How to Increase Your Sexual Pleasure || Kenneth Play and Madison Sloane Holland

sex expert and sex educator. Named quote the World's Greatest sex hacker by GQ. He has been featured by more than one hundred media outlets, including The New York Times, Men's Health, Cosmopolitan, and The Huffington Post. He is the creator of the Sex Hacker pro series, and he is author of the book Beyond Satisfied. His work has helped

millions of men gain lasting confidence and competence. Madison swoln Holland is a sex empowerment coach, intimacy expert, and co host of the top rated sex podcast Pleasure Positive Living. In this episode, I talked to Kenneth and Madison about how to increase sexual pleasure. Most people fail to realize their full sexual potential, partly because sex education in America is fear and shame driven. As a result, people turn to different forms of media, which can create unrealistic expectations

and increase insecurities. In this episode, Kenneth and Madison dispel the most common sex myths and talk about how we can empower both men and women to take charge of their own pleasure. This was such a fun conversation with two people who are so sex positive as well as empowering. I really hope that you listen to this podcast with an open mind, and I hope it empowers you to reach your full sexual potential and increase the connections and

intimacy with others in your life. So, without further ado, I bring you Kenneth play and Madison. Sloane Holland, Kenneth and Madison, it is so great to have you on the Psychology potodcast. Thank you. Yeah, I'm so excited. It's gonna be great talking to you both. Well, this is going to be a fun conversation. You know, this is going to be a fun one. It's on sexual pleasure and you two are experts on that topic. First of all, what's it like to be an expert on sexual pleasure.

I mean, does that a little bit of an ego boost at all? Or do you try not to think about that too much? You try to stay humble and all that caveats. I would say for me, it's a healthy balance of the two. I say that with as much humility as I can. I mean, definitely, it's noticeable for the lovers that I interact with. I happen to be polyamorous and married, so I do engage in outside situations other than with my husband, and I do get positive reviews and feedback, and I do my best to

not let my eco take over. And I certainly I think brag in a healthy way about my sex game, but all in the name of having others feel safe to explore their own sexuality. Excellent, Kenneth. Kenneth, what's your response to this. I never thought I will be a sex expert. You know, I was so sexually insecure, and my journey is really about overcoming my insecurity and finding confidence to by increasing my confidence in This is kind of awkward, actually, like I prefer to be the underdog.

I realize when people think I'm a sex exprest that pressure is not necessarily enjoyable for me. I thought I would like it, but in reality, like I get embarrassed most of the time when people talk to me that way. I still most of the time, even though I have worked a lot on developing my expertise to me is

still skill sharing. You know, it's not necessary that like I'm the expert, I'm going to train you on X y Z. I think everybody's sexual expression is unique to themselves, so I don't necessarily teach other people to be more like me, but like having you be more like yourself. And that's been a really fun journey. And you have this book. It's called Bed Satisfied, A Hacker's Guide to Endless Orgasms, mind blowing connections and lasting pleasure. Soundly good things.

That sounds like really good things. GQ has called Yeah, I'm doing doing exactly what you don't like, you know, abiliting, But GQ calls you the world's greatest sex hacker. What does hacking mean in the sex context? And you know, there's like the biohacking space, which I can kind of wrap my head around, but what does it mean in the sex space to be a hacker, to be a sex hacker. I've been in the fitness industry for fifteen years.

So biohacking and finess hacking always been part of, you know, part of that industry, like how do you reduce your body fat? Got muscle? How do you encreciate Endura's vertical jump? So when I dive into sexuality, I realized there have been sex hackered through our human history, like Kamma Stutre from India. You could think of the bond of shabari Are from Japan, all the Victorian era when they created

the vibrated, all those different technique modality. It's different sex hack that people have created over time to enhance sexual experiences. So as a modern day sax hackert, what I love is about collecting new sex hack and science has a lot to do with it. We have learned a lot more about sexuality and there's different ways to how do you get to a place where you could feel aroused when you are struggling with getting aroused? So how can you use signed to set up an environment where you

could be in your parasynthetic nervous system. It's an interesting hack. There's one crazy one lately. I'm not prescribing this, don't play it after on TV, but For some people who have deal with severe sexual trauma, taking a beta blocker could reduce the physical sign of reacting to the physical trauma, then pledge you could happen again. So I'm thinking all these different ways that people have figured out how to enhance the sexual experiences, and that's why I love the

term sex hacking. What do you both see as some major blocks to sexual pleasure? You know, I often like to think with self actualization, like when I work with clients and my self actualisation coaching stuff, It's like, what do you think are the major blocks to your own self actualization? How are you getting in your own way? How do people get in their own way in terms of sexual pleasure. First, I want to just lay the

groundwork for sex education in our country. I think this has a lot to do with how we how educated we are by a certain age, and so you know, a lot of the sex education in this country is about abstinence, is about don't get pregnant and be careful of STDs. But there really is an education in our system about pleasure. And you know, you can see by Canna's birds and the accessory the birds in the best conversation as kids, if you think about the conversation you

had with your own parents. Maybe you were fortune to have your parents actually call your genitals by their proper names, but many of us, we were taught to call our genitals slang names, not what the proper naming of our genitals are, which taught us from a really young age that to shame our bodies, to shame these parts of our bodies. You know, the elbow is an elbow, but for some reason we're going to refer to the vagina

or penis as a huha. Right, makes no sense from a scientific standpoint to not name our body parts that they are. And often this lack of education about our bodies and what they're capable of. And you know, for example, how to masturbate, we don't talk about that necessarily openly with our kids, with the current system that's in place. How to experience pleasure. We talk about the other often scary things with sex, the more fear driven tactics to

the educational conversation that is sex. And so we go on our journey and we find porn and we learn a lot about sex from porn. And I'm a host of one of the top rated sexuality podcasts the Pleasure Positive Podcast, and we've interviewed some of the most renowned people in our industry, one of which being a sex workers rights activists Nina Hartley, who's also famous porn star.

