Dan Pink || Normalize Regret

a Whole New Mind, and To Sell as Human. Dan's books have won multiple awards, have been translated into forty two languages, and sold millions of copies around the world. His articles and essays have also appeared in The New York Times, Hard Business Review, of The Atlantic, Slate, and other publications. His most recent book, which is the topic of our conversation today, is called The Power of Regrets.

How Looking Backward Moves Us Forward. I really liked this episode because I never really thought about regret as something you could have and harness in your life today to help it reflect on how you want to live tomorrow. You know, we often hear a lot about deathbed regrets, and you know, what do you regret when you're on that one moment, the last moment, the last breath, and you'll be like, oh, and their whole life flashes before

your eyes. But why wait? Why wait? Until then? Dan shows through a lot of quantitative as well as qualitative research that he conducted, that regret can be very powerful. It can lead us to have a much happier life, It can have a more meaning, and it allows to overcome traumas and change our personalities in really powerful ways.

I'd say, like most importantly, a big takeaway I took with Dan is that regret also allows us to realize there's a great common humanity that we have with other people, and other humans are fellow humans, so many of us seem to have similar regrets, and I think that's really telling us something really deep and profound about human nature. So I really enjoyed this episode. I hope you do too. So without further ado that i'd bring you, Dan Pink

really didn't enjoy read speed reading your book? Nice? Yeah, it was really It was really flowed really well and met me think a lot about my own life and some of my biggest regrets and encourage me to reach out to some people. What inspired you to write this book? What inspired me to write? You know? It was really like you, I had my own I had regrets and I was trying to make sense to them. I was also at a point in my life that was kind

of weird. I'm, I think, a different point of my life than you are in that, you know, I got to this point of my life where I suddenly had mileage on me, which is kind of a shock. You know. I look back and it's like, wait a second. I've been you know, for instance, like doing what I'm doing now, I've been writing BUTK for twenty years. I'm like, holy shit,

what how did that happen? But I also have plenty of room to look ahead, and so I think inevitably when people look back, they think about what did I do wrong? What didn't I do? And so you know, you're you're a scientist. You know that all research is me search, So that's what this was. Yeah, but what's kind of cool is you know you'd cover so many broad range of topics, so you kind of go from me search topic to me search topic. I mean, you don't and the same. I mean, so you've probably learned

a lot about yourself over the past twenty years. What are some of the biggest things that you've learned about yourself through through writing? Through the process of writing and researching books. I'm not that special. That my experience as a human being on this planet is pretty consistent with the experience of other human beings on this planet. That what I hope for myself and aspire for the people I love is very similar to what other people hope

for themselves and aspire to the people they love. That were part of a I mean, I don't want to get woo woo on you, but we're that we're part of a kind of a shared human condition and that you know, at a certain level, we are profoundly, deeply alike. Well, first of all, I'm no stranger to woo woo, So that's okay. At the science I say, there's you know, I say, there is often wisdom in the wu wu. Yeah. No,

I really like what you just said. From as a humanistic psychologist, of course, that's my that's my jam, and I thought that came through very clearly in your findings. Now, you did two major studies that we did, a qualitative and a quantitative study exactly the one that you put out your own call. We even had like seventeen thousand participant, which is a great number for science. It seemed like

one of the quality that's the qualitative one. Qualitative one. Yeah, yeah, which I mean it's still seventy thousand still is incredible for and at this point it's still it's still up Scott. We're over twenty thousand, now twenty thousd we have We've collect the twenty thousand regrets from people in one hundred and nine countries. Wow, what was the most surprising regret

you saw? I think at a at a micro level, all right, the most surprised What surprised me was the volume of regrets about bullying at a very micro level, in terms of the specific, granular, individuated regret. We probably had hundreds of regrets where people regretted bullying people when they were younger. I think that's the biggest micro surprise.

I think the biggest macro surprise was, again going back to what I said earlier, was the universality of these regrets to the point where if I had shown you the QUALTC database and blocked, you know, block the fields for gender which I asked, age, which I asked, location which I asked, and just showed you the regret itself, I think you might have a hard time predicting is this somebody from North America or elsewhere? Is this person twenty five? Or is this person forty five? Or is

this person sixty five? Is this a man? Is as a woman? I think you'd have a hard time determining that. Yeah, As an individual differences researcher, I was curious if you what other kind of variables you look because those are some superficial demographic variables. Well though I guess the age is not that superficial. It matters quite profoundly. But you know things like did you look at political orientation? Did you look at a personality? Big five? You know, the

good questions. This is where we can dip our toes into the wheeze just a little bit. So on the qualitative one. Remember the qualitative one is a giant collection tool. It's not a random sample, and so I can't make any valid claims about demographic differences based on that, even though I have a ginormous sample, right I can make I can say I have my own interpretations of what these or at least of what the first fifteen thousand

regrets that I read. I can have my own interpretations of what those as a qualitative research or of what those fifteen thousand regrets say. But I can't make any definitive claims about differences on these other dimensions right now. In the quantitative one that I did, which was a which is only of the United States, but was a very good sample, we had, we over We did a massive sample there. We had four four hundred and eighty

