gifted, it is up, pardon me, you're right, yeah, So this is what was said to him.

And after in the morning, going going to this high level you know, science technology, science program and the after news. On the other hand, he was going he was going to practice athletic practice with his predominantly black peers, some that he knew from the community he grew up with and all that, and they would say to him that he was he wasn't black enough. He was acting white. Yeah, he's talked like a white boy. He was hanging with the white boy was he can't you can't win. So

what what pulled this kid out? What pulled this kid out was the support from home. He did have a mom who went to a gifted program. He he his mother understood on a very personal level what that kind of taunting could do to a person's soul. And between the mother and a very large extended family, the support they gave him enabled this kid to uh to get through the high school experience and get into college and

get out in three years. Interestingly, you know enough, this kid had had his choice of attending pretty much any predominantly white university on the East Coast because his scores were high, he was performing, you know, he was a big besides he was he was an athlete too, of course, so but he chose to go to a small HBCU, go to a small HBCU, so he he says, a historically black college and universities. We have a number of them across the nation, and the majority of the students

that attend HBCUs or black students. Matter of fact, I worked at one for about five years, not too long ago. But anyway, his experience there, he said, enabled him to uh to be himself, to be him self. So that what he found at the HBCU that maybe he didn't have in his own school. He found other scholarly black students that he could walk with on campus, talk with. They didn't tease him, they didn't taunt him, and it

was okay to be smart. It was okay and cool to be smart with this particular group of kids and then also do all the other kinds of things he wanted to do in his life. So now he felt like he was whole. But it took him that experience to get beyond the hate and the aggravation and the bullying, the taunting that he was going through in his in his high school, doing those three years of high scho school. Again, had it not been, you know, for that support of

that family, the strong mother, the father, the grandmother. It was a huge family and they circled around him. They circled around him and gave him the support that he needed, and he was able to pull out. Because not every kid can pull out. Not every kid can pull out. I've read stories. I know, students. Not everybody survives in this in this world that we live in, where we are told so often you're too black to be gifted, or you're not black enough, you're not black enough. But

then there's these other kids. I'm gonna tell you about three more kids, and I'm gonna let I'm gonna get this back to death. I sat in on a I guess it was an advisory meeting with with three students not too long ago. All three of the students had a chance to go to one of these same kinds of schools, and they decided they didn't want to. They

pulled out. They all three pulled up pretty much at the same time, which was very unfortunate because the school was, you know, prestigious, you know, high performing, get that on your resume, you can pretty much go wherever you want to go. Well, each of the girls came in and told a group of US adults why they wanted out of the school. But there was one kid and this DEV. You would you would if I could have taped it, I would have said, oh my god the whole time

I said, Dev. Douglas needs to hear this girl. DEV needs to hit this girl. There was one kid who I guess they were tenth grade. I have to say ninth or tenth grade. One of them was very, very mature, though, but she spoke as if she had written our book

on UH on self empowerment, on self advocacy. She said to us that there were people in her school who looked down upon them, stereotype them, stereotype them, and said things to them that made them feel as if they were less than the other students and didn't have a sense about what it meant to be a black female in that kind of an environment. So this kid says to this group of adults, by now, it should be normalized that classroom teachers understand what it means to be

black and gifted. It should be normalized that classroom teachers. When she said normalized, I was like, wow, you know I was called oh dad, But I I didn't make any faces or she was clear that she felt as if the teachers in that environment did not understand what they were going through when they felt as if they were alone, they didn't belong. They were being called out because of

the particular school districce that came from. They were being called out because of their ethnicity, being called out because of their gender, and she felt as if the teachers. She said, by now, and this is by now, she means, she means in this century, that they should be it should be normalized that teachers would know better, would know better.

So there are these kids out there, you know, Scott, who have this self advocacy thing down path already because some of them are just a little more outspoken than others, perhaps a little wiser. But then there's other kids who probably are in the same situation who need the skill set that we promote in this book. They need that skill set. They need educators to understand how to teach them how to speak up for what they need and what they want and what's going to help propel them forward.

But you have to know these kids in order to do that. And that's why I think it's really important that we call on these experts in these particular areas to say, these are the skills that teachers need to have. If you're going to work with a twice exceptional the kid for self advocacy, if you're gonna work with lgbt Q student, if you're gonna work with black students, ELLL students, if rule you know, these are the skills you need to have. They can all come to the same end.

