Night Sky Prince Interview on Final Fantasy VII Remake's Privilege and Burden | Episode 13

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:17:04 Evan Hey, everybody, welcome to another episode of the ProfNoctis show. I'm Evan and we are so excited for our upcoming interview. This episode with Knight Sky Prince, aka Ryan Wade. What do we need to know about Ryan? And what are some checklist things that we can do to make sure that we're, supporting Prof. 00:00:17:07 - 00:00:19:04 Evan Noctis in all the ways that we can? 00:00:19:07 - 00:00:36:22 Wade Absolutely. So today we are excited to have Knight Sky Prince. he is brilliant. He is not only a Final Fantasy seven creator, but he's got some great theories, some ideas, and you're going to love the way that he processes. Some of the themes that are present in this game. Cannot wait for you to hear a little bit more of his story and all that. 00:00:36:29 - 00:00:57:29 Wade As far as the channel's concerned, we want to remind everybody, make sure that you are liking and subscribing on all of our videos. We've had an amazing season of growth here, and we, really just want to spread this to even more people. And it helps us a ton. If you will like and subscribe over on YouTube, as well as subscribe to our podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, wherever you find podcasts available. 00:00:58:04 - 00:01:03:14 Wade leave a comment, and rate us and all that kind of stuff. We would love to hear from you. And with that, 00:01:30:12 - 00:01:36:20 Wade Hey, everybody, welcome to the prof. Not this show. And today I am not only joined by Evans ahead. 00:01:36:22 - 00:01:39:01 Evan Hey. Hey, everybody. Good to see you. 00:01:39:03 - 00:01:46:23 Wade But we are delighted to have a very special guest today. We have the one, the only, the night sky Prince. What's up Ryan? 00:01:46:24 - 00:01:50:01 Ryan Hello everyone. How's it going? 00:01:50:03 - 00:02:12:02 Wade I am so excited to have you on the show today because, I know that, first of all, you have been, like, one of the big voices in in theories and takes and ideas about, what's going on in this re trilogy, but also, just for everybody in the, in the, the chat and listening and all this stuff. 00:02:12:04 - 00:02:29:24 Wade you're also just one of the coolest guys that I know right now. you know, right. Yeah. Right. And I got to meet back in the Final Fantasy 16 launch event in LA. And ever since then, like, I remember sitting on the couch next to you when there was, like, a lull and, like, this meet and greet sort of thing. 00:02:29:24 - 00:02:51:21 Wade I sat next to you and I was like, Holy crap, I'm sitting next to to NSP right now. Like, are you freaking kidding me? And you were one of the just like, most approachable kind, just like down to earth dudes that I've ever met. And like, it was, it was awesome. So absolutely excited, to hang out with you right now. 00:02:51:24 - 00:03:07:11 Ryan I appreciate that a lot, man. Thank you. I thought you're just the coolest guy as well. And, I mean, I find everything that you do, especially with, like, you know, how you're teaching Final Fantasy, you know, getting the youth into one of the greatest series of all time. Very respectable work. So. 00:03:07:14 - 00:03:25:05 Wade Yeah. No, I appreciate it. Well, Yeah, I mean, your your videos oftentimes come up in our classroom, as a matter of fact. And it's just really. Yeah. Seriously. So, I mean, I guess, like, through your videos and stuff, you can consider yourself a guest lecturer in a university classroom. Uncle, is that one? 00:03:25:08 - 00:03:29:02 Ryan Oh, wow. That's that's crazy. 00:03:29:07 - 00:03:51:22 Wade So, yeah, I always tell my students about you, and, they they love your videos and stuff. So, which is, maybe in some small, very, very tiny way. you just recently had a huge milestone that maybe some students contributed to because you just said 100 K plus, I. Sure. So yes. That's massive. 00:03:51:22 - 00:04:22:06 Ryan Oh, thank you. Thank you so much. I've been doing this seven years I think as of this year. So yeah man it's it's it's crazy. I've seen so many ups and downs of the YouTube but I actually I actually think YouTube is probably at, it's its best point right now. because when I think back on, on YouTube seven years ago and some of the, the stuff now that's so trivial to, to get through, like before we didn't even have like, you know, how now when you upload, it'll actually check and make sure that you didn't violate any copyright stuff. 00:04:22:06 - 00:04:24:27 Ryan Right? Right. That stuff wasn't there a few years ago. 00:04:25:00 - 00:04:25:29 Wade You were in the wild when? 00:04:26:06 - 00:04:40:25 Ryan Few years. Oh my gosh. Yeah. You had to upload and guess and like, you know, pray a couple of hours later you didn't get an email saying, oh yeah, demonetized because YouTube. Yeah, YouTube as YouTube has only gotten better, I think on on multiple fronts. 00:04:40:27 - 00:05:01:06 Wade Oh man. That's that's wild to think. So. Like my channel has only been up for for a year and maybe a couple of months at this point. so like I'm just taking for granted all of these like quality of life luxuries that we've got now. But yeah, pave the way for that. That's amazing. That's amazing. Yeah. Well, I'd love to to hear a little bit. 00:05:01:06 - 00:05:20:23 Wade You've been, I'm shocked to hear that you've been in this for seven years. I really would have thought it was like, maybe you're 15. You're ten. I don't even know. But, seven years just doesn't seem as long as it, I guess the library of videos that you've put out. So I would love to hear, if you don't mind. 00:05:20:25 - 00:05:31:09 Wade How did you get involved in this? Like, what has that seven year period been like? Basically, how did you become like and get to where you are right now? 00:05:31:12 - 00:05:59:18 Ryan Okay, great. so if any of your students are watching this, don't do what I did. that's the first advice is, I was in college and I was just struggling the whole time. I was not making good grades. I was studying my best, but I wasn't doing too well. Honestly, I was a computer science major, so I was already in a pretty difficult major as it was. 00:05:59:18 - 00:06:21:03 Ryan And I was a kid who, honestly, in high school, I. I slept through most of my classes like, I, I was a terrible student in high school. but, you know, when you turn around 18, 19, you graduate, you start to think, oh, yeah, I really need to actually do something with my life, right? Otherwise I'm going to be a loser. 00:06:21:06 - 00:06:50:02 Ryan Yeah. So, you know, college was kind of like when I decided to start getting serious, but it's kind of hard to just start getting serious at that point because you don't have, like, the study habits and all the other things that kind of make you a successful student by default. Adding to the fact that I also have, like the most chronic ADHD and like all these other factors going for me, and you know, and I have like a very atypical, like, learning style as it is. 00:06:50:04 - 00:07:01:14 Ryan And so, you know, one day I just decided, you know, what? I'm quitting. And I had actually gotten to, like, my senior year, believe it or not, I had to do this terrible idea. I don't know. 00:07:01:18 - 00:07:03:18 Wade Your senior year of college. I was like. 00:07:03:18 - 00:07:04:28 Ryan My senior year. Yeah. 00:07:05:01 - 00:07:11:08 Wade Wow. That's I mean, I don't know how many more credits you had, but that's like almost the finish line. You're like, I'm done. 00:07:11:11 - 00:07:13:23 Ryan Dog. I needed like, seven classes. 00:07:13:26 - 00:07:22:28 Evan What do you do? Yeah. Yeah. What? Like, what was it that you just finally tipped you over the edge and you said this. You know what? It's time to move on and do something different. 00:07:23:01 - 00:07:40:05 Ryan You know, I was I was just stressed out. It was a terrible. It was a is a terrible decision. Honestly, I didn't like, you know, kind of maybe not so much in hindsight because I'm like, oh, well, I'm here now, right? But at the time it was, it was, kind of a just like a purely like, emotionally driven decision. 00:07:40:07 - 00:08:03:04 Ryan And, I had like a huge, like, negative thought cycle at the time where I'm like, my grades are so bad, my GPA is so bad, no one's going to hire me anyways. It's terrible. Don't think like that for anyone who's watching, you know, going through this, don't don't think like that. but actually it was during that time where I was like, okay, well, if I'm not going to be in college anymore, what am I going to do with my life? 00:08:03:07 - 00:08:27:20 Ryan So I started like looking into things where I was like, I wonder what I could do to make a little extra money. And then I saw like, oh, okay, well, you know, I bet if I upload YouTube videos I could make like maybe a couple hundred dollars extra a month. that was that was the original plan. I was like, I see other people doing it and I bet I could do it. 00:08:27:22 - 00:08:49:15 Ryan And so I just like, you know, I just downloaded some editing software. that was free. I bought a $40 microphone on off Amazon. I did not even get a pop filter because at the time I was like, nah, pop filters and eight extra dollars. That's kind of cut into my budget, right? Yeah. I'm like, oh, well, I'm like, I'm already spending 40 bucks here on the microphone. 00:08:49:15 - 00:09:07:17 Ryan But like let's, let's, let's just wait and see if it takes off and then dude, so cheap microphone. No. Pottsville dude. And I just started uploading. And then on my sixth video, my sixth video got 300,000 views. Oh yeah. 00:09:07:21 - 00:09:08:11 Wade Oh my. 00:09:08:11 - 00:09:30:12 Ryan God. Yeah yeah. And which is like, unheard of, right. Yeah. It is, was people grind and grind for a really long time. It, it's to the point of where like when, like people ask me for advice, I'm like, man, like I do have advice, but I'm like, dude, I lucked out stupid early. 00:09:30:15 - 00:09:37:24 Wade I got to ask the question, so what was the yeah. What was the video you've been making for the five before that? 00:09:37:26 - 00:09:44:10 Ryan Oh, so the video was, seven reasons that Square Enix games takes so long to me. 00:09:44:12 - 00:09:46:28 Evan Oh, educational. 00:09:47:01 - 00:10:10:23 Ryan Right. Right, right. And and looking back in hindsight, I could actually make that video a lot better and give a lot more detail oriented answers and, but, at the time, I think what was happening is, is that we had Final Fantasy 15 that was taking an incredibly long period of time, as you know, to get out. 00:10:10:25 - 00:10:36:26 Ryan Look, we had yeah, we had Final Fantasy, seven remake that had got announced, and then it also just went quiet for a really long time. And then we also had Kingdom Hearts three, which followed the same pattern as the other two. And so there was just like this burning curiosity from people about like, you know, what is taking so long for these games? 00:10:36:26 - 00:10:58:05 Ryan You know, back when like, you know, in this square off days in the 90s and the 2000, and they were just pumping these titles out and like every year they had a, they had a blockbuster, and now it's like, you know, six years and everyone's left, you know, where are these titles at? And so I think, you know, just the concept of that video and people's curiosity around where those titles were. 00:10:58:07 - 00:11:10:00 Ryan Yeah, generated just a ton of interest because there there was a guy who thought he had an answer. He didn't really have that much of an answer. Now he does. He has a better answer now. Probably not that great still, but. 00:11:10:03 - 00:11:27:17 Wade Well, I got to ask, what what would you change about that video today? Like what would your answer be? Because I mean, we're still kind of in that even though the last year we've seen Dawn Trail Rebirth and 16, but there was a good time between those. so 416 was released. 00:11:27:19 - 00:11:57:23 Ryan Right. So I think I think the thing that I definitely got right in that was, the use of like a riot of proprietary technology. So, square and just a general, common thing for Japanese developers to do. Not as common nowadays, in, in part because of a lot of the hurdles that happened when they transitioned to the HD era with PlayStation three and Xbox 360 was they tend to build a lot of their own tech in-house. 00:11:57:26 - 00:12:21:03 Ryan Right. and games now are so complex that building all of that technology in-house takes years. And then you need teams of people to continue to maintain that technology. Right. But but you know, back in like two days, they'd make Final Fantasy ten and then they'd say, okay, let's make a brand new engine for Final Fantasy 12. 00:12:21:03 - 00:12:47:20 Ryan Right? And nowadays that's like, why would you do that? You know that. Yeah. That's like that's that's just a waste of resources. Yeah. And but it was so much easier and simpler back then because the technology isn't as insane as it is now. And of course, you know, they were still kind of operating on those standard principles when they first transitioned, and then they realized, oh, we really can't do that anymore. 00:12:47:22 - 00:13:11:13 Ryan but what I think I got maybe a bit wrong was that it was something that was I mean, most of it is not even like a specifically Square Enix problem. It's really just a symptom of like, the broader Triple-A games industry. Yeah. And how video games now are so expensive to make. And the average dev time is like 5 to 7 years. 00:13:11:20 - 00:13:24:16 Ryan So I mentioned that, like, you know, I've been doing this YouTube thing for, for, for seven years. But really, you know, if I was a Triple-A game developer, that would only represent one release, right? Probably. 