63: Finding Mastery

pleasure to have doctor Michael Gervais on the show. Michael is a high performance psychologist who works in the trenches of high stakes and environments. He hosts the podcasts Finding Mastery and works with the Seattle Seahawks on their head game. He even has been called their quote secret weapon. Hey, thanks so much for being on the podcast today, Mike. Yeah, it's good, Thank you so much. I'm not sure about

all that secret weapon stuff. And you know, it's like, really, the Seattle Seahawks is an organization of many people and highly talented people doing you know, a lot of different jobs, and it's such a complicated organization you know in football and pro sports, that there's no secret weapon really, is what I'm trying to say of course, I was trying

to be dramatic. I read an article about I read an article where they described you as such, but like to be fair to you, like there's a unique niche you have here and what you bring to this is I phrased it as head game. But you know that is a unique contribution to the team, right, Well, I would say that as humans, there really are only three

things that we can train. And we can train our craft, which most of us that are interested in pursuing, you know, mastery of craft or excellence in some domain understand that, and that's how we spend so much time training our craft. We can train our body, and in sports that's where majority of the time is spent training craft and training body. But as humans, we can only train three things, which leaves the mind. So you can train your craft, your body,

and your mind. And I you know, world class athletes and coaches and performers across many different domains all nod their head to how important the psychology of excellence is and the mental part of the game, if you will. And so it's not that it's some secret, it really isn't. It's making the complicated science of psychology and making that

understandable and then doable from a training standpoint. And that's kind of how I think about taking all the insights and wisdoms and science based information from people in both of our fields for a long time and then figuring out ways to be able to make it simple and trainable. No, that sounds really great, and I totally empathize with the idea that it's not easy taking the complex science and applying it to such a practical realm, or a lot

of practical realms apply it to. Let's pick some of this science and let's let's like, you know, nerd out a little bit about some of it and how you go about translating something. So let's see which one should we pick. Why don't we start with grit because that's you know, there's already connection there between the Seattle Seahawks

and angel duckwors right. Yes, So that's a It's a great story in and of itself, is that coach Carol saw one of Angelia duck Horse videos online and said this is phenomenal, and he said this is there was one line on it, and there it was like a prediction line that she had that grit is the number one determining factor for success. And so he said, okay, well, let's find more about this, because grit as a word,

as a concept is an important concept. You know that that's a and I'm not talking about the scientific part of it yet. I'm just talking about the word, what the word stands for for so many people being gritty, doing the gritty work, right, And so there's a there's a thought about doing difficult work that it immediately conjures up. But that's not what the science, you know, is really about.

And even according to Angela, doctor Duckworth, and so he calls Angela and then there's a little bit of time lapse between they before they got back with each other, and then when Coach Carol looked up the video again, that line was gone. It was removed. So they had a fun little conversation about that. And yes, she came

up and visited us. And it's been it's been wonderful to hear from the kind of the horse's mouth, if you will, not that doctor Duckworth is a horse, but that, you know, colloquial saying that she's she's got such insights about how grit works. And there's great controversy in the field. Not great. There's controversy in the field about like what is it because it's a new idea and we just learned so much from her. Yeah, absolutely, and she's a friend of mine and I respect her work a lot.

Let's talk about how that gets translated though. So on the one hand, so the science shows that there are these self report questtionnaires that measure your consistency of interest and your perseverance towards a goal or long term it's like you know, long term stamina, so to speak. And people who report on these questionnaires high scores. It does tend to predict high performance in certain areas and high expertise expertise development. How do you take those kinds of

findings and then try to strengthen grit among players? Okay, great, So first of all, let's let's be clear that grit, the way that we talk about grit or think about grit, it is probably no different than your insights, which is passion and perseverance for long term goals. So we're looking, let's just deconstruct that. And so that's how you make anything applied, right, deconstruct what the science is suggesting. And if the deconstruction is that we've got three variables there.

There's probably more, but at least three on the surface, which is passion, perseverance, and long term goals. So the first thing that we do as an organization is we

want to see if players have grit. So part of the selection process that our general manager and scouts do a fantastic job is figuring out the personality, figuring out the whole picture of anybody that they're going to bring into the Seattle Seahawks, and grit is one of those characteristics that we find to be valuable enough to screen for.

