51: Developing Peak Performance

a defensive quality control coach for the Chicago Bears. He is entering his tenth year as a coach at the NFL or collegiate levels. On the field. To say, works with the Bears linebackers on defense while also assisting the special team's coaches. Not sure I know what any of that means, but it's great to have you on the show. Sean oh Man, it's great to be here, Scott oh thanks for reaching out to me. I would like to

expand my horizons. Yeah, I'm really excited. I've listened to a lot of your podcasts, and then I've read a lot of the books of different people I've been interviewed, so I was really interested in figured we'd get a chance to talk. I'd love to do that. Cool. Let's start with your development into the NFL. How did you end up as a defensive quality control for the Chicago Bears.

How does one do? Yeah? So, I started as a graduate assistant at Temple University in two thousand and six, and I was going to school there and I ended up getting my doctorate in education and Higher ed administration and then became the special teams coordinator and linebacker coach,

promoted that position. Was fortunate enough to do that. Then from there went to the University of Miami for one year down in Florida, then went to Boston College as a special teams coordinator running back coach for a year, and then I had an opportunity to join the Bears back in twenty twelve and was fortunate enough to get the job and have been tacking on ever since. Were

you a Chicago Bears fan before? I mean, everybody's a Chicago Bears fan, just in terms of if you're a NFL fan, you know, because it's one of the founding franchises of the NFL. Growing up, I was really you know, Eagles, I was growing up in the Northeast, so I wasn't an Eagles fan. I was more of a Giants than San Francisco forty nine ers. But that was way young. I mean, I would say I stopped becoming a fan once you start coaching, right, So what do you mean

by that? That's interesting? You know, I think it's harder to have stronger alliance as as fans do when you're in the profession, So you think you appreciate the game from a different angle. And I love the game. I mean, I'm a fan of the game, but to say I'm a die hard fan of one team, now, I don't think I can say that, especially if I'm working in league. Gotcha? And did you play football yourself? So I played in high school. Unfortunately we were good and won state championship

and everything like that. But the college I went to, I went to Boston University. They actually cut their program a few years before I got there, so I did not play in college, which is rather unique, I guess for anybody to be coaching, especially at this level. But it's worked out. Yeah, it sounds like it. Okay. So I mean, is there like a standard path for someone

who wants to become a coach. I mean, is there like something that like, what's like the normal sort of pathway to that, to that sort of Yeah, so I would say probably a traditional pathway would be, you know, you have some playing experience, so that gives you some access to head coaches and athletic directors at the college level or NFL head coaches and general managers, and then eventually transition into some type of if it's college a graduate assistant role, or if it's the NFL, a defensive

assistant or like you mean, defensive quality control of whatever your title is, you transition into the entry level position at that level, and then once you've got access, it's pretty much about your merit and how well the people around you think of you, and you kind of work your way up. Now let's dive into things that other coaches listening to this interview could really benefit from. So you've proposed your own sort of model of player development called the Dice model. Do you want to talk a

little bit about that? Yeah, you know, and it actually came about through some experiences I've had at Temple with the head coach there while I was there, and then I ended up developing actually for an academic project I was working on at Temple, and it first started off as a teaching and learning model, and then I eventually, since over the last i would say four or five years, really put a lot more thought into it and developed

it really into a leadership motivation model as well. And so really dice an acronym and so what it stands for is direct, instruct, collaborate, and empower, and I think those are pretty much encompass different styles of teaching and learning and really end up income seeing different styles of motivation and leadership. And my premise of the model is, you know, for me, at one point, I should say like this. At one point, it used to be a linear model that you know, you go from direct to instruct,

to collaborate to empower. And as I've developed the model, I've kind of gone out of that phase and start to think that maybe it's not so linear as much as it is a self perpetuating cycle. So what I mean by that is there's one word that's not in the acronym, trust that's really critical to the model. So I think everything starts with trust. Developing trust with your constituents,

with your players in our field, with your students. If you're an educator, and once you can develop that type of trust, you have access to all of those models. You have access to the directing, the instructing, the collaborating,

and the empowering. And I think the empowering is the ultimate one that everybody would like to get to because that kind of creates a self motivated individual once they become so empowered, and I think that is really what allows a powerful team to win, powerful organizations to have success.

