Oh is Bolt, it's showtime. People thank good money to see this movie.
When they go out to a theater, they want clod sodas, hot popcorn and no monsters in the protection booths.
Everyone pretend podcasting isn't boring, got it off.
What we want is to have an entertaining series. Yeah, with interesting characters.
Yeah, that people like, Yeah and care about. Yeah, thank you, You're welcome.
In the early days of television, there really were no kids shows, and for Sherry to come along puppets comedy, I just knew this was different.
What's that?
That's there?
That's a camera.
She made sure you wanted to love for those characters.
Sherry was able to speak to issues controversial for a woman in that era. You can't be the president your girl as a kid.
If you saw Sherry Lewis on TV, you fell in love.
It was so clear I had found myself with Lamb Chop.
After all, Lamb Chop, what am I without you?
Nothing?
I feel a Samurai about you.
But there's only room for one son, and Lamb Chop became a big star. Mom wanted to be seen as more than a one trick pony, and the audience like, that's nice. Where's lamb Chop?
But there was a time when people didn't want Sherry Lewis.
When mar show was camped.
The only time I ever went to lamp Chop and cried with her where she did not have a show. I think that was a very lonely, horrible time for her. She did whatever came up to rebuild her career. It was in her DNA, Are you all right?
She was a fighter and not kidding it all gives you that fight.
There were a lot of kids who had very unhappy childhoods, and their oasis was this loving adult who accepted you.
No matter how little you are, you can still be a big help to a friend in need.
You create confident and curious human beings by showing them how to do something and then applauding their success.
I can, I can, I can, and I will. Okay good.
I was just having fun watching these brilliant characters teach me. I think it's called self esteem and it is the most important lesson for children to get.
And just remember to make yourself go.
Can Hey, folks, Welcome to a special episode of the Projection Booth. I'm your host Mike White. On this episode, I'm talking about Lisa Diappolito all about her new documentary, Sherry and Lamb Chop. Yes, it is a story of Sherry Lewis and her puppet Lamb Chop, entertaining children and adults for decades. Great documentary really shines a light on someone who I was not aware of, just how amazing they are, how talented, and how much of a born entertainer. We had Lisa on the show a few years ago
as she was talking about her Gilda radnerd documentary. She's back with another solid doc highly recommended. Be sure to check that out if it comes to your TOWNE and I hope you enjoy this interview. How did the Sherry Lewis project come about for you?
After Gilda? I had a list of inspiring women. I was looking for another inspiring woman, like an unsung hero whose story I felt need to be told, and Cherry wasn't actually even on my list. But I had become friends with Gene Wilder's nephew and he had a production company,
and he called me up and he's Pee. One of his producers had met Mallory Cherry's daughter, and he said, would you be interested in Sherry Lewis and Lamb Chop Cherry Lewis because he knew I was looking for a project, and I was like, h Lamb Chop, and I got all excited. And I didn't really know much about Sherry, and then I started doing the research on her and she was definitely an unsung hero. So that's kind of how that came about.
What's your experience with Lamb Chop when you're growing up?
Well, that was the weird thing is I didn't have either of the two shows. I was also in between, so it wasn't I didn't watch the Sherry Lewis show and I didn't want watch Lamb CHOP's play along. I was like in the middle. But somehow I always knew Lamb Chop and always love Lamb Chop, and somehow I had like Lamb Chop stuff, like still so love I love Lamb Chop though I nat had not thought about Lamb Chop, but you know, hearing the name Lamb Chop,
I just got excited. But I didn't watch her or anything on television, but I did see, you know, Sherry would be on talk shows and Hollywood Squares and things like that. But I just always still love lamp Chop.
Yeah, I'm kind of the same way I was between the two shows. But she just seemed like such a part of pop culture it was impossible to escape, not that I wanted to.
It's interesting because she had, you know, a very big gap in her real career though she was always working and always doing stuff, and I'll be honest, I.
Had no idea about that older career just when she started off, and just she's such a born entertainer. It was amazing to see, even at such a young age, that she was just for the stage.