And so what we're looking for is an understanding of their passion and understanding of their ability to persevere, which is, you know, playing the long game and sticking with it for a long time even when it's difficult. And then do they have long term goals, like do they have clarity about even what those are? And so then we'll wait those three variables, along with a couple other variables that surround grit to get like almost a grit makeup

for somebody. And we're not doing it on the subjective questionnaire, and we're doing it through observation over time, interviewing people around them that know them, whether it's high school or college coaches, family members. We're curious about grit, So we think about it a lot, we talk about it a lot, and we're trying to create it almost like a grit profile for person as one of the many metrics for selection.

That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, it almost would be absurd to ask all aspiring Seattle Seahawks to fill out the self report questionnaire. I would I would fill it if it would get me on a spot in the NFL. I would. I would check all fives. That's right, five five five five, Yeah, of course, And so that's you know, So that's why we're not doing it that way. But then then the concept can you train grit? Can

you amplify it? Can you cultivate it? And certainly an environment has much to do with with teasing out or celebrating or amplifying whatever the right word is for the concept of grit. So culture does matter. And if the culture has a prevailing thought that when it's hard, we do something else, then we're probably not going to be able to train grit. But if the prevailing if the prevailing message is we do difficult things, that's what shapes

us that's what makes us. Let's stay in it. And that is part of the culture that Coach Carroll has created with his coaches and organization is that grid is valued. We talk about it, think about it, and we demonstrate when grid is being expressed on a regular basis. And I'd say that, you know, in fairness, the selection team of finding people that are gritty, by the time you get to the Seattle Seahawks, you already have majority of

people already have it. So then the job of training it is much easier for us because they already came into the door with it. You know. Yeah, they're almost gritty about increasing their grit. Yeah, one thousand percent, not for the sake of in and of it. It's not because they want to be grittier. It's because they have passion that is fueling the hard work and the perseverance. And it's the passion that's the one. It's not the

perseverance like doing difficult things. Okay, that's like step one, Maybe that's step two, because step one is like do you have a vision of what the future could look like for you? A long term goal? But it's the passion that's the one. No, I'm totally with you there. I I have great appreciation for the passion aspect, and I'd like to unpack that more like what does like what do you think is the common sort of like if you pull back all the layers really get beneath

the surface. These NFL players, what is their passion? What is that passion? Is it, you know, to dominate, to win an award like a prestigious public recognition? Is it fame? Is it? Is it purely intrinsic like a love of the game, And of course it probably differents from person to person, is the obvious answer. But I should love your your you your your hand on the pull, so to speak. I'd love to hear what your thoughts aren't

like really like, what is that passion there? Okay, so we're talking about intrinsic and extrinsic rewards or drive, right, we're talking about the for a motivational construct. So yes, it's both of those. And now if we just follow the science, the science will say things like, you know, we want, we want the internal motivation. Internal drive is more valuable if you will, for long term goals than

excuse me, then external drive. Now, the truth is that people on the ground that are doing the difficult stuff on the world stage that are world leading. There's both. And what we're looking for though is imagine scale one to ten on internal drive and scale one to ten on external drive. What I'm particularly looking for is I would love to see a ten on one scale and a nine on the other, oh, which which yeah, obviously

internal drive being higher. And the reason that we want we want to you know, bank on the internal drive is because as soon as somebody gets the external reward, whether it's attention or fame or money or you know, recognition in some kind of way or whatever, as soon as they get that thing, then you have to help

them recreate a new thing to chase after. And that becomes challenging, That becomes like they got to continually grease that wheel, as opposed to helping people get to the internal drive and celebrating the long game for what it feels like to grow, to be tested, to be in the amphitheater, to know that you're going to come up short,

but still let it go anyway, you know. And what I'm talking about is like taking shots and risks and putting yourself into the unknown where most people most people are so terrified of the unknown, that they play it safe, they play it small. We've got a mental condition called anxiety where you know, fifteen to thirty percent of Americans suffer from anxiety, which is a chronic you know, I know you know this, But like the thought that the future is so scary that I'm going to panic in

such a way now that it changes my physiology. It's uncomfortable to be inside of me. And that is essentially what anxiety is, both whether it's cognitive or somatic anxiety technical terms for thinking anxiety or feeling anxiety. And that what we can learn from those that are on the world stage doing difficult things is that the race the unknown and they lean into it. They lean into it because they know that that's where they become who they're

