Hello, this is The ProSource Podcast. I'm Kevin Devine, Director of Digital Marketing Content for ProSource Wholesale. In this series we’ll focus on home remodeling, especially kitchens and bathrooms. You'll hear from those in the know, including our corporate merchandizers showroom team members and the trade professionals who ultimately make it happen. We're glad you've joined us. Enjoy. Hello. In this episode of The ProSource Podcast, we're joined by Ellen Kurtz, who's an interior designer.
A member here at ProSource Wholesale. Ellen, thanks for joining us. Thank you. So let's start with a real simple question. Ease into it here. Tell us who you are and what you do. Well, I'm an interior designer, have been in business for many years. Don't want to say the number, just want to go with many. And I started out went to the University of Missouri. I have a minor in architecture, major interior design, and been in the business for,
like I said, many years. Okay. So that answers that part. What got you into the industry? What motivated you? Obviously, you went to college, you got an interior design degree, but what motivated you to do that? Well, when I was younger, I always shopped with my mom and dad doing their own home and then got interested in but was really interested in fine arts, but realized I was not going to be able
to make money doing that. So quickly decided when I got to Mizzou that I, I thought, you know what? Interior design is definitely where I want to be. And we'll have a discussion later about why Missouri calls itself Mizzou. That's a whole separate discussion we can have. Right. Do you have so you're an interior designer. You put together design. So do you have other trade professionals that you work with to execute on your vision that you put forth? Oh, yes. Many.
So I work with lots of builders, many contractors and specifically like two major ones right now. And they execute my design, put everything together. I give them a drawings and selections and then they take it from there. So I'm guessing it probably helps to have some consistency in who you use because you understand their work and they understand your vision. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. That's that's it's hard to find somebody that you can be matched up with and you work well together.
And I've been to lots of contractors, you know you just as you work with them and they understand you and you understand them, you let them be professional in their part and you hope to receive that on the back end of it as well. So but yeah, it works. It works well when you connect with somebody. I was going to ask, what does that dynamic like when you work together?
So part of my job, I always laugh with the contractors I work with now is my job is to get the materials there, on location and their job is to stay there and put it together. So making selections with my clients, like my part is always up in the beginning of the project. And, and then as he executes and pulls things together, I'm always checking in on the jobs. It's not that I'm not there, but I trust him in taking care of that and not having to check in with them
too often. So. Too often. Yeah, too often. So let's touch on that. Your job is to make sure the products get their his his or her job is to make sure that it gets installed. Right. How often do you stop by it at the job site and check on progress and see how things are going? It varies. It depends on, you know, what part a part of the job that they're at. And many times my clients they, they're not on the job site at all.
So they just want me to walk through with them at different times just to make sure everything's running smoothly. And, and that and that works out pretty good. Sometimes the contractors are there, other times it's after hours, so he won't be there. It just it it varies. Yeah. So now, I’m compelled to ask, have you ever gone in when the contractor isn't there and just been freaked out at what you're seeing that that is not what you envision? Yes. Or a product that arrived recently.
I had a situation where I'm doing a executing a fireplace and the stone was on the job. It got delivered and the stone was not correct. It was it had shading of green in it and there was no green in the sample. So I had to walk through and get Eddie on the job and pull off everything. And we went through all the boxes and, and there was a lot of tile, so we had to send it all back and I had to make a reselection. So that's been a process is still ongoing.
Well, you reselected just out of curiosity was because you just couldn't trust it at that point. Or they were saying, it’s probably going to have green. Yes. Yeah. They were saying by the time you eliminate all the green stone that was appearing, you know, it was a natural product, so there was no guarantee. So we had to get rid of it. And I picked out something that was a little bit more predictable. Well, that's a good way of putting it. Yeah. How disappointing is that?