nine participants. We over sampled so that we could have enough people from in various demographic categories so we could wait the sample and see whether there were differences. Now here, I can make some safe claims in the American sample, and both on the demographic stuff and on some of these other things. So with that as a prelude, let me tell you what some of the things that I found. Age matters. You're totally right. What we saw in the

quantitative stuff is that age. There weren't that many demographic differences, but age was the big one. And in particular, what we saw was that when people are young, they have roughly equal numbers of regrets of action and inaction. Okay, so regrets about what we did what I did, and regrets about what I didn't do. But as we age, the inaction regrets takeover. It's like two to one in action over action by the time we get to our forties. So that was a I think that was the biggest,

biggest demographic differences. The other demographic differences were relatively modest. They really were the differences between men and women. There were some differences, and that men had more career regrets, women had more family regrets, but not by a huge margin.

There were I want to get to the other the non demographic stuff here in a moment, in terms of race, very few African Americans had more education regrets than than than than white Americans did by you know, significant statistically significant margin, but not anything breathtaking. I think that's probably I think we can interpret that as perhaps supported opportunity

more than anything else. I think one interesting one when we look at education level was that people with higher levels of formal education that is, college degrees and advanced degrees ended up having more career regrets than people with lower levels of formal education. Yeah, it's interesting. It's almost like the bronze medalist is happier than the silver medallist kind of well a little bit, but a little bit, but but I think that's part of what it is. I think what it is is that I see I

had to see. I looked at your face. You know, your your millions of listeners don't know, but I can see you here. And when I told you that you had a surprise look on your face, I did, right. I read enough Paul Ackman that I can identify surprise

as an emotion on another human being space. All right, So so you were surprised by that, as was I. But then it made sense, and for the sort of the reasons that you're suggesting, which is that if you have more education, formal education, you have more career opportunities and therefore more foregone career opportunities, so you can have I think that's I think that's the safest explanation there.

So again, not many demographic difference, So forgive me now, I'm going to come back to the other thing here, which is some of these other differences on beliefs. Okay, so let's take the Big Five. I didn't assess people on the Big five. I did have on one other Big five, I did have them self identify as introverts or extroverts. Perilous, I know, but take that for what it is, all right, So I kind of dig I kind of self identification. We're just gonna try it. We're

just going to try it. So all right, So, so you consider yourself more of an introvert or more of an extrovert, all right, and so and and and I looked at that zero correlation with anything none, zero zilch. Unbelievable to me. All right, even with like bullying. Well, I didn't go into the level of I mean, I didn't get into I didn't get into the level of whether people still cool it or not. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but in terms of like the domains, like are introverts

more likely to have romance regrets? No? Are introverts more likely to have education of No, It's like there's no zero zilch. Frustrating. Now, that in itself is an interesting finding. I know you're on a roll, but I just wanted to pause you for one, because that's sometimes in science, you know, like you can it's important to publish not null findings. And to me, that's an interesting null finding. Yeah, yeah, you you know, even within so within the world domean

as well, you didn't find any differences. It's just over I mean, no, I did. How about boldness regrets? Well, here's the thing though you might be onto something there because in the quantitative thing, what I what I what I did is I ask people to it lists the regret and then put it into a into the true traditional categories of domains career, family, romance, da da da dah. All right. It was only when I do the qualitative that I said, crap, these existing categories don't capture everything.

Once you actually read through fifteen thousand of these, you realize that those those traditional categories aren't the full story, that there's another story going on here. So I wasn't able to look at I could go back, and I could I could do another piece of research where I identify where I have like a huge sample. I can wait the sample so I can make demographic claims and then I can organize them as boldness, moral, da da da dah. But I haven't done that yet. I haven't

done that. So on introversion extraversion note difference. One thing I was extremely interested in was belief in God, and so I gave people in the quantitative side of it, I gave people that which are these best describes your beliefs? Which are the best describes you? I believe in God. I don't believe in God. I'm not sure if I believe in God. Okay, so pretty I think pretty well? Question? Yeah,

zero correlation with anything, none, zero, zilch. Part of it is because so many people believe in God, the ceiling effect and so so so there weren't you know. I give you one more that I thought was interesting, which is I also asked people questions about free will and about fatalism, right, so that's really about their beliefs and so on. One of them, I said, do you I don't remember the exact words, do you typically believe that people? Do you believe that in general people have free will?

