Becky Kennedy || Good Parenting

with an emphasis on anxiety and resilience. Doctor Becky received her BA in psychology and Human Development from Duke University and her PhD in clinical psychology from Columbia University. Her latest book is called Good Inside, a Guide to Becoming the Parent you want to be. In this episode, I talked to doctor Becky about good parenting. Raising children is no easy task. As a mom herself, doctor Becky knows

what that's like. Her parenting philosophy revolves around seeing the good inside every child and seeing the sturdy leader in every parent. She shares action advice and how to repair emotional connection after conflict, how to reduce shame, and how we can break unhealthy generational patterns. We also touch on the topics of genetics, resilience, attachment, and self care. Doctor Becky is awesome. I really enjoy chrying that and I really like her no nonsense manner in which she gives

advice to parents. It's not only no nonsense, but it's also quite compassionate. She really has compassion for everyone involved in parent and children and believes in the ultimate good of all people. So, without further ado, I bring you doctor Becky. Hi. So you're a critical psychologist and you get your PhD from Colombia. Very nice, very nice. Can I ask who your advisor was? Yeah? My advisor was

Lena Verdeli. Okay, and what was your specialization? Then? Well, I actually started with Sonia Luther under kind of resilience and adolescents and then ended up shifting she left it was the whole thing. So then worked with Lenna around evident spaced kind of the different between like evidence based and non evidence based kind of focused psychology PhD programs. Nice. Nice, No, I'm a professor Columbia now, but I but I'm my PhD at Yale. Nice But yeah, yeah, okay, So at

what point did you you know? Because you've really carved out quite a niche for yourself. I mean, you're you're sure so popular my ego. Thanks, I mean on Instagram, I was like, oh, how many followers does she have? Over a million? You're like justin Bieber's status in the in the parenting world. Now, but how did that happen? Like, can you just tell me a little bit more about like your trajectory to to the to the point of

where you are today in this what you study. Yeah, I guess it all starts when I realized, you know, you can make a living or you know, a career out of getting to know people. Essentially. It was always my favorite thing to do, ask a lot of questions,

learn about their face, family. And so I went to Columbia for my PhD and had just so many amazing advisors, so much amazing clinical experience, working in patient hospital, working in forensic at Bellevue, working with kids, doing play therapy, working with you know, intensive personality disorder Institute, so many different things. And then I finished at Columbia and did my post doc at Columbia's Counseling Center just across the street, where I really loved that kind of college aged kind

of population, in grad school population. And soon after that, I got I got pregnant during my postdoc year, and so I finished my post doc in August and had my first son that following October. So I and then after that I realized, you know, I knew I wanted to go back to work, and I wanted to have a private practice to have some flexibility and kind of create some deep relationships, and so opened up a private practice.

And then you know, my kind of interest in working with the and intensive psychotherapy started to really overlap with my interest in like everything that was happening as a parent, because what I thought was just so interesting, Oh, like being a parent is so hard, Like I should know about this, I do know about this, and yet it's

not always connecting the dots for me. And so I loved I loved working with parents and kind of doing more active almost some parent coaching, and so went to get more training at that point and kind of signed up for this fairly like behavioral behavior focused, evidence based parenting program and I did it, and honestly, at first I loved it. I really really did, just like lit

up all the logical linear parts of my brain. And then really it was one day in my private practice I was like in the middle of a session with someone giving them advice about how to do it now, and I seriously I stopped. I was like, you know what, I was just like, I don't believe what I'm saying to you. They were like horrified, and I was like, I just I heear myself say something I wouldn't do

with my own kid. And I haven't figured it out yet because I've taken this program and like in some part of me believes this, but like it doesn't feel right coming out. And then it really led to me thinking about like all these ways I work with adults and intensive psychotherapy and the ways that they're rewiring some

of their earliest patterns. And I kept thinking like, well, what if my parent coaching philosophy and approach and strategies were actually just in line with my like deep psychotherapy approach and practice and strategies, except that maybe like adapted to be reversed, engineered to kids, you know, instead of to thirty forty fifty year old adults. And that just

got me started. And then I literally kind of like randomly started an Instagram account and that was, you know, a little over two years ago, and here I am now talking to you on your awesome podcast. Oh thank you. So it just it just clicked with so many parents. I mean, you have so many ideas that are so resonant. Is there maybe a common thread that you can think that really rethinks the way we raise our children? Yeah?

You know, I've been asked that question a bunch of times, and I really mean, this is the first time I think I have a good answer, because you know, it just takes a while to like, yeah, what your thoughts.

I'm modern good diving, you know what it is? I really think the good inside approach here's like the dirty little secret is is it honors and respects and helps a parent like as much, maybe even a little more sometimes than it honors and respects and helps develop a child like And if I think about parenting, you know something we hear from a lot of parents, especially the moms. Although I'm biased because more moms are kind of part of our membership, you know than fathers. Is I'm losing myself.

I'm depleted. I'm so I care about my kids. I love my kids so much. Maybe I'm a work inside the home parent and like these other parts of me, like they're neglected, Like I haven't seen them in years, and not surprisingly, they you know, gream out in the form of mom rage ever every you know so often, and I feel like one of the things with good inside is it's like, oh, I'm getting quote parenting advice

and yeah, like someone said this to me. They're like, you capture our attention through tricky situations with our kids. But people, I think what I hear over numbers, they're like, I have grown as a person, like so much. Then I actually am able to be more grounded and more confident and more sturdy, so I can actually use the strategies for my kids because before that I learned them, but then in the moment they never came to me.

