Old you is, folks, it's showtime.
People pay good money to see this movie.
When they go out to a theater.
They want cold sodas, hot popcorn, and no monsters.
In the protection booth, everyone pretend podcasting isn't boring, don it off?
What Welcome to the projection booth.
I'm here, Mike White joined me once again? Is mister rob Saint Mary Greetings. There's not a lot of lines to quote from this movie.
No, And I was gonna say something horrible, but I decided I don't want to get hate mail.
That's probably for the best. Also, back in the booth is the one who's getting the hate mail, Miss.
Heather Edraid Oh boy Hattie. If I had a dollar for all the hate meil, I'd have some dollars. I'd me bind me a candy bar and a criterion copy of this amazing movie.
Also Hello, Hello, We are kicking off Cheptember twenty twenty four with a classic of the check new wave yon Nemes Diamonds of the Night. Released in nineteen sixty four, The film was a groundbreaking piece of cinema based on Arnest Lustig's semi autobiographical novel Darkness Cast no shadow. The film is about the escape of two boys from a
train carrying them to a death camp. The film works on several levels of past, present, and possible future, along with fantasy sequence, all mixed into one big movie via it's avant garde editing. We will be spoiling this film if that's possible, as we go along, so we don't want anything ruined. Please turn off the podcast, watch the criteria disc that Heather I was just talking about, and come on back. We will still be here. So Rob, was this a first time watch for you, sir?
Yes, it was. I know that you've been doing your check series every year for many years, and having visited Czech Republic last year, which we'll talk about later. I think I may have said, hey, I've got some suggestions for you, and you said, how about we do this one? And I said that wasn't one of my suggestions, but it's still good. And what I like about watching this one is that it has a lot of aspects of
just making you figure it out as you go. And this is not a film that is going to feed it to you on a spoon and expect you to lap it up and love it. But I think if you're into challenging work and interesting work and documentary style work. It really does a lot and talks about a very historical period, but it could be even broader than that, more existentially me That's why I liked it.
Rob, You're gonna have to send me that list of movies you'd like to cover next year, as I set up the schedule for twenty twenty five, we'll do. Thank you and Heather, how about you? Had you seen this one before?
No, this was the first time watch for me as well. In fact, I remember when I saw it on the list. It's one I'd heard of, and I was like, ooh, this is the perfect opportunity for me to dive in. And I was definitely not disappointed. And it's I love seeing a film that tackles something from recent history, especially but does it in a way that doesn't feel cheap. It doesn't feel like overly dramatic or Oscar Baby or
anything like that. This is definitely something I think incredibly creatively pure and emotionally pure about this film and how it's presented.
This was also first time watch for me too. This was one of those I'm kicking my own ass to watch this movie because it's supposed to be a classic, and everything I hear about it, oh, it's so great.
It's so great.
It's so great, you know what. It lived up to the hype. If anything, it exceeded the hype because I just knew two boys escaped from a train and then you follow them yawn. But the way that this is shot, the way it's put together, the editing. We're going to talk about the editing for sure, just everything about it. I was like, oh wow, I did not expect this,
even just from that very first shot. When I talk about boys escaping from a train, you basically catch them mid motion in media res as they are jumping and going into this ditch and running up this hill. And you got the sound of these shots and these boys just trying their most to get away. You get really close to them. It's not handheld, and I saw how
they shot this, which was amazing. But just the way that you're focusing in on these boys and just it is so cinema veritate with that, and then when they start to introduce fantasy aspects of it, it just really took my breath away.
Oh you were in it. That's the thing that I really enjoy about this, and it really I think sets it off. Like you were saying, from the first shot, this is a movie that's this is where we're at, This is where we're going, and they're in the middle of a forest, and everything is so tight. It's so tight on their faces and it's I want you to be there with them. They don't show you the train, you don't see anyone running after them. Everything is soundtrack.
Soundtracking here is so important to that psychological element of just making you live with them. They want you to be as scared and confused and just regulated, to put a better word on it, through this whole thing, and it's fantastic in the way that it does that with such economy.
Yes, that's a beautiful way to put that. I love the economy the sound design, Chris. As you guys know, I am a massive sucker for when a director does that and has that attention and gives that because sound impacts everything, it can make or even break how powerful a film can be and how powerful scene could be.
Just effect from the opening frame where you just have the stark black background and the white titles and all you're hearing is like a bell and that's really the closest thing we get to music and the whole film. And I love the fact that there's almost no dialogue. There's very little dialogue. I think it's sleep what the thirteen or fourteen minute mark that we finally hear a word. I love it because it's making you discomfort, like what you were saying, rob Like it's purposely putting you in
this place where you're with these boys. These are kids, they're not like little kids that they're like teenagers. And I love it so much because I think sometimes, especially for us here in the States, you get so used to just this hollywoodification of everything, and especially if this is a serious movie, but then it almost feels that you're at the risk of cheapening emotions. With that kind of attention, it looks like anything in the right hands,
you can do anything. But I love seeing something that was just so, this is this director's vision, and he is not giving you any comfort, because this is a story that doesn't warrant comfort. If you add any comfort to it, then you're robbing the power. And you're also doing a huge disservice to these characters and their situation.
And the nonlinear aspect in which we really brings us in thinking that we're in real time and we very may well could in real time. We very may That is the main stock of the story is that, but slowly these and they start. They're rather short to begin with, the flashback pieces, and so there's a flashback of them jumping onto the street car, and then there's other flashbacks that come in, and it forces you as a viewer to consider when is this, was this just before? Was
this five years ago? When was this? And what does this mean up against what we just saw? And the thing with those flashbacks is that when he does them, he doesn't really call attention to them so much. For example, cliche dream sequences in film, Oh it gets fuzzy around the edges, or we've shifted from black and white to color. The whole films in black and white, but anyway it
shifts in some way. There's none of that. It's just here, have this image and deal with it, and then we're going to go to some other image.
Those flashbacks or fantasy sequences, they are slightly overexposed sometimes but not too much. But the way that you can tell that they're more fantasy than real because you get to see them like hopping onto a tram and taking a tram across the city. But they're wearing these jackets that have a big KL on the back, and you see them as soon as the movie opens, when they're landing on the ground. They strip themselves on these jackets and they're very, very conspicuous in the KL on the back.
