10: How to change your habits

Texas at Austin. You can sult for companies and trust in using cognitive science and their businesses. You're in the scientific advisory boards for the Doctor of phil Show and The Doctor Oz Show, and most recently your author of the book Smart Change. Even though recently has found that fifty percent of the things Doctor Oz says are incorrect, maybe he needs you now more than ever. I can only hope. Yeah, yeah, you know, I was. I was, Yeah,

fifty percent. That's that's probably about right. You know, it turns out. I mean, I do this weekly radio show here in Austin, and and it's seven and a half minutes long. It's called Two Guys on Your Head, and I can only imagine how much, And and we we go through all kinds of gyrations to come up with seven and a half minutes of content once a week. So if you've got to do an hour a day, you know, I can only imagine how quickly you run out of new ways to scare people. Yeah, that's that's true.

So I want to start off with was one of most fundamental questions that your book addresses, and that's why is it so darn hard to change our habits? Yeah?

So the thing about habit change is that most people who set about trying to change their habits, they do it without how having any understanding it all about the way that the mind works, and so they spend a tremendous amount of time working against themselves to rather than working with the way that the habit system and the motivational system actually operate, and so often you actually end up failing in your attempts to change behavior from the very moment that you set out and describe what it

is that you're trying to do. And so the idea behind smart change was, let's start by teaching people a little bit about the way the mind works, and in particular focusing on habits and motivation, and then step back from that and say, given that, here are some very specific tools that you can use that work with what we know about the way that motivation works, so that you can be as effective as possible at trying to change behavior. And that's sort of the underlying idea of

the book. Why is habits so hard to change? I'm not sure I got the answer from that. Well, so what makes habits so hard to change is that, well, things, I mean, one of the things that makes habits hard to change is that we do things. The things that we do by habit we do utterly mindlessly. I mean, the whole point of having a habit is that you've now associated a behavior with a particular environment, and so you can do that behavior without actually having to think

about it, which is great. Most of the time. You know, your morning routine would be an absolute disaster if you had to think about every single thing you were going to do. Where's my toothbrush? You know? What do I do next? So here's the deal on habit. We most of the time our habits are really good things. Now,

think about your morning routine. You get up in the morning, you brush your teeth, you wash your hair, you do all that stuff, and you don't have to think about anything that you're doing because you can do each step at home in the way that you always do it. You have associated that situation with that set of behaviors, and you know how valuable this is. Because if you travel, you go to a hotel, now suddenly nothing's worth it suppose to be. You can't remember all the steps you're

supposed to take. You can't even find your toothbrush, and frankly, right by the time you get dressed and stumble out of your hotel room, you're exhausted because you've had to spend the whole morning thinking about every single aspect of your behavior. So habits are great most of the time because they allow us to do these things mindlessly. Now that's one of the reasons why habits are hard to change,

because they're mindless. The second thing that makes them hard to change is that a lot of the times our habits are influencing what it is we like, what it is we want to do, and we are wired to really want to do things that are going to feel right for us in the short term. A lot of times when we're trying to behavior and change our habits. We're trying to switch to start doing things that are going to be good for us in the long term, but maybe not so good for us in the short term.

So we're going to stop eating that really delicious ice cream and hopefully, you know, have a better beach ready body by summer. We're going to exercise more, or we're gonna stop checking email every thirty seconds and actually try to get things written. All of that is it requires us to go against the things that we want to do in the short term in order to do things that are better for us in the long term. And

both of those are really hard to do. So both of those are reasons why habits are really hard to change. They sure are. Have you personally tried to change any habits that you have through your own theory? You know I have. I've done several different things. One is that I'm actually I lost about forty pounds about ten, ten or eleven years ago, congratulations, thank you. And I've managed

to keep most of that forty pounds off. And a lot of what I did there is it involves things that are related to what is in the book, and I can use that as an example throughout here if you want, Yeah, that would be really helpful. And I can also bring in my own personal examples. I want you to help sear me of to lose a couple pounds. I don't know about forty, but I can't imagine why you'd want to do that better. I'd like to lose a couple And I would also very much like to

stop picking my nails. Really, you know, I stopped biting my nails really, and yeah, and and and that's another example. I actually use that in the book, and I can I can help you with that. Oh please do I would, I would give you the biggest hug. Well, well, let me so, let's actually this. Let's use that as an example for so. I bit my nails from the time I was five years old until I was in grad

school down to the down to the stuff. I mean, it was really disastrous and uh and and I nothing stopped it, right, But you know, my mom would nag me endlessly as a kid, and she she actually would get that hot pepper stuff that she would put on my nails. And all that succeeded in doing was making me like spicy food. Nothing work. But but the very first thing you have to do it is is actually

too because hows are done mindlessly. You actually have to take two weeks and fill out a habit diary where figure out when you're doing it okay, and when you're doing it, what you're feeling, what the situation was, and stuff like that. And if you don't have a sheet of paper handy for a habit diary, you can download one. I have this website, smartthinkingbook dot com. You go to the smart change tab and there's a free diary. There's a free iPhone app journal. So is that iPhone app?