But like the biggest benefit to me is like I feel like I have healed and grown in this journey. And I think it's really a parenting approach that sees a parent and helps a parent and helps really bring out the sturdy leader inside of a parent. It's really not only something kind of like everything else that's for your kid. It just makes so much sense why that would resonate with the parents. I mean, they're exhausted, as you say, and I think like, along with that, right,

there's like this duality. I think that, like I see a lot so it's like this is as much for you as your kid. And also I think a lot of models around kind of parenting, Like there's this inherent choice. Okay, either I like do kind of prioritize my needs and I end up interacting with my kid in a way

that I feel firm, I feel like authoritarian. I don't like the version of myself, Like I've never met a parent who's like, I love giving time out, so I feel so great after I send my kid to their room or I love threatening them, and I really love taking away TV. I just feel so empowered, Like I've never heard that, Like it feels shitty to everyone, but they're like, I have to get my kid to be

hate right. So you're like, okay, I don't even think it does get that, but at least in theory, you're like I'm being firm, I'm being hard, I'm being this like authority, but it doesn't feel good, and you also know you're like not actually creating a meaningful relationship with your kid. So that's one side, and then there's this other side that's like some version of like feel the

feelings just like the feelings are okay. I think a lot of parents are like oh okay, but like when we're in a grocery store and my kids like feeling the feelings and like knocking over all the boxes of cereal, Like what do I do? How does that help? Right? Exactly?

So it's either like I otter my kids feelings and I maybe am building connection with them, or I like put up these kind of authoritarian controlled kind of approach in which I'm like only focused on behavior, but there I don't really feel connected to my kids, and I really don't feel that connected to myself, right, So it feels like there's been this choice, and I think like every one of our strategies that comes from like a really grounded theoretical framework, like gives parents the ability to

embody their sturdy leadership, embody their authority. That doesn't mean being mean, it's you're like embodying your authority the way the leader of a company would embody their authority while building stronger connections to their kids. Like both are happening, and I know, like me too, Like oh good, Like I'm glad there's something between those two kind of like really not that compelling buckets, and I think that's also really striking a chord with parents. Yeah, you really are

combining two things that needed combining. Start integrating is a better word for it. So do you draw on the science of positive psychology at all? Do you draw on the science of resiliency? It sounds like you're picking things that were in the adult literature and you're applying it to parenting, which is quite novel. So if you talk

a little more about where you draw from, definitely. So if I think, if I think about this period when I really like had this, I don't know, it was like it was too early to be a midlife crisis, but it felt like that. It's like, wait, I don't believe in all these parents. I think, what do I believe in? Who am I? You know? And I was like, okay, to start with one thing, I know, like, what do

I know? Well, I feel pretty good about how I work with adults, and I think my framework for all the work I did with adults was something like this.

Adults come in with a set of symptoms. They call them problems, right, And I really do believe symptoms in adulthood were all adaptations in childhood, like That's why I don't love diagnosis, because I feel like we pathologize a presentation in an adult that was a set of adaptations, Like I feel like someone internally in the body is like hello, I was trying to help you, you know.

And so people, we wire in a certain way in our childhood, right, We develop patterned ways of thinking, and we develop, you know, procedural knowledge, all in an attempt to adapt and thrive in our earliest environment. Then fast forward twenty years. Well, guess what, Probably those ways are not actually adaptive in the general world, but understandably and in my mind, with gratitude, our body is hesitant to let go of the things that were put in place

to protect us. So that really drives my work. Then how did I work with adults after that? Like to me as a combination of a lot of things, because a lot of people who know me will be like, oh, you're a CBT therapist. You know, I'm not a s CBT therapist. I've never been trained really formally in CBT.

I'm a very practical therapist. I use a lot of very practical strategies because I think people need to bridge insight and change with actual like doing things you know and take experiments, But what most inspires me has always been internal family systems. Like I could wax poetic about I love that approach to obsessed anything more sematically oriented

mindfulness is like a start sematic experiencing. I like definitely draw from body work, and then I do draw from positive psychology for sure, and the idea that like someone's coming in because something that was a strength for them, something that was an adaptation, is no longer working, but like we have to learn the story of that and figure out how to help that person continue to use those strengths, but just in a way that's more adaptive

now that they're an adult. And so what that makes me think about in terms of parenting is then okay, well let me let me now look back at now we have a five year old. If I really do believe that kind of struggles and adulthood where adaptations in childhood and I really do believe in Oh so I didn't say, like, probably the biggest influence for me has always been like attachment theory, right, and for every listening, I know you though this, but that's not the same

as attachment parenting. Attachment theory then like kids are trying to adapt like this is like I keep kind of those like they're trying their best. Like, no five year old who's completely dependent on their parent to survive is trying to mess up their attachment relationships so that they're abandoned and left alone on the street. Like, no one's trying to do that. That just wouldn't be evolutionarily possible.