meant to become. And so that's so we want that we want to light up the passion to embrace the unknown, to lean into it. And in that space, literally the space of the unknown, that's where we figure out who we really are. And in those moments is when our inner dialogue becomes so loud, it is so clear one day, one day, Scott, that we'll be able I think to be able to like hear thoughts. We'll be able to

see thoughts maybe maybe. And it's in that, it's in those moments of uncertainty where that that voice is the loudest inside of us. Oh well, you're saying such great stuff, Michael, I just I'm just making it up. No, I mean, we all are, right, I mean, but it's still it's still great stuff. So, by the way, Michael or Mike, what would you prefer? Oh yeah, it does not matter. Like, Okay, my friends call me Mike, so call me Mike. Oh yeah, hey,

we're friends. So so look, Mike, I like a lot of things are saying and when I say, I know in response you were saying it's it's it's it's not I'm not saying it pretentiously. I'm saying it like right on, brother, Oh yeah, yeah yeah sure. Like like like I I think, so what this is good and I and I appreciate you giving me this opportunity to really discuss at this level of granularity this stuff. So I would say, embracing the unknown is something separate from grit. So obviously you

wouldn't say great is the only thing that's important. You would say there are other things that are important. Well, hold on, hold on, hold on, I think that. So let me let me see if I can make the stitch there. It's the embracing the unknown that gets in the way of passion. So now we're back into Now we're back to grit, so embrace. Wait, let me say that they're better those that struggle with embracing the unknown, that their system, their their internal system becomes fit, tagued

and scared. And so those are the two things that get in the way. Or it's like the heavy blanket that covers the fire of passion. So passion is that inner fire, and it's fatigue and fear of the unknown, of not being good enough, of coming up short, of letting others down, of looking stupid. It's that that gets in the way of passion. And that's why passion is I think. I think passion is the tougher not to

crack on grit. Oh, definitely, But I would say there's great value, So I think what you're saying is right. And I think there's also great value to not be reductionistic, to separate different constructs. So I don't think that. So, for instance, I study something personality, trade openness to experience which I don't think that it's reduced to grit, but I like the idea that one can fuel the other that I really like that idea. So, but I also

think they can be at odds sometimes. And so I mean, what do you have about the situations where someone like a player is really high in embracing the unknown and really is curious to like voraciously curious about questioning the coach about understanding every aspect of the game, and that gets in the way of their single minded grit towards

one specific aspect of the game. What do you do with that seeming tension, Because I do think there is that tension sometimes it's so funny because you're right, and

that's rare, believe it or not, that is rare. Interesting, it's not rare in your mind or my mind, because we like to think about things, not that athletes don't think, but if we're like to create some sort of scales about us and risk takers in dangerous environments, let's say, let's like amplify it out right that they are the doers and we're the studiers of the doers, and so there is a difference in the way that they approach they approach doing is that they are able to lock

in and really bite down or sit down, as we'd like to say, in the moment. And so study people that study it and research it and want to understand it, we ask more questions. Not that they don't ask questions, but their questions are to help them be able to sit down and really drop their weight in the present moment where people like you know scientists or applied scientists are thinking about how does this all work and how does it make sense? So the hardest thing is to

help the seeker to know when to not seek. That's a really tough thing to do. And I will say that most people in professional sports are better at the rest of the world, even maybe that's such a bold statement at being able to turn off that questioning mind and drop into the doing. Yeah, And I mean, the the obvious idea to talk about here is mindfulness. And I know you've done mindfulness training with the players, right.

Mindfulness is just a you know, it's like such a foundationally important human concept, like yes, if we're if we're not, And there's a zeitgeist right now about mindfulness and it's part of me is like nauseated by it. And part of me is excited about it, and part of me is like really concerned about like the wisdom that mindfulness can bring. And if we're I'm hearing phrases like hacking mindfulness and I oh, I hate that it's hacking anything

is a problem for me. Yeah. Yeah. So so that being said is like, yes, mindfulness is at the center because the two most important parts of mindfulness is increased awareness and the second part is revealing inside and wisdom. Now that's a Those are beautiful concepts with a very simple approach that is not easy to do, and it requires people to start over a thousand times, you know, in three minutes. You know, it's a constant starting over process to come back to now, to come back to

now again. And we can get into the tactics and the weeds if you want. But you know, yes, mindfulness is at the center of what has been an accelerant for for me, and so I love talking about it and sharing it. Yeah me too, man I I just recently finished an eight week Mindful of Stress based reduction course and it's helped me greatly with just having mental clarity, and I mean it's it's very you know, clear, clear, that like, that's someone in that kind of high stakes.

