Hello, this is The ProSource Podcast. I'm Kevin Devine, Director of Digital Marketing Content for ProSource Wholesale. In this series we’ll focus on home remodeling, especially kitchens and bathrooms. You'll hear from those in the know, including our corporate merchandizers showroom team members and the trade professionals who ultimately make it happen. We're glad you've joined us. Enjoy. In today's episode of The ProSource Podcast, we're joined by Charlie O’Hearn of Heritage Remodeling.
Charlie, thanks for joining us here today. Thanks. So we're going to start a real simple question for you. Just tell us who you are and what you do. So I'm Charlie O'Hearn. I own Heritage Remodeling. We do somewhat high end kitchen and bath remodels. Basements. But predominantly kitchen and baths, is our main business. Okay. How long you've been working in the industry? In the construction industry, 14 years or so.
I started out working for a roofing, siding, gutter company, and I would do their interior work if it was needed and that was mainly repair stuff. And then that kind of built into bigger and bigger projects to the point that, you know, I became having subcontractors and things like that. Okay. Well, what what inspired you to become a contractor? I probably growing up, my dad owned a had a cabinet shop that he built cabinets out of our basement for as long as I can remember.
He built that into a large commercial cabinet company that did store fixtures and things like that. So I've always been around carpentry specifically. And then basically out of high school, I decided I wanted to go in a different realm and I worked on cars for years. And then as soon as we bought a house, I realized there's things I can do at the house that you know, that people would pay me to do and became kind of my own thing.
Okay. Is I'm kind of curious because I refer to you as a contractor, but is there a way you like to label yourself more as a contractor? Remodeler or? Contractor as a title is fine. What we do is remodeling because that gets you can have contractors that build new homes. You can have contractors that do exterior work, flat work. There's all kinds of, you know, different types of contractors. But specifically we do remodeling. So remodeling contractor, I guess would be proper.
So no new construction? No new construction. Okay. Do you focus more on the residential side versus commercial or both? We're probably 98% residential. We've done a few. Church kitchens, church bathrooms. That's probably about as commercial as we get. But again, 98% residential. Okay. And you kind of mentioned, I think I know the answer to this question based on what you said earlier, but are you a one man show or do you have a crew that you work alongside? I started as a one man show.
I did everything from plumbing to electric to any of the carpentry stuff, drywall, painting. And then it turned out as I got busier and busier and busier and also built relationships with other contractors in specific trades that now I'm more of a general contractor, so I sub almost all the work I do, some of the carpentry, still cabinets and stuff like that, but mostly subs.
When you say that subs are they, do they work exclusively for you or is it on an as needed basis and do you stick pretty much with the same crews when you need them? So I stick with the same crews, but they are their own business entities. They have their own insurance, their own licensing, if it's required. Plumbers and electricians are required to have licensing in the county. So they are their own individual businesses. I do try to use the same contractors now.
I have like more than one painter. I have more than one electrician. So it depends on who's available at any given time. But they are their own entities. Is it often availability or is it also sometimes like like a skill set? Meaning, if you're doing one particular type of design, say a more vintage design versus a more modern design, does that influence who you might use from a crew perspective? It influences painters.
In my, my, my opinion, it influences painters, carpenters and like the tile guys specifically, like in bathroom's because certain patterns are more difficult or certain certain specific tile material is more difficult to work with. And so if we want a very specific look, yes, I will call a specific tile contractor over another one. That's just a simple square lay or something on a floor. And then the same thing with carpentry.
The detail of the moldings and and things, you know, if it's super specialty stuff, then, yeah, we're going to use different contractors for different projects. Okay. So you mentioned you seem to focus more in kitchens and bathrooms. What would you say is the percentage breakdown of projects that you do that are those two rooms versus other rooms? It's easily 75% of our work is kitchens and baths. And out of that probably way more than half is bathrooms.
We do more bathrooms, it seems like, than anything. And that's not by design. That's simply by need. Okay. People coming to you and saying that's what I want to correct. Correct. Because you hear that those are the well, everyone says kitchens are bathrooms are what sell a home. And those are so frequently used. Certainly that's where remodels tend to happen
quite often. Sure. And they're also, in my opinion, where you need more specialty because you're going to you're almost always going to get into plumbing. You're almost always going to get into electrical of some kind. You're almost always going to have to like waterproof, a shower and stuff like that. So even if you've got like a basement room out of where you're putting tile and they don't have to worry about waterproofing, they don't have to worry about drain setups and stuff like that.
You're not typically moving plumbing or electric for a basic, you know, basement redo. So. So it's more specialty. So I think that's why it leads to having a contractor do it versus a DIY or a lower level contractor, for lack of a better word. Do you ever find yourself when you talk about remodels, you mainly come into a room that hasn't been touched, or have you?
