52: Reducing Racial Inequalities in Gifted Education

have doctor Joey Lawson Davis on the podcast. Doctor Davis is a career educator with over thirty years of experience in varied roles classroom teacher, district, program coordinator of Gifted Services, state level director of Gifted Services, author, researcher, consultant and assistant professor of education, and director of the Center for

Gifted Education at the University of Louisiana Lafayette. She's now serving as Associate professor and Chair of Teacher Education at Virginia Union University, and her first book was called Bright, Talented and Black, A Guide for Families of African American Gifted Learners. Hey, joy Ah, Scott, how are you? How you doing it? How are you good? Good? I'm good that was one of the longest bios I've ever given any of you have to do all that could you

deserve it? So we're longtime Facebook friends and we have a whole bunch of mutual colleagues and things, and I'm a huge admirer of your research, and i thought we could talk about it today. Okay, well that sounds good. I'm excited to share this work whenever I have an opportunity. So, you know, you tell me what it is you want to know most, what is it your most interious in and I'll just try to respond. Great. So, I know you're really passionate about the work you do, and it's

very obvious it comes from a very authentic place. Is there sort of a story of how you got involved in this particular line of research and is there any sort of back specific backstory to this, Yes, that sure is a backstory, Scott. First of all, my own story as a gifted child growing up early on in an urban environment where I was exposed to, you know, more

comprehensive education. You know, we had an arts program that was very, very nurturing, and we also had opportunities for acceleration, and that was in the northeast in Newark, New Jersey, and then my family moved from Newark in the mid sixties down to Virginia into a segregated schooling environment where I was in the rural area, small school, limited sources, very very passionate teachers, of course, but very limited resources.

So it was a shift in my own schooling as a child, and it really struck me that there are individuals around the nation. Even at that time as a kid, I was thinking, I didn't know that children went to schools like this, you know, I was thinking then I said, so, why is it that these children don't have the same kinds of resources and access to resources that children in the more urban, more suburban areas have. And so that

was a long time ago. And then as I continued on in school, I became a school leader and someone who always felt the need to speak up. Let me fast forward into getting into gifted education as a discipline. I'm in the rural area with a principal who needed a teacher to volunteer to go to a workshop at the College of William and Mary that was going to introduce teachers in the state of Virginia to a new

mandate from the state to serve gifted children. So again he came to me and said, Jory, do you think this is something you'd be interested in? And I said, of course, and so I went and that's how I

began my career and gifted in. It was actually the Richeson conference that William and Mary again hosting many many years ago, and they brought in people from all over the country who were in critical thinking skills, you know, pedagogy and research, and those individuals who were early in the in the field of gifted it around, you know, assessing children, developing the appropriate curriculum. So that was, oh

my gosh. That was back in the eighties when I first went to that conference, and from that point on I just continue to be involved and was very interested and continue to see discrepancies got and so wherever I saw the species, I thought, well, it looks like, first of all, I'm the only person of color in this room.

Something is wrong with this picture. And then when I would go into schools to work with district coordinators or teachers, I also found the same situation where the gifted class was a class in the corner of the school and when you opened the door, all the children in the classroom were white, probably middle class students, and I may have been inside of a predominantly black school and I didn't understand that why that was going on and that

we had to do something about this. So that's the backstory. Again. That was in the eighties and as you, I guess saw in my vita, you've seen that I've been deeply involved in a mess. But along the way I also started receiving. My mentor in this field is Joyce fantast Le Basket. And I know, you know Joyce in her work, and she was the one who pulled me aside and said, joy you need to get into this program and you need to, you know, become someone who can play a

critical role and gifted in And so I did. I listened to her. I trusted her word, I trusted what she saw in me. And you know, I just went forth after that. That's wonderful. We all need mentors like that. You know. I have a lot of deep respect for

the work you do. It's funny. I not funny, it's tragic, but you know, coincidental that I, as a young kid sitting and get special ed. I was so confused, like I was actually a minority in special ed being white, and you know, it's like it's like a crazy reversal. And I was like, something's really messed up about the system where I looked at the gift of that classroom and it was not nine percent white, and I was