I don't have an iPhone app yet? I ought to? You ought to Someone listening to this podcast should give you lots of money to make to make an eye develop it. Yeah, yeah, but I have a smart change journal. You can download that thing for free. It's got a fourteen day habit diary in it. So what you want to do is before you even try to make any changes, just watch yourself for two weeks. Ask yourself, when am I doing this, Where am I doing it, how am

I feeling and stuff like that. And I actually did that. So when I was in grad school, I finally realized, you know what this nail biting thing is not going to get me any dates. So so I decided it was time to stop. And I started by figuring out when do I do this? And I discovered that I would bite my nail sitting at my desk reading. So I would you know, because when you're a grad student, that's pretty much your life you spent. You sit at a desk and you read stuff. So while I was

reading articles, I would bite my nails. And so I actually went out and and now you so now now it comes to the second principle. Now you have to you have to change your behavior. Here's the place where most people failed when they change behaviors, because they start by saying, I need to stop biting my nails. Now, the problem with that is that's a negative goal. Why is that a problem because it's something you don't want to do. And the reason that that's a problem is

because your habit learning system is an active system. It wants to associate behaviors with the environment. If if you say I don't want to do something, then what you're doing is focusing yourself on not acting well. The habit learning system can't learn not to do something. So so every time that you don't act. Your habit learning system

doesn't learn anything. There's nothing to learn. So what you need to do instead is to create positive goals, positive actions that you're going to perform in a particular situation. So what you want to do is to create a new set of actions that's going to interfere with what you're doing. Now. Now, for me, since I would bite my nails while I was sitting at my desk reading, I bought a bunch of desk toys. Oh wow, you

know what I tried. By the way I pick my nails, I don't bite them, Okay, But something I tried is carrying a motion around with me every verey when and whenever I feel the urge to pick my nails, I rub. Well, here's what I would say is it's really useful to find a behavior that's going to interfere with the thing you're trying to stop doing. So something you can do while you would normally be picking at your nails, that that would make it hard to do that, But but

that behavior is more benign, Like what's a good example. Well, that's why I play with desk toys because because it's a relatively benign thing to do, and it's really awkward to try and in my case, bite your nails while you're playing with a dusk st So you don't think the motion idea is that good? Then oh it could be. It could be. It's just it's just it's just the

question is that enough? Is that? Do you need to do something else as well, just to just to take up the time when you might normally be picking at your nails. Okay, but that's the key. So you got to figure out when you're doing it and then just find I mean, could be great. I mean my feeling is anything that will that will get in the way of what you were doing, and that's a more benign behavior is a good thing. Okay, So this applies across

the border. Christ applies to trying to lose weight. I guess every time you want you you see something really juicy that you want to eat. Yeah, just you just you play with blocks instead. Well, so so let's let's take this in stage right. The first thing about losing weight is you don't want to define the problem in terms of losing weight for two reasons. One, because your your main focus might be wow, let me let me

eat less. You want to create a more positive behave You're meaning you want to ask yourself, is there a way of preparing lower you know, uh, foods that are that are better for you? You know, are you eating out so often? And if you eat out often and you can't avoid eating out, then you know, one of the great things you can do is to try and get restaurants to give you to you know, to to box stuff up in parts, you know, like like take a full portion, because portions of portion size the restaurants

are almost always too big. You're almost always going to eat too much in this country. In this country, Yeah, that's right, and so so why you know, ask get the restaurant to pack that into into you know, two containers. Now you've got. Now you've got dinner tonight and lunch tomorrow. Right, so you can save money and lose weight at the

same time. But you want to do it positively, right, You want to you want to think about this in terms of actions you're performing, because once you start eating, if you've got a jam on the brakes, right, you've got you've got a small amount of brain material in the frontal lobes of the brain, right, a couple ounces of brain material. Thanks you're saying I do personally, which

