Charles Koch || Believe in People

largest privately held American companies. During his tenure with the company, the estimated value has grown from twenty one million to more than one hundred billion. Charles has published several books detailing its business philosophy, including the Science of Success, Good Profit, and Believe in People. As an influential philanthropist, he supports education, a community of organizations addressing persistent poverty, and public policy

research focus on developing effective solutions to societal problems. He has founded new uamous organizations, including Stand Together and the Cato Institute, and he holds two master's degrees in nuclear and chemical engineering from MIT and He lives in Wichita, Kansas with his wife Liz. In this episode, I talked to Charles about his bottom up approach to social change.

Charles recognizes that each individual has a gift. Schools and organizations should cultivate these unique strengths instead of trying to force people into molds. Charles asserts that institutions can create more meaningful value this way by truly believing in people. We also touch on the topics of multiple intelligences, self actualization, education, innovation, and philanthropy. So it's my great pleasure to bring you, Charles Koch. How you doing. Hey, this an honor. Oh,

it's an honor to talk to you. I've wanted to talk to you for such a long time. Well, yeah, I mean I think I thank to Elizabeth for sending me your book in the first place, and now I got to thank you for writing it for goodness sake. Oh wow, you know I heard that you liked my Well I liked I liked it all. But but those footnotes were so powerful, particularly about Maslow's mother, and that that made me think more deeply about my parents, and and what I learned from then that I wanted to

use and what I didn't want to use. So it wasn't this I hated everything, but I certain things I didn't like, and we can get into that if you want, because I think that that kind of forms I want to get into it. I could sider the interview started, you know, as I started, okay, because you know, like we're just having fun here, you know, we're just gonna we're gonna nerd out on all of our mutual interests. But I saw I definitely want to hear about this.

Do you remember do you remember which footnote in particular or just you know, his he talked about his complicated relationship with his mother, you know. Well, yeah, there were many many other footnotes in there that I but that was the one that really gripped me because I had no idea that he he hated, as he put it,

he hated everything she stood for. Yeah. So I think that is so cool because you know, he had a lot of these insights, mostly in the last two years of his life, you know, And that's the really interesting thing. And that's what he said, He said, it took me sixty one years to figure this out. Yeah, and he we lived to sixty two, you know, so that was that was the last couple of years of his life. He was having all these transcendent awakenings we can call them.

Didn't he die in in nineteen seventy, Yes, June eighth, nineteen seventy. That's almost a nerd I am. But I know so he was born in eight correct eight he was born, so he was almost identical my mother's age. She was born in O seven. You're good at math, Charles, Yeah, No, that was just what I at. You just did that computation on the spot, you know. Yeah, I know, I know,

and I know that you also. We also, we have so much nerd out on today because I know you also really like multiple intelligence theory, and you have identified yourself as logical mathematical intelligence. But you did you know that I did my PhD with Robert Sternberg. No, I did. I should actually say, have you ever come across Robert Stenberg's working No, no no, I haven't. So Sternberg and Gardner were the two big ones who redefined intelligence in the

eighties and nineties. So Gardner, you obviously know and frames of mind for our listeners, he had the multip intelligence theory, but Robert Steenberg has a little bit of a different theory. I'd love to just let's see what you think of his theory. So he has analytical intelligence, creative intelligence, and practical intelligence, and he argues those three are different kinds of intelligence. Let me just ask you, do you see

that kind of pull part? Do you think you're better at analytical than practical for instance, or creative more than anything else? Like, do you see them come apart with you at all? Well, I've got a different theory than all of them in that I think everyone's intelligence is unique to them. And that's my personal experience because my father and one of my brothers and I all were really good at math and logic, and they were both very good engineers. And although I got three degrees in engineering,

I sucked as an engineer. I mean I really sucked. I couldn't you think, Okay, I was good at all the theory. You know, I'm three six years at MIT. But I wasn't good at making or operating anything, So how could I be an engineer? Weren't good, But I was good at the math and the science. And I love thermodynamics. And that's a big because maybe you've seen I use that in everything, in our management everything, And that is as many of the top scientists say, that

is probably the most fundamental of nature. It's the second law of termindynamics, and entropy is always virtually always increasing. I agree. You know, when I saw that in your book you said that you liked entropy, I made a note that I wanted to talk to about that because I noticed that, Oh, yeah, this is really amazing. We already started this interview with like four threads that we could that are really interesting. Well, it makes me I finished, though not my point on the on the on the