Yeah you vote no, Nina, and she says a very famous quote, which is, you don't learn sex from porn, just like you wouldn't learn how to drive a car from watching Fast and Furious. And so that's good, that's good, and yet we without the proper pleasure education in our system. This is what's happening, is we're learning a lot about sex and a lot about our bodies from basically movies and fantasy situations that are made up in a lot

of cases. So when it comes to the sex education conversation, where where we take a stand is really informing people about pleasure education. For example, oh, you know a woman has there are five different types of cltoruses and they all like different stimulation, and they all like different things.

And so when we start to talk about pleasure education, we can really get more in touch with our own bodies and our own body sensation and really take the shame out of it and make this a really accessible conversation. Two folks, I think it's really interesting where people kind of like pleasure block themselves. Besides just studying like sexual pleasure, I also co founded a sex positive community where we have like events and different things and their true founding

pillar is desire, your desire and belonging. So in order for someone to experience pleasure, they have to be authentic to themselves, like what actually arouses them, what turns them on, and they have to be able to celebrate whatever that arouses them and turns them on. And then usually they want to feel a sense of belonging and what turns

them on, what feels good to them. So usually is if someone having a difficult time experiencing pleasure, they have bought into one of the box that they're supposed to be so they go like, oh, sex is only normal like this, so I should like this, and if I don't like this, there's something wrong with me. So the idea is to really embrace the things that actually arouses them, right as long as it is with two consenting adults, right that they could make sure negotiate like each other's

well being. And the second part is that we do want a sense of acceptance to the things that arouse us us and turn us on so and on the on the scientific sense, so there's like the psychological arousal. You also have to receive the type of sensation that works for your body and your everybody's is everybody's body is slightly different, but we don't necessarily educate people how

they're different. So so when I was researching for the book, I really dig really deep into like why does this particular vote are preferred to be touched slightly off like one o'clock off the clid, and some people will only get off and touching their pupid mound and nowhere need a clip, and some people only prefer internal stimulation, and why some people only get off from being spanked, Like how how do we make sense of all of those things?

And their discovery is quite fascinating. It has to do with you know, both nature and nurture and also the environment and how all those things get wired in in your sexual development phase. So all those things take into account kind of creates a unique blueprint to each individual what does it for them? But we really don't get to choose that much. Once that creation is formed, it's flexible,

it's fluid to a port. But I think the foundation is that you have to go with what actually does it for you and most of the couple that ever coach. I can tell you a quick story about this couple that be married for thirty years and they have like okay sex life. It's kind of like okay, we have sex and it's okay, and then both party never share

they have kinky fantasy. Like is a Bible bell couple who is super religious but have a difficult time accepting the fifty grade of shape turns them on both for both of them, but they just never have their ability to share that that's what's arousing for them and when they are giving each other permission to express that part of this actuality Allison, after Dirty Year, everything clicks for them.

So sometime is really about celebrating the thing that works with them and figure out a way to negotiate them and also receive their experience and touch that you know they're really yearned for. I love that. Do you think that most people in our let's talk about American society are not living up to their sexual potential, Like there's so much more that they could experience they don't even know as possible. Would would you say that's a fair statement.

I would say that from my standpoint, yes, what about you kind of you know, coming from the fitness industry, if most people never have trained their body like consistently with sort of like a good fitness protocol, they don't know what their body is capable off. Right, Like our body is also capable off like being a mathon runner versus a powerlifter, and you might have some talent for like they're two extreme side right. One is like lifting one thing really heavy for one second. The other thing

is like running twenty six mile. The body is physically capable for both. And I'm not everybody needs to be a sexual Olympian necessarily, but that's why, like I love the education side because the growth mindset that you can adapt to sexuality is so huge. People don't know the orgasmic potential if they are willing to train it. And that's when all the ancient protocol like Tantra or Kingster have figured out how to keep like push that like

can they feel more? Can they can? They have so much orgasm and this extended rolling orgasm, they feel like they meet that maker, like they have a psychedelic experience. But it require just like meditation or fitness that it requires of this growth mindset and training protocol to develop that. But we look as access that is it just an innate distincttionial thing, either your bond being good at bad or you have to write equipment or you don't. So I think my message from my book is really about

that growth mindset. We so underestimate what is possible without putting their investment on our sexuality. My mentor, Abraham Maslow, the humanistic psychologist, talked about this a little bit in some of his unpublished writings. I came across these like people don't know what their sexual heights could be, especially linking it to transcendence, which is that's that's where the topic where I feel more comfortable talking about is. I see you have my book up there, thank you so much.

In what ways are you interested in helping people reach transcendence through sexual behavior? Yours transcendent states of being, getting outside yourself, you know, not being so self focused, and even spirituality? You know this is I'm so fascinated between the link between sexuality and spirituality. Can we riff on that a little bit? So? I love to speak from experience, and I'll try anything three times because I believe the first time you try something, there's that component I'm trying

for the first time. The second time is all was a little scarier, and then the third time, you know, you really know of something's for you. And I went on this personal journey of yeah for me, I was very interested when I explored my such sexuality in maximizing my sexual potential right having longer orgasms, having more orgasms,

having stronger orgasms. And on that journey that let me down a path of tntra of completely exploring the exploration of where science, where this sexuality is a spiritual conversation. I have had the same partner of this entire journey, of this process I've been on who I've been able to experiment with and through both self pleasure so masturbation as well as partnered practice. Here I am. I started

my journey almost seven years ago. I am absolutely multi orgasmic whenever I want to be with certain things in place that I'm sure Kenneth and I will get into a little bit later. And I went on the journey of learning how to squirt and I did. I believe anything is fucking possible if you believe and you want it, and you know you're worthy of it. Anything's possible, and