So then I feel like I just get curious about kids. Well, why if kids are trying to do their best, then why do so many kids do like so many annoying things like all the time? Right? And that really informed my lens right especially, It's like kids are trying to maximize for attachment safety and they're trying to figure themselves out.

And I think there's then this like almost like framework shift that I think about a ton with parenting is like when a kid is having a hard time, are we looking at them like they're a bad kid doing bad things? Or are we looking at them like they're a good kid having a hard time. And I actually think that's the starting point for the entire approach we have, because when you're punishing a kid or sending them away or saying somethings I've said these things too, like what's

wrong with you? Why can you be more generous like your sister? You're so selfish. I'm looking at my kid who's not sharing their snack with their sister as a bad kid doing bad things. If I step in and say, look, I told you those snacks where to share, it looks like you're having a really hard time sharing. I know you're not going to like this. I am going to take that bowl from your hand so I can divvy

up the snacks between you and your sister. Something must be going on for you, and we'll figure that out later. For now, I'm going to step between you. Well, first of all, there's nothing about that approach that's like soft or like anything goes. It's actually very I think again bodying of your authority. But I'm looking at my kid as having a hard time. They're a good kid having a hard time. They're trying to do their best, and their best still isn't so safe for isn't so great,

and so I need to step in. And that's what I think really is almost the foundation of like every everything we end up recommending when kids are struggling, is like they're a good kid underneath their behavior is not an indication of their identity. It's an indication of a struggle they're having, mostly through that behavior, saying like I

really need your help. I need your help now to help me stop, and I definitely need your help outside of the fact to help me build skills I clearly didn't have so I can show up differently the next time. The trauma, loss, and uncertainty of our world have led many of us to ask life's biggest questions, such as who are we? What is our highest purpose? And how do we not only live through, but thrive in the wake of tragedy, division, and challenges to a fundamental way

of living. To help us all address these questions, process what this unique time in human history has meant for us personally and collectively an emerge hole, I've collaborated with my colleague and dear friend, doctor Jordan Feinngeldd to bring you our forthcoming book. It's called Choose Growth, a workbook for transcending trauma, fear, and self doubt. It's a workbook design to guide you in a journey of committing to

growth and the pursuit of self actualization every day. It's chock full of research from humanistic psychology, positive psychology, developmental psychology, personality psychology, cognitive science, and neuropsychology. So lots of themes that you hear about on this podcast, and it's aimed to help us all integrate the many facets of ourselves and co crete our new normal with a renewed sense

of strength, vitality, and hope. Whether you're healing from loss, adapting to the new normal, or simply looking ahead to life's next chapter, Choose Growth will help steer you there to deeper connection to your values, your life vision, and ultimately your most authentic self. Choose Growth will officially hit the shelves September thirteenth, and you can border your copy or the audiobook in the US now on Amazon, Barnes

and Noble, Indie Bound, and all major retailers. If you're in the UK and Commonwealth, you can order now Bookshop dot org dot UK. We truly hope this book helps you grow and thrive and become your best self. Okay, now back to the show. It's a very compassionate approach. I mucht I agree that every kid is good underneath. What do you do with like little monsters? You know, and like I feel like you're you're you're you would you would never even say said you such a phrase

because you just said they're all good underneath. But there are some kids. There are some kids who are like, you know, callous on emotional traits, which is the precursor to psycho adult psychopath. So, from your compassionate lens, what is your advice to a parent who is raising a child who is showing those clinical callous on emotional traits at a very young age within your framework? Look, I would defend, you know, to my core that I think

there's like internal goodness. I really really do. I love that. That doesn't mean that everything is excusable, right that, like at all? Like those two things. And again, I think so many times we convert like people will be like, oh, so he's a good kid, so it's okay that he's just punching his friend on the playground, Like no, why are only two choices that he's a bad kid or that it's okay? Like, don't I don't buy that binary?

You know? So what would I say if a family came to me and they're like, look, my seven year old seems to have like no empathy for anyone, like they seem totally out for themselves. They seem, I don't know, so callous, like they've never seemed to care about anyone else, Like how would I It's hard to like conjecture, like because I don't think i'd be like, well, oh cool,

I'm glad you came in. Here's like the five steps you know, to bring out the good insides, like you know, But I do believe, of course, kids have come into the world with like temperaments and predispositions, and I also believe kids then interact in their environment, and through those interactions, certain things are more or less likely to get more expressed, you know, et cetera, et cetera. Right, there's a temperament,

personality times environment interaction. And so my approach with parents and this is like I always say, like, I don't think it's your fault that your kid is the way they are. I really mean that, Like, I actually don't think it's your fault. And I think it is your responsibility to get to know your kid and to think about the environment that your unique child you know, needs to develop in like the best way as is possible

for your child. And what I mean by your responsibility is you know, like we would never if if a CEO was running a company and having a lot of employees who are like, I don't know, coming in late or whatever, we would never say that, like the change starts with the associates. You'd be like, something's going on in the culture, and like it's not necessarily your fault that everyone's coming in late, Like there could be a

million factors. Change does start with you as the top of that pyramid, right, And so that's like the way I would approach it with a parent. So what would that mean, I mean, I'd get to know that more. I'd want to know more, Well, what is the way what happens when this kid does display this like lack of empathy, What are they doing outside the moment to