They can all be good better at self advocacy, but you need to be You need to know these kids in order to in order to move them, propel them forward. So there's a great need out there, Scott, I'm glad you asked that questions. There's a huge need out there, you know, for educators to better understand and, as this kid say so eloquently, to normalize this kind of behavior

that teaches no better. Yes, normalize it, yes, hash tag normalize it and get rid of these situations where kids are being said, you're to this and you're you're not enough of that. You know you're to this and you're not enough of that. It's it's just wrong. It's wrong, but it happens every day. So we're going to try to staff some of that. Well, it's wrong that you have more white language than I used. You said, it's wrong. I said, that's more polite. You're more polite than me.

Oh fucked up? Okay you No, you're you're very classy. You're a very classy woman. Joy. Okay, so let's keep this line of thought going. We're talking about the barriers to self advocacy. You know, you just you just mentioned, uh, we just talked about some cultural but you just mentioned some others to me, deb you know, you said, women opportunities,

systemic biases, limit access to resources. Do you want to kind of riff on that, expand on that at all, well, a little bit more, and also both the cultural barriers.

Joy and I didn't understand the specific barriers that different populations might experience, and that's why we turned to experts in the field of gifted education, you know, who have done the research themselves, but also grew up as members of that those special populations and had personal experiences and understood from many perspectives what kids might be going through.

And one of the interesting things we learned, for instance, because I learned so much from what our contributors added, is that if you think, for instance, about Latin x or as she liked to call them, Hispanic families, the cultural setting is you do with what the school says you should do and you family is important, so you certainly wouldn't want to send your kids to a school

somewhere else it's not your community school. There are those some of those beliefs, and so I won't go into all the various cultural differences, but those are some of the barriers to kids getting the education they need. And so in cases like that, what we've found is, how can we help the students who have begun to understand themselves and theirs and their talents and what that means

for their education. How can we help them work with their families to better understand How can we communicate better with the families about about their child's needs and how we hope to address them, and how do we how do we help that child take the lead in that conversation between the school and their families. So that's that's one of the barriers, but it's also one of the ways of addressing those barriers, those cultural barriers. Good good,

So well, what are their resources? What are the resources do educators need? You know? What else is valuable here too for people who are listening to this and want something quick they can institute in their school. Number One, I think when we recognize children with gifts and talents, we need to help them learn how to self advocate.

And that's, as we said, as a dynamic process. How do we how do we help them assess and reflect on themselves as learners and what their strengths are and accept the fact that they may not be brilliant across the board, they may have some struggles and they may have to work at some things. Their interests, their preferences, their intellectual ability, their academic strengths, all those things. And once they recognize that was, how do we help them

understand that they have a right to something different? Because that's even what our federal definition of giftedness says, that these are students who are potential and in many different ways and may need something beyond the regular classroom, and so they have a right to that and we want to provide them with that. We're just not always aware

or able to do that. So when they aren't getting what they feel they need to be challenged appropriately challenged, they have a responsibility to work with us to do that. I think gifted kids often think we can read their minds and we know when things aren't going right, but nobody knows better than they do. When they're at school every day, walk in the hall, sitting in classes, interacting

with their teachers and their peers. No one knows better than they if they are getting the education that they know they want and need, and that can change from day to day, from teacher to teacher, semester di semester, subject to subject. They have to they have to be able to feel they have a responsibility to come to us and say either this is this is okay right now, I'm happy not having the challenge I need, or this isn't going right for me. I need some help in

changing this. They need to know the other part of that dynamic processes. They need to know what options exist or could exist, and they need to know who the adults are around them, the advocates who can help them make those changes. And once they have those those kind of that information and those insights and those those strategies, then they feel empowered to take charge of their own education to make it be what they want it to be.

And as I said, sometimes that maybe to say to us, no now right now, thank you, I don't want to

challenge in that area. I'm quite happy with this, but I want to challenge here, but that assumes that we as educators have built a relationship with them so that we and we can follow them through where we can help educators next year, follow them through and when the time is right for them to pick something more challenging or to design something more enriching or whatever it is, their goal is where they're listening to them and empowering

them to make their own decisions. Beautiful, you know. Obviously, self advocacy is important for any child of any race, of any background who is overlooked in an education system. It could be someone with the neurodiversity, with autism that their gifts are not being recognized. It could be you know, so many different, so many different things. I'm obviously very very very passionate about what you all are doing, and it's I've been trying to stay as impartial as possible.

But I must also say that this is also very personal. You know. As a kid, self adacy was the only thing that made anyone pay attention to me and my potential, you know, to even be college bound. And when I went around, you know, my book on gifted came and I went around to special ed schools talking about my story and self ABSKU is the one thing that I told the kids that they should have. So I was so delighted to read your book. It was so emotionally

resonant with me. But I've been trying to stay very impartial. But it's very hard for me to not be emotional when it comes to this topic, and I very rarely get emotional in this podcast. So how did you develop that skill? Let me just collect myself for a moment. I think I developed that. See, I had something within me that I think I got genetically from my mother, and that's called grit. I do think I My mom is a very strong world woman. It drove me crazy

growing up because she was very overprotective of me. But but I think I recognized similar characteristics. I there was something within me. You know, people, a lot of people came asking me why did I fight my way out of special and the other kids in the special bedroom? Didn't you know? Why? Me? Why? And I just think there was something within me where I saw an injustice.

