Episode 767: Raw (2016)

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Oh gez, folks, it's showtime.

People say good mighty to see this movie.

When they go out to a theater, they want clod sodas, hot popcorn in.

No monsters in the projection Booth.

Everyone pretend podcasting isn't boring.

Cut it off, ud, Welcome to the Projection Booth.

I'm your host. Mike White joined me once again as MS. Susan Tekla Kuruglinska.

Hey, I'm excited to discuss the most accurate depiction of academia on film.

Also back in the booth is MS Beth Akamando.

Yes, and I am happy to talk about cannibalism anytime, because anytime I see a cannabis sign, I'm always thinking it says cannibal and then I'm disappointed.

We continue Shocked Over twenty twenty five with a look at Julia Decornow's twenty sixteen film Raw The film stars Garan's Marilier as Justine, a freshman at a veterinary school. How do you know she's a vegetarian? Wait five minutes. She will tell you. When she's forced to eat a rabbit kidney, or maybe when she's doused with blood, she begins to feel strange cravings that lead to some interesting places. We will be discussing that and more as we go

I know I saw it right when it came out, because I remember there was a spate of great horror movies where were a Black Coat's Daughter?

Like?

There was a few things to add, like, I don't remember if I saw it.

I don't remember where I sat, but I know I saw it when it came out and hadn't really watched it since, and so it was great. I loved it the first time, and it was I watched it twice before this and loved it absolutely.

I can watch it right now after the we're done talking, I'll watch it. I could watch it again.

I loved it, and Beth, how about yourself.

Yeah, I saw it when it first came out. I believe sadly I saw it on a screener instead of in a theater for the first time, but I immediately fell in love with it, and in fact, it inspired me to do an entire podcast on what I called gourmet cannibal films. So these are films in which not just the craft of filmmaking is refined, but the actual eating of human flesh is not merely done for gore

Yeah. I don't remember the first time I saw this. I know I didn't see that theater. I remember probably renting it or maybe illegally downloading it at some point and just absolutely loved it. I haven't gone back to it for I guess nine years in the introm but it really made an impression and I was really glad

When you think of cannibals, it almost seems goofy. I actually think of Bugs, Bundy, like you always said that

It's really really a feat to pull off well.

It's so well shot and looks so good, and just the story structure itself is so well put together. I mean, I forgot all about that opening shot with the car coming down the road and that we see that accident happen right off the bat, and just how that plays into later on in the film. And when you see Justine being driven to school for the first time and she's going down a road very much like that, I'm like, oh,

I love films that don't tell you everything up front. There's so many movies where you watch the first ten minutes and you pretty much know everything that's going to happen. And what she does is she leaves you with this ambiguity, and it's intriguing, and it also respects our intelligence, saying that we are capable of piecing things together, and also that we're capable of not being frustrated by not knowing everything about the characters or about what it's going to be.

That, and because it's got those layers.

It's really fun to rewatch it, to watch it like twice in a row, because then you go back and you see these little bits of dialogue detail that just she obviously really thought to place perfectly in these perfect little places that would lead to something else, like a lot of little comments between the sisters where Alex is going up, I helped you when I just shove that kidney down your throat and she's no, you didn't, and you're just like, it's such a little casual bit of dialogue,

And also with the vegetarian reference, you're vegetarian too, and she's no, I'm not. Have you not been paying attention? No? And there's lovely visual cues, like you mentioned the flipping off of the finger, and it's not just what happens to that finger, but it's also that almost end image when in the prison where you get this reflection and again they're like making this joke with which is the missing finger the one she can flip you off with the.

Look of this film is so good. I love the veterinary school that she goes to, which just has this brutalist architecture and is the strangest looking veterinary school ever. Like you said, like she won't just explain something, and she doesn't explain it to us, and she doesn't necessarily explain it to Justine either. Justina is a great person for us to be following because she is as clueless as we are when it comes to so many of these things, like being taken from her dorm room and

Yes, it totally reminds me of that. I know. I listened to her commentary track and she was talking about it. She wanted them to look like insects, but for me, it was much more like cattle being put into slaughter. And you were waiting for that the device that haaveyar Bard deem uses no country for old men to kill them. It was just such a bizarre and disorienting shot. You really don't know where they are. It's almost like a

Starts with someone crawling in that kind of Japanese harorway that you see like and that was it the ring that she comes out of the TV. But you kind of see that a lot in Japanese hard this kind of insect like crawling forward of a ghost or something. And then she has a point where someone's licking someone's eye.

Is so great too, things like well, even with the car crash that we see later on, I was thinking of Weekend, you know, very similar road. Of course, there's the big Carrie reference when they're doused with blood. Even when she's eating raw meat, I was thinking of Rosemary's Baby. I'm like, oh, yeah, this is just steeped in film references.

But it's steeped in film references where it's not that like nudge, nudge, wink wink, look at what I'm doing. You can watch the whole movie and not catch a single one of those and it still plays fine. And again, I just like her subtlety. She doesn't try to call attention to some of that stuff, but.

It's all there.

And like you said, this is a film you can keep rewatching and you keep finding new things in it, and that's one of the things that's so exciting about it.

And just those little blink and you miss at moments like when they turn this the initiation into a big party and and you see a guy with the girl and he's about to make out with her, and it looks like he takes something and puts it in her mouth, and I'm just like, Okay, is that ecstasy or is that like a Roofye, Like, I don't know what this is, but she just accepts whatever it is that he puts in her mouth.

Yeah.

Incredible detail, like just incredible background people and incredible of course, little punctuating actors like the guy at the gas station and the crazy smiling demon in the hospital room when they're when they're getting her in the hospital, her finger after her finger incident. She just places these really interesting characters, little interesting details to just put you on edge.

And also the nurse is another great one. Obviously.

She talked about the fact she called these her Island characters, like they only exist in one scene, and they're kind of like these harbingers of something that's coming, Like each one kind of gives her a warning about something or talks about something that's going to come up later. But yeah, they're great characters. You could pull each one of them out and make a little movie separately to each of them.

Yeah, and anything they say has nothing to do with the movie.

Like the guy at the truck stop who's holding his ear in such an eerie way. He's like making Aiden feel very uncomfortable in a sexual way, but he's I forget what he's talking about pigs or he has a pig in his truck or something. And then the nurse is they're stuck in about an old student who is overweight, and I have a feel like that's a nod to obviously the growing up thing and being in a female

Of the movie for a split second.

In a way, it makes them to be not overwhelming because you take these little, tiny side trips every once.

In a while.