00:13:24:18 - 00:13:49:01 Wade Which is insane to think about. and this is such an important conversation, especially today, right? I mean, when we record this, we are two days out from the release, of AST board, which took, what, three years and 60 team members. And it is just like it's blown up, reviews just like absolute like off the charts, popularity. 00:13:49:04 - 00:14:18:27 Wade And it's it's a success. Right? But it took three years. now it doesn't have the scope and it doesn't have all of the things that say, a Final Fantasy has. But there is a real metric of success with that. And so I think there's something to be said about that sort of thing. it's interesting to hear you say that, especially with a, computer science background and kind of this, this knowledge of Square Enix and their, development time and stuff. 00:14:18:27 - 00:14:19:27 Ryan So, yeah. 00:14:19:29 - 00:14:21:06 Wade I mean, have you played astronaut? 00:14:21:06 - 00:14:23:12 Ryan But I have not gotten the chance. 00:14:23:15 - 00:14:24:02 Wade I haven't either. 00:14:24:07 - 00:14:35:23 Ryan So I am I am hoping to get one soon because I grew up on platformers, Banjo-Kazooie, Mario 64, those sorts of games and so. Right. it's right up my alley. Personally. 00:14:35:23 - 00:14:46:11 Evan Yeah. Is that what you started playing games with? Was like the 64? Tell us a little bit about what made you kind of interested in Fall in Love With Video Games, because it sounds like you like them a lot. 00:14:46:14 - 00:14:54:02 Ryan So my first two video games, were Wolfenstein on like DOS. 00:14:54:02 - 00:14:55:29 Wade Yeah. 00:14:56:02 - 00:15:10:07 Ryan And then my other, my other, my other first game was Mario three, which is still, which is still one of the greatest video games of all time. I'll fight anyone over. It's the best. Dude. 00:15:10:10 - 00:15:20:10 Evan Mario, do you think we had the best 2D? Like the guy from Wolfenstein? The first one, the blind guy who sits his face in the corner that look like beat, look mean and look mean. 00:15:20:12 - 00:15:25:18 Wade But look mean. And then you look around like, oh yeah. 00:15:25:21 - 00:15:27:08 Ryan Okay, I could see it. I could see it. 00:15:27:15 - 00:15:35:05 Wade Funny story. and you're not the first person that said that to me. Like they made me do that face before. Like I was ready. 00:15:35:07 - 00:15:55:08 Ryan Yeah. So, yeah, in, like, Mario three was like, was an insanely good. And, like, it's one of those things that's so break, like, baked in my brain. Yeah. I can, like, immediately see those, like, red curtains from the opening. Oh, like anywhere. And like, I just I just get excited for that. 00:15:55:08 - 00:15:55:28 Wade Yeah. 00:15:56:01 - 00:16:23:17 Ryan Thank you. And, you know, like, one of the privileges, I think, to that, like, kind of millennials, growing up, is that like, we got to see the transition from 2D to 3D games and like, like, I know that like most, most people younger will never, like, really get to have that experience where you see a 3D game for the first time are like a huge technological leap, right? 00:16:23:20 - 00:16:46:05 Wade I mean, yeah, not just the one era for me, you know, seeing Mario 64 really it for me because it was it was I've played all of these side scrolling Mario's. I played Mario RPG and that's like the closest to a 3D Mario that I had. But Mario 64 really showed me what the future of gaming was like. 00:16:46:05 - 00:17:02:11 Wade Now you go back and forth, it's like, oh man, this is a little crude in some ways. Like very like, you know, kind of difficult, in those cases. But was there a specific game like that for you? Was at 64, what what was the first 3D moment for you. 00:17:02:11 - 00:17:03:12 Evan Yeah. Which one really. Yeah. 00:17:03:12 - 00:17:25:27 Ryan Martin Mario 64. It was like the first like true 3D game. Right. And you know as I mentioned like with like Wolfenstein before it, which is like kind of like pseudo 3D where it was like 2D sprites like kind of popped up, propped up in like a 3D environment. Right? But it wasn't truly, three dimensional graphics, like, as we think of it now. 00:17:26:00 - 00:17:51:03 Ryan and I just remember, like, this is like one of my earliest memories really was being at a target and seeing the warp pipe because they had kiosks there. And yeah, seeing the warp pipe and Mario jumping out of the warp pipe at the opening of the game. Wow. I don't know, like, you know, I'd already been playing like Mario three at home. 00:17:51:07 - 00:18:02:03 Ryan And so and I went to target and I saw that it was just it was like it was like, what is this? Yeah. And like, I just remember, you know, screaming at the top of my lungs, I was like. 00:18:02:05 - 00:18:04:24 Evan Oh, you got to see this. 00:18:04:24 - 00:18:13:22 Ryan Go, go, go. And it goes, you know, I left the store like kicking and screaming because, yeah, I was like, we got we got to get Mario. We got to get the 3D months. 00:18:13:24 - 00:18:27:03 Evan Dude. The best thing they used to do was when they would have the like TV way up at the top of the shelf and the little controller that you could hold. And so when you're shopping, you could go play the game like while you were waiting. That was the best sales pitch for those things. 00:18:27:06 - 00:18:42:24 Ryan It was. And like, what was so awesome about it too, for parents is that it was like cruise control from being able to get your shopping done is, you know, like my mom would, just like she dropped me off, like, right there, she can go get like all her shopping done and I'd be right there when she came back. 00:18:43:00 - 00:18:51:09 Evan How cool was it that they let you explore the 3D just by doing the castle kind of first, right? What? Didn't you do the castle first? Like they just let you run around around the castle. 00:18:51:09 - 00:18:52:23 Wade As they were like, and you could unlock. 00:18:52:25 - 00:18:53:07 Ryan It. 00:18:53:10 - 00:19:06:28 Wade Further parts. But yeah, just the the castle alone could have been a game in and of itself at that point because like, it was already amazing. But then the fact that they've added all of these levels on top of that is like, how big is this game? 00:19:07:00 - 00:19:26:15 Evan How do you video games kind of have shaped as you grew up a little bit? Right. They kind of helped you fall in love with them as a form of entertainment, but it sounds like they've had an impact on you as you've grown and developed and gotten older and went to college and things like that, how have they kind of walked alongside you and impacted you as you've kind of grown up? 00:19:26:18 - 00:20:00:07 Ryan Oh, well, that's a great question. so I've always been obsessed with video games. I always saw something like really, really, really special. And, you know, I've always liked, you know, all media really. I think video games have always been particularly important to me because of the interactivity. Right? The fact that, you are in that role and you're the one taking, control of that character and moving them around in space and making the decisions and actually going through the motions of the story. 00:20:00:07 - 00:20:34:08 Ryan So I think even even at a young age, I kind of realized that, like in, like, I guess this may sound somewhat pretentious to say even that like video games, I kind of saw them as like the ultimate art form. Right? Because it, it, it would take every single art form almost in a way that humanity has ever come up with and then put it in one place and then add this really cool element where you were able to interact with the music, with the visuals, with the characters and the writing and all these other elements. 00:20:34:13 - 00:21:18:25 Ryan like this. Like, this is bringing, like, all of human history in a way, together into one place, right? Like engineering, art like music, like all of it is like coming in here, like to one space and, actually, I mean, this is where my soft spot for Final Fantasy comes in is, because I really think that that was the series that where I really realized at a young age, that like, okay, that's what this is, and it was when I played games like in particular f seven and F of ten, those games for me, I watched, you know, plenty of anime and like films and other stuff growing up. 00:21:18:27 - 00:21:45:20 Ryan But I felt like those games had stories beyond anything else that I had ever consumed at the time. And like, I think that, like, you could have took those same stories and maybe made animated films about them or something like that. But there was this element of the fact that I was the one who went through that journey, and I assumed the role of the character that made it stood out so much more. 00:21:45:22 - 00:22:01:27 Ryan And so, yeah, I think, I think even like, even like pre-teens, I had like this realization that Matt, this is this is like beyond anything else that we're doing, like all of people. 00:22:01:29 - 00:22:25:10 Wade And that that is exactly what, I mean, that's the core of my research, by the way. That was my dissertation. Like, what does playing a video game due to the brain and create memories and all this stuff? And can you experience a story even more profoundly by having that agency of control? And so you've exactly said that there is an element of it's a storytelling to the next level. 00:22:25:16 - 00:22:34:09 Wade You know, that an animated film couldn't quite do because you're not controlling it. So just yeah, I can cite you in research now, this. 00:22:34:11 - 00:22:39:21 Evan and my teachers always got mad when I did a speedrun on a book, but they don't care in a video game. 00:22:39:23 - 00:22:45:13 Wade Yeah, yeah, well that's fair. That's. 00:22:45:16 - 00:22:53:18 Wade so you mentioned Final Fantasy, of course. And we, we're going to get into Final Fantasy seven here in a minute. I got to ask, what was your first Final Fantasy? 00:22:53:21 - 00:22:57:20 Ryan so seven was my first Final Fantasy. Okay. Okay. Right. 00:22:57:22 - 00:23:05:06 Wade how did you get into seven then? Like, was it through the commercials? Because there commercials were amazing back then, like, 00:23:05:08 - 00:23:29:13 Ryan yeah, man, the commercials were amazing. So the commercials were something that, that I saw back then. funny enough, I actually played Final Fantasy seven first on a PC. Oh, wow. Yeah. So I had, like, I had, like the PC port first, which is actually very different than. Yeah. then most people I did ends up getting the one version, but I got it later. 00:23:29:13 - 00:23:53:11 Ryan So my first experience with dev seven was, was on PC and like, I would always see, the commercials in the art everywhere, and I wanted the game, and I never was able to get the game, until like a few years later. And then eventually, I had the PC for it, and I, I immediately realized the brilliance in the game. 00:23:53:11 - 00:24:24:07 Ryan I was like, this is like one of the most genius games I ever played. Just seeing, like, the transition of, like the opening FMV movie to like the, the in-game graphics and, it was just it was mind blowing at the time. And that was a super special experience. But, I think actually ten when I played ten years later, that was kind of the moment for me where I like really doubled down on this series. 00:24:24:09 - 00:24:45:29 Ryan And for I think with ten especially to, this was kind of the era when fully voice acted video games were becoming a thing. Yeah. And so when I was seeing ten and it was, you know, the characters had acting now and there's, there is this level of tangibility to it that that wasn't there before. Yeah. wow. 00:24:46:01 - 00:25:02:24 Ryan I was, I was so immersed into into Final Fantasy ten and, I think that like, maybe the scene of unit dancing on the water was like, that may have been a scene that changed the trajectory of my like. 00:25:02:27 - 00:25:07:06 Wade Yeah, I. How old were you when you first played that one? 00:25:07:08 - 00:25:08:00 Ryan ten. 00:25:08:03 - 00:25:09:11 Wade Ten years old. Yeah. 00:25:09:11 - 00:25:30:14 Ryan No. no, I mean, I was, I was oh, I was like, do you mean ten or do you mean seven? Oh, that's when I first played it. When I first played ten, I want to say I was in I was in fourth, fourth grade, so. Right. So I had to be, 11, something like that. I was like, oh, yeah. 00:25:30:16 - 00:25:59:10 Wade That scene is powerful. and as a child, you know, kind of pre-teen at that point, you know, how did that story kind of you say it changed the trajectory of your life as an 11 year old? Talk to me about that. because it's a little bit different playing it today. are you revisited? Tend not to go as a matter of like, what do you remember from that first experience of that dance in that pre-teen mind? 00:25:59:10 - 00:26:01:10 Wade And what did that do for you? 00:26:01:13 - 00:26:42:20 Ryan So I think whenever you look back on these games, right, it's really interesting. Like one thing I've noticed about people is that, like in discourse about these games, sometimes people will say, is just nostalgia, you know? And of course, nostalgia is always kind of an element with these things. But what I've actually found as I've gone back on these games was that there is something about my subconscious that was like picking up on things and realizing they were incredibly deep, but not having the words or the mental maturity to actually articulate what it was that made those moments special. 00:26:42:20 - 00:27:04:08 Ryan Right? Like. And now, as a grown man, yeah, I can I can really dig deep into why that scene with you, the dancing was powerful or why, you know. Yeah. you know, the scene with Aerith and seven is powerful, but like, you know, as a kid, you just you just know it's like you're feeling a thing and it got you to feel like being. 