Episode 755: Return of the Jedi (1983)

Oh ye, folks, it's showtime.

People say, good mind to see this movie When they go out to a theater they are cold sodasarn in the monsters in the protection.

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Cut it off, y, Return for the climactic clash between the forces of good and evil. Return to a galaxy far far away. Return of the Tedi the next chapter in the continuing Star Wars saga. The battle for freedom rags arm, the heart of a hero, the courage of a rebel, the strength of a leader, the loyalty of comrades, the power of the horse.

The cunning of the enemy. The destiny revealed.

Is the fad of Father, a legend fulfilled, an epic of heroes, villains, and aliens from.

A thousand worlds crap.

The quest continues, the circle closes, The saga lives on. Return of the Jedi begins May twenty fifth at a theater in your galaxy.

Welcome to the Projection Booth. I'm your host, Mike White, join me once again as mister Jamie Benning.

Hello, how are you doing, Mike? Good to be back.

Also back in the booth is mister Stephen scarlatta, Yo, thank you for having me. Sci Fi July continues with a look at Richard Markwan's Return of the Jedi, released on May twenty third, nineteen eighty three in the US. That is, the film concludes the original Star Wars trilogy was supposed to be followed fairly quickly by six or nine other films. Instead, it was followed by two Ewok films and some other infrequent bones thrown to fans by lucasfilm.

It was one of my very sort of formative experiences. I lived in a little town, a little village southeast of London, and on my seventh birthday in June nineteen eighty three. I was taken to London by my parents, and my sister joined us, and my aunt and uncle, my cousins joined us as well, and we went to Hamley's at the big toy store on I was spoiled rotten.

And Stephen, how about yourself?

Uh yeah, I first saw it in the theater. I was a huge Star Wars fan when it came out. I was ten when it came out. I vaguely remember seeing the first one and mostly remember Empire waiting in a lobby to see it more than the actual movie.

But when Return was coming out, I was excited. I was at the right age.

I had the Marvel comic that had the entire movie and it It took me a month to finally see it because every time we went to the theater it was sold out or the line was around the corner, and my family was like, no way, We're gonna sit online for like three hours for you to see this thing. So it took like a month and it was hard waiting to Zill see that movie. It was so funny, like maybe when the first Avengers came out, the Marvel movie.

I think my dad.

Found some theater that he heard about that doesn't have long lines, and that's how I finally got to see it. Yeah, I loved it. I was the right age for it, and I ate it all up Man with a Knife from fork Man. I loved it at the time, but throughout the years it became the one I watched the least, and then when I got into film school, when I rediscovered Star Wars. When I was in film schools, when I came to realization, no Empire is my favorite and

For this podcast. I think I saw it maybe opening weekend. Sorry, Stephen, I don't want to rub that in your face or anything.

Because i'd let you Q.

Yeah. Yeah, I don't remember how I got to see it, but I remember it was it was me, it was my folks. I don't think maybe they just dropped me off or some time. I don't remember being there with my folks at all, but but yeah, I remember the movie theater. It was the Southgate Theater that eventually became an AMC, which is eventually now part of the Meyers Parking Lot Meyers thrifty acres for folks that are outside

Why.

The biggest thing for me was Boba Fet when Boba Fett died, and just because I had fallen in love with that character from seeing you know, the Star Wars Holiday special seeing Empire strikes back, the whole thing of Consolo being frozen. I was just so, you know, like

Lando and Skiff God disguised with a little helmet on.

Oh yeah, well, dud, that was my favorite.

That was a great for you.

Yeah, mine was bash. I loved Hells.

You know what Mike is about. You know, like, if you compare anything to the Empire strikes Back, you're going to struggle, right, So imagine if Empire had been a really shitty movie, the Jed I would probably be revered today because it would have been a return to form and it would have been back to the formula and the stuff that we love and all that kind of thing. But when you put it up against Empire, it really

But it does stuff.

But I think because of that comparison to Empire.

I was thinking, like, is it like a Halloween three thing? Like when Empire came out, was it not liked as much? But throughout the years it just gained more fandom.

I think a lot of people were kind of pissed off at the ending, weren't they that it was like such a downbeat ending. You know, you think about Star Wars, it's all tied up in a bow or right, Vaders aren't going off and maybe he's going to be in a sequel kind of thing. But when you get to Empire, it's very dark. You know, it doesn't have a proper ending for people. It isn't like the Bubblegum movie that

But yeah, I still dinner Well, it's all good man.

The first movie felt like it was so poured over, you know, you had even like Brian de Palmer helping rewrite the open Scroll and the re edit, and Marcia having her hand in there. And it probably didn't help that the marriage was kind of on the rocks around this time, so she's probably not as involved as she was with the previous films. I think that's kind of a down thing, also, not having you know, it's just George writing and then Kasden coming in and cleaning things up.

I was asked by George to come up to see him and talk to him about directing which would be the third Star Wars, and I had next door to zero interest. But I always admire George. You know, George is a guy that does what he loves, and I'd do what I love. The difference is what George loves makes hundreds of billions of dollars.

That would have been wild, But I can't imagine Lynch and Lucas's sensibilities getting on whatsoever. But hey, the sound editing would have been fantastic, that's for sure.

I don't want to be down on any of the sound that is. But that whole Lynch thing, you know, he talks about being offered the film and being with George and then being taken upstairs and there's all these drawings and he's like getting this headache and it's getting worse and worse. In a way, I could sort of imagine Lynch doing Empire more than Jedi, because Empire is

Oh yeah, one hundred percent.

I just love his little quote he was like, because it was a Georgia's film, he already designed these little bears and had all this stuff done, and he wouldn't have had control. And I think you could just see more of him in Dune versus we'll ever see it in Return of the Jedi, and we would never get Blue Velvet as like Dino's Apology in a way. You know, Lucas is going to give David Lynch an apology movie after what he puts him through for a Jedi.

It's a real shame that, you know, Mark One didn't live longer, because it would have been interesting to hear his take on it. There's very little of him talking about the movie. I remember when I was making my returning to Jedi film, we mentor you that I dug around for stuff, and at the time, when it was a two thousand and eight something like that, there wasn't much around on YouTube of him talking. There's a few magazine interviews. You know, he did want to do the

I believe he.

Had to say in bringing in Annakin at the ending as a ghost.

I thought, I read that, and I think that might be right.

You know which version of Anakin?

Oh my goodness.

I always think like Luke is going to look over at the end of that special edition and see Hayden Christensen there and go, where the fuck is.

That is this guy? I mean, you know, I kind of get why they did it. It really annoyed me at the time, But now so much time has passed with the prequels existing in the world, I've come to accept that they're not for me. Then they're for another generation. And you know, when Anakin turned up again in some of the TV stuff, in the last couple of years. I think it was in ah Soka. I can imagine they were very excited, those fans, and you know, I can't take that away from them. But at the time,

I went last year to like the fortieth anniversary screening. They had it like over here at the cinema on the x D screen, like their rip off Imax, and I remember sitting down at first, I'm like, I was really excited to rewatch it because like some of my favorite moments in Star Wars are in Return to Jedi. That's why I have like, I appreciate the movie, but man, when they're at jobs Palace in that new musical number starts, oh good Lord.

Oh my god. It was excruciating.

And then you guys shared with me the original cut, which I watched, and I had more appreciation of that, and I was so happy not to experience that sequence again. And the sarlac hid putting in like the mouth. It was just like watching it in the theater. I was so bummed by it. I was like, dude, this is brutal. And then the effects don't hold up as much either in the special edition unfortunately, but watching the version without all that is really good though.

I think the thing is when you see those movies, you want to be reminded of the time that they were made, that they are a product of that time. Right next week on the twelfth, or this week's around the twelfth, they're showing how the BFI here the British Film Institute, they're showing the original nineteen seventy seven Star Wars Die transfer print in stereo and it's been sitting in the arcohol Wow for decades.

I'm amazed they're allowed to show that.

I believe it's gone to the very very top. I won't say any more than that, but I think because the particular festival it's only is the Film on Film Festival, which is about showing Celli Lloyd. You know, they've got the Twin Peaks pilot without the weird European cuts on as well. They've got a couple of nitrate prints of older movies. But Stars is the kind of opening night thing.

Oh wow, that's amazing because I don't think I've ever seen those versions since, like VHS or anything, because like, yeah, like this return version, I haven't seen it in years. You know, this is the first time rewatching it like this because I hate all I mean, Lando breaks the fourth wall when he has to lower his like helmet thing. Yeah, but all the singers when they're singing the gibberish, it's just they're singing it into the frame.

