Andrew Yang || The Future of American Democracy

from his presidential and mayorial campaigns. His major realization is that America's two party systems designed for polarization and dysfunction, with the media and the Internet further inciting division. Polarization may eventually escalate into violence. In order to shift towards a human centered economy, Andrew believes we need to change our political dynamics and incentives. We also touched on the

topics of tribalism, rationality, automation, education, leadership, and governance. It's a really rich conversation with some and I hugely respect so that further Ado, I bring you Andrew Yang. Hi, Andrew, I'm really looking forward to chatting with you again. Our last chat was was pretty awesome. I thought so too, Scott. How are you, my friend? I'm good, I'm good, You're a busy guy these days. Huh, I guess I am busy. I've had a few things cooking. But it feels good.

I feel like we're doing the right things in the nick of time. Awesome, Well, let's have you know last time. Let's kind of pick up that baton of that human element, you know, our human conversation. I really loved your new book, which I have prominently displayed behind me, and I thought it was really cool. You talked about your childhood, You talked about growing up and something we have in common.

Another thing to add to the list of something about in calm is that we're both bulloyed as kids and kind of felt maybe a little bit like an outsider. Right. Did you you feel quite like an outsider growing up? Oh? Yeah, yeah. I was the only Asian kid in my class, maybe one of the only ones my grade, and child of immigrants had skipped a grade, so I was extra scrawny and small, and I would get mocked for all sorts

of things, being Asian, most most prominent among them. You know, I got called goog and chink and a bunch of other things fairly often. You said, I spent a lot of my childhood shy, angry and trying to do anything possible to avoid being a nerd. Were you in gifted education grown up? I was in all of the accelerated and advanced classes. Yes, yeah, yeah. And it's not like when you were growing up you dreamt of being in politics. Right.

That wasn't your grandiose dream as a kid, right, like I'm gonna run for president someday, Like a lot of presents when they were children, I think they dreamt that. But that wasn't one of your dreams, was it growing up? No? No, My dreams were to be a judge and a secret agent and then a business person. So I had a few different dreams. And then you've had some fastening jobs before you went into politics. You were a night club promoter, right, do you tell me attle about Ignition NYC. I was

a nightclub promoter. So my first startup had just failed. I was approximately twenty six twenty seven years old. I think it was my twenty seventh birthday where I had a birthday party and all these people showed up that I did not know, a lot of them were Asian. They drank a lot, and so I looked and said, you know, I think I could throw a party and have a bunch of people show up. That seems like

it would have some value. So I got a couple of business partners and we lined up a venue and had a party and was a really good party, I'm proud to say. And so at that point the people I was with were like, Hey, let's do this again. So Ignition NYC was born. We had a mailing list. We would just go and throw parties in venues, primarily in Tribeca downtown. This was a year or so after nine to eleven, and so southern Manhattan was empty ish.

So if I went to a downtown venue or a bar club and said I can bring whatever the number is, two hundred three hundred plus people, Can I have the venue that night and to share the bar? They would say yes, and then it was up to me whether I wanted to charge cover. I generally did not, which made it a really compelling value for people because then you know, they would just show up with their friends and have a good party, and we'd make money. Not

big money, but modest money. Our high point was a New Year's Eve party at a lounge called Scopa, which no longer exists on Madison Avenue and because of New Year's Eve. New Year's even New York City is a real time of price gouging, where New Year's Eve parties were routinely seventy eighty bucks or more. You got some booze out of it, but people were always like, oh freaking hate it, and half the time you won't even have a good time. So we got a venue scope

and blew it out. And that was maybe the hype. That was the high point of my time as a nightclub promoter. That New Year's You party. I love hearing about that. So I love hearing about that side of you. I love hearing about that, that sort of what would you call that side of you? It's not it's I don't want to just reduce to the party side, but kind of like the bringing people together to have fun side.

I mean, how would you describe that? It was funny, Scott, I was reflecting a little bit of my younger years, and after my first startup died, I was a bit wounded, and so throwing these parties seemed like a way to solve a bunch of problems. It actually was originating. I should give credit to a friend of mine who said, hey, how do we become cool in our twenties because we

can't afford a big apartment, which I could not. I had a roommate, and so I said, you just throw a party, and it's not your apartment, it's in a lounge. And so from that I start throwing these parties. But I wasn't a really big partier, like I would often not even drink at these parties, or maybe I'd nurse one drink the whole night, and I would play host and troubleshooter and whatnot. So it was a business for me.

It was a fun business. It was good to be able to combine a business in your social life and you have something to do and you make people happy. And I have to say that throwing events is phenomenal training for business generally, because it actually takes a real thick skin to plant the flag and say, hey party, everyone come, and the fact is of no one comes and it sucks. But if everyone comes and it's happy, so that there is like a little bit of courage

and deliverables involved. Where I would look up sometimes be a Friday night, and I would talk to my team and I'd be like, hey, what was the RSVP list looks like and let's say it was light. Let's say that you know, like one hundred people at rsvp' and you assume only half of them show up. And so I looked at that and said, well, that's unacceptable. And then I would do a bunch of last minute things to try and move the needle and lo and behold. When I was running a company years later, I would

do the same sort of thing. I'd be like, Hey, what's going on. Then you'd be like, well, we have to do something about this. Or when you run a nonprofit it's the same thing. So we're a political campaign where you were looking at trying to move people in a particular way. Event to expertise and experience is fantastic training. So don't let anyone tell you otherwise. If you decide to dabble into space, and anyone can do it. The

