34: How Happiness Can Accelerate Your Success

and Education at Stanford University. She's the founder of the popular news site Fulfillment Daily and our frequent contributor to Harvard Business Review. In Psychology Today, and I also am honored to call her my friend. Thanks Emma for being on my podcast. Oh, thanks so much, Scott. I'm happy to be here. We go way back, don't we. Oh, yes, we do. And You've always been a source of inspiration for me, even like ten years ago, two thousand and three. I think I met you two thousand and three, Is

that right? I think? So? Oh, Mike, why Scottie. Yeah, You've always been such a bright light, and so I'm so excited that you have a new book out and A big thesis of your book is that happiness is the fast track to success, not the other way around. I thought we could unpack that a little bit. It's a sentiment that needs to be heard, but it's not very prominent. I don't think in our work culture today, right, this misconception that in order to be successful we have

to postpone our happiness. And what research is really showing is that if we do end up taking care of our well being first, the result is that we will be more successful in a number of different ways. Right. First of all, I wanted to find what is happiness in your definition? Then what is success in your definition? I like my asl was definition of success as liking yourself, liking what you do, and liking how you do it. And that's how you open up the book. Is that

how you define success? Yes, and I think success looks different, you know, whether you're a ballerina in New York City or an investment banker. You know, it could also vary depending on whether you're a stay at home mom for example. So really everybody will have their own version of what it is that they want to accomplish in their life and what it looks like for them to be their best selves. So that's how I'm defining success in particular,

and ask what is happiness? Well? As for happiness, again, it's such a fluid definition that we all have, and again everyone will have their own personal feeling of what happiness is. But what I explore in the book is that really happiness that is long term and that leads to a more fulfilling life in addition to a more successful life, is a life in which you are taking good care of yourself and also caring for others, and the results of both of those things really go a

long way. Sure, And again success can be defined in different ways. So if we define it just as publicly recognized success, which I don't think is how you solely define it in your book at all, but some people do define it as achievements, publicly recognized achievements. And I mean, I think there are lots of instances I can think of examples off the top of my head. I won't name any names of people who are widely successful who

are not happy whatsoever. So it's not always concominent with happiness, right, That's absolutely right, Like, are there some forms of success that you could be like as happy as can be, and it still won't help with that. Like, if I'm like the happiest person in the world, will that help me be a good physicist whatsoever? So it probably will. I guess what I know is that many of us live according to very popular but also false theories of success.

For example, we believe we have to work ourselves into the ground. We have to believe we have to focus NonStop, always get more done. We believe that we can't have success without stress, that living a high adrenaline overdriven life is the only way to go. We believe we have to look out for ourselves as number one, even if that sometimes means elbowing people out of the way. We believe we have to be self critical and hyper focused,

et cetera, et cetera. So all these are commonly held notions, but what research is showing is that they run current counter to current research, and so I, you know, I can go into those in more detail. I feel like, yeah, you know, we'll do this organically. Yeah great. So what are the other benefits of happiness other than success? Well, it depends, you know, again, depends how you're defining happiness.

I think broadly, you know, as the positive psychology has divided, you know that happiness into two kind of spheres, one being more you know, hedonic happiness. That for your real chocolate cake, which I know you very much enjoy scutty, so do I. And you know that brings a lot of pleasure, and you know, sex, drugs and rock and roll.

That kind of pleasure is wonderful, but it's also very fleeting, and it can lead us to keep wanting more, keep seeking it out, and yet never being fully satisfied because it never brings long term as that long term feeling

of well being. And then you monic happiness is that happiness that's derived out of close relationships with others, out of feelings of love and connection, out of feelings of service for others, and out of a life that seems to have a greater meaning, a greater purpose, living beyond just your own immediate needs and wants, but doing something for a greater purpose. For some people it takes the form of spirituality. So those are the ways that you

can think of for happiness. But that more you tomonic. It's great to have a balance of both. There's no reason we shouldn't enjoy this planet to its fullest, but at the same time making sure we have enough of that you demonic experience in our life will help us be happier in a more long term, sustainable way, and, as I'll argue in the book, also help you bring up the very best in you so that you can

