Hi, I'm Mollie Thompson, and this is the ProSource podcast. In each episode, we'll be talking to industry experts, including trade professionals, suppliers and our showroom staff about a variety of topics within home and commercial projects. Enjoy. If you don't mind Kyle, just telling us a little bit about what Shaw is. If someone has no clue and then also what you do for Shaw. Yeah. So Sean is, one of the largest foreign manufacturers in the world.
starting with, the company was founded based on carpet. and then expanded into multiple hard surface categories. And so, the industry evolved. so we are participating in just about all hard surface categories, along with carpet being our core as well. And so my role within Shaw, I'm the category director of hardwood flooring and laminate flooring. How long have you been with with Shaw? Almost two and a half years. Okay. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, it's. It's been. It's been a lot of fun. a lot of changes.
A lot of things have involved in the industry. But, you know, I really love the company. the culture is incredible. people are great. That's awesome. Good to hear. So today's episode is all about hardwood. So with more modern designs, hardwood has stayed near the top of the flooring option rotation. Why do you think it has stayed so relevant or what has kept it so relevant?
I mean, if you really think about it, it's the oldest or the second oldest hard surface flooring option that's been around next to stone. I mean, hardwood flooring started being used in the 1600s. Right. So everybody is familiar with hardwood. it's it's stood the test of time, people. It's proven people know it. And if you really think about it as other product categories have evolved, they're leveraging wood looks. So people are inspired by real hardwood.
Now whether they choose to go with a wood look alternative I think depends upon what their, you know, living conditions are, what their lifestyles like. And what their budget is. But people who know hardwood and understand the benefits of it are going to seek out hardwood. So, I mean, the industry continues to innovate and change, but I mean, at the end of the day, we're still utilizing most of the same species.
Now the technologies with finishes and textures have evolved, you know, evolution into engineered hardwood flooring and things of that nature and allowed us to go wider and longer. but yeah, that that's hopefully that answers your question there. But I mean, what is typically the inspiration of most hard surface flooring shopping? Yeah, I feel like people really like that classic look. And we you touched on it a little bit, that it's that look is replicated in different kinds of fashions.
Why do you think that going to straight hardwood would be the better choice? I know it's probably more expensive than some other options that look like hardwood, but they're not hardwood. Why would you vouch for maybe spending a little bit more and getting that hardwood? So durability, right. That's that's a big one. it's it's the real deal. No one board is the same. Right? So you're not going to see any repeats. it's 100% natural. it's not an image printed on anything. It is the real deal.
so everything you see, I mean, kind of tells the story of the tree, right? You've got mineral streaking in the wood. What? You know, that's how the tree absorbs and transfer moisture throughout the tree. I mean, it just it's it's natural beauty, you know, based on scholarly research, that it is the only hard surface flooring option out there to. That shows to get you 100% return on your investment and add value to your home. Oh that's awesome. I didn't I didn't know that actually. Yeah.
So that's that's a big reason that, you know, we really don't talk about it in the industry as we should. But I mean, people when, when they walk into a home and realtors love this as well, that the first thing you see is the flooring, right. You know, you got your head down the knob and you walk in and and you see the form. So if you've got real hardwood, it really sets the tone of, you know what that home has to offer. And it's beautiful in your opinion. It is very timeless.
We've talked about, it's also very trendy. I feel like it never goes out of style. How does it balance both sides of being timeless, but also trendy in current times, in your opinion? You know, here's the thing about hardwood. You could have, you know, a very rustic species such as hickory, right, that really blend. It can it can go more contemporary depending on how you design your home. And then it also can fit very well into a rustic cabin environment.
So there's a lot of versatility there with multiple wood species. you have the ability to sand and refinish. if you wanted to change the look or if there's any damage or anything of that nature, you can you can sand and refinish it and change the stain color. You know, technology has evolved with finishing and then and dimensions. So with the growth and engineered, you're able to go from where the widest you would typically go with a solid hardwood. you can go up to, you know, 10 to 12in.
Now, if you have a really large open floor plan that looks those wide boards look really good. And then from a dimensional stability standpoint, I mean, the introduction of engineered really changed the game because there's climates out there in the US, you know, in Colorado and in Nevada and Utah that aren't conducive for solid hardwood form because they're so dry. So having a, plywood or an HDF core, really, that opens up the door for those people to have real hard wood in their homes.
So that's interesting. What would you say is like the number one driving force of hardwood trends? I know a lot of people have talked about just getting on Pinterest and seeing what everyone's really into. Do you think it's something as simple as that, or something maybe even greater, that is pushing some of these trends that we see in hardwood? Look, I'm no designer by any means, but I do follow trends.