difference in intelligence. So I knew I wouldn't be good enduring. So I kept trying to kept experimenting. And that's what it's about. Finding your gift is not somebody can tell you, oh, you have this intelligence, you go take an aptitude test. I mean, that might help, but you've got to go experiment to what turns you on and what enables you to contribute. Do things that will turn you on, will will will make you excited, wake up at night wanting to do more of it and contribute, and that others

will value. So you're contributing to the lives of others through that. And when you have that combination. I mean, that's what happened to me, but not through engineering, I said, when my father persuaded me to come back and run our small business at the time, I mean I was successful at helping that because it was in bad shape, because he had such bad health. As you saw, I wrote a bot. But I was, as Maslow said, I wasn't developing my capacities. I felt this huge void, and

I know I have a capacity to do more. So I've got to find it. So I started studying every discipline and history to find what I call principles of human progress, principles of human flourishing. And that's how I found Maslow and Howard Gardner. But I also found Polani and Nieces and high act and you name it, and each one. I wouldn't take what they said literally. I would then try to find arguments against it, because as who said that, if you know only your side of

the case, you know little of that. I like it. I don't know who said it. That's well, it'll come to me. So I did that. And as I started finding these principles, then I had to apply them in every aspect of my life. Find out how to apply them in business, in our family, in my other relationships, and my charitable work and everything, and as I did in each area, I would learn things that would help me in the other aspects of my life. So that

was my real gift. Is not that I'm better at math and some mathematician or nearly as good or better at science then some No I'm not. But what I'm good at is taking abstract principles and applying them to get results. Yeah, that's still a gift, and that's but that was through trial and error, a lot of failures, and then finding principles in the different disciplines that were consistent, like what in economics fits, psychology fits what in philosophy

fits in sociology. That's reinforcing and that worked through history that made people's lives better. Well, you know, I'm always so curious in kind of the seeds of this stuff because you said a lot of it was trial and error, which is eternally true, but you also had a gift in the nact for it. You said in your book that even at each three or so or three or four, you realize that you and joyed math, and you were better than the other kids in the school at math.

Isn't that right? It was a third grade yeah, third grade? Yeah, So there there. You know, there are some seeds of our even the interest we can say, you know a lot of You see with these prodigies, even in very young they have this rage to master. You've had a rage to master in in in multiple things, right, I mean you also had a rage to master and understand the principles of helping to bring out the best in

your employees. When you had this major transformation that we could talk about, that little transformation of it or that huge transformation. You said, my task was clear change the company's culture to one of empowerment not control. Can you tell me a little bit about before what Coke Industries was like right before that, because you said you had some failures before that and then what this trans what led to that transformation? Well, Coke Industries back back, well,

when I joined it was in Coke Industries. We had two business One was a Rock Island oil company and another was called Coke Engineering and Rock Out and all had a gathering crude all gathering system in southern Oklahoma. That is, it took oil from the lease and took it a relatively short distance to a major pipeline. And so we'd get a small fee for that. But that was a good business, but it was stagnant and they

limited it to just doing it there. And so we said, I fortunately had a great partner who I wrote about, who was wonderful. He grew up in a tent and was born in a tent in an oil field, had all kinds of ailments, never finished college, and he was terrific, triffic with people as an entrepreneur. And that's part of our philosophy. Now we don't look for credentials. We look for somebody with a gift that can help us create

value for others. And whose paraphrase Maslow, whose contribution motivated wants to succeed by contributing rather than manipulating or hurting others are falsely making themselves look good and anyway, So we made that much more entrepreneurial and spread and became the largest crude algether in North America. And then now we've sold that business and we're out of it. And then the other was coke engineering, where we made internals for disolation columns. You know, a chemical plan or refinery.