That is, they have control over what they did? Did a bit of it about okay? Something like eighty percent said yes, okay? And I said, do you in elsewhere? Right? So it wasn't they weren't paired together elsewhere? I said, do you think in general everything in life happens for

a reason? Eighty percent of people said yes. So what you had is you had the vast majority, not even close, believing both that they had free will and that everything happens for a reason, which I think itself is interesting. My gosh, did you pull Sam Harrison that overwhelming. The number. The percentage of people who believed in neither free will

nor that everything happens for a reason was like one percent. Okay, so those are those people are like just complete nihilists, all right, But then you would think that the logical thing would be, Oh, I believe in free will, I don't think that everything happens for a reason, or I think everything happens for a reason. Therefore that obviates free will. But those are very small categories too. The vast majority of people believe in both. What do you think that

says about humans? Like? What do you think that? What do you think is going on there underneath the surface. I think it says that, well, I mean, I think it says a lot of things. One of them I think it says is that when we try to understand behavior, we are sometimes too mechanical in our understanding of it. We don't, you know, So if we look at something like if I say to somebody, maybe not you, because

you're too sophisticated here. But if I say, if I say to somebody, our human beings generally generous or selfish, what's the answer to me? The answer to that question is obvious, Yes, right, we're both generous and selfish. Yeah, they're both true, even though they seem to be contradictory, they're both. They're it's shirting your's cat man, the cat is the cat dead or alive? Yes, and so and

so that's so I think that's part of it. The other part of it is that at an individual level is that that might be what our lives are is sorting that out, sorting out where we have control and where we don't, you know, every day, that's at the core of a lot of our decisions, I think, Scott. I mean, I just you know, like I just like before, I can't win to do this because it's the afternoon. It's like not my ideal time. I actually went out for a walk because I wanted to be like awake

and alert for this interview, right, I appreciate that. So, but no, I'm dead serious about that. And so when I think about that walk, it's a beautiful day here in Washington, DC as well. And so when I think about that walk, there were some things that I have control over and some things that I don't. I have control over what route I took. I didn't have control over whether at certain point a branch might have fallen

on me. I didn't have any you know, And so it's like even that like modest, quotidian, unexceptional walk that I just do, my wife and I just took, there were areas where I had control and areas where I didn't have control. And I think that part of our lives are about figuring that out. Where do we have sovereignty and where do we not? Yeah, I think that's

a very good point. My head keeps going back to something you mentioned earlier with this, the whole idea I brought up the bronze medalist is happier in the silver Medalist. There's something here that I want to unpack a little bit that your findings show about human nature. There really is this kind of like I could have been, so could have been somebody there, like what could have been? Seems to be a real important thread running through all this and the more sort of potential path ways in

the sort of the physics multiple world's universe. You can see for yourself. It seems to me, like you know what I'm saying, Dan, I like to get to, like, what is the thread that runs through all of your findings. What's the most zoomed out thing here. And you know, it just always strikes me when I look at like the data on happiness. You know, the researchers were shocked to find that the people living in the slums of Calcutta rated higher in life satisfaction than the average American,

you know. And there's something to being able to have a limited number of things that give you meaning and knowing that lots of other options are cut out than having lots of potential pathways you could have taken. I'm making any sense, Yeah, yes, But I think they're two different things, all right. I think they're talking about two different things. One of them is to one of them is to is to have fewer bases of comparison. But the other one is to have fewer things that you

care about. And I think those are I think those are different things. Okay, So if I have so, like, I actually think having fewer things to care about is probably universal. That ultimately what gives us meaning and satisfaction in our lives, and you know, there's better than anybody is a very small number of things, all right, A very small note. It's a very small number of things.

And I think that's probably true here in the leafy the leafy neighborhood of the Dish of Columbia where I live, as well as in the the streets of the slums of Okada. So that's so, I think that's one thing. The second thing, though, is are the basis of comparison, all Right? We all we know that comparison can be corrosive. And so with someone like you know, in my privileged situation, I think about, Okay, I think about my kids. My kids have who are you know? I got a kid

who's a high a college freshman. Mhm, he has a lot of pathways, all right. A nineteen year old in that slum has fewer pathways, right that My My my nineteen year old has been fortunately has been to several countries and places around the world. That nineteen year old from from Kolkatta probably has never been out of that metropolitan area. And so my guy can say, oh, man, should I live in Tokyo, that'd be kind of cool. Should I live in Mexico City, or that'd be kind

of cool. Should I live in Saint Louis? Should I from not Saint Louis? But should I live in you know, Sheboygan? Should I live in wherever you know, and so so he has more to he has more to he has more to compare, and when you have more to compare,

you have more to forego. Good. This is a really good nuanced by the way, and I really clearly see here your point that you make in your book that what's really important is to reduce our regrets about the four foundational things you talk exactly, foundation, boldness, moral, connection, and to minimize worrying so much about the exactly we know, even in the field of positichology research, are outside of the ProView what really gives us meaning in life. I

think that's what I can really get it at here. Yeah, I think that one takeaway from this is that one of the most important things in life is what you choose to ignore. So important what you choose not to give a shit about. I think that that is one of the most important decisions that we make. So it's like, you know, I'm actually working on something right now, Scott, which is a commencement address, And you know, one of the things I'm talking about here is attention. All right,

we are what we pay attention to. We become what we pay attention to. But at the core of attention, the ability to attention to the ability to pay attention depends on our ability to ignore. You can't pay attention unless you can also ignore. And knowing what to ignore is really important, and regret teaches us what to ignore. And it's most stuff. But yet there are a certain purview of things that we would we regret if we didn't take the action at least try. You know, I