achieve your goals. I think that's a big goal pose of psychology is bringing out the best in yourself and others. You know, I've been reading Aristotle's writings on you'd aemonia. I don't think he focused much on social relationships. He kind of defined it as bringing out the best in yourself for sure. In terms of virtues, maybe one of

his virtues was kindness. I'm trying to remember his list of twelve and eight virtues that yet, but I don't recall him when he talked about pneumonia talking too much on the social relationships aspect. Well, and virtues are always, not always, but often in relation to other people, for example,

like you said, kindness. And what research is showing now overwhelming amount of research on social connection is that we have such a profound need to connect in a positive way with others from the moment we're born until the very last days of our life impacts our health or well being, our longevity, you know, the inflammation at the level of ourselves and so forth. So it's such an

important one to focus on. And research also shows that if you are relating to others in a way that actually involves a service component, an altruistic component, a compassionate component,

you reap the benefits. Perhaps even more, one interesting study showed that they compared volunteers to non volunteers who had both gone through very stressful life experiences, and those who engage in more volunteer work in their life actually did not experience the fact of stress is negative consequences on their health. In other words, the fact that they volunteered buffered them from the negative impact of stress in their lives.

But another study showed that if people volunteer for selfish reasons in other words, maybe they donate money because they want their name on a big plaque, they don't get the benefits. So it has to come from a place of authenticity and errors, and that aristentilian view of has to be like this true virtue within you, not just a facade you said. They don't get the benefits in terms of like personal well being and health Oh wow, that's really interesting. It's very interesting. It has to be

an authentic feeling. And again, you know, what research on compassion does show is that altruism and compassion are very natural to states, to us, they are states that we are. They're like an impulse within us, and you can see that in kids. So you can see that even in the animal world, that we are driven to help another one who's in pain, even sometimes at the cost to ourselves. And one of the reasons we often don't see adults doing that is, you know, sometimes there is a sense

of being overwhelmed by the amount of help needed. But the other thing is that we often stop ourselves from helping others because we worry about what people will think about us. We're worried about what people think of us simply help others. Yeah. It's researched on by Dale Miller

on the norm of self interest? Have you heard of that? Interesting? Well, he found that people have this natural impulse to want to help others, but then they'll stop themselves because they'll think other people are believe they're doing it out of self interest because there's this norm of self interest. So, for example, in one of the studies He asked men if they would be willing to attend a breast cancer

awareness meeting of some sort, and the men were. Their first impulse was to say yes, of course, but then later they were more likely to say, well, no, because people will probably think I'm trying to pick someone up there, because Parson reply, it's all women. And so there's this norm of self interest. Everyone is going to believe I'm

doing something out of self interest because we don't. You know, what research really shows is we really should have more of a norm of the norm of compassion is more realistic. We are driven to help others. We do stop ourselves for various reasons, not just the normal self interest. But if you give people, you know, just a few seconds to decide whether or not they're going to act fairly. For example, in a prisoner's dilemma game, if you give them just a few seconds, they're more likely to make

the fair choice. But if you give them a little longer and they have time to think about it, you know, maybe they'll change their mind. This is an economics game. Yeah, so your book highlights a lot of good of human nature, which is very refreshing. Well, I would say that is our natural tendency. It's just that it gets covered up for various reasons. Yes, we have lots of natural tendencies. I think we also have some natural tendencies towards insecurity

and more darker emotions. I think those are natural tendencies too. You're right that they can get These other tendencies you're talking about in your book that are really important to highlight can get covered up by these other tendencies. Natural tens. Absolutely, and I think stress is a really big one, and that's what we're seeing in the current day and age. Everybody is running, everybody has got too much on their to do list, their schedules, they're overscheduled, and there's because

of technology. I think that we are living at a faster pace than ever before. In fact, there's a study I'm forgetting now the exact cool, but the pace of life has been increasing at a huge rapidity over the last few decades, and technology, of course is something to do with that. But what we see is that when we are in a situation where we are highly stressed, we become more self focused naturally because we're instinctively driven to protect ourselves. But as a consequence, we have less