I truly live my life that way. And we have an extraordinary transformational eight week coaching program we only run once a year for our community of pleasure seekers, and it's called Sex and Empowerment. And we really believe that when people, I mean me and my partners met in a my partners on the podcast met in an entrepreneurial leadership program, very corporate. We were in blazers, no cleavage allowed, and we connected and somehow, when we completed that communication

coaching program, we all became communication coaches. Inside of We took a hard left turn when we completed that and somehow started a sex podcast, and for us it was really the missing link. We worked on ourselves so much, had done so much, I would say, in the world of ontology. I was also a psychology minor, so I just was always obsessed with like understanding why and how and how things work, and the study of being human was always very fascinating to me, which is what ontology is,

what it is to be human. And we really feel that what launched our transformation or our transcendence into the stratosphere was looking at our sexuality and when we all did you know, we were all three very different. For me, I came out in my marriage and I'm still married to the same person, and to me, that's a huge breakthrough. And WIN can't imagine how many people either don't come out in their partnership and suppress that there arry life or do and then they end up having to part ways.

For one of my other partners, she was literally a thirty three year old woman who had never masturbated before, didn't know women did, and had a series of injuries along the left side of her body that she healed through masturbation. So, for us, sex is not just a

spiritual conversation, it's a health conversation. And I think that when it comes to spirituality, being deeply connected to our body, being deeply in communication with our body, being able to hear what our intuition is versus be run by our

limiting beliefs or any sort of unprocessed trauma from childhood. Right, what we're all about is really freeing people up from their past so that they can embody the kind of mindset that they know they're the creator of their reality, that they are worthy of their desires and whatever they

want to create in and out of the bedroom is possible. However, do you think it takes a major mindset either shift or like start from scratch, depending on if we're dealing with any sort of religious implications from upbringing, your et cetera. What I love about sexual experiences that it really incorporate all your sentences, both like psychological and physical, and it transcend you to a state of mind that is extremely unique.

And I don't want to butcher Adam Saffron and James Fowles, and also Ian Karna talks about this idea of in trainment, like how do you get your brain into this rhythmic state where you are your ego dissipate right, you're having a if you call it a religious experience or whatever it is, but it's a very unique state to get

your brain to when you're experiencing peak sexual experiences. Also, I look at compared to good lover to good fighters, and this the reason why is good fighters are able to man their nervous system in a way that they are could relax enough and be excited enough at the same dynad they could modulate the same amounts or you could both learn how to activate your parasitic nervous system to your sympathetic in a way that you could keep making those independent system peak at a higher level, so

you are your subjective experience is higher and higher, just like a soldier could handle like a war to handle danger, you know, or like the world was falling apart it but they could stay, they could stay calm and cool in that experience and they could manage their their state and throughout human history, like when we talked about the commistruture or the thata was practice, practitioner have learned like different ways to kind of hack that in a way

that they could experience transcendence in in their body whereas beyond themselves. And there's a lot of there's a lot of interesting about peak sexual experiences. When something is like novel is surprising, you didn't know what's possible, but it's

more pledge. Then you have a thought And that's why I actually wrote the book Beyond Satisfy, Like there's a moment when this sexual experience is so profound that you reindex your everything in your brain about what's good and that like that meal that bla like transform your life. I didn't know food could be that good, so but sex is one of those things that is we already have a drive for it, so like you don't have

to cltigue to go towards it. And when people have a mind blowing experience is and sometimes borderline addictive, right, like it was that good. So for some people it's really easy to get there. For some people it's more challenging. But I have found that when I'm able to access those states, it's really profound, like you feel like life

is good. You know, it gives you this feeling that everything is going to be okay, Like we're built to receive this, you know, this goodness, and who can believe our body is capable of experiencing those pleasure There's also something really healing for the body to tap into that level of transcendence In the bedroom, the nervous system is super relaxed after orgasm. We know that when we're in a parasympathetic state, this is where healing can happen, so

deeper sleep. So there's a lot of health benefits too. I want to call it impactful sex because not just any sex, because sex can trigger your trigger your nervous system and like actually trigger trauma. I've certainly had sexual experiences that have triggered trauma and not left my body

feeling super restored. But I think the opportunity of educating yourself and being with partners who are educated is that those kinds of satiating sexual experiences that forward your personal development and spiritual growth is available in this lifetime, and if you have a desire to have them, then you can, you know, be one step closer to calling that towards you. I think the issue comes in when people feel they

don't they don't deserve, or they're not worthy. And we see this come up a lot in long term relationships. You know, people are like, well, you know, the spark just went away. We've been together for fifteen years, and I just want to call big bullshit on all that. We work with people who are having some of the best sex of their lives into the later years of their life, and the spark is literally a chemical reaction

that's happening in the brain. When you first meet somebody and you have great sex, there is this sort of spark that can that is there's something that's happening chemically in the brain. There there is actual sparking happening in the brain. And when that goes away after however many years, depending on the couple or whatever life circumstances come in

to alter the desire that spark can be reignited. And so as an intimacy coach, this is what we this is what we do, is we really support people in creating the spark on an ongoing basis, you know. And how is it that not just me and my partners, but all of the amazing people that come through our programs that have partners, all experiencing that they feel more

in love with their partner now. And that is amazing because nothing has changed except their mindset, except whatever is in the way of their own full self actualization in relationship their intimacy prior. I'd love to add on that medicine. Like one of one of the things I love about transcendence, what was reading your book is about the idea of transcendence love right, and that's more like be love like you are love. You are love, therefore you have love

to give. And that's I think sexuality as a modality really gives opportunity for people to embody that kind of transcendence love and acceptance and celebration and then you could get yourself there and their intimacy that two people could build and I'm sure best and I've seen it in her coaching program over and over again like that is it never gets old, is what I love about it, you know, like when you witness people fall in love again, you know, after years because they have this new level

of intimacy. The sexual connection is really fulfilling and that keeps keeps me going all the time because of that. That's beautiful. I'm thinking of maybe titling this episode how to have more sexual pleasure. So if I do title it that, let's let's spend some time talking about some practical things here, you know, so we live up to that title. And one thing I think it'd be good

