In each episode, we’ll be talking to industry Welcome back to another episode of the Pro Source podcast. Today we are talking all about the finishing touches of kitchen design. We also have some very special guests that will be able to talk about all aspects of finishing a kitchen remodel. First up, we have Prosource Trade Pro member Walter Miller. He is the owner of O'Bannon construction and he does a lot of home remodeling work down in Florida.
We will also have on Matt Nicola from Top Knobs to chat all about kitchen hardware. And then Greg Payne from Engineered Floors. he chats all about flooring in the kitchen. So let's go ahead and dive in first, starting with our trade pro member Walter. Hi, I’m Kevin Devine, and this is the ProSource Podcast. Walter, how are you doing today? I'm doing well. And you? I'm doing great. Thank you. if you don't mind just starting off telling us a little bit about O'Bannon.
what you do and your role within the business. so I'm that. I'm actually the owner. I, I actually have two, two businesses, one one here in Florida. And I also have a business in Pennsylvania. we do roofing windows, siding and also remodeling. Not as much now that I'm down here in Florida, up north. we've been in business for roughly 32 years, I think since 1992. okay. It's a family owned business. I'm the last of the family.
Except for the little bit of family that's running the business up north. I came to Florida about four and a half, five years ago. and started remodeling mainly kitchens and bathrooms here in Florida. What made you want to move to Florida? My father in law. I actually moved my father in law here during Covid. And, up north, it was a little slow.
So I did a little few things down here and and actually, if Florida, Florida allows you, if you're been in business longer than ten years, Florida allows you to start a business here without all the crazy paperwork that you normally have to do to start a business. So I figured I'd give it a shot and do it. You know, occasionally. But it it's blown up. I mean, it's, so busy. It's crazy, which is good. I'm not complaining. Just explaining. It's it's been good. Good to hear.
So today's episode is all about the finishing touches of kitchen design. I know you work with homeowners a lot, and I'm sure they come to you. They have either they have a huge vision for what they want or sometimes maybe they rely on your expertise. Yes, to help drive them on what direction they want to go, to say they do have this big vision. And if you're seeing some roadblocks or potential obstacles, or how do you balance maybe your ideas with their vision when you're working on the project?
I always start off by listening to what they have to say and what they want, and normally, you know, depending on always their pocketbooks. you know, their visions are always bigger than their pocketbooks. so I try and balance that with their visions and what we can do.
So I listen to what they have to say, what they're looking for, and then I take a look around and walk them through some things and, you know, some things that we could possibly change, move around because they're kind of fixated on what's there and the design that's there. So it's hard for them, for some of them to see what we can actually do. and that's good with 3D design where we can actually move things around, we can show them different designs. so I kind of take in what they want.
Give them a little feedback on what we could do and try an upgrade because, a lot of folks that I deal with are older and they're a little tough to change. so once you start showing them things and you start showing them in, especially a 3D, configuration, they kind of like it. And you can kind of move them a little bit. And there's they're kind of they get unstuck on what they have now. And yeah, they're open to some change.
Well yeah, I'm sure them seeing the 3D all the new technology that's coming out. Yes. People probably are blown away. Yeah it's great especially you can open doors and open doors and they love them. Yep. So with homeowners there may be elements to an existing kitchen they wish to keep. but may interfere with the new kitchen vision, that they're wanting besides just showing them, you know, the new technologies, the 3D renderings.
how else have you navigated some of those issues, or do you have any specific stories that you could share with how you came to a closure with a specific decision of a design? So, yeah, it's funny because just last week I had I have a client, just last week we were walking through a design and they were fixated on this wall that was there and the refrigerator that was actually in a door in a walkway. they just had it stuck in their head that this refrigerator had to stay there.
And I didn't really know why at the time. I figured I figured out that it was because of the water line and of course, water lines are. It's like electricity. We'll pull it out, we'll move it to the other side of the room, will take the wall out. And it was a, it was a I think it was about a 31 inch wall and it was a non bearing wall. And I listened to them listen to them and I said but we can move, we can move this, I can put your refrigerator over here.
We can do a nice building with pantry's around it and they just kept saying, no, I don't think we can do that. I don't think we can do that. So finally I just said, why? Why don't you think we can do that? And that's when it came out. Well the electric it's going to be too much to run the water. And I said, forget about all that. I said, we're not talking about a huge amount of money to reroute water, a water line, because all their water is in the ceiling.
I said, we're not talking about a huge amount of money. Like, forget about the cost of the water. Forget about the cost of the electric. Let's talk about design first and then we'll go. Then we'll worry about the water. We'll worry about the electric. Let's get this thing designed the way it's it's going to function. Good. We'll take out that little piece of wall because it's not doing anything there.
We can extend your kitchen a little bit into the dining room and imagine what this place is going to look like. Opened up. then their eyes lit up and then they're like, okay, that sounds really good. So that's kind of how I navigate that. I feel like it's good. communication is key, right? Yes. You having the expertise and even just having the confidence because if you didn't have the confidence, they'd be like, oh, does this guy know what he's talking about? but obviously you do.
And so that really helped change their minds on that. Yes. And I hear from so many clients before, they're actually my clients when I go in to see them, and they've had other people in ahead of me how the contractors just don't talk to them. They don't give them any ideas. They hear what they want. They say, okay, then write it down on paper and they leave. I'll get an estimate like nobody wants to give any feedback.