It does tie in because talking about the pig, and it's like how close it is to humans and this notion of issue losing her humanity by turning in to a cannibal or is she just becoming more animalistic? There's part of that. And then the nurse, it's so much of that conversation is about growing up, about body image, about how perceptions of people impact the way they behave and the way they're perceived. So like each of those things, and the little demon guy at the hospital, My god,

Well, the thing with the guy at the truck stop, isn't her roommate who eventually becomes her lover a is that his name right. He talks about how like how gross it is the way that she was eating, and that really turns off a guy, and then she uses that against the truck driver in order is she just starts stuffing her face after a while, Like when he's talking to them and starting to get really super creepy,

It's creepy. It's really creepy.

Yeah, And I don't think they talk very much about how she's a virgin as well. I mean, not only is she getting this first taste of meat and this whole new life that is coming out for her, but she's also sexually awakening. I mean, I think the two really go hand in hand.

It's a first for her for so many things. She's going to college for the first time. She's in this environment that's brand new. She's a virgin, she's going to try human flesh for the first time. There's so much there that.

As you do when you're a freshman, right.

I think a really interesting theme is she has zero control over anything, which is very like adolescent through emerging adult age group. It's like she is going to the same college that her parents went to and that her sister went to. She's forced to make out with that guy in the closet, like she's forced to wear certain clothes that her sister gives her.

They'd make her wear a diaper. They're telling her what to wear.

The hazing is completely in complete control over them, how she's sleeping.

The professor tells her, I don't care how good you are. I don't like you. She has what she's eating.

She has no control over anything, and I think that's really I think they that she hits the director hits Julia hits that really really hard, that she has zero control and she ends up in a trap. The intention was that she's morally overcoming this thing that her sister wasn't able to overcome. But still I find it very sad. In the end, that she's really been trapped into this thing.

I'm not so sure I would define it as lack of control as much as just she's it's just being young and being this kind of blank slate, like she doesn't have a lot of experiences to guide her or to even make her think about choices that she might have. So I feel like she's this empty receptacle that's receiving all this information and all this stuff, and the progress is her finally like making some choices, even though some

The whole idea of her sister being part of this school and being there as this hazing ritual is going on, and it feels like, is this hazing going on for the first full year or is it the first full week?

I mean, how it's a week I think Yeah.

This whole timeline is so compressed.

Then, so one of the things I will say about, like the whole hazing and the you talked about her being forced to dress a certain way because they tell so. KPBS is on the San Diego State campus and when I used to work late at night, I used to see all the sorority and fraternity people coming back from parties or going to parties. And one of the things that always baffled me was I would see like this

The decision is do you want to dress like it's a party time? Basically, do you want to dress like a slut or do you want to dress like a baby. We can put you in a diaper or we can put you in a short black dress, one or the other.

You can make that a reference of women's oppression, like you're either infantilized or you're a slug. But and I think she definitely talks about that when you hear her interviewed about that, she's it's very much a feminist intentionally.

But I do think though.

It is it is a really great choice cultural choice of a nightmare situation. I agree, I find that idea terrifying to be in a fraternity or to me that is that's terrifying, and it's a really great choice to be in this claustrophobic school. But you could see it's in the middle of nowhere and with this again this art brutalist, like this really gray background and it's depressing

It's just like it's like a realistic Saw movie. That's really what it's like. And I also just want to point.

Out that one of the amazing things in this movie is that all of the animal stuff is one hundred percent real, including the freakizoid in the jars, the little freaky those are all real. That's totally, every single thing in this movie is one hundred percent real, which makes it so cool.

Though not real kidneys that they eat. Those are some sort of jelly stuff covered by chocolate, so I was glad that they didn't make them actually eat kidneys. Though with it being France, I was like, well, maybe that's a delicacy. I don't know.

We use only the choicest, juicy chunks of fresh cornish rams, bladder.

Empted, steamed, flavored with sesame seeds, whipped into a fondu and garnished with larks vomited.

You were talking about the sins of the father, the sins of the parents being visited upon the daughters, and this whole idea of you know, if I went through this, so do you. It feels at times, not necessarily like a cannibal movie, but almost like a vampire film. When it comes to this idea of the hunger that they have for the flesh and the way that it's been passed down from generation to generation. It's like, how far back does this go? Does this go back to medieval

And also it seems like it's passed down from mother to daughter. He is more the obviously she feeds off of him in a certain way, the mother, And I'm not sure that the one thing I wasn't completely sure of is the scars, if that was from their initial like courtship quote unquote, or if that was something that has been going on over time. Does she have to feed on him on a regular basis in order to

I can totally see that, especially you know, I don't remember which one of you brought up the animalistic aspect of this, And you know, there's that scene pretty early in the movie where there's the guy talking about fucking monkeys and getting AIDS and all this, and she really falls on the side of the monkeys, and it's just like she seems to identify more with the monkeys than with the people, and it's like, Okay, yeah, I can kind of see where she does have this much more

In both of those cases, that was real animal blood, like in Carrie, they killed those pigs and that this veterinary school was going to have the real thing to pour on them. But I wanted to just get back to the family thing again, and like the female family thing is, I thought it was a really nice touch that they Alex is not talking to.

Her mother, but the mother.

It's implied she's not talking to either parent, but it seems like it's much more the mother. And I think it's interesting that she maybe really resents her mother forgetting her to be this kind of being. And then I wonder if she teases her sister that, oh, they you're the special one.

They love you, You're the favorite one.

And the mother is like when they're in that diner as they're driving to the school and one of the first scenes, Justine actually accidentally gets a little meat in her potatoes, and the mother's really upset and she's just gonna tear the head off of the whoever the cook is.

And it's interesting that she's so protective of Justin.

So you wonder, I wondered, were they trying to protect Justine from this? But they sacrifice the older daughter, and that's why the older daughter's pissed up, and that's why the older daughters f this.

I'm gonna make You're gonna be You're gonna have to suffer the way I did. She's such a villain.

There's a love hate relationship, but it's way more hate on her end to her sister than it's a real great villain role.

I'm not sure I see her as a villain for the reason I think where they're having that fight at the end and they're both biting into each other, and there's like this connection. Anytime you're in a family, there's love and hate all the time. Probably, Yeah, I'm not sure I see her as a villain. She's a victim herself. She's got this curse on her that she's had to live with and she's had to figure out a way to do it.

She shoved that kidney down her throat, like they seem to be like whatever. They were like, oh, if you're a vegetarian, but she's like, no, no, you're gonna eat this thing. And I thought that was a all sign of she's gonna make sure this happens. And I think it could have been. It seemed to me maybe it could have been prevented. I don't know, that's just it is a matter of interpretation.

But she also, like Justine, does not seem like one hundred percent on board with the vegetarianism. Like when she's at that restaurant and the mother gets upset, it's not a big deal to her, Like she doesn't seem to care that much. She doesn't seem to be as driven at that point about oh it's okay, I had a piece of meat in my mouth. It doesn't really matter, don't make a big scene. But the mother does want

But I don't know.

