Gail Saltz || The Gifts of Disability

to be speaking with our guest. Gail's Salts. Gail is a clinical Associate Professor of psychiatry the New York Presbyterian Hospital, WYO Cornell Medical College, and a psychoanalyst with the New

York Psychoanalytic Institute. A frequent contributor in the media, she's a columnist, best selling author, podcast host, and television commentator, and one of the nations foremost go to experts on a variety of psychological and mental health issues, especially those between the women's emotional wellbeing relationships and the mental health aspects of current news. Her latest book is The Power of Different The Link between Disorder and Genius. Hey, Gail,

thanks so much for being on the show today. Well, Scott, thanks for inviting me because, as you know, we both love this topic and you, of course were a major expert for me in constructing my book. So I'm really delighted that I'm here. Well, that's really kind of you to say this book is, as first of allus, been doing very well. I see it's doing for so it really resonated with a lot of people. What do you

think is resonating so much? Yeah, I'm really excited about that, And I think that it's just sort of congeals and brings to light something that many people who are struggling with some sort of symptom of what I would call a brain difference. So you know, it may be a mental illness, it might be a learning difference or disability know and parents that those kids know that while their kid is struggling, that they also have sort of some

sort of unique strength. But you know, very few people have put words to that, and mostly what they find, depressingly so is that there's a lot of stigma. There's a lot of shame. Educational systems are rather immobile in terms of both supporting but also gleaning the possibility that

there is something really able about their child. So to see something I think in writing that it shows them the science and gives them the language for understanding that there's a wiring issue here that explains what's going on. I think is both relieving and maybe hopefully somewhat inspiring for people. It's probably both for sure. Yeah, you cover quite the gamut of things that I start to wonder,

who's not different in your book? Who's left? I mean, did you basically just write a book saying that, like for anyone in this world, if you have anything that you're not proud of, maybe it's a gift and that's why everyone's buying your book. Well, you know, that's a really fair question. And in fact, you know, part of my goal was actually to say that while we want to as a country say only these few people are different and so we can negate them, that couldn't be

further from the truth. That the reality is right close to fifty percent of Americans at some point in their lifetime will have or meet criteria for a mental health diagnosis. So hard to keep saying people are abnormal. If you know, we're talking to close to fifty percent by definition statistically,

you know, it's hard to say that's abnormal. So yeah, I am talking about a lot of people, and that was part of my goal because you know, as you and I have spoken about, I think the reality is that all of these things that we end up calling diagnoses are really just further out on the continuum of normal behavior. I mean, things that every that he does struggle with. Sometimes it's just that maybe it becomes so repetitive and continuous and interfering with their functioning that it

then qualifies as a diagnosis. Yeah. As you know, the people that are arguing against the DSM, the psychologists are coming up with alternative model of all these things that's more dimensional, so that we're all somewhere on these every single one of these is a continuum. And that's why I chose to actually frame the chapters in terms of

symptoms and not diagnoses. I mean, yes, I do talk about the diagnoses because as a psychiatrist is hard not to since that's the language that so many people are familiar with. But I really try to, at least early on in the book, also dispel the idea that, you know, these diagnoses are the most meaningful thing. They're really just language. They're boxes that were constructs and not they don't really reflect the symptomatology, which is what clinicians treat. I mean,

I'm a psychiatrist, but still a psychiatrist. Most of my colleagues are really treating symptoms and not quote diagnoses. I

think that is an important distinction. But the other distinction is that I use this term brain difference is because for lack of a better one, because I really want people to understand that to some degree, we all have different wirings that you know, the idea that the brain is an organ, and so we have to stop blaming people for the differences that they have as though they

could you know, it's a moral failing. But at the same time, it's an organ, very different from the heart, where there is sort of a normal construct and an abnormal construct. The brain there's such a variation in wiring, as you know, between men and women, between individuals, and it's so individual that if we don't start understanding it and looking at it that way, we really do a disservice to so many of us. Yeah, why didn't you include sex differences chapter the Power of being a Male

or the Power of being Female? Yeah, maybe that's my next book. Too controversial, maybe too controversial. It would be controversial for sure, But but you know, I mean, of course there are you know, that's not a hard and fast rule either. There are probably more variations between people within a sex than there are, you know, uniformly just between the sexes. But there are differences of course between

the sexes because hormones influence brain wiring. And I mean, maybe we should just think about everything differently as this emerging model and not have exceptions. Yeah, it's a really good point. I think we do need to think about