Like you said, they're in it. You know they're in it. They're in the moment when you're on the field and you're like passing the ball. You can't be like I'm very curious about you know, you know, like you can't really consciously rationally deliberate too much in that moment. So you have to really kind of like increase that awareness. And you said the other thing is wisdom. I think another thing which probably we could fold under wisdom, but is that is non judgment is having a non judgmental

form of awareness or form of attention. And I could imagine that's really important as a player to not I mean, if you're beating your let's say you make a bad pass and you're just like showing woe self compassion and you're beating yourself up over it, you're getting out of the moment, right, You're getting like like your game is

going to is going to suffer. Right. What we're working to do for all humans like to amplify our gifts and our talents that we've refined and our skills, and to really pursue a life that has meaning, not just a celebration of the doing, but really has meaning is we want to try to try we want to try to increase the frequency of getting into the center of now, the center of this moment. And there's a concept that

I think psychology has wrong, and it's pop psychology. And I'd love for you to push back on this, and because I don't get to have these types of conversations very often, so please push back on this. But I think we're yeah, good, good good. I think we're wrong in the thought that that our mind can go to three places. You can go to the past, the future, or now. That's an easy story. It's good for a

third grader to understand that. The I think the more accurate experience is that there's the center of now, and there's the fringes of now or the ineffective fringes of now, and our mind is always in the present moment, but it might not be effective because we're using resources to think about what has happened in the past that hasn't worked out well, or what might happen in the future that might not work out well. And so we're working.

Our work is to come to the center of now and to come back to the center over and over and over and over and over again, until possibly we slip into some sort of flow state or you know, the experience where we're really at one with the present moment and our body, which is a phenomenal thing. But when we start, yeah, when we start to entertain what if, what could, then it's not that we're not in the moment,

we're just not effective in it. Our mind doesn't like listen, there's lots of complicated, you know, polymath conversations about what is now, and so let's not let's not go down that rabbit hole right now, like the epistemological study of knowledge, right let's not do that. But let's say, like the conceptually, it's not that our mind goes somewhere else. It's that we move to an ineffective experience of now when we're judging. It's just clunky. So when we're judging, I think, is

not the same thing as when we are mine. You know, we can I can go to the future, it'd still be non judgmental. So I woulant to quate being out of the moment with judgment, would you? I know, I think all of them are still in the moment, but less effective and less potent to the to respond to the demands of the environment. If my mind is worried, or it's entertaining something that's happened, or it's judging, they're just there for me. They're all the same. They're pulling

us away from the center of now. So I want to just totally make sure I understand what your argument. So you would say that imagination, like our ability to imagine ourselves and maybe rehearse a future of ourself, is less efficient than being completely in the center of the moment. Yes, if if, if while we're doing that imagination, we're supposed to be driving, we're supposed to be eating, we're supposed

to be catching, you know, a baseball. Right, But in other case, but not absolutely no, no, no, no no, there's wonderful times to sick and even structure or unstructured time to be able to muse. Then I'm with you, future, Yes, yes, then I'm with you. I don't know, I don't know. If you were making a blanket statement that all forms of momentary thinking that take us away from complete absorption on the on the present are inefficient, I want yeah, no, no, yeah, yeah,

I think we're okay. No, we're now we're kind of lockstep on the same concept, and I'm I'm curious if you agree with that. I'm totally trying to get in your head to uh, to see the world the way you see it. I think it's a very I haven't heard that argument been made before. Now. Yeah, I know we're not talking. I know we're not talking about it right now. Not enough people are talking about it. Yes, I could see that being I. However, did I just

have an inefficient moment? Yeah, that's good, So I could see that being the gates. But I'm trying to see how it links up to our latest neuroscience understanding of these different mental states of consciousness because they do draw on different brain networks, so they can be different differentiated.