Yeah. Yeah, that was really interesting. That she grew up you know, in a vaudeville environment, you know, with two teacher parents who were teachers. But music and magic and vaudeville and that was always a part of her life.
And dance, oh yeah, lots and lots of dance. And to see her with that Freda Stare puppet, that was insane.
Yeah, it's crazy. It's crazy there. You know, you can't put every story in the film, but there were stories that people would tell about you know, that was a life size like six feet tall Freda Stare or five something and he would be like in a coffin case like that we traveled around with him, and people thought like the puppet in there. As you can imagine when.
You got the suggestion of Sherry Lewis, I mean, did you just immediately go, oh, yeah, that sounds great or did you have to do a little presearch before you even said there's a project here.
I had to do some work to figure out what it was. And the first thing I came across was the New York Times obituary for her father, Abe Herowitz, who was official the official magician of New York City. So that kind of grew me in because I was like, meet what, there's an official magician And that was sort of kind of what started getting me is the background
and what she came from. And then as I started to research, I felt it was a real comeback story for Cherry, kind of like Hacks in a way like that she was just determined to get back on television and it took her decades, but she did. And she was in our sixties and she's singing and dancing and kicking up her legs and doing splits and upside down, and I think that was really inspiring to me. So I think after some research, I realized that to me, it was like a comeback story.
So when you said, Okay, this is going to be my next project, how do you go about even starting to organize all this?
Oh well there was this as opposed to Gilda. With Gilda was just me and I was a production company, so there's a production company behind us, and there were more resources to organize things. But Sherry had a history of fifty years in entertainment, so there was a lot
to go through. So I think with my amazing editor Andrea, who started looking at the material in a new eye, we started to organize and we start to see that Cherry really started to talk through her puppets, like there were some really interesting things that I no one talked about. It never came up, but Andrea has started seeing it in the material. So that's how we started to organize it, you know, as a sort of linear doc but with the idea that Cherry used her puppets too to tell her story.
With all of that historical footage, I mean, where did you manage to find all that at? Is there like a Sherry Lewis archive.
There's the great thing is that David Copperfield when Cherry somehow David Copperfield got all of Sherry's archives and they weren't organized in any way. So we had a truck go to Las Vegas pick up all her tapes and her collections and her stuff, and we brought her to Sherry's daughter's house. Mallory and I just started going through it and then we started transferring things, and not everything came from there. Some things came from her assistance, and
some things came from different places. But that was a good you know, it had every Sherry Lewis show in there, and had every Lamb Chops play along. It had articles and articles and so there was a lot of that.
How was Malory to work with on this project?
Well, she's great, She's great. You know, she does Lamb Chops. So it's so basically that's how Malory had approval over who the director would be. So she came and she was talking to people, and she came to New York until she interviewed me. And then Lamb Chop interviewed me, which at first is like a little but then you get used to Lamb Chop. But Lamb Chop like me, So I got the job.
Did she asked those kind of weird interview questions like what's your strongest weakness some of those things, or like what's that interview process?
Like? She said, she did her research and she looked for at all my interviews online and she said, tell me something that I wouldn't know by watching your interviews. And I told her something, and we had the same thing in common, and we just kind of bonded over that well, very comfortable with her to be able to tell her things that I normally wouldn't say to other people.
Now, is that Mallory? Is that lamb Chop?
Mallory?
Okay, all right? I was just curious.
Easier to talk to Mallory than lamb Chop that.
Yeah, I've not been interviewed by puppets, but I've been, you know, I've talked with some people that feel like total muppets.
Yeah.
Yeah, your editing is so great. Andrew did such a wonderful job. And I love how sometimes the footage will comment on itself or comment on the documentary itself. That's almost like Sherry is a voice inside of the film or lamp Chop talking about the things that have just we've just seen.
Oh really, Oh that's I didn't really think about it that way. But that's the l Andrew you know her, you know editing taste in her style, and it was really it was we had a really great working relationship.