00:27:04:08 - 00:27:24:02 Ryan A lot of times you think it's because the cool imagery and of course, that is what gets you into it, right? You think cloud has a cool sword and and, you know, you like, you think Midgar is cool just because it looks cool and not because of the deeper commentary that Midgar is actually making. Right? And it's just like it. 00:27:24:03 - 00:27:51:11 Ryan It's not that you don't, or I should say, like you don't consciously know those things, but I do think that even as a child, you do subconsciously kind of realize, like, there is some symbolism here that I can't quite all connect together like, but I do understand that I'm resonating with this on some type or deeper level, and it's telling me something about life and how I view life. 00:27:51:13 - 00:27:53:28 Ryan And I don't know what that is yet, but I feel it. 00:27:54:03 - 00:28:05:20 Evan That's really cool. Could you guys maybe explain a little bit about what that scene is, just briefly, for those who maybe haven't played the game or don't know kind of what we're referencing when you're talking about, you know, dancing on the water just real quick. 00:28:05:22 - 00:28:40:12 Ryan Okay. so there is a scene where said there's a giant whale monster that's representing all of humanity's transgression, who goes around attacking civilizations, making sure that those civilizations never get more technically advanced? and they never, like, basically build their civilization up. Their culture kind of stays stagnant as a result. And sin has just attacked an island called silica, destroyed it. 00:28:40:15 - 00:29:06:12 Ryan we don't know what the exact death toll is, but it's presumed that quite a number of people died. In fact, during this scene, when the scene goes, like, underwater, it shows that there's quite a few number of bodies that are laying, like, within the water. and Yuna basically has to perform, this spiritual ritual where she sends the souls of the dead to a place called the Farplane, which is where those souls can rest. 00:29:06:12 - 00:29:27:07 Ryan Because if those souls don't go to rest, they can end up becoming fiends and, which are essentially monsters that didn't attack people and cause more death and so, and it's a very beautiful scene where Yuna essentially walks on water, and then she dances on water. And as the faith, you know, the souls of the dead emerge. 00:29:27:07 - 00:30:06:02 Ryan They basically cause her to to levitate on the water and pushes the water up, and she's just dancing on the water. And so it's this release of of souls and this joining of, of people together to mourn the loss of the dead. but it's also kind of like this. It displays this burden that Yuna has where Yuna has to keep guiding all of these people who are dying way earlier than they should as a result of sin. 00:30:06:04 - 00:30:36:01 Ryan has to keep guiding their souls to the farplane. And her ultimate journey is kind of like re instills her resolve that we have to allow this tragedy, or we have to stop this tragedy, from continuing to happen. And so, that scene is just is one that it's really beautiful. I mean, visually, it's beautiful. And I think, you know, if you look at it even now, you know, the, the visuals on that have that barely aged a day, it's still so gorgeous to look at. 00:30:36:01 - 00:30:47:06 Ryan But it also just really, represents a lot of deep things that are happening with the story and with the units character arc in particular. 00:30:47:08 - 00:31:03:03 Wade That was incredibly well said. I think credibly, maybe one of the best summations that I've heard of the the presenting problem in Final Fantasy ten and, especially Juno's dance. So thank you for that. We're going to close that. That was a good one, man. 00:31:03:05 - 00:31:04:25 Ryan Yeah. Please. Yeah. Thank you, thank you. 00:31:04:25 - 00:31:11:11 Evan Yes. The cuff. Yeah. Yeah. You like you loaded it up like locked and loaded. Put the card and you're. 00:31:11:12 - 00:31:12:06 Ryan Off to the races. 00:31:12:09 - 00:31:18:01 Wade I was about to, but you said it way more eloquently than I did. That was amazing. So thank you. 00:31:18:03 - 00:31:20:06 Ryan yeah, I've been thinking a lot about ten lately, so. 00:31:20:07 - 00:31:38:26 Wade Oh, really? Yeah. And I've been following that journey a little bit. watching a few of your, your videos and, certainly your your summation video on it. after you finished it all. Why, it just still works. And, it's compelled me to replay it myself. Now, I'm a little swamped right now, but, as soon as I get a chance. 00:31:38:26 - 00:31:39:26 Ryan To, there's. 00:31:39:28 - 00:32:09:17 Wade One that I want to revisit because it's beautiful, just like you said. But that's that's what this series really is. I mean, we we see this beauty in this technological immersion, from the storytelling, the acting, the FMV, the videos and all this stuff, and that draws us in. But then there's this deeper level of understanding the symbolism, the, the meanings spiritually, as, humanity in relationships. 00:32:09:17 - 00:32:11:07 Wade There's all of these different layers. 00:32:11:07 - 00:32:30:14 Evan Okay everyone, it is that time of the episode where we limber up and do our mini game Stretch Break, and we are here with Ryan aka night Sky Prince. So let's get some stretches in real quick. Everybody, wherever you are, wherever you find yourself, it's okay. Whatever you're dealing with, whatever's occupying your mind right now, you're going to get through it, right, guys? 00:32:30:14 - 00:32:31:24 Evan They're going to get through it. 00:32:31:26 - 00:32:33:24 Wade Yeah. If I can get through these stretches, I'm feeling. 00:32:33:28 - 00:32:41:26 Evan You're going to get through it. You can get through it. It'll be great. But it wouldn't be a mini game stretch break without our intro music. Let's hit that intro. 123. 00:32:41:28 - 00:32:45:09 Wade Bam bam bam bam bam bang bang bang. 00:32:45:12 - 00:32:51:29 Ryan That's not bad. Dun dun dun dun dun dun. 00:32:52:01 - 00:32:55:25 Wade Y'all, y'all went for the second round on that one. I was done after that. 00:32:55:27 - 00:32:57:16 Ryan I don't know how loud we were going. 00:32:57:19 - 00:33:00:01 Evan No can't two last time. 00:33:00:05 - 00:33:09:05 Wade Like a pro move there from Clark right. Schrodinger's baby seal where I took out my headphones so that I would not be distracted by the noise that it. 00:33:09:11 - 00:33:12:01 Evan As he called it. My intentional disrespect for. 00:33:12:04 - 00:33:13:00 Wade Your intentional. 00:33:13:00 - 00:33:33:27 Evan Disrespect? Well, exactly right. We are here with Ryan now, you guys. Brent's taking a little break from the interview. I hope you are enjoying it. We're going to do our mini game Stretch Break now. So I have the bingo wheel of vulnerability numbered one through 50. Our balls inside. We will pick a number here. And then Wade's going to ask questions from what do we have for our question deck today, Wade. 00:33:33:29 - 00:33:46:08 Wade for our question deck, we have the geek therapy card deck from our friends over at Geek Therapeutics. these are 87 practices to improve thoughts, build insight, take action in your life, and de-stress. And that's what we're about right now I. 00:33:46:08 - 00:33:52:11 Evan Love it okay, so numbers one through 50 Ryan as our guest. Which number would you like to guess? 00:33:52:13 - 00:33:54:12 Ryan let's go with 12 okay. 00:33:54:12 - 00:34:03:27 Evan 12. Wade. 3237 is my guess. All right, Ryan, tell me when to stop, and I'll grab one of these. Bingo. 00:34:03:29 - 00:34:07:07 Ryan And stop. 00:34:07:09 - 00:34:13:16 Evan All right. It's a yellow one. 00:34:13:18 - 00:34:20:28 Evan 40. So, listener, if you get 40, the numbers were one through 50. If you guess 40, you got it right. Thanks for participating. Give us the 40th question there, Wade. 00:34:21:01 - 00:34:47:10 Wade 40th question through. Okay, here we go. this one, the topic is video games. so here is the question. Action and action and adventure games tend to require the player to earn items to progress through the game to solve puzzles. There are times when progress cannot be obtained without earning a special item to solve the, the puzzle in front of you. 00:34:47:10 - 00:35:14:01 Wade So what problem and what item might, what problem is challenging you today? And what item do you think you still need to solve this problem? What problem is I know, right? What problem facing you today and what item do you think that you still need? 00:35:14:04 - 00:35:20:01 Evan We'll we'll go first if you want some time to think. But we would will offer you the floor if you would like to kick us off. But no pressure. 00:35:20:05 - 00:35:23:00 Ryan No, you you go first. I think on this one I gotcha. 00:35:23:00 - 00:35:46:21 Evan Yeah, yeah. So I think for me I have been in a season of life where I am not being able to get past things that are not working out, whether it's a problem that I have something that I'm trying to fix, a problem I'm trying to solve, I get stuck in that kind of negative ruminating loop where I'm thinking about the problem when I want to be more present in another situation, like I just can't. 00:35:46:21 - 00:36:03:05 Evan Like, I just keep thinking about all the same solutions over and over again, maybe hoping that I'll come up with some quick fix that'll save me some money or time. or I'll kind of move past the problem. and so I think the item that I need is honestly right in front of me, and I think it is a pen and paper. 00:36:03:07 - 00:36:28:08 Evan I think it's a magical item I need. I think I need a pen and paper and the resilience and the fortitude to be able to actually write these things down. And I found myself writing some of those things down before I left town this weekend, and I really found that it helped break that cycle and that loop in my mind, and helped me to really enjoy the things that I was doing more, rather than just being stuck and ruminating on my problems because I felt like they were down on paper. 00:36:28:08 - 00:36:37:20 Evan I didn't have to keep trying to remember them over and over, and it helped me to really kind of move past it. So I think what I need to do is engage with a pen and paper a little bit more myself. 00:36:37:22 - 00:36:58:06 Wade Wow, that's good. That's a good answer. Good answer of them. our next, my favorite item in a video game of all time, is, the hookshot from A link to the past Zelda link to the past. And, like, the thing that makes me think about that right now is like, when I was playing that game as a kid. 00:36:58:06 - 00:37:23:13 Wade And even when I pick it up today, you always see something. You're like, I know there's a way for me to get over there, but I don't know how to do it. And once you get the hook shot, you're able to zip right over there as low as though it is nothing. And I feel like I'm at a point right now, at least in my week, at the start of the week, in my life, maybe where it's like I see the destination where I kind of want to be maybe in like six months or in a year or something like that. 00:37:23:20 - 00:37:45:10 Wade And I just need some metaphorical hookshot to, like, launch me for there, you know? And so like that would just make things a lot easier. Now, what does that mean for me? I think that it probably means that I've got to kind of figure out the exact toolkit that I need. personally, maybe in opportunities and all that kind of stuff to, to launch myself into the, the next phase or chapter of my life. 00:37:45:12 - 00:37:49:01 Wade but yeah, a metaphorical hook shot for me. what about you, Ryan? 00:37:49:05 - 00:37:49:20 Evan Love it. 00:37:49:22 - 00:38:13:01 Ryan Okay, so I think I do think I actually have a good answer. Your pen and paper, analogy or discussion really inspired something in me. So I would actually say, what I need is my iPad over here, and, my Apple Pencil and, it's drawing. Yeah. And the problem, the problem that I, that I have is that I, I stress out a lot in life. 00:38:13:02 - 00:38:29:27 Ryan Like, I just, I just have a tendency, to just really hold a lot of stress. And I found that, like, one of the only things that I can really do other than going to the gym, to really relieve that stress is draw. And I don't ever share any of my art or anything that I work on with anyone. 00:38:30:00 - 00:38:56:20 Ryan However, it's just something that I do for myself purely. And, it allows me to, kind of connect with the side of myself that I don't get to express anywhere else. And so, it's just creativity for creativity sake. And there's just a joy in doing that, especially when there's no obligation to it that allows me to be within my own skin in a weird way. 00:38:56:23 - 00:39:03:07 Ryan and not have to, you know, do something that like, is for the sake of others at any capacity that makes sense. 00:39:03:09 - 00:39:07:03 Wade Know I love it so, so much. Thank you for that, Ryan. That's great. 00:39:07:08 - 00:39:27:18 Evan Thanks so much for participating and sharing with this, everybody. Let's get one more little baby stretch in everybody. We're going to get back to the episode in a second. But make sure that you're nice and stressed out and relaxed. And whether it's a pen and paper or whether it's your iPad, or my brain absolutely blanked on what you said. 00:39:27:18 - 00:39:28:25 Evan Hook shot a hook shot. 00:39:28:25 - 00:39:31:02 Wade Thank you. I was like, not not a real Zelda. 00:39:31:05 - 00:39:47:01 Evan That's nothing in order. And I was like, oh, no. Or whether it's a hook shot or whether it's, the ability to remember the things that your friends just told you. those things can be helpful as well. We hope, that you are a little bit inspired. And let's get back to that episode. 00:39:47:01 - 00:40:02:17 Wade what I'd really love to do is to, to hear a little bit about your experience, with Final Fantasy seven, you know, you you played Final Fantasy seven as a kid before ten, so I'm presuming you were like eight, seven, eight, nine years old. 00:40:02:21 - 00:40:04:14 Ryan Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:40:04:17 - 00:40:29:29 Wade And you said that it captivated you and stuff. So even as a kid, your experience of seven leading you into this series and then rekindling that love of seven, through the remake project, especially the lead up into it in the hype and all that stuff. Talk to us a little bit about the enduring memory and meaning of seven. 