keep my head. It keeps going back when you were talking about these examples to me, and all the times that I beat myself up that I didn't approach the cue girl, you know, or the like the person, you know, the you know, the the woman in the corner of the dance called them like wow, that person is so beautiful. And then I beat myself up at the end of the night, you know, when I was in my twenties, you know, in that kind of scene, but you know, just being like, darn it, I'm such an idiot. Why

didn't I just go? And all the times I did summon the courage to go and approach the person, and even if I very rarely do you get rejected as profoundly as you think in your head, you're going it's just like, well, the worst case scenario, they say I have a boyfriend or I'm not interested. You know, you're still like, I still feel good about myself at the end of the night. Absolutely, it's not like I'm beating

myself up over that I got rejected. I actually almost enjoy it, Like it's like, oooh, well, at least I did it. At least I know what could have been. But there I go back to the essential thing in there is that what could have been. It's the potentiality. It's almost like, at least at least I know, you know, that wasn't meant for me, or that was Sometimes it works out and I'm like, wow, that was meant for me,

But at least I know. It's like the uncertainty there, I think is what's killing us if we didn't go for part of it. Okay, I think that's part of it. I think part of it is uncertainty. But to channel our mutual friend Annie Duke here a minute, I think that I found that people were to use her language. I found that her the people were slightly less were less outcomists than I expected. That that what bug them about about that, that is because I have some OK, let's go to your let's go to the the the

SBK on the dating market regret here. All right, so we've got so first of all, you're not that special. We've got hundreds of people, hundreds of regrets in the database that basically say X years ago, there was a man slash woman I really liked. I wanted to ask him her out, but I chickened out, and now I regret it. But when so, I did follow up interviews with about one hundred and ninety or so of the

people who submitted these regrets. And when you talk to people with those kinds of regrets, they don't conjure images of they don't conjure stories of, oh my god, if I had talked to her, I would be have four kids and living in a nice They don't do that. They don't even take it that far. What bugs them is that they had a moment in their life where they could have stepped up and they didn't. That's what bugs them. That's part. I think the uncertainty of not

knowing is a big part of it. I agree with you about that, but I also think it's the fact that they didn't step up at that moment sticks with them. Yeah, So that therefore the boldness regret does blur into the others. These four can't be neatly separated in some sort of like you know, they're complete orthogonal sort of way, and

you would never make the claim they are. But you can see how the boldness one, Yeah, that's a thread even running into the can misconnections one, right, right, Well, I mean I think what you're getting at here is that there is something that goes even more deeply to the overall architecture of regret, which is the difference between action and inaction. Well, maybe that's right. I think, I really think that's it I had. I mean again, I can talk to you about this because other people won't care.

But like I had when I when I had outlined this book and you know, when I had my my research files and whatnot, I had, I was going to do a whole chapter on essentially what I call the rules of regret, or it's going to unpack like the five or six or whatever rules there were of regret. And as I did a lot of reading and a lot of research on this, it finally dawned on me literally after about a year. As I'm trying to like

tease out these. It all came down to action in an action so interesting that that that was the that was the big distinction here. And so when you look at these four categories of regret, and so for your listeners, let me quickly tell you what they are there. These are basically what I call the deep structure of regret. These are regrets not about the domain of life, but about something deeper going on. One is foundation regrets, if

only I'd done the work. These are regrets about not saving enough money, spending too much money, not taking care of your health, not working hard enough in school, things that give your make your foundation wobbly. Second, boldness regrets if only I'd taken the chance, not asking somebody out on a date, not starting a business, not speaking up, not going on an adventure. Third, more regrets if only I'd done the right thing, bullying merrily, infidelity and whatnot.

And finally, connection regrets if only I'd reached out, which are about the full spectrum of relationships in our lives, not only romantic relationship. This is important, all relationships that sometimes some traps inevitably drift apart and we don't do anything about it. So the biggest category was connection regrets.

The second biggest category was boldness regrets, but almost everything in there, not every The vast majority of regrets in there are regrets of inaction, yes, whereas the moral the moral regrets typically tend not exclusively because I have a moral regret about inaction, but the moral regrets tend to be about action overwhelmingly. Yes. And in the moral DOMAINI also found a lot of them are universal things that a lot of people can agree on, like bulling as

bad for instance. Yes, either their domain specific morality people don't you need flavor like. But what I found interesting about your finding is there are certain set of things that we people are not quibbling about really in their regrets. They're like, no, like I regret doing that. Yeah, right, But but but we know this from moral foundations theory that there's some moral things that everybody that people agree with, you know, don't harm other people, don't treat other people.

But there are other stuff where I had regrets that were a little bit you know, for inst I'll give you an example of this. You know, if you look at things like sanctity, degradation, purity authority, those kinds of things, there's a mixed yea, every day doesn't agree, you know.