is true. Well, everyone does at best. We have a couple of ounss of brain material that's supposed that that's that's the last thing that's going to get in the way once our behavior starts down the track. Yes, right, and and and so you don't want to have to rely on that system. I call that the stop system that inhibits the behavior that you're trying to start. You don't want to be relying on that stop system, uh

too often. You could rather be trying to focus on getting the right behaviors to get engaged, rather than having to stop yourself all the time from doing the wrong thing. Well, that's a great, great way of conceptualizing it. You what, the automatic system to automatically not have the urge to do something? Why do I have the urge to pick my nails because I'm nervous? Uh, you know, it could be all kinds of things. At some point it was rewarding for you. You know, the chances are the reason

you do it now is because you've always done it. Yeah. I think at some point in the past it might have been nerves. It might have just been that it felt good. You know who knows right, But but it's you know, like most of these habits, at some point, you do them because you do them, and the system is wired to just keep you doing stuff as long as it's not killing you. How do you know? How do you know you've got a problem? How do you know you've got a habit? What? What? What counts as

a habit? Well, so you know you have a habit. I mean there's two questions there, one how do you know you have a habit? Then the other how do you know? How do you how do you know you have a problem? So most habits can be because most habits are great. I have a habit of hugging people. Is that good? It could be as long as you're out on the subway, you know, and they're total strangers. But you know, most of our habits are really good ones. Look, you know, you walk into your office, you flip the

light switch on. You don't have to think about where the light switch is. That's a habit. That's a darn good habit. Let's talk about where the light switch is. Yeah, you know, so you know you have a habit when when you're able to do the behavior without thinking about it. In fact, you might not even realize you've done it.

So you know, for me my old house, one of my habits, every time I came in from the garage into my house, I would pop the button to put the garage door down, and then my wife would say, did you put the garage door down? And I wouldn't remember, and I have to go back into the garage to check. I got so tired of checking because I could never remember whether and I invariably I had, in fact put the door down. I got so tired of checking up.

We had a window cut between the in the door between the house and the garage so that so that I could just look and and that, you know, because it's one of the signs of a habit is you just don't know you did it. But those habits are all good, you know, most of those habits are good. Then the question is how do you know you have a problem right and and there? It's a matter of what you know looking around at your life and acting.

Are there are there big picture goals? What what in the book I call contributions using the terms that the terminology that that Peter Drucker used, Those big picture things are if there are big picture things that you are systematically unable to achieve. That's when you have a problem. Okay, right, so you know, if if if you want to you know,

I mean, you don't have this problem. But imagine one of you know, one of your listeners wants to wants to write a book and can't seem to get it written, you know, and they really do want to do it, but they just can't they can't do it. Well, what's going on? Well, maybe they're checking their email too often, right, Maybe they're getting sidetracked onto lots of other things and

not clearing the time. So so you know, you have a problem because you have this goal, this thing you really want to do, write a book, and you're not able to do it. That's that's your warning sign. That's your canary and the coal mine. Okay, and now you've got to figure out. Okay, So now I've got this thing I really want to do. It's causing me a problem.

Now now this is something I have to change. And notice it's changed, it doesn't stop because because you're never you're never going to succeed if all you do is try to stop. You have to actually engage a new set of behaviors. Yeah, laid down a new automatic foundation, right. You know. You you wrote an interesting article on talent and how if we don't have early markers that were not necessarily out of the race, and you graciously cited my book, which I appreciated. My question, my question is

thank you. My question is, you know, with the writing the book thing, a lot of people might get to that stage where they're having trouble they really have the goal, and they might say it's because I suck, like I'm not talented writer. You. I mean, your book is so anti uh not anti, but it's just the emphasis is so much on what we can change, right, and you're arguing there's a lot more we can change that we're

probably aware of. Yeah, I would say so, And I would say that, you know, one of the there's this there's this whole stream of work that's come out recently that I really like on self compassion. Oh I love that work. Yeah, you know, And what I like about that work is, you know, what it really says is, you know, we are We're all going to fail at things.

Life is a series of two steps forward and one step back, or sometimes even two or three steps back, and in those moments when you do something and you fail. You have a goal, you know, you want to lose weight and you eat too much, or you know you've been you've been trying to write a book and you write a chapter and it's horrible. You know, those are the moments where, uh, you have to take a step back and say, all right, that was painful. You know,

because because anytime you failed something is painful. You don't you don't want to anyone who fails, even people who are incredibly successful. Most of the time you fail. It feels bad. Allow yourself to feel bad, and then say, okay, good now I failed, just like everybody else fails. What can I learn from this that I do better the

next time? Right? I mean Pete Heine, the the Dutch poet, had this, you know, has that great little He wrote these little poems that he called groups and and and he had one that he calls the road to wisdom and and it's the road to wisdom is to er and er and err again, but less less and less so great. And I love that, right because because that's

the way life works. Is even even the best writer you've ever seen has written a lot of garbage and and you know it, but but they but they learned from that, and they you know, and they had days where they couldn't get stuff written and then they and then they look back and say, well, what was going on that day that I couldn't that I couldn't do anything?