Yeah, I just I think the film. For me, the film feels more complex than just labeling alex as a villain. Like I just don't see her like one hundred percent in that role, even though she does some things that are questionable, but maybe it's her way of doing tough love.

They're subtle about her being a village. So I just I see it a little differently. But yeah, it's I think it's.

Cool that you don't come away with that so much, except you do see her in the end in a trap there.

But I don't know.

I think again, it's just beautiful the way she portrayed the sister thing.

I think that was a great choice.

She says in interviews that she originally was not going to have a family, familial thing. It was going to be like another woman who maybe she had a relationship with, maybe even a romantic relationship with. But it is brilliant to do sisters because it's so love it's so like she She kind of comments the reason she chose it was that they could try to kill each other and then put their arms around each other and nobody would question that, because that's the way it is with sisters.

Yeah, the familial aspect you know about it reminds me of that other film. I can't remember the title. We Are What We Are. It's the American remake of the Mexican film about the family. The family feels very kind of Quaker or something, but they eat human flesh and they have these lovely little dinner scenes where they're eating this human flesh. But there's this very sense, this very strong sense of family and that they have to keep doing this and they have to stay together and this

I love that as Laurent Lucas playing the father because we just talked about him last week when we talked about in My Skin and he was the kind of shithead boyfriend Vincennes and it's kind of nice to see him back here and with all these big bites out of him. I'm just like, oh, okay, it's not the same woman that would have you know, she was much more into eating herself than she was into eating him.

And he says, never don't have two girls. It's too much trouble.

He says that to his younger daughter, meaning we shouldn't have had you.

Yes, what do you guys think of the there's that sequence after she wakes up and finds that horrific rash across her and it's almost like the dream sequence, but we see the dream after she wakes up of the horse that's on that treadmill running in slow motion. I love that imagery. It looks so beautiful, but I keep trying to figure out what that means in relation to her.

The worst is kind of like it's on a treadmill, so it's trapped and it can't horses, Like what animal loves to run more than a horse? Like none, there's none, that's it, Like horses love to run more than any animal. And it's on a treadmill, so it can't go anywhere, and then they have like harnesses around it.

So I think it is that just being being trapped.

Being on a treadmill also suggests no progress, like you're not going anywhere. In addition to being trapped, it's it's also no forward progress. And we also saw the horse a horse earlier that was going in for an operation, and so they take this big, powerful, huge horse and sedated it collapses in this tiny little room, and again that's another sense of being trapped in this small space. And I read that the horse was actually going in to be castrated, so it wasn't dead. So again like

We see a lot of dead animals, We see dead dogs, and they are dissecting and but it's it's this great irony that there's meat everywhere, Like if you were if you were a kind of person who like had craved like animal meat, it's just meat as far as I could, like, you just have his endless meat.

But what they created as human meat.

So it's this interesting contrast, like irony, ironic contrast.

Yeah, but do you really want to eat animals that you dissect that might be filled with what are they fill them with? To like from aldehyde? Like I would say that if I was like an animal, I would sniff that and go no, no, no no.

Well they have a lot of live animals there too, Like when she walks into a classroom and there's a cow.

Just standing right there, pregnant cow.

Yeah, Or when she goes to see her sister later on and her sister is shoulder deep inside of a cow. It's like, oh boy, I remember when I was in England, the first time. The person I was staying with was watching some sort of medical show and sure enough, they're just reaching inside of this cow. That was the first time I had ever seen that type of image. I was like, you got to be kidding me, what the hell is going on here? That's you know, BBC one nine o'clock at night. I'm like, whoa.

And also the thing is you were not sure what she's doing at first, and it the past when I've seen something like that, it's been to help a cow, like birth a calf, and they're helping to pull out, and it wasn't It was like she's pulling shit out and removing some obstruction. So it's like the kind of grittiest, grungiest, dirtiest way to be inside that cow.

I love the two mirror scenes that we have, like when she does get called out for not dressing you know, nightclub or sexy, and her sister puts that dress on her in the and she's looking at herself in the mirror and she's got her regular clothes on with this stress on over it. And then you get that moment later on in the film where she's dancing in front of the mirror with a different It might be.

The same dress as the one, but she is so.

Self possessed at that moment, the way that she starts making out with herself in the mirror and that fucking amazing song that is playing at that time, that rap, And I'm so glad that they translated those lyrics because those are fucking wise.

And the other thing about the mirrors is when she has that conversation early on in the film about the monkeys and they say, oh, you think monkeys deserve the same rights as humans, And her point is they can see themselves in a mirror, so they're self aware.

So we have all.

These mirror images throughout the film. I don't know if those are the moments when she wants us to think about how self aware is Justine, How self aware is she about where she is in this weird evolution that she's going through, and is she human in her self awareness or has she become more like animalistic like the monkeys, who can recognize themselves in the mirror but maybe don't have the same self awareness that a human being has.

And what happens right after that mirror scene, she's wearing her sister's dress, and now she's like really wearing her sister's dress, and she's then they show her in there's a sort of a party scene, and she's just got that Kubrick stare right, she's.

Got her head down and she's got the Kubrick stair.

She's sitting there like an animal, Like, she really looks like an animal there. And then the next thing that happens is it turns out her sister tricked her, right, and she was really really drunk, and I think it's I think I'm saying the sequence right. That's when her sister filmed her because she was so drunk she didn't know what she was doing. Films her with a corpse and is making her beg like an animal on her hands and knees, beg like an animal for this corpse.

For sure.

It's just thwarted. She's still in control of her sister. She has no control over anything. So it's very sad.

Domesticated on a leash, all those kind of things you could.

Say technically in the sisters defense, technically I will say she did not film it and share it. It was other people in the crowd. And there's even one person who, like some guy walks away, going, this girl is too drunk. You guys shouldn't you shouldn't be filming. And I mean the sister's definitely at fault for doing that too.

She's doing it.

She's doing yeah, she's doing it. And for everybody's got phones. Everybody knows that's gonna be fun, you know what I mean, It's yeah, And I think it was really incredibly cruel. Just think about her doing that to her sister. It is just, Yeah, I thought it was. It was quite wicked.

And in that scene you talk about when she's at the at the party, it's also that red theme that goes through it. She's got that Kubrick stare, but it's also got this red wash of light and it really the thing I kept thinking when I saw her at that point is like she has now become the predatory animal. She has transformed at this point.

Yes, she looks like she is a dog in that scene, and I am just so glad that this film didn't go there. When it came to the dog and the Brazilian wax, I really thought for sure that that was going to happen in this movie, and I was really glad that it didn't. But got that Brazilian wax scene. Wouldn't you trim first before you put on the wax, because she's got a lot of hair there.