No, it. Was. It was because it doesn't change. The whole vision, too. No, not that much. I mean, it did in the beginning. And then I had to, like, just come to resolve with it and just say, hey, we're just moving on. We got to get going on this project. So because it held it up for a good three weeks, so. Wow. Yeah. No fun. Then. Probably the homeowner was none too thrilled with that either. How do you, how do you manage that aspect? Yeah. Luckily, this homeowner trust me and everything.
So I just flat out said, hey, you know what? We're going to have to just change course. And, you know, and they're like, Whatever you think. So that was. Good. Well, that works out well. Yeah. Yeah. I mentioned earlier you're a member of Process Wholesale. How long have you been a member? And why did you join? Well, I've been member at least 30 years.
When they first started and they were over off of, I think it was Metro Boulevard and did work with them when they first like I was in appeared in one of their magazine ads. And I used to go there all the time just to make selections for carpeting, mainly at that point. And then as you get further into your career and stuff tiles and you know, any anything that they offered.
And now of course, there's so much bigger, you know, with the cabinetry and plumbing and all of that, which is great to utilize. I just I love coming here. So yeah, so I'm I'm going to put a little context on this for our viewers and for our listeners, because you said for 30 years. So ProSource Wholesale started in 1991. St Louis showroom was the first of those showrooms. Yeah. So here we are, 2023. Yeah. So, yeah, you were you were pretty close to the beginning there.
I was, yeah. Yeah. I worked with Mike, who was the manager there, and like I said, did many, many projects with them. So you've seen many changes? Oh, yes, lots of changes. And we'll be talking about that. Yeah, that's. Yeah, yeah. So here's the question. That's how long you've been with us. What keeps you coming back as a member for that long. For 30 years. Yeah. It's what's the. What's the. Biggest?
Well, the biggest thing is Eddie Weddington is my manager, and he always gets back with me quickly, which is great. And if there's a problem, always comes to some solution. But then when they started adding the cabinetry and took me off into another part of my career, which I could then purchase the cabinets and do the complete design, you know, before I always had to go to a retail place, pick our cabinetry there,
go from place to place a place. Here, I can come one, you know, it's like one stop shopping, you know, it's like everything's here. So it, it makes it much easier, much faster. Specifically as a designer, you know, what are some of the benefits of working with ProSource? Is it just being that one stop shop, especially now? Yes, definitely. Yeah, Products. Definitely that and I get the help that I need.
So I think before when I used to have to go to cabinet places, you relied on the salesperson to come up with the design. And I always had input, but not as much input. When I can control it from the beginning, which I like a lot better, I feel like I end up with a much better product because I have a vision and I want to execute that.
And instead of having somebody share that with a client, it's me sharing it with my client and having the support behind it and it makes my product come out much better and my vision come up a lot better too. So when it comes to product selection, do you have a preference in that? Do you bring your homeowner clients here to the showroom and go through the product selection, or do you prefer to take samples to them and maybe have a little bit of a control there?
Yeah, it well, it depends on the client. Okay. Some people will just say, Hey, I'll just narrow it down to two selections or just give me what you think and I'll take the things you know, the selections to them. If somebody's really wanting to go through lots of things, then I will bring them in. But usually that only happens once and we'll spend quite a bit of time pulling from, you know, flooring, cabinetry, countertops, plumbing, all of that.
And then once we put it all together, then they'll just say, hey, bring bring me some other choices or some other ideas. But typically it's only one time they come in. So yeah. So when you talked about taking all those products and putting it together, do you put together like a sort of, I'll call it a design board, as it were, putting all those products together in one little grouping so they could see how they may all interact in that particular space. Yeah, quite a bit.
If once I go and see a client that and then I'll invite them to come here, I'll usually have something already laid out as a starting point so that we can say, Hey, what do you think of these? And, you know, narrow it down from there, you know, tweak it, whatever. So yeah. So you mentioned Eddie your account manager. How do you navigate the product selection along side of him? Do you how involved, I guess does he have. Hardly any at all.