of a natural ability to connect with others. The other thing is that under a lot of stress, our empathy can decline as well. So you know, after food and shelter, we derive our greatest sense of well being from social connection. Yet stress is making us more self focused and less able to connect. So that's why it's really important to address that. And I'm not talking about you know, short term boosts of stress that help us, you know, get through a deadline or save our lives or like the

good stress. I'm talking about this chronic, lasting stress that many of us are on because of the pace of life. Yeah. And you argue that we have simply accepted over extension as a way of light. Yeah, that don't sound good. Doesn't sound good. Yeah, And in fact, I would even say that we want to live in an overdriven way because we believe that's the only way to be productive. So in a sense, it's like we're always tapping into

our sympathetic nervous system. We're constantly in fight or flight because we believe that's the only way we can function and get things done. And that's why we're you know, fueling up with caffeine and just overscheduling ourselves waiting till the last minute to get things done because we believe that's the only way we can be productive. What we're really doing is wearing ourselves out terrifically, really exhausting our

nervous system and even creating imbalance in our bodies. So many people come home at night they're so wound up that they can't sleep, and they need alcohol to wind down, and then they need sleeping pills to go to sleep. So you know, we've sometimes forgotten how to calm down.

And yet we weren't like that as kids, and we also we don't see that in the animal world, but fueling ourselves both with our habits and also with the substances that we're taking in to be in a state of constant, extremely high adrenaline mode, which is further exhausting us when what we actually want is more energy. So I do make that point in the book that we are really kind of wearing and tearing on our body and that there's a better way to do this. I'll

mestering ima. I want to think this through. So at the highest levels of achievement in some fields, don't you certainly have to make some sacrifices in well being? I mean a lot of what you're saying is really awesome. But like if I have Elon Musk here right now, you know, and I know he says, I will find my workers if they won't work like more than sixty

hours a week and won't do this. This is this, Like wouldn't he make the case that like, look, you know, like I wouldn't create it a rocket if I just

daydreamed all day. Yeah, absolutely well. And you know, I don't know Ellen Musk, and he seems like an extraordinary individual and there are extraordinary individuals who don't need much sleep and so forth in talk, but I've also read interviews of him where he says that he spends time with his five kids and answers email at the same time, and that he feels like he can do both things at once. Now I don't know whether I don't know exactly the situation in his personal life, nor do I

know if he's happy. But one thing that I would say that in general, you are able to access your best self and to be you know, as genius as you are, maybe like Ellen Musk or not, but you don't have to do so at a cost yourself. And in fact, if you don't do so to cost yourself, you'll probably do better. And if you foster resilience within yourself instead of always you know, pumping yourself up with

adrenaline so that you're just exhausting yourself. If you cultivate more calmness in your life so that you're managing your energy better, and if you take time to detach from work, you're probably going to do better. And that's all based on the data that I've been researching, especially detachment from work. Actually, it's funny because people have in the field have different

theories about that, about what the determinists of success are. So, you know, if we had like Angela Duckworth here right now, she would say it's great. She wouldn't say it's happiness. She'd say it's always, you know, persevering, persevering person. You know, how do we tease apart all of these determinants of success. Well, I also think it has to come from a you know, for a reader, for example, it has to come from

their own experience. I think that most of us, and most people that I've seen in academia, whether it was at Yale or Stanford or in Silicon Valley, is that grit is definitely something that people have. And people are also extremely stressed, and they're also extremely exhausted. They also don't have a life, and they also burn out. And we're seeing across professions, whether we're talking about nonprofits, we're talking about academia, we're talking about the medical world. Over

fifty percent of people have burnout. And this is kind of crazy. It's a time and age when burnout has become something normal. We've come to accept that all of this is normal, and yet it's not normal, and there is a better way. We can't change the demands put on us, and we can't change our own personal ambitions.