Do you find yourself frequently walking to room that maybe they try to DIY, even if it's just for the removal aspect of it and you're like, okay, this is fun? Most of the time our stuff is never been touched by the homeowner anyway. We get into a lot of touched by other contractors in the past and so we uncover things that become problematic or or unexpected. I do particularly have one homeowner that likes to start to demo things, then realizes he can't
and then calls us anyway. So. So even though he's used you a lot, he still. He still like. Tries it on. To try to get his hands dirty. Yeah. We're starting a project soon for him and he's already said he could do the demo. And then we both laughed and moved on. Hasn’t been quite successful for him? No. No. But if you try, try again. Maybe eventually. Right? Right. So you mentioned someone as you come in behind other contractors, maybe we've done working.
You find some things that that are sort of sort of hidden. How often does that happen? You see it a lot. I'll put it this way. You see the lot on the TV shows where they're like, Oh, wow, We didn't see that behind the walls. Everybody's stunned. At what happens every time. How often do you run into that of the didn't see that coming event? Honestly, it depends on the level of house. So I would say half the houses we work on are probably older than 1960. And so the stuff we find in
those is very, very. Old, contractor issues. And sometimes it's not so much that what they did was wrong at the time they did it, but by now, today's standards and code, it's a different deal. So we have to fix that kind of stuff. In houses newer than, say, late seventies, that's when we get into, oh, Billy Bob decided he was going to put in his own dishwasher or bathtub or something like that. And it's a more just wasn't quite done right or was done at a DIY level.
And then we have to come in and fix things. So it just kind of how we find it and what we find depends on the age of the house more than anything, it seems like. So in those older homes and you're trying to bring them current to the current code, do you run into challenges with just the configuration of the room and trying to meet the current code? Yes. So it's code within reason. Code is fairly easy to update to.
It depends on how far are you going with the remodel because like right now we have a bathroom that we're demolishing. It's in a house probably built in the thirties. Give or take. And so we're going to we're going to relocate a toilet six feet or something like that by code. The venting needs venting is not required to be changed. Therefore, all the cast iron work and stuff that's in there, we don't have to manipulate unless it's actually bad.
But if it was built new from scratch, we would have to change the way that was done. And so again, it depends on how far you go with some of this stuff and how extreme it gets as to how much we have to change for code. But we always update, you know, outlets, switches, you know, anything electrical has got to be up to code GFCI or arc fault if needed. And then shut offs and the new drain standards for tubs versus showers and things like that.
So all that stuff a hammer arrestors and things like that are all modern stuff that gets added to everything we do because it's necessary. So. So you've mentioned a lot of things that you run into electrical, plumbing and there's flooring and there's all the different kitchen and bath products. Is there anything that's outside of your skill set or anything that just spooks you when you go into a project?
We've been doing this long enough and we're so used to working in the in that in that range of, again, 30s to 50s houses, we kind of know what to expect. So none of it bothers me a whole lot other than I hate dealing with plaster if we don't have to. So as long as plaster is in good shape, that's the one thing, is doing real plaster work. We have a job we're starting today literally to kind of re-skim a ceiling.
And that's no problem being plaster, but the crown molding in the room is actually plaster crown molding. So we're we have to be very delicate around the edges to make sure we don't damage that, because that's a very, very particular trade that nobody does anymore where they actually make these plaster moldings and stuff. And so the homeowner is aware that it's a possibility if we have an issue with that, that that we may have to call in somebody else.
But short of that, that's the biggest thing that scares me. My plumber is good. That's probably what it used to be. A fear is is plumbing. But my plumber so good that we don't we don't really run anything he can't handle. Just because of the condition of pipes where they're located. Yeah. And his ability to fix about anything we need to fix. You know, he's seen, he's. He's an older gentleman, so he's seen everything, you know, and worked in about everything.
So there's nothing that if it surprises him, then I get worried. Okay, so. If he goes, I don't know what. What's going on, then I'm worried. Does that happen often? No. It hasn't happened yet. Knock on thing. I'm glad I brought it up. Yeah. And levy the curse on you. So ProSource Wholesale is a business that caters to trade professionals and their homeowner or commercial clients. How long have you been a member of ProSource?
At least since 2009. I should probably remember the exact date, but at least 2009. So, you know, 14 years, I guess that's been so quite, quite a while. I don't know. I honestly don't know how long they've been around, but. ‘91. 1991. Okay, Yeah. Not that long. So yeah, so 2009. Okay. What, what made you join? At the time we were doing more entry level bathrooms and stuff and I needed a supplier for specifically shower, shower, stall stuff. There's a product called Onyx that they carry.