I had to look it up because I didn't know. I was just like, just like a brand, or what are they? Why are they wearing this? And no, no, it's not like some sort of hip brand or anything. It's actually an abbreviation for and forget my pronunciation, Concentracian slager, which is German for concentration camp. So they're marked right there.
And then you're like, oh, all of these sequences they have these jackets on, So is this the past but that now colored with their experience of going to the camps? Or is there just pure fantasy of these two guys enjoying their day and hopping on this tram because you also get to see them on a train later on, and I guess the one kid is eating a pine cone?
Is that right?
It just I kept trying to figure out what he was chewing on, but he seems desperately hungry. In some of those scenes.
With the tram, it looks like a regular street As a matter of fact, I said, I was in frag and it looks like it was by the castle gate there at Charles River Bridge and they hop on there. But then it takes on this other element where it looks burned out and there's nothing, there's no one in it. And then they show you the same shot again later and it's just a regular streetcar and people are on
it on a regular day. So he has this also recurring image use that recn and textualizes it where it's okay, is this fantasy, is this reality? Is this documentary of what they were doing days before or years before? But you really get the sense of with them, even within the context of them being on the street car and it's quote unquote normal, there's still others. There's still this feeling of they're the outsiders, that they're people are looking at them weird.
Well, they passed by those younger Nazis, and those Nazis look like they're younger than these kids are. They look like they're fourteen, fifteen years old.
Yeah, and they're smiling and chatting with each other, and I thought of all the visual choices that stuck out with me, the use of ants.
Oh yeah, I'm as soon as I saw that, I was like, oh, Rob must be happy. This is a total boon.
Well left, yeah completely, and the fact that it comes back too, that we have for repetition of it, and it even just yeah, especially when it comes back. It's very surrealist the way it's executed, which of course I love. But the choice of having the most sinister humans in this film, it's necessarily the two because you're right, the two actual Nazis. We see the Swasa because they're kids, and that's honestly, that's the reality. People got drafted. I
think we're so used to seeing the classic Stern villain. Obviously, the Nazis party terrible. Obviously there's no argument on that. But let time you just get these kids and get drafted.
Does inside let the record reflect, I did not mention the name.
Oh yes, no, no one's taking a drink because you didn't get to say it yet, So keep an here out for that people at home, be word, yes, Robie drinking game that he has.
But when you were talking about the youngest Nazis is at the opposite end, you have the oldest men who are like the militia, the hunt party who or after them. And one of the things that I really like about what they do in here, and I wonder if this was the director's choice to do this or if it was just the way that it was released, is that there's no subtitles on any of the other dialogue. It's
mostly the subtitle is on their dialogue. Anyone in kind of the outside world is not subtitled, So there is this kind of I don't understand what they're saying or so I guess that as an element of your them and you would be in these scenarios where if you didn't speak German, or you didn't speak whatever the language was, you would have felt as out. So they want the audience to feel as out in that way too.
Right before I came down to record this episode, I was just putting the finishing touches on the episode about Chris Pettit's radio on and that has a lot of German ties to it. Vin Vendors was an associate producer and there are a lot of German characters in that and none of them are subtitled either, So you do get that I'm on the outs thing that these characters have, because yeah, anytime anyone speaking German, they're not subtitled, nor
would these kids understand it. So you just feel like they do where you're being attacked by these old men. And it's funny because by the end of the war I think it was just old men and young kids that were left. And I don't know if this reflects that with the young and they almost look like SS officers versus that old man group. And it could also
be this is nineteen sixty four, this comes out. This could also be the hey, the youth have it going on and these old people are trying to keep us down kind of thing, because those old people, they just they're having the best time after they go out and go for a hunt and then they get to come back to this big empty hall with all of this that tried us all over and they just get to drink beer and sing and dance and they're having a good old time, which just goes against what you see
these two boys standing with their faces against the wall and their hands up the entire time, and just what a stark contrast.
And for me, again, this is another film with dancing Nazis. So you can add this one to Salo, you can add this one to the Damned if you really love dancing Nazis. It's another film to put in your catalog of dancing Nazi films. I don't know why they always hip dancing Nazis.
That's a micro shot or people that talk about enough.
I'm going to put my proposal together and see if i can get a book deel on that one.
Also, you've got the guy who is in the concentration camp that dances for Dick Bogart in night Porter. But I think Dick Bogart also has a slow dance with the Charlotte Rampling too true.
I hate these guys now.
That was something I found such fascinating. Choice is that the real villains of this piece are these old men. It's not the actual literal Nazis, but these old, disgusting, hateful I don't think I have seen a more hateful village since al Topo. It actually a lot of times with the hunting and the weapons made me think of the ending of al Topo and just how grotesque and
needlessly horrible, absolutely needlessly horrible. And you could read a lot into the problems of tribalism, and just some just there's so many pockets of humanity that don't even need to be fed too much propaganda, to be pushed very easily into being the absolute worst aspect of themselves. Seeing these horrible human beings hick at a chicken carcass eating sausage. Good lord, this makes it La grand bou look like a fantage.
It's just a normal day in frankenmosh good as zenders, you'll see the same thing. Sorry, just a horrible as you can reference. Worse than watching them eat is hearing them eat. That lip smacking noise was driving me crazy. And just you talk about that emphasis on audio, and I'm curious. I doubt any audio was shot on set. I imagine this was all post sounds. So all of
this soundscape is very well crafted. The sound of the branches as they're going through the forest, the sound of the gunshots that are going off, the sounds of the tram. But yeah, when they get to that end part and you're just those guys eating, oh it is a little cross friend. They just and they're having such a good time. And the reason why I say it looks post dubbed is because there's a lot of times where mouths are moving, words aren't coming out, and just it sounds that way.
It's so disgustingly executed. You literally you almost feel like they're spitting in your faith, like this spittle. It's like having to sit next to a really gross relative at a family table. Yea who in addition to telling you their garbage opinions on the youth of today and political affairs and how they're going to vote, they're also like basically filating a turkey leg and as they're gnawing our cartilage.