He laughs at me because I just come in and take over and just do whatever. But I do bring him in when I don't know something in particular about a product, which is great because used to be, you know, I would have to go to all these different like things to, you know, teach me about products and I don't have time for that anymore. So I really lean on Eddie to help me with that part of it. Like, especially with flooring.
That's one thing with, you know, hardwoods in the LVT products now and it changes so quickly anymore. So and I just depend on him to kind of guide me in that. So is also part of it keeping Eddie not necessarily out of the product selection, but just, you know, you controlling that part is part of that also just your comfort level because you have been a member for so long. Yeah, Yeah. A lot of it is. I just come in, I'm in and out like so quickly and, you know, and Eddie always laughs with me.
I go, I come take samples and then he'll go, Is your car full of samples? And I'll say yes. And he goes, Jump me, go clean it out. And I'm like, Yes. So we bring all the samples back in and we drop them off. And anyway, so. Okay, yeah. So, you know, ProSource has in-house kitchen and bath designers. Do you make use of that service? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, at least once a week, if not more. Okay. Yeah. So I work with Laura. Okay. And she's great.
She does a great job and helps me execute my designs and and my vision. So, yeah. So this might be a I want to talk a little bit about the dynamic of that relationship and this might be a good time also to sort of clarify, because you're a designer an interior designer, we have kitchen and bath designers maybe talk a little bit about the distinction of what role each of you play here and then therefore how you work together when you're coming to the showroom.
Right. Primarily, I mean, I already have a vision coming in. What what really AIDS is the drawings that she generates for me, especially the 3D drawings, because if somebody in in their home has a certain vision and and I'm not seeing their vision, but anything that I can give them on paper so that they can comment on and just help to see, you know, yes, this is where we're going in the right direction. You know, anything visual that you can give a client is best.
So and she really helps me on that part of it so much. Okay. Yeah. But at least once a week you're working with her. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So that would raise another interesting question in that when you look at the projects that you do, are the vast majority of them kitchens and bathrooms or at least involve a kitchen and bathroom? I would say not, no, not all projects. I mean, I do do a lot of kitchens and baths, but like a bar. I'm doing a wine cellar right now that she's helping me with.
I'm doing another bar. So it just it's all over. It could be just even refreshing a house, which a lot of my clients are just refreshing. So it just involves changing countertops, maybe a backsplash. So, you know, we come in with a drawing to do that. So, yeah, it's all over the board. I mean, you know, lots of different things. But no, I'm not always doing kitchens and baths. I do lots of other products.
Well, if you want to come over to my place and do a wine cellar, I'm not going to say no to that by the way. Yeah, that was interesting. Something else that you mentioned there with the refresh and maybe just doing countertop or doing a backsplash. So it doesn't have to be a whole room makeover for you. You could take something that small and work with it. Is that mostly though, also from previous clients. Yes. Okay.
Yeah. Yeah. It's clients that I've worked with for years and maybe I did their house, you know, 10, 15 years ago. They'll want to come back and say, okay, take this house and give me a new look. Some of it is just like maybe using their area rugs, changing paint colors, adding some new cabinets or, you know, furniture pieces just to change it up. You know, they get tired and they want it to look different. So, yeah, so I'm working on
lots of projects like that. Yeah. So the smaller scale as it were. Yeah. Yeah. How many projects do you take on at a time? Well, I was counting the other day because I'm like usually I, I know usually throughout the year I'll have like 20 projects going at one time. Right now I have probably about 12 or 15. At one time. Yeah. Yeah. How do you balance that? Everybody's had a different face, so, you know, you might concentrate really heavily on a project. Like right now I'm doing a barn.
I haven't done a barn. Yes, I'm doing a barn. Okay. Yes, We may talk about this. Yeah. It's a great project. In fact, I'm going there right after I leave here, so. But it's a two story barn, and I'm. I'm working with all the finishes right now, trying to come up with the stained colors for the exterior. But anyway, so it's a fun project. No, I'm not letting this go. I can't. Okay. What are the animals being kept inside this barn? And we're, like, setting them up on some nice LVT flooring?
