Caroline Webb || How to Have a Good Day During a Global Pandemic

It's great to have Caroline Webb on the podcast. Web is an executive coach, author and speaker who specializes in showing people how to use insights from behavioral science to improve their professional lives. Her book on that topic, How to Have a Good Day, has been published in fourteen languages and more than sixty countries. She's also a senior advisor to McKenzie, where she was previously a partner. Caroline's so excited to talk to you today. It's wonderful to

be here. Thank you. So I decided I'm going to call this pot. I rarely have figured out the title of the podcast until the pot I actually have the interview with the person. But I decided it's just too perfect. I'm going to call it how to have a good day during a global pandemic. Well, there you go. That's what we're all looking for right now, isn't it. Yes, it's because we're all looking for that. It just feels perfect And you're the perfect person to talk about this

with today. So I'm so grateful to have you on the Psychology Podcast. Thank you. So you wrote this book how to Have a Good Day, and you also do executive coaching where you help people have good days, And there's so many different aspects, as you know, to this field. Do you see some kind of rise to the top of the list of all you know, there's a gratitude, there's there's there's a goal setting there. You know, there's so many buzzwords that growth mindset. Everyone's got the words.

Do you do see some that rise to the top that in priority during this really troubling time for so many people? That's a good question. I mean, there's a huge, wonderful talk kit out there, and you know you're wonderful of bringing that to a wide audience. I really appreciate what you do in this in this space. I do think there are three things that I'm seeing time and again coming up right now as being helpful, and frankly that I'm using a lot. I think, you know, we

know that compassion is a very powerful force. We don't always turn it on at the you know, in the heat of the moment. And I think really understanding that the pressures that people are under that that sort of desire to feel secure in the midst of utter chaos.

And it's not just the pandemic, of course, you know, there are all sorts of challenges that we always normally face in our lives, you know, the ups and downs and the uncertainties that we face, but also you know, the environmental challenges that many are facing in their lives.

And to recognize that that kind of stress is going to not bring out the best in most people and or in ourselves, and to understand what our brains do under pressure and to be compassionate about that is the first step to actually being able to be centered in that moment. And then I think there's a real power

in amplifying certainties in the midst of uncertainty. And then I think there's real power in directing attention more consciously, knowing that we don't perceive absolutely everything around us at any given time that we're actually always experiencing a subjective version of reality. What is it we choose to focus on in this moment when things are difficult? So those

are the three things, compassion, certainties, and conscious attention. You can see I've got a little bit of alliteration there to help me remember, Oh, it's great, No, it's great? Does the conscious intention? Does mindfulness help with that? Does it regular mindfulness practice help with that? Well? I think regular mindfulness practice seems to help with just about everything, right, you know, because it does reduce our reactivity to negative stimuli.

You can see that there's more ability to yourself regulate in the face of challenging situations. But I think with directing your attention, I think a lot of people aren't aware that the ingoing mental starting point for us. You know, whatever we have top of mind is going to drive what our brain believes is salient, is relevant enough for

us to notice. So if we're in a bad mood and we go into a conversation, then we are naturally tuned to look out for everything that confirms that we're right to be in a bad mood, and so we utterly capable of focusing on the things that are annoying and completely blanking. A nice comment or a nice suggestion that someone makes that you know, just comes and goes.

We don't even really remember hearing it. And so if you're experiencing a situation right now where you're reading a lot of bad news and you're naturally trying to stay on top of everything, and you know, you're dutifully reading the data, and you're kind of looking at how bad things are, I think the challenge is that then that

attunes us. Given what we know about selective attention and in attentional blindness and confirmation bias and so on, it tunes you to look out for other things that are bad. And so I'm not a believer in, you know, just asserting that life is amazing and therefore it will be.

But I am aware that if you can just direct your attention to something that is positive in the environment around you, just like the nice leaf on the tree that's outside my window, then you can help to reset your perceptual filters to some extent, and that can make all the difference at times like this. Yeah, you know, I'm really interested in individual differences, and I'm fascinated by people who a particular difference and tell me what if you've seen this in your own coaching. There are some

people who are pretty have pretty impenetrable walls. There are people who don't seem to soak up the emotions of others as much. They tend to no matter what comes down they can, they don't let it in so much.