See these columns, what has internals in them that caused the separation by difference in boiling points and that business was stagnant, just like the other one was, and it was top down and going nowhere matter Fay was break even. It wasn't making any money. So we started applying some of these humanistic concepts and good economic thinking, combining those

two and it just took off. And then we applied the what I call virtuous cycles of mutual benefit, which is my way of applying the process of self actualizing to an organization. And so I look at creating virtual cycles of mutual benefit by an individual is the process of self actualized. I love it, Charles. That sounds to me like this notion of synergy than Maslow talked about, which he actually got from Ruth Benedict to the anthropologist. I actually saw that in your book. I learned a

lot from your book. I like to think I knew all this stuff, but I did. You've educated me. Well, this great She's oh, this is a great thing. Having kids that now are educating me more than I'm educating ma'am. I mean, this is well, it doesn't get any better than that. I absolutely adore your daughter, Elizabeth Cooke. She

is amazing, She is awesome. So I just really want to put that on the record, But yeah, you know, I I love this idea of synergy and I love that you love it too, you know, but a lot of people aren't talking about it. A lot of people have false notions or a false economy between selfish and the unselfish. That yeah, let me tell you. When I published Good Profit, then since I spent all this time at MIT, the dean of the business school at MIT want to come and interview me in front of the

students and they could ask questions. So he was interviewing me, and then during the q and A, one of the graduate students says, well, you talk about all this focus on creating value for others. Isn't that a little naive? He said, I mean, shouldn't you just you've got to maximize your profits? I said, well, maybe maybe it is a little naive, but it's working pretty well for us. And is that more naive or it is more naive just to think about yourself? What's you? Then? Why is

anybody going to want to do business with you? And it's not just if you're just thinking about yourself and not the value you create for all those who are important to you and not just your customers. But how about your employees. How about your suppliers. Do you want to just beat them down, as a lot of companies do, rather than reward them for innovating and help you succeed. And how about your communities? And how about society as

a whole. If you don't worry, if you don't have good stewardship, that is, acting in a way that with due regard for the rights of others, they're not going to want you to exist. So you have to You have to focus on creating value for others and then and focus in areas where you have the capability to do that. And that's the same for an individual and an organization. And we would hope a society preachs, brother,

preach I love it, not just you know idea. No, I know you're not, but I'm saying I love it. You can keep going all day. Hey everyone, I'm excited to announce that the eight week online Transcend course is back. Become certified in learning the latest science of human potential and learn how to live a more fulfilling, meaningful, creative, and self actualized life. The course starts March thirteenth of

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as an add on. Save your spot today by going to Transcend course dot com. That's Transcend Course. We have so much fun in this course and I look forward to welcoming you to be a part of the Transcender community. Okay, now back to the show. I was wondering, during the course of your career, when has there been a conflict?

Can you think of any examples in your life where there was an opportunity presented to you or something that directly because that's when we're we kind of are most authentic right when it's challenged, not when it's not challenged. So yeah, I just wonder to any examples of that in your life when some of these fundamental principles of yours have been challenged and you had to make a

tough decision. Well, we have failed and continually failed to fully apply our principles and our success and so yeah, we've had many failures. I write in the books about shipping about dealing not dealing with employees narcissistic employees who have the idealized self, and the more feedback we give them then the more destructive. So we need to apply the principle they need to go somewhere else and get treatment. We can't. We can't do it. The more we try

to help them, the worse they get. So that's a violation. And then safety problems partularly with companies we acquired, but with our own and I remember preaching about boy were having safety problems and other problems. We got to do better and just preaching rather than really getting in and intervening. And when we started having it affect their bonus and their position and their authority, then they started to change. So there have to be consequences to people. They have

to be accountability. You can't just be lecturing. And that's a big mistake we made with our framework and applying these principles. You know, I thought, Okay, we just talk and everybody will get it and be turned on by all the concepts like I am, and that doesn't work. I mean it works for some, but for most people there have to be accountability, They have to have a cost to this behavior. And then they say, okay, now I get it. You know, one way of frison that

I would say is motivating from within. And I think that this is really relevant to your really great distinction that you make between top down and bottom up organizations. You said top down earlier, but I thought it'd be worth it to actually explain a little bit to our audience what you mean by that difference. So could you please explain what bottom up and top down means in

your model? Right? Well, yes, top down. It's what how I called the fatal conceit that you think you know better than everybody how to do their job, how to run their lives, everything. So so rather than empower them and use their knowledge and help them develop and realize their potential and have meaning in their lives and get excited about what they're doing and so they can innovate, you stifle you control and stifle them and make them

dependent on you. And we see that everywhere. And I'll give you some I mean, for example, the use of technology today there's some companies who use it, like in certain manual jobs, to time them and watch their motions and then they go in and inter be no, if you if you move this way, you can do it quicker and do everything faster. And I mean that's like treating people as a slave. Is that like McGregor's theory X yeah exactly, yeah, yeah, And so that's still out there.