What were some of the parts of the story that you wanted to get to but weren't able to just because you can't make a ten hour documentary.
Well, one thing I totally regret that we didn't put in because nobody talked about it and it somehow didn't fit in. And then we forgot was that Sherry had written episode of Star Trek.
Oh wow, I know that.
No man, that I.
Didn't put it in, So I don't know how. I remember thinking we should put this in, and I remember Andy was saying, well, no one talks about it, and it wasn't coming in, like it wasn't fitting into where things were fitting in. But I regretted that I didn't do that like that because that is such a big thing. I didn't put that in, and I regret that. And then there's a puppet that I love called Mister Person, which was a Captain Person, which was Kangaroo. He never made it in either.
I was aware of Lamb Chop, but I wasn't aware of all of the other puppets and just that like they were saying in the interview that I think it might be what Charlie Rose that she's talking to about how the puppets are different facets of her personality. That was fascinating.
Yeah, it was a different interview. And I can't remember his name because and I should go look it up because he was the best interviewer of everybody. When I found that interview, it was the insights to Sherry that I didn't get from any other interview because she was very you know shery was very conscious of her what she looked like, what she talked like, what her you know, her persona was. So that was a really good interview because he got into her and she felt comfortable enough.
It was during the time she was having problems with her husband, so I think more vulnerable than she normally would have been.
The whole thing with her marriage was so fascinating and just such an undercurrent going through everything.
Sarry has a lot of lessons I think in her life, Like you know that people have marriage problems, people have problems with their children, they have health problems, but it's really like getting through it and with a good attitude, you know, and that everybody has these problems, but you know, you can get through it. So I thought that was pretty interesting.
It is such a great structure to her life and to her story where you have that initial success and that comeback at the end, but those days in the wilderness where you're saying, like, oh, here she is in this movie, here she is in this television special. That was some of the most fascinating stuff, just how she kept her name alive and kept her personality out there.
Yeah, and she would still you know, she would go to these fairs and if four people showed up, she would still you know, she always appreciated her audience, no matter how many they were or who they were. You know, she just loved performing and entertaining people well.
And then also educator as well, which was just so great to see the way that she worked with kids.
Both her parents, her father being a you know, math professor and her mother being a music teacher. I think she grew up with teachers in the family and they both used you know, her father used magic to teach children math, So I think there was just always like teaching was always part of it. And I think all her early shows, her dad entertained children. So I think all her early shows, they was sort of an entertainment. They called it like entertainment.
So what did you actually start on this project.
Right before COVID.
How did that affect you? I'm sure that must made the interviews almost impossible.
Yeah, it was. It was difficult. I like waited for Canada the second the border opened up when in flew there. You know, it's hard to interview people, like, especially older people when you're wearing a mask, like so that was a lot of It didn't really stop us, but it made it more difficult.
I could see the old footage being such a boon to this, but yeah, without those interviews, and those interviews are wonderful, and I do love like her daughter's voice, her family's voice, David Copperfield's voice, and just how did you even decide, like when it came to people outside of that circle, who you're going to talk to?
Her family obviously, her sister, her her cousin Eli is one of my favorites who's in the film. And then David Copperfield represents the magic part, and then finding young ventriloquist who influenced by Sherry, and then Sarah Sherman, the comedian from SNL was a find out of nowhere because somebody said, oh, look on Instagram, she posted her lamb chop tattoo, So that was like, that was kind of like, I wasn't looking for some a comedian who had a lamb chop tattoo, but that seemed to just happen.
That was such a wonderful moment in the movie. Her voice just really added a lot, which I'm not even that familiar with her on SNL, but she just really brought a lot to that. And Yeah, David Copperfield stuff was just incredible, and I was like, I've never really seen him interviewed about somebody else other than him.
He loves Sherry, like he had a crush on her watching her and then he was able to meet her later in life. And they had a lot in common, like the work ethic, because Sherry the worker and so is David. So they talked a lot about their philosophy on you know, working hard, and I think that's you know, Cherry's message really is like you work hard, I want and I think David was like that too. And David had wanted to be a ventriloquist when he was young.