That's how it felt. It is, and they're already repugnant because I think ikept thinking about two is these poor kids that have been starving, Like when we finally see them, the one time we see them get deep real food like bread, they start spinning up blood. These poor children that are suffering needlessly, and they're having to be in
the room with these disgusting, loud, drunk Bavarians. And that's that all Bavarians obviously come on, but like these horrible people, and they could smell the cooked food that they probably had longer. Just how horrible that is. And ugh, it's amazing. That's duty of filmmaking, though, Like we didn't have to have any snidely whiplash moments, just the economy the earlier. I love that use of that word.
And for me, all of this comes out of the fact of how they set this thing up in that because it is so quiet in the beginning, it makes you lean in, it makes you pay attention. When they work the sound the way that they do, it's just even more overly intimate. For lack of a better as they were talking about all the eating, but can we talk about when they get that opportunity to eat? And I was really thrown off and then it shifted on me.
And what I mean by that is the boys are in the forest and one of them goes, I'm gonna go over that house and I'm gonna get something because they're like, when do we eat? And I don't know. It's been days, last time week. So he goes over this farmhouse and there's a woman there, and through a series of different interactions and repeated interactions, they're like, it's almost looping. He gets bread. At one point there's a suggestion that maybe he sleeps with her. There's a suggestion
at one point and maybe he kills her. There's just multiple looping in this scene that I think that's the scene for me, at least when I was watching it, where I go, Okay, this is no longer linear with splashback. This is something that is almost internal, and I don't know whose internal it is. Is it the kid who's in the room, is it someone else? What is it they're trying to tell us Nip, because it seems at that point things shift.
For me, My interpretation is that it is Drew. He is the character's name or antonin Comberra, the darker complexed of the two.
God.
He's really orgeous, this kid, and I feel like that's his fantasies? What should I do? Should I murder her? Should I rape her? I wouldn't say that they sleep together. It felt much more like a rape to me. I don't know or at least one of those should What should I do with this person? And can I get what I want? Which is that bread right there? And the way that she cuts those thick, thick slices of bread. I'm just like, oh man, that looks fantastic.
And at the same time I couldn't figure out if, like where they were like, is she also an outsider because I can't remember if she says something to him or not.
I think she's the farmer's wife. I think that that's how they find her, as they see the farmer plowing the field and she comes and brings him lunch, and so they figure that they have to have food, so they follow her back.
Yeah, but you.
Did it to see a woman who looks like she's in the city though sometimes and she's up in a window. Do you know who I'm talking about and looks like the same woman?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I noticed that you have a lot of flashbacks where some of the flashbacks do seem a bit like you're not entirely sure, You're like, is this reality? But it's also if you're in that kind of extremity of a situation, memory is going to get really weird. I think memory in the vist lush cush circum stances without stressed human memories already gets a little faulty.
Kid's a little loosey cocy sometimes a lot of times I don't even intentionally, but then you're in this extreme situation and there are times we are almost like this could almost be like not a hallucination, but where your brain gets in that state because they're starving, they are exhausted, they are running on probably one hundred percent anxiety. Anybody's got a panic attack knows how horrible that feeling is.
I can't imagine having to basically be running on that feeling and the absolute one of the worst circumstances of a person could be and on top of that, just forget getting any nutrients that's up with that. I just so I thought that it was such a cool move because it didn't feel it didn't feel forced. I think that, to me was one of the fascinating things. Is like when you when you start dipping into both something that's
historically rooted as well as surrealism. It takes a very keen mind to do that well and not have it come across as pretentious or arch And in this film, everything is so fluid, everything feels so perfect, and it's it's incredibly creative, well at the same time seeming very intimate, but also I think Mike earlier you said there attends seems very cinema verite, and it does. It feels very raw, but he had incredibly incredibly just very beautifully crafted, like
it's such a pull mix. I can't think of too many movies on the top I had that have that combo.
Well, it could have been somewhat of a disaster too, because his cinematographer left midway through, Yaroslav Kuchera. He ended up, Now this is mimic saying this stuff and nemic. He's prankster. So this might be apocryphal, but he was saying that, And there are two dps that are credited on here. But Kchera was supposed to be part of a film festival down in South America or Central America, and so he was just like, hey, I'm never going to have
this opportunity again. I need to go. But here's my assistant, Miroslav Underchek, who if you listen to the show, you've heard Ondichek's name mentioned a ton of times. I can't remember if he was married to Hitlova or if he just shot a lot of her films, but just he's
a great cinematographer, amazing, and so is Kuchera. And so according to Nemek, it worked out well that Kuchera shot more of the street ahead like scenes in the forest type things that Tracking shot that amazing tracking shot and all of those like more realistic things, and then under check shot more of the fantasy stuff. So he's, oh, it was nice and it had a different feel to it.
I don't know how much of that I believe, but if he says it or said it, I should say, because he passed away in twenty sixteen, Okay, maybe that worked. And then his other thing that he was saying was that and this is just amazing to me. So this was edited by a man named Miroslav Jack haj e K. And if you've been listening to the Projection Booth, this guy has edited so many of the movies that we've talked about. I've never really picked up on just how
many movies he did. He started working in nineteen forty nine, or at least that's his first credited editing job. He edited two hundred and twenty six films. It's nineteen forty nine when he's starting. The check new wave comes around what sixty three, sixty fours when they generally say that it started, I think sixty three. He does all of this avant garde editing. He has done so many of the movies that we've talked about, like a case for
a rookie hangman. He would work with Flatchil, he would work with Weiss, he had worked with old Rich Lipski, and just over and over and over again, so many of these movies, even like Happy End, one of my most favorite films in the world, which is all told back words with a voice over the ghost forwards amazingly avant garde, and this guy was like, oh yeah, and
apparently t neemic. He's just like, tell me what you want and I'll just come up with it for you, and worked on all of this stuff and it's just fucking amazing that he did this.
It's also my understanding that one of the cinematographers also did most of Foreman's work all the way up to Amadaeus and such.