But then there are those who, I would say more people like me, who are very sensitive, you know, in the sense that even if I don't want to, it's really hard for me to not feel the person I'm talking you know, the emotions of the person I'm talking to, like I can't not let it in because it's just my temper It's my biological temperament, you know. But and I know it doesn't need to have to affect me cognitively.

I think that, And I'm just first of all, before I just go on, have you noticed that individual differences, you know, when you're when you've been doing coaching. I have, I think, I think though, when you look at the data on emotional contagion, you know, people are more similar than they perhaps think. You know, we do see that contagion, you know, the mirroring of neural activity very readily when

one person is expressing emotion. It's remarkable how much that transmits, even online, even in the kind of conversation that we have. Now there's there's interesting research on remote teams that suggest that even when they're only communicating by text, you can see emotions seep out and cross boundaries and spread across a team. So I think, I think we're very leaky

as humans. But yes, I think you know, you have to know yourself and know that if you are especially susceptible, then you know, just know that what's around you is going to soak into your skin and into your mind, and that it's it's worth being very deliberate about taking a break and redirecting your attention to something more positive without being hokey about it. But just you know, what is there that I can notice around me or notice, you know, as I think about the day that I've had,

that would help to reset a little? What do you what advice do you have in this particular moment in America? I know I hear something other than an American accent coming out of your mouth, but you probably are very

aware with America's issues right now. Yeah, and I'm an American resident, so and you are an American resident, What advice do you have for people that are so frustrated and quite frankly fed up with a lot of injustices they feel like they're experiencing in the world in our country who aren't maybe inhabiting as as Abraham Masl my one of my mentors almost said, but you know, he called it the d realm of human existence versus you know,

the deficiency realm where you know your your whole world narrows, it's hard to see the beauty around you, you know, it's hard to just simply redirect, versus the be realm, which is what it sounds like. You're talking about being realm of human existence, where you know, you don't try to change the world, and you're you admire the beauty of the things without you know, trying to change it, and you love be love for humanity. But for some people it's it's not easy to have so much love

for someone who's beating you down. So, yeah, I just would love to hear some of your thoughts about this moment. Yeah, it's a good question. It's funny. It was reading your book that made me realize how much Maslow is thinking on this has permeated the work that many of us are doing in the space of well being and resilience. You know, I talk a lot about getting people out of or getting yourself out of defensive mode and into discovery mode, which is an analogous to the idea of

shifting from a deficiency focus to a being focused. And I do think that one thing is coming up a lot right now and that I'm using and that I'm helping other people use is a focus on what you can control and acceptance of what you can't. Now. Of course, that's hardly new. There's not new knowledge that is you know,

that is old wisdom. You know, when you think about the fact that we all crave a feeling of competence and autonomy, it's important for our self esteem or sense of self worth to feel that we have a degree of ownership in what's happening to us. Sometimes when we are in a very very uncertain state, we focus completely on what we can't control, and actually we forget that there are there's quite a bit that we can control.

And it may be that we have no idea what's going to happen next politically, environmentally, in health terms, but we can focus on how we choose to live today. What are the choices we make today. We can choose to decide to go for a walk. Now you might say, actually, you can't even do that because the air quality is terrible and maybe you're under under quarantine. I think we're very very conscious of the constraints. Okay, So knowing yourself, what do you know gives you a little bit of

a boost? What is it that gives you a sense of what is it that gives you a sense of pleasure? And for me, comedy is really really powerful. Okay, So I can be very deliberate about bringing some comedy into my day. I can, you know, I can watch things that I know will reliably make me laugh. I know that that will feedback through the you know, the sort of strange synchronicity of mind and body. I know that the sheer fact of laughing forces me to take dia

fromatic breaths then calms me. And the point is that there are these sort of very deliberate things we can do to shape our lives even when we are feeling like there's nothing that we control. And that's that's that's

the thread that I'm pulling. You know, whether it's a business leader trying to figure out how to create some sense of what's going to happen, even if they don't know what the outcome is, they can talk about, well the process is to figuring out the outcome, or whether it's you know, a working parent at home just tearing their hair out with trying to figure out schooling, to focus on, Okay, well, what can I do in the next half an hour that I think is going to

be a positive step. That's the kind of conversation that's coming up again and again right now. You told me back backstage that sometimes people imagine that because you're right about having good days and building a good life, that you look that you must look through the road, walk through look at the world through a rose tinted spectacles,