And I think it makes it harder if you trim. I don't know what hurts is just the hair coming out, whether it's long or short, I think. But yeah, the dog going there though, would have been in the Japanese anime what was it?

Gance?

They have a name for the.

Dog, what is it?

A butter dog I've got yeah.

Though it had been a little Bobcat gold weight sleeping dogs. Lie. Yeah.

She talks about that Brazilian wax as torture, and that's another aspect of this of what women go through to try to conform to certain ideas of how they should look or how they should be. But yeah, you're gonna put yourself through that kind of torture.

Justine wants none of it. She even plucks, She even plucks.

Her eyebrow, at one point, the sister's just again to me, the sister is just constantly, constantly, just like absolutely dominating in a way that is really aggressive. And there's even a moment when they're playing video games. So then she also with Adrian. I'm sorry if I said Aiden before I met Adrian.

They're playing she she won.

So Justine's developing a real crush obviously on this this roommate, this gay roommate. And but the sister can tell that, and so she moves in on him and is playing games, and then he leaves. They're playing games, she and her sister in adversarial position of playing a game against each other. And the last thing that the sister says, where it cuts away, she goes, kill yourself, kill yourself. She's like instructing her, She's instructing her how to play a game.

Which I think.

Again, like there's really so much detail, Like even on the little there's like a TV screen at one point.

Everything, every little detail really feeds into this.

You can look at things on the wall that kind of feed into the whole story, and I think every single word is really very carefully written.

Well when you say everything, Like on the wall when the demon guy in the hospital, the sign behind him says, do not cross this red line. And that's kind of like, yeah, there's these lines. Maybe it's the line of human and dividing humanity and animals, but don't cross that line, and they do.

I have to say that one of the most disturbing things. I mean, you can keep all the cannibalism. The most disturbing thing for me is when she is throwing up her own hair.

That's a nightmare I have all the time. Do you ever have that nightmare? I have that nightmare a lot where I'm.

Just pulling things out of my mouth. It's often hair or some other substance like that. So I wonder if she got that from a real dream. I imagine it's the kind of thing a lot of people have. But yeah, I was Boy, did that get me?

For sure?

I don't have that nightmare. But everybody's gotten like a hair in their food at some point, and it's just like uncomfortable, feeling like you just don't want it in your mouth. So to see like a massive amount of it is really brutal. And I think there's also people think of hairballs they always think of cats, and that's usually not something that's horrific. We think cats are funny when they're throwing up hair of balls. I don't know,

And that you saw her chewing on her hair in the previous when that professor's calling her out. I just was thinking of all the time that there was a time in elementary school where this poor girl was chewing on her own hair and my teacher made her go up to the front of the classroom and basically humiliated her in front of everyone. Was just like, okay, Tracy, if you're kind of chew your hair, chew your hair right here, we all want to see it. It was like oh my god, Like that still haunts me to

One thing I hate in all movies in the vomit scenes. I can't watch a vomit scene, but I hadn't seen. Mike very kindly provided us with some deleted scenes, and I hope people can find this on YouTube. But there's one deleted scene where she's in the classroom where they had the pregnant cow, and it's a really great scene.

It's gorgeous and it's unbelievably. The direction there is just amazing.

So much of this film is gorgeous, even though it shouldn't be. We shouldn't find some of this stuff to look beautiful, but the film is really a beautifully shot and executed movie.

Speaking of throwing up, I love after she throws up. There's the girl in the bathroom with her who is just like, oh, you should really use your fingers instead.

It makes it much easier, she said, use two fingers, and then.

She's like combing her hair with her fingers, and she just has this beautiful smile, like she kind of smiles at herself and her eyes closed and she just looks like so beatific. I'm like, what the hell, But it's like this nice advice from one girl to another because she probably thinks that Justine is bellemic.

But also that's my like, that's like her testing that smiles. I'm gonna have to go out of this bathroom into the public space, and I need to look like I'm happy. So this is my happy smile, because when she stops smiling, she does not look happy at all, and she's a little chubby, so she's probably somebody who herself has done this or has been told that she needs to lose some weight, so it feels very much. Again, this is another commentary on like body image and the pressures to

When she at the hospital site. Is that what you mean after the hospital?

Yeah?

She and by the way, that hospital and speaking again of beutiful building, Oh my god, that building is so cool.

The hospital. You have to it's just great.

So she goes outside of the hospital and yeah, she tries to make herself throw up the finger and yeah, there it is.

Everything comes back around in a beautiful way.

Yeah, and those buildings, it does remind me of like Cronenberg's films, especially some of his early ones, like those structures.

That are Crimes to the Future or whatever.

Yeah, but also way back, what was that what was the student film that he made? I forgot the name of it. Oh, I think it maybe that was the original Crimes of the Future, because wasn't didn't you do what?

Yeah?

Yeah, yeah, so that one yeah, where it's these kind of cold, very impressive structures, but it had a very cronenberg Esque look to the buildings and the just the architecture that's throughout the film.

And I seem to remember that had a lot of people in white coats as well, if memory serves. It's been a long time since I've seen it. But yeah, that's so confusing that he made two movies with the same title, and I don't think they're related, but I have and seeing the new.

One, No, they're not not that. Maybe thematically you could say they're related, but in terms of an actual narrative, I did not find anything.

They're Brazilian scene definitely, the whole idea of the chopping off of the finger and rather than I mean, I guess the preservation doesn't go as well as it should have, what with Justine starting to eat the finger, and then the whole idea of the sister waking up, and I just, oh, man, that's like this shared secret that they have that keeps

I noticed throughout the film there is no concern for dogs, Like when she's in the car driving to school and the dog licks her in a very friendly, affectionate way. She just shoves that dog away, which is another reason why I didn't believe she was vegetarian at all. You don't treat animals, you a dog like that dog exists only for joy, so anyway, but that is my own personal prejudice on that point.

The music in that scene it's amazing, like it really makes that scene like spectacular. It starts with just a nice guitar that's almost too nice for what just happened. This is after the finger gets cut off. There's this beautiful there's like this theme that goes with Justine and it's just a really pretty guitar theme.

But then it goes into what.

Is it clavier like the organ that it's like the classic horror movie Organs but done.

It's such a gorgeous like they nail it so hard.

Yeah, and we can wonder what if there had been ice in the freezer, would this have taken a different turn? Would she have never bitten it? I don't know. But that scene also made me think of the other French film inside, Like, where the hell did French get these scissors that can cut open a stomach and just blop off a finger.

Yeah, yeah, I've never had scissors that sharp in my entire life. I've never had knives that's sharp in my life.

In one of her interviews, she admits that she's like, that might be a little unrealistic.