a whole lot of things differently. This was sort of my hopeful entree with the data that I could call, let's say, but you know, I think we are on a potential burgeoning era, let's say, in terms of imaging and different methods of imaging that hopefully will give us a lot more information about you know, the this archaic pattern of quantifying and qualifying everyone isn't really working any longer, and that we really need to create a different model

of understanding these brain differences or even variations of a person within their lifetime, because of course the brain is plastic, and you know, so changes can keep occurring. People can traditionally make change, but of course the environment is always you know, epigenetically turning off and on our genes and changing things, and we need to think of that in

our model of accounting for things as well. Yeah, so let's talk about some of these specific ones and hopefully by the end of this episode will have covered all of our listeners. That's probably so in some way. And I'm sure that, like you know, because these are dimensional, you can see a bit of yourself in every single one of these. But obviously it does exist, though we don't want to, you know, say that it isn't a

real thing either. You know that people really can't score really high in these each of these dimensions in a way that is meaningful. Yeah, it's Stiorth talking about. So let's talk about dyslexia and what are some of the

latest scientific findings surrounding that. Well, you know, I realized that I am now speaking with someone who knows science, knows science well, and will probably take umbrage with some of the you know, how hard and fast some of these things are so and something I wanted to be clear that, you know, the difficulty is mean little bits here and there from the science, but it's not hard and fast. But I think, to me, what I hope

to be the bigger takeaway points regarding dyslexia. We're one something that has been known for a long time but many people don't understand, which is there is a real and complete separation between IQ and dyslexia, and that you know, many many people with dyslexia are are extremely bright, they may have difficulty reading and processing. And also that dyslexia is does not mean one thing. It is actually again unfortunately it's our box that we have a name for.

You know, you have difficulty reading, and it has to do with wiring in some way. But people it's probably going to turn out to be many different things dyslexia. You know, people tend to think it's purely you don't see what you're reading correctly, but it really has to do more with the wiring for processing what you are seeing correctly. Again, there are variations between individuals and how

that presents. But what I think a lot of people don't know is that there is some data to support the idea that people are many people with dyslexia, probably not everybody have this wider net for visual, auditory and cognitive material that they have this wider spatial attention. And that is clearly because they are processing differently. And in fact, you know people who do their workarounds to be able to read material though they have dyslexia. You know, the

reading seems to happen in a different process. It's not that they are then doing the same thing that for instance, I do when I read, because I don't have that st ruggle. They are reading hemispherically in a different path even though they are reading. So one can create wiring, let's say, or super highway, a small pathway that is wired to enable one to do something better, and that is what people often with dyslexia do when they are

taught to be able to process their reading. But it does seem to correlate with and I am using the word correlate and not cause this wider spatial attention, this increased ability to discern patterns, and that often applies to special spatial relations strengths. So for example, I do profile certain people to try to illustrate this in the book.

I think doctor Beryl Benis Rap is a great example of a highly accomplished physician who discovered how to diagnose down syndrome in utero via ultrasound and that is because though she has actually quite substantial dyslexia that still makes reading and writing very difficult for her. She found that she could see things on X ray and ultrasound that really other people simply did not see. I mean, it would not pop out at them in the way that

it popped out for her. She didn't even realize that that was something you know, sort of special or particular strength that she had until in attending pointed out, you know, you see this, You to point this out to me, for me to be able to see this, and to her she described it to me as sort of almost magically, you know, almost like they were floating in front of you know, they stood out in this kind of almost dimensional way for her, and that is something that you know,

many people with dyslexia do report. Yeah, I think the million dollar question is to what extent is that statistically probabilistically likely if you have dyslexua that you're going to then have that or is it just at a chance that there are people with dyslexia who also have that talent, So like talent might be an independent variable that just happens to co occur with dyslexia amongst certain people, or is that something that dyslexia really makes it more likely

that you'll develop I don't know if we have the one hundred percent the answer that question. Yet I think that's fair because, as I said, you know, the data the studies I reported on are really their correlation studies, you know, and so there's no you know, that makes it difficult to say it's cause and effect. That's that's the difficulty. I think in all of the neuroscience research, it's been very difficult to say cause and effect as

opposed to correlation. But you know, there does seem to be let's say, an uptick in correlation enough that it certainly would make one suspect that this is the case. Yeah, and regardless, it still points to that the fact that having a learning difference I love the phrase learning difference so much over learning disability. Yeah, that having learning different doesn't preclude you from having these talents. Absolutely absolutely not.