So you know, I would in my in my worldview, the more you kind of see this activation in the executive attention networks or even dorsal attention networks, that's clearly correlated with your view of the outside world, your your your ability to like really focus on the outside world and ignore inner chatter. But the more that you kind of go inward and then think about the future or the ruminate about the past, you tend to see more

this default mode network activity. So these these different states of conscious can be differentiated at a neuroscientific level. But you're saying that that's kind of irrelevant to the point you're saying there's still conceptually all different parts of of the same like bullseye circle. It's it's all the same bullseye just different gradations of awareness. That's exactly right. I would say yes to that. I can see that argument. So, look, that's a new argument, and I don't want to I

want to be mindful. I don't want to reject it out of hand or even accept it out of hand. But I think, Okay, what do we get? What? What do we get? Like? What what is a bias? If we shift our Let's just do a thought experiment, like, what is that bias? If we shift from this prior understanding of now I'm in the moment, now, I'm in ten years from now in my head? Now I am ten years ago and I'm stuck ten years ago in my head versus a shift to this metaphor that you're

putting forward. What do you think it bias us? What do you think what was the last part of the question.

If we shive to your bas what is a bias? Yeah, what's the benefit that I think what it does for me at least is that it helps me to understand that I have a responsibility to be here now and my job as a human with a mind and a body and a craft and maybe a spirit and we can talk about that in a minute, is that my responsibility to my loved ones, to my craft, and to myself maybe to nature is to be in the present moment as often as I possibly can, especially when I've

made a commitment that the thing that I'm going to go do, play piano, be in a conversation, draw something on a canvas, that that's the thing that I'm going

to do. Is that when I start to entertain and have these fragmented hard drives running in the background of what could go wrong or whatever whatever, it helps me to remember that no, no no, no, my job is to come back to this moment and that fragmented worry about what could go wrong if I draw a funny line on the canvas, is that that's actually decreasing my ability

to be here now. And so what does it help me do remind me of the responsibility to myself and to others to be fully present as often as I possibly can when I make a commitment to be in the present moment. So it's that's a little esoteric of what I just said, but it's a reminder of responsibility

for me. No, I think that's good. And I think the really important clarification there is the last couple of words you just said, you know, when it is my commitment to be in it because they're but but like fifty percent, at least fifty percent of our life, it doesn't require being present to our outside awareness. So there's still great value to be present to our internal awareness or present you know, like mindful daydreaming I call it. You know, can be just as valuable, right, Oh my

goodness for a shore. Yeah, like yeah, and then even better if you do it without judgment, because who knows where it's going to take you. It's that little critic it says that's nuts, that's no good, that's stupid, And we have most of us that little critic. And I'd love to tell you a fun little story is that there's an athlete that I work with or that I used to work with. It was like fifteen years ago, and we're talking about the inner critic, and she goes, oh, oh, yeah, yeah.

I said, you sound like you have a relationship with your inner critic, and she says, yeah, it's I see it as a bird. And this bird comes and sits on my shoulder and it just shits all over me, and so I call it. It's a shipbird. It sits on my shoulder. Sorry if you got to edit this out. It sits on my shoulder and it shits on me, and it's a shipbird. So what I've been working on doing is just showing that ship bird off. And then yeah, and then what she does is that she'll spot it

in the tree. This is all metaphorically. She spots it in the tree and sees the bird coming down to sit on her shoulder, and it only does one thing, and so then she pivots her shoulder so it doesn't land, and then she's able to spot it in the tree and like make it so that that shipbird does not land on her shoulder, and eventually the ship bird goes away. You know, Like it's a really you know, thoughtful way or fun way to think about the inner dialogue and

awareness of that inner critic, if you will. Yeah, And I think it's so interesting that we tend to see greater beauty in the world the more we can quiet those birds in our head. I don't I mean like, I mean, we've had much worse cursing wise, So I really I don't know why I'm concerned about that. But listen to Mark Manson's interview. But I might even go say the title of that interview, but yeah, so we actually tend to see more beauty when our when our when we want to pay attention and we want to

see beauty and our inner mind. But there's I just I push back against us going too far in the in the mindfulness direction where we start to treat imagining the human imagination and you know, the beauty that's inside us as well. The beauty of our own thoughts can be just as beautiful as the beauty of what you're paying attention to outside ourselves. Well, there's two basic forms that I've come to appreciate, and I've just learned that

there might be a third one. But over the last twenty years, I've come to understand two basic forms of mindfulness. One is single point focus, and that's like focusing on one thing over and over and over and over again.