costs are so low. Anyone can do it if you just have you know, an email list, including a friends like it doesn't need to be grandiose. You could get ten people together for a barbecue or something like that. Yeah, I love that space. That's awesome. That's awesome. This is something I don't think you talk about that much. So it's cool to hear your kind of insane thing. Yeah, time is past, man, but it used to be a big part of my identity. I was also mostly single

during these years. That that is relevant information for sure, Like I would go home after the party, also single, Like it's not like you know there was after the part. Yeah, yeah, I very much remember that. Well, hopefully not every night, but okay, Look, what I really really love about your work kind of the global the global sort of thread that runs through so much of what you do is this kind of human centered aspect to it and want to kind of humanize everything, and of course the economy,

but there are other aspects as well. At what point did you decide that you wanted to run for president and that and that the humanizing of the economy was Was it a really really important issue. I had spent six years or so running a nonprofit that i'd started, ad Venture for America, and over those years I became concerned and convinced that there were big changes of foot in the US that were making things worse for a

lot of people. And because I'd been trained in a certain way, my thesis was, look, we just need to have our smart people, our human capital, our energy doing different things in different places, and all should be well. And my thesis was if you get the small army of people that are heading to Goldman, Sachs and McKenzie and the like, heading to startups in Detroit and New

Orleans and Saint Louis, then that would fix things. It was inspired by a guy named Charlie Crole I met who had started a company in Providence, Rhode Island that had one hundred twenty employees, and I thought, wow, like that, that's what we need. You have innovation in different places and one hundred twenty jobs and prominence a big deal.

All of this. I came to doubt whether my vision would work around twenty sixteen, and then Donald Trump became president in twenty sixteen, and then I thought, well, someone should try and raise the alarm over what I saw as progressive transformation and automation of the economy. And I'd been around a bunch of our elected representatives over the preceding several years, so I was confident no one would do anything. And it was foolhardy Scott, but it also

seemed necessary, and I thought, well, what's the downside? I spent three years toiling in obscurity, no one cares. People laugh at me, and then I go home like, well I tried. I mean I could live with that. But then the upside was accelerate the end of poverty and improve the human condition, and so I thought, well that's a pretty good trade off. Yeah, I say, I'd say it was harder than I thought I was going to be. I think you probably gathered about that from the book.

Did you gather that from the book? Oh? Yeah, I did. It sounded like a zoo from you know, bringing the book sounds like the whole thing you said it was like a reality show that needed you to assume a role in order to survive. Is that not what you expected? Like? Did you like? What did you expect going into it? My expectations were that people would be excited about it

because of the intellectual case I was making. And the thing I missed that I probably should have realized was that they need a human being to get connected to that. You need to try and build that interest in yourself. Andrew Yang the human and you saw from the book. I originally entitled the Campaign UBI twenty twenty because it

was just universal based game comment so obvious. Everyone does just get this is GA with a thousand bucks a month, and it became Yang twenty twenty because my team was like UBI twenty twenty, like no one's gonna give a shit, and they were correct. Now going into it, I didn't think that anyone would care about Andrew Yang either, and so that my thought was that if I brought people the facts, then they would figure it out. And the reality was that facts our secondary or tertiary now in

American life, and what people care about is characters. And so in order for us to contend at all, I needed to become a character. Hey, eyan, I'm excited to announce that the eight week online Trendscend course is back. Become certified in learning the latest science of human potential and learn how to live a more fulfilling, meaningful, creative,

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add on. Save your spot today and get fifty percent off the normal price by going to Transcend course dot com. Sign up for the early bird today and get fifty percent off at transcendcourse dot com. We have so much fun in this course and I look forward to welcoming you to be a part of the transcender community. Okay, now back to the show. I'm truly interested in the psychology of that whole experience, and I'm familiar with the whole literature of the psychology literature on power and how

power affects our psychology and our empathy levels. How did you kind of start to see your own psychology change when you got to the point where people were telling you how to dress, how to walk, and everywhere you went you were the center of attention at certain point. How did that kind of Well you talk a little bit ab how it screws with your mind in the book, So I'd love to hear a little bit about that. My primary struggle, Scott, was that I'm not that extroverted

a person. And so after a day of campaigning, I would just shut down, like a crash test dummy or a puppet whose strings have been caught, where I'd just

be like, oh, I mean. And in the hottest days of the presidential I had advanced staff advancing my room, so I'd get there and like my you know, toiletries would be out or my suitcase, and there'd be some stuff like people would try and make it so that it was habitable, and all of the things that you'd expect a normal person to do when they come back their room, which would be get changed, call their family, you know, just like behave like a normal person when

you get home. Some of the time I didn't have the energy to do even really basic things, and my wife started to understand this about me too. So the strain I had was that I felt like I was an instrument and I would get up and play, play, play, and then get put in my case at the end of the day, and then repeat and do it the

next day. And over time, the problem was that it started to really drain me and also make me feel not just depleted, but just kind of inhuman, like like I was an automaton, and so I would be doing all these things to try and prevent myself from feeling that way. And it's an interesting tension because if your staff then and you're around a person, and so some of the people that knew me well started to get what makes me tick and we're like, okay, I get it.