you know. And then you also tell me others I think you should be more bullish, like how to have a great, awesome day every day, exactlation point esclamation point esclamation point. But your approach, your very measured approach. I'm listening to you. Seems like you like to look with quirity and equanimity at both what's hard on what's possible. So is this sort of a realistic form of optimism. Yes, exactly,

that's you know, it's funny. You know, there are some things, of course, we develop as we as we get older, and you know, we we hopefully accumulate wisdom as we experience the world. But there's something really strange about this, you know. I go back to my There was a year book when I was seventeen, and I wrote that my life philosophy was realistic idealism, and I it's interesting to see that still really at the center of everything I do. I mean, I now call it really realistic optimism.

I think, you know, I'm optimistic about human nature. I'm optimistic about the opportunities we have to make a difference in our own lives and in other people's lives. I'm also realistic about the fact that there is also luck, and there are challenges, and you know, shit happens, and so I'm definitely you know, treading this middle ground all the time and helping people see what's possible while acknowledging

what's tough. So yeah, that's very central to my central to everything that I do in my coaching and in my writing. Actually, you know Abraham as well. Actually not to keep bringing him up over and over again. But my listeners of the Psychology podcast are no stranger to me bringing him up over and over again. But he called himself a realistic optimist, so we called himself so, you know, and I like to think of myself similarly, and so we're all in this kind of me you Abraham,

as kind of this realistic optimism club. There are a lot of people in this field who are just straight up happy, happy, happy. I mean, there are people who like that, and there are people who love people like that. So maybe you know, it's like, look, the world's a big place. What resonates with you, what style resonates with you. I'm much more in my life in interested understanding than condemning.

So that's fine. You know, if there are people who they all go to their happy, happy, happy conferences together and they're all happy, happy, happy together, go be amongst yourselves. Leave me alone, absolutely, now, I think that's right. You know, different strokes and all that. I am definitely not going

to be. You know, there are some people who are going to find me too too grounded and too real realistic, you know, or too I mean, they would see it perhaps as sort of being too not being bold enough I do remember I was speaking at a big conference thousands of thousands of attendees, and the green room was a fun place to hang out. There were lots of different types of speakers there, and that was really evident there.

There was a speaker there who was what you would call, I guess, a motivational speaker, and you know, she had a certain story and she was very excited to say that. Her message was that you know, you could have anything you wanted, you just had to believe in it hard enough. And I said, I must admit I normally I just sort of, you know not and say sort of centered

at the moment. But then you know, at that time, Aleppo was being bombed in Syria, and it was I was very conscious of the news, and I said, well, I'm not sure the kids in Aleppo would agree, And so you know, there you are. It's you know, we've got this. You and I believe that perhaps where you're born does have an effect on what your chances are in life. We also believe that what you can do with what you've been given is often more than we realize. So I think it's possible to have both things in

your mind. I think that's right, we don't. It's not either or I do get that art these individuals who are suffering, it's not like they need to wait till some magical moment where there's zero suffering, or any of us, None of us need to wait till there's this magical moment that probably will never come where we're just everything is just zero percent suffering to work towards beauty and connection and the things that will help lift us out

of these psychological states. And they're certainly environment bearriers. But you know, as I say to people, if Victor Frankel could find some joy in the concentration camps, then you sure as hell ken as well. I was just about to say that. And also, you know, when you think about the Stockdale paradox, Yeah, you know, the Walter Stockdale,

the prisoner of war, same message. You know that he noticed that the people who survived being in a concentration camp with those who were able to both hold the possibility of release alongside recognizing the reality of what was going on, and that if you were purely optimistic or purely pessimistic, that they were the people around him that

he noticed not doing so well. And so yes, I you know, absolutely, And you know, I regret having kind of, you know, reacted by saying what I've said about Syria, because I think, you know, she has a very very important message, and the message of possibility and hope is a really really powerful one. I think that there are, as you say, very different ways to get that out in the world. And you know, I think it's great that they're prep different different styles and different messages that

take that message out in the world. I love that. Oh good, We're like on some more pages. Something that connection you made to me in one of our discussions is that it was with the field of mental contrasting, which is a hot, hot area of inquiry in our field. Could you maybe talk all about what mental contrasting is and how that can help some people have a good day right now during global pandemic. Well, it's a practical application of everything we've just been talking about, isn't it.

