41: Releasing Your Inner Bonobo

have doctor Susan Block on the show. Doctor Susan Block is an American sex therapist, author, filmmaker, TV talk show host, and cultural commentator. She's founder of the Doctor Susan Block Institute for the Erotic Arts and Sciences. Thanks Susan for talking to me today. Oh it's my pleasure, Scott. I'm excited. I'm excited too. You are known for lots of things, and we can talk about lots of stuff tonight. You are, oh, absolutely well, some of which I'm famous for, in some

of which I'm infinous for. You know, I've known you since I was a little baby. You were a grad student at Yale. You were literally in the audience of a talk I gave at Yale Sex Week. I gave it an academic talk on meeting intelligence with my colleague Glen Gear and you came up to me after the talk and you were just so supportive, and I just want to thank you. You know, I don't know, I

thank you fully, thank you. Well, you're welcome. Thanks. At necessary, I wanted to come up to you because I wanted to connect with you. Yes, thing, yes, and we did connect and we have lots to talk about. So one thing you're known for is your philosophy of ethical hedonism, right, yeah, And I thought you could unpack a little bit for the audience what that means ethical hedonism. Well, it's, first

of all, very possible to be an ethical heathenist. It's not an oxymoron, and in fact, you can't be a moron to be one. And yeah, you can be one just as easily as you can be an unethical puritan. Really, it's just about understanding that, you know, pleasure is a great motivator. Pleasure is a positive thing in life. It's not necessarily weakness to enjoy pleasure, and yeah, it does need to be tempered with ethics, and these ethics don't have to be moralizing ethics. In fact, they can be

just as natural as the desire of pleasure. There are many studies that show that kindness is hedonic, that it feels good to do good. So in a way, ethical hedonism is just feeling good doing good. What is hedonism in your definition, It's kind of like epicurean hedonism. It's not the kind of hedonism that you know, damn everybody else's feelings. If it feels good, do it, and that's it.

It's yeah, it's putting pleasure as a priority, maybe even first, but it's also taking other people's pleasure into consideration, and it is defining pleasure in a very expansive, the noblesque way. So this is really interesting because you know, I am in the past couple of years, have really gotten into the field of positive psychology, and I actually teach positive psychology. And I don't even know if you know where I am right now, but I now teach at University of Pennsylvania. Yeah,

when my parents went there. I'm very excited about that. Yeah, and you grew up actually in the suburbs right near

where I grew up. The main line, yeah, the main line. Yeah, And I teach posit psychology and a big thing I teach is the sort of multi dimensional conceptisation of well being and happiness and how it goes beyond just hedonism defined as you know, just simple pleasures, showing that like for a full life you need meaning, you need, engagement, you need or at least it helps maybe not need, but it helps positive social relationship, these certain things, these

sorts of things. And so it sounds to me like, I mean, I think your definition udism goes beyond just carnal pleasures, right, Oh yeah, I mean meaning gives me the most pleasure, you know, finding meaning and what I do and what happens in my life. That's a great pleasure that gives me, you know, brain Gassen, So I love that, sure, feel good? Yeah, your own practice, you're lots of things, and you're not the type of person to be just labeled as one thing. But one of

your hats is a sex therapist, is that right? Absolutely? And you a sex therapist and private practice, that's my day job. You incorporate lots of different techniques in your work. I've read erotic theater therapy, sexual psychodrama, and bonobo liberation therapy. Now these might not be obvious what these things mean to my listeners. So would you be open to unpacking a little bit with these kind of therapies entail? Sure it's too unpacked, but you know that whole threesome you

just started there. But what should we start with erotic theater therapy? Because I know we're going to want to talk about bonobo. Yeah, let's hold off on. Yeah, that's going to segue, so we'll segue into the whole. But I have a million Bobo questions for you. Yeah, let's start with your kind of your background in theater, which I believe you studied at Yale. I did I have a bachelors in theaters? And really, you know, I kind of veered towards that because it is the sexiest major

at yam maybe even the easiest. And I am a bit of an old fashion headenis and slightly lazy, and I like the idea of getting credit for kissing a classmate.