just like, something's not right about the situation. You know, I know these people are I'm like, you know, these are my friends, you know, and these are my friends that I'm and I know that they're capable of so much more so, right, So this is the crux the question here, Joy is like what sort of changes can we make and what have you the work you've done to help show people that these kids are capable of

a lot more than giving them credit for. Well, you know, I was thinking about this earlier this afternoon and thinking about in just maybe the last eight to ten years, the changes that I've seen come about and what role I may have played in some of those changes. And one of the things, Scott that I found it was absolutely necessary was to bring more individuals who connected with the lives of these children into the discussion, you know,

bring those people to the table. Because what we had and gifted it as far back as it's back in the nineteen thirds, these and forties and fifties and sixties, we had a number of people who were conducting research, and the scholarly research only stayed in higher education. It didn't get into the classroom. It didn't touch the lives of the practitioners. And so there could have been some great things going on, and yet the people who needed it most didn't always have access to the answers that

they needed to change conditions for these children. And so what I've seen happen, and I hope I played a part in this, is that we bought more people to the table, classroom teachers who are not always involved in gifted AD but like you say, your experience was as a student, they saw some things that were happening, but they didn't always get a chance to voice their opinions.

And through the magic of social media, thank god for social media, we have been able to reach more people, just reaching people through utilizing blogging, Twitter, Facebook, and then you know, taking this information and crafted and in such a way that they would understand and they could be

affirmed by what they're understanding. So their stories now, and this is what I'm really working hard on, Scott, is getting the stories from parents and teachers of children like your friends that you said were in school with you and the students that I sold on the way, get those people to tell their story. And then we find that when they write their story or tell their story, it sounds just like a gifted child is just wrapped up in another package. And that, for me is what's

got to happen here. You know, people have asked me over and over again, can you tell me how does a black child demonstrate his or her giftedness? And I would say, well, child demonstrates their giftedness by showing you their creativity, their verbal acuity, They love words, They perhaps are some of the early readers in the classroom, the children who get intensely involved in the projects that they work on, and so they really don't look a lot different,

except there's some cultural factors involved, of course. Yeah, so there are some cultural factors in some places where we have seen in the research where you will see these children demonstrating who they are simply because of the environment they've come from, the home they come from, their culture that they've come from. And so, yes, we do have that information. But by and large, when you talk about people being gifted, the traits are pretty much the same.

It's just that they may show it differently. And then I would have to say, and this is the part that bothers me the most, is that they may show their giftedness, but the people who are looking at them, especially class some teachers who are not from their background, who are not from their culture, who don't have the same sensitivity to them, they won't see it. They won't see and that's sad. No, it's very sad. And I'm wondering, like, you know, I have a question. But first of all,

do you like the label gifted? You knew I wasn't going to let that slide. I know, I know, I have to tell you. And maybe it's because I've seen it so much over the years that I've seen it being distorted so much. I'm beginning more and more not to like the label. But I tell you what, I've had to kind of stay in the you know, in the trenches with the label until I see that label

apply equitably. Does that make sense? Yeah, you're kind of working under the current environment structures, right, and until we can see the giftedness that may be demonstrated in any child, regardless of the color of their skin, the income, who their parents are, until we can see that in any child as they will demonstrate it to us, that I think we have to hold on to the label because that's where we are as a culture. You know, we package people, we package situations, and then we attend to

that package. Does that make sense. Yeah. My concern is that the sort of like it's treated as like essentialism, you know, like and I think this is you know, that speaks to your mission as well. You know, when we conceptualize giftedness as this thing that you're either born whether or not, you know, lots of kids who might not be showing it at one period of time for a whole bunch of reasons. And I think especially you know, like young black kids, just those are the lowest yes environments.

It might not be that visible and we could too quickly just put them in the in the not category too quickly. And I know you totally agree with that. So I'm worried that the label and the kind of connotations around it are actually working against your cons well. You know, I think that we'll have to build a strong case for coming up with another way of having

these conversations without that label before we can discard the label. Yeah, exactly, like we need to be on the same like conceptual understanding. But you know, there's a problem though, because people in the field disagree so much with each other on what the heck that label actually even means. You know the hell I've been through that, yes, and I'm still there.