And so we've invested heavily in tech knowledge, but we try to use it to empower people, to make the people's jobs interesting and so they get get turned on. And I'll give you an example of this individual named Pedro was working in the night shift in the building cleaning the building, and he wanted something better and he said, God, there's no future in this. So he took a job much higher pay breaking up concrete. He was getting twenty five dollars an hour and he said, he said, this

is going nowhere, and I hate this. So he said, I'm going to get a job that where I can learn and as I learned, then I can have a more fulfilling work and fully use my and developed my abilities. And so he got a job. We're doing manual work on a laser cutting businessess and as he started in that, he started to gain more skills. So he said, I want to go back to Coke because they will give me the opportunity then develop. Now that I've got a

track that leads somewhere. So he came back and now he's a programmer for these laser systems because in that which he never knew. And so that's why I say, we don't hire on credentials. We hire on values and talent, and that is being contribution motivated. And you've got some talent that will help us create value, then we want you here. Matter of fact, the head of our IT security I never graduate from college, and he's terrific. Yeah,

so I'm really glad that you bring that up. And also the idea of giving opportunities to really talented and contribution motivated people who wouldn't ordinarily have as opportunities. I know you're deeply interested in that. You point out in your book the tragic realities of the deterioration of core institutions that people rely on even in the toughest times. You write America's on a trajectory toward a two tiered society, one in which fewer people get ahead and more people

fall behind. I know you are deeply interested in helping the people who are falling behind. I was just wondering some to hear some of your thoughts on how we can, because this is definitely an area of mutual interest of ours. Is all these people falling between the cracks are people who have these amazing talents and people who are just contribution motivated. They don't even need I would argue that the talent is not even as important as I prefer

the contribution motivated part. You know, how can we get them more opportunities in society and get them more seen and resources. We need to show both educators and business people that there's a better way, and this top down, one size fits all, like our education system that teach the test, run it on averages rather than the individualized

education that helps each person find their gift. And there's a little book on that which I have right here somewhere called called Unschooling Rules by Aldridge, and in it he says education ought to be three dimensional. That is, you learn to be, That is, you learn who you are, and then you learn to learn. You learn the things that will that you need to know to contribute and develop, and then you need to learn how to apply. And

that's what I did. Okay. I learned that I had these gifts in this narrow area, and I wasn't good. The other thing that's important is to learn once you're not good at And I learned through trial and error all the different jobs I had and all the things I wasn't good at. And then I learned it through

studying engineering, and I wasn't good at that. But it took me twenty years of floundering around in the wilderness to find my particular gift, which is applying these abstract concepts to help organizations get results and get results by

contributing to others. But it took me twenty years. And my daughter and son, you know, I taught all this stuff to them when they were little, or most of it, and then it took them to find their own unique path that would be fulfilling to them and give meaning in their lives and let them fully realize their potential. And now they found it, and they're both just they're blowing me away as I tell them both, you always your age are doing much more and much better than

I did at your age. Yeah, well, you know, they were. Obviously we're very fortunate to have the economic resources to realize that potential. I want to just zoom in on my question a little bit more before that question goes away. You know, how can we like lots of these kinds of kids that have these potentials, are contribution motivated, but are just schools where their safety needs are their top priority.

How can we get them more thinking about growth? Well, that's what we're doing through through this charitable community that we're involved in. We support I would say hundreds of experiments in education to find that and find things that would connect. And we have one that lives My wife

and I started thirty years ago called Empowered. It used to be called Youth Entrepreneurs, but in that it was it was to help particularly in schools and troubled neighborhoods, to go into there and offer a class that taught them the basics of success and to help them find

their gift. Then have them prepare a business plan based on something that have a passion for, and then the ones that look good, provide a little seed capital, maybe one hundred dollars or a few hundred dollars so they could start, and then they find their gifts, find out to apply it and start to believe in themselves because a lot of these are considered throwaway kids, as they call them, and they're no one who's the throwaway. So

I'm just one example of this girl named April. She was one of the winners, and she told the story of graduation how she was failing everything. Her mother was in drugs, her father was gone, her brother was shot, and someone was in prison, and so she thought it was hopeless. So she was failing everything. And she comes to this she hears about this class where you maybe you can get some money. So that's good. She wants to get some money, and she says, Wow, to get money,