So I have people who I have. I mean, I had this incident when I was talking about this a couple months ago where I was offering some of these moral regrets, and I offered up a moral regret that several people had that I write about a little bit in the book, which is Americans who regret not serving

in the military. And they regret not serving in the military, not because they missed out on the adventure, but because they felt that as a citizen, as a patriot, they had a duty to serve in the military and they didn't fulfill that duty. And then so I'm in an audience and it's like somebody in the audience, who is probably a political liberal, says, well, that's not a moral regret, And I'm like, you don't get to decide that, you know, like you get to decide your own moral regrets, but

you don't get to decide other people's moral regrets. Because, as we know from moral foundations theory, morality is vast. There's some things we agree on, but some things that we don't. Yeah, and I'm just thinking about how these blend, Like one can have a bravery regret that also is a moral regret. Like they both they take both categories at once. I think that's yeah, I think that's possible. Yeah. Yeah.

And and even just going a little bit deeper than an action versus in action another theme I'm hearing, And just tell me if this is right or wrong with with bravery, a lot of it comes down to as well. It seems like authenticity. People don't like when they're like, I acted a certain way, but that wasn't the real me, you know, or I could have acted a way that would have been more in line with what they're thinking

is the real me. But the research, the psychological research on that shows that with the people have an authenticity bias in that they put only the most moral things in their life within the category of the real me, and they and all the all the things that are bad. They're like, I've loved this the authenticity bias in my book Transfer. Yeah. So I'm just trying to link that

to your findings a little bit. You know, it does feel like people really beat themselves up over when they weren't like their best self, if that makes sense, or their aspirational self aspiration that good. Maybe it's maybe it's their beat. I don't know, you could be right. They beat themselves up when they when they are Yeah, they're aspirational cells rather than there they view them they're true

their true selves. Yeah, like right, because you know that last night I got drunk and I did those things that wasn't the real me, you know, like it's like, well, but it was part of the real you it was. You know, I've are you know, I've argued that all these things are us, you know, they're just what do we own and what do we not own? Is us take responsibility? So this is really really cool you've done here,

and it actually goes back in the academic literature. You know, I discovered this paper from nineteen ninety four called the Functional Basis of Counterfactual Thinking. Oh yeah, by Neil Neil rosa yea paper and yeah it's foundational. But in a lot of ways that's so much in wine with this thesis you have that there. It can actually be a powerful thing because they found in that study that thinking about how scenario might have gone better can actually improve

your future outcomes. And you're you're making this case that well, look thinking about regret if you integrate it in a meaningful way if you reflect on it in a healthy way as opposed to a ruminative way on how intrusive way, and psychologists also make that distinction between intrusive rumination and productive rumination or reflection. You say, look, regret can be very good for our lives, right, there's no question about it. I mean, you're exactly right that regret done right is functional.

The problem is a lot of problems, but part of it is that no one ever teaches us how to do it right. And so what happens is that that we're sold to build goods in some ways, that we should never have regrets, that we should never look back, or that we should always look always look forward. That's bullshit, right, But it's also not good to ruminate, as you say, to ruminate, to wallow on our regret. What we should be doing is we should be we should be we

should be confronting them. But there's no question, there's no question that regrets are functional, because well, I mean, maybe there is a question, but I mean, the odds are certainly in the favor of regret being functional because it exists in our brains after tens of thousands of years of evolution, so you know, what's the point. The point is like, so it's this thing that's aversive. It's an aversive feeling, and yet it's ubiquitous. It's arguably one of

the most common emotions. So this thing is ubiquitous, but it's unpleasant. So why do we have it? Because it's useful, because it's functional, you know, because our cognitive machinery is pre programmed for a regret if and we can use it if we treat it right. And I think that we have a I think we have a challenge in this country, especially with we don't equip people to deal

with negative emotions. We think that sometimes sort of inculcate people in the belief that negative emotions are a sign of weakness, that negative emotions are an aberration, when in fact, negative emotions are part of life, and if we treat them right, they're actually a useful part of life. Yeah. I see some of this as analogous to the work I've been doing in the field of post traumatic growth, and it's actually the topic of the book I have

coming out this year. It's called Choo's Growth. But the idea is that it's not the event itself that that leads to good or bad outcomes. It's how you've processed the event. It's how you've cognitively figured out sort of what is the meaning of it moving forward. It's not saying that you would have preferred not having the traumatic that you prefer having the traumatic event. You prefer that you lost a child, or you prefer that you got into the automobile accent over not right, because of course

you wouldn't. Of course you would that given it happened, And same thing in your domain regrets. Given the regret happen, you can't go You can't go in the time machine and change it. What is the most productive way moving How can you use it as fodder for a life of growth. So I just see it as analogous to that, absolutely, And I think it's a really really important point about that, that that negative experiences, let's forget about negative emotions, but

their negative experiences are not inherently debilitating. They're not they're inherently challenging. But whether they're debilitating or not depends, at least in part on how we respond to that challenge. Now, some of it, just to be fair, some of when we when we're talking about about about trauma, some of it. Some of our response to trauma is dictated in part

by organic biological, biochemical features. There's no question about that, and so you know, and and so, and some of it actually tips into the realm of illness that needs, you know, a medical problem that needs to be treated. But not all negative experiences and negative emotions need to be medicalized. This is something that you see on I mean,

you're you're professor. This is something that I see from a distance on college campuses, where it feels like it's like the solution to every unpleasantness on a college campus is we need more counselors. And everybody, you know, we need to everybody has to have a counselor. And I and that, and that worries me because it worries me because I think that some people desperately do need counselors,

some people do desperately need medical help, but not everybody. Yes, and when everybody is getting that medical help, it undermines the people who actually do need the medical help. Absolutely, I've noticed that pattern of everyone needs a counselor. But I've also noticed how everyone, every student needs their own accommodation.