We should go for our goals, no reason not to. However, we can't change how we go about doing so so that we don't burn out and so that we can be successful in the long term rather than crashing and maybe sacrificing not just our happy small thing but also our health appreach it sister, Yeah, no, for sure. And there you know your research in reading your book, maybe think of the literature and harmonious versus obsessive passion that

Robert Dolren has conducted. And you know, I look at his structural pathways and everything between harmonious obsessive and the

harmonious path. And he's looked at performance, high performance and sports in psychology, among psychology majors, amongst musicians, and he finds that it is a much more direct path to success when you're harmoniously passionate and it's connected to vitality and well being and gratitude, lots of things you talk about, whereas the obsessively passionate path is related to greater burnout, greater stress, and it's a much more circuitous route to performance.

It could still lead to performance. It's still a path to performance. Unhappiness is still a path that it could be a path of performance, but it's more circuitous and it's not driven with as much vitality in life. So I see great linkages there between that literature and the stuff you're talking about. Yeah. Absolutely, And besides the like you're saying, it leads to burnout the obsessive one, and once you burnout, you really aren't able to too much. So it's not a path to success that really we

should recommend to people. I would probably also think there's a tie here with intrinsic motivation and extrinsic Yeah, where harmonious productivity versus obsessive harmonious is probably much more driven by intrinsic motivation. And I think that a lot of things I'm talking about in my book are meant to foster that intrinsic motivation within. You know, when you feel better because you have detached from work, you're more intrinsically

engaged with what you're doing it. You know, when you've taken time to have fun, you're going to you're just going to have a much more intrinsically motivated approach to the things that you're doing in your life. Wonderful. And you talk about six keys to happiness and success, and I mean, that's most of your book is the six keys that I don't want to give it all away. I like people to read your book, which is a

really terrific book. But let's go through the six Let's just like touch on them and I'll read each one out, and you know, let's just have a little bit short of conversation on it. One is to live or work in the moment. Yeah, can you tell me a little

bit more like expanded that a little bit. Sure it can sound simplistic, but it's actually really something to think about because we're so driven to achieve, we're constantly trying to just check off that next thing on our to do list, constantly thinking about, Okay, what's next, what's my next thing, what's my next thing, And so we're so

focused on the future. And research shows that you know, when you're constantly your mind is constantly in the future, you're actually far less happy, for one than if your mind is in the present. But if you think about it too, a mine is constantly in the future as a mind that's anxious, So if you're stressed or anxious,

it's because of something in the future. But what also happens is that when your mind is constantly in the future is that you actually are less present to be more productive and focused in that present moment because your mind is so used to jumping around and you're less able to achieve what you're doing in a more effective and efficient way. The other thing, too, is relationships. So relationships are key no matter what feels you're in, whether

it's clients or employees or colleagues, et cetera. And what we see is that if you're able to be more present, you're also able to be much more charismatic. So if you think of like the quintessential charisma example, people will say, Oh, I met President so and so, and I felt like I was the only person in the room when I was talking to that A lot women say that a lot, right,

And so what is it? Why is it that they felt like the only person in the room because he was one hundred percent present with them at that moment. And what happens is that makes you charismatic. It makes you magnetic, and it makes you actually have deep relationships with people who start to trust to be loyal to you. You're able to empathize with them because you're present. You actually can listen to someone, you can hear the nuances in their tone, you look at them, you can actually

empathically much more clearly understand where they're coming from. You're much less likely to miss out on something. So it makes you a much more powerful presence as well, not just professionally in terms of when you're working on a particular project, but also in terms of your interactions with people, which we know are so key to success as well. Yeah,

I love how you brought in the chrisma thing. I was going to compliment you on that Actually a lot of people don't make that linkage too much, and I wouldn't even say so much Christmas. It kind of sometimes has also connotations like a superficial thing, right, But really, what you're talking there about social connection, And yeah, I loved how you brought that in there. So another thing you talk about is resiliency as important. How can someone

train their nervous system to bounce back from setbacks? What's like one thing someone could do to flex that muscle.