And in fact, you know, really what I try to, let's say, advise toward the end of the book is ways that parents, you know, if their child is presenting with dyslexia, can help their child and then hopefully also help their child's educator to discover, you know, what potential strengths that child has and play to those strengths or you know, allow room for that totally. And I'm totally

on board with that. You've heard of the phrase twice exceptional, yes, and it's I just wrapped up a book on twice exceptional, supporting the twice Exceptional Children, which it's an editive volume, so there's like a scientist in there and representing their own views and stuff. And there's some debate about, you know, the extent to which is every child with dyslexia twice exceptional,

you know, would be an interesting question. You know, probably not one thing I end up talking about, and I'd be curious to know your thought on this regarding dyslexia

and twice exceptional. But you know, I talk about the U shaped curve theory of this, which is, you know, if you have sort of a milder to a more moderate version of whatever the difference is, and you incorporate I think, you know, whatever workarounds needed so that it's not extreme enough to hold you back, you have this higher likelihood of being able to utilize certainly and possibly also have the strength that goes along with the issue. So you know, as I said, you know, IQ might

be separate from dyslexia. But that doesn't mean everybody with dyslexia has a high IQ, right, just means dyslexia doesn't mean that you can't have a high IQ and so, and in fact, dyslexia doesn't mean you have a higher chance of having a lower IQ. They're just separate. And so certainly, if you really struggling other arenas, let's say, and you also have dyslexia, you know that might I'm not sure what to say about the strengths that might

make it difficult to manifest one's potential totally. And I realized for my listeners they probably don't even know what the phrase twice exceptional means. I should say that it's usually described as having an extraordinary ability coupled with disability of some sort, and it could include any of the disabilities, not just learning differences, but you know, mood disorders or

you know, autism. So did you find and did you find that it was more likely to be the people who have sort of a more moderate or less severe case of whatever the situation is, or not necessarily in dislex in particular, sure or others. Well, that's you know, that's a great question. I don't think that these chapters really differentiate between the most severe versions versus the less severe versions. That's actually really interesting to actually look at.

That would be a good line of research to look at kind of that upper end and see vice versa. It'd be really interesting. There's not a lot of studies looking at the extreme upper end of IQ and picking out that because there's just not enough of them, you know,

to study. But that would be really interesting too, because there's been some anecdotal reports that like Gifted Development Center and stuff that at that extremely high level, then you start to find some cocomitant at least social isolation and other things that might be considered disabilities of some sort. But I don't know if that's automatically the case, and I just think there should be more research on that

topic for sure. Yeah. Yeah, So let's go to my favorite one because I identify with it quite well, and that's a distractability. Yes, So I wanted to call it obviously distractability because I think most people do understand that we're often on some continuum and in life, and depending on what's going on, we can really fluctuate, but obviously I was mostly addressing you know, when distractability becomes such a you know, constant and ongoing issue that you know,

it creates problems for children in school. This is the most common diagnosis for school age children actually, And you know, again dispelling the myth that it's that you just can't

concentrate or pay attention, which is not the case. That it's this collection, that the wiring has to do with what's called the default system, and that it has to do with almost what you might think of as sort of a faulty switch or one's ability to regulate when one wants to pay attention more than you can't pay attention.

And because of that, and because things that are very appealing and interesting, super interesting to the person who struggles with this, and when you're super interested in something and excited about it, you know, you tend to release more of the neurotransmitter dopamine, the neurotransmitter reward and bathing one's brain or parts of one's brain, and dopamine creates the desire to stay in it and do it more, as

it were, It's like a positive feedback. People with issues with attention tend to hyper focus on things that they're

really interested in. So, you know, while obviously I advocate for treatment, particularly in terms of coping skills, one can implement if this is particularly difficult in terms of distractability but also impulsiveness, but more so organization, which is often an issue for this group in terms of, oh, difficulty with executive function instead, or give you some anecdotal reports there couldn't we all but yes, So on the one hand, that's difficult and you do want to attend to that.

But on the other hand, it is striking how many CEOs or people who are in sort of leadership and creative leadership positions I'm talking to you, Scott Barry Kalfman, you know, are exceptionally original and creative in thought, and that probably has to do with the same wiring that the time one is distractable is also the time one day dreams and thinks a lot of thoughts. And to quote somebody very smart, got ary Catherine, are you quoting me?

That's never happened on the psychology podcast before. It is that combination of having a messy brain and a non messy brain back and forth that allows for high creativity and originality so the messiness allowing for all these thoughts to be going on, but then you know, coming back to a grounded place where you can implement the thoughts.