00:40:30:02 - 00:40:33:29 Wade from your childhood to today, man. 00:40:34:03 - 00:41:16:03 Ryan So if we're talking about like seven from the perspective of me as a child and honestly, even as a teenager, because, that's when Advent Children came out and a lot of the compilation titles came out. So, because of that, it felt like I was experiencing Final Fantasy seven throughout my whole youth. so, you know, it's really interesting because of that Final Fantasy seven in particular feels like this period of life rather than like, this singular moment in a way that a lot of video games can, especially because of how fast a lot of that stuff was coming out back then. 00:41:16:05 - 00:41:47:04 Ryan but, so, guys like, you know, again, it goes back to not really picking up on how deep a lot of that stuff is, but it just looked so cool. It just looked. Yeah. Oh, cool. This guy is riding on a motorcycle with a sword and like, I just like, I just remember the scene where they escape from Shinra HQ being the coolest scene. 00:41:47:04 - 00:42:07:29 Ryan Yeah, that I had ever. Like. Yeah. it was just mind blowing, man. Cloud, like, breaking through the glass and he's got the sword. And then it gets even better because then there is a mini game. Then there's a mini game where you're on the bike and you're just swiping the sword at, like, you know, the guys as they like, drive by it. 00:42:07:29 - 00:42:30:17 Ryan I'm like, this is the coolest. This is the coolest thing ever. and again, it was just it was so stimulating and, I guess, like as I grew older, it also kind of played into my. So this was like, you know, Advent Children came out like 2005 and. 00:42:30:18 - 00:42:31:10 Wade Something like that or. 00:42:31:16 - 00:42:38:09 Ryan Something like that. And that's when, like, that's when like emo culture was a really big. All right. 00:42:38:10 - 00:42:38:27 Wade It was big. 00:42:38:28 - 00:43:30:14 Ryan Yeah. That's when that's an emo culture was a really big deal. And Advent Children, advent children like became like this really weird cultural intersection between like email culture and like JRPGs. And somehow like for a very long period of time, emo culture and like JRPGs were like intrinsically linked. Yeah. Like, you know, and so like Final Fantasy seven, became like kind of like the center point of, my life once again where it was like, kind of updated to have a look that was relevant to my identity and the cultural identity of, you know, a lot of Western culture at the time as it was so big. 00:43:30:18 - 00:43:37:21 Evan What did that look like for you? It sounds like you had like some outfits, maybe a hairstyle change. 00:43:37:23 - 00:43:45:14 Ryan how deep gray. Great question, great question. my hair was long and straightened down to here. 00:43:45:14 - 00:43:46:21 Evan Yes. 00:43:46:23 - 00:43:47:21 Wade Nice. 00:43:47:24 - 00:44:08:08 Ryan yeah. And, Yeah. and I was wearing all black all the time. Except it was it was funny because I became an emo in the middle of the school year, so I still had white shoes, and I had to convince around to buy me black shirts. I'd be wearing all black and then white shoes. So I looked kind of like goofy. 00:44:08:10 - 00:44:09:12 Evan Did you get your black shoes? 00:44:09:12 - 00:44:13:13 Ryan Eventually I got my black shoes. Were you like the rest of my fits? 00:44:13:13 - 00:44:17:25 Evan Is it vans or convert it? Did you have like a specific brand that you really wanted? 00:44:17:27 - 00:44:38:08 Ryan I think, I think, I think I had some vans, if I recall correctly, had to because I was. Yeah, yeah man that was, that was what was big. I remember, I remember like, like trying to, like learn guitar. I got like a cheap and a cheap guitar for, like, you know, I remember those, like, guitar amp bundles that were like 100 something dollars. 00:44:38:08 - 00:44:50:18 Ryan And, like, I try to, like, learn, like electric guitar because I'm like, oh, my God. Like, this is like, like all the emo girls would think, I'm so cool if I can like, like, play electric guitar. 00:44:50:21 - 00:44:54:20 Wade We were this close to a night sky, Chemical Romance. Oh, if. 00:44:54:20 - 00:45:18:04 Ryan Only we were. Yeah, yeah, I mean, oh dude, I love Gerard Way. oh my God. My Chemical Romance is like, everything. And then, God, dude, I don't even know if, like, do do to. Does Gen Z even know about, like, a ncvhs like that maybe. Yeah, I do that, I don't. Yeah, I actually don't know. 00:45:18:04 - 00:45:37:21 Ryan But like, if they don't, that was like people would basically take a song and then they would just like make like a music video until like a game or an anime to that song. And yeah, I mean may seem cringe now, but that was life took to millions of views that. 00:45:37:24 - 00:45:46:03 Wade I mean, I see things very similar to it, and I'm like, oh man, this is like the resurgence of Bellbottoms or something like Tom's just circular. 00:45:46:06 - 00:45:55:15 Ryan Yeah, yeah. No, it's coming back, it's coming back, it's coming back in the form of TikToks or so. Right. Because I kind of see it every now and then and I'm like, I know what that is. Here we. 00:45:55:15 - 00:45:58:13 Wade Go. That's a bandwagon I can, I can, I'll teach you. 00:45:58:13 - 00:45:59:27 Ryan Yeah, yeah. 00:46:00:00 - 00:46:21:19 Evan I do think we're revisiting things that were really good and just can be revisited with better technology. And there's times that that's done well and there's time there's that's done very poorly. I think we're all really excited about a remake or something when it goes really well, and it's a great revisioning, and when it feels like it's just a cash grab, you know, we're all kind of nervous, like, I'm going to watch it anyways. 00:46:21:19 - 00:46:42:02 Evan I'm going to play it anyways because I loved it. But like, please be good. Like please just be good. I need you to be good. Don't waste my time. And I wonder how you feel about as we kind of transition into some of your thoughts on the remake trilogy and where you've been, how did you feel when they announced that they were doing the remake? 00:46:42:02 - 00:46:46:10 Evan Like, where where were you at? Take us back to that moment. 00:46:46:12 - 00:47:07:21 Ryan Oh my God. I was kicking and screaming. Happy or sad. I was kicking and screaming. I was happy it was, if I'm not mistaken, the announcement trailer is still one of the most viewed video game trailers of all time. I think it's like, I don't know if it's number one or not, but it's like a top five. 00:47:07:21 - 00:47:35:09 Ryan Like, I think like the only. Yeah, like the only thing that's like, touching it is something like a Grand Theft Auto six like reveal trailer. aside from that. Yeah. It's like it's in, like the top 5 or 10 most viewed game trailers of all time. So it was it was incredible. there are stories about how the developers would watch reaction videos from people, to keep their motivation up during the game's development. 00:47:35:12 - 00:48:05:20 Ryan but what I find funny is that it wasn't really just, doing that. I found myself just bingeing everyone's reaction videos. At the time. There was an energy to the announcement of that trailer that has not been replicated with anything at all since, like people were like, I mean, of course there is still like the the old game trailers.com video of like Kyle Bosman and all those guys. 00:48:05:20 - 00:48:29:26 Ryan They were like standing in their chair like, oh there I was like, oh my god. Oh my god. Yeah. Like they're freaking out. just videos of people screaming. And what I love about that trailer is just how deliberate it was. Yeah. it does not say the words Final Fantasy seven at all. And what I think is so beautiful about it is that that trailer starts very obtuse, like the first few frames of it. 00:48:29:28 - 00:48:52:16 Ryan You're like, what is this? Like, it makes the most obscure Final Fantasy seven references. And then as you go along in that trailer, the references get more and more clear and on point. And at some point, the trailer in itself is almost like, how big of an FF7 are you? Because if you are, you'll recognize it in like almost the first few frame. 00:48:52:16 - 00:48:53:10 Wade By frame one. 00:48:53:10 - 00:48:56:29 Ryan Right? Yeah. You're like, oh, oh. But if you're if. 00:48:56:29 - 00:49:00:03 Wade You're is it if you're normal. 00:49:00:05 - 00:49:18:17 Ryan You know, like the third or fourth shot when they're kind of like zooming out and like showing like Midgar and the lights and stuff like that. And then you're like. And my favorite part, I think actually going back to that game trailer.com reaction was just like, they were like freaking out. And they were saying, please don't be a movie. 00:49:18:20 - 00:49:41:14 Ryan Please don't be, because that's how everyone that is. That is exactly. Yeah. Because everyone's like, you know, we had just went through this whole, you know, decade of like FF7 is popular, so we're going to pump out every FF7 thing possible. And everyone was begging and pleading for remakes. Everyone's like, please let this be an actual remake, right? 00:49:41:16 - 00:50:05:13 Ryan And so in the final shot, which is so beautiful, that's when they get very explicit. This is Final Fantasy seven. If you live under a rock and you haven't noticed all these shots of Midgar, this is this is Barrett's gun arm, and that's Cloud's buster sword. And they pan up to it and they show the back of Cloud's head, and then they show the logo, and then the screen just flashes. 00:50:05:14 - 00:50:06:12 Wade Remake, remake. 00:50:06:12 - 00:50:38:22 Ryan And it's when the screen flashes, remake. And all of those reactions were everyone of three. They lose it, man. They lose it. They lose it. and that was also the point for me. We're out. It's just like it's like, okay. And what's funny is, is that earlier that morning, actually, Silicon ERA ran an article that said Final Fantasy seven remake announced exclusively for PS4. 00:50:38:24 - 00:51:12:11 Ryan and it made the rounds and at the time and E3 was popular, everyone was like, yeah, that's not happening. Because every there's always rumors that, oh, they're going to remake Final Fantasy seven. Yeah. And so everyone was just everyone just like wrote that off. Everyone was like, it's not happening. And so that's why when you go back and you watch those reaction videos to you, you know, it happened right after he announced the world the Final Fantasy, which is another really cute Final Fantasy spinoff. 00:51:12:13 - 00:51:29:28 Ryan I remember, one of the big heads for PlayStation at the time he was there speaking, and then the back of the background turns into, like, a little live stream thing. And he's like, many years ago, we released a groundbreaking title for PlayStation, and the whole audience just. 00:51:30:01 - 00:51:33:05 Wade Holding their breath like, heard me again. 00:51:33:07 - 00:51:47:00 Ryan So I don't yeah, I don't think that there has ever been another video game announcement that was palpable in the same way that FF7 Remake's first announcement was. 00:51:47:03 - 00:52:00:03 Evan I called blade, I like and I yeah, I, I called him, I was like, hey, we haven't talked to in a little while because I don't think I lived near you anymore. And she's like, but I we have to talk. I need to know what you think. 00:52:00:05 - 00:52:02:16 Ryan Yeah, yeah. And that. 00:52:02:16 - 00:52:19:23 Wade Was it. I, I was with, a group of people, like, I think having dinner or something like that. There were a bunch of people at my house for some reason, and I was watching the press conference on my phone. Right. And, just kind of, like, off in a corner while they're, like, hanging out or whatever it is. 00:52:19:26 - 00:52:20:06 Ryan and like. 00:52:20:10 - 00:52:35:05 Wade I, I see it and I like, I like, start, like almost shaking and jittering and stuff. And I finally just said, hey, y'all shut up, shut up. Y'all going to see this? And we're all watching on my little phone at this point, I was like, this is Final Fantasy seven. No, no it's not. That's like a little kid and stuff. 00:52:35:08 - 00:52:41:21 Wade Then you see the Buster Sword and I think somebody was like, oh, it's that guy from Smash Brothers. I was like, I will end you if you call him. 00:52:41:21 - 00:53:05:29 Ryan That's right. And and that's exactly what I mean too. Is that like, you start watching it, you're just like, what is this? And one of the things that's so beautiful about that trailer is how they play into, like, how the mystery of what they're presenting by using, a track called Beyond the Wasteland, which is a very foreboding track where it's just like it's meant to make you feel uncomfortable. 00:53:06:02 - 00:53:07:11 Ryan Yeah, right. 00:53:07:13 - 00:53:35:06 Wade And the phrasing that they use in there, you know what? Whatever comes, it may bring joy. It may bring fear, and all of this stuff. But whatever it is, like, they are coming back and, I rewatched that, especially in light of the story that they are telling in the remake trilogy. And I'm like, all along they kind of knew, like, hey, this is going to rub some people like the right way. 00:53:35:06 - 00:53:51:12 Wade The wrong way, and there's going to be a lot of curiosity about this for three full games. and of course, at that point, I think they were thinking 4 or 5 even, some something in their. But to me, when did that trailer drop? 2015, I think it was 2015. I look. 00:53:51:12 - 00:53:51:24 Evan At. 00:53:51:26 - 00:53:56:24 Ryan 2025, 2015 because it was a year before Final Fantasy 15. 