Yeah, that was I'm go check now, that's something that like, I find so fascinating and charming about this, and I'll be the first movement that like when it comes to check sen them up. I am still very much of what I would call the newborn baby deer Stead. It's like I am still I'm very much a newbie. But one I think's actually attracted me to doing this film is I remember hearing that Lottie, which I think he's created. He has Lattislavyansky, who's the of the two of our
two main characters. He's the older kid that's a little taller. Then it's also Lotty Voniansky, and of course as well I can Rob definitely do this. Probably that's hurt me on Projection before. I'm a massive fan of Steven Stadion and I've written a lot about Steven's work. I'm currently working on a big project about his art and Lottie and Steven worked here on on everything going from Hustler up into Doctor Calgary. But Stephen, if it's so camera to read what he sent me, because he texted me
that because of course, Foreman, you mentioned Milos formatively. Okay, this is the part of the show where I had had to bring this up. But after Milos is amazing success with one flew over the Cuckoo says is seventy five. He had a lot of poll and told everyone with an earshot that Yan Nemeck is quote unquote the best among all the Czech directors, including me. He arranged for
Yan to beat with all the studio heads. Yon flew to La reluctantly and to no one, surprise, loathed everyone he met on site, could not stomach the typical Hollywood bullshit. He stay in Hollywood for a year or two and started shooting weddings. Guy, I can you imagine? Holy shit, I took my brain just processed that part right now on air.
Oh my god, I read that he was shooting weddings. Here's the guy who directed the party and the guests, and he's shooting weddings. One of the best and most avant garde of the Czech new wave and yeah, he's doing your wedding video for you.
Holy shit. I had to stop for that one, draking up all his profits. Lottie wasn't living in la during this time. Lotti, Milo Sian Ivan Passer, who Cutter's Way. God, that's a phenomenal movie, and you're and God, I'm gonna apologize right now. I'm gonna try and get this right. Eurrage here yep, who did the creator? You can tell I took German and not that all met in the mid sixties while attending film school in Czechoslovakia. Diamonds of the Night was a huge hit and Lottie became a
teen idol. He was christened the quote unquote Check James Dean and Stephen added and this is so heavy, but it's true. Among all the names mentioned above, Lottie is the only one is still with us. I think I we still have Lottie. Lottie worked with Steven on do
the photography for Frank Zappa's Thinkfish album. I think that to go from being the Czech James Dean and being one of the leads in this incredible film to not only working with Stephen Sadian, who's also a great a tour in his own very different way, but the Frank Zappa, it's it's amazing. It's amazing all the inroads that are are in this story and with these with these figures. But itways. I thought that was so cool. And also I think Milis Foreman already get at more points the
guy obviously know this. Foreman's great, but holy crap, I love that he vouched for a friend like that. Not everybody, not every It's sad to say in this world, not everybody, and everybody is is as moral as they should be with things.
Unfortunately, poor Yan Nemick was one of the three Check filmmakers who were at Con nineteen sixty eight, where and i'd love he's the guy nemic, is the guy he pulls no punches, and I fucking love him for this, because he's the guy who goes Yeah. Godar closed down the whole festival because of the protests that were happening because of May sixty eight and all this. But really, what I think it was is that the French didn't have nearly as good of films as we had.
I love it. He's like cutting a wrestling promo. That's soly I love. I love that he has so many great quotes, because you'd send us all of these amazing articles that were both about him, and there was one or two at least it had that was like the interviews and had some amazing quotes. And his quote about cinema this touched me so much, where he wrote, a pure film, which I should like to achieve, should be interpretable in itself, It should have its own aesthetics and poetry.
I cannot think of a truer statement of when cinema is what it should be than that statement right there. When film is magic, no matter what kind of film it is, genre, story, whatever, When it's right and you feel it in your bones and it changes your DNA that statement.
I love the French New Wave. There's a difference between fighting against a I guess this is the capitalist system we have to live under. We'll just satirize it, versus no, seriously, there's fucking tanks in the series and this really fucking sucks there. It's a real different attitude that comes with being in Czechoslovakia and making movies in this period.
That interview from closely watched films where the author made sure to point out when it was being recorded and it was like the Prog Spring. I think it was like July of sixty eight and I was just like, holy shit, like here I am as a filmmaker. I just got back from con basically where my film wasn't shown,
which was delayed in release by the Czech government. I believe I'm trying to remember my party and the guests knowledge, but that was delayed for two years because it came out it might have come out after Murders of Love even though it shot before, and like to have that piece of history there where it's just this is where we're at right now.
It's interesting that you were talking about the Prog Spring and that and I knew some of that history, but I didn't know it as well as when I went to Prague a year ago. This is August of twenty twenty three. You have a friend from Detroit who moved there about six or seven years ago and he retired there and really speak Check. But he had some contacts there in the art world and just really fell in
love with the place. And when he was a kid, he had traveled with his parents and they had I believe gone there at one point, so he was always like, I need to come back here. I had an opportunity in August of twenty three to go there for about ten days and stay with him. And one of the places where I learned a lot about sort of the history of this period was the Museum of Communism in Prague.
And the Museum of Communism is great because I explained Marxism and it was a philosophical statement, but really gets into what life was like day to day, kind of year by year right after World War Two ends and really gives you a sense of what people were up against. And when you watch Check film with this knowledge, then you have a more richer understanding of this. One of my friends since I was in high school. His family was next door. He's Slovak and his family came over
in the early eighties. So I have some reference before for all of this from my friend Dean and his family of what they were under living in Bratislava. But really the whole thing with the Prague Spring and that it's handled beautiful in Museum of Communism, if you ever get a chance to go to Prague, you should go there. But the other aspects of the film that I found
were interesting, and I watched some of the extras. Was there was a historian that was talking about the writer of the novel, the semi autobiographical novel in which film is based on, had spent time in Tarzine. Now Tarzine I did not know about. This is not something that was talked about in American history books. From what I remember, we knew a lot of the names of the concentration camps, Docau, outchfitz bergen Belsen, all of that, but we're never really
told about Tarrazine. Terrazine in some ways is just as horrible and just as shocking because it's a town in Czech Republic that was a former Austro Hungarian garrison and the Nazi set it up as this Potemkin village, and basically it was a way for them to showcase how well they were treating the Jews, and so they brought in the international press, they brought in the newsreels, the International Red Cross, who was making sure that they were
doing things okay, and they made all of this propaganda about how it was for all these Jews who were all living in Tarrazine. And then basically as soon as that stuff went out and the Nazis were like, are we clear, Okay, We're clear, load them on train cars and sent them all off, and I think the majority of them went Dauschwitz. And it's my understanding that the novelist on which this film was based within Tarrazine, and maybe this is part of this escape on the train.