So people with attentional issues often are you know, very creative, original, high energy, lots of output, disinhibited thought and the ability to spot connections and analogies in those thoughts that are really make them particularly able. Yeah, well said being because you quoted me. So there's a lot of of comorbidity among a lot of these is among some of these things on your list, And in terms of like which

want to talk about next? I actually want to talk about what are some similarities between ADHD and bipolar, particularly the manic state. Are there similarities between that the hypomanic state? You could be in an ADHD kind of state, well, in the sense that symptomatically, the rush of ideas, the time spent making you know, having ideas that are maybe sort of not fully in your consciousness but not unconscious, and the diversity of thought, the potential for unusual juxtaposition

of different ideas are actually I think similarities. I mean, in hypomania we call it flight of ideas, many ideas and seeing those and they have some connection. They may seem pretty remote to the person listening to those flight of ideas, but they are associations from one to the next. And people with ADD they have similar kinds of thoughts going on. They may not feel as rushed or as speedy, and they don't have some of the other things that are going on with hypomania, and also that sort of

restlessness of thinking. I guess you could also describe it as something that happens for people in hypomania. And I think often people with ADD particularly if they have ADHD, which is hyperactivity involved, and that may actually sort of charge them in terms of getting stuff done. Let's say, you know, I guess I would describe those as the similarities, but certainly in hypomania. I think the data is even more compelling that people in hypomanic states are often highly creative,

do much of their most creative work. And also, unlike add volume of work that is really an ability in hypomania, would that people could just stay in a hypomanic a low hypomanic state. Unfortunately that is never the case. Well, I alread drink enough coffee every day, see how I love my coffee. Don't get me wrong, I love my coffee and it does help me think I was going

to say that does he get you there? But I don't think that it makes me as creative as the ernest hemingways and the you know, Kay Jamison has written on this extensively, and I think her numbers are really compelling.

Of the number of artists and writers, and particularly people in the arts, but some people in sciences as well that really do during hypomania have this experience of not only you know, highly creative, rapid thought, but also and there is some there was a recent study think about six months ago and the American Journal of Psychiatry about first degree relatives who don't have the bipolar disorder but seem to be conferred some of the same you know,

heightened linguistic ability and personability, social ability that brings people to them in a way and adds to their let's say, quote successfulness in life, including a diversity of thought. But it's probably even more present in those with hypomania during that brief time that they're in hypomania. Are people when they're in hypomania in general, are there thoughts and creative ideas not just quantity, but it is a quality better I mean, how do you like match that? What do

you match that to? You don't want to compare it to when they're depressed, because that's not a fair comparison, But what do you want to compare it to in others? Well, that's a really good question. So, I mean, most of the work that I've seen seems to be saying that it's somewhat both, but the fact that the quality is good may not be more than somebody else who's you know,

right and creative. Because, by the way, I don't mean to be implying in any way that people who don't have any of these issues can't be creative all that they exactly can. They certainly can. It's just that they just don't seem to be so at quite the number that people with mild to moderate let's say, bipolar disorder are. But it may be because there's such a high quantity that once you you know, have such a large number, you're going to statistically have a greater number of really

good ones, you know, equalads, equalads role. Yes, yeah, that's a fair point. Yeah, this stuff gets tricky, Like I mean, like if I had to pick like one mental disability, which one would you pick? Like, what has anyone compared like every single thing on your list to each other, to like say which is the winner? Which is the winner? Nobody has done that, Scott, what a highly creative thought. Nobody has done that. You know. Unfortunately most of us

don't get to pick. I would definitely place myself in the anxiety pool, you know, and I don't know if I would pick that one. It certainly has made me a pretty driven, vigilant person. You said, unfortunately, we don't get to pick. It's interesting to use the word unfortunately as opposed the word fortunately, considering we're talking about a lot of the positives that come with But I think I'm glad you said unfortunately, because we don't want to

trivialize mental illness. And I think like you are careful too to make it clear that we still need to address suffering. Right, there's no question, there's no question. I mean, I really try to be as really upfront and demonstrative as possible in this book that at every juncture I am recommending treatment. I mean, and treatment is not going to rob you of the strength that you have. It's

going to make you more able to utilize it. That's really where I'm coming from, so I really think that for the most part, people who present with difficulty are derailed from, you know, their normal developmental path if they're a kid, and as an adult, they're derailed from you know, the happiness or comfort that they could be having in

their current lives. And it does cause suffering. And I do really hope that people will seek treatment because there are often treatments that are useful for absolutely it doesn't diminish you know. I don't know if you've ever spoken

with Nasir Graimy. He's sort of an expert in bipolar disorder up a toughs and you know, he sees many many very you know, creative students people in the Boston area, which there's you know, there are a lot of academics you know, pulled to that area who are very concerned about taking medication because of diminishing their creativity, because they

know this is part of the package for them. And he's very clear that if you with a lighter hand, as he would say, you know, he really tightrates carefully to keep you in the sweet spot of because if you become manic, if you become depressed, it really does diminish your output. Not to mention making you very unhappy