I've got to learn how to prepare business plans. I got to learn how to write and speak. I've got to if I have a business, I've got to learn math or I won't be able to see what's working and what's not. And if I want to have customers and people work from, I got to start treating people with respect. And she said it transformed my life and I started getting straight a's. And that's the waste we're

seeing with the current system. And so we broaden that to what we call empower, to empower show the teachers there is a better way, and that is that it's this three dimensional education to help them learn who they are, where they have an aptitude, where they have a passion. Then learn all the things that are necessary. It's like my father used to tell me when I was He said, sudden, learn everything you can because you never know whether they're

coming handing. Then learn how to apply it in a way that in a way that other people will value and reward you for it, so then you have the mutual benefit. And this is what Maslow said so well. He said when you have this kind of management in the company as well, where a company tries to do that, it's revolutionary. And he said it was. You remember he said that it was that education was the most important thing.

And now he says, well maybe business, because everybody has got to work somewhere, and when they do in this kind of atmosphere, it changes their whole being and their whole approach when they have this opportunity to find their gift and apply it. So so what we do now is the number one job of every supervisor, and we have like twenty some thousand supervisors in our company is to help their people self actualize. Oh love it and what that and what that means is that they've got

to help them find a gift and a passion. So design a roll around them, not stick them in a role in something they're not good at and hate and then punish them for that. When we got when somebody is trying hard and they're failing, we take it. That's our fault. We've if you know, now, if you're not trying and you don't give a damn and you're destructive, then that's different. But if you're trying, then we've got the We're going to find a role for you where

you can succeed. And then to mentor them and give them the tools. And this is what I want technology is doing now to give them the tools and information so they can be more independent. As Maslow said, they can have ownership for what they're doing, have more authority, and then they really get turned on. And I can't tell you. I mean, like I told you about Pedro, we have so many examples now where either the employee took the initiative. I don't like this role, but if

I'm in this, I think I'll be turned on. And then we try them in that and it works and they said, now I know what you mean by being self actualized or it can be some supervisor sees them and they have a talent that they could use better in a different role. So we're now we're building this call. I'm say, I'm not saying we're perfect. We have a long way to go, but where we get that, I mean, the results just go through the roof. I love that.

I love that. I'm really interested in transforming teachers and their purpose from teachers to self actualization coaches. And I'm really trying to build up a coaching program for teachers that teaches them the latest principles of human development and human potential so they can spot the strengths. And also the managers and supervisors. Sounds like you're training them over there to be self actualization coaches as well. So if we target it from both ends, you know, you know,

we go a long way. And we're and that's what that's what we're trying to do in our education experiments too. And I mean, and that's what what youth entrepreneurs now being empowered is, That's what it is. And then we're working with Saul Khan have you have you looked at

him Saltkon, Yeah, yeah, he's great. So we have a partnership with him to take his materials and combine that with a coach, a live coach, and these will be volunteers, Like somebody has retired and they're looking for some way to contribute, and they're good at math, so they would volunteer to help groups who are using salcan stuff that come in and and tutor them. Or it could be a high school student who has a gift and match come in and help them, or or somebody who's good

verbally or good at at anything. And so now we're building this inventory and we have thousands of volunteers, people who are saying, I love this, this will be this will be a blast. So we need to we need to work more fully together. I know you you've you've talked to some of our people that stand together been I think we're we're absolutely on the same page here,

I mean one hundred percent. So when I was reading Believe in People, I basically I could have under I could have highlighted every sentence they go, yes, yes, yes, I absolutely agree. And it's just how cool would that be to just transform education where teachers felt like their purpose wasn't just to manage the students, but to actually bring out their best potential and just completely reframe the whole issue. Oh, it'd be so exciting when it. Oh yeah, no,

that's that's our goal. Yeah yeah. And then and then get businesses to stop hiring on credentials and start hiring on on values and talent. And then and then find roles that that are design roles around people's talents rather than that sticking round pegs in square holes. Totally. I think our mutual friend Todd Rose has a book with that title. Oh yeah, We've been working for some time with Todd. I think, as you know, it does great work in the education space too. Yes, yes, you know.