Like if I let Yang wander off and go into a random coffee shop and whatnot, that's like a better thing to do than being like, hey, hey, next thing. Next thing is because like the way you think of a productivity on a campaign is output. It's like, if Yang has a spare five minutes, then I should try and get him to call someone or do this or

do that, and that that would be productive. But at the extreme end that ended up becoming counterproductive because then I would just do things worse or or become negative, you know. So it was that that kind of struggle. I mean, what sort of anxiety management techniques do you have? And not just anxiety management, but you seem to have this great ability to constantly renew the energy, but you do it in an authentic way. And this is something

I like about you. Every time I talk to you, it feels like not like I'm talking to a politician, but I'm talking to well, dare I say, a friend, you know, or just like a human, but you're also you're an authentic Like we started off today, before we even started recording, I said like, how are you? And You're like, I'm okay. And I was like, wow, what a what an honest answer? You know? Like you I mean, it's a very subtle thing to just say I'm okay.

But you know, someone who is trying to put on a show and kind of not and be it, you know, be something that they're not feeling, would be like I'm great, you know, and how are you? You know? And I really like your authenticity in that way. So how do you balance your authenticity with that feeling or that need to keep renewing this kind of interest in people when you're talking to someone, when you're talking to people so long and over, you know, like you said, you're an interests.

I totally resonate with that. Well, now it's easier because I've got a more sustainable pace or Running for president at its height was extraordinarily demanding. On that side, running for mayor was extraordinarily demanding in the same way even

more extreme. Actually running for mayor I found to be harder, in part because when you're running for president, there's just some natural distance baked in between events where you'd be in a rental vehicle for an hour, whereas in a place like New York City, you know you could be in front of people for a higher percentage of the day. So now it's a little easier for me to maintain

like a healthy level of energy. I try and exercise, I try and get outside, I try and do basic things, and I also try and remind myself how fortunate I am, because you know, I've got a great life. You know, I've got a family that has no idea what I'm doing most days, which is great. There are people who look to me for a sense of positivity or perspective,

so no, it's it's good. One of the things I also remind myself, Scott, is that there will be a day at some point, inevitably when no one cares about anything I'm doing. So if people care now, then you know, I should just be grateful. Thanks for having me on, Scott as an example. You're a great guy and a great thinker, and you know decide to have me on your podcast. It's very nice. Well, thank you so much. Well, I mean it goes both ways, the gratefulness aspect to it.

I mean, you know, having a conversation it's no easy task kind of conversation of the future of American democracy. And so it's sort of like you identify some really tangible problems though, which I really do appreciate. One is changing the incentive structures. So relating to the presidential campaign, you know, you talked about the media incentive structures and other incentive structures that may not be getting us to

be moving in the healthiest direction politically. Can you kind of talk a little about what is wrong with some of those incentives. Yeah, it's really bad, Scott, and I think most people recognize the problem even more now. It's funny, as I wrote the book right before January sixth, and then January sixth happened, and now people are waking up

in many ways to the magnitude of the challenge. But you have media organizations that very much reinforce your ideological beliefs, and so we all know, I mean, on one side it's New York Times and MSNBC and The Gang, and then on the other side it's Fox and all the conservative voices. Then there are folks like you and I like to put myself in this camp and that we're kind of independent thinkers. You're hyperrational. I like to think I'm lucid most of the time. And these things don't

fit neatly into an ideology called bucket. They don't fit into a partisan bucket. So the media landscape right now is separating us into warring ideological tribes, and that's getting compounded by social media. And by the way, we have a two party system, so you have political warfare going on in a given day, and so this is going to get worse, not better progressively. The dangers are asymmetrical. People will say like, hey, you have you know, excesses

on both sides, which I agree with. But the threat of violence very much emanates from the far right and people who see violence against the government as almost they're not just that like a right or responsibility, but you know, like an act of patriotism. So in that context, you're unfortunately going to be prone to increasing polarization and worse

over time. So there are three layers of incentives. I like to say number one of the political incentives that if you have a job in office, you're keeping your job is based on whether you play caiden please the ten to fifteen percent most extreme partisans in your party in your district. This is even more true now that ninety percent or so of seats are safe seats, so you're not going to be contested in the general. Then you have the media organization's incentives, and then you have

social media pouring gasoline on the whole thing. So in that environment, you can see why we're living in two versions of the same country, or really maybe limitless versions of the same country, where people have different facts that they can turn to. Yeah, yeah, I clearly see the problem with the duopoly as it's called. You know, right now ten percent of American voters elect essentially eighty three

percent of the representatives. So does seem like where the parties putical candidates have to appease the extremes versus the incentives to appease the majority. And you see that as a problem, correct, Oh yeah, how could you think that it's not a problem. Okay, but some people don't see that as a problem, so not everyone, so that those are who are that extreme don't see that as a problem.