and also probably disrupting your social relationships, et cetera. When he has looked at outcome by keeping people perhaps not at the you know, one hundred percent of creative potential, but more like ninety five, but keeping them even so that they can take those that ninety five percent and do something with it, he really has found people to

be able to have more creative output. And obviously, at the end of the day, while it's lovely to be creative in your mind, you know, you do want to do something with it, Yeah, for sure, and a lot of like you mentioned earlier, a lot of this Storasar suggests that it's actually the relatives of people with the diagnosis that are most creative. Yeah, not the people, not

the people with the diagnosis themselves. And I realized this is not a fair science leap to make, but it does seem to imply that if you do get treatment and you can be kept you know, more euthymic, you would still have those conferred abilities, but you would, like you're like the said who are unaffected, you might have more of an ability to use it. And the thing I also, you know, really hoped to get across is that many people simply don't seek treatment because of stigma,

you know, and it's not always conscious. It's not that they're saying to themselves, I have this, but I'm too ashamed, so I'm not going to seek treatment. They can't even let themselves know that they're struggling with something like this because it just feels too awful. Parents can't see that their child is struggling with something that would benefit from treatment because it feels like some sort of death sentence to imagine that this is what their child is struggling with.

And so I really hoped that we all frame this in a different light so that not so that people won't get treatment, but that more people will get treatment because they will understand that this is you know, we all have different wiring, and it's attending to our wiring, which means both you know, seeking treatment for things that make you suffer, and playing to the strengths whatever they may be, which may actually be very particular and sometimes exceptional,

as you're going to, I guess further elucidate when you are struggling with one of these things. Yeah, do you think that treatment can make you lose that creative juice. Well,

I think that many people fear that they do. I think that for the most part, I would say the answer in everything that I've looked at is mostly no, but not one hundred percent no. So you know, might it take the edge off you know, your creativity for instance, in you know, in those few days you are super hypomnic but not manic, but not coming back down again.

It might yes, But in terms of creative output, I would say no, because you know you have to then look at a trajectory and you know the ability to use your heightened creativity, and in that sense, I would say it benefits you to see treatment. I think most people are in not concerned about this with issues like anxiety, because certainly being topped out in anxiety is you know, definitely going to undermine work output, no question about it. And I think that the things that can work for

you would work for you. But at the same time, I'll say this, see plenty of families where the child is like an all a student, but terrible anxiety comes in gets treatment. Now if you be start showing up, kid is much happier, kid is in many ways functioning much better. But yeah, they get a be or two, because they're not as anxious that they must have all a's and the parents are like, what's going on? What did you do to my child? Like what you know?

This is terrible and so you know, it depends what your measure is. I guess that's what I would say, Scott. It depends what your measure is. I think for the long haul, that child is much better off not being on the far end of that U shaped curve and being able to utilize what they've got and not get burned out. But you know, you might see things that are objective measures in the short term look a little different. That's a great point, Like, what's the life goal? Right?

If your life goal is to be straight a's right, I mean, if it's to be straight a's no matter what, and then maybe you have like a complete you know, I can't do this anymore, burnout, meltdown, whatever, versus if your life goal is to be you know, overall a happy person with your ups and downs, overall creative person, overall find successes. I think you know pretty much in

every one of these categories, treatment is an asset. So, yeah, you talked about anxiety a little bit, Well, what about depression, yeah, So it's interesting with depression. I would say in the depths of depression, like again in the worst of the U shaped curve, there isn't much conferred. I think, you know, thinking slows down, and I think it's an output slows down, and that is that is obviously, you know, not a benefit.

But it seems to be that people who have milder to more moderate depression and or post depression or in between, you know, they have recurrent depression or disimia or recurrent depression in between those episodes, there does seem to be some data that supports that they have. Well, first of all, people with depression do not necessarily, if they're not in the darkest part, see things in a negative way, more

negative than reality. They may just see things more realistically than the people who are not having depression, who tend to have a more rose colored view, And so there can be benefits to that realism, there can be insights to that realism. And certainly there does seem to be a lot of reporting of heightened empathy, probably from having struggled and suffered and seen and experienced things that you know, others may not have to be able to tap into

others suffering in a certain kind of way. I had this conversation with you know, author Andrew Solomon, who really feels that, you know, without having had and you know, he wrote the Tone on Depression by Noonday Demon but

without having experienced depression. He really feels his writing and his ability to connect with others and empathize truly stand in their shoes, truly truly understand suffering at a certain level and be able to communicate that in the written word would not be what it is without having struggled and suffered with depression in the way that he has. I think it's a good point, and he's probably right. He's probably right. There's a research stay that came out