I've been doing that stuff forever, giving clients listening to them is really important, but giving them what they don't think they want is really important too, because yeah, and I want them to come in and say, wow, I'm glad that I spent all this money and did all of this work. It wasn't just for a new, updated kitchen, it functions better. I used to work with a lot of, older people up north. I had a, I used to work with a lot of disabled. so everything was about function.
So even down here, like, folks are getting older, we want them to be able to stay in their home and, and grow old in their home. So functionality is a big thing, wasn't it? we want that's also kitchen to function for them for the rest of their life so they don't have to worry about, getting old. I'm going to have to move out because I can't get a wheelchair through. Take out a wall, move it. Refrigerator, move it. It's it's all it's water lines and electric. That's it's not a big deal.
Functionality is definitely most important for sure. Absolutely. Speaking of functionality, when people are thinking about kitchen flooring, what are some recommendations that you automatically think of when discussing with clients what kind of kitchen flooring they should be looking at? So it really depends on what what they have in the rest of the house.
if they're trying to match what they have in the rest of the house, if they have ceramic tile in the rest of the house, if we can split it and again, it goes back to functionality. I try to not have, tripping hazards ever. So if their kitchen is connected to the rest of the house, but they just want to change the kitchen. and they have tile in the rest of the house, but they don't want to tear up the tile that's in the house.
So of course, or the and they don't want to tear up the tile in the kitchen because they don't want a mess. Of course, we take every precaution on wrapping people's homes up so that they don't get dust in the rest of their house, but still, people have this thing about, oh, great, my house is going to be full of dirt, dust. yeah. It's sometimes you can't change that. Vinyl flooring is, you know, LVP is the best I try and push them for, especially for kitchens. It's soft on the feet.
If you drop something on the floor, it's not going to break. It's not going to shatter. it's just a good all around floor. and I tell them, depending on how we run it, if you then decide to do the rest of the house, we can connect and we can do the rest of the house, and it's all going to look cohesive to the rest of the house. So moving into cabinet hardware, kind of a thing that people overlook.
They get the whole kitchen done, and then maybe they're looking at their cabinet hardware like a week later and things just don't seem as right for them. They didn't even think about, you know, the pools and the knobs on the cabinets. It's not always top of mind. why do you think cabinet hardware is an important topic for a kitchen? That's often overlooked?
Well, and it's funny you say that because there's there's been occasions where I, I'm so fixated on Kat's design that I'll have to say, oh, wait, I have to go back and do cabinet hardware. I do it myself. Yeah. But then there's people that are so fixated on these big giant handles. And you, I'm like, snow. So it's like it's too much. You're going to be you're taking away from your whole kit kitchen. Yeah. With this huge like okay I know what you like. Let's size it down a little bit.
Like your jaw. Your jaw is only 12in wide and you want a 14 inch handle on the jaw. It's like it doesn't make sense. So, yeah, depending on the cabinet, I mean, if shaker shaker style cabinets are huge right now, I mean, that seems to be probably 90% of what I'm putting in right now or shaker cabinets in my eyes. Simple looks best on shaker cabinets. Some people are going with stuff that's a little fancier. Then you get into something a little fancier.
But hardware definitely finishes out the the cabinets and you don't want to overwhelm it with crazy oversize hardware. And I try to match. So if you have an appliance that has a simple, simple handle, you can. You can match all that stuff. So I have one client that she didn't want to see any hardware, so she had us put those metal tops where you just pull and she loves it.
I had another client that wanted square knobs that hated them because they hurt her fingers, so we had to change them of Ram. So it's like they want what they want until they get it, and then it's like, well, maybe so it's hard. I cabinet hardware is one of the hardest things to deal with. It's so different for everyone. Yeah. Before and sometimes even after after they're installed. Gotcha. So I like when cabinet hardware comes in multiple sizes so that we can do.
I have no problem doing the same hardware in multiple handles in multiple multiple knobs here. Handles here, smaller handles here. So it's all the same. It all looks the same but it's not all big handles everywhere. And yeah so it all looks good in the end. And it all matches perfect. Yeah. You actually just answered another one of my questions. I was wondering if you thought it would be better for cabinet hardware to stand out or blend in.
It seems like you're more of a fan of blending in and not being such a statement, right? Right. Not having such a Bam type of effect. Yeah, and that again depends on if you have a if you have a cabinet that is just so fancy. yeah. Depending on the colors. And I don't run across that a whole lot here in Florida anyway. but then you want something that's going to stand out then. Yeah, some people wanted to, some people wanted to stand out.
So you just you don't want it to blend in with the cabinets so you can get a little bit of pop with the hardware, depending on what it is, hinges. People don't really want to see hinges anymore. It's really hit the hinges. It's the big thing right now. I'm sure that's going to change again at some point, and people are going to want to see hinges again. But it's a trend. Yeah. Luckily. Would you say that cabinet hardware is very easy to interchange?
I've seen a lot of people DIY different, cabinet hardware options if they just want to like, touch up their kitchen, but maybe they don't want like an installer or contractor to come in. They'll just kind of go on Pinterest and look up different ways they can change out their hardware from a DIY perspective, are you seeing people do that a lot? Yes. Are you talking about hinges or are you talking about, like pools, just knobs, like little things like that.
As long as you have the center, as long as you have it definitely pulls single hold pulls or you can change out. And handles are easy to change out as long as you have the center hole measurements. they come in standard sizes. So as long as you have that measurement you measure from the whole center to center, it's really easy to order handles and change them out yourself. It's not hard for a Phillips head screwdriver. And you're you're good to go.