And so I'm all about trying to figure out different perspective taking and to figure out how we can get everyone on board, right, get one hundred percent on board with this idea. And those who are in the extreme would argue, those who are far left extreme for instance, would argue that there are some really really significant changes that have to be made. They can only be made in a radical sort of way. And the people in the far right feel the same exact way as well,

right about what they're trying to do. So psychologically, how can you convince people with that mindset that they can have the changes that they want to see in the world by being more moderate politically? Do you see what I'm saying? Oh? See it? And one of the things I do want to say is that I too believe that we need very dramatic, fundamental changes. I campaigned on one thousand bucks a month forever and to destroy a

lot of people. It's very dramatic. And so the first thing is you have to try to extricate yourself from this entire left right spectrum, which is very hard to

do when you talk about politics. The second thing is that to the extent that there are problems in the Democratic Party, I think they are very different than the problems in the Republican Party, whereas in the Democratic Party you have a bit of a conflicts or tension between what people call the progressives, which are folks who want very big changes, many of those changes I'm totally aligned with, and then the more quote unquote moderate wing of the

Democratic Party, which most people would regard as what Joe Biden represented. Coming in on the Republican side is different, where the people in the far right are very conservative trumpers who have a different take on twenty twenty vote totals and a bunch of other things. So I often say, look like we're now, we're rewarding the extremes on both sides, and then people on the left are like, hey, you know,

like casting us as the problem isn't correct. The problem is the bought and sold, corrupt part of the Democratic Party, and that there are elements of that that like I agree with in the sense that like I am for

some very big goals. The thing that I've concluded, though, Scott, is that the model that people have in terms of how they think we're going to accomplish any of these goals is, in my mind, due for an evolution where if you were to start from the far left and say my goal is to transform the Democratic Party and

then pass all these big changes and whatnot. If you looked at the numbers, you'd see that that is going to be very difficult, maybe impossible in the current constitutional order, as certain states let's call them Wyoming or Montana or whomever, are very overrepresented in the Senate and in the electoral College. And so if you want big, sweeping changes, you're unlikely to get them by just, for example, flipping the Democratic

Party and then making these changes happen. Now, some people will then look at it and say, well, then you know I'm in a constitution make it so that you know, Wyoming doesn't have as many senators California and whatnot. And then I respond to that that that is virtually impossible.

There's no way to make those changes. And so right now, if you accept the left right dichotomy, then we're in for gridlock, polarization, strife, violence, worse, and arguing from that perspective will just drive us all crazy over time, and that the real need is to change the political dynamic so that you don't have just two sides, you don't have sides that are being controlled by the hyperpartisans in

those parties. If you were to get the average Republican voter to sit down and say, how do you feel about the drug companies? You want to stick it to them and be like yeah, you know, Like the problem right now is that that's not the true nature of the choice. You know, that person's interests aren't being reflected by what the representative is going to do. So that that's the set of changes you need to make. That the duopoly itself is actually very much designed for stasis

and in action and dysfunction and polarization. So with that as your understanding, then you think, Okay, the real problem is the nature of these institutions. Can you change them so that they're more genuinely representative? Can In my ideal

world right now we would have five political parties. And if you had that, then someone like Trump running would not be as much of an existential threat as it, in my opinion is for democracy, And would the chances of having something like universal basic income pass then go way up? In my opinion, Yes, So, so that that's what I'm focused on right now with the Forward Party. That was a bit long winded, Sorry about that, Scott, Well, not at all no, no, no no. I love that response.

I mean, I'm all for this idea, but I also like to look at it, as you understand, from the perspective of even even the minority majority. They're the minority, madarty, you know what I mean, right, like the extreme minority, but they're actually have the most power in a lot of ways in our political system. Well right right now, a lot of people Scott have what I call negative power, which is interesting, which is I can't do anything, but I can keep you from doing anything, which then drives

everyone crazy. Francis Fukuyama called it the vitocracy, like we live in a vitocracy now. And the separation too, is that if you have a campaid who runs on big promises and then they get there and be like, well, can't do any of these things, then people get very frustrated. Of course. Yeah, well I'm going to quote you here. You say, the Dwopoli is going to kill us. The two sides of the Dwopoli don't really care about getting it right. They just care about eking out the next win.

And you know, even what I said right there in that book, I might not even have been right there, and that sometimes they don't even care about eating out the next win for sure, for sure. But the getting it right part, so in your eyes, is getting it right? Is that being aligned with the truth, is that that's a whole buffet of things right, the getting it right part right? Can you unpack that a little bit more

for me? And this is one reason why we should be so concerned, Scott, is getting it right would be improving people's way of life. Getting it right would be longer life spans, better educational outcomes, more job satisfaction, better drinking water and clear air, like you know, you name a bunch of things and be like, yeah, that that's pretty good, better mental health. But right now, no one actually is rewarded for improving any of those things. It's irrelevant.

They're politically irrelevant. And that has to be the change in the transformation. You can see it now with this child tax credit, which I'm very pro it lifted several million American kids out of poverty, which I think most peop would agree is a good thing. Its future is

now in jeopardy. And you look at that and say, well, if four hundred and forty two economists say we should continue this forever, what is the hold up, and you know it's right now in jeopardy because of the deadlock in Congress, So that to me would be getting it right. Is that if you hit on a policy that actually delivers value for the American people, then we should lean into that. And right now we don't have a sense as to what policies are good or bad, because even

our view of reality has become partisan. Very true, one of my favorite psychologist, Abraham as well as you know he's one of their psychologists, he said, we need a society where virtue pays. And one of your principles of the Forward Party is grace intolerance. Loved that, by the way, I loved it, and wondering how in the world can we change the incentive structure of political campaigning so that

grace intolerance pays politically. The biggest change we can make would be to shift to non parties and open primaries and ranked choice voting, so that if I was like a forgiving sort, I was graceful and tolerant, then maybe there'd be a subset of people that became very you know, enamored with a particular candidate who's a little bit more of a bomb thrower or whatnot. But that person didn't