So at this point relates back to what I was talking about earlier about how we are so overdriven and we're so used to tapping into our sympathetic nervous system and we're pumped up adrenaline both through our habits but also through our consumption of caffeine and other forms of stimulants that we've forgotten to tap into and really become familiar with and learn how to tap into our parasympathetic nervous system, our very natural ability to calm down so

that we can restore ourselves, so that we can regain balance, so our body can rebuild this resources to our mind also can do the same. And that's what I talk about in terms of resilience we were overdoing one, we're forgetting how do the other, which is again why people are using so much anxiety different and anti anxiety medication at the moment, having taking sleep medications, and also finding that they need alcohol at night to unwind. So you know what I'm agreeing is it's very natural for us

to be able to tap into that system. We just have to remind ourselves of how to do so. And one very simple way and very effective way is through breathing. The breath is one of the only systems in our body that we can both control voluntarily but that's also automatic yep. And emotions are actually tied to our breath in a very powerful way. So different emotions are tied to different rhythms of breath and different types of breathing.

So for example, if you're feeling angry, you'll probably be breathing faster and in a more shallow way, versus when

you're feeling relaxed, for example. So in this one particular study, participants were told to come into the lab and we're given the instruction to recall different emotions, and as they did so, the psychologists measured how they were breathing in various different ways found that low and behold, yes, every single emotion that they tapped into, which was sin, the five basic emotions, anger, sadness, happiness, anxiety, and one more that I'm not recalling right now, And they found that

when they had them breathe in this way, that there was a very distinct pattern for each emotion. The more interesting part of the study was the second part. Different people came in and different participants and they were only given the breathing instructions and then they were asked, how do you feel. What the scientists found was that the participants started to generate the emotions through the breathing patterns

they were given. So I think this is a revolutionary study, honestly, because a lot of research on emotion regulation right now just talks about talking yourself out of a situation, reframing the situation. But all you need to do is be really pissed off or really stressed out. And you know that that doesn't really work when you're in a very high intensity emotion, right yeah, oh yeah, right, So it's so hard to talk yourself out of something. In fact,

it can make things worse. So the breath is very powerful because what this research shows is that through breathing you can change how you feel. One of the important things that it can do is help you to calm your nervous system down very quickly. And so that's what

I talk about. And I've also conducted a research study with arguably some of the most stressed out people in our society, which are veterans who return from Iraq in Afghanistan with combat trauma, and we did a breathing intervention with them which helped them sleep better almost immediately and

reduce their anxiety and PTSD scores very right. And when we followed up with them a year later, even though the intervention just lost one week it was one week workshop about a twenty hour twenty four hour workshop, their benefits were still held. So the breath is something very powerful that people really need to learn to use more.

Even in the moment. You know, you can be in a meeting, in a stressful situation, lengthen your breathing, deep in your breathing, breathe into your belly, and lengthen the exhale in particular, because the exhale is linked more to the soothing mechanisms of parasympathetic people can't see right now but I'm practicing it. I can see. Yeah, there's not gonna be video. This is audioly, but I'm practice. I'm trying. I'm trying. Thanks Emma. Do you teach this? Do you

do you do courses? Yeah? Well, especially after leading the Veterans Study and having so many veterans contact me after that and asking if they could learn, I became an instructor and I myself practice breathing every day because I find that it's made a huge impact on my ability to exactly bounce back from stressful episodes and my ability to stay commerce throughout the day in general. Yeah, and this is related to your next thing on managing your energy, right,

and so I think we covered that a lot. Let's go move on to the next one, which is my favorite one, and that's doing nothing. I just love doing nothing. But no, what you talk about there is it's not really nothing. You say that it's good to have what you refer to as purposeful mind wandering. What is purposeful

mind watering and how is it actually beneficial to creativity? Yes? Well, I interview you a lot in this chapter, so you may be able to answer this question better than I. But I again, this goes against the theory that you know, this idea that we have to focus constantly on your niche keep learning about it, keep stay one pointed, and focus all the time so that you can become an

absolute expert. But you know, what research is showing is that if we want to have more creative, innovative breakthroughs, we really need to create time in our life for our mind to go into a space that's more idle. That's it's that space that we go into when we daydream, that place right before sleep, when we're really quite really in sort of a relaxed I would even say sometimes it's a bit of a daze, and it's the proverbial idea that comes to you in the shower. It comes

when you're not thinking about it. And this is something we've forgotten to do because because we can focus all day, even when you're not at work, you're on your phone. You know, in the past, maybe we waited for the bus and we're just kind of gazing around, or we you know, we're at the doctor's office and we just sort of sat there and think about anything in particular.