You know, you said that in your book. Yeah, and well it's really what motivated me other than just I feel like, you know, all the world is a stage, and not just if you like Shakespeare, but you know, just that's like people are always acting and interacting, and a lot of acting training is teaching empathy, really teaching how to tune in to your fellow actors or as a director, how to tune into your director so that you can act in this finite thing called a play

or a movie. But it's really kind of a lesson to learn for life, I think. So. In my practice, I do erotic theater therapy. What is that? And it's kind of a psychodrama, erotic psychodrama. It can be done in real life with a group like I do pretty much every Saturday night on my show and in my after party, and it can be done one on one, it can be done in your own mind in the erotic theater of the mind. You know, fantasy can be

just as interesting and compelling as reality. And in erotic theater therapy we explore the world of fantasy, whether that's a complete you know, gives me style fantasy, or a memory of something that might have happened to you, maybe something positive, maybe something negative that happened in your sexual life, exploring that through role play that is both meaningful and

hopefully pleasurable, not necessarily pleasurable. Sometimes it can be painful, but hopefully it is always me meaningful and help the client to understand their sexual feelings, their fetishes, the fantasies that might bother them, and how to explore them, Whether to explore them in real life, whether to do that with a partner, to do it in a group, to act it out literally, or just maybe in a kind of theatrical style way with perhaps a dominatrix or in

some other professional setting, or whether to just keep it in the mind and just kind of contain it there. You know, did that advent it pretty much? I guess. I mean, I don't know if it's an invention so much as a pulling of different styles of communication, different therapies, also just fantasy roleplay, pulling from all the different wonderful subsperts I know from Yeah, you know, and I use it all to help my my clients. And you see a lot of significant changes in your clients. Yeah, I

guess I could say that is. I guess I see significant changes. Sometimes. I certainly see significant understanding. Sometimes it is about a change, about coming out of a closet, about realizing that there's nothing wrong with your fantasy and you really need to in order to live a full, meaningful life, express yourself like a butterfly from a caterpillar, you know, and then you see a very meaningful change,

and it's very obvious and it's a celebration. And sometimes the change is very very minuscule, but it's very important, such as if someone has a very very taboo fantasy that they shouldn't explore, if they fantasize about doing something that is really wrong and they think it's wrong too, something that you know, probably not a good idea, definitely not a good idea to explore in reality, that there are other ways to explore it, and that they're not

like totally messed up just for thinking it. So, do you think we live in a really sexually repressed culture in comparison to other cultures? Many cultures are in comparison to Vanogo culture. No, I don't think comparison to other human cultures, you know. No, I don't think we're more or less. I think that most human cultures are repressed in one way or another, and often the way that which you are repressed in one culture, you're more open

than another. I've traveled around a bit, and I noticed that every culture has their way of being very sexual that is almost shocking to anyone from another culture. And then they have their ways in which they appear to be repressed. For instance, Americans talk about sex a lot. Maybe iTunes gives us, you know, an our rating, but the fact is that most other cultures, even in France, they go Americans, you talk so much about sex, and I guess we're relatively unrepressed in that regards, at least

on talk shows. But the French, on the other hand, they're much more open about just having affairs. I guess, as long as they respect certain boundaries. And then I was surprised when I had a caller on my show from Iraq, who sometimes I get people from all over the world, both in my private practice and on my show, and on this show, I had some other sexperts, and he was saying that his sex life with his wife had become boring and he wasn't sure quite what to do.

And we were giving him all these ideas for how to spice up his sex life, and he was saying, no, no, that wasn't a good idea. That wasn't a good idea. And then somebody said, well, do you want to divorce your wife? And he said, no, of course not my wife and I we love each other. I mean and she's the mother of my five children and she's a good woman. I would never divorce her. And we said, well, you don't want to make your sex life better, but you want a better sex life and you don't want

to divorce or what do you want to do? He says, well, I want to take a second life. Wow, And we were like what so, you know, I don't know, are we repressed? Is he repressed? Well that's great. People have different approaches to this prison we're in called civilization that occurred after the dawn of agriculture. I mean, it's a beautiful prison. I wouldn't want to live before the dawn of agriculture. But we all have ways of repressing sexuality and we all have ways of expressing it. And I'm

just here to help people. Yeah, no, and you do. Thank you. You know, you do inspire me because I feel like I'm getting old, Like I just study all the time academia, you know, I mean, I'm proud of my academic connections. But it's you know, I mean, you know all about the power of play. Oh my gosh,

this is one of my things. And yeah, I'm very much into play, and I think id all play is just as important, absolutely, maybe more important because kids do it so naturally and then it's kind of beaten or educated out of us, and then we have to kind of relearn it in some ways. But it is so important to good sex and a good life. Okay, so do you think good sex is important for living a good life? Well, actually I didn't say that, but I

know I didn't. Maybe I think so. But then there are those people that I have to respect in this political correct world who identify as asexual. Yes, asexual, and so I would have to say I'm trying. I'm learning more and more about what asexual really means, because whenever I talk one on one to a person who identifies it asexual, I find that there is some sexuality to them. I guess I just think that every human has some sexuality.