That's where and the tonsils in the back of the throat of that main singer is just like it just that, Yeah, you're right, that stuff doesn't fit. But I kind of see those special editions in a way as an exercise to kind of prove that the prequels could be made. Could we make digital environments, could we make digital characters, and also to fund that as well, because I mean, they made a heck load of money back in what was it, ninety seven, so I can see that as

While I was doing my research for this, I found there was a whole fetish community around Ula. I didn't realize. Yeah, but yeah, there's like subreddits and things just dedicated to her life. What's that rule when something can be sexualized on the internet, Like, she definitely gets sexualized. And I think like her popularity is what really spurned the Ahsoka character, because I don't think that Ahsoka would be Ahsoka without Ula. Oh I didn't know that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Well, the original Return of the Jedi had a few frames taken out of it for the special edition because when she falls into the rank or pit, there is a bit of a moment where her boot pops out, and they shaved off like two or three frames they remember for the special edition. Not that when looking, but I just heard that.

But yeah, you're right. It is just like such the series of set pieces, I mean, the whole thing at Jaba's Palace, I mean that takes up so long. Why didn't they tell C three pm? What was going on? Why is he so fucking clueless? Like he feels like Marcus and Salah in the Last Crusade, where these really competent characters from the earlier films suddenly turned into complete morons, and it just feels like he's a moron through this

No?

I guess not, because Ghostbusters was eighty four. This was eighty three. Right when someone asked you if you're a god, you see yes. But he just feels so stupid in this movie and constantly like what did I do? And like all the slapstickiness, and especially around him, like getting smacked by Jaba, falling off the skiff, like all of these things where it's just like what happened to this character? It just you're undermining yourself.

It's in the same thing happens to Harrison Ford's Handsello as well. He just turns into this dfast as well. It was just like, what's going on? Oh hit Bob a fair, I'll hang on what your brother's sister?

What you know? Come on, tell me what's going on?

I can't tell you?

Could you tell?

Luke?

Is that who you could tell? I'm always taken out of a movie if kind of rules have been set and then suddenly a character does something purely for a little kind of story point that doesn't fit their character, and I feel return the jedif if you refer to the other two movies, some of the dialogue that comes out of those characters' mouths in that movie, or some of their actions just really don't fit with what you understand about them. Yeah, that whole thing at the start

You know?

This is amazing and it you know, I'm fortunate to call Dave Barkley, one of the puppeteers, a friend, and Toby Fillpott as well, and I've interviewed those guys a few times and found out all details about that. I'm you know, I'm far more interested in return to Didi behind the scenes than I'm actually of the movie itself, since maybe I was fifteen or something like that. But

The Java stuff.

There's still some of my favorite things in a Star Wars film. But you're right, watching it this time, I didn't realize how long it keeps going. You just keep introducing characters and it just goes and goes.

And go too.

Luke comes in, and I guess it's due to like so many rewrites they were doing so fast on the movie that it's very off and like you were saying, just like all the characters are off, I don't buy, like you said one hundred percent with Han Solo.

It's not Han Solo.

I don't know if it's the Carbon the Night or wherever the hell.

He's so much softer in this movie.

He's not the Han Solo from Empire, and Darth Vader's not the Darth Vader from Empire. I don't really feel like Luke. I guess his development has to be stronger in this movie. But when he's lurking around Jaba and then threatening him and everything, I don't even buy his threats to Java. Is there just something really off with the characters period? And I think Ley is just there.

But there's a bit in from Stars to Jedi and the Making of a Saga, the big long documentary they released around the time of the Return of Jedi was released, where Richard Markorn is there looking very officious for me. He's got his clipboard and he's obviously got like script or storyboard on it, and Harrison Ford says, okay, I'll try and say it without moving my mouth in case

Going back to what you guys were talking about originally with Empire, going off what you're saying, it's like, I think that's why this movie is so nice is because like he knows this is wrapping up with this one, and he knows the next few things are going to be Ewok movies and the Droid cartoon. He's trying to play it as safe as possible with this movie. It's got to be a success, you know, it's huge and everything has to be played safe. He can't make another

And like what Mike was.

Saying, it's like everything is a callback to Star Wars in this. You know, it's like the opening is the same as the opening of Star Wars with underneath the Star Destroyer and you know some of the stuff you guys gave me where It's like Jab's Palace is the canteena scene all over again. You know, it's like another assault on a death Star. You know, another whole planning scene about the Death Star. It's like we've pretty much another Yoda scene.

You know, Yoda originally wasn't in this.

But the director wanted Yoda in it. It's like everything we've seen before from the previous movie. It's like trying to remind.

You, like, oh, yeah, you love that original movie.

We're going to start again on the desert planet we were already at in the first one.

It's interesting to hear some Mark Hamil interviews where he was sort of talking about knowing what you knew from Empire and the success of that or the relative success of that, and the way the film and the characters would go in he I think he says something like,

Even when you look at the scene of later talking with Wicked, it's basically when Luke is talking to R two and the swamps and or like him meeting Yoda kind of, but Wicked doesn't speak English, so it's almost the exact same thing where Leah is doing this.

Now cha, well, it looks like I'm stuck here.

Trouble is, I don't know where here is.

Now.

I gotta do as fine as Yoda if you even exists.

Can sit down, you want something to eat.

This place gives me the creeps.

I feel like.

Like we're being watched. Oh wait, put your weapon.

I mean you no harm.

I promise I won't hurt you.

Not come here.

The first movie feels like Luke's movie, right. The second movie could be Luke or could be Hans's movie, because they're both equally very important. And then it comes to the third movie and I'm like, well, whose movie is this? It doesn't feel like anybody's movie at this point, So I.

Have Vader or the Empress movie. In a way, they're the sort of biggest character.

Exactly, and I guess it's supposed to be Anakin's redemption. But at the same time, he's been a villain for two films, very vicious villain, and yet now suddenly we're supposed to see good in him, and I'm like, I don't see what you're seeing Luke. And Luke's whole development feels like it takes place between these two movies, because when he shows up, it's like, Okay, to your point, he's making all these threats. I don't feel like he's a badass. I don't feel like he's any sort of

He feels too invincible also in this movie, you know, I don't know what his plan was if R two wasn't there to give him the lightsaber. First, he goes for the gun at doesn't work, And that's the only time you see him kind of vulnerable is the Rank Coors scene.

Because every other.

Scene he's just kind of invincible. It's very odd, you know, I'm never fearing for him at all or anything. And when you see Darth Vader not as himself, like Jamie has that phenomenal film youmentary you sent me and I watched and I was blown away by it. There was a sequence in there where Vader's choking out someone and I'm like, yeah, that's what's missing from this movie, is Vader choking motherfuckers out because you were threatened by him.

You nailed that.

There's something about Luke in this. It feels like they wanted to paint him as getting above his station too early, Like Yoda laughs at him, so certain are you? He says about being a Jedi and that, and then Harrison Ford or hand Solo should say, has that line, which again doesn't fit his character. I've been out of it for a little while and everybody gets delusions of grandeur.

For most of I don't want to be this guy, but I don't need to see every scene of connection materials, YadA YadA. But it always feels and this is such a minor quibble, but I'm going to bring it up anyway. It always feels to me like the scene where he turns himself into the Imperial Guards and they bring him to Vader. Not seeing him turn himself in is a missing opportunity to see how he would handle himself in

It feels like the writing is inefficient in a way. You know, it doesn't ring true like it does, particularly an Empire and also in Star Wars. But yeah, you're right, if you hadn't have turned up, he would have just got one little croak ten minutes later and that would have been it for Yoda. But again, it doesn't feel

Now?

Okay, they're escaping the desk Star when Yoda dies, I think he has that moment, doesn't he. Where he says to ar To, I don't think I can do it. I can't do it alone. Then Ben Kenobi arrives, that's a whole other thing. But I don't feel his vulnerability at that point as much as I did when Obi Wan died. I still love this movie.

Oh no, it's all good. I'm now trying to call you you are moron for liking this movie.

No, no, not so.

I just you know, it is one of my favorite movies still because it's dumb and it's part of my childhood. But you know, when you're a kid, these things passed you by, all these little pot points and things and character changes and things that don't feel right in the character. But it's not until you get older you stop picking it upart but you never hit people do this with Empire.

Just all the stars aligned for Empire to make it perfect. Lawrence Kasden, the director taking more control because Lucas was so overwhelmed by everything.

And the dop as well. I mean, Peter Sushitski looks amazing. Empire hurts the other producer, Kurts.

I think he got a different producer for this one, which Lucas had his hands all in this one for sure versus Empire, and not saying Lucas is, you know, incredible, But I think there was just all these elements in that. And then I think it was also that Kasden had Kirshner's back more. And then when it comes time for this movie everything Hasden wants to do, Lucas is like, nope, because Kasin's more in a frame of mind of Empire.