00:53:56:24 - 00:54:21:03 Wade Came out. Yeah. So we get that trailer and we get like little drips of information for five years until, you know, what is it? April, I think of 2020, you know, height of Covid and pandemic and all this kind of stuff. The game releases, most of us are still in lockdown to some degree, and we're just all consuming this thing. 00:54:21:07 - 00:54:43:14 Wade And we are all driven online, right? Talk about it and stuff. So I'm really curious. You know, we we have all this expectation and anticipation for this game, this remake and then remake comes out and catch us up to speed on where you are were with the remake, and then we're going to transition over to rebirth. 00:54:43:14 - 00:54:58:08 Wade five years between the trailer, announcement of Final Fantasy seven remake all the way to the height of Covid, the pandemic were all locked down. April of 2020, final Fantasy seven remake is released, and we play this game. 00:54:58:14 - 00:55:04:09 Wade And it has this kind of subtle. 00:55:04:12 - 00:55:05:02 Ryan dare I say. 00:55:05:02 - 00:55:06:09 Wade Deviation in. 00:55:06:09 - 00:55:08:03 Ryan Some way. 00:55:08:05 - 00:55:29:05 Wade from the original game where it's clear that this isn't just a remake. It's a full reimagining. Some people of the sequel, all the stuff. When you finished remake, where were you in that headspace as far as like, what is this thing? How were you making sense of it? And then I'd love to bounce off that that about what rebirth did. 00:55:29:07 - 00:55:55:08 Ryan Okay. So what before remake came out, there were some hints that it was not going to quite follow the same path. Right. But for the most part, in all the marketing material that we got, we we kind of thought that like, okay, like, this is mostly a faithful remake. They're expanding quite a lot of things, but they're not going to deviate too far, from the beaten path. 00:55:55:14 - 00:56:22:02 Ryan And, depending on who you're talking to and what your perspective of deviation is, I suppose you could definitely argue that they haven't done this then in some ways, but in other ways, they, they definitely have. Right. and so when I first beat remake, it was very weird, right? Because, I was, fortunate enough to have received a review copy at the time. 00:56:22:05 - 00:56:25:06 Ryan And so I was playing this ahead of the rest of the world. 00:56:25:12 - 00:56:26:05 Ryan Wow. 00:56:26:07 - 00:56:32:29 Ryan And, imagine sitting on that ending before everyone else. 00:56:33:01 - 00:56:33:09 Ryan I. 00:56:33:09 - 00:56:34:29 Wade Can not imagine. 00:56:34:29 - 00:56:36:21 Ryan Is, Yeah. 00:56:36:22 - 00:57:00:19 Ryan Like sitting sitting on that ending, you know, for, like, you know, like a couple of weeks before everyone else got to it. And the whole time I'm just like, oh my God, nobody else knows about this. And there was there wasn't too many people I could really talk to about it. And, my first reaction to it was, I really didn't like it. 00:57:00:21 - 00:57:05:18 Ryan I hated it. I had a strong visceral negative reaction to it. 00:57:06:05 - 00:57:27:08 Ryan And, I think a lot of people did that seem to be like the, the, the synopsis of it when people were first getting to it. However, where I noticed the, the tide began to kind of turn on, it was when a lot of theory crafters and a lot of people who, were a lot more open minded to it, got their hands on it. 00:57:27:10 - 00:57:54:19 Ryan And they began to, kind of, take that material and bring out what they thought the developer's true intentions were with that. So you had like, Max, dude, you had sleep easy, you had Schrodinger's baby seal and those sorts of people, who were real Lord Masters of of seven. And, they were able to, kind of make some pretty convincing arguments to people that actually this has quite a lot of depth to it. 00:57:54:21 - 00:58:23:17 Ryan And, this could actually ends up making a better ultimate Final Fantasy seven. and so that really began to shift the perception of that ending the other way for people. we're a common sentiment that I found was, is that people would say, I kind of hated it when I first watched it, but then I listened to some people kind of talking about it, and it's already opening my mind on on what this could be. 00:58:23:17 - 00:58:55:19 Ryan And now I look back on it and, and I really love it. it was it that really didn't like it didn't do it for me personally. Right? Yeah. Because I was I was still sort of like, and I guess for me personally, the parts of it that were worrying was at the end to Final Fantasy seven remake, Zack appears to be revived either through some sort of time glitch or a multiverse. 00:58:55:22 - 00:59:21:27 Ryan there's a lot of conjecture on that, and I don't mean to add to that, but of course, it does appear that in some way, shape or form, Zack has been resurrected. A guy who dies a few months before the beginning of Final Fantasy seven is essentially alive again. And I mean, kind of the way that I read it was just, is this a fan service resurrection of a character simply because he's popular? 00:59:21:27 - 00:59:48:03 Ryan Right? And I think where my value system was on this was, is that one of the reasons that I love Final Fantasy seven so much is that as I got older and I realized a lot of how a lot of media didn't kind of show respect for death and character, death and the the moment the character got popular, the thing to do was to retcon their death and resurrect them or bring them back. 00:59:48:06 - 01:00:28:26 Ryan And so I'm like, are they taking these sacred moments in Final Fantasy seven and now making it so that, like, we can just follow the jRPG status quo, where if there is something about reality that we don't like, we can just kill God and make reality and, you know, whatever we want to be. And, and this is actually, you know, something where actually my respect for Final Fantasy 15 actually kind of comes in in a way where I was I would say that, like with Final Fantasy 15, one of the more beautiful things about that game story is that it subverts the jRPG typical about defying fate. 01:00:28:28 - 01:01:04:22 Ryan Noctis has to accept his fate. Yeah, right. There's nothing he can do it, but he has to say that this is my fate. And so, that's one thing about the team that actually, kind of resonated with me as I reflected on where I was, like, I like that. I like that he's not able to just. And I do think that power of friendship, by the way, as a side note, is, is, not as bad as some people think it is because I do think the most powerful force in the universe is our relationship with others. 01:01:04:22 - 01:01:30:18 Ryan And I always think that JRPGs are cool and how they abstract that as a force that can overcome any other thing. And in the world. Right? Yeah. it's why, I think, for example, my kids see it because of my player. I'm big fan of, persona three, for example, because I think that game is also, really incredible at depicting, yeah, that exact thing. 01:01:30:20 - 01:01:43:07 Ryan So, yeah, I was kind of like, you know, I don't think that there was a way where they could necessarily revive that character and, and have the same meaning for me personally. 01:01:43:09 - 01:01:44:00 Ryan Well, I think. 01:01:44:00 - 01:02:10:09 Wade That's a really interesting thing because so many people, who came away from remake and, didn't have the most positive, kind of outlook on it. I guess a lot of times they are characterized as just like, you know, you're you're almost you're wishing this was exactly the same as the original. And it's it's like you're just like, you can't let go of the past, right? 01:02:10:09 - 01:02:14:03 Wade You're like the king of the whispers. You know, you're trying to save. 01:02:14:05 - 01:02:15:27 Ryan Yeah. What's right. 01:02:15:29 - 01:02:42:26 Wade But the way that you've said it is a great argument here because you've said, I'm afraid and cautious that they aren't treating death with the seriousness that they did at the beginning like it back in 1997. And I think that's a really different conversation to have. It's not like I'm okay with some changes. My bet listening to you is that you're you're okay with some of the added stuff, like the chapter top side at Jesse's house, right? 01:02:42:26 - 01:02:43:18 Wade Yeah. We're all built. 01:02:43:19 - 01:02:51:13 Ryan Love, love, love that stuff. Right. There's people who are like, it needs to stay pure. And I don't it right. 01:02:51:16 - 01:03:20:05 Wade And so when you're talking about, you know, these themes that were so meaningful and impactful back in the day, how are we subverting these themes? I think that's a really important critique to have. And so what I really want to say is to the listeners, you know, asking these follow up questions of why doesn't it work now like it did back in the day, and really getting into that because it's too easy to simply say, well, this person is a purist, right? 01:03:20:12 - 01:03:30:21 Wade Like we we in that that is so simplistic. And there's always these really great reasons for why something does or doesn't work for us. And so thank you for sharing that. That's that's really me. 01:03:30:23 - 01:03:32:02 Ryan you talked about, of course, before. 01:03:32:02 - 01:03:50:09 Evan How the way that you've enjoyed games has, has changed over time and you have a different appreciation for parts of the story that you did before. And what was amazing about Final Fantasy for you was that you could be the guy who flies through the glass on a motorcycle with a sword, but then you came to realize there's these also these beautiful moments, right? 01:03:50:09 - 01:04:00:24 Evan They kind of dress it up in a way that you feel engaged, and then it impacts you, and you can see things that you want to see in your life through the game. 01:04:00:27 - 01:04:01:15 Ryan at what point. 01:04:01:15 - 01:04:24:20 Evan Do you think that really changed for you? Is there a moment where like like, you know, dancing that you were like, okay, great, like this, is this is starting to make some sense to me. And like, I appreciate this more. Did you have to read some more, gained some more knowledge, like what got you to the point where you were you were not necessarily playing to be Motorcycle Sword guy, but you were playing because it was impacting you. 01:04:24:22 - 01:04:51:25 Ryan I think I gave a great example of of realizing my own development as a person through video game was actually not even through a Final Fantasy game. It was, through Zelda. It was through Majora's Mask. Now, Majora's Mask was a game that when I played as a kid at launch, I detested it. It's I'd not. It's hard. 01:04:51:27 - 01:04:59:17 Ryan And I came off of Ocarina of Time right where that Game Boy is like, you know, at the time. So mind blowing. 01:04:59:20 - 01:05:00:18 Wade Peak. Yeah. 01:05:00:18 - 01:05:38:10 Ryan So, so mind blowing. Right. And so when I, you know, when Majora's Mask came out, it's this weird game. It has this three day cycle. It has a gameplay loop that, you know, nothing else has. And it felt so weird. And I hated it and I didn't really get, you know, again, we talk about like subconsciously picking up on themes and stuff, but I was so frustrated with the gameplay at the time that I don't think I could have really picked up on a lot of the deeper stuff that was going on that was going on behind the story. 01:05:38:12 - 01:06:04:01 Ryan So around the time I was like, I think I was like 17 or 18 as like a senior in high school and, Twilight Princess was about to come out. And so I was like, okay, I want to pick up, I want to pick major as mask back up. Right? Because that was that was the only Zelda game that I felt like I hated that I played and, like, I loved all the other Zelda games and, you know, I like, watch, like, a couple of videos on it at the time and it's like, okay, it's got some interesting stuff in it. 01:06:04:04 - 01:06:26:17 Ryan So I go back and then I realized that, oh my God, there is so much profound subtext in here in this game. You know, just like in, like in the first few scenes. Right, right where, like, you know, the day crew screw up, like, dies and becomes your mask and then, like, the father is, like, looking for his son. 01:06:26:20 - 01:06:27:18 Ryan And, you know, it's not like. 01:06:27:18 - 01:06:28:20 Ryan You like, like. Yeah. 01:06:28:20 - 01:06:34:02 Ryan And then he notes that, like, you look like his son and you're like, literally wearing his is like dead son's face. 01:06:34:09 - 01:06:43:09 Ryan Oh, God. And I'm like, okay. Yeah, there it is. Oh, you know, as a kid, you don't, you know, there's. 01:06:43:11 - 01:06:45:13 Ryan That just goes over your head, right? 01:06:45:16 - 01:06:45:29 Ryan Yeah. 01:06:46:03 - 01:06:49:27 Ryan And then you play it as an adult and you're like, oh, okay. 01:06:49:29 - 01:06:53:16 Ryan Yeah. That's the worst. This is. 01:06:53:16 - 01:07:10:18 Ryan This is a children's game. Okay. Let's go. So and Majora's Mask, like even that opening scene, it really only gets darker from there. Right. Because you have I mean, first of all, the name of the world is termina. Like, the name of the world. Like the land that you're in is called death. 01:07:10:21 - 01:07:11:20 Wade Yeah. 01:07:11:22 - 01:07:16:00 Ryan Right. So and then you have the moon, the impending death. 01:07:16:03 - 01:07:16:21 Wade With an angry. 01:07:16:26 - 01:07:19:22 Ryan Face. It's like, really? Right. 01:07:19:24 - 01:07:50:29 Ryan Right. And so, wow. It's like, okay. And so that I think Majora's Mask was the experience where actually I started looking deeper at games because I realized, oh, there was this game that I thought was just a bad Zelda or a stupid game. And, I go back to it and actually, it's it's one of the most profound experiences I've ever had with a piece of media. 01:07:51:01 - 01:08:10:16 Wade Going back to Final Fantasy seven, do you think that there is an opportunity by the end of part three of the remake, that people will go back and look at remake and say, this is one of the most brilliant and beautiful pieces of media that I've ever experienced. Is that a possibility or we way off tracks there? 