Yeah, maybe a YouTube video if you really need help, right? Yes. Absolutely. Yes. How can homeowners best compliment their flooring choices when they're selecting cabinet hardware? Are you seeing people maybe match their flooring to their hardware? I don't see a whole lot of people worry about matching hardware to flooring.
I'm seeing I'm seeing a lot of people are trying to bring in a lot of light flooring down here, and I'm trying to talk them out of the yeah, I just and it's funny because the same customer with the same client with the, with the refrigerator, they had these white this white Florida they wanted and they wanted white cabinets, white floor. And then they were going to pick a darker counter and I'm like, please go to a darker, go to a darker floor and.
My thing is, is with hardware like look around at the bigger, bigger picture if you have your appliances are the biggest thing in your kitchen. So if your appliances are stainless steel, then you don't want to put black hardware or gold hardware. So if everything around you is stainless steel, then maybe you want to go with a brush nickel, something that's going to go with that.
And then if you do that flooring it is tough with floor to try and match hardware to flooring because my thing is like I want the whole house to kind of tie together. I don't want the kitchen to be such a stand out away from the rest of the house. So I try and match it so that later on, hopefully they're going to do the rest of the house. If they're if they're just doing the kitchen, hopefully they're going to do the rest of the house and we can tie in the rest of the house.
That's my thought, always is later on doing some more work in the house. So the biggest thing is like, let's make everything so that it's cohesive with the rest of the house so that later on, again, if we do the bathrooms, we're going to be able to tie in the hardware from the kitchen into the bathrooms with the floors into the rest of the house, into the bedrooms, into the bathroom. So I don't really see a lot of people worrying about trying to tie in the hardware to the floors.
it's more the hardware with the my thing is the appliances, the lighting fixtures, that kind of stuff. Yeah, I've never, you know, even myself, I've never thought about, I guess, just all the appliances and how at the end you want those to go with the rest of the kitchen too, right. So I could definitely see how homeowners would overlook that. Right. because I didn't even think about that.
Yeah. If you have all stainless steel, appliances and you have something that does not go with that, it's going to look a little funky. And if you think about don't think of that right now. If you think about it, that's the most metal in your kitchen or your life. Yep. Yeah. and you don't want to ignore that. I mean, some people, some people are still buying white appliances, which yeah, there's one I just want to get cuz I, I hate white appliances.
But yeah, some people still want the, just be like childhood nostalgia. It's white appliances. The white fridge. Well, yeah. Well, I'm a little older than you. I'm sure, but I'm thinking back of the oh, wait, from the bring back the lime green and, whatever. Or avocado green they used to call it. Yeah. Yes. That would actually be kind of cool. I think I would like that for a day or so. And then I think, oh, maybe this wasn't a good decision. Exactly, exactly.
How do you think designers can help their clients best when choosing have cabinet hardware in the kitchen? Are there any other? We've talked a lot about cabinet hardware. You've given a lot of good recommendations on what people should do. is there anything I guess we haven't touched base on that maybe homeowners should think about, or a designer should think about when they're giving recommendations.
So I always so my thought is always whenever especially hardware, I try and find out what they like, what the homeowner likes. And I bring them a few choices. So I always think my thought is the less choices, the better, because the more choices you give them, the harder it's going to be. Yes. yeah. Just like bring you bringing them into the showroom. I bring them into the showroom and they get their eyes opened, her mouth dropped, their jaw drops, and it's like, oh my gosh.
And then I forget I'm in for the long haul because it's going to be a long day and it's going to be many trips back, you know? So I always try and find out, okay, what do they like? And then okay, let's pick some samples and then let me bring it to you. Don't keep coming back to the showroom. Let me bring them to you. And then I have a small group of samplings. And then here's 3 or 4. What do you like out of these? And okay, you like this, but you don't like this style.
Let me bring you 3 or 4 more. Because when you overwhelm them with a whole rack of hardware. Yeah, that's when you're going to run into trouble. In my eyes, less is more. The displays we have in the showroom, it's like, absolutely. Yep. A whole bunch of them. So like I said, when I first went, I was like, oh, that's a lot. Yeah. And they and they stay in there and they just spin them and they just spin them and spin around. They're looking and looking and looking.
And I was just like, this is going to take forever. It's going to be forever. So yeah. But yeah. So I always trying okay. You like that. You like that. Okay. I'll bring them to you. Let's let's move on to let's go get tile or let's go get cabinets or let's, let's take a couple samples. I'll bring everything to your house and then we'll go over everything. Let's get the design out of the way and that's that. Yeah, that that's a great idea. Yeah. That always seems to go the best.
Well, thank you so much for your time today, Walter. We appreciate you taking some time out of your busy schedule. I know you're probably super busy with everything down in Florida. You have a great rest of your day. Thank you, thank you. Bye bye. Thanks. Hi, I’m Kevin Devine, and this is the ProSource Podcast. about a variety of topics within home and commercial projects. Enjoy! We're going to switch things over to Matt Vecchio from Top Knobs. thank you, Matt, for joining the podcast today.
If you don't mind just introducing yourself and what you do for top knobs and a little bit of background on what top knobs is, that would be great. Well thank you Molly, I'm thrilled to be here today. I love the pro source, franchises. I love doing business with you guys. And will be invited. about me, I've worked at Top Knobs 17.5 years on senior director of national sales.
spend the majority of my time out on the road traveling with sales reps, visiting customers, especially pro sports franchises around the country. And, you know, doing everything I can to grow the top most business, around the U.S. accounts. So that's what I do. And I'm perfect. I am based, in Branchburg, new Jersey, which is where the top notch home offices. And that's where that's where I'm sitting right now is at Tottenham's HQ here in Branchburg, new Jersey. Awesome.
well, today's episode is all about the finishing touches of kitchen design, and I think it's perfect for top knobs. Why? A lot of people, when they think about the finishing touches, they think of, you know, the door handles and just cabinet handles, hardware, things like that. When homeowners are remodeling their kitchen, and they turn their attention to cabinet hardware, what are they typically considering? Have you noticed?