I want to just shift for a second to the all these divides we have right now, like the political divides. I really really like your shift, your proposed shift from partisanship to partnership. I love it. I love it. I'm going to actually read a quote before it, before I give the microphone for a second, I want to read

one of your quotes that I loved. You said, I'm still passionate about removing barriers in public policy, and that requires participating in politics, but not in the usual partisan way. A superior approach is partnership, cooperating with people to accomplish public policies that help improve people's lives, regardless of which political party our partners belonged to. When did you start, you know, having that idea about that paradigm shift and how are you enacting that today? And who are you

working with along these lines? Well? I always had it, but it's what I didn't live up to it. As Michael Pliny pointed out, that innovations come from seeing gaps, gaps between what you're doing and what you could be doing unmet needs. And so what we do is get every We tried to get every employee to realize that however, well they're doing maybe the best in the world, but

there's a better way to do it. And the way, you see the better way is by seeing, Okay, here's what we're doing, and if we were fully applying our principles, what would we be doing differently, and then set up experiments to close that gap. And when we get people and groups doing that, it takes off. So go back

to politics. I mean I started studying these principles almost sixty years ago and applying them and as I said, trial and error, we've failed and the way we were applying them, and then we'd learned something and do better, and then applying them in our philanthropic work or social change work. And as we did, we realized we've started. I started with education. We can do it with as I said earlier, by educating. No, no, we've got to

change some of these policies. There's policies are holding people back, so we've got to change. And so we worked on that for a while. But then we went, Okay, the politicians aren't interested. We got to find politicians who will empower people, not try to control them and make them dependent so they can get more power. And so then we got in politics and it looked like the only

way to do that is pick a side. So we fell into that and violated well principle of one of my heroes, Frederick Douglas unite with anybody to do right and no one to do wrong. And so I've realized that, okay, we're not well. I I developed this idea, this principle on partnerships. The best partnerships are are when you find someone you share vision and values and have complementary capabilities. And all the good partnerships I've had, that's that's made

us successful, including my wonderful wife. We have those we share vision and values and have complementary capabilities. That is, I'm only good at a narrow range of things and she's good at everything else, So works out great for me. Can I read? Can I read a quote? Real quick? You said, No, one has changed my life more than my life Liz. She has everything I'm not and everything I need. I just want to read that book. That's beautiful. No,

that's that's so true. And now my case, so I got I got a whole family that's shoring me up, which I sorely need. Yeah. So anyway, so so we saw that that was that this this idea of partnerships, I was applying that too broadly, Like we got to share. We got to have the same vision on how society look as a whole. Well, no, we're I mean I don't agree with what I believe last year, so I mean I'm going to be by myself here pretty soon.

So he said, no, No, we got to narrow down vision to a vision on a particular problem, whether that's a criminal justice system, whether that's foreign policy, whether that's how to deal with poverty or addiction or the criminal justice. As I said, so once we narrowed that down, then then that opened up that we can partner with almost anybody who really wants to help people. If they don't, if they just want power, then we don't share really

share vision and values. Yeah, so you want to stick with your principles, So I just want to read some of these guiding principles you have. I just want to read the list. Integrity, stewardship and compliance, principled entrepreneurship, transformation, knowledge, humility, respect, and my favorite self actualization. Now, these are the principles of progress. I assume these are the principles you're referring to that you will reach across party lines with anyone

who who shares these common principles. Is that right? Well? These are Yeah, these are central, but they're broader principles

for except a first society just globally. What we would like is a society that we've never had in this country that fully live up to the principles and the declaration of independence which we're putting in put in my words, it's it's a system have a system, a society based on equal rights and mutual benefit, where people succeed by contributing to others and everyone has the opportunity to realize their potential and live a life of meaning by finding

a calling that helps others. I love that. And you see these days, you see so much like greed and various forms of capitalism that I assume you rail against. And you know, yeah, yeah, well no, we're against all all those policies. What what we want our policies that empower people and treat everybody equally and find ways to give everybody an opportunity to realize our potential. I know that we both love this quote from Maslow, what you can be be? Oh yeah, no, it's it's it's it's

my favorite. I know it's your favorite, and uh, you know, I I'm just wondering, like, how how can we do this? You know, so many people are so focused on their most pressing needs that they don't even see the possibilities with themselves. They can't, you know, they're not even aware that there's more to life, you know, there's more to them. Well, I think I think we get everybody to read you psyche and management or now Maslow and Management, and you know,

I was that was one of the early books I read. It's, as I said to people that have influenced me, two authors that have influenced me the most are are Maslow and Highak. And people find that. But but actually they were after similar things, and so so I was ordering you Psyche in Management continually until after the nineteen seventy three book was printed. It went out of print. So we went to Bertha and got approval to reprint it, and we had we reprinted here. I have a copy. Right.