And they learned from each of these experiences. And to me, that's a that's one critical part of this is is that whenever you're trying to learn to do something, you have to you have to realize that that a tremendous amount of your ability to get something done involves learning how to do it. Now now that you know, we talk about talent and skill, you know, and and and there's a lot of debate. You know this because you've

written you've written your wonderful book and gifted. There's a lot of debate about the about the relative contributions of of your endowment, who you are, on your ability to exceeded things and effort and and and you know, I think the easiest gloss on all of this work and you know you can you can chime in on this because because I'm horning in on your territory here, But I think the easiest gloss on this is you can be better than almost anyone you know at almost anything

if you if you really work at it. Where talent comes in is generally speaking, at the margins. If your goal is to be the best in the world at something, right you you know, you want to be the best sprinter in the world, you know what, you better look like Hussein Bolt, no matter how hard you work, you better be six five and have springy legs. You know,

there's there. Talent matters when you're trying to be not just really good at it, probably better than anyone you know, but when your goal is to be absolutely the best in the world at it, and and frank there are very few situations in most people's lives in which the only way that they can succeed is to be the best in the world at something, as opposed to just

really really darn good at it. I hear you, And maybe not you know, for best, but at least maybe you can still get at a very very high level

right without talent. I mean, I I find it very interesting how I, personally, you know, didn't test very well in i Q tests as a kid, and that my accuscer is equivalent of having like being four foot five and having dreams of being in the NBA, and I dreams of going to Yale, which is the you know basically the NBA, right well, and you know, and I eventually need it to Yale with a with a with a four foot five height or you know, you know, I'm not for you know what I'm saying the analogy.

So I think that like that range is still still very very wide. Depends on somebody who went to Brown, I'd say, what's the big deal of going to Yale? Uh? But no, no, no no, I understand not You're You're absolutely right, your science major great. You know, there's a tremendous amount to be said for putting an effort on things and learning from your mistakes and pushing forward and not giving in to the temptation to say, you know, the reason I can't do this is because I'm just no good

at it. No, I think that's that's very sensible. There there are critics that you know, talent and intelligence researchers who would say, you know, you need to be realistic, you need to like assess what your probabilities are and don't waste your time. To me, I don't. I think you can be realistically optimistic. I don't. I don't really you know, this idea of be realistic. I mean I could have easily been told be realistic when I was younger,

don't don't aim your sights at Yale. But and I and I would have been, okay, I'll be realistic, and I won't, and then I wouldn't have done it. Yeah, but look what I would say is is and this is more philosophical than psychological. That's okay. But the fact is, you don't get any do overs in life. This is your this is your life. You get. You get one chance at it. If there's something you want to do, do it, and uh and and and do what you

can to do the best possible job at it. Because you know I and and and now we will get to the research, right. You look at Tom Gilovich's research on regret, and you know when you when people get to the end of their lives, they almost universally regret the things they didn't do that they wish they'd done. So, you know, don't put yourself in a situation where you're going to look back on your life as you reach the end and wish there was something you had done.

That's a really it's really great advice. Arden, And I think your book helps people change their habits that might be getting in the way of of of living that good life, you know, I hope. So look, I think all of us who are engaged in this kind of writing, you know what. I what I love about the the community of of of science psychology writers who are out there is that is that really there's a there's so much about the field that could help people to live

their lives in a better way. Uh if if they learned a little bit more about the way their minds work. And there's a lot of us out there who are really trying to help people to do that. And I think it's I think it's really important. Uh you know, it's it's a it's a great opportunity for people to really understand enough about themselves to be able to actually achieve the big picture things that they want to they want to accomplish. Absolutely. Let's talk a little bit about goals.

You you argue that goal setting is very very important. Could you unpack a little bit what goal setting is? Yeah? Yeah, So, so as I was saying, you know, when we were talking a little bit about about food and things like that, you know, the thing about our goals is that that we there are There are several aspects of our goals.