So when they're remodeling their kitchen, a lot of times people fall in love with like a centerpiece part of their kitchen, whether it be the faucets, the a lighting fixture, or something on the appliance or even something within the cabinets that they want to match. So usually they take inspiration from a centerpiece within the kitchen that they want to kind of model their cabinet hardware ever.
So whether that be a textured faucet or, you know, gold light fixture or anything like that, that seems to be where the, designs that they select with on top, not for driven focus from plumbing, lighting, hardware, appliances. Do you ever see anyone just throwing in very random styles of cabinet hardware that doesn't necessarily go with anything else in the kitchen? Not really. I mean, people are pretty by the book when it comes to cabinet.
You know, it's not something people want to take a risk on. it's. Yeah, usually something that just kind of, you know, the big investment is the cabinets. You don't want put something crazy on your cabinets. That's going to make take away from the beauty of your kitchen cabinets. You know, the cabinet hardware. We kind of equate it to putting really nice rims on a car or something like that, you know, just kind of want to blend it in and make it look nice and not stand up.
So to something to be the jewelry of the cabinet, that's a good way of saying it. Yes. what do you think drives the popularity of a specific type of cabinet hardware? So really kind of trends in the industry, whether it's, you know, we're seeing a lot of textures and knurling designs and faucets and lights, fixtures, which is what's inspiring our new collections. you know, driven by the trends and prominent lighting, I think is what, you know, drives the popularity of, of our hardware.
So, again, kind of piggybacks off the first question you asked me. Yeah. You know, same kind of thing. Do you find that those trends impact what like how it's manufactured or does it have a big impact on the manufacturing of cabinet hardware at all? Yeah, absolutely. So every year we come out with new designs. So that's one thing about top knobs is every single year we come out with about 5 or 6 new looks. Usually we, you know, cater those based on what's going on in the industry.
And we get a lot of feedback from our customers, designers, work and trade shows and things like that. And, you know, people kind of hip us to the trend that even just maybe in the eyes and ears for the company out in the field and our local sales team and our customers, they, you know, let us know what's trending, what's popular. And you need hardware to match X or you need a finished that looks like this and things like that.
So, you know, we are we have our ears to the ground, and we're always trying to stay current with what's going on in the kitchen of both industry and what's trending. And that's what we drive our new designs off of for sure right now. What metals and colors are you seeing seeing that stand out above all the others? Which ones are super popular right now?
So right now, we have a French called Honey bronze, which is a gold tone that is far and away our number one French top names has been in business over 30 years. so brush that nickel's always been our number one finish. Last year, honey bronze surpassed that nickel. and it was actually my third most popular finish. Now matte black also grouped into the top three as well. So black and gold are what's trending right now.
So all the finishes we were just talking about seeing if people go kind of crazy with what kind of cabinet hardware they have, if it matches the rest of their kitchen or not. Most people, when they're looking at their kitchen, they just want to simply change out the hardware. It's an easy switch out. I know my mom. She's obsessed with just changing out little things like that. It's super easy. What feedback have you heard from homeowners that are looking to make that kind of adjustment?
So one thing that's a little bit tricky is you always have to match up the existing center to center. So if you already have cabinet hardware screwed in, sometimes it's, you know, three inches and the piece you want from whatever Cabinet Harbor supplier might be three, three quarter inches. So it might not fit. So I referenced a collection called the Garrison Collection, which we just launched, the top notch. And what we launched with that was universal back plates.
So you can put it back plate over your existing center to centers. And you know, if you have a three inch center at the center and you wanted to add even a larger piece like a five and one sixteenths cover up, the existing screw holes had a longer length. And where we go. So, that's one way to do it. But even just someone who, you know, you're you're renting a house, you just want to have maybe some old, I don't know, ceramic knobs from 30 years ago on there.
And they just want to swap out and put some, you know, nice upgraded, gold hardware on their cabinets. Just, really upgrades the entire look of the entire kitchen. So, it's just it's an easy, inexpensive add just to upgrade the look of what you have. Yep. I agree, and anyone can do it. You don't have to be a a trade pro or really know how to work any specific tools besides, like a screwdriver. Most of the time it's probably the SDI project you can do. So yes, exactly.
What kinds of stories or experiences do you hear from trade pros? that will help shape the future of Top Knobs products. Do you take any of their feedback and move forward with it? Always? I mean, people can tell us about, you know, we we've launched some some tables which you install and they kind of fade away into the cabinets and some they were just saying, look, we just want a, clear and concise way. Just so people can, you know, they don't want to have the cabinet ever so much in your face.
So we launched some temples a few years ago, which is great, but really, all of our trends and all of our designs and everything that we do comes from the trade process. I mean, that's that's the feedback we get. We want to do what makes their life easier. We want to do when they're doing installs, when they're doing whatever trends, they're doing anything like that. You know, we want to make their lives easier. You know, everything we do is driven by feedback from the field.