build empathy. I think a lot of people think we build empathy in a way that does not all build empathy and actually builds and shame, which then can mask empathy later on. So I'd be curious if they're constantly saying this can, look how upset you made her, Look how she's crying. Don't you care about her crying? Which to me, like that is not how anybody actually develops empathy. That's how people develop feeling really shitty about themselves and

cold hearted. I think this also brings another point that I think is really inherent in general. The good inside is I really believe that we have to be able to see things in our kids before they're able to see those things in themselves. It's know how their parents look at them. And I don't know if I'm sure you maybe have heard of this phrase or something like it. I am as I am seen right, that's like that

attachment relationship. That's the idea of a parent as a mirror. Well, if we are constantly reflecting back to our kid that they are a monster without empathy, if we're saying those things, if we're looking at them in those ways, if we're interpreting their behavior through that lens, well, that is how they identify over time, more and more and more and again, does that mean a parent need a kid that way?

It really doesn't. It's much more nuanced and that, but it does mean that's starting to intervene differently and have a different framework, like we'll have a really big impact on a child. I mean, think about how awful it is as an eight year old or as a four year old to be looked at by adults, by your caregivers like you are just you know, years away from becoming a sociopath. Like that's really that's really fucking sad. That's easy, even hard for a fifty year old. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

if they're diagnosed. Look, this is very compassion of you. It's compassion of all sides, the child children as well as the parents who have to deal with it. You know, they can be very hard, a lot to deal with first for some parents. Some children are easier for parents than others. We have to admit that, Oh my god, beyond I actually think, you know, I think it's it's really interesting. Like I have three kids, right, and I really believe each of my kids like needs a different parent.

And I don't mean like they actually need to be farmed out to a different family, although sometimes it feels like everyone would benefit, you know from Yes, what I mean is they each need me to like lead with a different part of myself, Like I really like to have the right match and look and going back to the work and the parent that's really hard work, that's exhausting. And if anybody listening is like I do have that kid who seems like they really don't care about anyone's feelings.

I feel for you as the parent, like, of course, it's the most reactive, easy thing to say, like what's wrong with you? Are you a psychopathy? Of course, And like if I were in your shoes, I'd be saying the same thing sometimes and hopefully i'd catch myself repair when I could, and a little bit more often try to intervene in a slightly different way. So, yes, it's so,

it's so hard. Yeah, yeah, so it can be absolutely And I really like how you distinguish very clearly clearly between your principle of internal goodness and the fact that it just doesn't mean that anything goes. You said that earlier, when you said, you know, you're not like bleaming or you're you're not like excusing excusing bad behavior, but you still stick by this principle of internal goodness in a way, it's quite consistent with my own humanistic psychology approach you

know of to adults. Yeah, you know, which is uh, you at least try to. I'm a big believer in Carl Rogers unconditional positive regard. I don't know to what extent you are familiar with that concept, but it seems in line with the principle of internal goodness. It is, you know, I always think about anything I have, like

something of a principle around. I always feel like and I want to turn it into a strategy because I always hate and I've been to so many psych events like this where I'm like, that's so interesting whatever someone's saying, and I'm like, how do I do it? Like I need to know when I walk out of this room

how to do the thing and put into action. And to me, the idea of being good inside, you know, put into a strategy is something I call MGI like the most generous interpretation, which is really in line with

Carl Rogers' ideas. Yeah, so it's a powerful intervention. Like even if anyone listening right now is like, Okay, this thing happened with my kid or with your partner or with yourself, like oh I told them not to eat before dinner and they grab chocolate anyway, right, most of us can come up with what I call an LGI, a least Enner's interpretation so quickly, Oh my son doesn't respect me, like WHOA, Like I don't even know, Like it's just so easy and just ask, like, what is

the most generous interpretation of what happened? Like, our whole framework shifts, and that framework shift allows us to intervene differently. That allows us to look at our kid differently. That allows our kid to look at themselves differently, And how kids learn to look at themselves also becomes how they start to look at other people. Right, So it's a really it's a huge impact. Yeah, all these feedback cycles, there's so many. You're right, You're right. You said anything

earlier that I thought was really interesting. You said, well, it's not the parent's fault. You know, you don't want to blame the parents for how the child is acting at age six. First of all, you reminded me of the Philip Warkin poem This be the verse. I don't know if you're familiar with it. I need to do though. They fuck you up, your mom and dad. They may not mean to you, but they do. They fill you with the faults they had and add some extra just

for you. But they were fucked up in their turn by fools and old style hats and coats who half the time were soppy, stern and half at one another's throats. Man hands on misery. To man, it deepens like a coastal shelf. Get out as early as you can and don't have any kids yourself. So yeah, yeah, yeah, So I don't think that's your message. It's the opposite of your message. It's the opposite of your message in terms of the nature and nurture debate. Though, I think that

what you're saying is correct to a certain degree. It is a parent's fault in the sense they are giving the child their genes to a certain degree. But that's that's not something you can blame a parent for, you know, like consciously they didn't intentionally do that. You know, Yeah,