01:08:10:18 - 01:08:25:29 Ryan I think it's I think there's a strong possibility of it. Right. it's going to be really interesting, though, because I think they have a lot to and I hate to kind of say this with, you know, a piece of art, but justify. 01:08:27:06 - 01:08:53:22 Ryan Because you do have to think on why they have decided to, to take things this route. it's a really interesting route to, to go down. Right. There's a lot of conjecture on what Final Fantasy seven remake even is, right? Like, is this a sequel? Is this, you know, like the Evangelion Rebuilds? where it's like a meta sequel. 01:08:53:22 - 01:09:17:21 Ryan Is it just a remake or they've added like a time element? but I think that, regardless of all of that, all the specifics, Final Fantasy seven remake is a remake with meta awareness that it is a remake. That is what they're attempting to do. Like, you can, all the other stuff is just, you know, it's just toppings for like, what they're actually trying to do at the highest level. 01:09:17:21 - 01:09:25:11 Ryan And at the highest level is if they're basically saying that this is a remake of a story that knows that it's a remake of a story. 01:09:25:14 - 01:09:51:14 Wade So with rebirth, then how was that? how did that kind of subvert, reinforce whatever your experience of remake, did it kind of cancel it and solidify some of those, inklings that you had at the end of remake, or did it? What did that do? Because rebirth does expand on a lot of these themes. But what was your take and interpretation of some of this stuff? 01:09:51:17 - 01:10:10:29 Ryan I think what surprised me the most about rebirth was how shockingly faithful it was, because my, my kind of like, the way I walked away from remake was, is that I was like, okay, well, then the next game just needs to go straight into Final Fantasy seven two, right? Because it seems like that's what they what the what they want to do. 01:10:11:02 - 01:10:29:16 Ryan And I was shocked how much they didn't actually do that at all. Right. They, they really just told, a very similar story with a lot greater detail in more moments to it than I was expecting at least until you get to the tail end. 01:10:29:19 - 01:10:30:10 Ryan Yeah. 01:10:30:12 - 01:10:35:13 Ryan Of the game where things do kind of go in a different direction, right? 01:10:35:13 - 01:11:03:04 Wade When this is what you said in your review. Right? Which was absolutely amazing. And we're going to link it in the, comments, because if you haven't seen, Ryan's review of rebirth in his just assessment, immediately after he had played it like it is it is perfect. Sometimes I go back to it. And so but one of the things that you say is rebirth is best when it's retelling the original stuff, because it does it with all of the flourish, the technology and the added lore that you would want. 01:11:03:07 - 01:11:10:18 Wade And it stumbles a bit when it gets to some of this, this what you call, I think the remake stuff. 01:11:10:24 - 01:11:20:17 Ryan Yeah. Oh yeah, I remember my exact wording I believe was it's at its best when it's a remake of Final Fantasy seven and at its worst when its Final Fantasy seven remake. 01:11:20:17 - 01:11:25:19 Ryan That was it. Yeah. Oh well said. So yeah, yeah. 01:11:25:22 - 01:11:47:22 Wade So we, we really talk about some of the things that that worked for people, what didn't work and especially some of these deviations like the big scene with Aerith at the end as you finished up rebirth, where were you like, what was this? Was this like, oh, that was amazing. Was this I'm confused. Like I was at the end of remake. 01:11:47:22 - 01:11:52:07 Wade What? Where were you, though? 01:11:52:09 - 01:12:21:20 Ryan You know, funny enough, the ending of Of Rebirth didn't have the same visceral reaction for me as the ending of remake. And I think that part of that is it's just four years in between the two of just acceptance of this is what this is. And so what I think is actually kind of funny is that I found that other people seemed to have a more visceral reaction to it, and who are more accepting of remakes ending to. 01:12:21:22 - 01:12:49:20 Ryan They were a lot of them were kind of the ones who were like, you know what? whereas me, I kind of already gone through all the stages of grief with it and kind of accepted that this was the thing. So it's funny. So I feel like I ended up in a more open minded place than what a lot of other people did who were kind of in denial about what they were wanting to do. 01:12:49:23 - 01:13:09:19 Ryan with this project. So, I mean, when I, when I saw the ending, I mean, it was kind of just on par with, like, what I was expecting. for me, it was like almost verbatim, like some of the stuff I even said. Like, I even, like, predicted spot on that. Like no one else was even talking about. 01:13:09:19 - 01:13:28:08 Ryan Really. Like I was talking about like I was like, no, Zach and In Cloud are definitely fighting Seifer off together. Like, I mean, like, there is like there is no other way around. And people are like, oh no, they're not going to be on screen, interact with each other. I'm like, no, no, no. They have they have to fight together because that's the only escalation of the story. 01:13:28:08 - 01:13:49:17 Ryan Right. And so right now I'm, I'm also predicting that not only are they going to fight together again in the third part, but I feel like the only escalation they can do from both rebirth and the original game would be to have cloud do the omni slash. But it's not just cloud, it's also Zach doing that dual omni slash against Sephiroth. 01:13:49:17 - 01:13:50:07 Ryan And 01:13:50:10 - 01:13:59:08 Ryan And my I guess my, my controversial part about it is that I'm also predicting that the lies that the Buster saw, it will be like a live stream buster. So oh. 01:13:59:08 - 01:14:00:01 Ryan My gosh. 01:14:00:03 - 01:14:07:00 Ryan Start with the light. Because that's the only way to escalate the speculate, the the spectacle from where it was in the previous games. Right. 01:14:07:03 - 01:14:11:17 Wade Especially because at the end of remake, several of the flex, the Omni slash. 01:14:11:20 - 01:14:12:12 Ryan Right, right. 01:14:12:14 - 01:14:18:24 Wade At the end. So to the way to like subvert that is you've got it coming from both ends and the live stream. I think that's. 01:14:18:25 - 01:14:19:06 Ryan Right. 01:14:19:07 - 01:14:19:25 Wade Amazing. 01:14:19:29 - 01:14:24:10 Evan I think the only way to escalate is to make it a live stream. Nailed that. And that. 01:14:24:11 - 01:14:28:22 Ryan The last nail that I know the only way to. 01:14:28:22 - 01:14:34:09 Evan Save the world is tease and make everyone finish the game with the nail that. 01:14:34:12 - 01:14:37:23 Ryan I love it, I love it, I love it. We don't need materia here. 01:14:37:26 - 01:14:40:20 Ryan Yeah. Absolutely not. Yeah. 01:14:40:23 - 01:15:02:03 Wade When it comes to rebirth, you've had some time to to sit with it, right? 6 or 7 months or so at this point, how is your appreciation for it? grown or lessened? and what themes do you continue to think about as you think about rebirth in light of the entire trilogy? 01:15:03:12 - 01:15:04:25 Ryan So far, you know. 01:15:04:27 - 01:15:21:21 Ryan Despite the fact that I do have, couple of criticisms of some narrative stuff, I, I think it's still probably the best Final Fantasy game that they've made just as a game. it's the best, probably for game. it's. 01:15:21:21 - 01:15:24:07 Ryan Just that's a really that's a huge. 01:15:24:07 - 01:15:28:08 Wade Phrase there that you just said and like, yeah, you know, hate mail and all. 01:15:28:08 - 01:15:32:23 Ryan That kind of stuff. It's like, yeah, you're not. What about none? What about six? 01:15:32:25 - 01:15:40:23 Wade What is it about rebirth that encapsulates what it means to be a Final Fantasy, and especially one that that hits like you say it does? 01:15:40:25 - 01:16:10:05 Ryan I think that, like, you know, a Final Fantasy really, at its core, is about going on a journey with a great cast of characters, saving the world, of course. But, you know, also to, it's about, and this is a very nerdy response, but, I feel like it's about, like a lot of gameplay things like great character progression systems, like, I actually have a Final Fantasy had one specific gameplay identity. 01:16:10:07 - 01:16:34:14 Ryan I would say that character progression systems is is the Final Fantasy gameplay like more than more than actual combat? Even? And, I feel like it has that, you know, in the form of materia and folios and like all the other stuff you can experiment with, it's got the combat. It has, some of the auxiliary things that we've come to associate with Final Fantasy, like mini games. 01:16:34:16 - 01:17:04:10 Ryan again, it also has like a lot of core tenets of like, what Final Fantasy should be, such as a giant world map, which has gone away in recent years. And, the world map is finally what a Final Fantasy world map should look like in HD. It is. It is a one for one proper remake of a Final Fantasy world map to scale, which I mean, and people have been asking for that. 01:17:04:13 - 01:17:36:20 Ryan Yeah, for decades or two decades, almost since like after ten. Right. and they brought that back. So they, they fulfilled, I think, what the core of Final Fantasy is, in so many different angles. And then on top of that, too, I think that the volume of content in this game and the quality of that volume of content is so great, it's so overwhelming, that, no other FPS game really, even, comes close to providing all that. 01:17:36:22 - 01:17:39:23 Wade A lot of discussion about mini games in this. 01:17:39:23 - 01:17:41:08 Ryan One. Yeah, people love them. 01:17:41:08 - 01:17:47:26 Wade Some people don't like. Where do you sit on this? Was this fluff padding or is it true to the Final Fantasy legacy? 01:17:47:29 - 01:18:16:22 Ryan I think it's true to the legacy of of seven. I do understand where people are coming from with the two mini mini games, like for example, a game that I felt like had too many mini games or too many gimmick fights with Kingdom Hearts three. and that that was terrible for me. but, at the same time though too, I feel like most of them are not mandatory to enjoy the main story of Final Fantasy seven, and most of the good ones are the ones that are, the mandatory ones. 01:18:16:22 - 01:18:34:09 Ryan Right. and also, I'm not a platinum trophy guy. That's another thing that distinguishes me, maybe from the rest is that, I feel like whenever I go and platinum a game, it creates a toxic relationship between me and the game. 01:18:34:12 - 01:18:34:26 Ryan what. 01:18:34:26 - 01:18:38:04 Wade Level of self-regulation do you have? I mean, that. 01:18:38:04 - 01:18:40:12 Ryan Is like you just said that. 01:18:40:12 - 01:18:42:18 Wade People are like. But I have to. Yeah. 01:18:42:18 - 01:18:43:09 Ryan So. Right. 01:18:43:12 - 01:18:48:02 Wade Are you not compelled to do that even though you enjoy a game? Right. 01:18:48:04 - 01:19:08:04 Ryan Every time I try to platinum a game, it'd be a favorite game of all time. I love it. At some point when I have to do something, some aspect of the game that I just simply do not find fun. And I think almost every game has like, you know, a scale of content that is really good to really bad. 01:19:08:06 - 01:19:37:14 Ryan And when I'm sitting through the really bad content of a game, usually that's very optional that I am just not enjoying at all. I'm just thinking the whole time, why am I wasting my limited gaming time doing this? So I have a bragging right? Yeah. And so the opportunity cost of getting a platinum trophy versus just moving on to a new game never seems to like it in the platinum. 01:19:37:14 - 01:19:41:21 Ryan Never seems to weigh heavier to me than just playing a new game. Yeah. So. 01:19:41:21 - 01:19:45:26 Wade Oh man, that's great. That's great advice. And I hope that's freeing for our listeners. 01:19:45:26 - 01:19:52:06 Ryan Yeah, right. Yeah. Somebody wants what's the game. Yeah, yeah. Just stop, stop. Like you don't have to. 01:19:52:11 - 01:19:53:23 Wade Do something else in the game is. 01:19:53:23 - 01:19:54:18 Ryan Big rebirth. 01:19:54:18 - 01:19:58:21 Wade Especially. There's other things you can do that are going to be more fun. And let's go for it. 01:19:58:24 - 01:20:00:08 Ryan You're right. 01:20:00:10 - 01:20:16:23 Ryan Right. And I appreciate games that big two that have that much content. Because as I go back and replay them, I can choose to do different content that I didn't do before. which gives me like years of kind of enjoyment of that game, but trying to like do all of that in one playthrough. I usually just, I usually just hate myself in. 01:20:16:23 - 01:20:18:05 Ryan I hate the game too. 01:20:18:08 - 01:20:20:03 Ryan Well, there was a there. 01:20:20:10 - 01:20:34:18 Evan Was some symbolism. I know that we wanted to get to, and some of the meaning and some of your interpretation on why they made some of the decisions that told the story, that they way that they did. And as we kind of continue on in this section, wait, I wonder where you want to start with that. 01:20:34:20 - 01:20:59:05 Wade Yeah. So we have we've really kind of talked about a lot of the the high points of the game and some of the questions and stuff I'd really love. Part of this series is making sense of Final Fantasy seven rebirth, and I would love to know some of the themes, some of the story beats, all that stuff that have helped you make sense of what's going on in the trilogy, rebirth specifically, and has helped you grow an appreciation. 