showing that people who are optimistic all the time. I don't know anyone who's optimistic all the time, but who's optimistic more than the average tend to not be as empathetic when someone has a negative mood, but they're empathetic

when someone's positive. But yeah, no, he I mean, you hear that all the time in terms of and people being around people that are depressed really who have never experienced it are like I got to get out of Harry Katy even you know, like I can't listen to this because I don't want to be pulled in, But there are even strategically, there are potential benefits. I did

this psycho biography on Abraham Lincoln. His you know, of course, from all his writings, it seems that he clearly experienced recurrent what at the time would have been called melancholy, but recurrent depressions, and his ability to realistically see the political landscape that was leading toward Civil war, his choice in terms of slavery as the cause that was in some ways so important to him, and you know, early life experiences that really were you know, demonstrative of his

empathy for all living creatures actually animals, but all humans, and certainly his feelings about slavery, but also his realism about the war and his ability to bring in groups of people or individuals to make strategic plans had a lot to do with his being, you know, always at the top of the list in terms of greatest presidents ever. And actually it's interesting when you look at presidents, you know, how high the numbers are in terms of past presidents

who seem to have had a mental health diagnosis. That is a really good point. It's such fascinating to think that there's a real causality there. I mean, I realize again, you know, we're talking correlations. But I think it's really important for people to understand, you know, I see so many of these parents are like they're just completely like

it's over that their child got a diagnosis. You know, it's over for them, and you know, the idea that this doesn't mean their child can't grow up to be whatever, great scientist, a great artist, a great musician, a president of the United States. You know. I think it's important

that people do understand that. I think it will help them to get treatment themselves, to get treatment for their child, but maybe even more so to look for and expose themselves to the things that may really be their strengths and will give them self esteem. Yeah, and utilize that. Yeah, I agree. I think it's a good point. I want to I want to go back to anxiety for a second, because I didn't hear anything positive about anxiety when you

mentioned it before. Good point. Well, of course, I think many people have heard of the term performance anxiety, meaning that there is a conferred advantage to being a certain amount of anxious. It's not over the top anxious. You know, it is having some anxiety, and there's lots of data about having enough anxiety which makes you perform better in a sporting event and better in a test taking situation,

better on standardized tests. But again not over the top anxiety, which obviously you know, there's a window essentially, and so I am sort of talking about that window that people who tend toward anxiety are often rate high in alertness,

in diligence, attention to detail. Obviously this can be you know, spillover into perfectionism and perfectionism can you know, undo people at the highest levels, but a certain amount of perfectionism makes them potentially what a great scientist, you know, really like this has to be spot on. I am detail oriented. I am you know, always striving for the best. And so this hyper vigilance, which by the way, not only can be there for work, but can be there emotionally.

Now again, you know, I can end up treating people with high anxiety who are so emotionally vigilant that they interpret any negativity in someone they're relating to as you know, something terrible is going on. That's when you need some help. But for anxious people often they have an emotional vigilance, which and sensitivity that makes them not only empathic, but able to read a situation that is coming down the pipe, you know, and even sometimes intervene before things have gone further.

Let's say so in important you know, relationships, or social things or work things, they're often the ones to spot something emotionally in the air on someone's face. They're scanning, and they're able to move in and analyze, react, do something about what's going on. That actually is helpful. In the ones, they can often better predict outcomes. That's what I would say. And that could be true in work,

and that could be true emotionally. Someone who's suffered from some generalized anxiety disorder, I'd be really happy without it. That would take that sacrifice. Yes, And so you asked me about my negativity, I really you know, I mean terrible anxiety is or terrible, any of these things is terrible. And many people would decide, hey, I would not have this,

to not have the strength associated with it. Although Scott I did ask every single person fifty people that I interviewed for this book if they would give up their issue, their struggle. But you know, whatever that might mean for them. Overall, all of them said no. All of them said no except one person, Alan Sachs, who suffers with pretty severe schizophrenia. You know, she is a psychology and law professor at UCLA, and she you know, is extremely accomplished, but you know,

has really suffered. It has you know, clearly derailed, particularly in the later years, her ability to continue to you know, publish and work because it's start to have a cognitive effect. So she she is like, no, you don't want No one wants to have schizophrenia, no matter what gifts are conferred. And I think that's a fair statement. But otherwise everybody was like, you know, no, this really is part and parcel of who I am, and I see it as part of the strength that allowed me to do what

I do for anxiety. You know, David Sedaris is like, I would not change the OCD and the general anxiety that I've really struggled with. And clearly he has really struggled because you know, clearly he has utilized this and it is his art form. Yeah, so you know, I hear you. I you know, when anxiety is worse for me,

I really question the advantages. But I would also have to say, I am aware that you know, I personally am very driven and some of these things do apply for me, and they probably have helped me in many ways, you know, do the work that I want to do. Yeah, I think that's fair. Are you of data which seems to imply the high intelligence has coevolved with worry? Oh?