in this conversation. Let's first second, separate male empowerment sexual empowerment from female sexual empowerment, and let's just double click on female sexual empowerment. Then I want to talk about a male as well, but let's start on female sexual empowerment. What do you both of you and your experience and the science that you've looked at this as a science podcast, have you found are some of the biggest blocks for women being able to express their full sexuality without shame,

without in its most fullest sense. You know, what are some things? So yeah, I want to talk about the orgasm gap. Actually in terms of female sexual and powerment. There was a study done in twenty sixteen from the Archives of Sexual Behavior. This included folks who were lesbian, gay, and bisexual FYI, and ninety five percent of heterosexual men reported that they usually are always orgasm during sex, and that was compared to only sixty five percent of heterosexual women,

who were the least likely. And then the study it was also found that thirty nine percent of women said they always orgasm when they masturbate, compared to six percent during sex. So women say that they orgasm thirty nine percent when they masturbate, but when they have penetration with another partner it's six percent. And this is called the orgasm gap. And simply put, it's just that penis owners

are coming a lot more than volvo owners. And so orgasm equality is really important understanding why do men reach orgasms so much more than women. And not to say that sexual empowerment means orgasm. However, a lot of women, you know, we just want to have good orgasms in the bedroom or at least have one right and so the entire Clitterist is my show that is a top

rated sexuality podcast. The Pleasure Positive Podcast used to be called clit Talk for the first five years that we were in existence, and only we only changed our name just in November of twenty twenty two due to censorship. We're going to come back though, once we take over

the world, We're going to come back as clit Talk. However, we've been really passionate about the clit conversation, and as I mentioned a little bit earlier, that was very empowering for us to discover that there were five different types of clits and to learn that me and my fellow partners over at the Pleasure Positive Podcast all had different clit sizes and we all could attest to the reality of that and how we were all liking those sensations that are for our style clit and learning that was

very empowering. When it comes to female sexual power empowerment, there is a bit of an epidemic I think going on amongst our community, which is the sounds something like this. Maybe you've both heard this before, Well, he just didn't couldn't make me orgasm. There's so much in that statement. I love that because those are the perfect people to come to our program, because pleasure is your responsibility. If it's our body, it's our responsibility. We our body can

already orgasm without that person. That means that nobody can make you come. They can just facilitate your body's own innate ability to do something. And so if we can start to understand that pleasure is our responsibility and we stop blaming our partner for our lack of pleasure or blaming the world that we don't have a partner to experience pleasure with, we can get really empowered around our personal sexual empowerment because then it's so exciting that it's like,

pleasure is my responsibility. Well, now it's what do I want to learn? What do I want to do? What do I want to know? And that's a beautiful, beautiful place to be when it comes to sexual empowerment for females. Wow, Kenneth, I know that you do workshops. You did a scorting workshop recently the advice covered and there's a YouTube. Maybe

I'll put the link in the show notes. And you start off your sessions with the discussion of the science behind it is that right, Yeah, I think their orgasm gap and the pleasure gap has many reasons behind it. So scientifically speaking, when you look at as male arousal and malgenital like when we get arouse, we see erection. It's very clear that you see your own penis being erect and is really easy to access it and manipulate in a way to give yourself consistent stimulation to reach orgasm.

So if you're the person with a penis, you are doing the penetrating, just say right, you could calibrate your own sensation the way that it feels good to you

consistent enough to reach orgasm. So the problem is that when in a typical heterosexual couple standpoint, if you're on the receptive end, you're just being penetrated and you don't have that much control over the sensation you're receiving and you're not moving your body to generate the sensation consistently, then you might not have their appropriate of your actual preference of how you like to be similar to reach orgasm.

So there is sort of first we like think two P and V sex is the only sex is a huge sex myth, Right, It's about the receiving consistent stimulation that works for you, that drives up arousal. So and unfortunately we don't teach females how to take charge of creating that sensation that feels good like it's not just on the receptive end. So that's one thing, But it's crazy that we think female orgasm is more difficult and

harder to reach and more complicated. It's totally I see their pleasure and orgastic potential and female body way better than male. If I get if there's such thing as I get to come back the second time, I totally want to clit and a female brain instead of a penis and a male brain because I see the sheer amount of orgasmic potential extended orgasm, and forty seven percent of female have reported in the org Yes research that

they are capable of having multiple orgasm. In order for most male body people to have multiple orgasm, they really have to train themselves to separate ejaculation from the subjective experience of orgasm, right like the contraction and they're feeling in their brain. Also, I think Emily Legaci in her book their comments, your is really important to talk about erotic context because it's not just the physical sensation. So it's not just body just sexual stimulation. You have to

have an erotic context that arousessue. So you might be receiving the sensation, but you're totally turned off by the situation. So we don't talk about how important is to have the right erotic context with the rtosexual stimulation. But it's

also not rocket science. So if you could make sure that person has aroused, relaxed enough, and getting the sensation that that person prefer and most of the time, so usually you could tell by their masturbation habit if they usually come this way, they already have the conditioning, like the neuro conditioning that this path is trained, so it works most of the time. So imagine you are a straight guy having a first time hook up right with someone and they said, hey, we're not going to touch

the head of your penis. You never have an orgasm with your prostate. We just got to peg you and we expect you to have an orgasm. Of course, it doesn't work because this person never learned. You could learn to have a prostate orgasm, right, it could work, but that is not the preferred way for this individual. So it's so and for most male they will live a entire they will die happy, right, only able to come from stimulation of their penis, right, never touched their prostate.

But and yet at the same time, we you know, there's so many sex myth like a matrol orgasm is to like internal stimulation. So doesn't matter if your biological sex as male, female, there's internal sensation, it could feel an external sensation, and they're distinct ran a different pathway. One is more somatic and one is more a visual where it's like this full body experience and that preference.