So trust is the central part of it, and I've really added that self perpetuing cycle part because I think once you develop trust, all of those styles direction, instruction, collaboration, and empowerment are relevant and necessary at different times, right from a leadership perspective. But what's the difference in directing and instructing? Yeah, that was something I've thought about for

a little bit. So directing to me is more of a command, so it'd be something like me say, okay, Scott, you go do this, and then you just go do it, okay. An instruction would be more of I think what a lot of people may consider teaching is okay, Scott, you go do this, and this is how we'll do it. We'll walk to the left, You'll take one step with your left foot, one step with your right foot. So I've given you an instruction of how to do that.

The collaboration would be like, okay, Scott, we're going to do this. We're gonna walk here to the left. We're gonna take one step with our left, one step with our right. Let's go ahead and do it together with your left foot. Here's where the right foot, and we're doing it together. So we're working together. And then an empowerment evention. This is a tricky part. This is the part that gets really hard and it's really elusive to grasp.

Is you know, we may be talking. You might come up to me and say, hey, hey, Sean, well I think it might be better I take a step to the left here. Maybe I can start with my left foot and right foot like this, And then I'd be like, hey, that's a great idea. Let's see how that works. So now you're the one who's initiated the instruction or the

direction or the lesson. So that's where the empowerment comes in because once you can get that where the pupil, the player, the learner is feels like they're on an equal level with the teacher, the coach, the leader, then you can. I think it's a powerful movement. It's a powerful motivating force that can really have some drastic impacts positively. So there is a room in the process for some

creativity on the part of the player. Oh my gosh, I think that's the really I mean, I never even thought about that word until you just mentioned, but that's that's really what you're going for when you're talking about empowerment, is for the player to be able to think creatively, like you said, within whatever realm that they're doing, and to be able to feel comfortable bringing up some ideas or suggestions or feel comfortable doing in action even without

speaking to me, perhaps because they know that it'll be within the realm of what we're doing. Gotch Well, So, yeah, it's this idea of empowerment. Like during the games, are you on the floor of the like, are you right there with the players on the sideline? Yeah? So the way you know, game days set up is we got coaches on the sideline, coaches in the booth, and we're all communicating, you know, with our headsets and everything like that.

So myself, I'm up in the booth with our defensive coordinator and one of our other defensive back coaches, and then the other four defensive coaches run on the field, So that's how we communicate. Where's the booth is it? The booth is in the stands. Really, you know, it's like a suite, So it's we're kind of higher eagle eye view of what's going on in the game as

much commer environment. So you know, we can relay the information to the coaches who are on the field, and then they relay it to the players because it's hard to see when you're on the field. Yeah, no, I understand. I mean that that must be quite a rush. Oh yeah, I mean it's great, And it's just the dynamic of VENI in the booth is on the field, it's totally different. I had an opportunity to be on the field one

year when I was at Boston College. There's so much more emotion and energy on the field that if you don't know how to manage it, you can kind of get caught up into and lose yourself a little bit. Yeah, do you wish you were on the field, You know, there are times I do, But I really do like

the booth. I really like the ability to be able to see everything, make some decisions and have some time to reflect on it really quickly, and relay information down to the coaches that are on the field they incapacity to the players. Cool man, I mean that. Yeah, that's just like sounds like a dream job for someone that likes football. Yeah, I mean it is. It's a dream job from I mean you kind of get season free season tickets, that's right, I got the bet in the house. Yeah, yeah,

that's really cool. So you near like the press and media peak booths as well. Yeah, we're actually all on the same level most times. You know, different thames are set up different ways, but we're usually on the same level. Obviously, we've got our own partition in our own room, but yeah, everybody's pretty much on the same level. Are you hoping to win the Super Bowl this year? Yes? Yes, absolutely.

You guys need to make some improvements from last year. Huh. Yeah, you know, I think we've made some and it'll be good. We've got the players back. We're meeting with players now, and it's always an exciting time of year because you get to reinstall your systems and schemes, and right now is the time that you're teaching and learning the most,

So it's great. Yeah, So what kind of happens off season is Yeah, the strategy, So you know, in the NFL counter year, it's different than the college calendar year. You know, once the season's over, the coaches get a few weeks off and then you get ready. You're trying to get ready for a free agency, so you're evaluating players in the NFL around your team and on other teams, and then personnel folks are making transactions, and then you get ready for the draft, which is another big chunk

of time. You know, you go down to the combine when you're conducting interviews, you're evaluating college players, and then after the draft, you're pretty much getting ready for spring practice OTAs coaching sessions, which is what we're in right now.