Well, hell, Harrison Ford was first in line. He's like, yeah, kill off my character please. It was funny because when they what was the New Star Wars movie he was in where he died. Was that Arsa Aikins. Yeah, And I remember right before the movie came out, I tweeted, because it was still Twitter back then, I tweeted, Oh, I really like the New Star Wars movie. It's such a shame that Han Solo dies and people were out for me for blood, and I was just like, I

Yeah, I had that same guest. I remember saying to my wife, is the only reason Harrison's going to have returned to this movie because he wants to be killed off? Yeah, because there wasn't another version of the script as well, where you know that Blast is chasing them out of the Death Star and there's that little second have they perished or oh no, here's the Falcon and the X

It's not surprising that you said James Bond because I actually had James Bond in mine. Maybe it's because I've been doing the ranking on Bond podcast, but I really had James Bond in mind as far as those set pieces, and especially some of the set pieces that go, in my opinion, on for too long. I like the idea of the speeder chase through the forest Moon of Indoor. I really like that, and I like the way they shot it. It just feels like it goes on for a little too long, kind of like a lot of

I should say Yeah, there's also that bit with the speed of bike when the Scout Trooper. I love that design, by the way, the Scout shoop. Oh, I'm with you on the speed of Bikes. That was Nila rotis Jimiro, who again I'm happy to say as a friend of mine, he's actually sending me something very cool this week. Just to quickly aside, I've interviewed him three times now and we've become quite chatty on WhatsApp, and he sent me a load of drawings that he did original drawings for

Oh.

He made the design of this thing called the Yuzz'm, which I think is the guy that sings in the special edition. But originally it's just in Jamber's palace like leaning up against towards this little guy with like little pipe cleaner arms and a fuzzy kind of body. He was sent one of them by Regal Robot and he's like, I don't want it, I'm sending it to you. Jamie so I'm getting that in the post this week, which should be fun.

I noticed him too during that making of Just Mike said it to us, and I was like, oh, he was a character in I't know he was a character until the special edition.

But keep going. I'm sorry he mean to interrupt you.

No, no, that's fine. And Nilo said to me that because he did some little sketch cards to go with this model, and he said, you know, I got through like half a dozen of these drawings and then I realized I was bored. And that's why we didn't develop that character, because it was a dumb character. It is

That's incredible.

A lot of these organics are grounded, real world sounds, and then when you hear the Tarzan call and the spinning speeder bike, it just feels like we're in a tech avery kind of environment.

It gets silly, man, the movie just gets silly. That's odd.

I mean because it was for kids. Because I was thinking about the third Indiana Jones movie at the trilogy, the Crusade. It's like they did the same thing. You had this dark temple of doom, and then all of a sudden they're like, all right, now, let's put Indiana Jones back as a teacher. You like that, you know, you like the Nazis, Let's bring them back. You know

I was like, Oh, there's.

Actually like regular as humans hanging out behind all these you know, there's that weird monster just chill and not doing anything. I was like, who all these people gathered here?

You know, like you're talking about, why is Boba there? I mean, it must be a happening place.

He's just hanging out.

Lots of musical acts there, that's for sure. Hey, Jaba loves his mutancy. I come here for the entertainment.

And it certainly feels like returned. The Jedi is jabbasine compared to the Cantena scene. It feels like in Jedi is far more sort of performative. They're all like coming towards the camera behind Luke, and you know you've got Claptu there going like this, and the gammery and guards kind of stomping around, Whereas in Star Wars, you know, they're in their booths, they're having their own chats, and then when the lightsaber thing happens with Kenobi, they will

Did think it was interesting this time around watching the Jabbazceine. I guess the bib Tuna dude. Once Luke does the Jedi mind trick on him, he does kind of disappear in the back and see three PM steps forward like he It kind of shows Jaba, like how he treats the droids and when he's done with someone, he just discards them, and you can kind of see it with that.

Bitt.

It is one of my favorite characters. I mean, just the way he speaks in that kind of like pig Latin are two daytoa type of stuff.

And he swears like the second he's on screen, like he calls jab bowanka and I remembers like a teenager going, WHOA hang on a minute, did did you just say that?

It's such a great design too, you know? Yeah, Like I've always teeth.

I was fascinated by his action figure too as a kid.

I think that's yeah, because the figure kind of looked wet as well, didn't it. It looked kind of slimy and wet.

Yeah. And I also wanted to take his head tail thing and straighten it out and stuff. I love those types of figures, you know, where you can actually interact with them a little bit more ones with the helmets, yeah.

The robe and the kind of chest piece underneath in the Yeah, and the staff with this sort of spindle on it.

Yeah. I love that meme that's going around where it's the I can't remember what movie it's from, where the girls like to say those three words three.

Words I'm yours.

They were no longer thank you.

That's all I needed to hear.

I do know.

I think of that actor Michael Carter bit Fortuna. I think of him every time I go on the underground, because he's the guy in American Wealth in London that's chased through the underground.

Oh really.

If ever, I'm in a tube station in London and it's kind of quiet, I feel like I'm in that movie which scared me for years when I was a kid, and I think of him.

Yeah, staying with Jaba's Palace a few more minutes. Seeing Book of Bilbafet really recast the rank or keeper who apparently showed up in Book of Bilbeffet, but I didn't realize it was the same character. But like this whole thing of how the bond between a rank or keeper and the rank corps, and like when he cries after the ranker monster is dead, I'm just like, now I feel totally bad. Like when I was a kid, I was just like, Oh, isn't that funny this guy's crying

It feels like at some point they said they wanted sise Noodles in the Rebo band to start up on that big scream, and they wanted it to match with somebody else screaming, Okay, let's make a droid do it, and nobody went to droid's scream. You know, do they feel pain? It's just they put that idea together and off they went. Maybe George wasn't on the set that day.

We're talking about how characters might die. I mean, when Han Solo looks at the Millennium Falcon and he has us, I don't know, it's just a strange feeling. I'm never going to see her again, that never comes back whatsoever. And that's like this moment of pathos where I was like, oh wow, yeah, something bad might happen, but don't worry. Nothing bad happens.

It's probably when Lando was due to die, right exactly, Yeah.

And get mon Matha and her thing where she's just like, oh many bothans died to bring us this information, and you're just like, oh, fuck man, that sounds like really intense, Like give me that movie. Don't give me Rogue one, give me the Bothens that are dying because of this. Like that's what I want to see, is like these Bothans.

Well that's much later, of course, isn't it. Yeah, for a return of Jabdi. But I tried to recut a trailer once I'll make a Return of the Jedi trailer to make it dark. So I died with every hero has a journey or something. I was sort of mirroring the early prequel one, and I picked a bit of dialogue. You know, there's that bit of dollar where Hansally says, you're throwing away a fortune here, don't be a fool

I don't know if you could save it from the ewarks, though, yeah, we all wish.

That they were Wookies right at the time when George was talking about the Wookies. But then we saw the Wookies in one of the prequels and it's Revenge of a Sith. Revenge of the Sith. It was pretty bad.

I love that movie though.

That's my third favorite Star Wars movie.

I gotta say. But that's why I won't ever be hard on you say and you like Jedi, because I get it. I have my revenge.

This that's my third favorite. It just got re released and my friends want to see. I'm like, it's so good, like hatting and blowing me off.

It's great. It did really well. It got like in the top five movies week, Hid in the Chops.

Oh did he over here too? And then it was gone in a week later.

I wasn't able to go see it. I was so bummed that was just a week release.

But going back to what you were saying about the Lando and the Millennium Falcon, what I always got from that scene was him telling there won't be a scratch on it, and then you start seeing it get messed up. It turned into like that Corey Haym Corey feld Me movie License to Drive, where he has he.

Starts messing it up again, it just goes silly.

I just think the first half of this movie with Jaba and the Starlac pit and all that stuff, but then once they start getting on. I love the speeder bike scene though too. It's one of my favorite things. But after that is when I start to tune out. I mean, even though one of my favorite shots in the Star Wars movie is the POV from the cockpit with all the tie fighters coming at it, that's probably one that in the Star Destroyer crashing it to the other those are some of my favorite moments from a

And I think that's how it is. What a lot of adults.

Mentioning those battle scenes at the end, you know, some of the best battle scenes in those Star Wars movies and even some of the late ones. The complexity of some of those shots. There's a documentary which I'm sure

Well, even just the shots of the Ewok encampment where you've got the three or four different planes of action and you see them in the trees and everything. I was just like, that's really gorgeous because I think of something like, you know, Fellowship of the Ring and they do something similar with when they come to Ribondll and you just see like, oh, yeah, here's this fore ground,

Some of the best matte paintings in the I would say, you know, Mike, Mike Pangrats, you know, Chris Evans and I think Harrison Ellershaw might have done some as well, but yeah, some of that. Whenever you see those posters online like these are matte paintings, there's always a thousand people going, wow, I didn't know this was a mate painting. It's such an amazing sort of lost art.