01:20:59:07 - 01:21:11:03 Wade kind of going back to that, that idea of playing games for these deeper meanings that you may not see as a kid. How might you help us think about this game? in that way? 01:21:11:05 - 01:21:36:06 Ryan yeah. So, one of the things that, you know, we were talking about before stream, that I've really come to realize with like Final Fantasy seven in particular was, and this is like, how should I say this? I kind of like when I was in, like, my early 20s, I would read, like, a lot of, like, Daoist philosophy. 01:21:36:10 - 01:22:05:22 Ryan I just found it, like, really interesting. Right. and, you know, there's always talk in like, a lot of eastern philosophy about the ego and kind of the separation of self, from the greater whole. Right. And, you know, kind of the thing about man is that man has both the privilege and burden of being aware that we're both an individual and part of the universe at the same time. 01:22:05:22 - 01:22:35:07 Ryan Right? So we're both part of the whole and separate from it temporarily at the same time. Right. And, and through that, this sense of me, the ego, kind of rises up. And I've always found Final Fantasy seven to kind of make some particularly interesting statements about that really subtly. and in two ways that it really jumps out of me at one way. 01:22:35:07 - 01:22:56:05 Ryan We have Indra, right, which is man's, corporate way of kind of like assuming the role of God. Right. The ultimate stage of ego is when the man kind of sees his own form, basically, as, as, you know, the, the ultimate thing ruling over the universe. And I've always. 01:22:56:07 - 01:23:08:06 Wade Yeah, I'm out for a second because what you just said was so, so good. Kind of the ultimate form of ego is when man realizes his form as that God or that divine, the highest. 01:23:08:09 - 01:23:08:23 Ryan Sort of peace. 01:23:08:23 - 01:23:21:13 Wade That's huge. Right? Yeah. And you do see this with Shinra and certainly with certain characters. But I wanted to make sure that our listeners heard that the, the highest form of ego is that I think that's really compelling. Thank you. 01:23:21:13 - 01:23:22:20 Ryan For that. All right. Well. 01:23:22:23 - 01:23:24:27 Ryan I want to make sure. No, no. Yeah yeah. 01:23:24:27 - 01:23:50:21 Ryan Yeah yeah. No, because I would love for you to to add even more context to this. and then I think that we see that element of God again, we see it in Shinra and we see it in Suffereth. Right. And with Shinra in particular, when you look at Shinra logo, one of the things that the developers specifically chose to do is that with the spelling of Shinra and in the logo, you'll actually see the kanji for God, right? 01:23:50:23 - 01:23:58:08 Ryan And so they specifically chose to use that character for God, to spell Shinra. 01:23:58:11 - 01:24:04:15 Evan Let's talk about what kanji are just for those who aren't familiar in everything. go ahead. 01:24:04:17 - 01:24:32:03 Ryan Oh. yeah. So, Japanese loans, around 2000 Chinese characters from Chinese. sometimes it uses more than that, but there's around 2000 common ones. And, the same kanji that you would use for kami, which is God is the first character that is used to spell, Shinra in Japanese. 01:24:32:05 - 01:24:40:05 Wade Okay. Wow. Wow. so this is something that I did not know. this is incredibly compelling. 01:24:40:07 - 01:24:41:08 Ryan No, you. 01:24:41:08 - 01:24:49:13 Wade Kind of, Did you discover this? Like, how did you come to this? Somebody, to you, like, what was this? 01:24:49:15 - 01:24:55:09 Ryan I, I study Japanese casually, and then. Oh, I got so. Yeah, I got it. 01:24:55:11 - 01:24:56:03 Ryan Okay. 01:24:56:05 - 01:25:19:06 Ryan Yeah, I yeah, I, I say casually, but I've really been at it for three years, and, I, it's actually a lot more than casually, but yeah, that's awesome. I, what made you want to, like. Oh, man. So I just, I just always wanted to do it because I just love Japanese games, and I just always, I always feel like learning a second language is something that that, like, we should all do. 01:25:19:06 - 01:25:42:26 Ryan Yeah. I mean, knowing two languages is also, by the way, associated with so many positive mental health outcomes, including including delaying the onset of dementia by like 5 to 10 years in some studies. People who know how bilingual are more. Yeah. So if you don't study a second language, you should study a second language because like the benefits that it has on your brain are like profoundly deep. 01:25:42:28 - 01:25:43:06 Ryan this. 01:25:43:06 - 01:25:45:21 Evan Would be a great spot. Duolingo for an ad spot. 01:25:45:24 - 01:25:50:15 Ryan Yeah. It is. Yes. Come on. Yes, they need to. 01:25:50:15 - 01:26:15:02 Ryan They need to reach out to But yeah. So at least so a lot. So I was like, okay, that's like a thing I'll do for sure just because I want to know Japanese. And so. Yeah. Cool. and then you also have set for us a set, to godhood as well. And the commonality of, of Shinra and Sephiroth is seeing themselves different, separate from the greater whole, right? 01:26:15:04 - 01:26:35:05 Ryan Yeah. And then what's interesting about that, too, is that both of these entities that see themselves as different from the greater whole, they see themselves as better superior, but then they're also using that greater whole to basically be the thing that they are in the same sense, too. Right? Like Shinra needs the live stream, they still need the greater whole. 01:26:35:05 - 01:26:49:15 Ryan They still need, what one might actually describe as like the true God, especially in the context of Final Fantasy seven, as you know, the thing that's actually strengthening them to even have the ego in the first place. Right? 01:26:49:16 - 01:27:05:26 Wade This is such a rich conversation. because when you're talking about this idea of, of ego and God and those that would be gods, I mean, you know, you've got, the the birth of a god is one of the. 01:27:05:26 - 01:27:06:17 Ryan Central. 01:27:06:21 - 01:27:37:04 Wade Final boss fights for Sephiroth in the original game, you know, and you've got Shinra trying to attain this level. Well, what I keep thinking about is an ego that is going to affect the collective whole is all about control, right? And everyone in this game, to some degree wants to have some level of control because they feel like they're out of control in the original game, in and remake, Barrett says, there ain't no getting off this train we're on and trains are on tracks. 01:27:37:04 - 01:28:05:22 Wade They can't decide where to go and stuff. And then as part of that kind of meta, self-aware narrative, he's got this con, conversation about the, the whispers, right? How they are in control of the individual life. And so you enter Shinra, you enter Sephiroth, who want to either, utilize or subvert the control of the live stream of Mako for their own purposes. 01:28:05:24 - 01:28:32:11 Wade And therefore they are able to enact control on the entire world as that, sort of thing. Meanwhile, the primary party is trying to, mitigate that, that level of outside control so that each person can have their own agency and control in their own lives. I think that's a really interesting dichotomy there. how do you make sense of that? 01:28:32:11 - 01:28:49:04 Wade Like, is this is this what you're kind of getting at between this idea of, people trying to attain godhood to some degree? Talk to me a little bit about the relationship between control and why does Sephiroth want it? Shinra and even the characters in the game. 01:28:49:06 - 01:29:29:12 Ryan Right. I think that there is this idea of things always being better. This sort of like infinite, infinite growth. Infinite, improvement of situations and things being better, and then also to with wanting that control, we know who we are. We have identity that is derived, from our sense of control. Right. And so because of that, identity ends up playing, a big role. 01:29:29:12 - 01:30:03:24 Ryan And, you know, as I mentioned, man has like a privilege and a burden to be aware that we are both individuals, but also part of the universe, too. Right. And so I think it is great that they decide to kind of center this narrative around cloud, sort of not quite really knowing who exactly he is. Right. And so he has to, you know, for him almost, you know, having that sort of like, you know, identity that he's able to assume. 01:30:03:27 - 01:30:04:11 Wade Oh, my God. 01:30:04:11 - 01:30:11:03 Ryan Allows him to sort of control the situation. Right. To, to have like that role, you know, you know. 01:30:11:05 - 01:30:35:24 Wade You are so full of these little nuggets of wisdom here. Humanity has the privilege and the burden, the privilege and the burden of knowing oneself as well as knowing that they are part of this greater whole. And I love that. Got this kind of both sides of this coin, you know, you can't just say that you're part of the whole without the ego, and yet you can't just be yourself isolated. 01:30:35:24 - 01:30:57:20 Wade You know, we spoke with Maya Roxas recently in one of these interviews, and he said, we are wired for connection, you know, and it's the same idea that if you don't know yourself, can you really be in connection with others? And, this whole collective whole sort of idea, how do you contribute to that without losing yourself in it? 01:30:57:20 - 01:31:07:19 Wade Which, oddly enough, is one of the the issues of Sephiroth, right? He does want to disperse into the live stream, so he's resisting that. 01:31:07:22 - 01:31:07:28 Ryan Right. 01:31:07:29 - 01:31:09:21 Wade Kind of passion into it. 01:31:09:21 - 01:31:10:25 Ryan I think it's. 01:31:10:27 - 01:31:12:27 Wade A fascinating resistance. 01:31:12:29 - 01:31:43:28 Ryan Right. And what happens when someone becomes part of the live stream? Right, too. Right is the ego. The ego dissipates. And, in the novels, too, they talk about how Sephiroth by holding onto his, by holding on to basically hatred, by holding onto his memories of cloud. Sephiroth is able to know who he is. And so, you know, maybe actually, really, to answer your earlier question too, is, you know, basically to to have that identity is is also what we need to have our ego to have our sense of self to. 01:31:44:01 - 01:32:15:04 Ryan And so Sephiroth is able to maintain his ego by knowing these are the people I hate. This is what I don't like, and he's able to maintain self, within a live stream. And and it almost kind of describes that as like a poison, right? Like several others, like poisoning, kind of the greater whole by holding on the self within the, you know, the mask, like the greater whole, the spiritual energy of of everyone. 01:32:15:07 - 01:32:16:23 Wade That's such a great point. 01:32:16:25 - 01:32:17:17 Ryan Because it really. 01:32:17:17 - 01:32:48:01 Wade Is like a virus poison that is seeping into the entire planet. somebody in the comments of one of these, conversations or playthroughs or something on YouTube mentioned the idea that cloud Cloud has this kind of, sickness in his own psyche. Right. And what's interesting about the remake trilogy is that that same sort of, sickness of self has infected the planet to some degree in, in this. 01:32:48:03 - 01:33:09:18 Wade And so it's almost like a preservation of the planet itself in lieu of, say, Sephiroth self or any other, you know, comer that might try to survive it. I think it's a you've brought up a really, really interesting point. So what do you do with that? You know, this this game about these incredible themes of ego and collective whole? 01:33:09:18 - 01:33:18:02 Wade How do you assimilate that into a deeper meaning that is meaningful for you beyond like, oh, that was a cool thing, and then move on with your life, right? 01:33:18:04 - 01:33:45:13 Ryan Right. You know it. It's interesting because I think for Shinra, for example, the inability to kind of see the greater whole, makes them keep going. We have to keep pumping more Mako. We have to keep, you know, providing more value for the shareholders. Yeah. You know, we have to keep doing these things because if we don't, you know, we lose control. 01:33:45:13 - 01:34:12:26 Ryan But, you know, at any point, Shinra could stop, like, they they don't they don't have to actually keep going. They already own the whole world. And then even still, they want to keep going, right? Because that's that's sort of what the unchecked ego is. The unchecked ego is the thing that has to keep feeding on other things, to keep amassing like its own identity, so that it can continue to feel important. 01:34:12:28 - 01:34:15:05 Wade Purpose. How do you see character? 01:34:15:05 - 01:34:15:29 Ryan Yes. 01:34:16:01 - 01:34:19:18 Wade Check their ego in this game. 01:34:19:21 - 01:34:22:25 Ryan I think clouds is probably the most obvious, right? 01:34:22:27 - 01:34:24:01 Wade Okay. 01:34:24:03 - 01:35:04:21 Ryan you know, after the live stream sequence and he has to, like, put himself back together and, you know, really come to terms with who he is, I think for other characters, too. that, I who's a Barret is also probably like a really phenomenal example to where there is just I think there's a lot of moments, you know, toward the end of the game, especially toward the end of like the OG, where Barret kind of reflects on, you know, everything they did as avalanche and I think to like maybe in like remake for example, there's a lot of good scenes where Barret is kind of reflecting on, you know, the number of 01:35:04:21 - 01:35:48:13 Ryan lives that all of this is cost. You know, that, that, that even he like his identity as, you know, as avalanche, as this freedom fighter has had such a toll on him and everyone that he's loved. And so, you know, even even him where he's like, you know, kind of maybe representing the ego coming up again to defeat the ego so that the ego can have yet another purpose, which is like, kind of like another thing that I, you know, I think a lot of eastern philosophers will kind of speak on is, is that like, you know, you have to beware, you know, the ego kind of like defeating the ego so 01:35:48:13 - 01:35:51:27 Ryan that you can have the new ego of the ego that defeated the ego. Right? 