No, No. This. This is going to be more like a fun barn where they have lots of toys to store. Okay, so it's out in Wildwood, and we're actually doing a container pool. It's a pool made out of a truck container. Okay. And they're taking containers now and they're actually lining them and turning them into pools. And so we're adding one of these on the end of the barn. So they it's a lap pool, basically. Wow. It's a fun project. I would love to see pictures of this when this is done. I know.
Because I'm trying to envision that. Well, it's really fun because I was there yesterday and I'm seeing all the wood go up and it's like an actual barn raising. I love it. It's so fun. I'm taking pictures every day. So. Have you ever done anything like that? No, no, this is a new venture So how did you prep yourself? Is there even, like, research you can do for this? No, not really. No, not really. It's funny because my client.
You know, I've done their home, obviously, and it's right on their land, so they've been wanting this barn for a while. So anyway, I got involved and, you know, it's just fun. Yeah. So, so sorry to drive so much into that project, but that was so unique. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I have a lot of unique projects. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So maybe a little bit of a spinoff of that. How do you go about gathering information on the homeowners lifestyle and incorporate that into your design?
And when I say that I'm talking kids, pets working from home, which many people do now, even in-laws who may or may live there, how do you go about getting that information and then incorporating those parts into your design? Yeah, well, that's part of my one of my very first meetings with the customer and talking to them about how they use their space in their house, you know, and some of these homes that are older, you know, they'll have the formal living room, formal dining room.
People don't use those. So reworking spaces, I do a lot of space planning to make the rest of the house work instead of adding square footage, use the square footage they have to try to incorporate some of those. Right now I'm working on a project in the city where the customer, they live there for probably about ten years, but they want their in-laws to move in. So they're we're developing and adding an addition onto the home so that the parents can live with them as they age.
So yeah, I think we're going to see a lot more of that. You do to sort of the trend line is going. Yeah, I think you're going to see more families living together because costs are getting so expensive and I think I think we're going to see some of that. Yeah. Okay. So you touched on a little bit here.
How do you navigate actually take into account the traffic flow within a home, a home remodel design, especially, say, in a kitchen that could may or may not have like an island they could, you got navigation around that. So how does traffic flow get incorporated into your designs? Yeah, it's definitely important. Obviously, it depends on, you know, how somebody is coming in from their home, whether through the garage or how they use that kitchen space.
A lot of people will want to incorporate places where they make charging stations. They'll use their computer at an island. There's an if they have pets, you know, many people want to incorporate like a pet area, whether it's in the kitchen or close by in a laundry space. And I'm seeing more like people who use appliances and they don't necessarily want it in the kitchen.
Pantries become really important, so they're actually incorporating stations in the pantries where they bring out appliances or leave them out all the time so that they do use them instead of, you know, trying to pull something out. You know, don't keep it already set up, which is good. That isn't when it's either out or easily accessible it’s amazing how much more frequently they are used. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Yeah. So just because you brought up because we were talking about pets here, too, are you seeing a lot of look, I'll use the term pet station but more like the bath or shower station. Oh yeah. Yeah. For dogs. Yeah, I've done those. It could be for cats. They’re a little less likely to cooperate. But yes, I've done a few dog showers.
Yeah, Yeah. Okay. Yeah. We just lowered the shower door itself and have a handheld so that you can actually rinse, rinse the dogs off and trap them in there at the same time. So they don’t get everywhere. Yeah. Right.
Oh it's always important. Yeah. So the pivot a bit off of the word shower here and go into plumbing when you're doing a kitchen or bathroom, how do you address plumbing issues that could occur there either maybe it's the existing plumbing and that you're working with or you have to relocate the plumbing. Mm hmm. Yeah. Relocating. We do a lot. Okay, So because we're changing space around, you know, particularly the finishes when you're getting into the plumbing, Not so much.