And so that's a good, you know, entry level product that's better than what you can buy off the shelf at Home Depot or Lowe's, but not super expensive and not full tile, you know, custom shower. And so that that initially was you guys were a supplier for them specifically, you know, and so that was kind of what got my foot in the door, I guess so to speak. So what keeps you a member? Being, able to send customers in and see everything in one spot.
Confidence in who's going to help them regardless if it's actually my sales rep, if they're available, or another sales rep and then familiar familiarity because I've been with you guys so long with what products you carry and you know, even the, for lack of a better word, the junky product you guys carry is still better than much. You're going to go buy elsewhere and still competitive on price. Okay. So I'm trying to do this in my head.
2009, I think right around in there is when ProSource started expanding outside of floor, covering into the kitchen and bath realm. Sure. So did you find that advantageous to when you came on board? Yes. So I don't remember how much of a plumbing department you guys had, But I do remember, again, you guys maybe not on display, but the availability of product for kitchen and bath was there. It just may not have been as you couldn't walk in and see it necessarily.
But when you asked it was available. Showroom still needed to expand a bit. Yeah, we helped with that expansion. Oh, look at that. Yeah. Yeah. So. But yeah, the showroom still needed to expand, but the products were still available there. But I mean, it's it's increased exponentially relative to what it was back then where, where you can go in and see a lot of Kohler's line of product or Moen's line of product right in the in the showroom.
And then having displays where you can get a get an idea of, okay, this is, this is, you know, cabinetry layout or this is, you know, different materials and how they look together. You know, in combination. So. Okay, so you may have already answered this, but I'll ask the question anyway because it was next on my list. So what are some of the benefits of working with ProSource as a as a trade professional. Confidence in availability of product.
If you guys say it's going to be here in two or three weeks or whatever it may be, the timeline so much doesn't matter because we plan around that, but the accuracy of that timeline of products. So that's a big thing that we've run into at other suppliers that is not accurate all the time or even close to accurate. The kitchen and bath design aspect not just having a sales rep there that's going to go, yeah, this looks good with this.
But someone who can go who can who can meld the combination of, you know, countertops in a bathroom specifically countertops, cabinets, fixtures to have a style there and give a visual representation of of of what's going on. That's that's probably the biggest thing the two biggest things for me. Okay. You mentioned other suppliers. You don't go to other suppliers, do you? We don't frequent other suppliers very often. There’s the plug. Yeah, that's all I ask for, man. Just a little love.
So let's let's flip the other way. Let's step outside of the showroom here for a moment. What, especially within the realm of kitchens and bathrooms, because you've done so many projects there, what changes have you seen with with remodeling projects in kitchens and bathrooms over the years? It depends on what perspective you look at it from.
But there's there's been all kinds of change, in my opinion, in design since I've started, you know, larger format tiles versus small format tiles, kind of when I started like 10x10 or 12x12 or maybe a 15x15 was about the biggest how you see now there's we installed 24x48 tiles in a bathroom. You know it's that that that format has changed.
Cabinetry is is now trending more towards inlay, inset drawers and doors and things like that technology and fixtures kitchens with touch faucets or motion sense faucets, things like that. And Kohler has a a line of digital stuff that's kind of really slick. We don't put a lot of it in, but it's I mean, it's a total change in how that's how the interface, the user interface is. So that's one aspect.
But then from an installation standpoint, products from Schluter or Kurdi, where it's waterproofing for showers or prefabricated pans that we can customize to do tile and stuff like that, that's the big thing I, I focus on because it speeds up our, the timeline of us doing stuff makes things more reliable. We don't worry about leaks things like that.
Underlayment for floors have come a long way, used to kind of just be concrete board, and now we've got underlayment with crack isolation and stuff, which we're way more confident, especially in old houses, where things shift and settle really, really makes us confident that we're not going to have grout popping out or things like that in ten years versus the old products. So a big change in installation products.
Because of what you mentioned there with a lot of the large format tiles and planks that exist now, how much has that changed your installation approach? So up to a certain size, just tile, specifically up to a certain size, it's not that much different. You 12x24, you know, we're going to use clips on that installation to help help keep everything flat and level. And that's that's an amazing thing. It adds a little bit of cost to the job.
But for the ability to not worry as much about having a nice, perfectly flat floor when you get into like 24x48, that's a different deal. It's different different cutters used for the tiles and you would think it goes faster, but it doesn't because it covers so much more surface area with one drop of a tile, but you're putting so much more mortar down and and back buttering everything.