It really depends on the individual. Doesn't matter what sex, what a biological sex, to your gender expression, to your orientation is. It's just just like I like spicy versus I like sweet. It's just two different flavor. Some people like a blend of those twos, and people like individual. But most of the time when you put if you put a straight couple on a hookup situation of the first time sex, they're just not having the stimulation that does it for them. They're trying to do this thing

that is not reliable for most people. So I really am so passionate to end the myth that like female orgasm is more difficult, the harder to pleasure. I don't

think so. In fact, I think is easier and better and we just need better education on how to do it the literal part, Like if your female partner don't want to tell you what they like and don't and don't know what they like, go with the lowest hanging fruit, because we know more female will prefer external stimulation to reach orgasm than internal alone, So make sure you touch the clip like most penis owner, most guys would like the head of the penis touch doing sex in order

to have orgasm. So I think it would just do that, more people would have more orgasms. Wow, I hope people are taking notes here who are listening to this? So I mean, if people really applied your research in the fullest way, do you see in that positive on the

world totally? Because it's not that difficult. I think, you know, when I was writing the book is maybe one collar semester worth of information, but no one really regrets being great in dead and is really not that hard, right, Like, and once you learn, you are so much better than the people who are not educated. I love this analogy.

JACKO have this amazing like more Military Leadership podcast he talks about you know, if you if you if someone gives you a puzzle that you never saw before, right, and then it seems like how the hell this puzzle is solved? But once you see it once, then you never forget how that puzzle itself. Why wouldn't you? We want to watch how people solve all those puzzles already. This is not new puzzles, like humans been around forever. We have figured out how to do all of those things.

But if you could watch people already did that, then you you your education will perceive your experience, and then you could you could approach this situation with so much more insight. So if you just winging it and go instinctiow, then you all like different than you're getting into a fistfight, right, you never learn how to fight. But if you had three months worth of training in you worlds apart, so you don't have to be the best fighter in the UFC,

but that you know one semester worth of investment. Is the gap is like so big and sometimes people like what they need to correct, what they need to calibrate, it's just two millimeters away. Like I have coach client, she just don't like a clip lick directly slightly above the hood. That's all the difference is that tiny, right, and yet never reach aorgasm to reaching algasm consistently. So

that's why I value this. It's amazing. I'd like to talk a little bit about male sexual empowerment and maybe some misconceptions there because I don't hear as much about that. There's so much and maybe it's a correction for the past, but all these kind of workshops and things there seems to be such a focus on women or and rightly

so for a lot of ways. But do you think there are some misconceptions that we have about male sexual pleasure that all the male needs to do is ejaculate, for instance, and then they're satisfied and that's about the height of their satisfaction, you know, so we we don't need to have any workshops for them because that's Do you think that there are some of these kinds of

misk is that a misconception? For instance, being rock hard on command is part of that, Like those myths, right, those man myths they need to be rock hard on command, that you know, their penises can't go flaccid during sex.

All of these are myths like these are absolutely and and from personal experience dating several different men and also being married to a man, I'm finding, like a comment, I'm doing like my own primary research right now, I get like a five male lovers, including my husband, and I'm like seeing a common denominator between all of them, which is that to actually be turned on, they need emotional connection. These are just happens to be with the

men that I'm connecting with. I don't think, I don't want to put blanket statement and say that everyone requires emotional connection to be turned on. But what I am finding is the men that I'm connecting with that are very the very they usually are on the spectrum of bisexual, pan sexual, queer, you know, more leaning towards the desire of having a female partner. Right, So that level of like where they are in terms of their sexuality and

orientation is like they want to manifest a female partner. However, they couldn't imagine going the rest of their life without being able to be with the same sex and with the very heart opened individuals, you know, nice balance of masculine and feminine energy, not overly masculine males. Okay, so I'm asto sort of setting like a like, this is what my pool of research, getting pigs in my research

study are. Okay, I'm giving you like my sample group here and for these for these people, they all require this emotional connection. This is new for me. I started my journey of sexuality hating when anyone would text me after I slept with them, like I was like, oh what, Like I just wanted casual sex. I didn't want any emotional ties. I didn't really want to talk much about

it to being. You know, once I actually got educated and had my own transformation through my own sexual awakening, I realized that my very nature is to actually grap founded upon having an emotional connection before having sex. So to me, that makes sense. I'm attracting that which I am putting out my own values, and I also believe like that is I'm interested in only really having sexual connections with people who also value that. That's a sort of long way of answering your question. A thing I

do think that it is. I do think that men want more than just penetration. And I'm going to allow the man sexpert here to speak to the rest of this. I totally agree with sort of dispressure on having a erection on demand like lasting as long as all night long and have a rock hard dick. And there's a whole industry that reinforced that would with the patterna viabra like past their time than this tons of company selling

penis pill everywhere. We kind of reduce male sexuality to a heart erection, right and how long it go lasts That does not take into the account of their erotic mind and the sexual erotic context that we find so pledgeable and to Madison's porn there, you know, I do my feel I know a lot of strippers and erotic dancer and they would always say, most of the time the guys are coming in, you think they just want to see TNA And for a lot of them, they

actually want to someone to listen to them and have a girlfriend experience, having someone to care about what's going on with them. So there is this like connection nurturing sense that male sexuality doesn't get to talk about. Also, you know, to correct some other historical trauma between the sexes. I think there is a lot of a lot of straight guys and that doesn't have to be only short guys, but have find it very confusing to express their masculine

side or what turns them on. So they feel like, in order for them to be a good human, they have to be like very very gentle and soft, and they're like conflicting with their like they just don't know how to negotiate that type of sex, right, So they feel like, in order for me to fit in, I have to forego all the things that I naturally like gravitate towards in order to be a good human. And I think it's quite confusing. And I work with a

lot of men. I think like there's definitely some asshole that in the world that is sort of like, then