They don't necessarily want to share that with others though, right, And maybe they don't, But we are all sexual creatures, were born from sex. Sex is what brings us into the world, and sex is what motivates us to stick around for a while, and you know, it cheats death. It's a great motivator. And I think that, yeah, you know, it's good to know thy sex Socrates said no thyself. I say, no thy sex. And then you know you

have to go from there. Maybe if you have very you know, questionable fetishes that would get you in trouble with iTunes, then you should stay in the erotic theater of the mind with it. And on the other hand, it's you know, you just want to switch genders, that's okay, you can get on the cover of Vanity there. You are amazing at like just on the spot, coming up with like puns and plays on words like were you just like this? And back at Yale, like if I

knew you back then, I was very shy back at Yae. Really, I mean that's why I took theater. I actually first I was I did mine and then I had to learn a lot, you know, just like you, challenges make you stronger, it does it does? I now give talks, you know, in front of lots of people, and I'm definitely shy about that, definitely. I Mean the amount I've grown in just since the time you've known me is crazy. Actually. Yeah.

But the people that aren't shy that are just so natural, you know, I mean, it's easy for them to crash and burn sometimes. Yeah, So we have to feel for them too. Oh, I mean, I do like your idea that we're all more or less kind of equal and we just have to find our strengths and kind of shore up our weaknesses. And yeah, yeah, I mean I think that, you know, when we do all do different

in our talents, interest preferences, et cetera, et cetera. But the key to talent is pleasure is enjoying what you're doing, because no matter how good you are at it, if you don't enjoy it, yeah, you're going to resent it. Sure. You know, we all have like a value proposition to the world, and the more that we like express that, I think the more we gain pleasure. So absolutely true. Now, like I said in the beginning, you're known for lots

of things. One thing is that maybe it'll jog the memory of a lot of my listeners, is that you've done television specials in HBO, and I think I remember watching some of them as like a pubescent kid. Yeah, and my executive producer is a Yale Sheila and Evans. Yeah, and you know, cubescent kids are continuing to watch it because they keep rerunning it. We're always getting calls every week from some different people who have just seen it. Well, so remind me what it was like what you did

in these specials. It wasn't part of the real sex thing, right, Yeah, I mean I did some real sex segments that are also getting reruns. But I did my own series of specials called Radio Sets TV that are really just like my own show, except with a lot bigger budget and more camera people. And I guess also, I think that with HBO is when I started working with an audience, because before that I might just have a couple people,

but they wanted a big studio audience. Before that, it was more just intimate, just me in a camera and maybe a guest or maybe the callers calling. And they brought in audience and then wanted more visual activities, and so I started doing more with audiences and then parties and just kind of created this unique hybrid of I guess the Greatest Sexuality Show on Earth and Fleen Party. Are there episodes online? Oh? Yeah, there's lots and lots and lots and lots of episodes from all different eras.

I've been doing it since the nineteen nineties, and you can see. I guess you'd say PG rated, although maybe iTunes wouldn't consider them that. You know, they're on YouTube. They're youtubeable and without any restrictions, so you can see episodes there as well as on my site doctor Susan blockac TV, where you can see them unexpigating. While you're cracking me up so much tonight, I know, Well you're

asking the questions. I love it, okay, So I'm just answering. No, I mean, you're the same season bog that I know and love. Okay, So I do want to talk about let's dive into the bonobo world. Look, it's a fascinating world. And I will say that I've learned so much about pinobos, more so from you than scientists and anthropologists who started this stuff. Well thanks, yeah, I do try to make science fun, you know, in ecology erotic. Yeah exactly. So you say in your book that we can learn a

lot about bonobos. They reveal a lot about the nature of lust, trust, arousal, orgasm. I want to go to the whole list. Cooperation, compassion, morality, dominant submission, being human, and even being humane. That's a lot of things. Well, there there are cousins. They're very very close to us. You know, people look into disguise for an alien that might be like us, who could teach us something about

our ourselves. But here are these thenobos. They're right here on Earth, and they're over ninety eight percent genetically similar to us and genetics society. You know, you just look into the big brown eyes and you know they're like, I mean, connected to us. It feels like you're looking at the missing link, you know it's And then you look at how they move and of course how they interact, and you see that they are very very close to us, and that I think is the number one important thing

about the nobos is just they're close to us. I mean, all animals are precious to us, and all animals can teach us something about ourselves as animals because we are animals, and all apes can teach us something, and we are apes. The nobos are very very close to us, the closest along with common ships. And the other thing about the nobos, of course, for me and you know other sets maniacs like me, is yeah, yeah, they have a lot of sex.