And then the other is contemplative, and contemplative mindfulness is observing without judgment, and so that can be observing something outside of you, certainly and just kind of watching where your attention goes, but usually with eyes closed, you're observing thoughts and watching the stitching of thoughts and looking forward to how one thought will shape or shift or link to another thought. And when you take the critical lens off, it's like this wild ride and it really is imagination.

And then the third type that I'm recently exposed to, because I've always only thought about this as a performance approach, which is mental imagery. And so I was listening or learning from a teacher in mindfulness and he says, no, no no, no, you got to consider this third type, which is imagery about compassion or imagery about something and being kinded kindness. Yeah, and so just that you can do imagery there rather

than doing some sort of contemplative approach around it. So what you just talked about is like the imagination piece is actually maybe the second and third approach to mindfulness. I like that. And yes, it's like controlled breathing meditation where you have like a specific thing that you focus

on whether it's a mantra your breath. Then there's open monitoring awareness meditation, and then there's this like loving kindness, and so I like that these three, and you know, I like to kind of mix and match all three depending on what I what my needs are. You know, there's some intro research showing that controlled breathing meditation red shows reduction leads to reductions in creativity in divergent thinking,

whereas open monitoring awareness shows increases in divergent thinking. Of course, we having kindness will always chose increases in capassion, There's no doubt about that. But you know, I bet, like when you work with the players, do you guys like like help them with different ways of different states of conscious depending on what their specific goals are in the moment. We blend both right there. I don't know a human really, I don't know a human that can't benefit, especially in

modern times, from learning how to gate out noise. And so that's why single point I'd love to read the research, if you don't mind flipping it to your audience, and myself like that research about single point focus reduces divergent thinking. I can get the line of thinking. I can understand that thought, however, I would say I haven't met a human especially on the world stage, where deep focus is required to do the thing that you've invested your life

efforts toward. Deep focus is required, and it's the noise from the environment and the noise from within that creates the distraction. So training deep focus is a really powerful skill. I totally disagree. So I think that when we're talking about let's stop this conversation, what a boring conversation if we just like agreed everything. But like you're dealing the

world of high performance expertise, there's clear goals. But like you know, when you study creativity, you stay like artists, you study that kind of process, you you find that creativity does not come from deep focus in the moment. It comes from that like like I think you're underestimating the power of that noise that you know, the controlled

chaos of creativity. Yeah, it's not all chaos, but it's also it's also not all just focusing on the moment, because create our greatest insights creatively tend to come when we're not focusing on the problem. It's when we have maybe already like amassed all that knowledge and have focused but it's the toggling. I'm just saying, it's the toggling back and forth that leads to great insights, not just deep focus. Yes, yes, yes, okay, yeah, yes, So can

we disagree? No? Maybe maybe on a fringe party. You've made a very strong statement about Yes, I haven't met anyone. This is the statement, right, I don't know people that can't that don't benefit from training deep focus. That's the statement.

And so then single point mindfulness training is one way to train deep focus, but that I don't think should ever be at the cost from being able to cognitively shift and to have increased theta brain waves so that we can get into that kind of silly, little distracted, sleepy space in our brain. I wouldn't say that we we want to move away from those in and of itself. Deep focus we know when I watch me on this one.

So this is back to you, okay, right, So deep focus is the entry point, along with challenge and risk into flow state and flow state. During flow state, the most optimal state of human can be, and imagination is wonderful. It's all of that is enhanced because we're on time in a different way. So if we think about increasing the frequency of flow state to amplify creativity and imagination. Maybe maybe deep focus is one of the ways to

unlock it. Yeah, it definitely is a contributor, a major contributor. Like totally, I get your point about like not you know about the importance of it, and but mind wandering is also really important. I think we underestimate the value

of mind wandering. I love it. I love that thought because you know, add people can have like these wildly creative things, right, Yeah, they've been shown to be more creative sometimes, that's right, and and there's a challenge for them to be able to execute on it, right, So that's right. Yeah. So it's like the there's a duration of focus and an intensity of focus, and then those are valued skills in the in out of themselves, but

never at the cost to be able to wander. So I think the way that I think about it is like, let's have as many tools, mental tools, mental skills that we possibly can develop. And like when I need a hammer, I need a hammer. When I need you know something else, I need that tool, a screwdriver, whatever. And then what happens I think for people is when they train different tools, is that they have better volitional control to let go or to lock in. And when that happens, like I'll

just see some beautiful things take place. Absolutely, man, I mean that that's the key. There is the flexibility of attention. Being able to control your attention is different than than like being a dictator of your attention. So how do you how do you help people with with both variants of control? I'm sorry of attention which is locked in intense long term duration, as well as the ability to shift and muse without judgment. Are you using mindfulness as well?