A few years ago, my friend who lives in Prague, my friend Rick, worked on a short documentary with a friend of his about this and had originally asked me to assist with the voiceover. I did do a voice of version. They didn't end up using it. That's fine, but the documentary is still quite good. And so I'm going to share the link with you, Mike, and you can put it up on the show page case people are interested, So I would say watch that museum Communism.
And then the third piece of this when we talk about Okay, obviously there's all of the Communists stuff that comes after World War Two, but Czechoslovakia was under one of the worst Nazis, the guy that scared Hitler, which is Ryan Hart Heidrich. So Heydrich was basically the territorial governor of the Czech Republic in this period for several years. But he was also the architect of the Final Solution
and was the Aryan ideal. You go look up a photo Hydrich and you'll be like blonde hair, blue eyed, Aryan ideal kind of guy. And he was the one who was the architect of the final solutions. And I believe it was forty two or forty five three. There was an effort by check Partisans in which they were trained by the British and then they were parachuted Bragg because they knew how driver would drive him through a certain part of town to go from where he lived
to where his work was. He always had a thing about driving in an open car. He didn't like to be in a closed car because he liked to show his power as the territorial governor of the area, and one set of check partisans got way off. The other ones were closer, and during this part in the curve in the road, car has to stop or slow down pretty heavy, and the two guys jump out and are about to take him out. The gun jams. Someone ends up throwing a grenade which wounds. He actually ends up
dying from his wounds. And so because of that, all of these paratroopers were all in hiding and there was a massive bounty on all of their heads for doing this. They were eventually traced down to a church. There was a priest who held them in the bowels of this church in the catacombs, and so that church now is a national memorial to the heroes of the Hydrich terror. They were all discovered and they were all killed, but the museum is quite moving as you expect, and the
story of them and the aftermath of what happened. As retaliation, there was a town in Czechoslovakia that was literally wiped off the map as reprisal. I think it was ten to twenty thousand people were killed as a reprisal for killing basically the number three man. It's interesting the way the museum handles that history and talks about was it worth it? Was it not worth it? I guess it's a parlor game. We'll never know, but it's one of those really nasty pieces of history. But it's a fascinating
piece of history. And all of the men who were the paratroopers who took part in that are all honored with busts in their stories, their biographies of who they were and their part in Operation Anthropoid, as it was called the Real.
Quick before I forget I was wrong. The progue Spring starts in January of sixty eight. It ends the tanks roll in August twentieth, nineteen sixty eight, and that interview was recorded July eighteenth, nineteen sixty eight, as the worm had started to turn, and the author talks about how there was a missive from Warsaw let's it say quote where the five Eastern European communist parties had met and addressed a poisonous missive to the Czechoslovak Party, which they
had conveniently neglected to invite to the session. So that was all the news on the TV and radio was how things were about to get bad at the brink of history rather than in the middle of history. Though that time between January and August was supposed to be this great time and it was like new freedoms for to check people, and then it came to a very big close. And as far as the artist Lustig, yeah, I definitely recommend, I think, yeah, we didn't an episode.
We also did a commentary for Transport from Paradise, which addresses the whole thing of the concentration camp that he was in, and they have a recreation of the making of Hitler gives a town to the Jews at the beginning of it, which is just Yeah, it makes you sick to think of this propaganda that Hitler was putting out. As far as we treat the Jews nice, look at all of these wonderful Jews, aren't they happy? Look at this wonderful ghetto that they're living in. It is awful.
But that movie is fantastic. Yet another one based on his life. And according to what I've read, he was in Terrenzott, he went to he had the tour shirt, he went to Ashwitz, he went to booke Involved and then eventually he's going to doc Out and that's where he jumped off of the train.
Wow, it's just incredible. And like I said, when you think about what kind of the culture informs the prog film or the Czech film and the Czech I mentality and culture in this period, just living through World War Two was enough then to have to deal with the aftermaaf of dealing with the Iron Curtain and everything that that entailed, it's no wonder you look at these films and you see this version, you see their humanism, you see their call for those kinds of conversations, and to me,
it's amazing when you think about answership under those kind of regimes that so much great film was able to come out and to have these themes, because you would think these sensors would just cut these things ribbons.
I feel like a lot of the history were taught in America. Even our own history is so flawed, and that's why it's good to hear about this experience. And I can't wait to see this documentary that your friend made.
Yeah, it's a nice shortened. Like I said, as I was watching this film, and especially that flashback at the castle gate, it looks like the castle gate of Broadcastle, and there's a streetcar that runs right there, and on the other side of where you see that archway, I believe would be the Charles River Bridge, which is a beautiful bridge with statuary and everything. It's like I said,
Frogue is a beautiful city. Unlike a lot of European cities during World War Two, it did not receive heavy bombings, but has a lot of its beautiful architecture that was built in the early teen hundreds and even earlier, so it wasn't reduced to rubble and then rebuilt. So it's a great gem of a place if you're interested in really getting a feel for what European cities look like, especially that part of the neck of the woods before all the heavy bombing the World War Two.
It's almost a shame that the way that I've approached check Timber has been very shotgun. I've just been like, Oh, that looks interesting. That looks interesting. I'm doing a little magpie type of thing. Oh that sounds like a great title. Let's look at that. Oh I've heard this is a good movie. Looking at all these scholars of this era and country, I'm just like, oh, well, yeah, let's do this. Because I just realized, like this is of the anost
lustic adaptations. This is number two of the big three, and we've already covered Transport from Paradise. Also Dita Sexova a few years ago Chris and I talked about that, and then right in the middle is Diamonds of the Night. He of course wrote other things that were adapted or
had his hand other things. One of those was a twenty fourteen film called Listopad A Memory of the Velvet Revolution, which is funny because I know that Nemek was big friends with Lakoff Hobbell, who eventually became the head of Czechoslovakia after the Velvet Revolution. So maybe I should have picked a year and started there and worked my way up, but I don't know. Hopefully people will understand that none of this check timber stuff is in order. It's mostly by oh, this looks pretty cool.