That's another thing they've noticed their own unique special accommodation that none of the other students need or require, when in fact, the more you look into it deeply, you're like, actually, I think every student this class could probably benefit from that accommodation. Of course, there are certain and we're talking

we're not talking about the extremes. Of course, there are certain very specific learning disabilities and disorders that we want to give them as much help as possible, But there is I think what you're pointing to is this knee jerk reaction in all cases to immediately alleviate the uncomfortable needs. Try it right, exactly, immediately go in the mode of we, oh, we've got to make sure this child's perfectly happy in every way, as opposed to well teaching them you can be.

You can be with pain, You can be to a certain extent, you know you can you can be with an even use not just be, but you can utilize some of this for good. Yeah, that your life is going to be filled with ups and downs and set back and mistakes and traumas I hope not too many in the realm of trauma, but it's going to be filled with negative emotions and unpleasantness and discomfort and trying to insulate yourself or having mom and dad try to insulate you from that is a fool's game. It's actually

detrimental to growth. What we need to do is we need to help We need to normalize. And that's what I'm trying to do in this book, Scott, is normalize regret because it's normal, you know, and so and so. We need to We need to, you know, normalize these negative emotions, but and equip people with ways to deal with them. Not surprisedly, we're not doing either with those. What we're doing is is it we're we're implying, at least or sometimes stating outright, that these negative emotions are

somehow exceptional. There's something weird going on. It's totally out of the ordinary. You should never have to experience this negative emotion. And then what we're going to do is were you from the outside, are going to fix it for you rather than have you demonstrate the self efficacy and the moxie to address it yourself. Yeah. I totally get your project here, and I think it's a very

worthy project. I'm glad you did it. I'm actually thinking about titling this episode Normalizing Regret I don't know if that's yeah. Yeah, I love it to be a good title for this podcast episode. Yeah you say, and I'm cool to you. Regret is not dangerous or abnormal, a deviation from the steady paths of happiness. It is healthy and universal, an integral part of being human. Regret is also valuable clarify and instructs done right. It needn't drag

us down, it can lift us up. You know, you have on the one end people that you constantly they want to be happy all the time, and constantly if they're sad, they want to be happy. We also have those who are the kind of people like I live my life with no regrets. You have the people that are like, you know, I got nothing wrong with me, you know, kind of the other end of the spectrum. And you're saying that's not good. Ah, there's not good

to say, you say. The only people I believe this is a quote you said, the only people say I have no regrets are people who either have an image for a mind or a grave disorder. Yeah. Well, the only people who don't have regrets truly. I mean, given the ubiquity of this emotion are five year olds. They're categories of people who truly don't have regrets five year olds,

why their brains haven't developed. It takes a fair amount of dexterity cognitively to experience regret because you're moving through time and you're counterfactioning. You know who else doesn't have regrets. Certain kinds of neurodegenerative disorder, certain kinds of Parkinson's, it gets a for anny of it gets aph any patients often can't experiencing regret, and kinds of Parkinson's disease, certain kinds of lesions in the orbit of front of cortex.

Interfear with that, all right, So people would brain disorders and sociopaths. Everybody else has regrets. I got these people in the book, as you know, who have these tattoos that say no regrets. They believe this credo so deeply they enshrine it on their bodies. And that's nonsense, because you might as well get a tattoo that says no learning, no growth, no product. Do you want to walk around up with a tattoo that says no learning? I mean,

that's essentially what you're doing. Have you come across some has regretted having that tattoo? No Regrets. I have someone in the book who had a no Regrets tattoo and got it removed. There you, Jeff Bosley, you know I love that. I love that. Yeah, yeah, now you personally, I heard in some interview that you said that you one of your bigger regrets in life is not being more bold. What are you working toward? You have? When eyebrow went up, I said, that is that true? Did

I hear you right saying that? And then sort of what what are you working on in your life right now? To kind of how's it productively identifying the great? Has it productively helped you moving forward? Well? I mean I think it's because they're Yeah, I guess my real answer is I don't know, and I'm trying to figure that out right now, and this book has been a catalyst for my figuring that out. So that's my that's my

honest answer. I think more brought My equally honest but less fully realized answer is that you know when you get to be So I'm in my mid fifties and I have a sense of my mortality in a way that I didn't when I was in my mid thirties. That changes the way I look about things. I look at the you know, I you know, I worked in politics for a while before doing this, and lately I've seen all of these people who I knew from when I worked in politics, who were the bosses at the time,