The first is we obviously want to create these positive goals like we talked about, because because those are actions we're performing, rather than setting our goals in a negative way, here's something I don't want to do. A second aspect of our goals that's really important is that we want to focus ourselves as much as possible on the process by which we live our lives rather than on the outcomes that we want to achieve. So a lot of times we tend to say things like I want to

lose ten pounds. And the problem with saying I want to lose ten pounds is you then engage in a set of behaviors whose desired outcome is that at the end of it you've lost ten pounds. But now what happens you lose those ten pounds, and now what right? You aren't in a situation in which you've created a sustainable set of behaviors for the long term. So rather than focusing yourself on I want to lose ten pounds, ask yourself, Okay, is there a way where I can say, Look,

I'm going to eat in a healthier way. I'm going to engage in a set of healthy eating habits, and as a side effect of that, I may end up losing some weight, But the main idea is I've created a set of procedures for living my life that will sustain themselves well beyond the particular outcome that I was hoping for. Oh I really like that. And you know, I've heard from people who eat very healthy that if you start eating healthy a lot, you end up really

enjoying it. You end up eating unhealthy food like you actually change your taste talent. Is that true? Yeah? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, look, you think about taste and stuff like that, it's all there as in part as a matter of prediction, right, And so if you change the foods you're eating, then your brain is predicting a different set of tastes. It's going to appreciate the tastes that are associated with the

foods that you get on a routine. So, I mean, look, we all know things are an acquired taste, and people are willing to acquire all kinds of tastes as long as they go along with advices, right, I mean, nobody likes nobody likes beer the first time that they drink it. I don't even like beer even today. Yeah, well there are there are lots of people out there who do. I actually am not a huge fan of beer, but I but but but you know, but but for me,

it might be you know, whiskey or vodka. But you know, nobody over there in moderation. I'm not sitting at bsketball. But but you know, nobody, nobody likes that stuff the first time that they drink it, and then they persist at it, and then over time they they acquire a taste for it. Well you know what, that works just

as well for stuff that's good for you. Yeah, so you know, so it's it's if you're willing to acquire a taste for your vices, then you got to be you got to be just as willing to acquire the taste for the virtues. What are what are smart goals? You say it's important to create smart goals. What it was a smart goal? Yeah, so, so the smart goals they got to be positive, they got to be focused on processes. And then the third thing about about your really smart goals is that they have to be things

that can actually make it onto your calendar, right. You know a lot of times we set goals that are way to abstract, Like, you know, I took up the saxophone, right, and I was I was in my mid thirties. And if I just said I want to learn to play the saxophone, then to this day I wouldn't be able to play the sacks, because what does that mean. I want to learn to play the saxophone means I don't know how to play it now and sometimes in the

future I will know how to play it. So you have to actually turn that into a set of actions you can perform. You know, I'm going to practice every day for a half hour after dinner. You know, I'm going to take lessons on Thursday mornings at eight o'clock. You know, things that you can that that that actually

could appear on your calendar at some point. And unless you get down to that level of specificity, then end up really being able to succeed, partly because you're not creating actions that you can actually perform, and partly because until you get down to that level of specificity, you don't really bump into all of the key obstacles that are holding you back. Because life is a series of trade offs there. There's time and resources and enjoyment factors

that come into play in your behavior. And until you start thinking up close and personal to the specific aspects of your day, it's really hard to see all those things that are getting in your way. So so another aspect of these smart goals is you have to get down to that level of specificity that you can really put this stuff on your calendar. Oh that's that's a really good point. Yeah, so you do, right. So it's

better to frame goals pausively rather than negatively. You also argue it's important to be flexible with your goal, Like if you're trying to lose one hundred pounds in two weeks, you'll realize that it's not possible. Yeah, little, little, little realism is a good thing. My goal when I took up the sacks was that I that in ten years I wouldn't suck. Oh that's that's great. That was my goals. And about ten years after I started, I started playing

in a blues band. Oh that's so well. Can you send me a link of you playing and I'll put into the show notes. Uh, I'll see if I'll see if I can find if I can find a there must somebody must have put something up on YouTube. I think they have, and if not, I did a I did a recorded lecture for Creative Live over the summer and I played I played the sacks on that and they and they I think they have that freely available

on their side. Oh yeah, great, And do we have a way of you playing day one so we can do it before and after thing? No? But you know the story is the first day that I was playing, I was so excited I got this saxophone. I had a lesson. My teacher taught me how to get a sound out of it. And I came home and I played and played and played at home. And the next morning, my son, who was like seven years old at the time, comes out of his bedroom and he says, were you