It's it's no faster, but it's a little different in the tools you need to use to install it and things like that. Okay. Has anyone I don't know why I'm having this thought, but has anyone ever maybe in a smaller powder room decided to go with just one big slab for the floor? We have not done that. I've heard of that being done. Really? Okay. Yeah, I've heard of that being done with stone. Just because as we were talking about the larger format, I started thinking I'm like,
Well could you? And I bet you could. You could, you could. It would get into that stone has to be cut as one big chunk. You would might get into a weight depending on how big it is, you might get into a weight thing or you need to, you know, restructure slightly underneath. That just kind of depends on size of the room. But navigating into the space would probably be fun. Oh, yeah, Yeah. But it would definitely be a smaller powder room. I can't imagine a large room now.
I don't think I'm going to see that in a kitchen any time soon. Yeah, sure. So when you're working on a kitchen or bathroom remodel, how much influence do you have specifically on the products that are being selected? I usually get asked, What do you see a lot being used and what has the best long term durability? You know, what do you have problems with right after install or a couple of years after installing it? That's usually the biggest thing I get.
And so I will usually tell people we have had good luck with “X” brand and try to steer people into a brand and it's more from a reliability thing. I try not to affect people's design decisions because if you get into that and then it's what you said to do that, you know, you suggested this look. And so I will get an idea of what people want and I don't mind steering them away from what I think, isn't that look. But I never try to force what is necessarily.
So do you tend to go into the showroom with them when they for product selection, Do you leave it to the account manager to work with them or is it a collaboration of all of you? It depends on the it's honestly it's job to job. I have some homeowners that literally know exactly what they want. And there's not not there's no need for me to steer one way or the other.
And in cases like that, usually I'll call up and say, hey, here's the customer, here's what they're looking at specifically, here's what they can't do based on whatever it may be, layout or or, you know, the configuration of showerheads or something like that. I'll see what they absolutely can't do and just give that to the sales rep and then they can kind of direct from there.
But then I have some people that have no clue and it's helpful for me to be here just to go, okay, stay away from this because it's not what we discuss in about, you know, it's more just kind of steering as opposed to telling them what to get. And then the designers are who I rely on for what is what's just totally a trend that's not going to last or outdated. And it's not that a customer can't do outdated.
We're just going to let them know this is either outdated or it's going to be outdated soon for resale purposes or whatever it may be. So unless you want to stick around for ten, 20 years, everything's retro. Maybe it will come back around. Well, and I always ask homeowners, I said, How long are you gonna stay in the house? You know? So how long are you going to stay in the house? Number one for trends. But are you going to be the only person staring at it forever? Then get whatever you want.
You know, if you want purple floors, get purple floors. If that's what you want, you're going to be here forever. But if you think you're going to sell in four or five years, you may not want to do those purple floors. And here's. Why. Right. So we kind of touched on here how much you pay attention to both advancements with products and the trends that occur out the industry and allowing those to factor in any type of product recommendations.
I really lean I do try to keep an eye on product advancements to like installation products and things like that that are what I what I would call construction materials stuff. Nobody sees but affects the outcome of it. So I tend to really try to keep up with that stuff. On the, the design or style side, I kind of know what's out there because I'm in here enough or I'm, you know, have customers showing me new things that they see or whatever.
So I feel like I'm a little up on that stuff, but I'm probably not as up to date as I need to be. But I also trust again, that's part of the reason I'm using you guys or designers, is is there. They are the ones that are kept up on that and they know the latest and greatest. And so what's available and what cost is and stuff like that, how it applies. Okay, so like every paint company loves to come out with their color of the year and sometimes it's a nice color, very common, very neutral.
Maybe in other times it is blinding in its approach. Do you find sometimes homeowners come around and say, this is the type of color I want in my room because this is the trending color? Does that play into a into design much? It can. I mean, everything has to tie together. I was just talking to a homeowner yesterday about how everything is like a Tetris puzzle of pieces. And so. Bringing a Tetris reference there nice. There.
Yeah. So, so you know, the color of your wall can determine cabinet color or stain can determine countertop tile or it should any way. It should have an effect on what you're doing. And it's not always that it has to be matchy matchy, but it kind of all needs to go together and have a flow to everything. And so, yeah, I mean, sometimes I have customers come to me and go, Oh, this is the paint color I want, and you have to build around the paint color.
Or they may say, This is the tile I like, and you have to build around that tile or you know, the, you know, But I try to get people to pick one thing because once you have one thing, it eliminates a lot of other other selections that that don't go, if that makes sense. Yeah. So let's actually talk about that. Is there something that's an interesting take in either bathroom or kitchen? We could talk about both.
We could split it up. Sure. Is there a particular product that you look at and say, okay, let's choose this, I'll just randomly throw it out so you understand what I'm saying? We look at a bathroom, you say, choose your vanity and we'll base everything else, kind of either that style or that color in the kitchen. It might be choose your cabinets and then based off that color, that's how that'll help us guide to the other. Is there one that you tend to lean toward to drive something?