They have a huge amount of sex, much more than common chimps, maybe I don't know, comparable to what we have, both quality and quantity, The other thing is they empower the females much more than any other grade apes. Yeah, you know, all the other grade apes are very very male, dominant, patriarchal, whatever you want to call them. You could say humans are, although we go back and forth with that right now, but through our history we have been, our civilized history.

But Banobo's, you know, empower the females, older females, you know, kind of rule. And they also stay younger longer. That's another thing about them. They really the lifespan there's like a Bonobo fountain of youth. It's I don't know that the lifespan is different, is much different. It's more that they're more youthful as babies. Common chimps are just as cute and youthful as banobos, but with age they just

quickly turn into grumpy old eightes. And banobos, especially the males, maybe because they share leadership with the females, they seem to sip from an eternal fountain of youth. They play a lot, they're very you know, fun and now the most important thing we know about bnobos they have never been seen killing each other in the wilder captivity. They make peace through pleasure and that's why. You know, if you've ever heard of them, you've heard they're called the

make love not war chimpanzees. And that doesn't make them hippies. It's not that they don't fight. They fight and they can be violent. They're not angels. They're animals like us, but unlike other great apes, and of course most egregients were humans and common ships. Piobos never murder each other and they never make war. They seem to use sex, affection and empathy to calm each other down before it

descends into killing. I thought it's so interesting you said that pnomo's used positive touch to prevent and restrain negative touch. That's their default. Yes, I mean that's we use positive touch. And you know, I mean they're constantly rubbing each other. Some of it's very explicit sex that would get them and X rating on iTunes, but most of it is what we might call foreplay or cuddling and licking, lots of liking and touching and rubbing and you know, kind

of snuggling. Do they have cuddle parties. Yes, they have major cuddle parties that they love to combine with lunch. And by the way, I'm not saying that we have to do everything like bonobos. I'm not saying humans should imitate banobos. I am saying we should be inspired by them.

Because when I went to Yale, you know, I thought about being an anthropology major, but you know, I just learned back then that we were hopeless killer apes, that our only paradigm for our behavior as humans was the common chimpanzee or the baboon, and they're very violent and bloodthirsty, and I just thought, you know, this is depressing. I'd rather deal with the fantasies of Shakespeare and you know,

just theater. And so I didn't major in anthropology. And then in nineteen ninety three I saw a special on PBS and then the last species right before they got into humans, was the Venovo. And when they just came swinging onto my screen, I just went, WHOA, what are these incredibly hairy creatures that just seem like they have

so much more fun than I've ever seen. And I affinity, totally, total affinity, and that can be a way to get beyond the civilized veneer that we live under, that you know, basically repressing us in various ways depending on our culture. So it allows us to what I call release our inner banobo or our inner animal. Yeah, I was just gonna sometimes watching animals allows us to do that. That, of course, is the first step of releasing your inner

bnovo is to watch bonobos. Yeah, I mean, I was just going to say that, Like the specific question you ask your book is uh, no one ever asked me that question before, and it is, is your inner banobo yearning to swing free? Wow? What a question. That is good question. It's a really good question. But I mean it's such a great play on words there, thank you. Yes, it has I like to play with words. I like to play. I love to play, and bobos are all about play and they even play with words a little bit.