Yeah, she does say that.

Yeah, which, so she gotta you gotta, you gotta conventions with movies.

Yeah, but yeah, when you see your take out those scissors, first you're terrified that she's gonna cut that wax off and cut off her sister's skin. And then it turns out that those scissors get turned on her. But yeah, you see those scissors come out, and you're immediately like your hair it rises going, Yeah, nothing good's gonna happen from that.

Well, when she brings out the scissors, doesn't Justine say you're going to castrate me.

I don't know.

She said my pussy or something like that.

Yeah, I'm glad that shot translates between American and French. You know, I didn't realize that pussy is the same in any language. Oh, you'll circumcise me, that's what she.

Says not, Yeah, that's great, that's a much greater choice of words there.

Yes, exactly because of the female circumcision. Yeah, I did see one video essay that was talking about that opening scene that we were discussing with the car crash at the beginning and just positing like, well, maybe that's why Alexia isn't there when the parents show up to school, and that she's out causing that car crash, because then you see the car crash later on in the film when it's her in a roommate going out for takeaway to get that kebab, and she's fascinated by that car crash,

Yeah, and the timeline is just something we don't know, Like we don't know if that car crash was months ago or it was immediately before she got there. And again that's like the ambiguity of the film that she just doesn't feel like she needs to explain that, but we're gonna eventually piece together what that car crash means and that it happens more than once. She has to feed quite often.

I love that I did it. That's why they couldn't reach her. Yeah, that's great.

I also love the scene when she is staring at you're talking about the Kuprick stare, when she's staring at Adrian when he's playing whatever game that is, and just the active, active camera on him that's moving all over and then cut back to her and it's that still camera and you just get that look on her face and it's not lust. It's definitely something other than lust.

She's looking at that flesh and that tasty skin. It definitely, to me, definitely reads more of a flesh hunger than a sexual desire at that point.

Yes, so we should probably at this point talk about that sex scene which is pure animal, which was an amazing performance. I think they had some stand ins because she was only seventeen, But oh my gosh. I love the ending of it where it really you think she's biting into him and they do it beautifully work just for a second you think she's biting into him and then he realized now she's biting into.

Her own arm. It's a great ending to that scene.

I love that the director talked about that being she considered the sex scene like a stunt scene, like a fight scene that has to be choreographed that and I think she did it where she actually was like giving direction during the scene, telling them what to do. But yeah, yeah, it's like this well choreographed action and yeah, the no, the bite is like it is the perfect way to.

End it, and that's the orgasm right there.

She did so many great interviews, but like she mentioned possession at one point the subway scene, and I think it might have been attached to that scene, which makes a lot of sense, like just the person just completely losing it, just that kind of acting where you just have to let go. So it's really quite a wild scene.

It's really really over the top and it totally works that it's over the top.

Yeah, because you really see a transformation. There's a point where it starts and you're kind of like, oh, okay, it's a sexual awakening. She's attracted to him, and then she has a transformation, Like you really see a point where you start to worry for adrian safety because you feel like, oh, that's a hunger for flesh that's waking up right now. And I kind of like this guy, and I'm a little work. He's not gonna make it through this.

All right, Let's go ahead and take a break and we're going to play an interview that I did with Barbara Creed, the author of the monstrous feminine film Feminism and Psychoanalysis, as well as quite a few other things. Had a great time talking with her about this week's movie as well as the previous week's movie in My Skin. If you haven't listened to that episode, I highly recommend you to go back and listen to that as well.

Hello, everyone, this is Marvin McDowell. I just want to say that this is a request to listeners of the Projection Booth podcast to become patrons of the show via Patreon dot com, pat bo n dot com slash Projection Booth. That's pretty simple, I need you can do that. It's a great show and Mike he provides hours of great entertainment. So now it's time to give back my little drovies. Settle down and take a listen and have a sip of the old Molocco and then you'll be ready for a little of.

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I'd like to know a little bit more about you, and especially how you got interested in animus studies.

I became interested as a kid. Really, I was an avid Hitchcock fan as a teenager. This is going back into the late fifties, Vertigo, Psycho. I just love them all, and so that continued on. I helped set up the first film society at Monash University where I went, and I was a secondary school teacher. I was meant to be teaching literature, but more often than not, i'd be teaching a film instead. I'd hire films from the State Film Center and I got a projectionist license.

Although I'm really.

Interested in literature, and I didn't my honest in literature. I didn't my masters and my PhD and so forth in cinema here in Australia. So it's just been a lifelong passion. Really, we want to work out exactly why we have to go into sort of analysis of some sorted Probably I just so I always found films so exciting, and I was always very interested in surrealism from an early age too, so I was somehow drawn to the dark, crazy side of things. I love all cinema, but particularly

What were some of those early surrealist films that you're watching.

I think probably the first one I saw was on Aushoon and Alou. When I started university, we screened it at the Film Society. We had a little Boonwell festival, and I got involved in the Melbourne International Film Festival, which screened annually and it was the only place in Australia where you could see films uncensored. There was no censorship restrictions. So I used to volunteer as an usher. I was still at high school and go across to a place called Saint Kilda to the old Palais Theater

Then.

Probably the first feature was Exterminating Angel, one of full time favorites, as well as belt Azure.

I love that so many people when they look at films, they just think.

Here's a movie.

What's the first time that you said, there's something else going on here?

Probably with Psycho. It was being screened in Melbourne and there was a lot of pipe around it and we were told that once we were in the cinema we weren't allowed out the doors would all be shut, which would clock, which of course they weren't, So that got us all spooked, and I was just astonished because gradually there was a constant stream of people who couldn't take it anymore and were leaving the cinema. By the time we got to the end when the mother turns around

I don't know if it came out.

I'm not sure. So yes, I think with Hitchcockabe, that's when I first became aware that these films were dealing with unconscious desires as well as conscious, and that there was something happening beneath the surface. Which is so much more evident, I think in horror, obviously, in film lawrence, surrealism, right. Yeah, and today, of course our students just accept this snow problem in convincing them.

Monster's Feminine was the book. It was incritical and inspired that article.

Firstly, I was very involved in women's liberation and gay liberation in the seventies and eighties, and a friend and I taught a course at the Council of Adult Education, which we call pre patriarchal religions. I'm not religious, but I became fascinated with what seemed to me to be the complete censorship or oppression or whatever of what had happened prior to Christianity, and that there were, in fact, I mean, I was taught these were pagan cults when

And what you have to do is you go to your local video shop. We don't really have any more left.

And all bring along with a horror video be grade, probably with the character's female, the monster's female. They found so many and I had to bring one too, so we'd screen them all day. We'd have fantastic looking at these and movies that was important. In fact, the other day,

I think it was.