If they're doing an entire room? Obviously, usually. Usually I'll base it on surface area. So you know, in a kitchen, typically your countertops are a lot of surface area. Your floor. Obviously it can be a lot of surface area. But if it's broken up with an island, you actually see less floor sometimes than you do counter and cabinets are a big factor in there. But there's also so many options for cabinet colors. I think that's actually an easier selection, if that makes sense.
Okay. So usually I start with countertops in a kitchen, in a bathroom. Usually it's predominantly tile, you know, tile on the floor, tile in whatever your shower is. And so usually I tell people to kind of start there. But again, it depends. We've done some bathrooms where we actually almost had more counter space than floor space, you know, in weird situations. And so it's a little bit playing it by ear
and then walls factor in. I mean, if you have a lot of painted wall surface area in a bathroom, sometimes that becomes a huge factor in in where you're going to start with your selection. Because of the color tone that's already there. Correct? Correct. Yeah. All right. So what are some of the important ways that communication factors in to a home remodeling project and ensures that it is successful? I probably I would think my homeowners would say I over communicate. Not a bad thing.
No, I would much rather somebody have way too much information and understand exactly what's going on. Then I would not have enough information and and either be worried about something or just uninformed, you know, uninformed, you know, thinking that they're not involved almost. So it helps to make the homeowners feel involved. Besides writing a check, you know, besides picking your product, and then all of a sudden your job's done, write me checks and then you have a bathroom.
And I have some homeowners that want to be that way. And that's perfectly fine. But I feel like if they understand, okay, in the next week, we're going to come in and all your roof and plumbing gets done. And so this is going to happen and this is going to happen. This is going to happen. And I don't tell them all the details, but they have a rough idea of what's going on and they know the plumber showing up.
Then they feel like, okay, I understand this week anyway, and then the next week maybe it's electrical or framing or drywall or whatever it may be. And so keeping keeping people informed on on that and maybe even why we do certain things. You know, why why do we have these hammer arrestors in the walls and oh, it's because your, your pipes bang and your water pressure is uneven. And then they go, oh well yeah, we've had that the whole time. Well you won't have it now, you know.
So having a homeowner be informed also keeps me from getting weird phone calls sometimes of, Hey, hey, we've got this weird, weird pipe sticking up out of the floor and we don't. What's that for? Is it going to go away or, you know, whatever. So they're fairly informed enough to understand what we're doing. Does the weird pipe go away? The weird pipe goes away 99% of the time. It's like, okay, so you've also got other people that get involved in this. So how do you rein it all in?
You've got you and the homeowner, but you've got your crew in here at the showroom, you've got the account manager and possibly a kitchen and bath designer. How do you go about making sure that everyone's aware of what's going on? Do you find yourself being the centerpiece. Of all that? I am the ringleader, so to speak. Whether that whether that show is good or bad at all depends on me. So that is the main thing that homeowners are paying me for is coordination.
Yes, I very well may do some of the work, but the main thing you're paying me for is to coordinate that the quantities for the tile are correct to get them ordered to be on time for, you know, when we need to install that and that permits are pulled and you know, inspections are happening and you know, I'm usually delivering dump trailers or dropping a trailer full of material off or whatever it may be.
And so that whole coordination and then also to a degree, I hate to use the word babysitting a homeowner, but it's it's making sure the homeowner feels comfortable with what's going on. And and and again, part of that is them being informed and part of that is just passing along, you know, passing on any information from updates on materials and things like that. So how beneficial is the showroom with illustrating that project to the to the homeowner on a more concrete level.
Being it since the expansion of the kitchen, a bath section, you know, you can walk in and show somebody, okay, you know, you've got vanity countertop shower and kind of go, okay, this floor has to be in before these cabinets go in. These cabinets have to be in for the countertops, get templated to go in or the stone for the shower.
I don't know if that answers your question, but it's it's an example of what a finished product looks like, that I can break down backwards and say this is this is the order of operations for things. And they can see it firsthand. Okay. So I kind of mentioned it earlier, so they'll swing back to it. I've mentioned the kitchen and bath designer in the showroom. Do you make much use of that service here at the showroom? Yeah. Yeah.
I have a specific designer that I like to work with because we've worked together now probably for ten years. So if I call in and say I usually send a preliminary drawing that just says, You've got this much room for cabinets, this is rough location in the room, close to a window, whatever it may be. If I say I want, I want fillers on the left side or whatever. She knows what I mean. What I need for installation purposes, not just here's your cabinets, but here's the cleat I need for crown.