Yeah.
I really appreciate too. They'd given a nice little history of ventriloquism and just where it was at and when it comes to vaudeville and entertainment. And I mean it still is a marvel to me that Edgar Bergham was on the radio.
That doesn't make sense, does it.
But does see Mortimer Sheard and lamp Job together. That was really nice.
That came from like an event that Cherry was definitely the only woman in that in the show and there were several like male male and Lamb Chump was the only puppet. Everything else was a big, big dummy the Lamb Chop had.
Oh yeah, well, and Sherry could hold her own and just her being such a maverick when it came to breaking into a male dominated field.
Yeah, yeah, well I think you know, she says in the film that you know, she was raised sort of as a It didn't matter that she was a woman, you know, And she said if her father had had a son, maybe things would have been different, but she was just raised, you know, as as a person.
There was one moment of footage I wanted to ask you about particularly, it feels like it's almost like b roll or like almost test footage from I think it's a good Morning La interview and you're kind of off the stage and you can see the other cameras. Do you know what moment I'm talking about?
That was Yeah, that was like kat La or one of those shows she was on, I know, and it's like spooky. It has this orange sort of thing, so that yeah, that just looked a little different. And they had a little some b roll in there that I was able to use as like Sherry behind you know, behind the the chair with her puppet.
That was great. I thought that was so and just felt so not stage like. Of course, she knows she is a performer, so getting in front of a camera, but that just felt so natural and so behind the scenes.
I think it was rare that Cherry felt that natural on these shows. So, like you, when we found the moment that she felt like she was herself where she felt comfortable with the person because you could see, you know, she directs a lot of the interviews herself in some sense, like she doesn't want anyone to tell her anything. Like when they ask Lambshop how old you are, she turns it around and does what she wants.
To say, to be able to use Lamb Chop to deflect or any of those other puppets. I thought was.
Brilliant when Cherry was going through She's with her husband and she's on a show with Charlie ros Is getting you know, having problems and possibly getting a divorce. That's really was kind of so out of character for Sherry, but often known her husband was sitting there watching, whether he was there or watching it at home.
I can't remember when she passed away.
I think it was nineteen ninety nine.
Okay, so you, oh, no problem. I just wanted to verify that you didn't actually have a chance to talk with her.
No, we used a lot of a and he had done a documentary about her, so we were able to and the footage was at UCLA, so we were able to get all the archives and the outtakes. So that was really good. So that was a good base for us to have.
If you could have sat down with her for an interview, what would you asked her?
I guess more about her relationship with her husband, because I think she made him a producer, like he was like a trust fund kid. I just wanted to know more about that. I think the personal, that personal side of things I think I'd like to know about. I feel like I know her pretty well. Surey was a really practical person, but her husband was doing all these crazy things and she would go along with them, and I would wonder about what her experience was like meeting,
you know, being out of her comfort zone. So I guess those are the questions I would ask her. Is like, in situations where I knew she was out of her comfort zone, how did she react or what was that like for her? Because she wasn't esoteric, she wasn't that way, but she went along and I just she probably would have funny stories about things that happened to her. So I think that I would ask.
Her, So, other than a global pandemic, what were some of the other challenges you had on this phone with Love Gilda?
It was one hundred percent my film, so it was really me and the editor kind of making all the decisions. In this case, there is a production company too. There were investors, but the investors were great, but there was another production company. And I think that in some ways people don't know there's so much work that goes into making a film that you really get to know who this character is and decisions and who their life is.