enjoy majority appeal. And if you had a ranked choice voting system, then the person who gets fifty one percent of people to say yeah, I'm cool with that person would then win. You would reward positive campaigning and punish negative care painting to a higher degree. So a lot of it is in the process itself. I think a lot of Americans want more grace intolerance. The problem is it's now rewarded politically or in the media or via social media right now with the incentives as they stand,

that's for sure. That's for sure. I mean that's all tied together with the being rewarded for the extremity and the vitriol. I mean, I know that I'll probably get more likes if I say something incredibly divisive. My tweets that say like look, everyone, we just need more love don't get as many likes. That's when I say something that's like everyone can kind of take a stand on, oh give me something. They got rewarded a lot. Scott, what did you say that? It's like, oh, that one

hit the chord. Hey, you know what, Actually, I almost want to take back when I said, because I did have this tweet where I were very much aligned in what you're talking about. That did do pretty well. It said, oh, of course, I can't find it right now, but said we need a society basically where instead of everyone fighting everyone coming from their ideas, from their own ideologies, we all have a shared commitment to the truth and we were like committed to the same shared reality. Now, that

did very well. It's interesting because you can have some of these kinds of statements that can it feels like it can unite people from very different camps before you start getting to the specifics of it. But I like these kind of general statements where you can get on board people who would normally not talk to each other and then kind of get at least get them in the same room they're all in, like scottbrig Golvin's with our page, for instance, and then we can be like, okay,

now let's like kind of talk specifics. So I do notice there are some real grace love kind of truth seeking tweets that do well, but they kind of do well for individuals for different reasons. Does that make sense? It doesn't. And Scott, I love that message. What it made me think of is this conservative statement that I see often is the fact that don't care about your feelings. And it's funny that that's a sertive sentiment because it's

something that I actually can get behind. In large part, it's like, yeah, that you know some things are factual. Bill Maher just put out a video about how Democrats wildly overestimate the chances of being hospitalized if you contract COVID. I think seventy percent of Democrats had it at twenty percent or higher. If you get COVID you go to the hospital, which, by the way, I mean that would be a horrifyingly high level. I mean the real number

is like one to five percent. And so one of the issues we're having is that when you talk about various facts, they have become politicized in various ways, and then if you question it, then you're questioning a team or a tribe. So I couldn't agree more with your sentiment that we have to settle on a few facts and a certain objective view of the world the extent we can measure it and say, Okay, these are the baselines, let's agree on them, and then let's go from there.

That's actually the essence of the message of the forward party is that, Look, just give me your baseline, give me what you want to achieve, and then let's compete on that. But no one really is competing on policy anymore. I talk to a guy today who's one of my new heroes. I'd like and admire you a lot, Scott, I like and admire this. This gentleman named Jason Saul. He started something called the Impact Genome Project and I

think it's incomegenome dot org. But what he does is he says, look, instead of buying activities, we should buy outcomes. So if I'm a foundation and I want a thousand kids to learn better, I just say I want a thousand kids to learn better. And then organizations then bid on that and say, like, you know, like what's that You're gonna give me a thousand bucks a kid Like

I can do that, give me a million dollars. I can do that, and then they audit it, and you can then have organizations that can deliver results then get the resources to do that. And Ja previously had worked in government, and he said that the government is often doing none of this. Foundations struggle with it. Where a government will put millions of dollars into a program, Did the program deliver results? Unclear, like no one really knows,

like the money got spent anyway. And then by the time that happens, then the government has its own interest in saying, well, of course it worked because by the way we spent the money and you know, I proved it and the rest of it, so that there's like a you know, a circularity. So what Jason's trying to do is say, look like, let's just try and figure out what the results you want are and then we can have a nonprofit deliver it maybe, or the government maybe,

or a company maybe. And I love this approach because it lines up with this fact based governance governance that you want, you know, and now, I mean, this is one of the problems is that your political incentives are not around this version of efficiency. And it's one of the frustrations we have is that you can tell your money into dysfunctional bureaucracies and systems, you don't get results

and then you get mad. Or then the Republican attitude is like cut it, cut it, cut it, and you're like, well, that's not really what I want. And then Democrats are like, you know, like to attack it is to attack you know, democracy itself or or something, and you could be like, well, you know, I can want these outcomes. It turns out that Democrats and Republicans all want the same outcomes, you know,

in slightly different orders. But those outcomes are jobs, schools, healthcare, public safety, slash, low crime, decent environment, and like those are the big ones. Now they get reshuffled a little bit if you're talking to Democrats or Republicans, but they're essentially the same, you know, they just have a couple of positions flipped. So if you could actually get to a point where you're competing on who's delivering on these things, that would be the game changer. But that's a very

very long distance from where we are now. Yeah, yeah, I love but I love that idea. So you started kind of going through like Maslow's hierarchy of needs there about the kind of needs that all humans want. And I've never heard anyone say that Republicans only want this subset of Maslow's needs and Democrats only want this subset

of maslow needs. You know, I would add to the list of the things you mentioned, like connections, like personal connections, like relationships, people that care about you, some sort of level of self esteem or some sort of healthy sense that you're reaching your goals. And a lot of those lower needs that you just mentioned are absolutely essential for being able to reach higher needs of self actualization. For sure.