She already knows what I want. She already knows, you know, filler wise or toe kick wise are also capability wise because different coming from a background of cabinets, I have no problem modifying a cabinet to fit what we need to a degree. And so she knows what I can and can't do. Therefore, there's certain things she knows she can design for me that we can accomplish, that maybe another contractor can't. So because of the relationship you've built. Because of the relationship.
Right now, so now you've got that sort of sometimes an unspoken communication that you're just in that mind meld right between the two of you. Yeah. And we double, you know, we always I'll get a drawing back and I'll double check and go, Yeah, this is on there, this is on there, this is on there. But yeah, it's, it works well. So my next question is a little bit longer. I'm going to look down and read it. Sure. You could take a drink if you want to go through all this.
In the beginning, no. So many homeowners don't fully know how much a remodel project can cost. We should probably say maybe most don't know. They think they have an idea, but they probably don't really. How do you go about setting up a realistic budget with them and then along with that, what? And so I'd look two questions in one here. And then what are some of the common obstacles you use to navigate and move forward with the project? With any challenges you may have there on the budget front.
So the first is just how do you make sure the budget is realistic? Sure. So I'll preface this slightly. Most of my customers budget is a factor, but I'm blessed that it's usually not actually the overriding thing. They have a number, but it's it's usually pretty realistic and it's it's better scale than most. So anyway, so we start with that, but I usually don't even ask them a money number walking in. I just say, you know, what would you like to do?
You know, if it was your dream project and you do anything you want to, what do you want to do? And so they lay that out and I go, okay, this is what it takes to accomplish that. And I go through the technical aspect of, okay, if the toilet moves, this moves, this plumbing has got to be rearranged. You know, if your basement is finished, then that means we're possibly cutting a ceiling out down there to access things or whatever it may be, or go going through a roof with a new vent.
And then I will usually try to give a rough number. You know, just just an idea of, okay, this is “x” grand. And, you know, they go that's that's within budget. Great. Then that's what we do. If that's not in budget, then I go now what if we then I start going to alternates of, okay, if you don't move the toilet all the way across the room and we put it here instead, it saves you “X” dollars and then we start working backwards from that step.
Material choice does come in, but there's a lot of ways to manipulate materials to still get a look That's not you may not be exactly what they wanted, but I can get them close in a lower cost material. So usually layout is the most important thing, say in a kitchen or bath kitchens or bathrooms, especially because we're usually moving things. Kitchens don't don't manipulate
as much typically. But so we start with layout and then we move to product too, to back off product potentially or change product on the cost. That's the first part, right? That's good enough. So then it was what are some of the common obstacles? Do you have that help you navigate that whole process? How do you how do you recognize them? How do you overcome them?
Yeah, the overcoming typically, as the homeowner has to accept that that that that something has to change in order to make the costs come down. So again, whether that's layout, whether that's material choices, sometimes I tell homeowners if that's really what you want, just wait and save. You know what I mean? There's nothing wrong with if it takes if it's three more months down the road, but you're going to be in the house forever and you want to be your dream bathroom.
Just save the difference and do exactly what you want. Because it's something else you mentioned there. You said you're often you're more often moving things in a bathroom than in the kitchen. So I was trying to do this in my head and let's see if I guess correctly, you're in a kitchen, you might have an island, you have appliances. Does that sort of fact factor into why there's less movement there versus a bathroom where maybe you can move the plumbing in one direction or another?
When I say movement, it's it's the amount of work it takes to move, say, a toilet drain that's four inches in diameter. You know, it has to go through floor joists a certain direction. But I have a I have a code that says I can only drill a hole in the center that. joist Less than a third of the size. And there's a lot more to. You're moving a water you know, a water lot for a toilet. You remove a waterline and a supply and a drain, you know, for for sinks.
You're moving two supplies and a drain for showers. You're moving again, multiple supplies and a drain. And so there's there's just a lot more to moving that versus in a kitchen you have a sink which has those three factors. But your appliances are typically a supply line and a drain line. That's going to run back to the sink or a supply line for a refrigerator that runs through a pipe underneath. So it's a whole lot simpler process.
And also to you may move we may move more electric in a kitchen typically than in a bathroom. But typically electric is easier to move than plumbing. And so I guess that's what it comes down to is the amount of the amount of plumbing and how far you have to go with it is typically more in a bathroom. So I had another thought hit me here.
You just keep saying these things and the questions just pop in my head as we talk about budget, how much has budget has the budget changed over the past few years? As we've come out of the pandemic? There's been a lot of price movement, a lot of a lot of supply chain challenges. How much has budget, from your perspective, changed with your those projects versus what it was? I actually just rebid. I had a project that I did for a customer in mid 2019.