playing your new saxophone last night, Daddy? And I was so proud. I was like, yes, I was. He said, I thought, so it sounded like you were moving chairs in the kitchen. Did you laugh at that? You know? I did, but but not probably not as heartily as he would have liked. Yeah, exactly, Well, what can you now? That's right? So you what was something I'll say like about your book is you talk about importance of imagination and visualization. Could you elaborate on that a little bit

about why is imagination and visualization important for reaching your goals? Well, you know, if you think about it, you in order to achieve these goals, chances are you're going to have to do some number of things you've never done before, right, which which means that you have to really begin to think about how in the world am I going to make this happen in my life? What are the actions I need to take, What are the things that are

going to get in my way? You know, one of the things I about is that my least favorite book published in the last twenty years is Secret. You know, this idea that all you need to do is to think really positively about things. You don't like The Secret. I don't like The Secret. You know this idea that that positive that that that that that positive thinking is all you need to get to your goals. You know,

and as most scientists love The Secret. So I'm surprised. Yeah, I know, I know that shock a shock, but I I think it's done. I think the book's done a tremendous amount of damage because it's it's really forced. It's it's moved people away from really considering all the obstacles that get in your way when you're going to try

to achieve a goal. And I I tell people that that that they should really make use of that finely honed skill that all of us have to talk ourselves out of doing things, and to use that skill to identify the problems that are going to come up. But then rather than allowing those to demoralize you then use those to plan for what's going to go wrong in the future and to really be ready for it, because in the moment, it's it's really hard to figure out what is the right way from an obstacle in the

moment it happens. So the idea is that that you want to be ready for the problems are going to come up. So think about this, right you, You know, you go to a party, somebody insults you, and and and later you come up with the great comment that you should have said to them. It happens to be all the time. Yeah, I'm e sure the one insulting

the people. Now, So wouldn't it be great if if you could get the insult in advance, right, so that you know, you were all prepared with the comment and then and then you could make it right in the moment. And so that's that's the same value of preparing for the obstacles is in the moment, it's really hard to know what to do. But if I'm prepared in advance, then when those obstacles come up, I know exactly what I'm supposed to do and what what you know how

to how to overcome them. That's great. I mean, are sometimes I I don't I kind of speak my mind whatever whatever enters my mind, and sometimes I accidentally insult people and then much so much later I find out or I think about it, think it through and was like, oh wow, I probably shouldn't have said that. So does it work both ways? Well, you know it does in

a sense, right. I Mean one of the things that that that we often learn is is you know, things that didn't go well and so you know and so and so now you you begin to recognize that when you're when you're traveling into dangerous waters, you know the you know, socially, we call them social skills because they well we call them social skills because they have to be learned. Yeah, that's that's that's that's a very good point. I will work on my social skills. Yeah, I've never

had a problem with you. No, No, I I just uh, social skills sometimes requires just inhibiting your prefontal cortex a little bit. Uh. Yeah, well no, I'm actually engaging the prefrontal that's problem done it, I do there was a problem there. I mean sometimes it requires engaging the pre fonted cortex. That's right. Behavior and behavior. Uh, some of what you're talking about sounds consistent with rational mode of behavioral therapy. You know. Are you familiar with that? Yeah? Yeah,

and you know bridelis. Yeah, look, I think, uh, I think a lot of it, A lot of it is very consistent with that. You know. It's I mean, you you know a lot of a lot of what what cognitive cognitavior therapies are trying to do is to help people to develop a more effective set of habits and and what you know what one of the important insights that comes out of a lot of that work is the recognition that some of those habits aren't aren't overt actions,

they're just thought patterns. That's right. We create, we create habitual modes of thought. You know this whole concept for example, of rumination, which is just a word I love, right because it comes from the word for chewing your cut. Right. But this whole idea that you can get into these thought patterns where you just think over and over about the mistakes you've made and and the things that you're anxious about that can then end up derailing your your

ability to move forward in a positive way. I mean, those are also habits, and you can't stop doing those again. You don't want to set a negative goal. You want to find something that interferes with that. You want to find a new thought pattern that will that you will gauge in those situations instead of the thing you don't want to do. Yeah, we were talking earlier about you were helping me with my picking my nails and you suggest I start a smart change journal. Yeah. Yeah, so

you're you're a big fan of of data collection. Yeah. Tim Ferriss once said that that which gets measured gets managed. You would agree with that. Yeah. Absolutely. I think it's very hard to change behavior if you have no idea what you're doing. And that's that's why most New Year's resolutions fail, because people just say, you know what next year I'm gonna get in shape without ever thinking about why you're not in shape. Now. Yeah, so you need a compass, Yeah, you need to. You need to have