I guess I really do believe this. I really do believe that people are doing the best they can with their resources they have available in that moment and what I would think about intergenerationally or even Okay, so because this happens a lot, we have a lot of people, you know, take some of our workshops, and it's a really I feel like it's a really vulnerable, brave thing to be open to learning, because like learning something new, even an idea, like as much as it could help

you change, it can also really shut you down with like shame, like, oh, fuck, I'm a horrible person, Like I can't believe I didn't know that, or what kind of parent would have done the things I already did. So I always think it's so brave to even be open to learning, right, But I do think it's true. Like we like every parent loves their kid, Like you want to change the way you're parenting your six year old, and you feel like, wow, like my six year old struggling,

they must need something different. Like I think we can say for those six years, I was doing the best I could with the resources I have available, and I'm really going to go get more resources. I'm going to go get different resources, you know, and then in some ways I'll be doing the same thing. I'll be doing the best I can at the resources I have available,

but my resources will change, so I'm going to change. Yeah, the perspective you're taking is very, very practical, and it's very very from the perspective of wanting to clearly help parents and children. I'm talking nerdily about you know, the science of it. Technically. Technically, Yeah, it's a very interesting

when you think about it. As the behavioral geneticists have shown there's a much larger proportion of it, which is genetic similarity, which means it can create that can create some interesting cycles between the child and parent because they both share similar traits. If let's say the mother is hugely narcissistic and they have given the child genes that makes the child hugely narcissistic, you now have a fight between a narcissistic mother a narcissic child, and that creates it.

So there's interesting cycles emerging from the fact that they do share certain perhaps stubborn traits, you know, from both both sides. I think again, it's why like bringing intentionality or being a cycle breaker in parenting. It's like when people say, oh, it's hard work, they're not like saying that as a throwaway, like it's it's really it's really hard work, really is. And this actually segues nicely into I really love this next principle. Well, it's a mode

the two things are true mode. Well, I love that because I love thinking in terms of dialecticals. I love thinking in terms of seemingly opposite things that we can integrate together. So that's what I'm all about that. So, yeah, so we can hold all these things we're saying as true at the same time. Right, So, yes, it may be true that there's a significant overlap of traits between parent child, but that also is true that the parent can be very intentional about how they regulate their own

traits and the way that they respond to their child. Right, and they're et cetera, et cetera. Us, So, can you elaborate a little bit more on how the two things

are true mode can really help parents with their parenting? Yeah, I mean, I think the idea of two things are true can help all of us in every single area of life because so often when we're really frozen in something, right, we're stuck ourselves or being in a power struggle with someone as like a version of being frozen, we're usually in like a one thing is true mode where it feels like, oh, me and my partner are like anything.

He wants to go to his parents for the holiday, I don't want to go to my parents, and like it feels like we can't, like we can't even talk about it, probably because we each are defending something singular. And yeah, I think this happens all the time in parenting, and it happens, you know, relative to what we were talking about before, Like wait, so if I say to my kid, oh, you're so mad at your sister, like it's okay that he hit her, Like I'm always like wait, WHOA,

now do be there? Like two things are true. I will not let you hit and I get that you're mad. Let's find another way for you to express that feeling. Right. We have such a way of narrowing our perspective, right, And I think it's because like when all of us in our early wiring, like most adults I know would say yeah, when I was having a hard time, like I was definitely looked at as a bad kid, like nobody saw that I was struggling. Nobody saw that I was a good kid having a hard time, that my

behavior was separate from our identity. And so we've been really raised and brought up and wired with a one thing is true mentality, Like whatever I see on the surface is the entire truth, right, Like that's it. And so I think, like an example of two things are true that I hear over and over, that I give over and over that I think is compelling is like let's say your kid wants to watch another TV show and you've decided like TV time is over right. If

I'm in one thing, it's true mentality. I probably say something like this, you're being so difficult. You know what's wrong with you? We said two shows, right, then my kid is like, I want to watch another one. It's just like a disaster, okay. Or I see my kid as upset and I'm like, oh, I have the right to make a decision, and my kids are right, and their feelings don't dictate my decision. But also my decision doesn't dictate their feelings. Yes, yes, this is brilliant. This

is brilliant. This is I'd see why they call you the Instagram parenting whisperer. I don't know if anyone actually calls me that, but only my husband make him. Did you see that article though about you? Yes, it's it's followed there, there's worse. There's worse titles. I could follow me around. Yes, Oh my god, this is so funny. Yeah, you know this is this is really uh, really great stuff.

Do you ever follow just for fun? Like the prior generations parenting advice people like doctor was this doctor Spock? No doctor? Is that right? No doctor? There's doctor right? Yeah, yeah, I'm not as familiar with doctor Spock's like, uh, like actual you know kind of writing. But doctor Carp like when I was a parent, you know, like, oh my god, like that was like my Bible, like the five S's you know, I actually got to talk to him, however many months ago. Is like a real you know, a

real treat. Yeah. Like Margaret Mahler's book about the Psychological Life of an infant, Like, you know, that was like a thing I remember reading in my grad school. So sure, for sure that's you know stuff. I I also read this stuff as a parent, Right, those are like the Brazilton right, all the Brazilton books around development. So yeah,

certainly a lot of people learn from. Yeah. What's very unique about your approach is, uh, it seems like everything kind of pivots around the idea of connection, how to increase a high quality connection with your child in the parlance of positive psychology. You have this one thing where you say the key element is connection after disconnection. So does that take a lot of mindfulness and a lot