I mean, if you look at the trends over time, it's it's really you went from this contemporary trend to where more modern contemporary and then, you know, things are evolving. More people like more natural and rustic, you know, visuals they like, I call it, appreciation of depreciation, repurposing things. So hardwood goes well with that. again, the natural visual I think will always in its history will carry hardwood.
and we can continue to innovate with finishes to kind of adapt to those trends. You know, typically trends start in Europe and they and they move eastward and then come around and then come back for California and then move for in the United States. So, hardwoods very versatile. I wouldn't say hardwood floor necessarily sets the trend, but it's just one of those products that can adapt because of your the can kind of fit into all these trends, because of the available species.
They provide different visuals that the trend is more subtle and neutral than a white oak. And what you're seeing trending right now will work well if it's more rustic. then you've got acacia, you've got hickory, you've got, you know, several species out there that really offer a lot of variation, and uniqueness in the home. Have you seen manufacturing be impacted by these trends or not? Yeah, yeah for sure.
I mean, if you look at, if you look at, you know, ten years ago, the, the bulk of the, the wood market was two and a quarter, three and a quarter and five inch on the engineered side. You know, it was it was somewhat it was relatively new. It was predominantly solid hardwood flooring. and then, you know, the introduction of engineered really changed the game. And trends have gone wider and longer.
So where it was two and a quarter, three and a quarter five, you know, you started to see six ounce than seven inch, eight inch and then wider and wider, and again, more growth and engineered. Are you seeing that there's a higher demand for solid or engineered floors? Engineered, definitely. If you look at the market data, the industry data, I would say right now I'm just giving you an approximate number. The mix between engineered and solid is about 7030.
Okay. so and that's an average number, ballpark number, I should say. But yeah, 70% engineered, about 30% solid. Where ten years ago, that number was much different. That's very interesting to think about to just how quick that changes. Speaking about species, you've talked about it a little bit. Is there a certain is there a call for certain species more than others? Yes. Right now, and I say that before white oak is really driving the market right now.
Nordic visuals, subtle texture, so subtle. Wire brushed and just more neutral tones are really what's what's trending right now. So we went from, you know, a couple of years back, it was, you know, gray, I mean, it was gray everywhere. Now it's more of a grays or a beige, and just lighter, lighter colors and subtle textures. I do know where. Yeah, the gray was everywhere. Yeah. And prior to prior to gray and kind of in tandem with gray actually was, you know, heavy distressing.
So heavy hand scrapes and things of that nature were really there features like that were really driving the industry. And and right now it's just it's all about lighter colors and subtle textures. Yeah. My mom is still on the distressing trend she loves. She can't let that go. How do you gauge the popularity of those wood species or finishes? How do you how can you tell necessarily what's really driving that? So we've got to well, there's multiple ways.
you know, we've got a professional design team that travels around and they're in tune with with, the design industry and kind of understanding trends and what's going on. So they go to a lot of shows. We we get a lot of feedback from them. There's a lot of publications out there. but also to for me, I go out in the marketplace and I travel around and I see what's being displayed in showrooms. So that'll kind of give you people are going to show what selling.
so if you, if you go into a dealer like a ProSource, for example, and I see multiple displays with light white oak, and that's telling me that like white oak is probably trending for sure. If I seen the inverse of that to where I see multiple displays with a lot of stained hickory. Okay. Well then the market's more rustic, but it's a combination of spending time in the marketplace and and leveraging our professional design team to give us that feedback. Awesome.
so what excites you most about hardwood in the home right now? What, is really peaking your interest? I mean, people are sustainability is a big thing right now. People are really they want sustainable products that, you know, are going to, you know, and I have a reduction in carbon footprint. Well, when I think about hardwood and, you know, a lot of people think of this, you know, burly lumberjack going down and cutting down a tree and, and then it's it's really not sustainable.
But and maybe that was the case 100 years ago. Right. Or you know, even sooner than that. But that's not the case anymore. We I mean, multiple countries regulate their for their forestry management regulations are very stringent. You know, when they're going in and they're harvesting timber, they're replanting. so there's a lot of sustainable forestry going on. and I think we need to think about that. We need to talk about that. I mean, if it's regenerative.
Now, don't get me wrong, it's not like a grass to where it comes back every year. But, you know, it may take some depending on the species, 30 to 100 years to be able to harvest. But, I mean, we're still being responsible about where we harvest. Yeah. And then making sure that we're being good stewards of the land. and that's important.
So that's exciting to me, seeing trend shift in the sustainable species as the sustainable products and knowing that hard wood already fits that bucket hardwood is just, again, a lot of it's been the same, but there has been change visually. There's just so much you can do with it. and again, nothing beats the real thing. and the unique visuals, and, and a lot of the innovation and staining technologies, a lot of that and what it's doing to really enhance the wood visual really excites me.