And so during that time of well you're evaluating players through free agency and college, you're basically self scouting self and analyzing your own strengths and weaknesses, trying to figure out ways that you can improve, studying other people's schemes both offensively and defensively, and just trying to get better

as best you can. So what do you think is show of the great indicators of potential in the NFL, there's been some research on MBA combined showing that a lot of those markers of physical fitness and stuff are really not what differentiates the greats from the non greats. What do you think are some of the greatest markers?

You know? I think that's an awesome question. I think there needs to be a baseline, and I think in most of the literature, even non athletic literature, when you're talking about performance, there needs to be some type of baseline of skill, some type of baseline of athleticism. So however you measure that, So we have that, and just like the NBA, everybody's got those analytics in terms of height, weight, speed, YadA, YadA, YadA, of all those things that you can measure and you

can quantify. I personally believe that that's it's good and it's a good understanding to have, and it's a good brometer to measure people and compare people historically and currently. But I think there's another level that needs to be understood, and that level is really developed through personal contact. You need to be a person evaluator. To be a good

personnel evaluator, in my opinion. And so what I mean by that is you need to be able to understand how a person learns, how they're motivated, makes them kind of tick, and what makes them want to be great, if they have that quality that wants to be great, and really how they'll fit into your system. I think a lot of times talent can be kind of a

seduction almost. You know, people can get seduced by talent that they forget all those other things, and then all of a sudden you may have a talented player who is not really performing well or to your expectation, of course, puts it distracted by talents. Yeah, that's right. Have you read her new book? I just got it. I have not read it though. Cool, it's very good. It's a great book. Yeah, so this is super interesting. You have this privileged access to seeing differences in player quality and

understand the people as well. Are you friends with any of the players? You know? I wouldn't. I don't know if i'd say friends. You know, it's not like you call them up and write and go drinking with them. I mean, I think we have a good professional relationship. I think they all respect me, and I certainly respect everything that they do in terms of their preparation and their physical and mental wear that they put on their bodies to go through the sport that we play. So

I certainly have a great respect for them. But yeah, I think i'm i would say, have a really good, respectful professional relationship with them where I hope they feel like they can come to me for anything, and I know I can go to them for anything. Are you allowed to be friends with them? Are you? No? No? No, Yeah, there's no written rules, and I think there's always a

necessary boundary points. You know, you don't want to become too friendly because at the end of the day, this is still a profession, you know, especially when you're talking about in the the NFL. It's very different than college, you know, because a lot of times these players are coming and going in the NFL, you know, they get cut one day, they get picked up by another team, and things like that.

So in college you're developing a little bit different type of relationship because these are kids who are, you know, seventeen or eighteen years old, coming right out of high school, whore and actually live on their own for the first time. So in that role, you're trying to take on a little bit more of a parental role, trying to show them the way of how to be a co it's student,

how to be a successful student athlete. You know, what are the traits that they need to be able to endure the academic rigor of the university that they're at as long along with the football rigger or the athletic rigor. That's a great point. So how much of performance or you know, high performance is due to the sort of mental game. There's a phrase called mental toughness that's used a lot. Yeah, what are some of the key characteristics there? You know, I think mental toughness is to me, an

overuse phrase that's underdefined. Now do I think it's a great phrase, yes? Do I use it all the time? Yes? I think it needs to be clearly defined in terms of how people are using it, because a lot of times it just becomes a catch off or something. Oh well, that kid's not mentally tough. But what does that mean? What are your expectations as a leader for being mentally tough? And so for me, you know, some of those expectations are are they resilient? Are they able to self motivate

themselves through a difficult physical situation? And also a difficult mental situation, you know, because these are all things that happen to them in the course of a game, So how do they respond to adversity and so, you know, you try to put them in situations where you can determine that, you know, through practice or even through meetings, and you try to make those as difficult for them

to endure. Not difficult in a oh man, this is laborious or anything like that, but difficult in the sense of this is mentally draining if you're in a meeting room, or even sometimes physically draining if you're on a practice field.