So obviously today's main focus is about the kitchen. But cabinet hardware is place throughout the house. is there a place in the home that maybe unexpectedly rising in popularity that you're seeing? I'd say laundry rooms, mud rooms, and you oftentimes you see these boot benches that people that a lot of the cabinet manufacturers are doing as well. you know, we have cabinet hardware. We also have decorative hooks as well, which people are using within pop ups.
A lot of people are doing that in mud rooms and places like that. And then, believe it or not, you know, with obviously Covid shifting a lot of people to remote work and working from home, oftentimes people are putting cabinet hardware on their, you know, office furniture and things like that, which we've never had before. So, yeah, people are spending more time in their home offices. They want a really nice piece of furniture in their office. And oftentimes you put no hardware on there as well.
So probably a lot of outdoor living type of situations too. I know that's been a couple of years. Yeah. We have some stainless steel hardware that, that we, that we use all the time that outdoor cabinet manufacturers use. And people do an outdoor kitchens use. obviously bathrooms is a huge place as well outside the kitchen to so, you know, even just on a vanity piece for a couple of knobs on there to dress it up as well. So that's another DIY project for people to swap out for Roman.
and so, yeah, lots of places outside the kitchen, they use top notes. How often do you find kitchen designs where homeowners choose to have more matching cabinet hardware, as opposed to, cabinet hardware that stands out? You talked you talked about it a little bit already, but you're seeing most people are just playing by the book. Maybe there's a few odd jobs out there that want to go crazy. And I mean, it's super easy. You can always switch it out. If it doesn't work right.
You can always put it out. But you know, we we don't see people taking too big of risks. Yeah. And Top Knobs is, you know, a pretty mainstream line. You know, of course we have some pretty designer driven looks, but most of our stuff is pretty mainstream, pretty transitional, doesn't fall too contemporary or too traditional. We're right in the middle and people are just looking for something that blends into the cabinets and not stand out too much. You know?
Maybe they'll take a risk on a gold finish, when maybe they would have gone with a brush that nickel a couple years ago. Yeah, that's kind of where we see people taking risks is on a, you know, a trending finish with gold or black, which might stand out a little bit more. Whereas, you know, ten years ago everything was past that nickel and maybe a traditional oil or a bronze look. But that's where people are taking that risk is when the finished, not so much the design. Gotcha. That makes sense.
I'm sure durability plays a factor in choosing the right kind of cabinet hardware, the right brand. How does top knobs help themselves stand out in that regard? And maybe even talking to about outside, where you definitely want to have something that can with hold the elements of being outdoors, but even inside as well. Hey, look, at the end of the day, it's pretty simple.
Yeah, we have a lifetime warranty, so any issues that you have, we stand behind our product and something that effect the finished flakes off. Something breaks. we have a no questions asked lifetime warranty. So we stand behind our product. That's great to hear. As simple as that. Yep. Exactly. We talked a little bit about trends desktop knobs as far as going out in the field.
Do we also do you guys also look at I guess a lot of people bring up Pinterest and looking from like a DIY standpoint, do you ever touch base on just like the online community of DIY or. Yeah, we have a whole design community within top notch. We have a whole designer blog that we have, you know, we actually have a whole product within our product management team. We have a design team, in-house designers and things like that.
So they actually just returned from the Saloni conference in Milan, Italy, a couple weeks ago. just to see what the trends are in Europe right now. So, yeah, I mean, we have our ears to the streets, whether it's on the social media outlets, Pinterest, you know, traveling to international trade shows. we actually we just at a trade show in New York City, the ICF conference, yesterday and, yeah, we're we're all over the place.
We got our ears to the streets on everything trending in the entire industry. So, our in-house design team was for each. so what's next for Cabinet Hardware? What do you see happening? Maybe in the next year or two with trends? Do you see it staying the same? Do you see anything going a certain direction? Well, I think we're going to continue to see texture on cabinets, texture on hardware.
I can't really give you a definitive design style that might drive more sales, but, you know, warmer wood tones in their kitchens, more texture. that's kind of what we're seeing. And that's what they saw, overseas in Milan a couple weeks ago as well. So we'll see. yeah, I expect more of the same for the next couple of years. but you never know.
I don't know, do you think that, I guess, like cabinets and hardwood, the trends that are in those markets, is that influencing top knobs and cabinet hardware at all? Like, I know we're kind of getting away from the gray flooring and going more into those Golden's like you talked about Golden being the number one seller right now for you guys, kind of just more going towards that probably.
Yeah, I think I think a lot of that and I think a lot of the finishes that have been popular the last couple of years and cabinets like the the crazed greens, the blues, I think those are going to kind of fade away. Those have the finishes. Nice. Yeah. You never know. Whatever it is, whatever it is, we'll have some cabinet hardware to match. Okay. Perfect. Do you have anything else you want to add about top knobs and what's in the future for top knobs.
So the future for top knobs is more of the same. We're going to continue to innovate, come out with great new designs with multiple lengths, multiple finishes, matching appliance pools, quality that's unmatched in the industry. Back with a lifetime warranty. excellent customer service. You know, the other thing about Top Knobs is we have everything in stock. We have an over 99% water flow rate place in order in the morning ship, same day.
We have, you know, warehouse out on the East coast, one on the West Coast. Usually you have everything within 2 to 3 business days max. So, you know, you continue to see top notch. Just be as strong supplier for you and one that has your back and, yeah, we're we're thrilled to partner with Prosource love doing business with you guys and, yeah. Look forward to continued sales growth in the future. So, it's it was a privilege to be asked to be on this podcast and really, really excited to be here.
this is actually my first ever podcast, so I can't wait to see. Oh, great. Thank you so much for your time. No, thank you for inviting us. It's this was a lot of fun for sure. So have a good one. I’m Kevin Devine, and this is the ProSource Podcast. We're going to switch it over to Greg Payne with Engineered Floors. Greg, thank you for joining today. If you don't mind introducing yourself and introducing what you do with engineered Floors and your position in the company.