Big Fazzio, Mattlan Albright. They're dead. They passed away, and it seems like just a blink of an eye. And at the time that they were the bosses, they were probably about my age right now, And I'm thinking, holy moly, that sure went fast. Are these next years going to go as fast? And when am I going to step up and really make the highest and best contribution that I can make as a person? And that requires I

think more discomfort than I have in my life right now. Yeah, I mean, even that is a really important realization, as I would tell you my clients, you know, like that's great, like even if you don't have to find detour, you know, find contours fully set out, you know, the fact that you know that about yourself, because weren't you at a you were at like a college commencement address of your

daughters or something when you had this realization as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Well that's that's when I really started thinking about it. That's when I sort of had a sort of a moment where I was just the passage of time was really just crystallized for me because I couldn't believe that this person who was just born was in its cap and gown. It was just I mean, a lot of parents have that. It's like, again, I'm not that special,

but that's one of that that was really like. That was in twenty nineteen when our elder daughter graduated from college, and that was really a that was a catalyst for me in pursuing this topic of regret. But I do think that we don't talk enough about our mortality, and it's because we're freaked out by it, but we still know it. And I've always thought that at some level it's the back beat to our lives. It's not like the the full melody. It's not the lyrics we're singing

all the time. I don't think it should be, but at some point it's the back beat that we all know we're going to die. And I think that's I think that's what gives rise to a lot of these bullness regrets and knowing that I'm going to die is and probably sooner rather than it than I, and I imagine makes me wonder when am I going to actually step up and be bull Absolutely. Something that dawns on me about your your project is you you heard a lot of talk about deathbed regrets and all the talk.

You're not waiting for that. You know. What I like about your book is like, what actions can you take today based on some regrets you may have had the past to live a better life moving forward? And I like your project better. That have to say, I'm very scar like I'm not a fan of deathbed regrets for

a couple of reason. Number one, show your work like I feel like it's it's completely cherry picked and like like something somebody whispers a few things to someone who happens to be there at the time, and then it's concocted into a bigger theory. The second is is that you know, I'm not sure that that is the moment of our highest lucidity, Okay. And then third is like and then third, it's too late. If you're thinking about your regrets when you you know, moments before you're drawing

your last breath, it's it's useless. You've squandered it, You've wasted this powerful emotion. I couldn't agree more. I'm so happy you wrote this book. Again. I'm reiterating this because it's like, why wait to your deathbed regret to reflect on that? You know, like thirteen year olds could be reflecting on what regrets they had up to their point their life. That to make that, I mean, there's no there's no age when you're like, okay, now you should

start thinking about your regrets. And I love that. For the remaining time we have today, can I ask you some Twitter questions? Because I put up Did you see I put out a call on Twitter? Do you I did not? I? Okay, I did not, no problem, but it got a lot. I'm sure that the Twitter questions are student and challenging. Lay it on me. Cool, and I'm gonna just ask in real time. There were so many questions. I didn't have time to process them all

ahead of time. Okay, So one is okay, you can regret and be grateful for something at the same time. Would be interested in his take on that? Sure? I agree? I mean, I mean, here's the thing. It's like, it's like it's it's actually a very in slightful point, so so so A couple of things. Let's say somebody regrets taking a job that they don't like. Right, So one way too, Oh my god, I totally wasted two years of my life in that job. It was it brought

me down. It was terrible, all right. I regret taking that job. So one way to take some of the sting out of it is to do a downward counterfactual and say, and at least it, you know, but you say it, but at least I met my my best my close friend Ed, all right, so you could. So so here's the thing, so you can you can regret that and be glad that in your that Ed is in your life right now. And maybe you might maybe

you knew like Ed so much. Maybe you met your spouse at this crappy job, all right, and so you might. So somebody made you a bargain and says you can go back and not take this job, but you won't meet your spouse. You might say, no, no, I'll take it. I'll take the hit on the job so I can get back. But the thing is is, like you can those two things, those two things are you know, those

two things to me are compatible. You can be satisfied with your life and grateful for your life on where it is today as I am, but also look back on your life and say, oh I regret that I regret that things are totally compatible. Awesome. Yeah, thanks for that ellaboration. Interesting topic, I'd say, having been too docile to my inner critics. Two questions, if I may, why do some people tend to experience remorse rather than regret and vice versa? And is there any link between sensitivity

to regret and neuroticism? Okay, so on the second one, sensitivity to regret and neuroticism, I don't know. My hunch right, My hunch, and it's just a hunch, is that there probably is a link between neuroticism and the propensity to ruminate and to wallow. That's a hunch, but I have no idea. I'm on the on the difference between on remorse and regret. I mean, I look at remorse as essentially guilt, and to me, guilt is one flavor of regret.