Are you doing I am? I am I I. Mark Burdon as well has has worked with people the ADHD to do mindfulness training with them and has shown really good improvements. I just don't want to throw the baby away with the bath water. A lot of people, you know, treat and I don't think you do, but a lot of people treat mindfulness and mind wandering as though they're opposites when they're actually they're actually different. They're parallel dimensions.

And you know, I think you totally agree with that, and you know, they treat it like their opposites, and it's the it's the contemplative mindfulness. Sorry to interrupt It's the contemplative mindfulness without judgment that allows for the wandering and the anticipation and excitement and the anxiousness often that comes to, whoa, I just stitched that thought with that person. Oh what does that mean? You know? And it's like and that's all the judgment piece that gets us like

amplified with emotions. But taking out the judgment and just watching the stitching of thoughts is the wandering. And it's a wandering, yeah, And that is that is the the process that really I think without the first deep focus, I don't think that we can hang on long enough to get to the second, which is the non judgmental awareness of the stitching of thoughts and concepts to reveal

insight and wisdom. Right, So you do use the defocused as the necessary but not sufficient condition, correct, So okay, So I like that. One of my favorite pastimes is mindful daydreaming, where I just you know, like you when you when you sit down on a beautiful grass and you know, grassy field and you look up at beautiful

sky at night at the stars. Well, I like to close my eyes and just look at all my my mind wandering as different stars in the sky and just look at them and non judgmentally, just like I don't judge stars. I don't say ooh that stars more is bigger than that one, you know, like I just you know, just just stare at all these thoughts wherever they arise, and just you view them non judgmentally. I love doing

that sometimes. And if we take that concept that you just share with us and then layer it onto something I think most of us had was a fourth grade experience where we were doing that when we were supposed to be listening to the teacher, right, we're staring out and gazing into the you know, into the field or whatever out the window. That was me. That was me. Yeah. So there's like there's a time and place and to be able to wander and a time and place to

lock in. And if we're not training those different attentional uh facets, if you will, then we become our default drive, becomes what we're born with, and that might not be good enough to become your to express your potential. That's a really crazy thought, but that's why training it is the way to frontload, so that when you're in the environment that you want to be in, that you can bring the best version of your attention. Yeah, yeah, no, I hear you. You want to bring and it's your

best self. It's so hard. Why is it so hard? It's so hard? Why do we have a whole industry to try to understand this because it's all invisible and it's so fricking hard. But if we can just lock in on like three things that we'll do every day to train our mind, it's just a I think it's a wonderful set of habits to develop. Oh, I think so as well, totally. I mean, you can blame natural selection for giving us so many modules or so many competing drives that you know, it's like they're all shouting

at us. I want to do this, I want to do this, I want to do this, and our best self doesn't even have a chance to, you know, listen to itself. That that's heavy. I don't even know what you just said. That's really okay. Well, this has been a really interesting interview. Are there any other specific, uh like concepts or constructs that you try to apply with the people the athletes that you work with that you

want to talk about? Yeah, I mean, maybe let's do it over another conversation, because there's so many I mean, let's talk about love, Let's talk about the razors edge. Let's talk about you know, how how to operate when it is dangerous. And we all have dangerous moments in our lives, whether it's the intimacy of saying the difficult thing, or putting your hand up, or going putting your hand up in a boardroom, or going for it on a business venture, whatever it might be, you know, parenting when

we're when we're fatigued and agitated. There's there's so many concepts that that that we can learn from people in the amphitheater on the world stage that resonate with all of us. If we can just get through that they're not born this way. They might their genetic height is probably you know, baked, but they're not born this way. The mental skills, we don't come out of the womb with a certain faculty. We have to develop and train them over time. Some people have a leg up at birth,

you know, ad D versus deep focus. But we can cultivate and learn these and so, you know, love is one that I love talking about because it's just so Germane to all of us. Yeah, but you just open up like so many cancer worms there like an additional love. You also brought up the nature nurture debate. Why don't we end talking about the nature nurture debate? Will table all those other beautiful topics, because I really am looking forward to keeping the conversation going and we don't have