that that compass in the automatic system. Yes, yeah, yeah, and and and so you need to you need to know what you're doing. You need to create you know, those good goals. You need to have those, you know, the plans in place with with those specific actions. You want to be prepared aired for the obstacles when they come in. And then one thing we haven't talked about that's really important, right is you also want to manage

that environment a little bit. You know. I always say that one of the key principles that changing your behavior is just making really desirable behaviors easy and undesirable behavior is hard. So I really should buy an entire gym and put it in my room, my office if you could, that would certainly work. But you know, there are smaller things you can do, like, you know, when I lost weight, one of my one of my my biggest nemesis was the single serving cart and the Ben and Jerry's ice cream.

You know, those are like a pink, you know, and you take them out of the freezer with a spoon and you sit down and you eat it, and you get down to about halfway, and then you take one more spoonful past halfway and then it's just impolite. I'm going to need some right now. Yeah, right, yeah, now that you've activated that schema, thanks So I when I lost weight, I made a remarkable discovery and I'm going to share it with you for free. Thanks our cool discovery.

You can't eat an ice cream that isn't in your freezer. Oh wow, okay, yeah, you got You got to play with your environment. You gotta. You got to make sure that you make you make the most you know, you want to make. Really undesirable behavior is hard to do. So so you know, there you are too at eleven o'clock at night. You are not going to run out and grab a uh go go down to the store to get ice cream. You know, if you'll you'll find something else to do. Yeah, this is this is such

important practical advice. Yeah, what are you know, what are some of the things that people want to do other than than stop not stop losing weight, losing weight and stop picking their nails. Well, there's there's lots of different kinds of things that people you know may want to do right, so, uh, you know, the range of goals is probably limitless. I think one of the other big ones these days is to check is to stop check an email, and and smartphones on the yes, that's a

that's another really big one. But let's let's do an example, though, of of of how to list these signs. So you say you define objectively so you don't wiggle out, Oh yeah, make it easily measurable, and keep signs for small achievements as well as long term contribution. Maybe we can pick something and give an example of how we could of what the form those three things take for that. Okay, so, so which three things do you want? I just want to make sure I got this right here. I thought

we'd go through all three. So let's start with defining something objectively. So who don't wiggle out? Yeah? Yeah, So so let's let's think about check an email. Okay. So, so a lot of people that check their email way too often. And and if I just say, look, I'm gonna check my email less often, that's that's not specific enough, right, How do I you know, how am I going to really say I checked it less often? So what you really want to do is to say to yourself, Okay, look,

I'm going to institute a new behavior. I'm really productive first thing in the morning, So I'm not going to check my email for the first time until until after ten o'clock in the morning, so that all of the work time that I have before ten am is going to be spent on things other than email. Well, now I've defined something specifically enough that there's no there's no way to wiggle out of that, because if I check my email before ten I've blown it. Okay, right, Yes,

So that's one thing that we want to do. You know. Now, Now imagine that you're trying to check your email and service or stop checking your email so often in service of doing something like making progress on a book. Right, So now you know one of the things you want to do is actually to keep track of the pages that you've written, to have some specific set of information in the world that will tell you, yes, I am

making progress on this. You know. Now, with something like a book, there is an object at the end of this that is there there are words on a page, at least on a virtual page in a computer, so you have something to show for it. Unfortunately, for some number of the goals that people create for themselves, there aren't necessarily there don't necessarily have to be products for those. You know, when somebody says I want to get in shape, well you know what exactly is the is the product

of that going to be? And so you want to give yourself something a little bit more measurable than that, Like, well, you know, right now I can only run a quarter of a mile. I would like to keep track of how far I can run or how long I can walk and use that as a measure of the progress that I'm making. Your work is so system with Gabrielle Engine's work on implementation intentions. Absolutely. In fact, if you flip all the way to the end of I know, I set you up. You know her work and Peter

and Peter Gold which just work. I love that stuff. Yeah, I love Gabrielle's new book. Oh you're gonna buy only one book this year, buy smart Change. But if you're gonna buy two books this year, well last year, if you were going to buy two books last year. If you're gonna buy one book this year, buy my book on creativity. Fair enough. But I'm gonna buy three books this year, I'm saying, I'm saying, make sure you buy arts book and Gabrielle's book last year, right, but I'm

saying I'm saying this year, buy my book. Okay, fair enough, are used to buy my book? So what were you going to say about if you flip all the way to something? Uh? With gabriell Engine's thing, we're gonna say, if you flip all the way to the end is smart change where the references are, you'll actually Gabrielle's stuff and uh and Peter and Peter Bolwitzer's were excited prominently absolutely, So let's let's go. Let's talk a little bit about

the importance of influencing other people. Yeah, okay, why does that matter? Why is that? Well, I mean, most of us, every once in a while find ourselves in the position of having not just to do things ourselves, but trying to influence what other people do. Some people are in the business of doing that all the time. Some people are just in that situation every once in a while.