of intentionality to be able to kind of constantly recalibrate that. Yeah, you know what I think about in terms of connection after disconnection. A lot of what I think about there is like a repair, right, because I think we all feel triggered by our kids. We all get exhausted, we all say things that we don't want to say, and then often what happens is a parent goes into like

a shame spiral. I'm a horrible parent, you know, And then we don't go back to talk about it with our kid, usually because we just don't want to, like face and feel the feelings around the reality of, you know, the thing we're proud of. And yet that moment of disconnection with our kid like really lives in their body and it just kind of free floats around. It's like, oh, that really didn't feel good, and nobody talk to me

about that. And I always feel like when kids are left to their own devices to cope with hard things, they generally rely on self doubt and self blame, which are not thinking why I want to wire into our kids for adulthood. They're not terribly adaptive later on, right, And so I always think with repair number one, we have to repair with ourselves first, like you can't repair

with kid before. In some ways, you find your feet on the ground, or you're sitting in a bathroom, or you're you know, sitting I don't know, on a chair, and essentially you do find your internal goodness under your

latest not so great behavior. I was a good parent having a hard time, not a bad parent doing bad things, like we have to do that, or I always think I always like put my hand on my heart and kind of remind myself, like I'm not proud of that behavior, like I feel guilty, and like that guilt it's not a sign of horrible person. That guilt is actually telling me I acted not in line with my values, and I actually have an opportunity to now to like act

in like with my values. So and then when you repair with your kid, which is some version of going back and saying that wasn't your fault, and you don't make me yell, you don't make me say mean things. You could also say it depends on situation your a kid, like, hey, the thing that you did, look, we both know that wasn't okay, and we need to work on that and we will. And that doesn't justify the thing I said,

or that doesn't right. That's what's really key, and some version of I'm sorry and I'm going to work on that. And if you're really you know, I want to go for bonus points like that probably felt scary to you, and I'm open to hearing more about what that was like and what you're doing. Then in that moment is you're literally like reopening that file that stored in their body with by fear and you know abandonment, you know worry, and you know their own spiral of kind of dark feelings,

and you really reopen it. And I always think it's like the most hopeful thing, like you get to change the ending to that story, like you actually do, and you get to add all the elements that were missing, and that that really makes a huge difference for a kid and for an adult and for your relationship. Yeah, definitely. So you have children, I have children? Yeah, ten, seven and five. Okay, so your three children. Did you find you more interested in this topic after having children? Where

were you ten years ago? Yeah? One hundred percent. You know, I've always found I've always fund people interesting, and I've always found systems interesting. Like I've always wanted to learn more about someone who I'm seeing in private practice or someone I was working with. I always want to know more about their system. What was their system grown up? What's the system there? And now small families the larger systems. And so then when I had a kid, obviously I

became more interested in parenting. And then I think, honestly it was when I had my second, my daughter, I was like, oh, like, different kids really do need different things, are like oh, and parents would say to me like, I'm doing the thing you said, but my kid is

reacting in this way. And I would kind of think in the back of my head like, oh, I wonder if you're like doing it right, because when I did that with my son, you know, like hey responds and kind and I had my daughter and I was like, oh, okay, Like now I've lived it. And so I think my three kids, how different they are like, and yet also seeing how like when you do figure out a way

of connecting to them, how powerful it is. It's always like how powerful it is for yourself because I feel like I've grown so many parts of myself and learned so much through trying to figure out my kids that it's hard, but definitely just the whole topic of parenting has become that much more compelling. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Who are some other people who are some of your contemporaries that you really admire that you'd also recommend people listen to.

Maybe they're very complimentary to your own approach. Yeah, I mean I feel like I get so much inspiration from internal family systems. I love their books. I love Astara Parell, like everything she says I find so interesting. I love prior guests on this podcast amazing. I love listening to

Glennon Doyle and Abby Wombacks. You know, I think Abby wom Back there's so much in the good inside approach that's really about, again, like embodying your authority and setting boundaries and creating more space for yourself and feeling more embodied than that in some way says quote nothing to do with parenting, but really has everything to do with parenting, because it enables you to show up in a sturdier way. And so those people come to mind. I love nedri

to wob I love the way, oh I love her. Yeah, I love the way she thinks another prior giest. Yeah, so those are those the people that immediately come to mind. Cool. You have ridden that you would rather prioritize resilience so or happiness for kids? Why is that an important prioritization for parents? So doesn't everyone want their child to be happy, right, Everyone says that, don't just want your child to be happy?

And I would say that to me, I was like no, And again we had this thing like, oh, you want your kids to be unhappy? Like, no, definitely not unhappy either. But there's a lot between that and the things we also the things we really want for our kids. I think it's always a good time to pause and just seel like how much of ourselves is in there versus

how much of our kid is in there? I I kind of want my kids to, I don't know, to find what they want for themselves, you know, not to say I can't jump in and be controlling at times, of course I can. So why do I think resilience

is a better goal or more like empowering goal than happiness. Well, I think a lot of these thoughts came from the work it did with adults for so many years, where I got a lot of these same clients, like they'd be these incredibly high achieving people on the outside, you know, the college, the partnership, the job, that, the everything, and like they came in feeling like so empty and so anxious.