They called me last week to say they wanted to go ahead and execute that project. So just four years later. I'm going to ask, is that normal? No, no, typically not that far. And actually it may have been 20. Either way. Either way, it's been to, you know, three years, but I had to rework his bid. And so it probably went up 20%, give or take. And so that's mainly in construction materials and finished materials. Just materials went all over the place.
I do pay, you know, more in labor, but it's not due to the pandemic. It's simply because prices, you know, slowly prices increase for labor. But that was negligible. But materials definitely and mid-pandemic materials were insane. Then I'd be charging 40% more for certain for certain items, but it's leveled back out to where, you know, I would say roughly 20% difference, give or take. And it depends on the product.
Certain things kind of went back to what they were and certain things never are still crazy. So now this one I'm curious as I look at your face, how you may react to this one. There are a plethora of home remodeling shows out there across the networks and streaming, etc. and I'm sure there's probably a ton of YouTube videos too, doing the whole thing. How do you react to all of that? The vast... looks like you're trying to find a politically correct answer. Politically correct.
Yeah. The vast majority of those shows, as far as timeline process budgets are either. None of them are, in my opinion. Nearly none of them are accurate. Typically, timelines are like, Oh, we'll have done in a week, and it's like, not a chance. You know, we can't we can't get stone for a bathroom in a week. You know, if it's if it's templated and you'll see them on the show where they template one day and they installed the next day, I'm like that just impossible anyway.
But so yeah, timelines are completely out of whack. It typically seems like budgets are out of whack. And I do understand these shows make money on that. So there are sponsors that pay for products, so that lowers the cost, but they don't explain that. They don't say, well, we got materials for free. So the labor was this much and so or that or that. We had 30 contractors working on this project literally 24 hours a day. So we got it done in a week.
But it's it's three months of work for a handful of contractors to do so. I do understand why it looks like that, but they don't explain that. So I get some homeowners that do have a a disproportionate view of how long it should or shouldn't take based on that. But but I do think they sometimes can be beneficial from a design perspective because they usually do the more extreme.
Usually they're using the latest greatest and the more extreme styles and trends and things like that, which can be good. I don't know that I would always do exactly what they do, but we can pull pieces of that, you know, from a style perspective or a design perspective, which again, I don't try to get into a whole lot.
And there is there I remember from a couple of years ago, there was a show that was very accurate on budget, very accurate on work, but that's what they were more focused on than the shock and awe of doing a job in a week. Anyway, there there, there was one. I don't know if I can name it on the air if it matters, but but the whole Mike Holmes back, back, back five, ten years ago, that show was actually accurate.
I mean, when he you know, he used to say that basically roughly 50% of your job should roughly be materials and 50% is labor. That's not way off. You may have the overall cost is still about same. You may have a little more, the ratio may be a little off. But that was realistic and all his timelines were realistic. So they could be dramatic on, ooh, this is wrong and it maybe it really was wrong.
But but again, everything on that show did seem to actually be accurate, but they weren't concerned with getting it done in a week and they weren't concerned with it being, you know, the latest and greatest necessarily just done well. So so I'm curious, what if they approached you to do a show? Would you? I don't have the personality. For TV. Show. I'm not dramatic enough anything on TV nowadays.
You have to be like, you got to have, my gosh, we're going to lose the shop because we can't get this done or whatever. And so I'm not dramatic enough. Like I said, my favorite is when they have the big they are working on it and suddenly they discover something behind the walls. It wasn't there. And every week that happens and yet they're still stunned when it happens. Right. And yes, you would have to pull out the drama to make that work. Yeah, I'm not dramatic enough.
Not for, you know. Okay. So with all that content that's out there and we touched on this a little bit earlier, a lot of homeowners are probably going to think, hey, I could do this on my own or at least some portion of this on my own. Do you find that factoring in you mentioned some that like the one homeowner who is, no matter what you tell him, is going to try to do the removal part anyway on his own? Right. Do you find that being influence out there? Not not terribly often.
But I also a lot of my homeowners are repeat customers, so I kind of get to know them well enough that that I know what their skillset is and what it isn't. And so there are times when we may be doing a like, say, a big basement or remodel something. And if they just want to save a little bit in one aspect of it, I can go, you know, you're doing LVT flooring and it's pretty easy to install and you're perfectly skilled enough to do that.
And I have no problem saying if you want to install the following, this is a way you can save some money, you know, But I'm probably not going to tell somebody do your own plumbing or do your own electric. But there's certain things that I have a handful of customers that they can they're fully capable of doing certain aspects of the job that I did that doesn't, in the end affect me.
You know, if somebody puts their flooring in wrong or has a slight issue with it, that doesn't change whether or not I'm going to pass an inspection typically or something like that. And so I'm not above doing that, but it's it's few and far between. Okay. Do you find find yourself with some of these projects? Let's look at flooring specifically here. Do you find yourself using one particular product category more than others?