I'm never going to change, that's who they are. But there's so such a large population of genuinely giving human being that just happened to be in a male body that they care about their partner's pleasure, they care about their own pleasure, and they just don't know what is the right way to express it in twenty twenty three and is changing so fast and it's so confusing, And then you have this resurgeon of like old school misogyny from Andrew Tate's side of the world, right, So it's tricky,

like the swing back from the other side. So I truly feel that this also is a great opportunity for us to prepare the next generation to have a more transcendence in their sexual expression and to create more harmony between the sexes and support each other and love each other so more than just a hard dick. There is a lot of confusion, and I hope it. I hope there will be more more educational program for male and

my own sex coach, Dustin Gerrick, I did his. I did his program where I was in a room with fifty men who deal with premature ejaculation and they have this amazing coaching program that I have seen people will struggle with this whole life. Do the training, like the workouts, and then able to reach ejaculate ejaculatory choice, meaning you could choose when you want to ejaculate. So it's pretty amazing.

But what was so like, what is so heart wrenching, is to hear their story about how much they're shamed because if they believe they are a premature ejaculator, and to go back to the science because I love the signs too. If you are born in a female body and you have an excitatory system that just go straight up right and you don't have much of an inhibitory system, and you're able to reach orgasm over and over again quickly. Then you are celebrated if you're in a female body.

But if you're born with the same nervous system in a male body, you become a premature ejaculator and you come too easily and you are worthless in the bedroom. So when I see that, it is really so for those people who born with that nervous system, they have to train how to like manage that, right, But it

just it really depends. So I think a lot of men show goal which like different sexual issue or don't know why their wife don't want to a sex with them, you know, like for the last twenty years, and they have to deal with their own like rejection, Like am I not like sexually attractive to you? So I do think we need to to give attention to to males too. Yeah,

that's a very beautiful everything you just said. I think that we would be remiss if we didn't talk about penis size in this episode, since it's it's always like the elephant in the room among men, you know, can you can we get the elephant and put it right in front of us for a second, and just confront it and tell me about your own personal experience, Kenneth, because you have been so vulnerable and honest about your own journey with us. Yeah. I'm trying to find a

diagram of my book. So, so here's all the penis sized, right, good? Good one screen capture. Yeah, yeah, so just say average, what's the size of the one at the bottom? The bottom is the bottom? Twenty five percent is greater, the biggest the two percent points dot com is eight inches and above, so that's two percent of the population. Twenty three percent is in the six point two five six six and a quarter inches to eight inches. Most of the population is in the four point seven five to

six and a quarter. So I am a prow average sized penis owner at five point six inches, it's kind of smack in the middle. What's the bottom we're talking about length? The bottom one is less than four point seven five What comes to the micro I think it's in their one in their one and two and a half inch range. Yeah, so, and those are very rare, okay, So is the is the message there that it's more

like about the technique? You know, at at a certain point, men focus too much on the size that it kind of gets in their head and they're not doing the things that actually pleasure women, I mean, or men. I should say we should not just be hetero sexual oriented. Here, what are some takeaways here? I don't want to put words in your mouth mediicine, if you don't mind me talking just so passionate, I can't. And also I can't believe I was so insecure about my penis size from

most of my early adulthood. I wouldn't let people like reach from my pants because I am so scared of they actually see my penis. They were rejecting me right then and there, and my hopest dreams would be all over so so coming. And then now talking about the internet on the internet all the time about my advertised penis is mind blowing to me. But I don't take away.

I think it's empowering. I think I just want to say, yeah, I think it's really important that we have this myth that bigger is better, so we treat sex like a basketball game is better if you're taller, and that is not the case when it comes to sexual pleasure. It has to do with genital fit. So what I mean by fit is that you have and also on the book, I did not just penis size but vaginal size. So it's two things. Right, It's like a shoe to a foot.

A pleasure fit is way more important, and most of the time it fits well because based on like Bell curve distribution, mostly bore somewhere in the middle and most vaginas somewhere in the middle. So the pleasure fit percentage is very, very high. Now, that doesn't mean that there's no size cleans out there. While there are people that does not put for penetration whatsoever, they do exist. But we are so hung up on on like because we are we have so much sexual images from porn that

you only see. It's like, imagine your whole life you only watch NBA games, So your idea of height is that so you have no idea and is not necessarily more pleasurable. Right for some people, like what really gets them off is a huge genus before majority of people on the planet is really like, if you know your technique, he arouse enough, it will provide the right amount of

stimulation that will that will lead to orgasm. So if that was true, then if you think about sex toy sale, the only toy that would buys the biggest deal, though they could find right that that's not the case. Vibrator, I'll sell BUILDO any day. But we reinforce that culturally. And also there is you know, a population of women that want to read to continue that myth as saying, oh, I like a hook up the sky if the largest penis or big dick energy. So we have this cultural

reinforcement of this myth that bigger is better. Now again, some people do prefer that, but not always at not high enough to make that generalization. So I think finding the right pleasure fit that will lead you to more pleasurable or more orgasmic experience is the gold standard. So you could you could HOUSEO have a lover who who go in with a gigantic penis. They think they're like like they have the magic stick syndrome. So they think they're God's gift because of their dick, and they put

you no effort into it, and they're terrible lovers. So it really depends, you know, and and yeah, so that's my experience on my side, and I'm I'm sure Madison have a lot more to add on on their flip side. I definitely can't wait to hear what Madison has to think about penis size. But I just wanted to say real quick my own personal experience. You know, it's been I've found with women, at least maybe it's the one I'm with. The psychological aspect is what turns them on

so much. There it's like, I just feel like that's not discussed nearly as much. It's almost like the penis sizes and afterthought, you know, or like it's like it's not like the primary thing on the woman's mind. There's sort of like if there's a great psychologic connection, like this big psychological component where two people are connecting with each other in a in a like a really sexy way, you know, there isn't there psychological sexiness And that's an

interesting construct. So I just wanted to put that out there, and Madison, I'd love to hear thoughts about penis science. Of course, that's interesting that you're just speaking to what you just shared, because I'm now I'm like, I'll get to what I was going to say in a moment. Uh, this is interesting. I'm like, I'm like I can't totally relate to that. I'm like, hmm, do I have And I think that's where like the expertise corded sort of sways my own, it creates a bias because I think

I've unlearned that. I've just noticed that before I started the podcast seven years ago and went on this my own journey of sexual exploration and then my own pleasure research for the last six and a half years, Big Dicks did psychologically turn me on. In fact, when I would be with certain levers. The first thing, I'm totally in full transparency right now, I'm just telling on myself.