In a way. Leader's entrance into the movie with all of the troopers there, and you're just like, that's a mate painting. Like the guys that are moving are all real, but then all these stormtroopers standing here, I'm just like, holy shit, that is amazing that you could do that.

The concept of that Death Star just half built. I think it's iconic.

It's gorgeous.

Yeah, it really is a nice design. There's some fantastic designs in this film. They feel like they belong, don't they that Every kind of even the speed bikes you could, oh yeah, they feel like Star Wars instantly. I think, you know, having those same design as through the trilogy, you know, Nilo and the others, Joe Johnston and yeah, just.

Even having Joe Johnston and Ralph mcquarie doing those paintings, I mean, it's amazing. Now when I watch some of the newer Star Wars stuff, and I'll be like, oh, I've seen that before. Where have I seen that? And then I think back to those old paintings from seventy seven to eighty eighty three, and I'm just like, that's

Oh yeah, I think the Mandalorian used like concept art from Empire dyn used with like the ice spiders or something.

And what that's right, Yeah, that was a mcquarie, wasn't it.

When you watch all the making of and then you know this little book where you just see like the bibfit, you know, whatever made it on screen, there was concepts before it, a number of concepts before it that got there.

All the concepts are amazing.

Also, it's just like, but you know, they just couldn't pull it off yet.

We should probably address the elephant or the bantha in the room and talk a little bit about the sister and just this whole from a certain point of view, And yes, there is another kind of thing. That was the thing I was talking about in that people just don't believe when you tell them how much Star Wars changed from beginning to end, because somehow George seems to have sold it that he knew exactly what he was doing from the beginning, and I'm just like, no, that

Yeah, I think you're absolutely right about George, you know, and him kind of changing his mind with you. All you got to do is look at those annotated scripts in that book and look at any interviews he gave early on. Yes, he had plans in his mind to make multiple movies and relogies potentially, but he was mixing and matching ideas, you know, and that's what he did. And you know, like every creative endeavor, you have to think on your feet on the day and try and

Rewrites that he'll see, You'll tell Luke.

Caudi another unhandshole of the moment. But where I find fasting about the other thing is I was too young when I saw an empire in the theater to catch the other line.

It wasn't until like the.

Secret History of Star Wars, when I listened to that book over and over again. I realized, like how people were like, who is the other? And listening to that book, it's about oh, because George was going to do another trilogy and the other was going to be carried on.

I was back when I still called Revenge of the Jedi.

On May twenty fifth, nineteen eighty three, the firm begins plans for the next trilogy of films in the nine part saga, you know, so they were ready to go with it, and I guess he just got so burnt with Jedi and just knew it's gonna be a nice movie and we're gonna have the Ewok stuff, and he doesn't want to do him anymore. But and then that's when the other turns into Princess Leia. It was like, Okay, now I can turn her.

Into this other.

But I guess people were so upset buck in that for waiting three years to find out who the other was. I was too young at the time, so but that stuff. I was all learning from secret history of Star Wars. But I'm And then they said in this Starlog article that they were gonna do the sequel trilogy in reverse order.

They were gonna do three, two and then one. Wow, yeah, I have it right, I'm looking right at it.

That wasn't Starlog, so they did when it was Revenge to Jedi before it turned into Return.

They still had thoughts of.

Making other Star Wars movies, but then some maybe it was the divorce and everything where he was just like, this is maybe ruining me and I want to keep doing Star Wars is maybe the technology is not where I want it yet, and I'm going to take some time off.

I'm going to make a lot of experimental films. Now that's my dream. Where Sho got yeah, yeah, we got Howard the Duck.

That's kind of experimental, and Tucker.

I tried watching those two Ewach movies today.

Holy shit, I haven't met That was probably my worst cinema experience as a kid. I remember saying yeah, yeah, and my parents said, oh yeah, We've got surprise for you, and they gave me this tick and I was like the Star Wars like wow, and I'm sitting there going where's Luke, Where's Hans Solo, where's Princess Leia?

What is this thing?

And I remember walking out of the cinema and I was that eighty five, so I would have been like eight or nine years old. I think it's the first time I really experienced like the proper disappointment because where are my favorite characters. I want to see the further adventures of these people, you know, where is it?

Yeah?

The old look is good either, right, the euarks in there.

No, they were made pretty cheaply, you know, and they were made or it's like the other thing you think about Jedi, you know, as opposed to the other two. You know, the first one they went to Chinisia. They went to the UK of course to shoot an Elstree. Second one they went to Fincer in Norway and then back into the UK. Obviously also Elstreet's returned to Jeddo.

Yeah.

Yeah, maybe that was a budgetry thing as well, or just to you know, you can kind of understand why Lucas ended up doing so much digitally because all of the pain he went through his sets being blown away and flooding and white outs and snowstorms and all of that stuff. I can totally understand it.

With the Sands storm that didn't get included.

But I did the shark documentary Shark Exploitation. When I interviewed Carl Galtlieb and Joe Alves, they boil said and swear by they wish they could have done CG with the shark. They were like, you know, even though we love that fucking shark, we love it and we wouldn't want a CG. But according to them, they're like, in a second, that's what they wish they had because they're the ones that were in the trenches dealing with it and the stress and the harp.

But they in a second, we'd want to do a CG One Shark.

Absolutely. I mean, I'm making this Joe Al's documentary, have been for a couple years and we're going out to Martha's Vineyards next week to shoot some stuff with Joe. And what's the line Joe said, you know, you might as well give it a go because it's going to be the best there is because nobody else is trying it, you know. And that's how they kind of approached George.

Yeah, that's sail bars and then the Sarlac set that they did. It is huge and it'sn't seen to wrap your head around that they built all that.

I hate this whole thing that we have to go back to tatuin why was Jabba? We don't have the scene of him coming to the docking bay and threatening hand Solough in the world that the three of us grew up and that scene didn't exist. I was job on tattooing, Like why couldn't his palace have been someplace else? And it just feels like we keep coming back to tattooing and like all of these even when it's not tattooing.

Center of the universe, you're on the planet that is farthest.

From classic line. This is the backwater burb. But instead it becomes the center of the fucking universe for all nine movies. And you're just like, for christis, can we get away from tattooing? Thank God? They don't go back to tattooing in an empire. Use some other planets, man, Let's go see some other places. But this is just like, all right, we're back here. We're doing this again. And you know, basically, they replace Darth Vader as a bad

Like, I'm afraid the deflector shield will be quite operational when your friends are right.

Oh man, the way he's just mocking Luke, I'm like, Okay, that's pretty good. I like that and like mcderman's voice, especially in this movie.

I think it's the best sort of version of the Emperor. I think in the pre cause it just feels like he's wearing this really big kind of prosthetic and it all feels a bit fake where he's sort of hooded and you don't quite you see his piercing eyes, but you don't get kind of good look in. I think that's a good thing In Jedi. I quite like the Emperor. It's a terrible action figure. I remember sending off like

Those little Kenner proofs of purchase. Well, and then it had the electric like plastic thing that you could put on it so it looked like force the original I didn't have that either.

Ninety Yeah, this one was just like the walking stick and a gray thing with a face. That was it, and the cloak was plastic. It was no, they didn't give you it was the moment, wasn't it.

Yeah?

Why were jawas the best action figures because they had the cloth cloaks.

I had another Ben Canobi and I painted it like gray and put Luke's Jedi robe on him and that was my Emperor nice.

I was so cussed up with that much better. Well, you're talking about tattoo in. I mean it was going back to what I was talking about with Raiders of the Lost Stark. I think they just want to remind people everything from the first movie again somehow by putting it back there. That's my only thought of why they wouldn't put him somewhere else. Yeah, because, like you said, it doesn't you know, you could just call.

It a difference. It doesn't have to be that play.

You're right, And there wasn't there something in some of the early scripts that Luke was going to go back to Ben's house to try and discover something about building a lightsaber, and you know, so you've got that, so then when they remove that, it's like I was talking about earlier, They're like, okay, so we're still on tattooing, but we're going to do this now, So where's the motivation to go there anymore? It doesn't make any sense.

That makes sense. When I was talking about the cave, I was thinking, oh, that kind of looks like Ben's house, But they don't ever short from the other angle inside the cave looking out.

It is a cave in that instance, because there's a matte painting that was unused that had like a little cut out for R two and three PO and you could see the X wing and presumably the Y wing the layer and two ear arrived in. Yeah, I think again, it's like each time they sort of change their mind on how a scene was going to work or who was going to be involved, they forgot the original intention of why they were there in the first place, and therefore it loses its meaning.