Hi, I'm Greg Payne, with engineered floors, director of buying groups. I handle, CCI corporately, as well as hopefully working with every, prosource showroom in the country. I think I've been the most, if not, I'm sorry. I we'll be there shortly. so, I'm good. we've been doing business with you, quite some time. Me personally, through shot and through tough techs and now through, engineered floors.
I've been doing this for probably a little longer than I've always been around. So. But, All good. love, the relationship we have. I love the relationship I have, with Prosource, and, the Prosource family. it's awesome. And we've got some wonderful things in the works, and, a lot of things that are going to happen as we move forward in the future. This episode's all about kitchen design and, engineered floors. is perfect for this episode, actually, because flooring is a huge part of the kitchen.
It's literally the homeowner's foundation for the space. Why do you think that kitchen flooring keeps itself in such a high position when it comes to homeowners and trade pros making decisions on their kitchen floor? You know, it's I'll share something personal with you. We're actually in the process of remodeling our kitchen. There you go. Yes. So I've been going through all the steps, you know, to, get this project started in June. So coming up very shortly.
but, you know, the interesting thing, you know, when you think about a kitchen, you know, I always refer to it as the living kitchen, you know, because everybody wants to spend time in the kitchen no matter what's going on, whether it's celebrations, family events, friends over. It just seems to be a magnet to attract people. But the interesting thing, from a flooring perspective, you know, a lot of rooms in your house may or may not have that much flooring exposed.
So flooring in a kitchen has a lot of exposure. All right. So it really makes a bold statement in the floor of a kitchen. And if you think about it, with most appliances most cabinets are on the wall, you know. So there is a large space there. And so it becomes, a bigger portion of the visual of a kitchen. And I think it's very important.
And if you look at any type of illustration from magazines to digital to whatever, every time you look at one, they really have to focus in on cabinets, because if they do a kitchen shot, you see a lot of flooring, right? They are an island. Those are the two things that seem to dominate, the view. And I think with a lot of what we were seeing as new trends, Island seem to be kind of waning a little bit. And so that exposes even more floor.
So I think those are really key to, you know, the foundation of the kitchen is finding the right flooring. And I can tell you from a personal perspective of, it's the one area my wife is most concerned about. Yeah. I'm sorry. Yeah, probably because of those reasons you just touched. Based on it, I feel like it is like the first thing people say. The first people say, you know, and so it's it is, important aspect of designing a kitchen, know for sure.
And you talked about just how much traffic is usually in the kitchen. usually kitchens are near the front of the house, or at least the doorways, whether that's back or front. How has engineered floors help develop floors that remain durable? To withhold all of that traffic that's going in and out. you have large family gatherings, you have pets in some homes. How has engineered floors kept up with just the durability and the high quality of the flooring?
Well, one thing, that we have, recently done and, if you ever get down this way, Molly, I'd love to give you a tour of our plant. we have a new, plant, making luxury vinyl. And it is direct digital printing right down to the core. And, we do not put layers on it. You know, one of the concerns, with luxury vinyl number one, scratching. Right.
And we are now, making our product with aluminum oxide, which gives us, an AC four rating on the two styles that we just launched with Prosource atmosphere and nurture. Not ugly scratch proof, but it's more scratch resistant. it's more dent resistant. We have a high density, core, that we're very, very proud of. we make every aspect of the product right in our plant. All of the materials are sourced right here in Georgia, Tennessee. And I think a little bit out of Kentucky.
So, it's truly a US made product and one of the few domestic products currently being made and also one of the few true digital luxury models. Speaking of vinyl, is there a call for certain wood appearances more than others right now? Are you seeing which trends are definitely more, in favor by trade pros and homeowners? I would say, just in general, people want wood, you know, that's when you're like, clear. I want wood.
And, you know, there's there's some aspects of wood, you know, if if it is a, a gourmet kitchen you're building with a chef that comes in and cook, maybe you can put wood in there because you probably have a crew to clean up your house and maintain it. but if you're like the rest of us, you know, you want to serve, that gives you that performance, right? That that makes those standards.
And so, you know, with, you know, having a wood visual in digital, it's is five times clearer than anything in the marketplace. Right. That's that's number one. So the visual is outstanding. And back at convention, people remember I had a microscope. I mean, the only person you ever heard, showing flooring with a microscope, but, it was used to point out the fact that it is digital.
Now, there's one important thing in any digital aspect, whether it's a TV or whatever you're looking at, could be digital. Print are the pixels. You know, that's what makes the photo realist. And so, if you laid out real wood next to our product, and I would highly recommend the account manager steer this because it really shows the product extremely well. When this happened, it looks more like wood than it looks like a luxury model.
So when someone comes in requesting that wood visual, they have a, an opportunity to give them a product that meets the water requirements, that meets their performance requirements, yet gives them this incredible visual. And, Molly, there's one additional thing. And this is really cool because it's digital. Our repeat of planks is 35. So what happens. The industry average is seven.
So if you're in a big room with a lot of exposure where most kitchens are, you're going to start seeing repeats, right? Yeah. Lead your meter to go oh that's fake right. because you just keep seeing the repeats, in real wood. You don't necessarily see that. Right. So with our product with 35 plank repeats, you avoid those type of situations too. So we just think we have the right answer for a lot of questions in this environment.