And so I think there were times where there were comments about trying to make a story that wasn't there in there, and so I think that was a little bit hard for me that I had to really fight with my editor for the film that we believed in and the story that we believed in, you know, and ultimately we got, you know, mostly what we wanted. So I think that's the I didn't have to fight before for what I felt was right. So I think that was sort of a learning experience of really standing up
for what you believe in. And you know, I had the Sherry, I had the Sherry spirit behind me, you know, because no one would have told Sherry how to do
her show or how to do anything. So I think I had that Sherry inspiration behind me to really like stand up and say, now, this is this is what the story is, and no, that's not who she was, and that's not that's a made up situation and there's not even mature you know, sometimes you want I mean it also, as a director, there's things you want to but you don't have the resources and the content to tell that story, you know, or that story isn't really true, but you wish is that it was true, you know,
And I think I try to stand behind what is true and not make up anything. So I think that's that was a little bit of you know, a conflict for me is working with people who want to create a story that isn't there and trying to and having to explain to them that one that's a bad idea, two that's not the material that's there, and three that's
not the truth. And I've heard a lot of directors have you know, you work with different people different ways, and and some people are easy to work with and some people, you know, are not easy to work with. But ultimately, when the views come out, no one says, oh, the producer did a bad job. They always right, they say, oh that director did a bad film, Like so you know, you have to kind of really stick up for what
you believe in. And not that I'm that way, because I'm like, I'm always open to other people's opinions and we've had rough cut screenings and see what stands out and what doesn't work. You know, I'm always listening to audiences, Like if the audience doesn't think something worked, like the majority of the audience doesn't like something that's obviously not working, and if they love it, then it's working. So I like that kind of no thing.
When was the first time you got to see this with an audience.
We did two rough cut screenings that was so that was kind of and the second rough cut screening was pretty much the film, but you know, it was all a lot of industry people. And then at doc NYC was where the premie was, but you know, that was all of Mallory's family and my friends. So it wasn't an honest audience. It was an audience that loved us. I think as I started going to the different festivals, I got to, you know, see what like people loved
about the film. My favorite is for people who don't know who Sherry is to see the film, who have no idea who she is, never heard of her and never heard of Lamb Chop. That's you know, and that's very rare for most of the audiences have known them, because I guess that's why they're seeing the film, But the few people who haven't seen the film that you know that it moves them and it is inspired by
Sherry is like probably the best. And also some children have come to the performances, so I love their feedback on the film too.
That did I read write that you're doing the documentary about Albert Chwan?
I did. It's done. Oh great, So it's not a full documentary. It's sixty minute piece. It showed a comic con and then it started going to like the esoteric horror film festivals, so that's kind of where where that is.
So where's the best place for people to see the Sherry Lewis doc.
It opens this on the seventeenth in New York City and on the twenty fifth in Los Angeles, and then it's going to be available digitally and I'm not sure where the plans are, but it should have a pretty big release. After there's the Sherry and Lamb Chop Facebook page and then three Racist Films is my company, so sometimes I post there too.
Dun't dum dum dum dum dum dum dum.
Dum dum dum dum.
Charlie Horse, bom dum Charlie Horse.
What is it, Cherry? What's that? What's what? The song you're singing?
Dumb dum dum, dumb dumb dumb, just some dumb song.
Oh, what did you sing it for us?
No?
Share, you don't want to hear that song?
Should we do?
We'll sing along with you, Sharry, you don't want to hear this song? Come on, Charlie, all right, but you'll be sorry, so make me sorry. And he did this. Here's a song that doesn't And yep, it goes on and on. My friend, some people started singing it not knowing what it was, and they'll continue singing it forever, just because this is.
A song bad does it? No?
Yes, it goes on and hid my friend, that's enough guy. People start it.
Singing it not knowing.
What it was, and they'll continue singing it forever, just because this is a song bad guys and how to turn you on? It goes on and on, my friend, Okay, I get the.
Jeels it, I know it what it was, and they'll continue singing forever.
Just be us.
It's yes that song that I sing and I believe. Yes, it goes on and long time John oh start and sing him? And I know anyone it was? And I didn't you singing it? And by adjusting God saying hey I can't that that's a saying okay, you guys out yes it goes on the air.
I'm my god.
Some people started singing and not knowing what it.
Was and bel them oh existed the last time Bright just.
Being about this is a song that.
Does and that's not funny.
Yes it goes on, but that okay.
If that's what you're going to keep
Us, I think I want you to go out showing that's going