I mean, you can learn a lot about shopping with somebody on their plumbing just by the finishes they choose and things that they talk about. It's interesting. When I do a whole house, I'll start with plumbing because it's kind of easy and at least I get to hear what a client like leans toward, whether it's more of a contemporary faucet versus something a little bit softer, I can kind of tell where they're going with the rest of the items they're going to choose.
So but right now, I think there's so many great finishes that they're coming out with plumbing and it's like kind of like jewelry, just like hardware is on cabinets, you know, it just it it kind of adds another element. That's it, you know, really makes the kitchen shine. So I like that. But it's interesting that you would say that, though, that you might actually start with with some of plumbing like faucets and drive out from there, because I think that that would be maybe last on the list.
But you kind of use that as the motivational element for the theme in the room. And getting more information from the client. You know, just talking about a project, sometimes they don't know what to tell you. You have to kind of pull that out of them. So starting with something simpler, you can kind of hear what they're saying and, you know, it helps you with other parts of the of the project. Yeah. So staying for a moment in kitchens, what about existing appliances that are in there?
How do you take that into account or are you more often than not changing out appliances at the same time? No appliances are a challenge these days. Takes a long time to get them and if somebody has like, for instance, I'm doing a project now where they have a 48 inch subzero, I'm encouraging them to keep it and work with it because really, I mean, it's almost like 18 months now to get some appliances and it's crazy. It does dictate, you know, what you're going to do in a kitchen.
And I often tell them to go ahead and go appliance shopping and give me some input on that before we actually get started on the design, because it does it does dictate some of those things. So. What about if we break out side of that? What about existing furniture that they may want to keep in a particular space? Yeah, a lot of people have heirlooms from different family members. You know, we try to incorporate that, but also letting them know it also is going to dictate their style.
So you have to walk gently with that, but try to incorporate as best you can. And you know, most of them know whether or not it's going to fit the design or not. And they have to make that choice whether or not to use that in their space or put it somewhere else. So because we've talked a little bit here about style, if I were to ask you, what is your particular style
preference? Just straight up yours, if you could take any blank space and put it put a particular style in there, what would you lean toward? I'm I am more contemporary, not on the modern end of it, but more contemporary personally. But of course I do every style right? And you have to in this business. I also have a Western style lower level, not my preference, but my husband's. But our. Whole. That's nice of you. Yeah, well, I started there when I moved into his home.
We decided to remodel it and I told him he could do anything in the lower level, but beyond that, that was it. So he was confined to that one space. Yeah, he is confined, he loves it. And so he's happy with that. So I get the rest of the house, so it's all good. Okay, so I ask that and then I'm curious, when you're designing a space for one of your clients, how are you able to keep your own personal preferences sort of out of it and zone in on what they. Oh yeah. Oh yeah, definitely. Yeah, yeah.
I've done lots of different styles, you know, over the years. So yeah, so one of the interesting projects I did, a lady and her husband lived in Singapore and they had quite a few artifacts that they brought back from there and the whole house was around that. Not necessarily my style, but it was a great project and was fun to deal with. So yeah. So you mentioned you worked with all sorts of different designs. How many different design styles do you think you've worked with?
Is there one you haven't worked with? Maybe is an easier question. Yeah, probably that would be the easier question. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like Southwest. Yeah, yeah. There's, yeah, a number of styles. Okay, so let's do this. And if this brings us back to the barn, so be it. But can you talk about some of the most fun projects that you've worked on and what made them so enjoyable? Yeah, so I did a really great project some years ago.
It was for a house that was being built over in Ladue and the gentleman collected artifacts from all over the world. Fireplaces, architectural pieces, and he had a whole warehouse full of it and the home was quite large and so when I got hired, he took me to this warehouse and said, I want you to incorporate as many of these items as you can. Into the house. Into his new home. And it was a big home, so there was lots of space, but it was a challenge.