And like you said, most common people aren't going to have actual hardwood floors. No, those people don't have the budget or just, access to keep it clean and maintain it. So, yeah, I mean, we we have the in our house. So, Yeah, yeah. Let's say you want something a little more durable. Wood's wonderful. We have wood in our house, too, but, anyways, no, it's, Paul scraped wood that we have. Yeah. You have to be very careful with. With that. I have a dog, and we have hardwood.
And just one part of our house, but we have an older dog now, so when we leave, we have to keep them off of that and put them in a different room, because cleaning the hardwood is just. It's a nightmare. If you have pet is a nightmare. So a lot of work talking about the the wood look with vinyl. What where do you see that gray is comparing in popularity to the more typical brown? What look is that going out. So so here's the thing with, visuals.
And we're working on a lot of need, of course, but I'll just talk about the current two day course that we have. We have 12 SKUs in each right. So so there's a lot of variables and colors in that, which includes some grays. it's really interesting. You know, as I travel the country, you know, middle of the country is real wood visual, right? Yeah. and, if you're on the coast, it gets much lighter.
Right? Interesting. Okay. where I'm seeing a lot of gray is kind of, western Texas all the way to California. So it's kind of in that, southwest area. I'm seeing gray still maintaining a lot of popularity. Now, once again, going back to personal experience, one person pick up marketing survey. But we found gray and almost everything we were looking at, right. Mean. Whether it was the countertop, whether it was the backsplash, I mean, there was a hint of gray everywhere.
So, you know, I think gray has integrated itself as a neutral color, within all types of flooring. I don't think it's predominant gray, meaning, you know, it takes over everything. Your walls are gray. You know, our cabinets are gray, etc., etc. I think there's still a lot of flexibility to work around gray with many colors, but there are grays, in our products. And I do see, areas of the country that love gray as interesting to here too.
just, you know, with different cultures across the United States, which one is leaning more gray? Which one's leaning more towards, like the Browns and the neutrals? We've talked about kitchens being that high traffic area with pets, moisture spills. How has engineered floors elevated the concept in homes across the country when it comes to combating against moisture?
So, one thing, Molly, and this kind of ties into this a little bit, but I think it's important to mention, you know, in developing this product, basically, from the, the ground up, you know, we changed, our locking system, you know, we saw a lot of issues with tap and lock and, so we went to the the angle angle, for our product. And I have personally, put boards together, not an install solved by any stretch of imagination, but it shows I have put more together. it goes together very easily.
I think the locking system and how that, operates within the system of being waterproof is important. and I think we have the right locking system for that, aspect of it. Certainly.
you know, with, stone, plastic composite, you know, you have a, foundation that is essentially waterproof, there, you know, and I think potentially back in the pandemic days, some of the manufacturers of these cores started trying to reduce cost and changed a few things in their corners that maybe cheapen the product a little bit, maybe lessen some of the, performance characteristics of that.
And I think it's given us a chance to have a fresh start on, developing something from the ground that that was probably a very cool to be a part of, too. Oh, it's great off the tour coming here that. Yeah. always really shocked, to see what what have you heard from trade professionals that are installing flooring and helping homeowners with the selection process that has helped shape the engineered floors selection of flooring.
Do you get any feedback where you're like, I, we need to go in this direction because most of our trade pros are well, the first thing was the locking mechanism, okay. That was feedback that we got. was the locking mechanism. But you know, as we were developing the product and, and by the way, you know, it's not that, you know, we have something that someone could go out and acquire. All right.
Yeah. But, you know, we had to spend about 80 million and, they're not going to get the equipment overnight, maybe a couple of year to get it up and running correctly. Right. Because it is a true, learning process as you make it. And so some of our feedback came when we first started working on it was, some of the, performance issues from making it to dance, like dancing, you know, all those things. And I was told by one account, yeah, to take you about 100,000ft² to get things right. Right.
So there's a lot of things that you test in the lab aren't necessarily going to respond the way you expect when they're actually in the field. So we've had a chance to go through all of that, you know, starting back at the end of last year.
And, and now the product that we have launched out to the pros or showrooms, is what we feel is a high quality product that, you know, will meet all of their expectations and hopefully exceed all of your, members expectations and, and give them a high quality product, well designed and and meet the waterproof meet, you know, more scratch resistant, but most importantly, look like they want it to look right, because ultimately, when you buy a product,
when I buy a product, you know, it's it's what appeals to me, right? And and a lot of times you're looking at something that has a visual appeal. That's part of the value equation. Right? It's that visual, you know. So we think we've given a great value equation with performance, with the characteristics that we have, with the fact that it truly does look like real wood. we've even had some people who have told us it looks like a sanded and finished piece on the floor.
And one of the cool things, Molly, is because it is a digital file. We actually do a digital file of 35 planks. It's how we get the 35 points. So we take real wood, the 35, files. Now, the cool thing about that, because it's digital, going online with our products, it's not a picture of a picture of a picture. Yeah, yeah. That's true. Online we look so much better. I've had so many people. Oh, what are y'all doing to this? Why? You know what? Y'all are digitally enhancing this.