So you're going to see and you have seen with us, we've launched some oil rub finishes, some reactive stains, and they just look really, really good and just add another level of esthetics to that world and just really brings out the true beauty in that. No, I agree, and going back to the staining part, I feel like staining is, much more applicable now with social media. And you could just hop on YouTube and look at a tutorial on how to properly say you're saying something.
So now people are able to repurpose hardwood in a lot more different ways. And maybe 50 years ago, when learning how to do that was more of a I need to know someone, to learn how to do that, you know, and, and you know, if you think about going back with sustainability and you just it kind of sparked, something that came to mind for me that I didn't mention earlier. I talked about sustainable forestry.
But again, if you buy a product and engineered product with a thick enough veneer face, you can sand and refinish multiple times. If you have solid hardware, you can sand refinish multiple times, so you're not having to tear up a product and then take it to a landfill. But with hardwood, if you do take it to a landfill, it's going to decompose over time. I mean, it is it's an organic product. Yeah. So it will decompose and go back into the Earth.
so that's something else to call out there from sustainability aspect. That's awesome. And I feel like a lot of people probably don't think about that too. And that's a big, for bad first impression, I think on hardwood with the sustainability factor, people just don't realize all those all those things in place that are keeping it in a sustainable category. So thank you for touching on that.
Lastly, what is on the horizon for hardwood floors and going into the rest of this year or going into 2025, do you see any trends changing? The only trend and it's really the trend is shifting. And I've I've heard a lot of buzz about this in the marketplace more mid browns. So we're starting to you know kind of go back. So it's just it's like a it's it's a cycle. Yeah. So we're we went to light and then now we're starting to see a little bit more trend in the more mid browns golden tones.
And coming back around there. But white oak is again subtle neutral white oak that's still driving the marketplace. What we're trying to do is we're trying to leverage other species out there because I mean, no doubt about it, the the supply chain is constrained because everybody loves white cane. It's used in high end furniture, it's used in flooring, and it's used in the whiskey industry and the bourbon industry. So that's a that's a big deal there.
And that takes up a lot of the the raw materials. So what I try to do is okay, what are other alternatives out there that we can produce really good looking visuals that align with trends. And you're going to see that with us. You know, we're launching some products at the back half of this year that really want to leverage oil rub finishes, cleaner grades and more neutral colors and alternative species that are more readily available, kind of along with those trends. Yeah. That's great.
And you're going to see us continue to work with reactive stains and different and patterns and different finish techniques and textures that are, going to really kind of allow us to be in the trend later now. Yeah, I, I think White Oak is so easily able to, like, pair with so many different colors and decorations in the home. So I don't know if that'll be going away soon, but I have seen what you're touching on the mid browns coming in.
people just going back to that like kind of Western look with their homes. Yeah. rustic maybe a little bit. Well, thank you so much for your time today, Kyle. thank you for speaking on hardwood. It was great to get your take on everything. Yeah. Thank you so much. We are going to switch things over to Kelly Oberschlake from Mohawk Industries. Kelly, do you mind giving listeners at home that might be not super familiar with Mohawk, What exactly Mohawk provides and also your role in the company?
Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me today. First off, Mohawk Industries, we are the world's largest flooring manufacturer. We, make carpet, hardwood laminate, LPT, ceramic tile. We have a large, tile division Dow tile, which is based in Dallas, Texas. And the rest of us at Mohawk Corporate are based just outside of Atlanta. And my role I am vice president of sales. I handle our national accounts. and so I'm lucky to be with the pro Source group. Good deal.
well, today we're going to be talking all about hardwood floors to start off, I wanted to ask you, why do you think that hardwood has stayed near the top of the flooring option rotation? previously. And even with more modern designs, why do you think, in your opinion, that it has kept so relevant? Well, first off, it's timeless. So, many of our grandparents had hardwood floors, and, we grew up on hardwood floors, so we trust them, just knowing that it is a durable product.
most of the hardwood products can be refinished as well. And so it's a, product that you can keep in your home for a lifetime, for sure. I, I feel like especially nowadays, there's a lot of repurposing hardwood floors. re sanding them down, re staining and especially with, you know, more of a recent impact with like sustainability. Two people are looking for ways to repurpose that old hardwood. It is known for being timeless and trendy like you mentioned.
How do you think it specifically balance both sides of being timeless but also trendy? When new, trends pop up? Well, I definitely think, it's timeless. Just, you know, from the, the natural looks and feel that you get with it. but you can definitely make it more trendy, by changing colors or different species. so I would definitely say that that species piece, can make it trendy, you know, years ago, Brazilian cherry was the thing everybody wanted Brazilian cherry in their home.
that has actually gone out of style a bit. now we're looking at wider planks and European oaks, much more cleaner visuals, and lighter muted colors now for sure. Definitely. light like white oak type of species is is definitely. And do you think that moving into this a next year, maybe into 2025, do you see that there would be a different kind of trend from what we're seeing right now? Well, so we're always chasing trend and and we're always actually looking to see what is coming.
we are following, you know, companies like Pottery Barn and Restoration Hardware and just to see what their furniture, we like to work in, and with the large suppliers, just, you know, with our ideas and what we're looking to, launch in 25 at Mohawk here we are such a large company. We're already working on visuals and, looks for 25 and 26 right now. but I still believe it is, still lighted, muted colors, and cleaner visuals. in 25 as well.