But you know, you can imagine when I was state director here in Virginia for gifted programs, So we had one hundred and forty some of our districts, right, and we didn't have what was called a reciprocal agreement district to district, So a kid could be in one district and their family moved over the summer, going to another district, and they're no longer gifted. So that was just maddening.

That was maddening to me because then I would get phone calls and then I would go out or I would, you know, try to I was not in the position to say, if you don't do this right, you won't get your money, but I could, you know, give advice and support. My supervisor said, Jody, just be careful how you say these things, because we're not in the position to monitor and we mandate, but we can't monitor that

didn't make any sense to me either. But anyway, so here we are with children who are demonstrating traits that would put them above and beyond because the you know, we were using the Marlin definition says that these students would need to have something that's provided for them that's above and beyond what's available in the regular classroom. And so they could be in one place and have that

need and then they wouldn't change that. You know, they may grow a month older or two months older, but then go to the next place and their needs could not be met. So that's when the issue around the labeling, you know, first kind of hit me, as you know what, this is probably not a good thing. You know, We've got to come up with a better way of making sure that children have their intellectual needs met without this label.

But until we can do that better and be equitable, Scott, I wouldn't say out loud to anyone, we can't use the label right now. I'm just afraid that I definitely understand. You know. Something that struck me I thought was it's always stuck in my mind is the Project Bright Work. Are you familiar with that Project Bright Work? It's called Project Bright but I was just saying the work, right. Yeah.

So what they did is they tested like a whole they have like gifted behaviors that they taught their whole curriculum. They taught everyone in the school gifted behaviors, a whole list, and they found that by the end of the program, one third of ethnic and racial minorities qualified for gifted education. And then did before that program. And yes, you referred to the program out of Duke University. I think so

exactly one. I think so I'm not sure. Yes, yes, go ahead, go ahead, I want to hear what you go on. I think I'm familiar with it. Yes, yes, right, yeah, yes, yes, yes, I actually worked with them. I actually went down to do a workshop and some of the parents and some of their teachers a few years ago, and so I became, you know, a little involved in what they were doing.

And and I've actually taken this whole, the whole concept out when I do professional development and share that whole idea with others, and I share their videos and say, look, if we treat these children as if they're gifted, right, yes, then they're going to demonstrate something to us differently than they would if we didn't treat them this way. Now we should demonstrate something more or better nights, and that's

always better than better, exactly exactly. I was always I'm such a big fan of that project, And yeah, so I think it's just further evidence for just it's not like you either have it or you don't. And I just don't like that kind of thinking that we have in the school system. But I'd love to hear more about the work that you're doing and some insights that

you've found to help give people more opportunities. Well, you know, as I said earlier, one of the things that I've made a strong effort to do was to have individuals share their voice and tell their stories about their bright children, their gifted children, their children who the schools would say to them, you know, well, they're not cutting it. They

missed this test by one point. Those kinds of foolish things that go on every day to hurt children in schools once these structured programs, as you say, are set up, that we keep children out of these structured programs, and it appears basically on the research that the majority of the children who are kept away from these programs are

black students and no income students and Hispanic students. Those three groups are the most underrepresented in these programs across the country, and so you can't help but think that there is some discrimination going on here that is just totally unfounded. And so we really have to work harder to have more people involved in this whole process. Get more people of color into these programs, these graduate programs, get more teachers of color who are actually teaching these

students in schools. And then, of course, as I said earlier, get more parents who can talk about their own experiences with their children so that they can provide evidence just you know, about how this kid was when they came out of the womb, you know, what kinds of behaviors did they see? And again, and as I said, what we're hearing from these parents is nothing different from what we hear from other parents who have already been a part of this labeling system that has caused their children

to be set apart. And that's a problem. I don't you know. The discrimination that is continuing to go on causes problems. People get upset, especially in the public school setting. So what I am attempting to do is to help shed more light on the story you know, tell more about the story. I think the story has not been told by the people who really know the story, and their stories will legitimize and affirm everything that we know about those children who do have these kinds of traits.