to compress at all right now. But the nature nurture thing is interesting because I think, you know, a lot of people set up a false dichotomy that you're is it either born or is it you know, is it learned? And then as you said something very sensible there, you said, you know, so people do have a leg up, people leg up through environmental opportunities, but people also have genetic leg up in any of these psychological dispositions. But do you fear that you ever downplay genetics too much? Well,

good question. Do I downplay genetics? I don't think so. I think I see genetics amplified as the process of becoming and that's what we want to do. Is like, so I'm you know, I'm a normal sized human being, right and and if I wanted to become a great suma wrestler, it's like it's just not And I match up against a eight hundred pounder. It's just not it's not gonna work. It's not happening, no like, And so I can train my ass off eat right, get around

the greatest coaches. I can put in all of the real hard yards and amplify every psychological trait that you and I found to be so interesting and intriguing. But if my genetic priming is not does not fit well with the thing that I care most about, then it doesn't mean I don't have a life that doesn't have meaning and interest and passion and all that. But getting the output to express the potential that I have within me,

it's likely to be minimized. So genetic. The way I think about genetics is we all have it, and then part of the journey of life, our life journey in the early years, is trying to figure out, like, how can I use this genetic coding I have, you know, what is the best way for me to apply my efforts, you know, in loving relationships as well as in a craft. And the craft might be loving relationships. I'm not I'm not saying that's not it, but you know, how do

we use our genetic coding to amplify our potential? Yeah, that's that's a very sensible statement. But it seems a contradict, like you said, like you made this dichotomy between them. Well, you said you're just not born with it. You know you said that, And what what is the it you're referring to? Because you are born with certain things, you know, you are born with like certain warning capacities or certain potentialities. Did I say ford that's Did I say that in

reference to the suma wrestling idea? I was one. I think you're just talking in general in general. You're like like all like everything in life. Oh, it's not you're you're not born with it. I don't know what I was talking about. I think, yeah, yeah, what I would like to say again then, is that like I wouldn't I'm not born with large bones so large that I can pack on big muscle around it and then and then amplify that with a great diet and a great

whatever to be able to do suma wrestling. So when I said I wasn't born with it, maybe I was thinking that's how I usually think about it. Got it would be like the large frame if we're talking about sumo wrestling. Oh gotcha, gotcha Okay, so you deal with people who are so high performance already, and so you get a view of their world in a way that would be different than if you were training a random

population of people to be professional football players. What do you think, how much do you think you're missing out on in terms of dimensions that are important to reach that point because you're already dealing with a group of world class people who those things, they already have that maximum level. Oh yeah, yeah, cool question. I don't think.

I think that on the world stage, whether it's at the Olympics, or it's an action sports you know, surfing or snowboarding or traditional stick and ball sports across if you take a swath across all those, including artistic expression like the performers on stage now that are globally recognized, that everything, everything is heightened. And as soon as we begin to think that we have it all well understood and there's no more growth, we fall flat. So everything

is heightened, including the need to grow. And so just because they are on the world stage and we're doing things that are maybe world leading, the need and intensity and importance of growing is amplified as well. And for example, the one hit wonder that comes out, that can't find the next hit, that can't find the inspiration or the way to string together words or musical notes that feel beautiful to that person because they're so critical or judged

by themselves first, or fearful of the outcome. So that gets in the way of the growth process. It's part of the process. And it's you know, it's not that we want to shy away from from going forward because we're going to deal with some sort of inner pain or external pain. It's that on the world stage, I'll say it if I can say it more simply, on the world stage, everything is amplified, including the need and

the arc of growth. I love that. I want to end there because growth is perhaps one of my favorite words of them all. I like progression better than growth. And we'll save that for the next our next conversation. Hey, that sounds good. Hey, I want to thank you for your obvious humbleness and wisdom and for being so open as well to being able to discuss this truthfully and honestly.

So thank you, beautiful love. I love this conversation. So thank you for inviting me, and I love what you've done, and so for amplifying and celebrating the voice of psychology. So thank you and look forward to many more, hopefully me too. Thanks for listening to The Psychology Podcast with doctor Scott Barry Kaufman. I hope you found this episode

just as thought provooking and interesting as I did. If you'd like to read the show notes for this episode or here past episodes, you can visit the Psychology Podcast dot com. Oh do