First of all, you met Bertha. No, no, we didn't. I didn't meet her. But let me see. I can't tell where. Yeah, I just hold it up, pulled it up. I'll take a picture. Yeah I got it. Oh wow. You see where it says. Yes, it says printed by Coke Industries for permission from Bertha G. Masloh. So your your your team was in touch, direct touch with Bertha. Yeah,

it was cool. And that was when whenever the nineteen seventy three printing went out of print, then we contacted her and got approval and printed several thousand of them and distributed to our employees. There's probably so much. You know, we'll grab a beer or something another day. There's probably so much we could nerd out about in that. There's so much in there, you know, in that particular thing.

Because a lot of people haven't read Have you read Metal's Journal's Main chance, Yeah, I've got Oh my gosh, I got them right here. Oh my gosh. Now I haven't read them all, but I've read I've read parts of them. I think me and you are the only ones in the world who have ever actually read those personal diary. What else I got? I got what else you got? I got the the uh, the Further Human Natures Edition first, and Elizabeth found that for me in

a used bookstore. Then I've got Personality and Growth, motivation and personality toward his psychology of being Wow. And you have Transcend. Yeah, I've got Transcend. I've got yours, and and I've got I've also got McGregor The Human Side of Enterprise. That was probably the first one I read. Uh. And then I've got I've got Frankel's book Man Search for Me And as I said, and I wrote in Good Profit. Uh So, Maslow and Anayak are the two

authors that have probably influenced me the most. And then the two what I call social entrepreneurs that influenced me the rossam Frederick Douglas and Frankel. And the reason is that people talk about the hierarchy of needs and you've got to work your way up. Well, it's possible to go directly under the worst conditions to realizing your potential and being contribution motivated. And Frank and Frederick Douglas proved that.

Remember the Frederick Douglas story, or you will know obviously more about Frankel the probably than Frederick Douglas, or maybe not. Frederick Douglas was a slave, right, he was a slave, Yeah, but here he was. He was a slave, a house slave in Baltimore when he was like eight, and he saw the mistress teaching her kids to read, and so he went here and teach me to read. And she said, okay, fine, she was doing it. And the husband came in and says, no, you can't teach him to read. He will be unfit

to be a slave if he learns to read. And so so Frederick Douglas says, well, the reason I'm a slave, I'm enslaved, is not that I'm inferior. I'm kept ignorant, so he ingeniously I won't go in details, taught himself to read. And then when he was sent back to the plantation when he was sixteen, he was allowed to teach Sunday school and he was secretly teaching the other slaves to read. And he says, and here's what he said, at last, I found a way to contribute. Wow, Now

that shows how powerful that is. And then when he escaped and he got his first job, it was moving a pile of cold and he got paid a dollar. He said, I'm not just a free man. I'm a free working man. So I mean this, you know, it brings tears to your eyes. These and then Frankel his experience in the death camps and dedicating himself to helping others rather than himself, and he said, that's what kept me alive because then I had meaning. I had purpose.

That's why when he writes about meaning in your life and the importance, well he's someone to listen to. Well, both of them are. So that's why I pay so much attention to it, because they've lived. And that's our model for all the social entrepreneurs we work with, we partner with, and they're over two hundred of them for just dealing with poverty and other ailments. And those are all people who have either experienced it personally or seen

it first hand. And I mean it blows me away what these people have gone through and how dedicated they are, As Frederick Douglas was not to get vengeance for the abuses against them, but to help prevent others from having gone through what they did. I mean, that is the ultimate in human nature. And so that's what I would hope for, to have a society of meaning where everybody found meaning in their lives. I love it. Can you tell me a little bit about the hashtag give together

now that your organizations stand together, put together? Yes, I mean that was in to deal with with COVID and yeah, we raised I think over one hundred million for that. Can you explain a little bit what it was about? Well, yeah, it was It was that a lot of these programs it took a long time to get the money. It's when people needed to give it to get it now.