And then once we get to that place that we recognize giftedness across groups, then I think we will be able to get rid of that label. You know, years ago, I walked into a work session with the coordinators of the gifted programs across the state and I said, this just came right off my tongue, and I probably I think I regretted afterwards, but it just came right out. I said, you know, one of these days, if we do our job right, And then I said, well, now we can't speak for you, but I speak for me.

One of these days, if I do my job right, I'm going to talk myself out of a job. Yeah. Yeah, Yeah, I like that. I really like that, because yeah, because gifted education is a form of segregation in itself as well in itself in itself, it is absolutely yeah, and I think we both strive towards the world where there isn't any segregation, where any group of people are singled out as better than others, right, just right, just different, and that no one's discriminated again based on their skin

or et cetera. Yeah, so I think there's we have a long way to go, but I like that. I really like how you just put it. So tell me about the work you do with an AGC because you're on their board, right, and congratulations. First of all, yes, this is my second term on the board and I'm what's considered an at large member, so I have the opportunity to speak again across the board for the constituency, whether they be administrators, teachers, parents, researchers, I have that opportunity.

And so in that role, you know, we have our regular meetings and we speak to a number of the issues and concerns, and we get our conventions set up. But it's been a very exciting place for me to be to again use this gift that I have to speak up, you know, to advocate. I listen thoughtfully, listen to issues as they're presented, and I hope I'm thoughtfully responsive, you know. And again, even at that level, there are

only two African Americans who are on the board. One of those individuals is actually a board appointment by the president. And then we have one Hispanic Latina on the board, a great woman from Arizona, a Dina Boulets, and we are under represented even at that level. Of course, now our executive director, which is really a great thing. Our executive director, Rene Islas, is Hispanic, and so I see

some movement at the national level. We are working harder to bring to the attention of everyone this whole issue of inequity, and I think that the board as a whole has that as this vision. Will we ever be able to get to a place where we don't use the label with this organization, that's not likely, but it's certainly good to hear the conversations around equity, and it's good to hear the national push towards that end, and then the support that's being provided or school district personnel

when they come to the convention. And then it's through all of our media that we are able to put out some things available to just the members, but much of it is available to anyone. So we are feeling really good about being on the board now. At first I wasn't sure that I did the right thing, but now I feel the second term, and also just because I see the board moving in a different direction. I

feel very good about the work that we are doing. Again, beyond that, I also have opportunities continuously to work with school districts and my issue, of course is diversity in equity and help them do a better job of recognizing the problems inherent in the processes that they have set up already, and then how can they do better by these children recognizing that giftedness really knows no boundaries. You know, this is not again, it's not about you know, the

package that the child is in. It's about you know, what it is that they're capable of doing within the confines of this labeling process. Yeah, I have to keep going back to that, within the confounds of that. One of these days, I'm going to be this way, those guys, one of these days, I know, I know, and you know what to do on it, my behalf, that's okay, But I'm just telling you I'm serious about that. I

felt that way always. But I realized somewhere between some of these positions that I was moving from place to place and you know, moving you know, into specialized programs, taking on roles as grant leaders, you know, grant leader and and actually served as an executive director of a governor school here in Virginia high school program for high

ability and gifted artists and technology students. That art to technology program, I actually initiated, you know, with a team, the identification protocol, We set up the curriculum, I hired the new teachers. It was an awesome experience, and we were able to bring to that school environment students who would have never had opportunities like those within our school in their homeschool, and they would have never been recognized

as having special gifts. That school at the time actually had the highest number of students of color and low income students of any government school in the state. And so the effort has to be made to target these students. In order for us to you know, to be more equitable, we have to target the students through any mechanisms. And I've been fortunate, you know, to have those opportunities or again, because I speak out and I will do the work

that's required. Once I speak up, people call on me, and I'm glad to be able to, you know, to make a difference. That's wonderful. So let's talk about this identifying, this identification of procedures because one big problem in terms of equations the use of IQ tests in the sense that it is known that African Americans score on average about fifteen points lower on these IQ tests. What do you think are some of the reasons for that point differential?