The work driven significantly by Gabrielle Ettingen and Peter Goal, with the idea being that we know that having a goal makes you much more likely to move forward. That's you know, basic neurobiology. We also know that people can get derailed really easily when something doesn't go as intended, and so research has shown again and again quite a

range of different settings. As you know that if you are both clear eyed about your goal and your dream, your vision, your hope, and also think about the realism of the challenges you're going to face and ideally then not just that which is sort of you know, realistic optimism or mental contrasting of the idea with the challenges, but then you also think about implementation intentions. So you think, okay, well that when that roadbump and I encounter each other,

this is what I will do. I mean, so you know you have this when then plan when this happens, then I will do And that really helps you. I mean, you know, there's a kind of non pandemic demic keee kind of example, which is if you want to exercise, or there's something that you want to maybe sort of you want to practice your French, then having a queue for what that is, you know, whether it's the sneakers by the side of the bed or you know, that

is helpful. But it's even more helpful if you can say, when it's raining and I don't feel like leaving the house, then I will grab my umbrella and you know, just the shier fact of having that plan makes a dramatic difference to your chances of actually leaving the house and getting getting the thing done that you said you wanted to do. I have sabotaging if then plans such as if I have an if it then plan that becomes activated that says, go to the gym now, then eat chocolate.

Has anywhere ever brought that case up to you and about having meta self sabotaging if then plans, Well, I think, you know, let's go back to compassion. Maybe that's fine, Maybe it's okay, you know, maybe it's okay to say, you know what, I'm going to go to the gym. It's going to be fantastic. I'm going to feel really energized, and I really love chocolate, and I'm going to you know, enjoy that. So I'm not you know, I don't judge.

I think whatever works, And you know, chocolate is fantastic, let's be honest, it is, but doesn't work in terms of my of health. Yeah, well, you know, then there's a kind of okay. When I have a craving for chocolate, Then what is your alternative plan? I mean, do you have is there a little routine, little sub routine that you could launch at that moment. Do you think the best thing for me is to not even open the

door at all? So I just don't have any chocolate around. Yeah, I just I've learned from me the best thing to curb something is to just not have the stimulus anywhere anywhere in your in sight. And that's I mean, that's another strand that's emerged from the research. Isn't it that you know, you're much better off trying to change your

environment than trying to change what's inside your head. It's just, you know, it's easier, you make it easier to take to make automatically good choices if you make it if you change your environment. So I yeah, I think that's very smart. I think well done. That's excellent. Yay. A lot of self help books have this kind of attitude of you can have anything you want if you just believe in it enough. Now, books like The Secret and stuff. What's wrong with that? Is that not grounded in science.

There's a kernel of truth, right, you know, I touched on it earlier on It's about selective attention. It's the fact that if you whatever is top of mind, will help to tell your brain what is salient enough for you to be consciously aware of. You're recognizing we can only process a certain amount of information at any given time. So yes, if you decide that actually I have an experience experience that you know, I'm sure could be described

in secret like terms. I remember when I got certified as a coach, I was actually really just doing it as an add on to my work, as I was a partner at McKinsey, the consulting firm, and I was doing a lot of organizational change work, and I thought it would be really helpful if I could be really more skilled in talking to the leaders about how to you know, be their best self so that they could, you know, create great environments for other people. So, you know,

I thought it would just be an add on. And then I did this course and I thought, oh no, this is a bit tricky, because actually it turns out I love this, this is what I'm born to do. And now what am I going to do? I don't want to give up my you know, nice job with my lovely colleagues, but I'm clearly not going to be able to be a partner at McKinsey and be an

executive coach at the same time. But you know, I thought, okay, well, what have I got to lose If I'm going to leave, then I will see what I can do to you know, tell as many people as I can that this is what I want to do. I want to be I want to do more coaching. And it was really ridiculous.