What I loved about one of the things I love about your book is you have this whole section new measure for a New Economy, And I was like, yeah, you should see my notes in this. Yes, yes, yes,

because what gets measured gets counted or counts in some ways. Right, So if you say we're actually going to track pre and post test and interventions and political because when people are politicians are on the campaign trail, they say all sorts of things and no one holds them accountable for those things, right in a fact based way, in like

a like like who's like, how come? How come when people get elected to office, the first thing they hire isn't like a like a data scientist who like keeps them honest and tracks them starting from day one today to make sure that there are like all these measures are are statistically and significantly statistically significantly growing and practically growing with high effects sizes. How come we don't we don't put the mouth where the you know, put the

money where the mouth is there. Well, I confess I run for office and a data scientist was not the first person we hired. Is that like a two nerdy to nerdy of a suggestion. No, I mean we eventually hired one of the presidential for sure, but in the beginning you don't necessarily have the resource or the data,

but you get there. Certainly for governments you would want one. Yeah, So I see the the need for more effective use of data at the public level for sure, like we should be hiring squadrons of data scientists at the municipal level. M And so, you know, one thing that the people in the FO pop psychology have argued about is instead of looking at economic outcomes around the world, to look at life satisfaction outcomes. So that's that's one big call,

you know, within the within the field of posycology. And I went to like a UN meeting about that where they released a report to them where some countries are actually significantly changing those metrics and of what matters you know, and what they're kind of counting. What are some what are some of the major sort of new measures you think we could implement that that would really help with well being and psychological health in America, freedom from addiction

would be very high sense of public optimism. Right now, the American dream is dying. People feel like their kids have worse futures than they did, and in that environment, some very very terrible things will happen. Sad, I'm sorry, I feel like you just said. I feel like you just said that. I want to cry. That's like, so, sad is dying? Scott? Do you do you have kids yourself? Not yet? I didn't think so. So you know, it's

why didn't you think so? Well? I mean I remember from a previous conversation, I thank Scott, Scott, is you know, become a dad yet? Yeah? It was not an is not not a knock God your I'm joking. I know, I'm joking. Yeah, I'm sure in future father. So as as a parent, I mean, you you look and you see your kids and you kind of know that they're coming into a rock your world, and my kids will have a lot of advantages that a lot of kids,

other kids won't. I mean, you saw in my last book, I talked about how forty percent plus of American kids are born to single moms and other numbers where like you can just sense that there are all of these struggles baked in. A lot of kids don't really have a meaningful shot. In the old days, you know, maybe you don't need a college education to live a good life, but it's become increasingly difficult for folks who are the

lower end of the educational spectrum. And so you know, like that these are realities for a lot of people. A lot of this stuff opened my eyes when I was traveling the country as the CEO of Venture for America, because I went to Missouri, Louisiana, Alabama, Ohio, Michigan, like a bunch of plays I hadn't spent much time in before, frankly, and when you're get in these environments, you're like, oh, like, I'm starting to get a better sense of it. And you know, so when Trump won in sixteen, I saw

it as like a cry for help really in many ways. Yeah, yeah, A lot of people have a thankfully noticed that, but not enough. And I do. I do agree that a big part of the problem is the polarization of cable news. It's just it's nice to see you every now and then when I turn on CNN, I see you. Commentary I'm like, well, that's good. I'm glad they got they

got him on there. But it does feel like there's two different you know, when I flip through CNN and Fox News, I feel like I'm watching two completely different humans set, you know, with like worldviews and belief systems.

And you know what's wild, Scott is, I've now been on all the networks and there's really like a different energy or vibe, you know, like when you talk about like different even I feel like I'm visiting parallel dimensions, like I'm in like the Fox universe and then you know, I'm in like the CNN universe and like it is a little wild, and then even I see myself on the clips and like there's kind of a different vibe.

But it's also like it's like the same person Andrew Yang with like Fox TIRN and then like Ceing in Cairo. You know, it's like it's different. It's kind of interesting. Yeah, I mean that there's a broader point there about there's different vibes with different subcommunities. So I don't get a politician vibe from you, and I hope that you take

that as a compliment. I feel like I can present you with data, I can we can talk through the implications of certain facts and think through various policies, and that you're not necessarily leading from an ideology that you're committed to no matter what. So that's kind of a different vibe. And again I mean that in oh, I take it as a compliment, a high compliment from you, Scott.

You know, so much of politics seems to be about appealing to voters selfish instincts or or most immediate needs is probably a better way of putting it than selfish most immediate needs. How in the world can we change the incentive structure so we can get people caring about deep existential risks that are so far in the future.

So there's two things. One is, how do we get people to care about other people as much as they care about their own needs, you know, like making decisions and choices that may not necessarily affect their own satisfaction needs, but will help those who are really needy. And then the second is, how can we care about future gender people that we've never been met, that they aren't even alive yet, you know, like saving the planets, Let's look out for them. So I have some encouragement on this,

which isn't right now. It's not that people are self serving on a policy level right now, they're indulgent on a tribal level, where it could because they're going to be inflamed in that way. So you have the different media channels trying to ginu up and get you super mad about the outage on the other side. And so when you talk about the immediate need that's being met, it's really an emotional need or a tribal need, or

a sense of belonging. And so our challenge then is to build a tribe that cares about long term existential problems, that cares about the well being of the general public, that cares about solving problems in a meaningful and measurable way. And one reason I'm excited to have this conversation with you is I have a feeling that just about everyone that listens to you naturally kind of hearkens toward that tribe. And you don't need fifty one percent of Americans to

be part of that tribe. I'm saying you need ten percent. And I actually have a feeling that if you built a really strong five percent, you'd be in great shape. So that's so One of the insights from my book that I've taken probably too much to heart is that politics is tribal, and so when you are trying to create a new dynamic, then what you're doing is you're raising a banner and saying, hey, I've got a new tribe.