You know. They there arenbos who are learning to speak English and through sign language and through computer signs, and they are amazing. Now for someone to release their inner bonobo completely, we're not talking about like they're going to want to just have sex with every single person they see on the street. That's not what we're talking about, right,

of course. No, that's a huge characterization. So if I were released my inner bonobo, are we just talking about, like, you know, getting more in touch with your kind of like your sexuality, like your likes, your dislikes, being comfortable in your own body, these sorts of things. That's what we're talking about exactly, except the differences. Simply that you're being inspired by the banobos to do these things, to open up, you know, in all the ways that we

want to do. It doesn't make you into some strange hybrid creature. You would just be hopefully a happier human, a more playful human. He's a more open, empathetic, paceful, you know, peaceful, yes, peaceful, peaceful human. That's what the idea of the Bnobo Way is. And you know, I think that there's a lot of threads that leave into this tapestry of moving towards a more peaceful, more sexually open, more female empowered, more empathetic, more play positive, more eco

sexual society. I think there is a worldwide movement I call it the Bnobo Way, and I think it's important that these creatures exist. And by the way, they are very endangered and we do need to help save them. And that is the last step of the twelve steps to releasing your Inner Venobo, is to save them from extinction so that they can continue to inspire us and

just be here. Yeah, they provide this alternative primate paradigm for something that I think a lot of you know, positive liberals life people are moving towards anyway to enhance the quality and sustainability and sheer erotic enjoyment of human life. Now, is it true that you've run for vice president of the United States? That's correct, right, I did, and with part of Frank Moore was my presidential running mate, right, I know, And now I've done some deep research on you.

Would you argue that right now, of all times and sort of politics and sort of the landscape, like we could use more of the Bonobo way. Yes, I certainly argue that. I mean, I think that, you know, without naming political names, so this this interview can be timeless. You know, we almost have a contest between Bonobo's and common chips right now in the And it's funny to

see a humans sometimes in relation to our chimp cousins. Yeah, and I just yeah, I kind of would like to move towards the Banobo ways of peace through pleasure of general seen empowerment. That's not to say that simply because a woman is in office, you know, she can't be like you know, Katherine the greater Margaret Thatcher and get

a lot of killing done. I mean, human women are obviously capable of that, and yet I think that the feminine side of us, I guess that exists in men too, is something that is now being honored in a way that it wasn't so much in human history before. And maybe we could save ourselves from utter annihilation if we kind of acknowledge this in a positive ecosexual way. And certainly it would be good for the country, it would be good for the world. Now, what does ecosexual mean?

What's the actual definition of that word? Yeah, eco sexual you know, I had there's a new book out by the way that I just wrote the forward to called eco Sexuality. Yes, And it's a collection of ings edited by doctors Serena Anderlini Donofrio, Humanity's professor at the University of Puerto Rico, and Lindsay Hageman. And she's like a

farmer of an Oregon. And they're both bringing together people, scientists and erotic writers and all kinds of people, sex workers and farmers and people that have something to say

about the eroticism of ecology. And I guess it's partly a movement to see Earth as not just Mother Earth, but as lover Earth, as an entity that we can connect with sexually, they can make us feel orgasmic and as well as an entity that needs our care, unlike a mother who often we take poor mothers for granted and we just imagine they'll always be there to take

care of us. And the idea of lover Earth is not only I have this sexual excitement that we can get from taking a walk in the woods that one writer describes as like a natural pornographic movie, but also this sense of responsibility that we do have towards our lovers that we have to, you know, just treat them well and keep them and love them and romance them. And we have to do that with the Earth if

we're going to stay on it. I mean, whatever we do, the Earth will survive one way or another with the comproaches, I guess. And what will we survive on it? Will we and the bonobos and the other large mammals like us? I think that's in question. And this movement in ecosexuality is towards trying to, you know, connect with lover Earth so that we can stay a while. We love Earth. Yeah, Okay, I'll put a link to that on there. I feel like a little like kid giddy like whatever I talk

to you, Okay, yeah, yeah, because there's a play I think. Yeah, I love playing. I just absolutely love it. So I don't want to take on much more time because I would be really respectful. There are a couple more things points I think we should make about Bonova's because you make a lot of really good points in this book, and you know, we want to really what the appetite for people to go and get it, get your book. So one thing, Yeah, there's a lot of points about Banobo's.

But what would you like to get into Yeah, so, uh, we'll end on the question how we you know, maybe two things we can do release in our Bonobo. But but before we get to that point, tell me, first of all, what is hokah hokah and how does it ublicate life? Great minds. I was going to I was going to say, you know, bisexuality is very important to keeping the peace and Bonobos though, and that's what hoka

hoka really is. And that's what hoka hokah is really it's the females do in their their the is sex thing. I mean, basically, hoka hokah is the Bonobo tango. The privatologists calls it genito genital rubbing. But I do think that it is not just about the physical, but it is important to the Bonobo female solidarity, the sisterhood of Banovoville.