I mean I didn't do a vision board, but by telling everybody what I wanted and being alert and having it top of mind and therefore noticing what was around me as a possibility, within three weeks I was starting to bring coaching into my who's actually a colleague who said, could you teach all of our younger colleagues how to be better coaches? And I thought, oh, okay, yes. And then three weeks after that, another colleague came to me and said, oh, you know, I've got you know, this

executive team of eighteen people. It's far too big. You know. He was one of the only other certified coaches in the firm, and he said, well, what if we we then split this and I'll take nine of them and you take nine of them. And then suddenly I had almost a full coaching practice. There's definitely a version of the story, which is I just had to believe and

then it was real. But that's not really true. I mean what happened was that, you know, I was conscious of this, so I looked out for opportunities that were otherwise missed, and I also told everybody this is what I was trying to do. So did I attract that to me? I mean kind of. But if I'd said to myself, frankly, you know, if you go into a conversation with someone you're expecting them to be a jerk, the same mechanism means that you will also, you know,

notice that everything that they say is annoying. So this mechanism is in play. But the idea that you can just change everything by dreaming of it is patently unclear. I mean, if I had said I would love to be an astronaut, which is what I wanted to do when I was fourteen, I wanted to work in Grand Control. I didn't actually want to be an astronaut. I wanted to work in NASA Grand Control, which is a British school girl at a state school, was a sort of

surprising goal. I was really really into physics. Yeah, so you know, if I had said, if I'd done this course and then decided I wanted to be an astronaut, would would it just been, you know, a question of believing? No, of course not. So, you know, I think the idea that it's just belief and you know, you just have to be sort of firm and strong enough in your belief is patently not right. But I think, you know, being clear on what you want and being deliberate in

where you put your attention. Sure, you know that there is some truth in that. Yeah, there is a greater truth there. You know. It shows the importance of setting intentions and really believing that what you want to do is possible. That seems to be the key there is is just even like deluding yourself sometimes can be a helpful start, but in the long run, delusion doesn't tend to fare out well. Right, you've got to pay attention to you've got to pivot, you've got to notice what's working,

and you've got to adapt. And you know, that's that's what I see in the professionals who are most most thoughtful and successful in their lives in these challenging times is that they are not shy, They're not egotistical about perhaps being wrong about what they thought was going to happen. They're able to say, you know what, huh okay, I add this really strong idea and it turns out not to be true. So I guess we'll do something else, and let's talk about what that might be. Well, this

is cool. Let's double click on executive coaching and unpack that more. Because I just entered the world of coaching myself, just join the Flow Research Collective and I'm now a flow coach and so this is a new world for me and I'm loving it. And it's it's almost like

I'm hooked. I'm hooked. It's there's something, there's something really with my dope, mean or serotonin, something activated when I feel like I'm helping a person have a great insight about themselves, or I'm helping them cut out things once and for all that they've wanted to cut out. Basically, I like watching people do all the things that I don't necessarily do myself. It's inspirational to me to help someone. It's funny. I think I'm better at helping others sometimes

that I am helping myself. But anyway, that's a whole other story for psychoanalysis. Yes, we'll talk about that next time. But yeah, I just I really i'd love to because I'm hooked on this coach, this coaching the end. I was very skeptical of it before, you know, I skeptical of it because I did see some what they call themselves positive psychology coaches, and some positive psychology coaches made me cringe, to be quite frank, because they weren't grounded

in science whatsoever. And I mean they didn't have like PhDs or even's degrees, and they maybe took one psychology class in college and then and then they sort of I'm a certified coach, you know, with this dodgy organization that gave you one hour of training. So as you can see, that's why I was skeptical. But there's so much in the coaching world, so many people that I'm noticing are pretty awesome and legit, and so I'm not

as skeptical anymore. So Yeah, so let's double let's double quick on on, let's double quick on what you do, because maybe that's I'm a focuser. Maybe I could aspire to an executive coach someday. Well, it's still an emergent discipline. I mean, it's only been around for a few decades. Interestingly, I think really the roots of modern professional and life coaching came out of E. Salin, you know, and that

the Human Potential movement, certainly in Europe. John Whitmore was absolutely central to bring humanistic psychology into a form of support that you know, we now call we call coaching.

And you know this idea that if therapy is about mental health and is about helping to address pathologies, coaching is about, you know, taking someone who's fundamentally mentally well and helping them be their best self and you know, help them remove barriers to being their best self and more often, and that is very satisfying work because you're helping someone on the kind of journey that you talk about, you know, which is a journey towards self actualization and transcendence.