And there were a lot of stories of the ways in which not all of them, but a bunch of them their childhoods were like quote perfect, Like I don't even know, like I'm supposed to talk about childhood therapy, Like I don't know. My parents were always there for me, right, And when we looked into it more, it seemed like there was a lot of stories of like their childhoods being really focused on like maximizing happiness at all time.

So like I didn't make the soccer team, so I, you know, I don't know, move to this town and said to make that soccer team. You know, I didn't. I remember any get invited this lumber party, and I remember my parents, you know, did the slumber party for me, right, And like I'm the surface none of those things individually. It's not like I'm like, oh, I would never I would just leave my kid in a puddle of despair.

Like again, there's a lot between extremes, but there were these patterns in which anytime a child was upset, they were rescued from that and like brought into happy. Like I always think about this idea of this feelings bench, Like I feel like kids are walking around and like sitting on different benches, which are different experiences and feelings. So one may people left out bench, and I always think as a parent sitting on that bench with them

being like, hey, I'm here, You're not alone. You know

this is probably a bench you'll be on again. Or are they like pulling them off and bringing them to the happiness bench in the sun, And they're are two really different interventions, And you think about the patterns, Like what I don't want for my kids when they're twenty five is to be scared of their own distress is when something and never happens that's upsetting, that brings them jealousy, that brings them sadness, that brings them, frustration, that brings

them in security. I want them to say, to some degree, like I've felt this feeling before, Like I know I'm going to get through it. There's a reason I'm feeling it. There's probably even information for me in this feeling. I'm not scared of this feeling. I don't have to run away from this feeling, which is also a really hard thing to do, given feelings live in your body and so resilience to me comes from the ability to like

sit on any of those benches. And I also think the biggest paradox is when we help kids over their childhoods build resilience, happiness naturally finds those people because there's just more space for happy, whereas when we focus only on happiness, happiness is actually really hard to find because anytime a distress light flickers on, it's like kind of

panic and running away. Yes. Yeah, And let me say also, like I'm not a master at this, like if my husband was here listening, like you know, Becky, you've over time tolerating distress sometimes, you know, like you can like look for the happy. And I'm always like, yeah, why do you think I write about it all the time, Like this is like my own therapy, so like I think it's really easy to think like for other people,

like oh, Becky has this thing figured out? Or if people say this to me all the time, like I describe a scenario and they're like, oh, my goodness, do you have a camera inside my home? Like how did you know what's happening in my home? And I was like that would be a very complicated thing, Like it's interesting to me that you just didn't assume that probably that scenario like happened in my home, right, like my

home is probably like your home. So all of these things, you know, I'm just very much a student of them too, that's all. Oh, of course, of course, yeah, you know. Shame is a big one, A big emotion that a lot of people run away from, or that prevents people from approaching at least. So how can people detect and reduce shame parents as well as children that are feeling shameful for a behavior they did? It works both directions, right, one hundred percent shame. I'm sure you know. We could

talk a question. It's a big ever, it's a big talk with Yeah, I know. You know. The way I think about shame, which I don't think is like anything

novel is. I think like the active experience of shame, especially as adults, is like a feeling of like a perceived break in connection, a perceived break and attachment, and shame gets built over time for kids when they go through experiences where they believe entire like kind of parts of them are non conducive with attachment, kind of like this thing, this part of me, who just did this thing, who's feeling this way, Nobody wants to be around him,

Nobody wants to be around her. She gets distance, not connection. She gets punishment, not curiosity. She gets you know, the dark eyes, not the warm eyes. And then again, because kids are always trying to adapt, they're like, oh, well, I better put that part of a way, because my goal is to maximize attachment. That's how I get all my needs met. I'm dependent on my parents for a very long time, and so I better put that part like deep down in a closet, like I really really

better put that part away. And yet I think it goes back to some of the other things we're talking about. I think differentiating between identity and behavior is so important because, for example, let's say I don't know, Let's say I'm with my kid at a birthday party and they're really really hesitant. It seems like, you know, they're the only one who's not joining right, what's wrong with you? You're

embarrassing me? You're embarrassing me? Or later he's like you were you made it, You're so dramatic, like you know all those kids, you know, all those kids, like why do you have to be the only one right? Why is that shame inducing? Because what a kid really learns is when I'm nervous and hesitant, I'm not lovable, I'm not connectable, I'm not attachable, right versus, And this is and again, like the paradox here is so interesting because then the part that was nervous and hesitant has now

shame layered on. Well, shamering is on like an animal

freeze defense date. Right, So now, if you think about changing, like, I don't think anyone would say an important ingredient, and change is like frozenness, like getting frozen inte thing like is inherently oppositional to change, right, So versus, Let's say I'm at the party and I say to my kid, like, something about this party doesn't feel great to you, Like I believe you you'll figure it out, or I'm sure you'll join when you want something like that, or if

it's chronic problem, maybe I talk about it with my kid in advance. Hey, what's it going to be like to be at the parties? We have a lot of people. You want to look at a picture of what the dynastics facility is going to look like, so you kind of can picture it in an advance because I know new things can feel really tricky for me too. I'm just making this up. A kid is learning big lessons there whether allowed to feel hesitant? Can I trust that feeling?