And do you agree that we should broaden our net of identification procedures, No question, we've seen the identification protocol issue chain over the years from school districts that we're using just one one test score, an IQ score or an ability score, sometimes even just grades to which we know who's really not the best predictor of a student's

capability intellectual capability. But you know, when we know we already have this information, we're smart enough about IQ tests to recognize, as you just stated, that there is a discrepancy in the points differential, there's a difference in the way that students respond in general to i Q tests. Not all students, not all, but some and we already

know that. Then that should be enough evidence for us to not want to utilize such a narrow frame to identify those students who need a service above and beyond. Above and beyond, we shouldn't use that as the frame. And so we really have to begin looking at other

kinds of instruments, other kinds of procedures. And when school districts have broadened their identification protocol to include nonverbal ability assessments, interviews, student work samples, they have seen the difference in who these children are that they are calling gifted and high potential in their school distance. They've been able to do it differently. But not until they can do that will

we see a change come about. As a matter of fact, not as many school districts use IQ tests as general population thinks, because IQ testing is expensive and the funding that's being made available to gifted education across the nation is not what it ought to be, and so they're not I mean, there are just is that still the use IQ tests, But more often than not, they're using

ability tests. They're using tests like the oldest lennin the COGAD, you know, they're using the I know, I know, I shouldn't go there, right, I'm sorry, but yeah, that's what they're using. They don't have the funding to set aside school site people, you know, and provide the individualized assessment that they would desire. They don't have that kind of

those funds are not available to them. So again, if we use a multiple criteria approach, which we have learned is best practice, then we're going to have a better chance of bringing in it equitable pool of students who should be you know, who we can look at to see what they're their need for services, you know, what is the need for services of this population and students. But now it's not a club, it's not a popularity contest. We're not trying to set aside students to award them

something special. We're trying to deal with who they are and what their needs are. And that takes a bit of a shift in some thinking. I think in some places, being in the gifted program is like an award or something that somebody's been given to you. So we have problems when they're school distance who are still promoting their programs in that way and parents or teachers believe that that's what the program service is all about. We do

continue to have problems with that. I'm trying to think if there's anything else in particular, I wanted to ask you I wanted I didn't want to point out that my colleague James Kaufman and I we've you know, we found that and O researchers I found this too, that tests of diversion thinking and creativity show much fewer race differences than i Q tests do. And I think that's

really interesting. You know, I think that maybe from like we're talking about cultural issues earlier, perhaps you know, in the African American community, it's more accepted to be creative than to be academically intelligent, for instance, and so that there might be these other ways of showing, you know, what they're capable of that go beyond the IQ test. But you know about the work of Paul Torrens. Oh

that's my guy, that's my guy. Yeah, okay, Well, you know that that work was promoted widely in the field of gifted it for many, many years, and so there were school personnel who were actually going to receive training and understanding, you know, how to utilize the Torrents tests for creative thinking as a part of their protocol and so some districts still have that within their their protocols.

But again, those individuals who are responsible for administering the Torrance tests or any version thereof need to understand what they're doing. And then of course, uh, there's some costs and curd and actually having the test scored if you don't know how to do that. But yes, we you know,

for those districts. And one of the reasons why we think that the Torrance Test was popularized in in high minority communities and how high minority school districts was because we you know, of the of the whole idea of creativity and what does creativity mean, you know, within the context of being black or being Latino. You know, what does that mean? And how how is that accepted within

the community as you suggest. Now, I don't want to suggest that the black community or the Latino community does not accept and doesn't promote intellectual giftedness or academic giftness. That's absolutely not the case. Uh, but what it's not accepted because we know within the community itself that is promoted,

you know, academics is promoted, intellectual giftedness is promoted. So we you know, we have to you know, kind of pull back some of the covers, the layers on what's going on in the community that sometimes the outer community doesn't always know about, it's not always familiar with. But again, once we get people from within these these more isolated communities and in some cases, the Black community, Latino community more isolated. Once we get people from those groups involved