If if you really think about what influence is all about, influence is actually about affecting people's behavior, which means that all of the principles of smart change are are not only principles you can use to change your own behavior, but they are principles that you can engage to help

other people to change their baby. That there's a pro social element to this and so and so, you know, and I think this is important because a lot of people who are engaged in real pro social kinds of behaviors, they're often looking for the right message, you know, they if I hear this all the time, what could we tell people in order to get them to save energy, or to treat people better, or to stop racism or

whatever it is. And I think what's important to remember is it's not about the message, because ask yourself, when was the last time that anyone said something to you? And just saying that fundamentally changed your behavior. Right, generally speaking, it requires more than just telling you something, giving you a piece of information. It requires all of those other

elements of behavior change. And the example I love to use for this is, you know, if you take if you take our Judeo Christian heritage and you look at our top ten list, which is the commandments. Yeah, right, ten commandments are all about behavior change. Excise A couple of them that say follow this religion rather than that one. All the rest of them are about do the thing that's right in the long term rather than the thing that's right in the short term. Yes, right, that beautiful

thing somebody owns, don't steal it. That person who just annoys you, don't kill him, that really attractive spouse to the person living next door, leave him or her alone. Now, remember, according to the Bible, the ten commandments were handed down by the deity. Right, God gave the ten commandments, and they are an utter failure because despite that, everyone still does these things. Speak for yourself, art Mark Man, Well, okay,

people do these things. So what does this mean. It means if God can't tell you don't do this, yes and write and have it work. What makes you think that you can come along and say to somebody, here's what you should do or not do, and that's going to have any impact. Right, that's a good point. There you go. So it's not about telling people. It's not

about having the right message. It's about, you know, giving people the right kinds of goals, helping them to create plans that will fit those goals into their lives, being aware of the obstacles, the temptations, managing that environment and being an example as well, right. I mean, the other that's really important is that you know, you know, our

goals are contagious, right. You see somebody doing something makes you want to do the same thing, and so you know, being that example of the kind of behavior you want to see in other people is an incredibly powerful way of affecting other people do And you also mentioned the parts of taking advantage of the laziness, yeah, of other people, of reducing the path of least resistance for them. That's right,

that's right. I tell companies all the time. Companies say to me, what can we do to improve illness of our employees? I'll say, one of the things you should do is to get the building manager to slow the elevator down right, so that you know, if the elevator is just a little bit slower so it's kind of a pain to wait for it, Yeah, then people will

walk a floor too. Oh that's great, Yeah, so I want to I mean that transitions nicely into really the last question I have for you today, and what do you think is the biggest impediment to the every day to everyone to decide who wants to make a change

in their life? You know, I think I think the biggest impediment most people have is that they just don't know the way that the motivational system works, and so they end up engaging in lots of behaviors that probably won't work to begin with, and then they get frustrated that they failed at changing their behavior and they just give up. You know. I mean, how many people do you know who decided not to make New Year's Residents this year because they've failed so often in the past.

Why bother? Oh, I just don't know anyone like that. I can't think of anyone. Well, I know a couple, and you know, it's so so I think that that, you know, people get, people get frustrated, they get they get demoralized by uh by their failures in the past, and those failures are not their fault because they were walking,

they were working across purposes to their own brains. So so I really feel like if you, if you learn a little bit about the way behavior works, you put yourself in a situation in which you can be much more effective at changing your behavior in the long term and and and then actually succeed. I want to put everybody in a position where next year they get to make a different New Year's resolution because they've actually achieved

this one. Thanks Sara, you really inspired me to it's not too late right in the New Year, to never too late to stop pick my nails and lose a couple of pounds. Thank you so much, Art, and I'm sure you inspired lots of our listeners. Thank you, Sarah, it's great great to talk to you. Thanks for listening to The Psychology Podcast with Doctor Scott Barry Kaufman. I hope you found this episode just as performative and foperak

if I did. If you don't read the show notes for this episode or her past episodes, if you go to the Psychology Podcast dot com,