It's the forward tribe. And we're graceful and tolerant, and we like facts and we want to measure things, and we think tribalism is going to destroy us all. We think that it's the underlying system and that if you engage in this back and forth battle, no one's going to win, and it's going to make us all insane, and let's have intelligent conversations and maybe we can start a channel around that. So so that's the tribe. Man.

That's one reason why I'm joyful to be here with you, because I feel like you're one of the chieftains of this tribe without even knowing it. You know, it's like you know, you just you're just Scott. You you know, do the best work that you can every day. But that that is the hope I would give you, which is that if this stuff is all tribal, which it is, can we create our own tribe of people who are looking out into the horizon. I love that, you know,

because we are tribal humans. And I think that those who claim that, you know, there are people that are like, I'm not in any tribe. I'm I'm a political you know, I think are fooling them, deceiving themselves. I don't hate it, but it is funny Scott, where it's like, we have to build a tribe of non joiners because of the people who, let let's describe someone who's hyper rational. If you're hyper rational, it is irrational to get involved in politics.

You know, like let that sink in for just a moment where it's like, let's see I get involved, fifty percent of people will throw rocks at me. The odds of my actually pushing through one of these big changes like a little bit on the lowesst side. You know, I could invest my time in a new book and like the latest show and like, you know, like anything might spark joy. And then if someone starts talking politics to me, I can just like recede and being like you do you and you know, like I will like

what I just described is a perfectly rational approach. And so the challenge for one, and I'm proud that I played a role in this so at least some people is to say, look, you're being rational, thumbs up, It's awesome. There are a lot of us, so we can become

the tribe of rationality. And then when someone makes the tribal appeal, you can be like, you know what, I understand why you're so animated about that, but you know, like let's talk through, like you know what we could actually do to like improve that problem, Like you know, and if you want to vilify that entire crew of tens of millions of people, it's like, well, I'm sure there are some excellent people within any group of tens of millions of humans. No, I hear it. I totally

hear brother. Let's just think this through for a second, though, because I think that I take maybe a little bit different view in that I'm all about finding a universalism tribe that includes as many people as possibleunder it, I would almost prefer the rationality tribe seems too limiting to me. I would I would prefer like a humanistic tribe, or

like some sort of tribe where everyone rallies around. How can we help everyone in the society have fulfilled the same basic needs that we all care about as humans, sort of like a there are just certain human basic things that we all can rally around, because with the rationality one, you're going to have so much of society

not rallying around that. I'm saying, Oh, those those academic elites, you know, thinking smart, they probably think I'm stupid, you know, And that doesn't as long as you don't think anyone is stupid, which I happen not to, like I think, you know what I mean, but I do. But but you're a humanistic tribe too, You're in that tribe too,

like that exactly, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's one of the that's one of the things too that I was so proud of Scott on the presidential campaign where we attracted people that weren't political and weren't we're from every point in the socio economic spectrum. And I think it's because of the vibe. Like a lot of very regular people saw Yang and we're like, I think he's a regular person and he does not seem to look down or talk down to me or anyone. And I

like it. I'm into it, you know what I mean. Like I remember one thing that actually really did irk me is that when I was on the Democratic debate stage, they asked like, hey, have you made a friend that you would be surprising? And I said, well, I've made friends with this truck driver supported Trump, but now he's supporting me. And then the press was like, that's impossible, that's like a made up political thing, and then they had to find him and he was like, it's true.

He was like this the rest of it, because because in many ways the media wants to divide us into these like weird camps, and it's like, hey, like, no way, the educated Asian dude could be friends with a Trump supporting truck driver. It's like, I actually really like Fred. He's like a good dude. And you know, like, I'm sure if you lined up, frankly like a hunter Trump supporting truck drivers, I probably like more than one of them.

It's so true. It's so true. I think like likability is underrated and the need to the need to divide is overrated, you know, because you know, some people say to me things like you're too nice, Scott, like you should like you. This person believes in this you should just be mean to them, And it's like I don't know, Like I feel like I could go to I could

go to a Trump rally. I'm pretty convinced that if I went to one, I would make a lot of friends there without before even talking about politics at all, you know, just like like, hey, what are you all up to this weekend? Just treating just talking human to human right, And I think that there's something to be said. I'm going to stand by this, either something to be said by leading with what am I trying to lead with?

Leading with grace and inclusion, eating with like the universal human attributes that we all share in common, you know what I mean. Yeah, it's a lot of it is the media, man. I mean like, if you take the media out of the equation, would be in better shape. Agreed, Absolutely agreed. So why should we tax robots because they can't vote? No, I'm just kidding, because they're gonna do more and more work and if we don't capture some of that value, then we're gonna be a trouble. We're

entering a very strange economic zone anyway right now. Man, I mean people talk about this, but yeah, taxiing robot would help a lot. And AI, Yeah, you can throw AI you can in their robots tax them too, Yang the Ai. Yang's cool with Ai, but we should really tax it. I have one of my I don't tell many people. That's one of my majors undergraduate degrees is in human computer interaction at the card Gmail and the human computer interaction computers. That's pretty nerdy, Scott, Yeah, I know,

it's pretty nice. Why I don't tell too many people. But you know, there's great potential. There is also, you know, good and bad potential for how that can all turn out. So I really do like the idea of taxing that. And I like how you've pointed out throughout your whole campaign, for all your campaigns, the psychological effects of automatization and for a lot of people that's starting to feel useless in society. I mean the need to matter, man, that

is that's the big one, right. How do we get everyone in the society feeling a need that that need is fulfilled? Yes, the need to matter, the need to be valued. So I'm gonna run something byu you real quick, Scotts.