What happened was I got a letter from Tony Bennett who read the screen article. He's an academic, and said, look, we'd love it if you could just put this into book form and we can publish it in our series

Obviously, you talk a lot about the abject, and I've talked a little bit about that in our discussions of these films. But I was curious, what is your definition or how do you use objection when it comes to looking at films.

When I wrote The Monstrous Feminine, I was using it very much as Christova does. So the object, it's not an object, it's a state of being. It's a feeling, and it occurs when boundaries are crossed, borders are breached, and in general, you could argue that she might use the word patriarchal societies that I did, although she talks about them like a lot of French feminists and other writers that don't like to be tied to feminism or

When you talk about a border, I'm curious if you could apply that to the body as far as a film like In My Skin, where she is violating that border by digging in and cutting open and taking pieces of that. And you mentioned cannibalism as the self cannibalism that she's doing the skin.

When you think about it, it's a very fragile covering, but it holds everything in all our insides, if you like.

So.

I think that's why in horror films there are so many scenes with knives, because the knife threatens to cut the skin open, at which point everything falls from the inside to the outside. So the abjective is all very much about the inside falling to the outside. And in terms of the human body, it's the skin that protects

Anyway.

I remember going to the cinema a lot with my good friend who sadly died not long ago, Leslie Stern, and she wrote, she written a lot on the cinema and a group of us we go every Friday to see horror movies, and she say, barbe, look, I just can't watch, so tell me when it's over. So these should be with their head between hernes, missing all the objects, but she's still see the horror movies. So I thought, that's another look that the horror film has created. That's

You give that moment also in my skin where you can't trust the main character's own gaze when she looks down at her arm on a table and it's not connected to her body at all anymore.

I thought that was beautifully surreal. I kept thinking of the Boonewell Film's Discreet Charm of the Bourgeoisie, where the first is the exterminating Angel, where they all come to meet for dinner and they can't leave the room, and then there's discreete Charm where they're all trying to make an arrangement to have dinner but they can't actually get together.

Imagine Nunsha in Andalou and there's that scene of the hand on the street or the disembodied hand and discreet Charm that's trying to choke the woman.

That's right, that's right. I love that scene. It's fantastic years. I'm sure that's part of what she's doing. I think that's the only scene that moves around the surreal. But it's important that she's put it there. I think because she's once she's telling us that she wants us to relate to the film. It's both real and surreal that we're dealing with the unconscious as well as the conscious. It's such a strange film and whole idea of self cannibalism.

So I talk.

About the journey into objection, where I talk about radical objection. So it's quite a change from the way I used objection in the first book. And I think this has happened because most of the films I talk about are actually directed by women who say, okay, so our what is are abject? All right, let's what does this mean. Let's open it all up for discussion, as do Quno does in Rauw and I think Marina.

Does in My Skin.

So it's a sort of completely interesting change of emphasis. So you get and I argue this happens pretty much in the beginning. Starts at the beginnings of the New Century, as women are becoming a lot more vocal about themselves and their rights. You get hashtag me too, which actually begins earlier, around two thousand and eight, but it really comes to the fall a decade later with the Harvey One,

But we're not.

We are an animal, and civilization is a veneer in a lot of cases, which Horror of course explores as the veneer falls away. Which is why the monstrous figure the monsters Frankenstein onwards is so fascinating and in most horror films, the figure we identify with as Doucono says that she finds the monster fascinating because the monster is rebelling,

Your new book sounds fascinating. I've been hoping to read some very low written essays around things like Megan and Companyon or even x Mark, and just this whole idea of this sexualization of the false female and how false is that female versus a real woman.

Yes, ex Mecanner is really interesting. Although I know I've been criticized some people argue there is a sort of threat of racism running through it in terms of the other robotic women. But it poses some fabulous questions. The one I just love is under the Skin the Scarlet Johansson. It's just amazing. He took ten years to make that film.

I thought that was amazing. It reminded me a little bit of Annihilation with the again that double of Navy Portman towards the NDADA.

Gosh, that's an interesting film. Look, I think too, the interesting thing because I'm so interested perssical figures. I think that shimmer relates to the ancient I know it's pronounced him that you could pronounce it a shimmer of that ancient creature that's made up of all sorts of different animals, I think, And that's also an interesting The shimmer is now used as a term a part of the DNA our DNA, which figures strongly in that film too. I think it's I think it's origins go right back. I

Have you watched Alien Earth?

Oh no, I haven't.

I highly recommend it. It's very interesting.

Yeah, okay, that's had very good reviews, hasn't it. I think, yeah, I enjoyed it. There were a couple little plot things whereas like I'm not sure if I buy that, but overall and again a real idea of what is it to be human? They break down things into three different type of non human entities right at the beginning and play with that.

Through the rest of us.

That's right in my alley at there you Go, There you Go. Great. I wanted to ask a little bit more about switching from him in my skin to Raw and just the difference with that one. Whereas within my skin she's taking in herself and eating herself, whereas with Raw it is much more of the outside and being kind of separated out, not just as a young woman, but also as it's like her family is a different creature altogether that have to end imbibe human flesh.

I've got a particular theory about that, and I don't know how conscious this is with Juliet du Kuno, but she's kind of educated and she herself is very interested in mythology. Of course, Detaine is based very much on the Titans and the whole all the mythology around them. So what you get in Raw, the difference between Raw and in Mass Raw is more of a conventional cannibal film in that she's eating the other and this becomes abject because she's collapsing the boundaries between self and other,

Now.

Freud's theory of cannibalism, which I always take as a kind of symbolic allegorical story, but he argues that in primitive early times, society or culture is instigated or comes about very gradually because of the institution of three taboos

Equalds.

So in some areas it was the wolf would be the total animal, for example, or certain or a bird or whatever. So they eat part of the father in a sort of meal of honor, and then as a totemic meal, and then they say, never again will this happen. And this is when they bring a taboo on cannibalism,

I think she's.

Challenging the myth that cannibalism. The taboo on cannibalism begins with the father and the sons in the male and it's now a matter of complete change whether taboo on canadidism and society in culture are established via the mother and the sisters and with the agreement of the father. It's certainly playing with the original Broadian story. That's for yours to be giving a more feminist interpretation of this taboo. I only really treked about the cannibal meal and so forth.

A monkey or any it's right, which I think is playing on that whole aids comes from monkeys myth.

It is because her gay friend. I think he points that out to him as well. She says, I'm sure you know the monkey has feelings. And she also says that the monkeys can recognize themselves in mirrors, which is a red reference to Lekhan's theory the mirror phase, which I thought, there goes Couno again.

She slips all of his things.