And here's where your tie back into Frank Zappa comes was because when Hovel became the president of Czech Republic, he had Frank Zappa as a cultural attesha. He loved Frank Zappa. He also loved developed underground, and so there's actually a Frank Zappa statue in Czechoslovakia.
That's right, Yeah, all roads lead back to Frank And honestly, I personally love the magpie approach, not just because that tends to be my approach at the time, but also I think the cool thing what you've been doing with September. To think about it, especially even with senniass everybody tends to go for like the more like the bigger dogs that tend to get focused, like French cinema and British cinema,
or Italian cinema or maybe even Japanese cinema. So I feel like a lot of people have neglected Czech cinema until more recently. To me, what you're doing with this month, with this theme and just in general, is you're planning the right seeds. If one person listens to this episode or into any of them and they're like, you know what,
this sounds like a cool movie. That is till we all learn, that's all we all, I think, have gotten into various types of art, and through art you learn about history too.
And I would say, Mike, I give you props and Rick props because Rick lives over there so he gets it. Mainline that before you started doing this Check series, it would be like Check film. Oh yeah, meelers Foreman, Right, Yeah, didn't he do everything? I almost feel it's like that bit Chris Rockhead where the answer is Martin Luther King. Who was the woman who refused to give up a
seat on the bus. Martin Luther King. That's all we learned was Martin Luther King, Martin Luther King, Martin Luther King. So it's the same thing where it just becomes like Meelers Forman Mieler's forman meelers Foreman. That's only because he's known in the English speaking world, because he made the films that he made here in the States.
No, you're right about that. It's been very nice to see the way that these actors wind their way through everything. I don't know why I never looked up the editor of this stuff, but now to see this editor was behind probably eighty percent of the films that we've talked about in Checktember. Is one guy editing all of those, which is wild to think about.
That's amazing, especially because hell often can you say that about a group of fens of films? Like editors, I always feel like they're almost like the basis of the drums, your rhythm section. Often built the spine to hold up the body of a musical piece. Editors build the rhythm. Editors are in some ways almost more crucial, I think at times than maybe the director. Oh it's the director
is also the editor. But editors are so crucial. But they're very much like the underdogs, almost even more than writers. It's so I love that you got so into this that you're like, wait a minute, who's the editor on this? And then you're like, holy shit, I've seen so much of its work. I love that.
Yeah, and especially for a movie like this where you're getting that repetition of things, you're seeing the whole stuff, Like there's a repetition with the farmer's wife. Okay, yeah,
that's understandable. But you get shots of the one kid has a problem with his foot, Madislav has a problem with his foot, So you get that, and then you come back to it and you see the one kid taking the other cadew and you see that a few times, even the way that this movie ends, And I'm glad I said spoilers before do they get shot?
Do they escape?
Because you get to see them laying on the ground, but then you also get to see them running away as well. It feels like they have their cake and eat it too, and then right towards the end you also see them jumping off of the train again. So it just it's it could be a never ending loop. As far as the way that these kids never escape or they always escape.
I can't remember which reviewer it was, but in the packet that you said as one reviewer compared them to Sissipus, that really stuck with me because and Rob listeners, Rob has a tattoo. You want to explain it, because I'm not going to do it test this yet.
I have Sisyphis on my arm.
Oh.
Yes, as you were saying, this is where it crosses over into not being so historically specific, where it can become philosophical, it can be existential, it can be absurdist. In the yess of Sissifus and Camu.
You take away the swastika on these people's armbands, like the two kids and the SS uniforms, and it's really like the one old man, I really see the Nazi armband on. But if he took those out of the story, it's universal. It can just be these two kids being pursued. It doesn't have to be the World War two set, it could be nineteen sixty four set, but it just adds more to it and of course shows you what
the danger is. We immediately know, oh, these guys were going to be fucked if they got taken to this camp, and maybe they're still fucked right now.
Well, and it's depressing to think about, but if asso there's so many instances throughout history and including right now present time where any groups, various groups of people in various countries are being othered and being attacked and being targeted. And this is why art is so important, because sometimes art is the thing that helps you. Sometimes it can help you be the thing that kind of gives you the bomb where you're like the world is too much,
But other times it gives you truth. You need to fully understand the situation and hopefully be like, yeah, this is horrible. We as a speakies evolve, we get those opposable thumbs working, we have them on our hands. Maybe we can put that on our fucking souls. Here, Aaron and just this madness could be stopped very easily, but
it's like it keeps repeating. But that's why it's so great to have films like this for it's you know what, thank you, thank you Joan for giving us some truth but not giving it to us and some sort of spoon fed little gerber baby way by giving us like, yeah, there are no easy answers. But that's life. That's that's the reality. Sometimes the surrealness is the most real you
can get, because life is saying and sometimes insane. I need a really great way where it is absurd and it's hilarious and it's fun and what was it called. Other times it's absolutely just a complete horror show.
I mentioned the cuny TV intros and outros. I'd mentioned it on a recent episode. I can't remember which one, but I know that I watched one for Women in the Dunes and they also had one of these on archive dot org for this movie. And it's great because Arnold so Lustik is one of the two co hosts of this to the guests for this film, so to actually hear from Lustig talking about this and it really it hurts because they have a very limited time. I
think it's like fifteen minutes or something. So by the end he's like, oh, that's great, but we got to go now, and I'm like, no, no, I want to hear like a two hours of Lustig talking about this, and the other guy is no slouch either, and I'm like, yeah, give me more of this please, because yeah, the extras that are on the Criterion disc I'm very happy about. I cannot recommend enough if people are into these check films.