So you're trying to push them to certain limits safe limits. Obviously, you don't want to do things very safely, but you're trying to push them certain limits and test certain boundaries to see how they'll react, to see if that's the type of player that you can use and count on to, you know, for a successful outcome in a game. Oh, that's a really good point. I mean most people at

that level, though, I mean, they're like very high. I mean, they're going to have very good resiliency to be able to make it to the NFL, right, Yeah, you know, so I think there's any time you get access to any type of profession. And this was a lot of what my research was in my dissertation. There's already a baseline characteristic, so it's just what you're saying, you know,

it's like the signaling hypothesis, the screen hypothsis. All these guys interviewed for a job in the NFL through their four years of college, through their work on the field. Off the field, they went to the combiner, didn't you know, They had their pro days, so that was their interview process, and so that ended up being a signal or a screen for these NFL teams. So now we know, okay,

they were able to do certain things. But it's a whole different set now because there's also another Just like any labor market trend, there's still a supply and demand need. So regardless, there's going to be some people that fall through the cracks because you just need supply, right, are you do you have any saying who gets into the NFL? Well, do you have like a vote? Yeah, you know, i'd

like to think. So, you know, our organization does a great job with our general manager and our head coach in terms of involving the coaches and then in terms of evaluations, so yes, you know, like I work with the linebacker group, inside linebackers in particular with us, so you know, I have a list of guys that I evaluate.

Our inside linebacker coach has a list of guys he evaluates, and then we all kind of sit in a meeting room and discuss it and hash out the differences and kind of, you know, give everybody our evaluations on if we think this guy's worthy to be a bear or not. I like the way you said that, really to be a bear, that's cool. I mean it's just such a it seems like such a dream job. Wow. Yeah, So you know, I really appreciate your advice and insight. You know, there are a lot of people who are into the

coaching profession who want to get to coaching profession. Do you have any advice for them? Like, I have a student, an undergrad student in one of my classes that wants to be a coach. Like, what's the advice there? Well, the advice is keep working hard and just try to gain access. Try to gain access point into college coaching or in to the NFL or whatever level you want

to coach. Into high school coaching. I mean, when I was in college at Boston University, I was coaching my high school team back in Connecticut, helping coach it, you know, so I'd be in contact with the head coach was a freshman team, and I'd stay through training camp, I'd drive back on weekends to coach for games. So you're gonna have to put in some type of sacrifice, and you're gonna, mean, it's just like what Angela Duckworth has.

You're gonna have to have some grit because you're gonna go through a long road, a low paying road where you're gonna be at the bottom of the chain for a long time, right right, and you're gonna have to be able to endure that and realize that it's not about the money. You're the materialistic things that you may think it is, but it's really about your passion and your drive and your positive approach towards it that'll help

you develop in advance and be a sponge. I mean, go meet different coaches, you know, they have all these coaching clinics and all that kind of stuff. Go to a lot of them, meet different people, learn a lot of different schemes, learn a lot of different types of way to do things, have an open mind and just keep keep working. Yeah, do you do you have a specific like do you want to be a head coach? Yes? Like do you have a dream? Yes? Okay, yeah, so

uh yes, it's to be a head coach. And really, you know what, I got into this profession because, like I said, I got my doctrine, so I had a professor job in hand that I turned down to be a ga you know, so I wasn't. I went from getting paid whatever it was going to be to still paying and not getting any money. So the dream was to be a head coach at a college or the NFL and then eventually, you know, obviously win at that high be successful and win at that level whatever level

that is. And then you know, I think eventually I would like to get back into academics and kind of pursue that leadership track a little bit if I can. Yeah. Are you are you friends with John Fox at all? Yeah? I hope so? Yeah? No he action do you have with him? Oh? Daily? Yeah? Daily? I mean, you know, because the coaches are really close. You know, he does

a coach. Fox does a great job in terms of listening and empowering everybody in the organization to have a voice and you know, to have their own kind of a stance on things, you know. So it's really I'm really fortunate to be part of his organization. He's extremely successful, as you can see by his own history, so he takes such a positive approach to developing players every day that it's it's really awesome. I'm really fortunate to be where I'm at. Yeah, no, it really sounds like such

a great job. And yeah, I wish you all the best in working your way up, and we'll get you back on the podcast someday when you're head coach. That sounds good. Scott, thanks for being on the show. Oh, thank you. Thanks for listening to The Psychology Podcast with Doctor Scott Barry Kaufman. I hope you found this episode just as thought per booking and interesting as I did. If he'd like to read the show knows for this episode or here past episodes, you can visit the Psychology Podcast dot com.