It's at least moral regret. Like I don't like like like If I like, I got people who I got people who didn't who wish they had studied abroad. They were chicken to go overseas, and they wish they had they had studied abroad. You know, they're thirty five years old, and so if only had studied abroad, all right, they don't have any guilt about that, they don't have any remorse about that. But if they bullied somebody, they have remorse about that. So, for me, remorse is a category

of regret, the moral regrets. Wow, I need to think about that more. That's really interesting. My regret not fighting harder when I was sued by a copyright troll. My question, how does Dan recommend we let go or reframe old regrets so we keep moving forward? Okay, so I'm all for fighting copyright trolls, having been in my own copyright battles, having to how to engage a very talented copyright lawyer several times to deal with these weasels. I'm sorry, I

got so, I got so thrown. What was the question again? So how do we how do we let go? Yeah? How do we reframe old regrets so we keep moving forward? I think well, aspect is interesting there. Yeah, yeah, I mean what you want to do is you want to you know, again, regret reguards agency. It is your fault okay, and so it's not disappointment. Disappointment is just external circumstances.

So if it is your fault, the most important first step, to my mind is treating yourself is actually enlisting self compassion, that is, treating yourself with kindness rather than contempt. So a lot of times when we make mistakes, we lacerate ourselves. We talk to ourselves in ways that are cruel and brutal and vicious, in ways that we would never talk to another human being. So we shouldn't talk to ourselves that way. So treat yourself with kindness rather than contempt.

Recognize that your mistakes are part of the human condition, that you're not that Again, I keep coming back to this point, you're not that special. And also that any mistake you make, and this I think a big issue that people have is any mistake you make is a moment in your life. It's not the full measure of your life. I think a lot of times people will take something that represents this tiny little patch of their whole life and say, this embodies my entire life. It

fully describes who I am. And that's nonsense. I think that's the first step in letting go is self compassion, kindness rather than contempt, recognizing that these mistakes are part of the human condition, and also recognizing that they're a moment in your life, not the full measure. Yeah, I think that answers Alexis Reid's question is how do we as humans release shame or guilt around regret for a

decision behavior action? Yeah, that's really Yeah, Well, shame is Shame is interesting because because shame is you know, shame, I mean, you know, shame is I mean, guilt is I did a bad thing. Shame is I'm a bad person, and so you know, and so you want to do is you want to you want to go after the behavior, not the essence? You know, you want to you know, I don't think that any single behavior embodies the full quality of who we are, for the same reasons you're

talking about, Scott. I mean, where people say, oh, you know, my authentic self is good and just, but I happen to have bullied somebody. But that's not the real me, you know, So they would frame it in their head as I'm regretful that it wasn't the real me. Yeah. As a I thought this was an interesting question. Is being consistently in the public eye a hindrance to expressing

experiencing regret as much as others. I wonder if someone with celebrity admitting to their mistakes will make them feel they'd be perceived as irredeemable for their actions as a fallow up. Do people experience less regret if they don't feel well received by others and expressing it. I wonder if someone, if some cognitive dissonance we experience, puts up walls for reflecting in future experiences. Think like any villain

in a Marvel movie. Hope these both make sense. Do you want to pick up the ball in any of that? The first one? The first one makes sense, I think

there is. I think there's a fair point that sometimes people in the public eye, particularly in politics, I think more than anything else, but maybe in a maybe in the broader public realm, you know, they might be like, if I'm running for office and I admit some kind of regret, I mean, it's possible that my opponents will just completely collaborate for it, and I might be better off tactically not breathing a word of it. I might

be better off tactically as a politician. I'm not sure I'd be better off as a human being, So there might be, there might be, there might be something to do that. On the other hand, you know, we know that in certain circumstances, not all, not in certain circumstances at all, Revealing our vulnerabilities, you know, builds affinity. So it's so, it's so, it's it's it's it's striking out. But I can see in that certain kinds of celebrities

would not want to do that, particularly in the political realm. Yeah. Yeah, well one person. This is just not a question, but I think it's worth it's nice positive things. John Roberts for us, no regrets, just acceptance of my past and present imperfections. At each given moment, we're the best versions of ourselves given the environment and headspace we're in. We should do our best to learn from the past for a future well being, not dwell on it, dwell on

it in the present. Seems like that's so in line with the message. Yeah, kind of like amen. The other thing about it is that John is John is evaluating the decision that he made. He's not evaluating John, He's evaluating the decision. And I think that's really important, super important. I'll end here with a really cheeky question, trivial or false asks Daniel's pink, but Steve and his pinker ask him how much he likes that joke. I admire the effort behind that joke. So I'll give you a I

give you professor Pink, will give you an incomplete. I think it's a promising line of inquiry, but it needs to be it needs to be better executed, Daniel. When you ask a question on Twitter, you never know what you're going to get, and I, you know, I try to give a little diversity of the kind of questions people ask. Again, I want to just end this in here by saying once again that I'm so glad you wrote this book. I think it really that's the heart

of common humanity we all share. You really illustrate that, and maybe even just knowing that information can help us all have greater connections with each other and reduce our regret that we didn't have those connections just by having that common humanity awareness, you know what I mean? Here's hoping. Yeah, thank you so much, Dan, Thanks Scott, it's a pleasure. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Psychology Podcast. If you'd like to react in some way to something

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