in this discussion, then things begin to change. Things do begin to change. But I do agree about the creativity piece, and we've used that. I've used it in districts. I've trained people and utilizing that as a tool, and we have always encouraged districts to keep the creativity component in

their protocol in some way. Sometimes again, it all depends on how much money they have to allocate to this particular and how much pressure is being put upon them, you know, outside to either keep creativity on the table or take it out, you know, take it out of the equation altogether. I really like that perspective. Well, yeah, thank you for that clarification. Certainly, academics is appreciated in

the community and in the African American community. But what I've noticed is I think there's a problem with just youth in general, regardless of your race or ethnicity, that just like being smart, is just not considered. You know, people get bullied in school if you're a teenager and you stand out, you stand out too much in academics, So there might be just a larger issue of us you know, kind of showing more love to the nerves

like ourselves. Yeah, show more love, that's right, more accepting exactly. Let's start a hashtag nerd love. Nerd love. But you know, against God, there a lot, you know. Again, I say I love social media because I'm becoming more and more

aware of schools across the country. Some of the macharity schools, of course, but there are schools and then there are community groups who are doing things on the weekends with the black students, and they have these enrichment programs that are just awesome and they are focusing on and they're actually utilizing the same terminology they're calling these kids geniuses, they're calling them nerves. You know, they're just the groups

are clustering together around intellectualism. And I think that it's awesome when you're talking about these children being a part of a community that is not perceived in that way. It's not perceived, but they are becoming more and more a part of that and speaking openly about that. I'm even hearing some of the work of doctor W. E. B. Du Bois, you know, more openly. Again, we hear more about the talented tenth There are groups that are naming

themselves a talented tenth group, you know. So it's exciting to see what's going on today. There is is a move towards acceptance and promoting intellectual behaviors to you know, to kind of counteract what you were saying earlier about this whole idea about being smart is not cool, you know, So the community is taking that on for itself. I'm going to Arizona tomorrow and next week I'll be at the Arizona Alliance for Black School Educators Conference wanted. I'll

be one of their keynote speakers. I'm excited about that. And I'm excited because usually when I speak or go and help, I'm always the one who's going to help those individuals involved in gifted education. Seldom do I have opportunity to speak to an organization that focuses on the broader population. And so it's good to know that they're

interested enough, you know what I'm saying. You know that that I've gotten this invitation and that I will have a chance to speak truth to some of this information. Same things we're talking about, I can share with this alliance at the statewide meeting of Black Teachers, and so I'm very very pleased to know that people are interested and they're not treating this thing called gifted it or treating it as if something that doesn't belong to them, you know, so they don't want to have anything to

do with it. Yeah, so I'm really excited. Congratulations, congratulations. And that's where we're going to make the big changes is by making us more mainstream and mainstream, not only talking amongst you know, in the gifted conferences. That's not going to make the biggest changes. It's not going to exactly got exactly. We have to cross the aisle. We have to you know, make more net We have to

network more. We just have to, you know, if we want to make changes and want to see what we do as educators, uh and researchers and you know, people who have the great ideas, if we want to do this better, we have to. It has to be more mainstream. It has to reach out further. Yeah, but one thing

is clear, there needs to be a change. It is just ridiculous when you go into most public schools and you just see such a clear segregation between like the kids that were singled out with highest potential, who are predominantly white, middle class and the kids we singled out with the biggest behavioral problems and learning disabilities as being poor, you know, African American, you know. I mean, that's that's a real big problem and it is. Thank you for

the great work you're doing. I just want to support you and encourage you to keep it up. Thank you so much, Scott for having me. I apologize for the delay in getting getting started, but I really appreciate you doing this, no worries. Thank you so much for being on this and thank you for your work. Thank you

so much for the work that you're doing. I'm excited every time I have a chance to read one of your papers online or just some of your posts, I'm really excited and thanks and I bring people to you as well. I do that. I really appreciate you. Thank you. Thanks for listening to The Psychology Podcast with doctor Scott Barry Kaufman. I hope you found this episode just as

thought per booking and interesting as I did. If you'd like to read the show notes for this episode or hear past episodes, you can visit the Psychology Podcast dot com.