Right And in the professional realm, you know, you hear terms like leadership coaching. Actually, you know, I work a lot with leaders, not always you know, big corporate leaders. You know, people can be leaders of all sorts, at all ages, in all sorts of informal ways. So the work that I do focus is a lot on helping

people who are trying to move a system. So I coach, for example, someone who is trying to figure out a way to get funding to support African students who often don't get a student funding because people perceive them to be two poor risks, and actually the evidence is very clear that they are actually fantastic bet for a bank to lend to. And so there is this young entrepreneur who I helped to think about, you know, how howes she build a system around this? Howes she build an

organization around this? And you know, she's got a very small organization. At the other end of the scale, I will coach a CEO of a very large company who is trying to do, you know, something interesting on a global level. There's more commonality than you might think. You know, in both cases. You have to help them manage themselves under pressure and help them find their path, and you have to help them get the best out of the people around them. And that is just such privileged, wonderful work.

I just love it, I really do. Where what's your training to get there? Like, what is your background? Do you have a PhD? Psychology? I don't. I mean there's a part of me that sort of I think, oh gosh, you know, when you when you talk about people who aren't you know, don't have phes at need a, it's probably not interesting to anyone else. But as it happens, I had so I did not know that psychology even existed. I was full on on physics, math kind of, you know,

that was the path, you know, going to astrophysics. And then I had to take class in economics because of the way that the curriculum, that the schedule works, just you know, just how it worked out, and it blew my mind. I just thought, oh my gosh, this idea that you could be rigorous about human potential and structured and thinking about human motivations. Wow. Wow. And that was it. That was I was sixteen, and so that was that

was a complete, a complete pivot. And and then I, you know, was was working towards being a professional I was an economist, a professional economist for the first decade of my career. And what happened over time was that I realized I wasn't really very wild about academic economics.

I found the orthodoxy and economics back back then the eighties and nineties, behavioral revolution hadn't really broken and in the end, I was two years into you know, working towards a DFIL at Oxford, and I said, I can't. I just this is you know, I was missing the psychology I didn't even know I needed and wanted. So in the end, you know, I had to think about what will be a creative way to get back to my original interest, which was a sort of human science.

And I know it's not the most obvious path, but then you know, I ended up going to going into management consulting, thinking well, at least I can work on organizational change and leadership here. And then you know, did my coaching certification, did some additional courses in psychology and EUROSIE it's big. Also did ACT I read a lot.

I read a lot. And you know, if you have an understanding of statistics and also some humility about what you can and can't understand, then you know, and you I sort of developed a little bit of a panel of wonderful scientists to go to and say, well, hang on, how does this work? And so I would you know, have a couple of neuroscientists that I would go to and say, well, you know, tell me again, like how does this So the Amigadola really isn't the fit center now, right,

So it's an attentional signaling kind of device. Okay, Right, So you know it's over the years, I'm just very honest about what I do and don't know, and what I can and can't say, And in a way, you know, I'm in this sort of translational space between between the research and the practice, and I hope it helps me to make the science simple enough for people. But I'm very, very, very attenive to knowing my boundaries and what I can

and can't say. Well, you've a lovely attitude, and I do want to clarify I've noticed that there's not a very strong correlation between the high level degree you have in your coaching effectiveness and some of the greatest coaches are those that, in a lot of ways are very well read, you know, of a lot of the science. But I do have a critical lens towards those who are coaches that aren't interested in science whatsoever. That's I feel like, that's what I wanted to zoom in on.

Was that point. You know, have encountered some who are just so supremely confident that whatever enters their head is brilliant, no need to challenge anything that's their head because it's just everything. You know, I know the way for everyone, so and in my writing, I'm just attentive to replication issues. There were several I mean, I had several filters for what I put in the book and I have a

good day. One of them was do I do this myself? Second, you know, is this something I've seen work across many different cultures and situations. And third was, you know, is the science here not just cute or fun but kind of distinctly, you know, robustly replicable. And there were some areas where I got early, early notice that there were some issues, and I'm very glad that I actually decided

to take them out of the book. You know that there was sort of the big debate on willpower that was just starting to break, debates on some of the some of the mind body loop material, for example, there were a number of areas where I was close enough to the research that I was able to say, you know what, I'm not sure where this is going. So I'm going to going to be careful about, you know, what I say about this right now, knowing that I