I had a conversation with Zach, my colleague, about this, and when you talk about the failure of mattering, there's like a phenomenon right now that I was trying to rest when I ran for president, and I talk about my last book that a lot of communities have gone blasted away economically, and a lot of them are rural and white, and so there's like a loss of meeting and purpose and they feel undervalued, and then Trump comes

engines them up. And then on the other side you have like a like a bit of a lack of sympathy, shall I say. And you know the Democrats, they tend to be in more educated, prosperous, urban, densely populated zones, and so that this challenge of having people find meaning, I think is the fundamental one. And then you have more and more people losing that sense of hope and optimism and fulfillment and feeling like you're in a world where you matter, and then some very very awful things

can transpire pretty quickly. I completely agree, so in many ways that the road has to be about a restoration of meaning. Now, I mean is that something a government can provide. I mean, it's debatable. The government, I think can help, but the challenges run very very deep. I mean, even just having leaders and politicians that through their rhetoric

inspires and unites is really underrated. Just that you know, even if like these things don't even turn into real policy changes, I mean that would of course be wonderful and nice. But so much of hope is practical and we need to make those policy changes, but a lot of it is psychological, and I just think there needs to be more of that messaging among politicians, you know what I mean? Yeah, oh you know, I do know.

And that is the level. That's the level we have to get to, my friend, like the personal psychological level. This is something that occasionally people turn to me for and it's something that I have not delved in do or focused on. I mean, I've gone through some things and done some work myself, but a lot of the solutions that I advocate are very macro, like I'm not

really like you know what I mean. I have some basic things that I do that I'm like, hey, make a list of things you're grateful for, get outside, do some exercise, call your mom, like you know, like I do say things like that an awful lot, which by the way, I totally endorse, and I do those things. But anyway, like you know, I had dinner with Marian Williamson the other night, and now she's like elevated at this self development. You know what I mean. She's a

self help grow which makes sense. And one of our proposals was like, hey, the country could kind of use a self help help grow right now. And I don't disagree. I'm like, yeah, Mary Hanna, they could use you a science based self help guru. Though you know something that's

I'm into it. I'm into it. Yeah. So you've already talked an extensive in other areas and venues about your human centered capitalism, that humanity is more important than money, that the unit of economy is each person nights dollar, and that markets exist a server common goals and interests. Love it. I was curious, how come in your six principles of the Forward Party you didn't add like if you ever add a number seven when you think about

adding human centered education? How come education kind of gets left off in a lot of these kinds of party principal initiatives. I'm into human centered education. I love what you're about. I know this is what you do, and I mean it heart It's heartbreaking what's happening in schools around the country right now. You know. I mean, you lived a version of a failing education system. We've got a lot of kids right now, they're getting traumatized, and yeah,

I would love to deinstitutionalize it and humanize it. Do you think what do you see of the role of the government in doing that or do you think it's more up to individual states and individual Yeah, like what do you think about like that that toggle between governmental versus state role in education. I would like to see the resources that are heading to schools be channel more effectively. The most impressive schools I've been a part of really

had a strong culture and leadership. Some of them were based in communities and whatnot. I think it's very hard to legislate that culture, you know what I mean? And we should be trying to reward measurements like if a school's producing, then you get behind it and you know, you rev it up put resources to work because they have a culture and a leadership and a bunch of

other things that are working. A good school should be treated like magic, be like how do we you know, expand the magic that reminds me of my just I don't know if you ever met Andrew Mangino at the Future Project I don't know anything. Anyway, he likes to put the magic into the education systems. That just made me think of that, and I hope you meet him some day. But anyway, I'm going to leave today on two quotes of yours that I'm hoping just inspires everyone

listening to this podcast, regardless of your political party. Our institutions are hanging by a thread. The challenge is to rebuild them as quickly as possible, to address the true needs of our time. If we actually want to rise to this challenge, we have no time to waste. Let's solve the real problems together. No one else is coming, There is no cavalry. It's only us. Let's move this country of ours, the one we love, and we'll leave to our children forward. Man, I can't thank you enough

Andrew for being on my podcast. But just for the energy and the goodness and goodwill and honesty and truth and integrity and grace that you put into this world. Thank you so much, Andrew. Thank you, Scott proudly consider you a friend. And yeah, like, let's take your vision, make it a reality as quickly as we can while we have this time. Man, before your kids arrive, get it done. It might be some time though, but thank you thanks for listening to this episode of the Psychology Podcast.

If you'd like to react in some way to something you heard, I encourage you to join in the discussion at thusycology podcast dot com or on our YouTube page thus Ecology Podcast. We also put up some videos of some episodes on our YouTube page as well, so you'll want to check that out. Thanks for being such a great supporter of the show, and tune in next time for more on the mind, brain, behavior, and creativity.