And I also saw an injustice with the other kids in the classroom, which is why I when I was a very young age, I said I'm going to grow up someday and change the system. You know, it's just it's a perceived injustice that just again, for lack of a better word, I was like, this is fucked up. Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. And you know, Scott and I you know, I read your book as well, and I could see so many people that I knew in that book and

that story. You know. But like I said about that girl and that meeting, she was just so different than the others that nobody had actually coached her into speaking up. She just spoke up, and she, you know, two minutes into the meeting. It felt as if she was another adult at the table because she was just clearly, you know, aggravated about the situation. But she but graceful and also the language that she used made it clear that she

knew exactly what was needed to change the conditions. And again, she was not just speaking, like you said, she wasn't just speaking for herself. She was speaking for every other kid that came along behind her who may have had to have the same kind of an experience. And they're just those people on the earth, and we're so grateful for the Scott Barry Kaufmans, you know, on the Earth and so grateful for this young lady and and and others who who will model that kind of self advocacy.

But for those who don't have the skill set and can't model it, we need we need people like you, like this girl, like some of the others that would come across. We need them to speak up by all avacate kids. And we need this, this, this whole group of stakeholders to be a part of this process. Teachers, counselors, administrators, We need everybody who is anybody in the system and even outside of the system, to be a part of this process and and enable and allow these kids to

speak up. First of all, some of us and I and I say us, because I was one of those kids. I was a spokesperson for the whole world growing up. You know, I haven't changed the whole lot, I guess over these years. You know I was, Yeah, I was a student counselor person. I was the one who there the march out of the school. I was the one who went to the board meetings at fifteen and you know I was that you know, I was that one,

and I encouraged I hope I did. I encourage others who came and whispered in my ear, who were afraid to say anything out loud, you know, but you know, we need to build a world, build a world like this where and this is why I think this project is so important, that I think we need to build a world where all of these kids are self empowered, where all of them understand what advocacy is, and they all, you know, feel confident that they have the skills they

need and that there are other people you know, who have gone before that have done this and it was it worked, you know. In our book of Scott before we close out, we do have a chapter by students, a group of students that we met in Florida, and those kids blew me away. They literally blew me away

when I went to their conference. They had a symposium that they planned and invited me in as a keynote speaker, and I spoke for a few minutes and then sat down and listened to them for the next forty five minutes. And as I listened to them, my face was just

a wash with tears. I was so taken, you know, by their strength, by their willingness to tell their stories, even per stories, in front of a whole crowd of people and why it was important for them to have a chance to tell this story because they wanted to pay the way for other kids coming behind them to make it better. And so if we give kids this kind of we build a culture, I would say, where they have the opportunities and they and they can speak out and speak up. I think we can change things.

And this is what this is why I got hooked up with Dev Douglas. I have to say it again. I got hooked up with Dad because I saw an opportunity here for us to take a different look at the equity issues and how can we really make some some significant changes that are sustainable. We can come through Student Voice and do it. We can go through student agency and do it. We've been we failed at it miserably in other ways. And I you know, I'm not going to use the word you use, Scott, but that's

the way I feel sometimes about this equity work. You know, we've failed that. It's just really you know, and and it's still fighting. We're still fighting, but this this way is different. This way we come at it from a different angle. And maybe people will listen now because the kids are going to speak up, They're going to tell it the same things we were saying, but it's gonna come from their voices, from their hearts, and I think that's really really important for us to listen to them.

Thanks Alaska, we appreciate you so much. I appreciate you guys as well, so so much. I'm gonna end here with a poem by Langston Hughes called Harlem. What happens to a dream deferred? Does it dry up like a raisin in the sun, or fester like a sore and then run? Does it stink like rotten meat or crust in sugar, or like a shirpy suite? Maybe it just SAgs like a heavy load, or does it explode? Well? Well, thank you so much for the incredible work you're doing

to not defer dreams. You know, it's it's really uh so important, and and especially now with a gift education as a field under attack, you know. So anyway, thank you so much. And I'm going to lost for words here. Thank you for this chance to share our passion. We can't change the system, but the kids can change the system, and that's where we want to empower them. I love it, I love it, Thank you, thank you, Thanks for listening.

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