This is making me remember like how I used to interact, like in college, Like the first thing I would look at is their penis and have some sort of assessment about it, dependent on its size, dependence on its you know, thickness, and what I thought that I liked. And my only frame of reference was my high school boyfriend that I

lost my virginity to by the time I got into college. Right, So, and he had I would say, an average maybe the second to the one above average, Kenneth, what was that percentile? Was that? Six? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, And so I was comparing, and I think we live in a very comparative world, and psychologically we're constantly comparing right, and as a polyamorous woman that this is something that comes up. People ask me all the time, how do you not compare your

partner to other partners? And to say that I don't wouldn't be true. But I have power over that. I have power over my psychology that wants to compare and be like, oh, I like him more right now? And then I have my consciousness and grounded in my commitment what I'm committed to that keeps me married to my husband, not leaving him for the next you know better nick that I find or whatever. But pre working on myself, I did make that evaluation about my male lover. So

I'm relating to how you must have this experience. And where I'm not relating any more is because as I went on this own journey and my awareness expanded about what sex really is, I now understand and I've been in a place for several years where I understand that penis size and sex are not correlated in any way. So how's your are you? Have you changed in terms of your arousal based on a man's penisize? Has Have

you changed it? Absolutely? A hundred percent? I mean I can say, okay, my thoughts on and this is I'll go speak to. What I was going to share on my thoughts on penisize is Oh yeah, I have some of the best sex with my lovers that don't have what would be considered an larger penis. And Kenneth and I talked about this on the show and we're like, oh, only if it moves the conversation forward. And I feel like it really moves the conversation forward, Kenneth, So I'm

gonna die right. I got the privilege of having a sexual experience with mister Kenneth Play. I say privileged because this man knows what he's doing. He not only practices what he preaches, but like I can say from experience, but an endorsementorsement satisfied, I literally call my business. But this was an edge for me because I've interviewed Kenneth on our podcast three times and I have a sexuality podcast,

so sexual harassment gets a little blurry, you know. We just kind of are like and we sort of have a general rule that we won't date our guests as our best sexual harassment policy. Basically, it's to stop me from asking out all of the sexy people we interview because I will I would have, but nonetheless I was going to New York. And I want to share this inside of the context of the importance of going after our deepest desires as it relates to maximizing sexual pleasure.

When we don't go after our desires, there's a lack of fulfillment from a psychological standpoint. When we go after things that excite us, we have adrenaline, We literally like get a rush, yeah, and that in the bedroom, we

can actually edge ourselves an orgasm. Maybe you've heard this term of edging, and for anyone that's listening that doesn't know what edging is, it's the idea of literally bringing yourself as close to orgasm as possible and then pulling back, and then getting as close to orgasm impossible and pulling back and playing with that what we call that edge spot, and it can be incredibly pleasurable and allow for really

expansive states of orgasm. So, now, if we apply this physical practice of edging in our body and we make it be more of a metaphor for life when it comes to our desires, when we go after our desires, it's an edge, and when we reach an edge in

our body, we can expand the sensations within it. So when we go toward something in our life that's a desire, that's an edge and we reach it, that enlivens us and it does something to the body that there's adrenaline, there is serotonin that gets released, and it's very exhilarating, it's very exciting. And so one of our core philosophies and belief us alongside that we are responsible for our

pleasure and is nobody's responsibility but our own. We also really believe that as a practice as a lifestyle, to actively engage with your desires is instrumental to your pleasure, both in and out of the bedroom. And I would say, like this would go to somebody who for even outside the bedroom. Example, someone who isn't a job that they hate and they know it, but they stay in it because of fear limiting beliefs, et cetera. But really they

want to start a restaurant. They love cooking, They come home from work their safe haven, and they gets because they've always wanted to open a restaurant. I would say, for the well that person's well being mentally, physically, emotionally, and spiritually in this lifetime, all right, maybe they don't need to quit their job overnight. They should definitely take some actions to start that restaurant they always dreamed of.

There's something when it comes to personal fulfillment that when we suppress our truth, which is our deepest desires are our truth, there is something deeply healthy about being in that kind of relationship with one's desires and recognizing. So my whole thing is have the courage to live your truth. If you can have the courage to live your truth, you're gonna be putting yourself in a position to have

a lot more pleasurable experiences in this lifetime. Going back to my asking Kenneth out in a way that was appropriate or as appropriate and as it could be since we are two colleagues, here, I connected with my desire. My desire was to at the essence, was to at least meet Kenneth play in person. Right, I had a deeper desire to go on a date with Kenneth, but I wasn't in a place where I was feeling super

courageous about just asking him out. So as I needed to meet myself where I was at, and where I was at was and this is what we do with desire mapping technology is we look at the essence of a desire, because sometimes with desires it could be like, ah, how do I do that? It seems so big? But if we can baby step toward them, we can actually create a path that leads to it. And I think another important thing to mention inside of this is going after our desires doesn't mean we're going to get it.