No, it's a digital. It's true. Right? It's the real thing. It's digital. You know, it's not like, you're having to manipulate sales since most of our competitors are film or some type of, paper film base, or there are some that are printing onto paper digital, but it's still not quite the same as direct digital printing.
so I think that's one thing that, really separates us and one thing that we got a lot of feedback on, on moving forward with what excites you the most about vinyl in the home from our perspective. And we've been importing for a long time. Right.
but, you know, making a domestic product and knowing that it is a, a large percentage of the business and being able to participate in that with a product made in the US, sourced in the U.S., that excites me and that excites us, you know, because we're doing something, that, you know, people haven't done at this point, you know, most of this is imported, and, you know, it's coming in containers and, you know, we have a few supply chain issues every once in a while for different reasons.
we're not going to have that. And we can ship out very quickly, and ship it right from vault in here. And, and that excites me from the aspect of, providing, you know, our base in North America, a quality US made, us sourced product. That's awesome. Yeah. It does feel like just listening to you and hearing about engineered floors that, engineers floors is doing a lot of things that nobody else is doing right now in the industry. When did engineers floors start?
So, engineers floors, floor started 13 years ago. Okay. And, literally, we have a plant called Sam. And you'll appreciate this is named after someone's dog. Oh, yeah. It's a hunting dog. They had, Sam plant and, it is over 3000ft² under one roof. Now, let me explain how Dalton works. Okay. Yeah, it's kind of weird. Especially. Have you ever been here? No, I have it. Okay. So this is kind of interesting. So if you ever drive around, like, I just went out and got some latch, right?
and you see all these trucks from all these manufacturers driving everywhere. Okay. And, people always ask us, why don't we see your trucks? Now, there's a simple reason. So an average square foot, from our competitors, their trucks drive 250 miles for one square foot. That's just involved. Yeah. So they have to move it from this plant to this plant, to this plant, to this plant 250 miles. We average five miles per square foot. Wow. So it's a green story.
It's a hard one to promote, but it's truly a green story. Yeah. Sustainability passes and less gas used on top. Yeah. so when engineer for started, it was the only flooring, company in the business that was under one roof and at one time is one of the largest, manufacturing facilities in the world. I think, Tesla now, has passed, but we do have. Yeah, and we do have. Yeah. I used to expand it, quickly if needed. And, so we're very happy about, you know, our manufacturing process.
Very proud of it. And, we think we make a high quality product. and, you could ask anyone, about our service, and you'll hear from everyone. Our service is second to none. When did you guys introduce digital digital flooring? Okay, so, I started in October, right? Okay. And, we had people in, prior to that, and they saw the equipment and they saw some mock ups, and it really seen anything. Truly. Right. until literally when I was in, in October, we were really starting to, run inventory, right?
I mean, I know a lot of things. There is another green story to, our manufacturing there. That's also one that's really hard to relate, to customers, to consumers, to members, to whoever. But we can, literally take a product, run it through the entire process.
And before we put the attach pad, we can actually recycle it, re grind it and make it back into core because there's sale literally, we're printing right onto the core so we can do that and put it back into the process, go through the whole extrusion process again and make another core, without a single waste. We've had a lot of people. Well, we know you're, you know, starting this thing. So, what are you doing with your seconds? Really? Know how. Yeah, yeah.
You know, because once we get to that last step and, you know, we're kind of committed. I know we've we've talked about a lot of things that, Engineered Floors is going to be having in the next year. I mean, the digital concept is still pretty new. Like you just touched base on. Is there anything else on the horizon with engineered floors coming up in the next year or two with vinyl and particularly anything we haven't touched base on? We are working on some, very interesting things.
we actually have the, CSA hard surface buying team back here, and we showed them some of the new, the cores that we're working on, some of the new visuals, some of the things that we're learning as we use the equipment more and more, some unique things that we can do, one we refer to as bold, where you're actually bringing out or the graining because of how you process the image. so you're adding more ink. So it creates a bolder look. So it brings out the graining a little bit more.
We also have what's known as a digital embossing process. It's spot on because it's kind of like a 3D printer. You know, you're not manufacturing. You have slides, you know, shipping. it's right spot on. So, our digital embossing is, quite unique, to the industry really giving a not so much the feel because, you know, once a consumer fills in the sole, they'll probably never feel it again. Once they fill it up, it does, but it's primarily for the visual effect. Right.
So you can, you know, see that, not you can see, medullary. Right. You can see, mineral streaks. You know, all those things are enhanced by other digital embossing. So there's a lot of things we're learning there. We're also learning with aluminum oxide how to move into a five. Even potentially a C6 for even, you know, more stringent, requirements. and so in some of the visuals, you know, because, you know, you can take a, a digital image of anything, right?
So we, we, you know, looking at some really unique, wood sources, to continue doing that and, you know, maybe sometime in the future, which, strangely enough, it's an easier process to make tiles than it is what we could, potentially make tile at some point. And also, you know, it's not going to happen right away, but we can also make, longer water planks as well, in the future. So, and so a lot of opportunity and, and, you know, just starting it's kind of just getting that flavor. yeah.
Marketing and understanding that market better. And, what, you know, our equipment can do. That's another big part of it. Our engineers, learn almost every day some unique things that we can do. Yeah. I can't even imagine with how quick the world's changing to just with technology in 2026, this might look entirely different. Yeah, but you just said you never know. You never know. I mean, you know, who knows?
You know, I mean, you know, I look back, ten years ago, I would be shocked at what we do today. Right? Yeah, that's very exciting. A lot of fun and exciting things happening with engineered floors. It sounds like. Yeah. Well, thank you so much today for your time. Greg. I know it's nice to see you, too. And maybe if I'm down there sometime, I'll take a tour. we'd love to have you down. You're welcome to tight. Awesome. Thank you so much. Have a great day. You, too.
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