In the other interesting thing, I discovered the actor Laurent luke Pan plays in both films, and he's the actor who plays the very intolerant boyfriend in My Skin, and he's the father in raw So that must be deliberate. He's come to terms now with the female book, which wasn't happening in In My Skin.

I was horrified, are you still working these days?

Retired in twenty sixteen, I've.

Never been busier. I bet that's what it sounds like with your book projects.

I did return back. Rawledge got in touch and said, look, do you think you could write another fifteen thousand words for The Monstrous Feminine and bring it up to date. I was, yeah, sure, the pandemic had just started. What am I going to do? I said yes, But then I started looking at all the films that horror films of the last two decades. I was just knocked out. I couldn't believe the number of women directing horror movies.

That's what do you mean? They still wanted it. So I did it.

But I got thirty thousand words out of them, and I added a new section called The Monstrous Feminine as non Human because I've become interested in the non human. But that was just amazing. It was such a shock. When can we expect section there, but there's just there was too much to ignore.

Well.

I was contacted recently by two women who were doing a special edition of a journal on women and horror to write an afterward, which I said sure, and then they dropped back to me the other day and they said, oh my goodness. They said, we put out a call for papers, we've had over two hundred and fifty. We can't believe it. And now they're doing a companion a book. I can't remember that they're doing it with Oxford or Cambridge. I can't remember which one they got. They couldn't believe

Is there a deep for that?

One manuscript goes in this week completed. I think they're hoping to bring it out this time next year.

Thank you so much for your time. This has been so very time with you.

I lovely. Yeah, anytime you have an open invitation, anytime you have anything you want to talk about, I'm here for you. All right, fantastic.

All right.

We were back and we were talking about raw and I want to talk about that sheet scene. We get a little bit. There's a moment between her looking at Andrea and playing the game that we're talking about, and that other moment where she's dancing in front of the mirror. You cut back to a room and there's a sheet over a shape, and then the sheet blows away and

A lot of stuff in this film which tends to move between real and surreal, and just like sliding back and forth between them that your initial response is, oh my god, it's another one of these stupid hazing things. And then when she throws the sheet off and wakes up, I felt like that was her sort of nightmare of how she was physically feeling and whether it was withdrawal.

My thought was it was a dream, but I think it is a withdrawal, and it is like a hallucination from the withdrawal dream hallucination withdrawal because also I don't know if you noticed, but there's a couple of times when the rash comes back on her and when she's at one point using her sister's medats medicine cabinet. She notices that her sister has the same cream, and so that has to be like when they're in withdrawal, that rash,

I love the echo to of her with all that blue paint and when she's washing herself off, and we're going to get kind of the mirror image of that, almost the negative image of that with her sister later on when after she kills Adrian spoilers after she kills Adrian and she's covered in blood, and Justine's kind of last real act that we see with their sister before she's in jail is cleaning her off, getting all the blood off of her, as opposed to hear with Justine

And again she goes to something that people can identify with, and this hays like the hair is something that that gross feeling of having hair in your mouth, but also if you accidentally bite your lip, or if your lips are too dry and they crack open like you can.

Chunk of bit.

I feel like she keeps it at a level where we can identify with it easily, and that in many ways makes it a stronger thing because we do go, oh wow, I know what, that's disgusting, that hurts.

I really appreciate too that it is the end of this whole hazing time when the discovery of Adrian's body happens, that we hear those little honks from the horn, and you get those beautiful shots of the campus again going back to that brutalist architecture, and you get some war shots now off some of the students kind of coming out.

It totally, it totally is that's really that's a really great reference.

Totally.

Yeah, especially the way she feels the blood, because I think in The Godfather that's how he realizes. It's feeling the wetness that makes him realize there's something wrong. But that scene was incredibly well done, and you wasn't there also blood on her face. I don't even know if she sampled some of his flesh or or not.

I don't think she does. She's got blood on her face, but it's from the bite from her sister.

From just from the bite.

The way she discovered it was she was reaching under the cover. She was like caressing his body, and then she suddenly pulds her hand out and her hands covered in blood, and then she starts She actually embraces him and says she's sorry because she thought she did it. So she then starts messing with the body, and that's how she gets blood on herself.

I thought, there, you see something earlier, but I I don't know. But the sense of also like having these blackouts or not knowing exactly what she've done again kind of takes me back to were wolves because it's that sense of you transform, you do something horrific, and then you transform back, and then whether it's like a defense mechanism that you can't remember, or that it's actually part

Well, yeah, after she finds all that blood, she has it all over her body now and she looks what does she do? She looks at herself in the mirror and starts looking at her mouth and pulling down on her mouth, like what have I done? And she blames herself. And I think that might be one of the last mirror shots until the I would call it a mirror

We have seen in prison fight scenes people biting each other's ear off, so I'm sure she could probably find a way, not that she wouldn't be punished, but I think there would be opportunity to attack your fellow prisoners.

Flipoff that's right after Alexia there's a flipoff and she's showing her bitten off finger like you did this to me, And that actually reminds me of going back again to the Adrian's death scene, the sister Alexis is sitting in the exact same spot where I believe that's the exact same spot where she was eating her finger. It's kind of like, all right, you ain't mi, you sat there in that spot eating my finger.

I'm sitting here. I just killed your love the person you have a crush Sean, which is I don't know.

To me, that's sort of like what's going on because it's I think it's the exact same spot. And then, like you said, yeah, in the scene again it's that competition. But here's my finger that you bit off, here's my cheek that So it's cool all the way that gues back and forth in a really sisterly way.

Well, we've talked about so many times that the movie kind of pulls the rug out from under us. So we are now convinced with Justine that she's the one that killed Adrian and has eaten his leg. And then we find the ski pole which we saw earlier, and then we find Alexia there in that position. I think you're totally right. I think that is exactly where that

Herself, and again that's the werewolf, I think.

Yeah.

To me, the way she has the blood all over her face is like a little kid who just ate ice cream. Like to me, it's more like she really enjoyed that meal, you know what I mean.

Felt that way to me.

The father talks about Alexia as like she was the one who was wild, Like maybe that's the difference between the two of them, in the sense like the mom thought maybe she could control Justine's hunger because she didn't display that innate wildness to begin with, but they make reference to the fact like Alexia did whatever she wanted, like we couldn't control her as a child, And yes, so that reference to her like being the kid with all the jam on her face or something after she's

Feast, and it feels like there's just a momentary fourth wall break at the end when she's talking with her father and she looks up and I think it's supposed to be her looking at her father, looking him in his eyes, but the way that she raises her eyes, she kind of looks more at us. And then it's funny that the father really gets the last word and is the last image with those massive scars all over

Oh I love it.

Oh okay, please tell me what you enjoyed about that one, because I just had a hard time with it.