And they're not even really sisters. See, Bonobo females migrate from their original tribe that they're born into when they reach puberty, and when they get into the new tribe, they kind of suck up so to speak to whoever they feel as an interesting older female, and then they will groom with that female and you know, do hupahaka

and other things, and then they become friends. They eat together, and this is the building of a sisterhood and female friendship that is very unique among great apes because if you look at common ships where the females also migrate when they go into a new tribe, the other females like, go, oh hey, girl, you're just going to have to forage on your own. Don't come near me, and they let

the every sea for themselves. And among Bonobos because of this sexual intimacy that they build, which also includes lots of spending time together. As you know, sex is not just about the act. It's about spending time together, and so they develop this love for each other. And if a bonobo male is so bold and kind of ignorant as to attack a female, her girlfriends will jump on him and stop it. Wow, when you're a banobo, your girlfriends have your back. So interesting. So there's very very

little rape among bonobos, and no kill him. They might smack the boy around a bit, but they don't kill him. And the males are also very bisexual in a kind of a different way. But it does help to keep the peace in the Nobo culture as well that the males when they start to fight, they will fight. They are not angels, they're animals, but they will turn the fighting into something that is sometimes called penis sencing, where they rub against each other, or they do something called

rump rubbing as you call it. Actually it's a primatology term and it can be used to mean other types of activities among other animals, where penis stencing is actually kind of violent, but among bonobos it's actually it means that the violence is being transmuted into this pleasurable activity that may go on into orgasm, but just as often just ends up just being the guys just hang out and drink a beer together, well, you know, have a ban add on or something. No beer. Actually that was

not right. But the idea is that the males, you know, they fight and then shake hands, they don't and that's what they sometimes called the Bonobo handshake. Okay, So you ask a very interesting question, what might happen if we could somehow reorient ourselves toward our more loving bonobo side rather than our innerman champanzee. And you quote doctor the Walls saying he doesn't believe the banobo's free love would necessarily suit us, and you take you don't compleely agree

with that that quote. Now, I admire doctor de Wall. He's like one of my heroes and my idols in so many ways. He really brought attention to Banobos and he was one of the first that I started reading when I discovered them through that PBS special And I'm privileged to meet him. And he mentioned the Banovo ay and his book The Banovo and the Atheists. Yeah, I kind of think that he's not that familiar with some humans bnobovills, like the swing scene, like the polyamory scene,

like the either the BDSM scene, where. But what I'm saying is, I don't know that he's familiar with how humans, Oh, I see can be as banovo ask as we can be, especially a swing party, which I feel is just like a gathering of Bnobos with less hair and more hairs. But now it doesn't mean we're just like them, you know. Again, I know you said, we don't have the arm power to swing through the trees like that, and we also,

for various reasons, we're civilized. We don't have the gumption to swing sexually like they do, right, not for the most part, But I don't. I just think that, you know. And now we're kind of segueing into how to release your inner Banobo. It doesn't have to involve, you know, swinging or being just like a Banovo. It just has to involve finding that part of you that's inside that is playful and that is free and that and that swings.

But you know, in a more I guess general way, Yes, what's the first step if you want to release you in Banovo? We let's not get too advanced because we want people to read your book. But what's that first first step is to watch the banobo? Like I said, you know, seeing how they how they do it. Just they're They're everywhere on the internet, so that shouldn't be a problem. It's ideal to be able to go to the congo, but they're difficult. It's as I said, they're

highly endangered, so there aren't very many of them. If you have a zoo near you, you should go see them at the zoo. They're down at the San Diego Zoo. Give me one more thing that going beyond just watching them for inspiration, Well, one more thing. I mean, there's there's twelve steps. I know, I know that. I guess the third step is go Banobo's in bed, and I guess that's a that's a basic thing to emphasize here.

I feel all the steps are kind of equal in a way, and of course the last step of saving the banobos is incredibly important, but going bonobos in bed is really you know, whether or not we can save the world, which I don't know. I'd like to try, but you know, the whole piece through pleasure paradigm could be a pipe dream. But certainly we can change our own life, and certainly we can improve our sex life.