And, you know, I had to work with specific sizes. Of course, and just there was some fabulous pieces a marble fireplaces, columns from all over brackets and from old buildings. Anyway, so the project was great and it lasted for quite a while. And the home is gorgeous. It turned out really beautiful. Yeah, it was a great project. So it's all done? Oh yeah. Percentage wise. What do you think? You how much of his artifacts did you think you got into the home? Quite a bit.
And I think he was really impressed by how much I was able to incorporate. You know, we did things in doorways and he had a copper ceiling that I incorporated into a pool table room, like one of the old tin ceilings that he had gotten out of a particular place, doors, old doors, windows, you know, quite a few pieces of it. It was really interesting how it came out. So. I don't think I ever want to go into how he got all that back. Yeah, I know. And I'm like, Yeah, yeah.
I don't know how he got it all there, but he had quite a bit, so. Wow. Okay then. Well, let's flip it the other way. Can you talk about some of the challenges that you face and how you overcome those challenges in your design? You mean working with in what way? What challenges? It could be anything. It could be just the space in the way it's configured or what you want to do, or it's a product that gets selected. Yeah, well, I guess there's always challenges on every project.
What I like to do is, is look at a whole space for a client and instead of confining it to say, Let's do a kitchen design, many people don't look outside of the box by opening up, like taking down a wall or opening up a window or relocating a window. Something as simple as that can make all the difference in the world. And I try to share that with them and press them a little bit so that the outcome of the project can be so much better.
Sometimes you can get to people to do that type of thing at other times that they they're not open to it at all. So it just depends. Have you ever gone into a project and the client wants something done and you look at the space and like, this just can't be done.
Right? Yes, of course. Yeah. And sometimes you just have to educate them and prove to them that it show them another avenue, you know, you know, put down a different objective, a different way of looking at something and you can get them to come around. Yeah. Yeah. So here, maybe a fun question for you. Taking it from a designer standpoint, there are one or two shows on TV
or streaming. Yeah. So within the home remodeling world, as it were, how do you take first off, do you, is there any of those shows that you like or feel are realistiv enough or can even offer inspiration from with it, or do you just find them to be more of a nuisance within your profession? Oh, I think they're they're all great because it does teach people what a designer actually does. I think many people just think that you choose, you know, you choose furniture
and you put it in. The space planning part of it is really what we're all about. And I think those shows have taught people that that's what a designer actually does, looks at your space and reworks your space. So that part's good. The down part of it is that they looks like in one episode in one sitting, you can have your whole job done. And I mean. That's not realistic? It's not realistic.
The other part that is sort of irritating as well is all of the programs they use to convey the projects, like all of the 3D elements. I mean, those are all great, but they cost lots of money, so they are not all realistic for somebody like myself to have access to. You know, we have a little access to some of that, but not like they portray in some of the shows. Yeah, fair enough. So you sit down and you agree on your vision with the homeowner. How hard is it to set a realistic.
I put the emphasis on that realistic budget with them. Yeah. Do you find that they even know what the budget should be? No. Wow. That's. That's pretty much what it is. They don't know what the budget should be because they're not aware. But what I always look at is, first of all, where's the home? What price point are we in? You don't want to overprice your project because you're never going to get it back. We talk a little bit about that. Some of them have an idea in their head.
Most of the time they don't, so they just want to go through the process and say, okay, this is what I'm looking for. Tell me how much that's going to be. You know, and unfortunately, I think throughout the years, things have gotten so expensive, like a project, maybe even three or four years ago, you know, it's elevated so much and people in their heads may have looked at a project maybe three or four years ago. And now what they're seeing
is it's increased so much more. But thank God they're still out there doing them and it's all good. So I was going to ask you about that, about the changes. It's not just having done this for 30 years, but with ProSource. But just the last few years. Oh, things have changed. It's changed a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Supply chain has just been horrendous for this business. It's been really tough. It's getting better, but it's still not completely there. So. But yeah, it's been a challenge.