Well, Yeah, like in your film Dementary, you had this whole thing about prune faced action figure characters that were supposed to be on endoor, and I'm like, why weren't they on endoor helping the fight and stuff like that? That's kind of disappointing.

I never noticed those guys, Thank you, jam Neither did I those guys.

Yeah, you know, to watch Jamie's film and Dementary, it's fucking phenomenal. Instead of watching a return watching Return of the Jedi, watched that.

Returning to Jedi still on Vimeo. But I remember when there was that sort of little resurgence of Star Wars, the sort of the dark times. I remember about nineteen ninety one going to Forbidden Planet here in London, and there was a fanzine there called the UK Star Wars Fan Club, and it was a black and white fanzine. I think I had a color cover, but it's all

Really, let's go ahead and take a break in them. We'll be back to talk about those dark times and maybe talk about the unmasking of Darth Vader as well. If we're talking about disappointments anyway, We'll be back in a few minutes with an interview with producer Jim Bloom right after these brief messages.

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I wanted to ask you about Jedi, especially because your title changed between Empire and Jedi, and I was curious as far as how did your fonsibilities changed between the two films.

On the Empire Strikes Back, I was originally hired as an assistant producer and then because of my responsibilities and my work, Gary came to me with I'm sure George's blessing and said, you've done such a good job, we want to make you an associate producer and have you share that title with Robert. Robert was one of the great men. Originally when we were hired, because Gary offered me a job as an assistant producer, that was my title, you know, which could mean a lot of different things.

I need to talk quicker, just just give me a.

And I also tend to jump around to quite a bit I had gone to In the spring of seventy seven, I went to visit Gary in his office at Universal, and he because I had stayed in touch with him over the years, and he was kind of like a mentor to me, and I enjoyed talking to him, and if I needed a piece of advice he would often

I want you to help me.

I want you come to London. I want you to go on location and help me make this movie because it's going to be bigger and you'd like you were around.

And it was like whoa.

And I remember saying to him, you know, I said, Gary, you know I always thought at this point in my career, I might sort of turn my attention to becoming a

And he was right.

There wasn't anything. You know, I learned so much working on those movies, and I've learned a lot about producing movies as well, and an incredible amount of visual effects because my first part of working on Jedi was to move ILM from Dan Eyes up to Santa Fell and to hire all the guys that I brought up who had worked on Star Wars up to Santa Fell. You know those guy guys when you think of the core

You could just you couldn't see.

And we were we were in these snowcats, and we were following.

The way the cross country skiers did.

The Norwegians just go out and go, but they tie themselves and they go from poll to get up to the glacier, to get up the mountain or go where they were doing, because there are a lot of dangerous grasses are But we couldn't move a unit up there and work. And I mean we always used to joke that, you know, they would serve pasta for lunch and from the time got from the plate to your mouth, it was frozen, you know, or you take a pee in the time that the pe hit the snow, it was frozen.

We're making a sequel, but it's going to be better.

It's not going to be shitty, because most sequels were crappy and this was shitty. So when Empire was over, George came to me with Howard Kazangian, and first it was Charlie Weber, but anyway, they said, we want you to be a co producer on Jedi, you know, and there be two of you, you and Robert be in

The Killer or Leading.

You know, I knew what it was like to do a studio movie, to do independent movies out of LA how talented. You know, the movie business was in Los Angeles, it wasn't in San Francisco, and so but I had to kind of covel a group together that had the chops to do a movie like Jedi. So the responsibilities changed.

And it's not that much different.

You know, you got different groups, but everybody's contributing the movie, and the scheduling is a little bit different, and so I brought that skill set with me to Empire.

So I hired a guy who I.

Had worked with on the Streets of San Francisco TV show, who lived up there, who knew a lot of the local guys, and I also hired him because I knew he could make a deal with the local union rep too, because we kind of had to do that in order

Do the work that had to be done.

And when it came to like.

Grip and electric and stuff, we mostly worked with local guys out of San Francisco under their contract, and the LA guys would come up and work under the Sam Francisco contract and it got worked out. So you know, I did a lot of that stuff. And then on Jedi after production was over, the guy who I hired from streets of San Francisco was like, I can't deal with these visual effects guys. They're just it's just too much for me. With their official effects guys are different

Over a few weeks. Dick said, you're here.

Thank you.

It's been fun, but I'm out of here.

You don't need me.

You do it, you know it, you understand it better than I do.

I don't enjoy it. I'm taking off. So he left and then I took over at ILEM and we put the picture out, and back then it was a very difficult, complicated movie to do because we're doing stuff that nobody had done before. So those are different responsibilities. And when Empire was over, I didn't want to spend my life running a visual effects facility. I wanted to be a film producer. I didn't want to be a visual effects general. Manager, and George wanted me to stay on and run the place.

Going to find two days.

And I went into a meeting with Steven's office with the first assistant director, Truck Myers is a great ad and I was his second. And we gave Stephen the board and we said, Steven, we don't know where to find two days. Here's the board. And Steven said, give me the board. And we handed the board to Steven and he took the board. He went and he shook it.

Let's go.

He knew that once they got into it and they were making the movie, they're not going to stop him.

There's no way then.

You know. The thing that I learned when I went to work at Sony as a creative and production executive was the filmmakers tell you eighteen, and the executives tell the corporation twenty, you know, and everybody's got a buffer built into this thing that you're doing so that they all look good. Well, it's just a that's a fucking game. The Grid would have been a really great movie, particularly because of the time. I love time travel and science fiction type stuff, and one of my favorite movies is

I can Berkley and when.

I came out to cal and went to school, I used to go to the film markive all the time and watch movies and hang out in the projection booth with the projectionist and watch movies, or go down and see movies and our remember Us where I first saw Loge Italian. That just blew me away. It's like, it's a great movie. I just love the story. I just love the love story. You know, a guy who dreams,

And then they grab him.

Because he's got this intense dream quality about him and they need somebody who's a dreamer that they can send to the past or to go figure out what's wrong. Anyway, I just thought it was a great idea. There were like the qualities about that that Halm Matthew borrowed to do the Grid. It was a love story and there's a woman in the present and a woman in the future, and you know they're trying to solve a problem. All the stuff just looked great. You know, the stuff that

Was like WHOA One difference as well between the two films was Gary Kurtz. He mentioned that he was kind of a mentor to you. How was that not having him on the production of Jedi?

It was different.

Gary and George had a falling out, you know. I think it's well documented that Empire went millions of dollars over budget because of lots of different reasons. Georgie decided he didn't want Gary to be the producer on Jedi, so we hired Howard. And then Howard came in and it was fine. It was different, you know, very different guys, different producers, different backgrounds, you know, different sensibilities, you know, all those things. But from my point of view, it

Did you interact with Richard Markuan that much?

Well?

I did, yes, And I think it was a tough show for Richard because we sort of took a director with not the experience that like a Kersh had and put him into George's world. So he always would look to George, say what do you think, what do you think? And so that was part of you know, I don't think he quite understand visual effects the way that George did at all. So that was also a challenge to

And but yeah, I did.

I liked Richard, but I think it was a tough assignment, but certainly one that he was happy.

To take on it.

Who wouldn't be happy to take on And you want to be a millionaire come direct these movies. I mean that's kind of like a crass bottom line, but you know, it's the movie that you know, it is a business after all, and people think that way. You know, not only that, but it's also you want to, you know, come direct a sequel to the two most successful movies of all time or top five or whatever it is. It's like, how does the director say?

No?

They usually don't unless their last name is Spielberger says, or you know what I mean?

And that wasn't Richard.

I mean, I don't know how many features Richard had done before. You know, he did Iye of the Needle, which is a good movie, and I think the movie that attracted him to George.

I know, with so many producers, so much of it is solving problems, and I was curious as far as some of the problems that you had to solve while you're making this, from.

My point of view, is logistical through. That was the really first challenge for me was putting a unit together without being able to call on all of the key people out of Los Angeles and keep the quality of the work up to where it had to be to make a Star Wars movie.

That was a big issue.

The other issue was initially was finding the locations. Okay, we want to go shoot in the desert, where do you do that? In the United States, and you know, we looked all over Robert and Norman Reynolds. Norman is a great, wonderful production designer and a lovely guy, great guy. We took this reconnaissance for about two or three weeks where we went looking for locations for the desert and

Outside of Arizona.

We built a sailboat that didn't sail in the middle of the dunes, you know what I mean. It's like I remember when we first talked to sailing consultants who we hired to work on the movie, and it's like they said, Okay, what do you want to do? He said, we want to build a sailboat in the desert, and they would look at us like, what, who builds a

That was the name of the group.

And they owned these beautiful trees just south of the Oregon border and between Crescent City and the Oregon border. And our location supervisor for that redwood stuff a woman named Mickey Herman. She had scouted the entire coast of California. She knew every redwood grow from Santa Cruz to the Oregon border. She's seen it all in helicopters. And she hired a local guy up in Crescent City who turned out.