There's a whole series that came out called The Golden Sixties, and they just are basically little, I want to say, about half an hour or so, maybe a little bit more. I've never noticed the time code because there's just once I get in, it just grabs me and takes me out a ride. Just this whole series, I want to say, it's twenty two episodes, just concentrating each one on a different check director from the sixties, and they do, unfortunately,
really stick to the sixties. So once nineteen seventy comes about, it's oh, and then here's what happened in the rest of their career. I was like, no, no, no, I want to keep following this person, who want to know what they're up to today. But they have a great interview with nemeck on that episode, and they had a shot of the tracking shot, so just to see the track that they built. It was almost like a race track or something that they laid down on the side
of this. It's not a mountain, but a very tall hill. I can't imagine being one of those poor guys who's pushing this fucking cart up this hill, speaking about just pushing it and trying to keep up with these kids that are running little tilt and you're like, oh my god. But just to see that shot of how they did the shot, I would have loved to have seen the documentary about the making of this movie. Of course that's a little bit too much to ask, but wow, just audasty.
And this was his first film. Nemick had done a prior film, had done a couple of shorts in when he was going to Famou. One of them was based on another elustic story about a loaf of bread, and I'd seen clips of that and it's very similar to this, of course, But yeah, this was his first feature. It's an hour and three minutes. Which I love about this too, is that it is I think we've talked longer now than we have than the movie actually runs, which is okay, but there's so much stuff to it.
It's amazing, and honestly, it doesn't need to be a minute longer, especially the whole gall scene where you're stuck with the horrible old man these hunters. That feels like it goes on forever, but not in a way where you're like, it's a bad filmmaking. It's just so uncomfortable. It is so uncomfortable, but it should be. Of course, that's an hundred percent how it should feel. And that is nailed. That was I'm always fascinated when a film can make you uncomfortable in that way too. I don't
know about you, guys. I wouldn't say I'm shaded, but it takes a special it takes the type of movie to make me feel like oh. And in fact, I was talking with a good friend earlier about My Lord and Savior Timothy Carey, and there's a scene in a killing where his character all of a sudden says something really horribly racist to that poor parking attendant, and my heart breaks every time. I get so uncomfortable, it gets so viscerally uncomfortable. And I've seen that movie so many times.
It's a great movie. It's honestly probably my favorite Kuper film. It's like and and part of that it's not just because yeah, obviously I hate racism. The fact we even have to say this since this day and it just depressing. But it's great filmmaking. It's acting with Timothy Carey, and I cannot reverbly be the acturate place a parting tent, but he's great. You love that guy, and just the way he handles it it makes it even more just like,
oh God, oh your heart. So when a film you agree can make you feel like that, but not in any sort of edge lord way, not in any sort of super obvious way where you know that that's why try to be outrageous. Oh you're adorable. It's like when you're a teenager and you really, I'm so angry, I'm going to write this depressing poetry, and then you get older and you look back on and you're like, Jesus
Christ did life? Isn't that advice? It's when you see somebody do it in a way through just straight storytelling and vision in any sort of super obvious way.
I talked about economy of storytelling, and also this is one of those films that it's like the budget on this must have been like thirty five dollars. I really get the feeling that they made this with whatever they had around. There wasn't a lot of money for building sets or anything like that. To me, it feels completely found in terms of how they did it, and I think it flies in the face that people are like, ah, I can't be creative because I need this much money
in order to do something. And it's just as I've talked about before on this show. One of my favorite movies was made for one hundred dollars in a guy's studio apartment. Go with Me First Blood episode to hear all about it. But it, to me is about the creativity that you go, Okay, I'm up against something and I've got to overcome these issues in order to help tell a story. And that's really what creativity is about.
It's about getting excited about the fact that you have things in your way and how you get creative about getting around them.
I love it. That's so true, and I do get irritated, especially when it's filmmakers being like, oh I need so they're like fifty Millioneah. You know, it's like, are you serious? Are you feeding a third world nation? Are you making a movie?
Like?
When it comes to our necessity is the mother of bull invention, Get creative. That's why some of the most groundbreaking films are the ones that are low budget, because the filmmakers had that passion and that vision, but they also didn't have a choice.
Just do it.
God at the same age where you know you have a good camera on your phone, come on, they just do it. Punk rock didn't happen because people waited around to have the right money for production. They just did it.
Yeah, they could have learned how to play a fourth chord, but they didn't.
Since we're talking about big budget film, do I need to tell my Michael Bay story?
No, I've heard it enough.
You don't want to hear it.
I don't want to hear it.
Okay, I won't.
Say that's gonna be my new rings out is Mike saying I don't want to hear it.
If you go back and listen to any of the Trauma episodes that we did, which were a lot in the day, you will hear Rob's Michael Bay story in there. Go ahead, believe, tell you Michael Bay's story. I'm not going to cut you off.
Fine, tell you, stupid little Michael.
Tell your story. I'm in Cohn with this stupid little vampire movie that I made.
So I was, I was in LA I was in Hollywood Store. I was there with Lloyd and Trauma folks. So anyway, Michael Bay happened to be at this party the Trauma put on. I don't, so I went over and talked to him, and I'm like, Hi, how are you? And I knew who he was because Armageddon had just come out the year before, and so I was talking to him about what do you got going on? And he goes, oh, what do you do? And I said, oh, I have a stupid little low budget vampire fume. He goes,
I'm working on making this Pearl Harbor movie. They made me cut twenty million out of the budget last week. And then he says to me, do yourself a favor. Stay independent as long as you can, because if you come here, you don't get to do what you want to do.
Privilege little cock goblin. I cannot stay on that, dear, that's poor little baby. Oh my god, there're people that are fucking homeless. Shut up, Michael Bay, little baby, Oh twenty million, you get suck on it. Seriously, I'm met Rob. Good for you. I would tell that story every chance I get. I would tell it at a croker.
To get it out of him. I said to him, I said, I don't know Army getting made six hundred million box office, no, six hundred million home video, like billion dollars. And this is nineteen ninety eight.
Back when a billion dollars meant something.
Yeah, he goes about that much, goes, they're making me cut alls out of this movie. And then he was just like, eh, don't come here. Stay independent as long as you can.
Oh my god, yeah, stay a dependent that way. I don't know what ever, fuck him, I'm mad now. Michael Bay go, yeah, yeah, it go sexually harassed Megan Fox. Yeah, good lord.
But but meanwhile in Czech Republic thirty years before, they're making movies on a buck and a half, yeah, and doing really interesting shit. I'm gonna paraphrase, but I remember when I was in Cannon, someone went to go see this new Dariyo Argentina film.
Story I'm talking about, okay.