As a designer, how much do you pay attention to trends that come out and everyone you know, every paint company comes out with their color of the year and some of them are very neutral and others are just wild, right? And so how much do you look at trends and either you or the homeowner want to incorporate those into your designs? Well, thank God they have trends because otherwise we would not be doing what we're doing.
So that's all good. But the trends, yeah, what I encourage my clients to do is don't pay attention to them because there's always going to be something new. So do what they feel like that's best for them. Use their color palettes. Like when we went through all the whole white kitchen and everything being gray, I encouraged my clients, don't do that. Do what, those, you know, your colors and your finishes make you happy.
Not not something that's just so trendy, you know, because it do it for yourself. People are in a worry about resale unless somebody is only fixing it up for resale. That's the only time I suggest that they look at it that way. Otherwise, if they're staying there and they're doing a project, do it for themselves. Yeah. Yeah. So let's just flip it maybe to your own world here in the projects that you do, do you see sort of trends or themes developing within the projects that you do?
Do you see a lot of that, a lot of similar things happening? Yes and no. You know, I think in the Midwest, we all people have a tendency to be more traditional, not so contemporary, but I think the shows that are on TV have inspired lots of people to, you know, reach out into other things. When I go to market for furniture, you know, it's a coastal thing. You'll see trends hit on the on the coastlines much sooner and then it comes back to here.
But for the most part, I think, you know, if people are hiring somebody like me, they're already interested in design, so they've already educated themselves to some aspect of that. And so they're they're already aware of, you know, what trends are coming or what they're interested in anyway. So you touched on it a little bit earlier too, circling back to it.
Do you see a lot of technology fitting into your designs, like one of the one popular one that we see out there a lot is Alexa is making her way throughout the house. Oh yeah. In a lot of especially into kitchens and bathrooms. Are you starting to see that come forth in your designs? Yeah, you do see that sometimes it's just, you know, mainly toward one one room. But yeah, somewhat a lot of my clients think technology is it's too much into space and it changes so quickly.
And what we've seen, you know, just for instance with TVs over time that industry changes so drastically from even year to year that they're not they don't want to get caught up into that and limit themselves. So I don't know if I've answered your question well enough, but yeah. Good enough. I’ll accept it. Okay. All right.
So last question for you here as a designer, and it's a little bit touching on budget as well, how do you overcome the perception that some homeowners may have of saying, A. I don't need a designer, I just do this on my own and work with a contractor to get it done, or they look at it and say, I might want to designer, but I can't afford that. Right? That because that's just going to add to the cost of the project. You think it's just going to go up exponentially.
How do you overcome that perception? That's easy. Okay, so. I'm glad I could ask you an easy question. Yeah. So so first of all, when a client does call me, I'm honored that they do. But when I go out to meet with them, basically it's just for us to get to know each other.
And I tell them that in the beginning, it's it's more about, can you work with this person and can we collaborate together and get to some design to make them feel more comfortable with that, either like charge an hourly fee or give them a flat fee And some of the flat fees. I'm seeing more and more of that, especially if somebody has never worked with the designer before. They want to know what that what that outcome is going to be as far as dollar amounts.
And so I'll tell them, okay, that this includes this service and give them a flat fee. They feel comfortable. It's then they don't feel bad about calling me or inviting me to come out or shopping with them or whatever part of the project is because they know there's a set dollar amount and that helps them. And I think once they get started, then they're ready to go on another project. So it's it's easy once we get, get, get in there and get some comfort zone for them.
Do you feel it's fair, say, even if it's not perceived that way, that using a designer can actually save you money in some ways? Oh yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, I don't necessarily say that to them because I'd rather them know that by when they get into the project, they're then they start realizing how much it does save them and how much time it saves them as well. Yeah, Well, thank you for joining us here today and sharing your thoughts. Appreciate that. Ellen Kurtz, everyone.
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