And these were these weren't people who who were just didn't want to work or weren't doing These were people who were working their way out of poverty and because of COVID they were knocked back, and so give them enough to give them a leg up. And then and then developed communities where they helped each other, and if somebody needed something in this community, then they would help

each other. So was this whole concept of mutual benefit and dedicating yourself to helping others even though you're in need, and to give them enough resources to be able to do that. So that's what it was based on. But it really got a response. Yeah, I love this idea of empowering everyone to be contribution motivated. And you had

talked about well, you asked this question. Had universities, labs, businesses, and healthcare providers been able to fully contribute from the outset of the pandemic as opposed to distinguishing between essential workers and non essential workers, how much better might the response have been. I thought that was a really really important, powerful question you asked in your book. Yeah. No, absolutely no. And once again this is I mean, for example, no

one was allowed to privately develop the test. Just the government agencies were and their tests failed, so it put us back several months. Just if that had been allowed, I maybe, like the vaccines, these were a bunch of different people, different companies, different researchers doing it on their own. No, they got help, but they were permitted to do it. And so that's what we need a system of empowering everybody because you don't know who's going to do it.

If you think you got all the answers or you're the smart people and everybody else is dumb, then you're dead. That's just why this multiple intelligence theory so grabbed me, because that's what I have found. I mean, I'm dumb in most ways, but I'm pretty smart in an area. And so what are you going to throw me out with the bathwater and throw everybody out who isn't good at whatever whatever's in I am. I want to send you a present. I want to send you a present

after a week. Have you ever seen Have you read my book on Gift did Intelligence Redefined? No? No I haven't. I'm going to send you a copy. So essentially, my theory of personal intelligence is that we need to unlock the potential people by drawing on their dreams and desires and engagement forms of engagement. So I think you're gonna You're gonna just yet another thing for us to nerd out about someday I will, I will if if if you want it, I would all just send you a copy. No,

I'd love to. No, that's that's right down my alley. Here's here's something that that I hadn't picked this up from you psych and management, and I got out of your book. It says, under ideal conditions, and I'll skip the word here in the middle, there would be a mutual selection between the person and his self actualizing work,

his cause, responsibility, call, vocation, task, and so forth. So he said, there is an interaction, a mutual suitability, lack, a good marriage or a good ship, like being designed for each other. That's our goal in the company. And obviously we can't. We don't know, although in some areas we do. We've just helped people find new roles, and some of them are giddy. They're so thrilled with their new role because the whole thing fits them rather than just a part of it fits them, and the results

just are great, both for them and for everybody. Well, let me read you one of my favorites this, so thank you for this. We're gonna start using this quote. See, oh did you read that? Start giving you a commission on our results. Is that a quote from transcend that I know? No, that's yeah, that is oh yeah, that I re quoted, Masle. The title of it is the why of Purpose. That's in your section of purpose. Gotcha? Gotcha? Okay,

let me read it to you. A quote now, okay, And this is a quote why Charles Koch talking about his north star. Well, my north star remains a society and which individuals can realize their potential, a society of mutual benefit, and which individuals succeed by creating value for others. It would be a more just, inclusive, prosperous, and peaceful society than any yet scene. Such a future as within our reach if all of us play our part, if

all of us believe in people. I just want to thank you so much for the amazing contributions you've made in this world. And you said quote at age eighty five, I'm still busy being born, and I want to kind of give the last word to you to kind of tell me, you know, what are you busy being born doing? These days? I am trying to better understand and apply

principles and learn new principles. But mainly I have over one hundred principles I regularly use and I'm constantly trying to find the gaps between what I'm doing and what we as an organization are doing. And I constantly challenge all our people well okay, okay, that's great, and I get criticized for this, Well let's celebrate. Okay, I'll celebrate

here for ten seconds. But now we've got to work on how we do better the gap between what we're doing and what we could be doing to create value for others in a way that benefits all of us, that's mutually beneficial. And so that's and then how do we do that in society? And so that's that's my life's work. And I have a long way to go. So I'm learning every day, trying to learn every day how to do that better and how to be more effective, because as we see in society, we've got a long

way to go. We sure do. And Masel has this phrase virtue pays, So it sounds like maybe a nice way of improving society is to make virtue more of build into the reward structure and the incentive structure of society than just profits. Yeah, I mean, his his concept of senergy is right on. That's what we need is society that rewards senergy. Charles, thank you so much for being on my podcast. This is a real delight for

me to chat with you. Hey, thank you Scott, thanks for having me, and once again thanks even more for writing this book. It was it really thank you got me jazzed up, as you can tell. Thank you thanks for listening to this episode of the Psychology Podcast. If you'd like to react in some way to something you heard, I encourage you to join in the discussion at thusycology podcast dot com or on our YouTube page thus Ecology Podcast.

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