To be a savior as far as finding this.

And he found this piece of property and he knew the people, and they invited U sent And the first day that we went looking through the Redwood location, I remember walking through the redwoods, the thousand year old redwood groves, and walking down into the hill and stepping into fern force that were the ferns were up to my shoulder and seeking into the leaves and all of this gross underneath these huge you know, like near woods type redwoods, And I felt like I'd been transported back, you know,

You know.

It was like we found the redwood planet, and we found these trees that we thought we'd never yet.

It was just amazing.

Those are some of the challenges. Okay, let's go find the locations. We got to do it here in the States because we're not going in Norway for the snow, or not glad of Tornesia for the desert, et cetera, et cetera. Anyway, we found everything, and we had to kind of launch those units and make it all work.

And then we had to integrate a.

UK crew with an American crew because the UK guys were only bringing their keys over, not their all their support people. Had to integrate art departments US Art Department, UK Art Department. And we also had a big second unit up in the Redwoods. We had to put a US second unit together to do all the second unit work, all the Ewok battle stuff without the principles, you know, with walker feet and trees falling over and tree gags

There was nothing less.

I said, no, no, no boring. It's like the Harvest. That boring and the fact that you know you're going to take that and combine it with it wasn't like red harvest or blood harvest. It was like blue harvest.

It's like blue. It's like this passive color, you know what I mean.

It was supposed to put you to sleep, and so that's where blue Harvest came from. And the tagline was supposed to be ridiculous, horror beyond imagination, Like who wrote that line? It's like so cliched, you know what I mean.

Well, speaking of titles, what do you remember as far as the title changing from revenge to return and then.

It was revenge.

And I said to George one day, and maybe other people said the same thing, and I said to him, I don't know if a Jedi would seek revenge. It's not part of the Jedi philosophy. And he went to my George imitation, Yeah, that's interesting. Now, only think about that. You know, within like a week or so, it changes the return of the Jedi. Revenge is a better word for a movie, but it's not what the movie is about.

He said, you're doing a lot with the second unit. Was that George directing that?

No, it was David Tomlin directed that, and David was the first assistant director on Empire and then on Jedi, and he was a good second unit director because when we were shooting the second unit up in the woods, the first unit was back at doing Blues screen work, and because it was with the Principles, George wanted to be with them, so.

He gave the second unit to David. Were with that point was.

Very well versed in the Star Wars universe, having worked on Empire and all of Jedi with. Richard had also worked with some of the greatest directors in the world as well in his career, and he was sort of a really good choice and had directed second unit before. Because the second unit stuff was mostly action stuff with stunt men and battle stuff and special effects, and because he had a good grasp of visual effects at that point, he stayed on to do that, and we were essentially

I've always been so impressive as far as the way that the miniatures match with the rest of that, especially like the logs rolling in the atsdes and all that. It looks so good.

The challenge was not so much matching the miniatures to the real, but matching the real to the miniatures, because most of the stuff that you see is mostly models miniature stuff, either matted into shots or complete shots with just the miniatures in them.

And you know, most of the time.

We did have a full sized chicken walker up there, but it didn't really move it just you know, wasn't really practical to move it around. You can kind of see it, but it was built and designed and created a book. The great detail that the guys in the model shop and the stop motion guys did with Phil Tippett and John Berg and that whole stop motion group that did a lot of the snow walker and the little chicken walker type stuff. I'm sure if that was the name that they finalizes.

Driver.

How'd you even move that thing around?

Or a crane?

You know, then find a spot or it.

You know, it came in pieces.

They bring the pieces down and then get some crane down there or something small to kind of build it up again. That put scaffolding around it and just construct it. It didn't move too much when it was there. I think the viral quill quite a few years prety limited and maybe what it could do, and it didn't always worked the way you wanted it to.

It's like big stuff. Those are tough pieces to move around.

Sounds like a.

Pretty arduous shoot. But did you have fun on it?

I don't know if I ever had fun shooting one of the movies because they're just so difficult and so complex and there are so many pieces and so many elements that you need to keep in mind all the time, but the way it's all being assembled and put together. Ansley enjoyed working with the people that I worked with. And I loved working with George because he's so brilliant as a filmmaker, and loved working with a lot of

You try to create a team. You know, you're putting a team of people.

Together and you make a movie.

You're like making this little army.

It's moving around from place to place and you know, going here and the vaving there and setting up shop and coming in with the trucks and the people and all the blah blah blah, and you know, and you know it's like it's you know, no room for assholes. I mean, that's the way I feel and I don't like working with them, and I don't want them around the movies that I worked on. It's just, you know, it's kind of something I learned from working with George and Carry is that you know that's not.

The way you do it.

You know there's still life. As I got older, the other stuff you learned is that it's a movie.

Be life is life.

Somebody has a family member who's dying, you sort of say, yeah, go take care of your family member for a few days, as opposed to say, well, we got the shot tomorrow morning. It's like, give me a break, because I've seen too many unhappy people who in divorced families because they had this attitude of that the show must go on. Come on, guys, get real. It's not bring surgery. It's movie making. We'll figure out a way to do it. I don't want

It's not worth it.

There's another way to figure it out. But I guess there are other people who don't agree with that philosophy. Directors should throw a walkie talkies. Although I didn't work with too many, I work with life's too short. It's like it's hard enough, let's try and enjoy it while we're doing it.

All right, We were back and we were talking about return to the Jedi, and yeah, that's funny, Jamie. I had in my notes the dark times post Jedi, because we went for a lot of years with nothing. As Star Wars fans. It was, you know, you had those two Ewok movies, you had the Droids cartoon, you had the Ewoks cartoon, but that was about it. There wasn't a whole lot going on. So yeah, you had like Banther tracks and then eventually Star Wars and Cider as

The Christmas eighty four, it must have been. I got the Ewok village and a few of the Ewoks figures, and I got the Rebel Troot Transport as well. I remember my sister got a Commodore sixty four and I was like playing with my Ewox and I'm looking across at this Commodore sixty four and I was ignoring my Ewox and I was going, I want one of those, you know. And that's kind of when I gave up Stars and my mom gave away all my stuff to this really annoying kid down the road. I'll never forgive

No, but you're right, it was disappointing when you finally found out that Return was the last movie. So I think I brought up on when I was on a Dune episode with Mike, like, that's how I got into Dune was because it was supposed to be the next Star Wars. That's why they were That's what the magazines at the time where everything was promoting it for and there was toys, and I'm like, oh, this is the

And you can see it from a different eye, you know, because I had roommates.

We're all smoking weed at the time, and you're watching it now in a different mind frame and rediscovering it and being like, oh shit, my friend's a laser dis player, my roommate, and you're like, dude, this is amazing.

Oh yeah, that Definitive Collection laser it.

Oh yeah, I remember, Yeah, my friend had it and he called it the Defective Collection because there was like missing pieces and the extras were really scant, and just like oh yeah, Like we were excited. We were thinking, like, oh, the Holiday Special is going to be on here, because that was such an important part of our lives growing up.

And do you know, I wasn't aware of the Holiday Special until I started to collect style stuff again, Like in the early nineties. I remember being a toy fair just down the road here and this guy had a VHS obviously boot leg, So what is this? And it said this fills in the gap between stars and the Impire stress back.

I was like, what, there's more like?

I couldn't believe, you know. And I've got home with that same buddy of mine that we discovered since weeks book with and we put it.

In and we were just a few poor guy, Oh my god, what.

Is happening us? Have we just entered another dimension? I'd know, because it never got screened in the UK as far as I know, so it was completely off our radar, never mentioned anywhere in any of the books I had. Have you seen the documentary about the Holiday special?

Oh? A Disturbance in the Forest? Yeah, fantastic. Oh I need to watch that.

I saw it live when it was on as a kid, and for years I thought I made it up or something, because I remember we all gathered around and watched it, and I had a vague memory of it, and I didn't think it was real until like the Internet and later on, when I just like that was a real thing that we sat around there and watched on TV one in my.

Head that cartoon with Boba Fete was like a half an hour long. It was probably maybe like five ten minutes or something like that, but it might have the best thing. Yeah, and I loved him writing the dragon and he had that cool little spear thing and just the voice characterization, like that's right, friend, you know, I loved that. I thought it was great.