myself are not at the cutting edge. So and I mean, it must feel really good knowing that your work is being taught at top institutions around the country. My friend and colleague, Jonathan Height and I sat in on his class once at NYU Business School, and he's gone on and on about Caroline Webbs. Did you all read the chapter Assignment of the Week Caroline Caroline Webb's book? And you know it must there must be a good feeling there knowing that you're very well respected amongst the top

people in the field of positive psychology. Well, thank you, Yeah, I mean it's you know that I do love that John teaches that class you know around you know, with with with my book sort of so so munch at the center of it on. One of one of my favorite things is actually joining the last class of that semester and then taking questions from all the students say yes, but is this really possible? Can you really? Can you really do this? Really do that? I mean honestly really?

And then you know, we talk about realistic optimism, what you can do within constraints. So you've worked with all different sorts of populations. And another thing I like about your approach, we's not only do you respect the science and try to read about the science, but you don't try to dumb it down. You you don't want to insult the intelligence of the people you're working with. Now, you told me backstage that you've worked with prison officers

on Rakers Island. Well, i mean, first of all, what was that experience, Like, were you nervous at all? Like are you are you nerves of steel over there, Caroline Web Yes, No, I'm not. I'm in I'm a normal person. You know. It's it's a really strange place. You know, you go across across the bridge to the island and it's a very it's a very stark location. And the you know, I was working in this in the UK would call them porter cabins. I don't know what the

shipping container, type of you know, type of situation. So you know, I had all of these materials which are clearly not going to work, you know, in this setting. But yeah, I mean I've seen I've worked with very broad populations that What is so interesting is that the same ideas. I mean, we're all human, we all have

the same hardware and software inside. I think the idea of helping people understand that is normal to feel stressed, and that it's to I help them understand the base of what's going on, the fact that there's depression in the activity in prefrontal cortex when you feel that, you know you're you're dealing with uncomfortable, negative stress, and that that is going to have an effect on your capacity

for reasoning and self control and forward thinking. And then you know, normalizing that feeling of stress and loss of self in that moment, and then giving them helping them discover a few simple techniques to get back to who they are and to you know, to reduce the state of alert, and then to shift them towards something more generative,

that is work that crosses boundaries. And there was no yes, these were These were you know, people who didn't have more than a high school education in some cases, you know, maybe not even that, but there was no issue with their ability to rep their head around this adult. It was very satisfying to see that you're inspiring me to really deepen my own culturing practice. So I'm I'm getting into it. I'm really get I feel like I'm entering this new stage in my life. So it's it's oh fantastic.

I think anybody will be very very lucky to spend time with you thank you helping them on their thank you. It's I was so apprehensive. I was like, what can I possibly offer like an Olympic athlete? Do you know what I mean? Like, what's Scott very coffie? But I think I sell myself short sometimes because I start to have this conversation and they're like, wow, that's really insightful. You know, I can apply that to my life, and I'm like, wow, maybe maybe I can make a change.

You know. It's like you know, once I started doing it, I was like, wow, I can do that. I can do this. You know, yes, you absolutely can. You're a great listener and you've got great presence when you're with people. You know that you look, you look for what you can see and what they're saying that you can build on. And actually, you know, people don't get a lot of that in their lives, of someone truly properly paying attention

to them. You know, sometimes when I'm teaching people about you know, you can call it x dream listening or the power of actually properly paying attention. There was one time I was doing this with a bunch of partners of a private equity firm who were trying to figure out how to be more supportive to the CEOs of the companies that they owned. And so we were talking about conversational quality and presence, you know, to help people

feel really supported. And when I was demonstrating the technique of properly paying attention and just saying, so, that's interesting, what do you mean by that? And to say more about that, just the kind of basics, they thought I was flirting because it was the only frame of reference that they had someone paying as much attention to another human being. And it's the basis of coaching skill is that quality of attention. And you definitely have that. I

mean so much to me. Thank you, Thank you were saying that, I'm definitely fired up. I'm definitely fired up. It's like a compound interest, you know, just even one or two, you start to see, oh my gosh, you can really change people's lives. Much more than writing peer reviewed academic journal article, waiting a year for it to get published and then four people in your field would

read it. I'm addicted more to like actually helping a human Yeah, I mean, you know, I couldn't do the work that I do without all the people around the world pushing the envelope slightly in this piece of You know, I was having a little dialogue yesterday with someone who's doing some work on the peak and effect, and yeah, you know, I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful to this post doc for doing this work. I mean, thank goodness.