And it was one of the Trauma guys, and he goes, what did you think of the new Dary Argento film? And he goes, hey, man, bad Dario Argento film is better than a good Michael Bay film Mayday.
Yeah, yeah, that's oh. And I've seen some little Vertno, I've seen some questionable shit, but I would take it over. You're right, I would take it. God. I mean it's still yeah Armageddon gross. When you take a movie and put Steve or Shimmy in it and I'm still disgusted, you've had failed there.
Just just remember, stay independent as long as you can. You don't get to do what you want.
Was Michael Bay ever independent? It feels like that guy was born making multi billion dollar films.
You do know the rumor though about his lineage. No, there was a rumor going around for many years that he was the son of John Frankenheimer. That's right. I don't believe that that's true.
He started that rumor, you know he did. He probably like, hey, kid, a real dad's job breaking Himer. Yeah, I don't know's I can't. I can't. Money is so often in this life given to the unworthy, so fuck it, make arden.
Yeah, money is given to the unworthy, and youth is wasted on the young, So that's life.
I did not realize that Michael Bay was a video director before he became I knew he did commercials. I remember he did the Got Milk Aaron Burr commercial, but he also did a ton of videos including I Can Do Anything for Love, but I won't do that, and also the vinyls.
I touched myself, so I hate the fact that he was in a room with Chrissy Amphlet. I love the vinyls. That makes me hate him even more.
I completely sidetracked this entire show. I felt feel free to cut all this out.
Don't cut any of this, I won't cut away.
Also the Meatlock video. I don't know if you gentlemen remember the hilarious twist in that where the love of the fair maiden turns the beast into meat loaf. That's just funny. It's beel. That shit is hilarious. That's just hilarious. I would have loved where she would have been like, I don't know. This makes to think of the rip Shelley of all. But there was the Beauty of the Beast.
Episode of that was kaust Kinski as the Beast. I watched in college because that was in my mad kus Kinski phase and my friend Jen when he turns into class, my friend Schid was like, oh God, he's not cute, he's creepy. I was offended because I'm like, Klaus Kotsy is a great actor. But I look back on it now and I'm like, you know what, she was right, Oh, but there's.
No Robbie Benson. I'll tell you that.
God, he's way better than Robbie Benson. I'm sorry, I know I can't with Robbie Bey I brought anyways, it seems nice. But I'm glad though Robbie brought all this up because honestly, we can leron this very easily because arnestly Yahnamic are the real deal. And this guy was not in any cushy situation to make films at any point of his life. But he did it, and he made films that we're talking about today. That's the thing.
At the end of the day, most people aren't going to talk about how much they were truly moved by a lot of bigger budgeted movies that were made with test screenings and product placements and all of that. They're going to talk about the films that changed them forever, part of them forever, and this is one of them.
Well, I doubt that very much of this was shot on a sound stage. And I know when you come to partying the guests that was all shot out doors, and a lot of Martyrs of the of Love that I remember was also shot out doors. So it's not like he's making easy films either. He's not like set bound, controlling the lights, controlling all this stuff. It's amazing how good this picture looks for being shot in the way that it's being shot. And yet I can't imagine how
many days this was to shoot. It feels like it was very quick to do and just yeah, very low budget, but just so scrappy and just so utra with the way that it's put together. I can't say enough nice things about this movie. All Right, we're gonna take a break and play a preview for next week's show. Right after these brief messages.
The yodinsa NAPOOSI majes no to Dizzily regime Dizzily misami Ranika.
That's right, Cheptember twenty twenty four continues next week when they look at a Slovakian film three twenty two. Until then, I one thing my co host Robin Heather and I know that y'all were both recently on our seven hundredth episode to talk about Colligular the Ultimate Cut. But for folks who haven't made it all the way through that four hour episode, what have you been up to lately?
Heather?
I was so hoping you would be like, what's wrong with you? People finished the Caligula, which it is a great episode. Actually you mentioned see you, see you and why we mentioned that on a recent episode of Protection Booth, I believe on Spirit.
Of the Bee Hive, thank you, That's what it was.
Yeah, no and no, because you said that in my brain was like, oh, which if I listen, if you have a checked that episode out, please do. It's me Robert Bellissimo, who's fantastic and of course our lovely Captain and chief cook here. I was also recently an episode of Movies from Hell Podcasts where I got to talk about work and Stee even Sadian so little little inner work.
And of course, as I did mention on the Khalil episode, there is any blu ray out through Saturn's Core called A World is Drowning and Going to Hell, which is the underground films of Richard Baylor. Not only do I have an essay on that release, and I do the commentary track for Serseium delectus. It's a great set, and Richard Baylor is a very very underground's the word. But I love that this is out. He's such a fascinating director. His work is challenging, it's evocative, it's got such grit
to it and such a fire to it. I think he's a very special director. I'm really excited for people to check his work out. Otherwise, you can find me over at linktree dot com or slash Moto. Heather, you'll find my website, my Patreon in all sorts of assorted sundry.
Goodies and rob how about yourself.
Well, while Heather's doing everything, I'm doing nothing. So it's true. No, I've just been hanging out in the desert and I've written two scripts in the past six months. But outside of that, there's nothing for anywhere for you to go. There's nothing buy, there's no read. If you just want to send well wishes, please do than.
I went to your website the other day and it's down for maintenance.
Yes, yeah, Kenny, perpetuity.
Oh, I was hoping to see all those sexy pictures of you again.
Only okay, I can't give it away. Not that people don't want it, but in this economy, exactly, I can't afford it.
I'm excited about your scripts. I don't know if any of the listeners have been lucky. Rob's a fantastic writer and a very talented mind, so I'm excited to see where you're cooking up. Also, writing the script is fucking hard. Do not sell yourself short. I don't know anything, okay, Captain Humble, come on you.
I don't know anything, but I know everything, so that's okay.
Thank you so much folks for being on the show. Thanks to everybody for listening. If you want to hear more of me shooting off my mouth, check out some of the other shows that I work on. There are all available at readinglymedia dot com. Thanks especially to our Patreon community. If you want to join the community, visit patreon dot com slash Projection Booth. Every donation we get helps the Projection Booth take over the world.
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