Can I talk to my parent about being hesitant? Well, you know, when I have a sixteen year old and she's invited, I don't know, to some party and she's feeling a little hesitant, the on your needs, I think all of us will be like, yes, we want you to feel that way, and come talk to me about it, right, Yes, yes we do. And so I think the big thing about I think there's a couple of things about shame. I think one of the things that really helps us in terms of like not bringing on shame our kid

is differentiating like a feeling from a behavior. So as long as I look at my kid is the only one not joining, okay, then like she's the kid who doesn't join, I'm more likely to bring on shame when I look at my kid as what, oh, she's probably feeling hesitant. Okay, Like I can understand hesitation, and like we all feel hesitation. Sometimes it happens to be inconvenient for me because I'd rather be talking to my friends.

But I can understand that, and I think differentiating feeling from behavior helps us then come up with that most generous interpretation and helps us lead with connection instead of disconnection and shame. Yeah, yeah, I clearly can see that. What about the value of self care? Well, how can burn out, exhausted parents make more self care routines in their life? I mean, self care is so important, so important, and I think, how do we create self care routines?

But also like what really constitutes self care for me? Right? Because I think we're fed a lot of ideas of like what self care is. And I really mean this, Like I love a paticure. I can't I don't get them, you know, for many reasons. This is often I would like, but I love that. But for me, that's not like that's one version of self care. But to me, the self care that I see so many parents needing more of is like self care that makes you feel empowered

and like capable and like maybe excited or creative. Right, And so I think for anyone listening when they're thinking about self care, just to be like, there's not one right way to do this. There's probably many different buckets. So if one is like being taken care of, Okay, I like feeling taken care of that feels like self care, Maybe a pedicure falls into that bucket. Okay, but what are their buckets? You know do I need? Because what feelings do I have a hard time accessing and those

are probably the things I need to build. So what helps me feel empowered? What helps me feel not alone? And then in terms of like my number one tip to build a self care routine is I think we have this fantasy sometimes as parents that like, I'm gonna say to my partner my kids, like, I can't put you down to bed tonight, going out to dinner with my friends something like that, and my husband's gonna say to me, you know what, you deserve that, And my

kids are gonna say, you deserve that. Mom. We're gonna all, you know, I don't know, clap as you walk out the door. We're so proud of you for taking care of ourselves yourself. Now, it just like doesn't happen. Often a partner will say like, oh, I really have to put the kids down, and you're gonna be like, well,

you're not putting me down. And I think to really engage in self care, we have to tolerate the distress of prioritizing ourselves, and especially for women who most of us were raised to like gaze out and take care of others, you know, way way, way, way way before gazing in and taking care of ourselves. It's a totally new circuit to like really take care of yourself. And I say, we can't wait for the time that like everything lines up perfectly and to start thinking again. Two

things are true. It's not like, oh, I feel guilty so I can't go out to dinner. It's I can go out to dinner and I can tolerate that guilty feeling. Yeah, I think a lot of these patterns were maybe taught by their parents. So what are some you know, or maybe the kind of environments they grew up in really influenced the way that they raise their own children. What if a parent wants to be a cycle breaker and that's a phrasey you use and they're like, you know

what this these generational patterns they stop right now? How can they have the courage to do that? I think that's the that takes a lot of courage. So what I would say about being a cycle breaker is, first of all, cycle breaking doesn't mean doing a one eighty right, Like, I don't know anyone who does a one eighty in anything except you know, like so you know, someone was saying, like, my, you know, my childhood is just full of being yelled

at and sent to my room. And I want to be the parent like calm and connected because I actually want to have a relationship with my kids when they get older. Right, I'm like, that's amazing. I remember this my Brier practice, the gil I yelled at my kids, and I was like, you think you're going to go from a childhood where you were yelled at all the time to your kids having a childhood where they're never yelled at. Like I wasn't yelled at that much as

a kid. I still yell at my kids. And I'm not saying that like with a badge of honor, but it's just practical. So if you're a parent who's identifying as a cycle breaker, I would even imagine like the starting point and remind yourself not only like do I not need to go, I like it's not realistic to do a complete shift on that, And so to set a goal that's still so momentous and so huge, but

also allows yourself to like feel good about this huge effort. Right, So it might be a setting a goal first of like I promise myself this week that I'm gonna repair with my kids when I do yell. That's still a big difference, because what I know is most people who were yelled at all the time there wasn't any repair.

That's a big difference. Okay, My goal the next week is I would like to find one time this week when I feel that urge to scream and I recognize it early and I say to my kids, hey, this is one of those times we talked about where I need a moment. I'm gonna go take some deep breaths in my room and I'll be back once once, once, one time. Right. That is cycle breaking right there. Wow. Well, thank you so much doctor Becky for being in my

podcast today. Good luck with your book which is called Good Inside, And for everyone listening, check out her amazing Instagram page. Doctor Becky at Good Inside is the name of your Instagram handle. I just googled it. That's such a pleasure and honor to have you on the Psychology Podcast today. Thank you so much. I really really enjoyed this conversation. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Psychology Podcast. If you'd like to react in some way,

to something you heard. I encourage you to join in the discussion at the Psychology podcast dot com. We're on our YouTube page, the Psychology Podcast. We also put up some videos of some episodes on our YouTube page as well, so you'll want to check that out. Thanks for being such a great supporter of the show, and tune in next time for more on the mind, brain, behavior, and creativity.