We can release our inner bnobo in bed with our lover, or maybe more than one lover, but usually most of us just have one, which is fine, and to just kind of try to enjoy sex like a banobo without the pretense and the hypocrisy and the shame that humans put on sex all the time. And that goes also if you don't have a partner, if you're just masturbating, because banobos masturbate, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's

something that feels good. You know. Sex is something to share, but it's also, you know, something that's just a part of you, about of you feeling good, and sometimes you need to calm yourself down, and maybe if people masturbate

it a little more. You know, there's a thing that's in one of the steps called metibation, where you meditate as you masturbate, and then we come back to our games in the erotic theater of the mind that help you to understand why you go for what you go for and maybe how you might be able to improve

upon that or just accept that mediation. Well, but I'm what I'm saying is combine masturbation with meditation and to do it with a little more intention of owning it, you know, and not letting it be just something that takes hold of you. But the way that we approach yoga, and I'm not saying you should always do that with masturbation, sometimes it's nice to just fall down and let it

own you. Anyway, I'm out here, you know, kind of eating my drum and trying to save the bonobos as well as perhaps the human race, but certainly just trying to have a good time and help others to do so. I love that you say, thenobos hold a key to a world without war. Absolutely they do. They hold that key. They are so close to us in so many ways, and yet they don't kill. But that is so amazing,

and can't we learn from that. We're always trying to learn how to, you know, not descend into violence, how to how to do anger management, now, what to do about our police. I'm not saying I had the answers that I am saying I think the benobos might, and we fortunately are now doing more and more studies on them because they are so sexual. Course, in those halls of academia for decades, even though they were discovered in nineteen thirty, they were barely studied because you couldn't get

tenure and say you look bnogos. But now I guess it's a little more liberal in some ways, although you know, my approach maybe is still kind of controversial. But certainly benobos are being studied now more and more, and there's recent studies show that they have language that they're comparing to human baby talk, So you know, they're so close to us, and the way that they use sex and affection and empathy and play to just bring that violent

tension right down to where there is no killing. I'd like to just tell you one more little story if I could. They're short, No, it actually could be long. I'm going to try to make it short. I got it from Christopher Ryan just before I finished writing the book, and I showed the book to him that Christopher Rid's the author Sex is Done. And he he said, you know,

it's interesting because you talk about baboons. But Robert Sapolski, who's a great primatologist from Stanford, he did a study on baboons, a long term study on this troop of baboons, and baboons are very very male dominant and violent and vicious, and they make war. And you know, they certainly were brought to me as a yale that you know, this

is why humans are irredeemably violent too. So in any case, these males were right were in charge of the baboon troop, and the whole troop is right near a garbage dump that is by, you know, kind of a tourist lodge, and so it's got all this delicious junk hamburgers and cake, and of course the males, the strong males, are eating it all and fighting over it, and certainly not letting any of the females or the more nice guys have any and so the nice guys and the females are

kind of towering for basically years in this way, I guess a couple of years, and the males are growing stronger and more vicious, and then one day they throw some tuberculosis tainted meat into the garbage jump, and all the males eat it and they die. And of course the females and the nicer guys didn't eat it because

they weren't allowed by the stronger males. And they find themselves with a very shrunk down society of baboons without these big, strong, nasty males, and they create a community where they can live and raise their children and it's very Banova lesque. The females are in charge and the nice guys and they have no no killing anymore, and they have very little violence, and they're grooming and they're having more sex, and they're I mean, they're virtually going Bonobos.

And he comes back Sepolski and he sees that they're like that ten years later, and that not only that, I don't know if those ten years or a few years later. Not only that, but in those tribes the baboon males travel. So he thought for sure when the baboon males from other tribes would come into this peaceful piece through pleasure tribe, now, they would just definate the little tribe and kill the nice guys and rape the females. But no, they kind of maintained it. They maintained this

piece through pleasure harmony. And they said to the new baboon males, if you don't act nice, not gonna let you obsessed with us. We're not even gonna let you in here, so better be nice. And they were nice. And I don't know the state of the tribe the truth now, but this is a study of many years and it just shows if thea Boons can go bobos? Well, that can't wait. I say we end on that note,

that question right there. Thank you so much Susan for being on my show and for the important advocacy work you do to save the menobos and to make us more peaceful as a species as well. Wow, thank you, Scott. This has been such a pleasure. Thanks thanks for listening to The Psychology Podcast with Doctor Scott Barry Kaufman. I hope you found this episode just to stop provoking and interesting as I did. If you'd like to read the show notes for this episode, or here are past episodes,

you can go to the Psychology Podcast dot com. BA