But nowadays we can be focused twenty four to seven from the moment you wake up, you can start looking at your phone until you go to you're checking your social media or your email, et cetera. We have completely created a situation where we may never have the time to be idle to daydream. But what research shows is that if you do make purposefully give yourself time to be idle, to let your mind wander. For example, that's been the big secret of authors like J. R. Tolkien, C. S. Lewis,

Charles Dickens. They always took walks every day religiously. Presumably one of the reasons for that is just to let their minds, you know, be free for a moment and generate those creative insights that they're so well known for.

A couple other things that I do tap into in that chapter is that another way to do that is to just have more fun and play more and we know better, yeah, which I know you also love and which as adults many of us don't do anymore, you know, And we're the only mammals, by the way, who don't play into adulthood. And you know, unless it's a scheduled Saturday morning soccer game or some kind of alcohol induced party or something we've forgotten to just make time to play.

I mean, I just encourage people to just play with your kids, authentically, play with your dog, do some fun, silly stuff. And then well, the third thing is diversifying your activities too, just doing things that read outside your field. Learn, you know, take up a pottery class, do something completely different. That's how you stretch your mind. That's how you stretch your imagination. It's how you come up with creative insights.

One example that I get in the book that I only learned about when I was writing I thought was so interesting, was this one company that asks people to come up with novel concepts to solve problems and technology. And what they found is that those people more likely to solve the problems are people who are not in the field. So if let's say it's a biochemistry problem, it's more likely someone who's outside of the field of

biochemistry who is able to solve that problem the outsider's mindset. Yeah, I love it. I love it. You also talk about the importers of being good to yourself, and that actually can improve your ability to be capassion to others. You know, there's this myth that you know you to be good

to others. You know, you like it's that it's selfish if you're just being good to yourself, you know, but actually, like increasing your own well being can actually increase chances that you can help others too, right one particular, a lot of people think self criticism is essential for self improvement, but what research is showing is that overwhelmingly if you are self critical, you're basically self sabotaging as well, you're less likely to be resilient in the face of failure.

I mean, just think about it, and so you're running a marathon and you have a friend next to you just constantly criticizing you, and when you fall, they tell you're a failure. I mean, what are the chances you're going to have the enthusiasm and the momentum to keep going. Right, and research in self compassion, which sounds really soft, but

again the data on it is really hard. Is that if you treat yourself as you would a friend, with more kindness and concern and more understanding, then you're actually going to be much more resilient when you make a mistake or when you fail. You're going to have much greater psychological well being in health, and you're going to ultimately be able to be more productive and be able to achieve your goals much more easily than through self criticism.

I'm in I'd love to not have as much self criticism, that's for sure. And of course Christineth, who is going to be on the podcast and at a later at some point, done tremendous work on that topic work. Yeah, absolutely, so, I just want to wrap it up here. It's a terrific book. You say. These strategies are not complex. These are things that people can like read your book and

really adopt in a fast way that can make huge strides. Now, when you say fast track, you're not trying to say like there's like it shortcuts to success, you know, right, That's not what you're saying. You're saying that it will greatly facilitate success and fulfillment in a way that if you just shoot for the fulfillment or just shoot for the success, it could actually lower your well being right

as well. Well yeah, well, in particular, I mean, like we talked about the beginning, there's two ways of achieving success, one but burning yourself out, and one that can be of long term, sustainable and fulfilled at the same time and bring out the best in you so really I would say this, this is the way to go. I love that. I just want to ender that note because I just I think that's the point here. We want to bring out the best in people, and we are

at our best when we're happy. Right. Oh. Thanks Evan. I'm so happy to be your friend. It's wonderful to be your friend, Scottie, And thanks for everything that you do and all your support and encouragement. Thanks for listening to The Psychology Podcast with Doctor Scott Barry Kaufman. I hope you found this episode just as an informative and thought provoking as I did. If you don't like to read the show notes for this episode or here past episodes, you can go to the Psychology Podcast dot com