What a great question. I'm not I see no correlation between Well, it depends how you define intelligence, but in any definition of intelligence I've seen, I don't see a correlation with anxiety. But even in the you know, the traditional metric of IQ, there's no correlation with neuroticism, which is the main personality dimension for anxiety. So they do seem to really independent dimensions. For sure. There's a great resource.

And my colleague James Kaufman, who I know you interviewed for the book Edited on Creativity and Mental Illness, which is kind of the most up to date resource on the link toing creativity mental illness from the researcher's perspectives. And I definitely recommend people to buy your book as well as his book, you know, alongside each other. I think that they're both great resources and really valuable. James, you know, has found that among female poets, they're very,

very higher rates of pression and suicide. And that research was a bit controversial when it first came out. I wonder if people are more accepting of it now, of the real realities of the data and how certain professions because you don't go into professions as much as you do about the difference. Yes, but that's true. So he re applies the data in terms of high rates of depression and suicide in successful female poets. Yeah, mm hmm. That's second ate. So you might see some of these.

For each one of these, you might see attraction to certain fields like dyslexia. You may see you see entrepreneurship. You see a lot of people dyslexia, and a lot of non verbal to means, and it's going down the list. You might see certain you know fields linkages there. I think that's an important finding as well. We need to

talk about autism. But absolutely absolutely autism. Yeah, so you know similar you know obviously again the EBU shaper severe autism or you know where you're perhaps you know, non verbal or minimally verbal, or have very low IQ. Obviously, you know, I'm really not addressing that group because it does, I think obviously cause such impairment that it's hard to

manifest or look at particular strengths. But it is clear that for people who are more high functioning on the autism spectrum that there the ability to what's called you know, hypersystemization. The ability to classify objects essentially is really increased, and the ability to analyze or construct systems or patterns is increased.

And you know, on the one hand, I think, you know, we see that as a symptom, you know, in children who are you know, not socializing, but are you know, building elaborate block structures or train lineups or you know, and it can be hard to get them off of that.

But actually that is something that may be an exceptional strength and may be able to be utilized, you know, in important issues that we think about for the future of people with autism, you know, how can they work and be independent and find satisfaction and the ability to perhaps do jobs that maybe you know, you and I would be pretty lousy at actually, which is something that might be repetitive and very about the ability to spot patterns and construct systems. They may be really excellent at

that and really be able to do that. So I think that this greater attention to detail can be a strength and what can be a symptom for severation, you know, doing something over and over again. That comfort in repetition can be something that actually can be an asset in

very particular areas. Oh yeah, Matt Lerner is doing this cool research showing that you get people with autism involved in like drama or improv, in particular comedy improv, that they can actually be really funny because yeah, the way they see the world, Yeah, the way they see the world. Well. Actually, so one of the people I profiled for the book,

actually Matt Savage. Who is this you know, I guess you'd have to say savant composer, jazz composer, but you know, I mean definitely has you know, is substantial you know, autism and his ability to seize patterns in music and music competition and his enjoyment into some degree in the repetition has made him really an incredible composer. And he's played with the Boston Symphony. He's you know, he composes and has put out CDs at an extraordinarily young age.

I certainly don't want to imply that everybody is a savant who has autism or kenvy, and in fact, I'm not even I'm definitely not talking about only savants for sure, but there does seem to be this potential. And I've profiled another artist who paints and she's had no art background. Her paintings are incredible, but she doesn't paint them the

way and artist might paint them as a whole. She for her, it is about these little patterns and dots that she uses that ultimately create this beautiful canvas and scene. But it is about pattern recognition. And she's also done very well as a day trader because she can see certain patterns and stock trading that she's been very successful with.

So it's really interesting. It's really important because of course, I think there is tremendous stigma around autism spectrum issues, and we do have to think as a society much differently about the future. And because you know, the numbers have grown tremendously, I'm sure as you know of people

with this diagnosis, and we're not sure why. Obviously there's somewhat better diagnosis, but that really doesn't explain the increasing numbers, and that means that there will be you know, numerous adults with you know, on the spectrum, and it's important, I think, even from a societal point of view, to

think about employability. Yeah, that's a really good point. And with all this automated jobs and things, we really need to really tap the natural resources we have in ways that are although you know, people don't want to be used, you know, for societal reasons. But of course, of course, but I'm really I just don't see this that way.