Yeah, dude, he was so badass. It was so ripe to be put in an animated world style Wars. And I just feel like, you know, there was that fan a few years ago that did that kind of X wing of tie fight, a kind of battle or something in a kind of an anime style. He was just a fan just with saying, Lucasfilm, give me some word, and that's some of the best stuff I've seen. And I would have loved that as a kid, you know, just imagine that like a weekly series of The Further

I'm sure had I been younger, that Clone Wars cartoon would have been right up my street. Or like there was another one too, not bad Batch, but there was another cartoon that was supposed to be really good Rebels Rebels, thank you. And I think that also would explain a lot of stuff that's going on in the Star Wars universe now that I'm not aware of, because even as a kid like I would hear these things and like

Did you know the only thing I liked about that show was that we were back there. We were back in Jab's palace, and I could look at it again for an angle. That was the only aspect to like today.

He's like Han out of a carbon night man, you just change ye.

Yes.

Every episode had them going in that back to tank for you know, half the episode and flashing back to the sand people, and I'm just like, all these poor sand people they're gonna you know, they got massacred by Anakin. They're probably still talking about it today. I did actually like that show. Unfortunately, I liked the two Mandalorian episodes that they snuck into Book and Bubba fut Phenomenal.

They were great, Yeah, these are good.

Phenomenal.

Yeah, they're really good. Third season of The Mandalorian where it was just like the whole Katie Sacoff thing, I'm like, I'm getting ready to be done with the show.

Guys.

This was originally so great. As soon as they brought Luke in, I was like, oh, please don't bring in Luke. I don't need this to be tied to the Skywalker family anymore.

This is why I loved Andors so much, though, because it didn't need to be Star Wars ultimately, and it's really well written. The sets are amazing, the performances are amazing. It's got a great soundtrack, it's got nods to films that we've all discovered after we fell in love with Star Wars.

I thought that was great.

And you know, I've said to friends of mine who goes stars, never seen one. You know, I don't know why they're are friends, but I said to them, this is the series for you because you can watch this and you don't really have to know anything about Jedis or jah Wars or anything. You can just go in and see it for what it is, which is a great bit of TV. I think those other series they just tried so hard to kind of connect dots in the same way that the prequels did.

You know.

It's like, oh, look, there's a big arrow here to say that was po was built by Anakin's that what.

I was so disappointed by the Obi Wan show because of the layer thing, because for years they were talking about there was gonna be an obi Wan movie, and I was so excited because I thought you McGregor was perfect casting and him getting older to play obi Wan.

I was so hyped.

But then that TV show, it just it puts Princess lay and it's like, why we don't need that, Why can't we just have that Seventh Samurai Adventure?

And Luke was in there as well, wasn't it at the Homestead? I think the little Luke and I do you know? The brother about that show for me was when they have that fight. It wasn't the fight itself, it was that moment where he's half an Akin half Vader and the voice keeps changing. I was like, that should have been in the prequels. That is what we all wanted to see.

Well, that's the problem with the prequels.

For me.

I like the prequels, except I don't like the Phantom Menace. I think the Phantom Menace him being a kid throughout the whole Phantom Menace really rushes the character development in the two other movies. That's the one I'm not a big fan of. I like Darth Maul and I love the pod Race. There sequences and Phantom Menace I like. But I liked Episode two and three way more. But the things I liked about the prequels was at least compared to the later sequels trilogy at least everything was different.

That's why I liked the prequels.

But Episode one bummed me out because I thought it wasted, and again, as a kid too much, I always kind of wish it was like Good Fellas, where we had him as a kid for twenty thirty minutes and then we got to see him gradually grow up. But that would make it a completely different movie.

The second movie feels like such a waste to me. That feels Attack of the Clones. It feels like a detective movie that I just don't care about.

Where it's you didn't get it, it doesn't make any sense.

Yeah, well, I'll be ones trying to figure out who's building these clones, who's ordering these clones. There's this whole thing about you know, Darth Sidious and then Darth's who was that Chrisopher Lee played to count count do you? But he also has a Darth name. He might be Darth Tyrannus or something. I don't know, Count dou Killa the rush to make him Darth Vader in the last five minutes, I was like, no, no, no, Like the

Whatsoever, Dude, It's all good Chris for years that I get a lot of anger toward me for defending the people, ate me for defending them, But it was just like I just liked that they were different and I had a great time.

Except Phantom Menace.

I'm not the biggest fan. I do love the duels in Phantom Menace. There were so many things in Phantom Menace. I like it, but it just can't I can't handle him as a kid being a fighter pilot and doing all that. It feels like he should have been a teenager at that point of the movie doing that, but him being still that young. I'm not gonna buy his relationship with Finalie Portman in this second?

Are you an Angel? Imagine Return of Jedi didn't exist, right, and all of those series, the prequel let's say the prequels, then the series, and then the sequels. Imagine they're jumping off point was the Empire strikes back? Because if you think about it, a lot of those shows and those prequels and those sequels, esthetically and tone wise, they are more Return of the Jedi than they are Empire or

It is so fitting for twenty twenty five, just this whole idea of this push towards fascism and stuff. And it's so funny because of course I had to think about Trump while I was watching this, and thinking, he probably wants to be the Emperor, but at best he's job of the Hut, this whole thing of who's going to pay me the most kind of thing and bargaining with Boosh and all this stuff. You get to the Emperor's scenes and you're just like, no, this guy knows

I interviewed the editor returns It, who was Markwan's editor, a guy called Sean Barley lives in West London, and I went to his house for the morning and we chatted about it and he was talking about that early cut he did that was quite plodding. I think the film was like two hours forty minutes or something like that,

And god, yeah, they changed that title so late. I mean there was a movie theater I used to go to around here that still had a Revenge of the Jedi poster in the marquee, you know, in the lobby, and I was just like, oh, yeah, like that would have been something. And yeah, just this whole like Jedi don't take revenge thing. I was like, Okay, I guess I can see that. But at the same time, return is such a weak title.

No, you're right, but it fits the movie because it's such a nice movie.

It was going to be return originally as well.

It doesn't deserve the title Revenge of the Jedi because it makes it sound too you know. It's just it's a nice movie. So it asked to be return and we got Revenge for the third Star Wars, which is.

A rougher movie. And I love how many people take responsibility for that to as well. Like I've spoken to Jim Bloom. I haven't heard your interview with Jim, but he says, you know, he remembers talking about it, and how Kauzandin says that he came up with it, and George said it was his idea, you know. And you know, I work on big TV shows and big sports events. I can't remember who made a decision in the thick of it.

You know.

Sometimes I'm sure things I've claimed that I've done when not my idea. Originally, it was just a little spark of an idea that somebody else gave me and I

It also, Jedi, isn't that it's I can't remember the term for this, but it's both a plural and a singular or noun. So it's like, is it more than one Jedi? Is it the Jedi? Yes, yes, exactly, like they've been asked out before. And if we don't know, like we know that Yoda's around, we knew that Ben was around, Like how many other Jedi are there? So it feels very weird when it's like, no, no, Luke's

Is that you.

Yeah, after seeing the back of his head in the second movie, I was like, Oh my god, this guy is gonna be so fucked up. And then it's yeah, Grandpa, what are you doing here Sebastian Shaw having those big, bushy eyebrows.

I was like, oh my god, because that's the important thing. They removed the eyebrows, because their eyebroads should have been gone. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that unveiling. I think for a lot of people, including David Prows, it was a disappointment. You did want to see somebody a bit more messed up. But I think for years I was a bit scared of that scene in Empire where you saw the back of his head.

And I guess.

We did see the Emperor in the second movie as well, and he had the It was cool. It was like chimpin monkey eyes. Yeah yeah, and then you could see him in person. You're just like, oh, okay, back and change it.

Yet Luke had just taken the mask off, and imagine if you'd just taken the mask off and we just saw Luke's face just kind of go or maybe he looked just like Luke, you know, like the dream sequence in Empire maybe is like an old version of Luke. God, there's so much potential with that sequence yeah, it feels like a lost opportunity.

And then the poor guy just dies, and the death of Yoda and the death of Darth Vader they do nothing for me. There's no feeling. I'm just like, Okay, poor cross eyed Yoda just faded away. You know, he's one of my favorite characters. In the second movie. They give him such short shrift in this film. Then he just disappears, and then yeah, like we build up to Darth Vader and then you go, oh, he's just a harmless old man. He's basically the Wizard from the Wizard

You weren't off completely when you were talking about like the return of the Jedi being Jedi as I have a podcast Best Movies Never Made, and we had JW. Wrinsler, one of the nicest human beings I've ever met, so kind, and he was telling us that the original version of Jedi, during the ending when Luke has wanted with the Emperor, that the ghosts of Obi Wan and Yoda come back and help. They're like help defending him against the lightning and everything, you know, and then the final, the very.

Ending, is that they become human again.

So in a way, that title, the way you were thinking about it, there was a version of it where it was Returns of the Jedi. In a way when you were saying that reminded me of have you seen tweet? This could have been going on for years, but I'd just been seeing it recently NonStop, someone saying I just realized after seventeen years of watching Star Wars. The title episode Return of the Jedi refers to Darth Vader's.