And then I can say, Okay, well, you know what does that mean for the advice that I gave about how people end their days? You know, and it's you need both, you need and if you can do both in a life, then that's wonderful. Embrace both. Yeah, awesome. I can't wait to hear more. Yeah, no, I agree. I mean, I've devoted past twenty years of my life to rigorous, peer reviewed scientific articles and all that. So maybe it's just I'm just now I'm lit up for

a new chapter. So I'd like to end this amazing interview having here today with a little bit of a personal thing about you, because you're you don't often talk about your immense creativity, but you've got it going on.

You've got it going on, Caroline Web. So here's some recent highlights you've recently you sang at Carnegie Hall with your choir half a dozen times, danced in the closing ceremony of the London twenty twelve Olympics, made crazy costumes with spare fabric, safety pins and spray paint for burning man and many other things. People just don't know this about you, Well they do now, yeah, they do, you do. A very large number of people will now know this

about you. Hello ever funny, Yeah, I mean it's funny. I think you know, as a kid I was, I was very, very tuned into all of that, and then I drifted away from it. I got into my very analytical work, and I mean music was always the common threat. I will say that was always you know, I was in bands from the age of eleven, not very good ones, let's be clear. But but yeah, you know, singing for me, I was a pianist until you know, up to a certain age. But you know, singing has been the thing

that's really taken over for me. But I think what what for me has emerged is just it's one of the best places to go for that state of total immersion and absorption and that feeling of losing yourself. It's sort of my meditative practice. And you know, let's be honest, you know, I'm at my stage of life. Some of that, you know, artistry comes through d I y, you know, through standing a piece of wood until it's just exactly,

you know, exactly the right the right shape. But yeah, and I've I've the over the years, I've brought more and more of that have been braver and boulder and

bringing that into my practice. So I have seen how much you can unlock someone's insight and connection with people around them by I mean even just getting them to pick an image to be a prop to telling their life story rather than just doing it purely through words, or getting them to model their vision for where they want to be in ten years time, to get them to you know, model it using children's clay, and to see what emerges from that. The different quality of conversation

is really special, truly special. And I imagine in your coaching you help you help people with their exploration and creativity. Yeah, and of course you're not very dry about it. I say, well, this is going to you know, engage different parts of your brain. You will help you will see different insights. And you know I'm not I try to make sure it's not woo wu. They understand that there's a process there, that's that's that's going to take them to a different place.

But yeah, you know, I'm very lucky to I'm very happy to say that people have been willing to go there, you know, especially you know, with a smile on their face. Well s b K. That's why for myself and third person SBK has wanted to for a very long time to be a burner, to be a burning man. So when this goal pandemic's over, maybe me and you can can part it up in burning Man and we can. The things that I do is to help people go for the first time, So I'm I have spreadsheets, I

have lists, I guess. So it is actually something every year, even when I don't go, I try to kind of support two or three new people going. So you know, I'm happy to that's awesome. I have a lot of friends who are whatever the word is, burners whatever, burners, and they're like Scott, like, how are you not a burner?

You know, and it's like, okay, well, let's not have a goal pandemic, you know, And yeah, I mean I think you know what's so wonderful about Burning Man is the feeling of not being you're in a non judgmental environment. And you know, there was a piece I wrote for Behavioral Scientist. Yeah, I don't know. It was about a year ago. Molly Crockett, the neuroscientists and I good friends, and you know, we think a lot about the behavioral

science that sits behind mind. Why burning Man is quite a you know, is a very interesting experience and a lot of the things that we know about living a good life are present there. And you know, a lot of people who just focus on the sort of you know, some press reports about hedonism are very surprised to hear about this. No. Actually, you know, the collective endeavor that building something together, the sense of gifting, the feeling of

not being judged, all of this. You know, it's a very interesting petri dish for people like give and me who are interested in thriving. Ellieah, that's for sure. Hey, Carolyn, thank you so much for being on a psychology podcast and helping all my listeners as well as me have a good day. Wonderful to be here. Thank you so much for a wonderful conversation. Thanks for listening to this

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