I think this is an you know, the question is how do you match people who want to be productive and feel productive and just like everybody wants to, you know, have a job that feels right for them, that they feel good and they feel capable in and allows them to be independent, yeah, self actualized. Let's end with diversion thinking.

What does it mean to be a diversion thinker? Well, divirgin thinking is basically, you know, unusual thoughts that are related to everything, really unusual thoughts, not the typical, and it could be related to problem solving, which can be an advantage, but it can be it can be anything, would you I mean divergent thought that's something that you've

written about in the literature. We define it technically as like the ability to generate multiple possibilities or multiple solutions to a problem, because and just contrast from convergent thinking, which is like you're ability to converge on a single correct answer. But I kind of dig your definition of it. It's more applicable to like anything. Yeah, I mean, like you're basically saying, you're basically saying it's if you're weird.

I kind of dig that. There's a way I kind of dig that though, to be honest, well, I guess it's not as scientific. But you know, if you have multiple solutions, some of them are going to be unusual. Yeah, oh for sure. For sure. How does that contrast from like the word salad you get with people with schizophrenia?

Though you know that, right, So that's probably not useful divergent thinking again to the U shaped curve idea that you know, if you are being psychotic in such a way that it affects your ability to think in words,

not just so. I mentioned Ellen Sachs earlier. She has circumscribed hallucinations that she now is able to recognize they are hallucinatory material, and she is able to sort of circumscribe it and say, Okay, I'm just not responding to that, and I will leave that over there, not that it goes away unfortunately for her, but it doesn't affect her overall.

You know all of her thoughts. If you are schizotipal, I mean, you know and basically you have a lot of unusual thoughts, or you know, as you mentioned, you know many more thoughts potentially for something than somebody else.

It could be an advantage for you. But if you are actively psychotic and having word salad meaning words are going together that actually don't really go together, or maybe they have the loosest of associations, and you are therefore not able to regulate the difference between messy brain and non messy rain, and you've got only MESSI you can't produce something with those thoughts, you can't use them. So I think divergent thinking. You know, some of the most

creative people are definitely divergent thinkers. I mean they come up with many solutions to and unusual solutions to problems, and that is what makes them so creative. I think, I don't know, would you view that, I would say that's often at the essence of their creativity. Yeah, I definitely agree with that, And I think it's important to just like a stream diversion, thinking and IQ, they're correlated

by the same thing. And just because you might be really good learner doesn't mean you're going to be really good at creating things super important. I'm so glad you said that's super important. Yeah, well, you know, you and I agree that to some degree. I think on the idea that IQ testing is is not a great system or testing set up at the moment for defining people's intelligence. And you know, obviously intelligence is going to need to take on a broader definition than it does for most

people today. But yes, you know, there are many people who will not do well on an IQ test per se, but who will be highly creative and highly successful, and we in the late public might even think they're brilliant, but they might not have a very high IQ. Yeah, and that's okay. Wow. So this is a really wide ranging interview and thanks for your time. Is there some sort of final wrap up message or something that you

really want people to take away from this? I guess my main takeaways would be that, you know, I hope if you know, on a collective basis, that we could digest differences differently so that you know, we can stop shaming and stigmatizing people. That takes someone who's already suffering and makes them suffer that much more. I hope that people can individually look for themselves or look for their child.

And as you pointed out, you know, so there's so much comorbidity in these things that you know, there may be more than one area where they're struggling going on, and not only seek treatment and help them with workarounds for the issues that they're struggling with, but also whether that's through neurosyite testing or or through exposing them to many things or to you know, exposing them to things

that might meet certain sweet spots that are emerging. Look for the potential strength that your child has or you have, and in the case of a child, you know, reach out to educators to talk about ways that they can, for example, you know, do that upcoming project in a way that meets their particular strengths. You know, they're more

of a visual learner, they're more an auditory learner. You know, they have real spatial relations ability, but not you know, how can you help design at least some projects that plays to your child's strengths to help them develop them and feel good about that, and more importantly, learn, really learn, as opposed to keeping them boxed in in jumping through the same hoop of an area that really is going to be a relative weakness sounds like a really important message,

especially right now. Thank you so much, Riale for challenging me today. Thanks so much for having me Scott. Thanks for listening to The Psychology Podcast with Doctor Scott Barak Kaufman. I hope you found this episode just as thought for booking and interesting as I did. If you'd like to read the show notes for this episode or hear past episodes, you can visit the Psychology Podcast dot com.