In other words, are you doing more tile or more LVT since you're doing kitchens and bathrooms, so much. I did typically, you know, bathrooms are I don't know. It's almost all the time is, is, you know, porcelain, ceramic or natural stone tile. We do have a bathroom in a basement. It's like a, you know, a third bathroom. In the scheme of things, we're going to do an LVT a luxury vinyl tile that's a glue down and grout. Still very nice tile, but at lower cost, lower installation cost.
But it's again it's a third bathroom in the house, you know, as far as use level goes. So that works out well we do we have two basement remodels going on right now. So we're doing a lot of LVP in those the vinyl plank. But like kitchens, it's usually either hardwood or tile. Nowadays it's trending towards hardwood. It seems like. But we do, you know, it depends. It's product, it's a project dependent, but, you know, tile, hardwood and, you know, vinyl products.
Do you find with all the waterproof technology that is going out there, waterproof carries across all the different product categories. Do you find that being a factor in product decisions? Yeah, definitely. Especially like basements where, you know, obviously if the basement floods, we're replacing the floor just for mold issues.
But minor spills or you've got a wet bar area down there or something like that, or even in bathrooms where again, it's, you know, we're typically not going to do it in a master bathroom, but a secondary bathroom, a kids bathroom, a basement bathroom, you know, vinyl plank or vinyl tile is is a great option for the waterproof, you know, for just random water issues. So, yeah. I had another thought and just it just escaped me, as you were saying. That's I'll probably think of it later.
But the one thing I did consider as were talking about the product categories, I'm guessing you don't do a whole lot with carpet and I only say that because of the kitchens, the bathrooms realm of it, but certainly with other rooms. Well. For whatever reason, I don't do a lot of like whole room carpets. We do a ton of staircases. Okay. Like so so runners down the center of a staircase, they get a bound edge or whatever. For whatever reason, we do a ton of that.
And I have two different carpet contractors that do that for me. We do do a lot of that, you know, patterned carpets and things like that. And those you asked me earlier if something scare me, carpet scares me. I would have thought one. And linoleum, which we I don't think I've ever done a linoleum job, but carpet and linoleum. And the reason why is if my tile guy comes in and screws up something on a tile floor, I can reasonably confidently come in and fix it.
I can pop the tile up, I can cut new tile, I can put it in place myself if I had to. Hardwood floors, same way LVP, LVT same way. I cannot do carpet. So carpet scares me because I can't come in and fix it myself. I'm going to have to pay somebody to fix that if it gets screwed up. So yeah, carpet scares me. I forgot about. That. Duly noted. Yeah, but if I want to just freak you out, I'll just mention the word carpet. Okay, So last question for you.
Sure, you can take a breath here, but what advice would you give to a potential homeowner who is considering a home remodel project? Could be a kitchen, could be a bathroom, but maybe it's just any room. What's the advice you would offer to them? Picking a contractor is super important and it seems like common sense.
But I have seen because things we found on projects or just just stories you hear and there is no perfect contractor, but just because the guy insured, licensed and bonded, which is good things to have and you want to make sure they've got that stuff that in. I don't care how many bathrooms they've done, that doesn't mean they do good work, if that makes sense. You know, I've seen completely unlicensed and undocumented guys, for lack of a better word. Do some of the best work I've ever seen.
And I've seen licensed, fully, fully documented guys do the worst work you've ever seen in your life. And so it doesn't always mean and it's cosmetic mostly, you know, they come and they do it real fast. Nothing leaks. It just doesn't look good. And so seeing pictures, seeing, having references, being able to call a homeowner or if you can walk in a house, that's a that's a big being able to see work they've done. And really look at it.
Don't don't have a picture that's 20 feet away where you can't see certain things. And so being very specific about that, which we try to, you know, on my website tell people anything on my website, we did start to finish. That's drywall, that's flooring, that's counters, that's cabinets, that's, you know, all the plumbing in the room, the electric, everything we did from start to finish.
Now there are projects on my Facebook page where I'll tell people this was something we came in and did a part of a project. Most of them aren't like that. But you know, and I, we all our rapport, it's all our business is referral. So I have no problem literally bringing in somebody on any of the jobs I'm currently working on or in the past. And I've got customers that would gladly say, Hey, send them by and we'll talk to them. But that's a big factor in picking a contractor.
Not just they check all the boxes on a sheet of paper, you know, that they're qualified. Okay. Well, I appreciate you taking the time to join us here today and to in all of this. Charlie O’Hearn. We appreciate you joining us on The ProSource Podcast. Please like and subscribe to us wherever you get your Podcasts. Plus follow us on social media. Visit our website at and visit your local ProSource Wholesale showroom for all your home remodeling needs.