Return as Anakin and not Luke.

I don't think that's where Lucas intended, but I find it interesting because in a way it could make sense.

It wasn't until later years that that ever occurred to me, and I don't know if it was something online that sparked that, but yeah, there's that sort of duality. Luke's decided he's not going to go to the dark Side. He throws his legs over away, the Jedi returned. He's now become a Jedi. This is him reaching that kind of peak and simultaneously, there's you know, Anakin saving his son and getting rid of the baddest guy in the

Yeah, all the information you guys gave me, I didn't see that once, but I think that it is fascinating. I saw that tweet recently in the last few weeks getting ready for this show. It's just been popping up everywhere all of a sudden.

I'm like, oh, weird.

And by the way, I mean, I don't know how did Darth getting split in half going down one of those things like the Emperor?

How do they always survive that?

Somehow?

Palpatine returned.

Well, even Luke's lightsaber apparently survived that as well, because that little orange creature and was like, oh, here's Luke's lightsaber, and I'm like, this is the blue one. This isn't the green one oak?

And what was it? Like, that's a story for another time.

Yeah, that will mean any of the sequels. I do like the person who gives the ted talk quote unquote about how all the Star Wars movies have the wrong titles.

What happens?

In episode one we meet Anakin Skywalker The Rise of Skywalker. Years later, we find out that Palpatine, leader of the Sith, have ordered an army to destroy the Jedi. Revenge of the Sith. In episode three, Order sixty six happens and the Clones Attack Attack of the Clones. In episode four, ovi Wan teaches Luke that it is time for the Jedi to return. Return of the Jedi. In episode five, Yoda teaches Luke how to use the Force. The Force awakens. Episode six, both Yoda and Anak and die, which makes

Oh I never thought of that.

Yeah, some of them did that with the Last Apes trilogy. Also that all the titles are for those Because I'm completely confused.

What movie is which now Jesus, Yeah, well, I'm confused by the sequel trilogy because I'm just like which one's force awakens, which one's last. I just know that I don't like any of those. I'm not like some sort of misogynists where I'm just like, I can't handle Daisy Ridley in this role. I just felt like, yeah, yeah, no, I like her a lot too. I really wish that she had joined forces with Kren like that moment that

But you see those posts online. You know, how come this happens and then that happens and then this didn't happen. And the answer is always bad writing. It's never about some expositional thing or character thing. It's just somebody didn't think about it at the time, and they just forgot what they had. In some cases, I'm able to sort of compartmentalize those films as sequels, as maybe somebody has a go at rebooting Star Wars and this is the result.

I hear you. I like a lot of movies people can't understand why I like. But you know, that's why I'll never argue with people. Like when The acle I came out, everyone's ripping it apart.

I just get my opinions to myself.

You know, it's like I want to go on there and rip things apart. But I do wish they would have went with the Duel of Fates draft instead of Rise of Skywalk. I just thought that was a more fitting finale to that trilogy. There was just this great I don't know. It was like Gray with this dual

Just I don't know. I found that movie to be kind of a mess.

Maybe years from now, when I returned to it, I'll appreciate it, because that happens with me with certain If I don't like something now years later, I could go and appreciate it. But them getting rid of that draft, I just always felt like, I don't know why they did.

I thought it was really cool, but because they fired the director who wrote it.

Now they had to get rid of I thought a really good story, and then instead we got the warps chased and the movie is really cool. But that's all I remember. I just watched it once and I was just kind of like bummed out by it. And then especially years later getting my hands on that draft and then I read it and I'm like, oh my god.

This is great.

I have to get hold of it. You just brought up a good point. Then they all watching you dislike them. In years later you fall in love with the me, you know, for me, I guess later on it would be a good example of that. But I think that's what's unique about these three original Star Wars films is I've loved them in every phase of my life, you know, since I first saw them, through my teens and my

To be very good.

But I've always found something to like about them through all the phases of my life. And that's pretty unique. And I think it is really bloody hard to make these movies and make a good one of these movies. You know, all the tools have been there in the past and it has not been achieved. And it just goes to show what a miracle and Or is, and what a miracle Empi Strikes Back is and the original

It's you know, just so much cool stuff growing up with and experiencing.

For the first time.

You know. One of my shout out to Waz He is a hypnotherapist right used to be an editor and he recently got a message from somebody to ask if you can hypnotize me to make me forget Star Wars because I want to see it again for the first time. He said, give it a go. I won't pass any judgment on that, but I do love that idea of just being able to have your memory wipe to re experience Star Wars all over again. But then you'd have

When we talked about a New Hope, one of my co hosts for that was Rob Saint Mary, who really hadn't watched Star Wars and so it was very new for him, and he just knew so much of it from the culture, like you were saying, like all of the references, like I'm surprised that we have gone for almost two hours. We haven't done like every other group of men talking about Return of the Jedi and just

You know.

I think that's another example of what we were talking about earlier where it doesn't fit the character. You think about Empire and she's feisty and she's finding back, Okay, she's falling in love with and Solo and you know he's been taken off and I love you, i know, and all of that stuff. But to see her just sat there in front of Jabba just not saying I'm doing anything. You just think, where is the fire? Where's

Yeah, because she was supposed to be doing something else, and that makes sense now she's not really doing much there, and also like no one's like paying it you know, like Luke doesn't even pay her no mind.

It was like, yo, what do you now?

He's just the stoic and doing his thing. And Hans says, where's Ley and she goes, I'm here, and that's it. That's all we get.

You know.

Obviously she does strangle him in the end, and that is a great moment that she gets through that, and carry would talk about that in interviews with you know, she hated or she loved Jabba, but she hated the what did she call it, the mung in the corner of his mouth, and she got to strangle him in the end was great. But yeah, it's a difficult topic,

They covered up with Daryl Hannah's but in Splash. I'm surprised they haven't done the same thing for Return of the jub Oh. Yeah, digitally made her hair longer and it looks awful. Whoever did the special effects for it did not know what they were doing. It looks like she's wearing a pair of panties made out of fur.

In defense of the effects artists, they probably did know what they were doing. They just didn't have the time All the money to do.

All right, guys, let's take another break in. We're going to play a preview for next week's show. Right after these brief messages, after all.

These years, I thought I knew you, but it turned out to be a stranger.

We're fighting for our lives, and my family must survive.

Yes, the most shocking experience of their lives. Doubly shocking because it can happen to you.

Still, right my trailer, what are you gonna do?

Cola cops?

They're busy with the new highway patrol?

All right, The lawless are on the loose, making it necessary for law abiding citizens to make their own law.

I could going fire a shadow over their heads. Maybe that'll upset them. Right, there are no civilians. We are all at war.

Give me, I'm good with the I'll stay here and I'll kill them.

This is civilization's jungle after the jackals of society have ruthlessly ravaged it, ending the world of decency.

I killed two men.

I tried to kill them too, but I missed.

I just wasn't a good enough shot.

That's right. We'll be back next week when they look at panic in the year zero. Until then, I want to thank my co hosts, Stephen and Jamie. So, Jamie, what's the latest with you, sir?

Still doing the podcast? The film you mention this podcast. I'm just in the process of editing episode one hundred and twenty eight, and funnily enough, it's an episode that I'm just trying to throw out there at the moment because I'm so busy. It's an interview from ten years ago with Anthony Forrest, who played not only the deleted Fixer who was one of Luke's friends at Toshi Station

Fantastic and Steven, how about yourself?

Yeah, I do a podcast called Best Movies Never Made? Right now, I guess when this episode comes out, nearing towards the end of an epic going through all the unmade Superman movies. We just did the Mario Puzo draft, and then we did the original version of Superman three, and then we're gonna be doing Lives and Reborn and I.

Wrote a huge article about that years ago, and yeah, it took me forever to track down some of those scripts.

Holy shit, Yeah, dude, it's massive because I do all the outlines and oh my god. Yeah, well you thought that Weur Batman episode was the longest. I think this is gonna beat it. So you can check that out. And I want to see more shark content. I know

He puts those fences up. You now, the Dude's freaking amazing.

So I can't wait to see Jamie's documentary because I just love Joe Alves and there's so much I don't think people appreciate or even know about the guy. But yeah, if you want to see a cool shark documentary about shark movies, check out Shark's Ploitation on Shutter and just the podcast in that. At the moment, I'm working on something new, but I don't think I can announce it yet.

Well, thank you again guys for being on the show. Thanks to everybody for listening. If you want to hear more of me shooting off my mouth, check out some of the other shows that I work on. They are all available at Wadingwaymedia dot com. Thanks especially to our Patreon community. If you want to join the community, visit patreon dot com slash Projection Booth. Every donation we get helps Projection Booth take over the galaxy

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