It was just weirder like the Love It, but it was still like dealing with this sense of family. So part of what I like about Raw also is that it's really not about cannibalism. It's like zombie films. Zombie films aren't really about zombies a lot of times, or the best ones aren't there about something else. The zombies

My interpretation was that this is what they do. He probably has them.

He's covered head to toe wherever his clothing can cover him.

Yeah, that was the impression I got, And this is how we managed.

She just apparently you don't need that much meat, and they were just nibbling on the dead passengers in the the sister was just nibbling on the brainers.

It does seem like they just need a little bit they don't need to have.

Obviously, even with the leg at the end, Adran's leg is just it's.

Not like she she went to town completely on him.

She ate a lot of that leg, a lot of that.

Seemly they don't need. They don't need a ton of ton of human flesh.

But also if that's like the most she ate of human flesh, that kind of explains kind of her like weird state where it's like when you eat too much food and your stomach's too full and you just can't move. Like maybe those other times she fed, she was trying to be careful and not if you devour the body too much, the hospital people or the emergency crew is going to notice, like, wait, that doesn't look like an injury you would have gotten in a car crash. That

But we were talking about Titane and I was curious, why you enjoyed that one.

I have not seen it in a while. I think one of the things I really liked. I love films where you can't tell where they're going. I like films that surprise you along the way. And again, this film really felt to be about family. This was a father and a daughter in this case, and I just like the way it played with everything and the visuals of the music, and that was also amazing. It was both genre and gender bending, both at the same time, and I just appreciated how it pushed the envelope, like it

The story structure is really aw like it's it's unlike, it's very not a normal story structure. It's there's no it's you know, it's an unfamiliar kind of story structure, which kind of makes it really cool.

Yeah.

Yeah, and I'm glad that a great thing. On that audio commentary where Westwood was asking her, you know, oh, you're gonna, you know, change genres, you know, is it always gonna be body horror? And she's like, you might as well just ask me if I'm gonna start speaking Japanese in a week, you know, Like, no, it's this is what I do, this is what I like. And I'm like, okay, great. You know, to hear that her new film, thank you Susan for turning me on to Alpha.

Yeah, and it's super cool that Justine named Justine pops into Titan Te. It's the same actor, same name, and she even uses the name Alexia.

Again.

I like that too, when directors play with their I'm sure she'll be doing that movie to movie kind of playing with the characters visiting each movie.

Yeah.

Yeah, I didn't look to see if there's a Justine and Alpha's, but I would not be surprised. And Zari keeps saying Alpha's like the TV show with David Strathairn, which was canceled way too soon.

Just one thing I want to bring up, which I couldn't stop thinking of, of this movie that I had seen that's a documentary.

So this Vivie.

It's this fiterary school that is this hazing week. It's so evil and wicked. There's something really ominous about it. And I happen to go to the New York Academy of Medicine because I love science stuff. They sometimes show like weird science documentaries and there's this one. It came out in twenty twenty two called De Humani Corpus Fabrica.

It reminds me so much.

It evokes so much in this movie because it's so visceral still, it's like almost a fred It's like a Frederick Wiseman film where they're it's a slow burned slow just taking in everything in this French hospital, and it's it's not a high class hospital.

It's like a probably a relatively low sees hospital.

But they're filming a caesarean section and you are just watching every minute of this. They're showing someone being prepped for brain surgery while they're awake and their brain is like split open, their heads, their skull is split open. They're showing the psych word and following the patients and listening to them. They're even just like sitting at the nurse's desk and listening. There's like a prostate operation.

It's and it's the way they film it.

Is beautiful, but it's grotesque and it's like that kind of thing. But it has a surprise ending, which I'm gonna say, and if anybody wants to see it, just fast forward a minute or two.

But the surprise ending is they end up in.

This attic where the doctors hang out, and on the wall is this huge mural of the doctor, like past doctors and present doctors in this bacchanalia. They're like pans, they're like drinking and they're having sex and it's crazy. It's like you realized that this hospital has a tradition

It's so weird.

I can't explain to you how weird this movie is, but it really evoke the same feeling of this weird hospital where all these creepy things are going on.

So I highly recommend it. It's really hard to get through.

And people were walking out of that film too because it was so hard, so hard to watch. Yeah, so that's my recommendation for pair these two movies together for your friends.

It's great pairing for pairing.

I would say, also check out I Believe She's French. Also Corley Fargier, who did the substance and Revenge. I also feel like those are body horror films that have a very feminist sland different tone than what I think Julia does, but I think they pair well. And also it gives you, i think, a little sense of this kind of extreme French horror from a feminine side.

I just found her earlier film Reality Plus, which I look forward to seeing. I haven't seen Revenge, but I did finally just watch the Substance. I'm still not sure what I think about it, because it's just it's such a strange film, you know, about the objectification of women, that really objectifies to women throughout the entire thing. I'm like, I really never thought of Margaret Qually as being just this incredibly hot, but there's I'm feeling the vapors as I'm watching this.

You know, I just looked that it kept upping the ante, like you think you've come to the end, like Okay, it's not going to go any further than this, and then it does, and then okay, it can't find another level to go to, and then it does, and then all right, we're and it does. And so I appreciated that.

All right, we're going to take another break and play preview for next week's show. Right after these brief messages.

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That's why we'll be back next week when they look at al Yukarda. Until then, I want to thank my co host Susan and Beth. So Beth, what is the latest with you, ma'am?

As usual, I'm working with film Geek San Diego and we are doing our programming at Digital Gym Cinema, so we are rounding out the end of our year of international horror and neo noir, so that's pretty exciting for us. We also do Bonkers half assed Midnights where we show some bonkers films, not quite at midnight, but we get you out by midnight and we'll be looking for what our theme will be for twenty twenty six for films there.

And Susan, what's happening with you?

I'm still writing somewhat. I just fort a piece on statistics and comics. So I'm a little bit different, a little bit in different world lately. I'm in academia.

I'm going I went back at a very very very late age to.

Get a PhD in developmental psych I'm in my second year and I highly recommend Millie which people do it.

Just do it.

It's a good time to do it.

And so anyway, I wrote a piece for It's called Nightingale and it's the publication of the Data Visual Society something like that, and it's a cool little piece with Andrew Gelman about statistics and comics, which is fun film.

People like comics too. That's what I'm doing, like helping kids, like learning about kids in digital culture. So it's really fascinating.

I'm just glad you survived the hazing.

It was very gory and it did not have to do with rabbits kidneys, but it had to do with things that I'm not going to talk about.

Well, thank you again ladies for being on the show, and thanks to everybody for listening. Want to support physical media and get great movies in the mail, head over to scarecrow dot com and try Scarecrow Video is incredible rent by mail service. You'll find films there entirely unavailable elsewhere. Get what you want when you want it without the scrolling,

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