It's like the nature of asking for what we want. Just because we had the courage to ask it doesn't mean we're going to get it. And there's a grace to being with a no as well. And so I didn't want to just ask him out out of you know and get the know. So I sent an email to his assistant and I just said, Hey, I'm going to be in New York. I would love to meet Kenneth if this is something that Kenneth would available for. This is my cell phone number and he's welcome to

reach out to me directly to book a time. And I was very pleased when I got that text message later that night from Kenneth in fact following up about us getting to meet in New York. And I feel like I should add to this that if I didn't reach out to him. Part of what inspired that was I was imagining being in New York and him not knowing and coming back and what that would have felt like.

And I was like, that would have felt there would have been a bit of a disappointment within myself that I didn't confront whatever the psychological perceived psychological fears were, which is really just rejection. And so I was like, no, I'm breaking through that because there's no way I'm coming back from this trip and at least not having made the effort to know that I took action toward this desire. And we ended up having a date. That's what it

ended up coming to. I don't know if you want to like add in here anything, Kenneth, but feel free to chime in if you do, and just cut me off. That'll turn me on. And so we went on this amazing date and it was for me. I called after the date. I called my business partners at Cliptok and they were just living to know. I'm sorry, we've rebranded, so I keep calling our company our old name. We are the Pleasure Positive Living and we are the Pleasure

Positive Podcast. So my partner's over there, We're living to hear about how this was, and they asked and I was like, well, I'm just glad I don't live in New York because he ruined sex for me. And that was really but no, it was so enjoyable. And part of that is, you know what an amazing opportunity for two people in our industry to get to connect. I date a lot of people who are not in my industry and don't know what kinds of conversations to have

to create really expansive sexual experiences. And so for me, I was absolutely in heaven. And just to be completely frank about it, it was the one of the best sexual experiences ever had in my entire life. And I have also had sex with penises that were larger, and they were nowhere near in the same fucking dimension as the sexual experience that I had with Kenna. So that is just a huge endorsement to say that not only does penis size not matter, but when it comes to

multiple orgasms, it's not necessary, it's not required at all. Wow, there's a topic in psycho and Psychologist, so your blessing, I'm getting all hot about it again. But yeah, there's a there's a thing called meat copying in psychology that taps in evolutionary psychology principles. And I'm sure Kenneth is going to get even more phone calls after this. But by Kenneth, let me let me ask you a question.

Do you find that this work you do puts you at risk at all of being objectified once women find out. I'm not saying that Madison objectified you, but I'm just I'm broadening out for a second. Just ask you this, Can I objectify you? Though? I'm open to that feed and no, I totally it totally turns me onto and I had the biggest crush on you. But like, we

all have this professionalism. So it was really beautiful how we talk and negotiate and we and kind of we move to ambiguity and go like, hey, like you know what kind of experienced we want? We could talk about what we desire before we even get to It wasn't like hey, let's get really drunk and then we roll

back to my place and have sex. It was you. Actually, I love the conversation like so much prior to us playing because we were both has sort of the language and the education to talk about what we both desire, what we want out of it, how we want to be treated, and how to navigate this complexity with a work relationship to a personal connection. So I really appreciate just having that level of conversation. Besides the beautiful experience

that we share. The other point that I really want to add about, like going back to a little bit about the penis size, I want to emphasize why this, Like they have to study what women prefer as far as penisize when it comes to a casual encounter versus their long term relationship. So they usually prefer penises that are slightly larger for a one time hookup. And it

has a lot I wish I could dig up. We call the study which study it was, but what was interesting is that a visual system respawn to things that we see bigger visually faster. So they did another study with like this animal just like shape the objects. So if you could put a bigger egg, they'd be more

attracted to it, like a like a fake egg. So just a way that we respond to a Burger King commercial when you know that burger is quite like processed food and disgusting, but the visual really does it for us, so it would trigger our desire hunger even though we know that doesn't taste that good or is not as good as a burger from other restaurants. So I don't think that myth is good to disappeared overnight. That's why I told people are attracted because we lay such a

visual symbol of it. But ultimately, what I've found time after time and it can't go back to online dating in twenty twenty three. We cannot. We cannot get away from those queue that causes us to be attracted to something like is it money, status and everything else? But when it comes down to actual experience, kindness and pleasure and respect means a lot more than just being tall, being rich and have a six pack, or having a

seven figure income. So yes, it could fool us in the beginning, but at the end, when we get to experience this fully, then you realize what value really is. It really comes down to connection and kindness and mutual pleasure. So I think that's why this is so complicated, because it is hard for us to make those choices right, But what's good for us, what's really actually good for us different than and sometimes what we're attracted to, wain't

that the truth? Also, what we're attracted to is not always put a good correct Yeah, and yeah, it kind of that that demean of life, as justin Lee Miller, who's been on this podcast has we have a whole a whole episode on that topic, you know, in embracing your maybe not put a good correct desires. And then consensuality is obviously so important here. And I love that chapter in your book by the way, Kenneth on consensuality.

That was great. I just want to thank you both so much for being on my podcast and for your your openness, your vulnerability, and for empowering people to as I would put it, have more sexual actualization, you know, of their of their full sexual potential. So thanks for all the great work you're both doing. Thank you, Thank

you so much. Yeah, it's been such a privilege to come on this podcast with your medisone and and Scott, like I've been in such a fan boy when I first met you, and I love your book and thank you. It's also about talent and the gift. It was like, I know, like as your earlier book, but that is such like my favorite book. So you guys are are listening to check out that first book that I related to it so much, and actually that's the book that

I want to listen to. I cry a little at the gym because I like, I so relate to those feelings, you know, and being this laxic learning disability. So I just I just love what you do and thank you for continuing to sharing it with the world. I feel the love here. Thank you. Thanks for listening to this episode of The Psychology Podcast. If you'd like to react in some way to something you heard, I encourage you to join in the discussion at Dousycology podcast dot com.

We're on our YouTube page, The Psychology Podcast. We also put up some videos of some episodes on our YouTube page as well, so you'll want to check that out. Thanks for being such a great supporter of the show, and tune in next time for more on the mind, brain, behavior, and creativity.