Would you say that the new hardwood trends that do emerge, do those particularly impact manufacturing? Absolutely. Because, you know, for instance, hand scraped was extremely popular a few years ago. Those take certain types of machines to run that product. so for sure, and also with the wider, longer products that are popular now, we've added lots of machinery to our plants in order to manufacture wider, longer planks, that we did not have to have in the past.
So previously, you know, three inch plank was, considered somewhat of a wide plank. Then it went to five, then it went to seven and nine and so on. So for sure we've had to adjust our manufacturing, to accommodate, new trends that are emerging. When you're looking at finishes, where do you think Greg compares in popularity to the typical brown tones to the stock? If you asked that question two years ago, I would have said gray is definitely in.
Everybody wants Gray. Yeah. but right now the Browns have resurfaced and, they are actually far more popular than gray at this present time. So gray is definitely, had its run and it's while it's not completely gone, it's definitely not the color of choice, that we're seeing right now. It's more ivory tones and browns. And just out of curiosity, why do you think that more goldens or more browns are taking over the the White Oaks? Everything kind of runs its time, right?
So it all goes full circle. And I think, gosh, the industry was so gray for a few years that I think, we are all over gray. and, you know, carpet side, I will say that, gray carpet in, the South, especially where we are. Georgia. red clay is actually gray highlights red clay. So it shows everything. and brown tends to hide color a little bit more dirt, etc.. So that's, that's true. That's a good point. Yeah. how do you gauge the popularity of a wood species or a finish?
So we are constantly tracking all of that. yeah. You know, based on sales, from all of our divisions.
So we're constantly, tracking popularity of species and, like, us, I mentioned earlier, the large unit furniture companies, Pottery Barn, Restoration Hardware, we look to see where their trends are headed and try to make sure that we're working, and in team and in step with, the large manufacturers in the furniture industry as well, wood looks that are in other categories such as laminate, tile, luxury vinyl.
Why would you say that hardwood is a better choice than some of those, like, look alike alternatives? well, I definitely, you know, it's the real deal. So, you know, all of the other products are trying to look like wood. but this is the real deal. It's wood. And, so we are seeing that there's, thicker face veneers that people are, you know, they prefer to be able to see that thick face, on a wood product, so that they know they are really paying for wood.
They're getting wood. It's not a thin paper layer. and so, like I said, it's the real deal. If somebody is maybe concerned about the sustainability behind hardwood flooring, maybe someone from the outside looking at is wondering about the trees and just the sustainability behind it all. Do you have any, insights, I guess, on sustainability in hardwood flooring right now?
Absolutely. So Beau Hawk, we fund, several programs, where we actually plant trees for every tree that we, our that is taken down in order to, manufacture wood. We actually invest heavily in sustainability programs to make sure that we are replanting trees back into the environment. Awesome. What excites you most personally about hardwood in the home? I just love it because like I said earlier and I've used we both have used the term a few times in this, interview, but it's timeless.
and it is extremely durable. And, you know, I like knowing that I have the real deal. This might sound silly, but you know, it's like a purse. you know, if if you have the real deal and you know what? Maybe somebody else can see it and it doesn't look like it, but, you know, you have the real one. There's just something to be said for that. So, you know, I, I like to, know that it is a real product that's on the floor and there's no question and no two boards look alike because it is, natural.
So you're not going to have to worry about repeats, etc.. because it is the real deal. Yeah. Especially the the durability too. I feel like if you're going to spend the money, you might as well get the best product right. So what do you think is on the horizon for hardwood floors next? I know we're kind of going through a transition period right now from grays to more of the like browns like you mentioned.
What could you see happening in 2025 or 2026, maybe past this trend that's going on right now? Gosh, you never know. What's a rapidly. But I will say that I definitely think wider and longer, will continue to grow. And so stay tuned because, definitely some exciting things are on the horizon for sure. That's awesome. Yes, we will be launching, several new products, this year at our edge convention in December. And so we will have a look into the future there for sure. Awesome.
A lot of exciting things happening with Mohawk. Yes for sure. Well, thank you so much, Molly, for having me. I of course much. No problem. Thank you so much for your time and thank you for joining us today. Absolutely. Have a great day. Thank you for joining us today on the Pro Source podcast. Please like and subscribe to us wherever you get your podcast. Also, follow us on social media.
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