01:35:51:28 - 01:35:53:27 Ryan Essentially, you know, is everybody. 01:35:53:29 - 01:35:55:09 Wade Following that, like. 01:35:55:12 - 01:35:56:13 Ryan Yeah. 01:35:56:15 - 01:36:16:22 Wade But you know, you're exactly right. I mean, there can be almost too much attention to the ego instead of the, the hole and stuff. But then you've always got to be careful of continually checking that it's not a one and done sort of thing, but it's almost like a new way of of existing, of thinking, of checking yourself, because then. 01:36:16:23 - 01:36:18:20 Ryan You become self righteous. 01:36:18:22 - 01:36:22:16 Wade Right? Right. Which is a massive, 01:36:22:18 - 01:36:24:28 Ryan Massively problem. Yeah. What about characters. 01:36:24:28 - 01:36:36:28 Evan Like, Tifa and Aerith? Yuffie, Jessie, some of the female characters. How do you think the game portrays their experience with ego and how it interacts with the world and impacts this? 01:36:36:28 - 01:36:39:10 Ryan Other characters? 01:36:39:12 - 01:36:53:26 Ryan Oh man, that's a good question. I don't know if I have a great answer for it. Aerith in particular would be really interesting. I'd be really interested to you kind of dive into how that plays a role for, because I feel like there is definitely something there. 01:36:53:27 - 01:36:56:05 Evan Yeah, maybe. Maybe we can just I'll talk about it a little. 01:36:56:07 - 01:37:06:14 Ryan You know what? Actually, actually, I would say that rebirth maybe does have something kind of set up with that. And I think it comes with this scene with getting to talk. 01:37:06:17 - 01:37:07:12 Ryan Okay. 01:37:07:15 - 01:37:08:20 Ryan You know what I'm talking about. 01:37:08:20 - 01:37:10:01 Ryan Yeah. Where? 01:37:10:04 - 01:37:33:21 Wade Cosmo Canyon, after red trial. you know, you you get this kind of moment where he realizes his father's, legacy, but then he is, that moment is interrupted almost by, this representative from the guy, who is a former civilization that, 01:37:34:15 - 01:37:49:26 Wade Is extinct, but also not extinct. They're in this almost limbo state. And Geena Talk is their representative that's come to speak to cloud Red 13 Annunaki and the rest of the the characters. So with that, yeah. Please talk about that. 01:37:49:28 - 01:38:20:26 Ryan Right. So in the original game, the Cetera are kind of portrayed as like very pure, right? Like, in a very trope way. And then when we learn from getting the talk, then rebirth, the etc. are actually maybe not so pure. Maybe they, maybe they had some perhaps discriminatory feelings toward the game. Right. And so I do think that Aerith does have to kind of come to terms with that. 01:38:21:03 - 01:38:33:19 Ryan You know, maybe the Cetera have also committed their own sins in their own way to where, you know, they also, were not as tolerant of the game as they they could have been. 01:38:33:21 - 01:38:52:21 Wade Yeah. She does not allow, or she's constantly calling into question when people are trying to lump her into a group like Barrett talks about, people that are stupid. And following Shinra falling for Shinra is lies. And she's like, hey, is that me? Or are you talking about me? And he's like, no, no, no, I didn't mean that. 01:38:52:21 - 01:38:53:10 Wade Like even. 01:38:53:12 - 01:38:54:01 Ryan Yeah. 01:38:54:03 - 01:39:12:11 Wade And then here, she says, or Gina talks makes a statement about they're an intolerant people. And again, she raised her hand. She's like, am I intolerant? Is that is that me? And I love that. Like, there is this preservation of, hey, I am part of this collective whole. But I also have my own story to tell. 01:39:12:11 - 01:39:26:02 Wade There's some. Yeah. rinse wresting control again. By the end of the game, Aerith story has continued. It's culminated, and all this stuff. we've got to talk about the end a little bit here because. 01:39:26:02 - 01:39:27:09 Ryan Yeah. 01:39:27:11 - 01:39:51:05 Wade you know, so much of the game is pretty much the exact same, more or less than the original, or to the original, but the very final bit, kind of expands in a lot of ways. There's a question of what's going on with Aerith. what will continue to happen, maybe process that with us a little bit. 01:39:51:05 - 01:40:03:26 Wade What was your take about what happened in the ending, and especially regarding, Aerith ego, the collective whole of humanity in the live stream? I would love to hear your take on the ending. 01:40:03:28 - 01:40:09:00 Ryan Okay. yeah. Wow. The ending is a lot. 01:40:09:02 - 01:40:09:24 Ryan the ending. 01:40:09:24 - 01:40:22:01 Ryan Is a lot. so in terms of, like, the actual fate of Aerith, if I'm to give my take on that, she is dead in this game. 01:40:22:04 - 01:40:22:11 Wade Okay. 01:40:22:17 - 01:40:52:18 Ryan And, part of the reason that I'll say that she's dead is pretty much just the way the rebirth plays out, right? Like, I mean, rebirth plays out in a fairly faithful manner up until the final, third or so of the game. Maybe even less than that, honestly. really, in that last quarter, maybe, and so, you know, under the assumption that the third part is going to do something similar, I don't think that you can have a living Aerith in any capacity and do that. 01:40:52:20 - 01:41:29:24 Ryan But, the idea for some, I guess, is that she could potentially be alive in another world. The dream, whatever terminology that, that you want to use for, whatever is, is going on there. I feel like the the set up for that scene, though, is, is that ultimately this is about cloud finally letting go of Aerith, finally, finally having that scene where he accepts her death in a in a. 01:41:30:29 - 01:41:52:15 Ryan In a with a real sense of finality to it. Right. because we don't we don't really even get that. I think in, in the OG because the last place that threat leaves off is this scene in the ending, cloud has, like, Tifa in his arm, and he's like, he's thinking about the live stream, and he's like, I could see her there, you know? 01:41:52:17 - 01:42:12:11 Ryan and then even in Advent Children, even children kind of has, like, I guess, the real resolution to, his, his sense of basically traumatic guilt about Zack and Aerith and, and when they walk out of the church and and that, but I think that this is wanting to incorporate that within the main story. 01:42:12:13 - 01:42:14:19 Ryan I think that that's a really. 01:42:14:21 - 01:42:32:10 Wade Really good point that you're making there. we will get this in the comments. I just want to say it very quickly. There's some question about the translation in the original game on that one scene where cloud is holding era or excuse me, cloud is holding Tifa and says, I think we can see her there or or we can meet her there. 01:42:32:10 - 01:42:53:04 Wade And then there's a translation question of in the Japanese, I think I don't again. Yeah, but it's a, we can meet or see them there. And so this the only reason I say it is because there is a question of is he thinking just of Aerith, or is he thinking of Aerith, his mom? Right. All of these others. 01:42:53:04 - 01:42:55:16 Wade And so but there is this interesting thing. 01:42:55:16 - 01:42:56:29 Ryan I think both of those are really good. 01:42:56:29 - 01:42:59:20 Wade Yeah, right. I can go either way on that. 01:42:59:22 - 01:43:00:02 Ryan yeah. 01:43:00:02 - 01:43:25:22 Wade But it is interesting if they are saying, as they chose in the original English in 1997 to see her there, is this a moment of finality for for him accepting Aerith death. And I think that that is I think you're right. Part three is going to be about acceptance. right. In fact, the devs have thrown out some key words saying rebirth was about bonds. 01:43:25:24 - 01:43:45:18 Wade I kind of think that part three is going to be about acceptance. yeah. And, you know, to your point about Final Fantasy 15, I, I would not doubt it if in part three we've got all of these options in Illusions of Options of worlds, and they accept the one that they're actually in where Aerith. 01:43:45:21 - 01:43:46:12 Ryan Right, was. 01:43:46:13 - 01:43:50:14 Wade Zack dies. And what a subversion of the jRPG trope. 01:43:50:16 - 01:43:51:18 Ryan At that rate. 01:43:51:20 - 01:44:00:03 Wade Shall we defy fate and destiny? Or is this the best course for not for the ego, but for the collective whole? Boy, that'd be a really right. 01:44:00:04 - 01:44:26:03 Ryan Yeah, I do think that'd be really interesting. Yeah. and especially to, you know, there is that scene at the end of remake, where Aerith essentially says, you know, if we change, destiny will be changing ourselves because, you know, we are basically, you know, the sum of our experiences by changing the things that we are destined to experience, we are fundamentally altering who we are. 01:44:26:03 - 01:44:44:06 Ryan You know, at the very beginning of this talk and you asked me, you know, about like, you know, my story. I dropped out of college and my senior year, I was this close to having an entirely different life trajectory. And it all happened on a whim. 01:44:44:09 - 01:44:45:20 Wade This is exactly. 01:44:45:22 - 01:44:47:04 Ryan Like the reason that we ask these. 01:44:47:04 - 01:45:06:15 Wade Questions, right? Because like, we we see people as they are in this moment. But if you take even one thing away from their past, you're a different version of yourself here. And this is the question of of rebirth and remakes, for that matter, what can be unmade in the past in order to make a different present reality. 01:45:06:15 - 01:45:31:29 Wade That's the question of Sephiroth versus Aerith, perhaps. Who's saying, no, no, no, we can't change the past. Instead, we can change the future. It's unwritten. And starting now, we can do that. I think that's the incredible message of this game. When you think about the message of rebirth, to, the gaming space, to personal gamers that are kind of living their life. 01:45:32:03 - 01:45:56:03 Wade What what, themes of inspiration or message of, always talking about classes, regarding mythology and religious studies and all that stuff. Truth is greater than fact, right? And so a myth is something that may or may not have ever happened. at one point in time. But in some ways, it happens every day, all the time. 01:45:56:05 - 01:46:10:06 Wade And that leads us to what I would call truth beyond fact. What do you think are the kernels or nuggets of truth about the human experience, about the world that you take personally from this remake trilogy? 01:46:10:08 - 01:46:40:01 Ryan I think one of the things that they're exploring that I find incredibly fascinating, or at least this is how I read that they're exploring it, right when we talk about identity and how our experiences, in the way that FF7 would definitely refer to them, would be memories in particular. We talk about those memories, right? and how much they define us and how much they define who we are in the present. 01:46:40:04 - 01:47:23:22 Ryan I think that one of the interesting things they're exploring with these worlds is that they're kind of showing you all the different expressions of you, right? All these different, identities that you could have. And then from seeing that, like if you could see, you know, the multiverse of yourself, you know, if I could see, you know, the branch where I went to college and I finished and that happened, if I could see the other branch where, I became the YouTuber that I am now, then I see the other branch where, when I bought that electric guitar I mentioned, I actually became like a really good guitarist and then I it man, I 01:47:23:22 - 01:47:39:08 Ryan would then have to question in a really profound way, who am I? Which one of these realities is actually me? And in a weird way, all of those realities are me. 01:47:39:10 - 01:47:40:19 Ryan Sure. 01:47:40:22 - 01:48:07:07 Wade All of these realities are you. Yes. And boy, that's such a great message that we're taking from remnant, right? Because there's different versions of cloud. There's various versions of Aerith. even though she has this kind of ability to navigate and traverse all that stuff. I have lots of explanation on that from other channels, I'm sure, but it is so interesting to consider. 01:48:07:09 - 01:48:14:22 Wade What could life have been like if I had changed that fork in the road? And for people that are, you know, approaching middle age and all that. 01:48:14:22 - 01:48:15:24 Ryan Kind of stuff? 01:48:15:24 - 01:48:41:05 Wade Yeah, these are questions we ask, right? And in this game, I hope personally that we lean into that level of acceptance of like, yeah, I wouldn't have it any other way. and, you know, I mean, there there are days when I may, you know, vary in that conviction, but I think that the message here is like, it's it's going to be good and I'm going to make it turn out good. 01:48:41:07 - 01:48:49:27 Wade just about every, Right, I don't know. That's good. Did you imagine that we would go to the places that we did today in this conversation? 01:48:49:29 - 01:48:51:12 Ryan Because I did not I've met. 01:48:51:15 - 01:48:57:25 Ryan Yeah. No, this this was this was great. But I think we had some, some really, really profound thoughts here. 01:48:57:27 - 01:49:20:02 Wade Well, and one of the things that I'm appreciating about it, and especially for my students that are listening to this and for any other viewer or anybody, is like these games do mean something in our own stories, right? And there's an intersection here where we can find our own life and meaning with unclouded eyes. To use this term from. 01:49:20:07 - 01:49:21:20 Ryan From, I guess. 01:49:21:22 - 01:49:33:16 Wade What we can see the reality in the truth of the moment, maybe without regret and all those kind of things. And it's really good stuff. right. So, Evan, do you have any kind of follow up closing questions? 01:49:33:18 - 01:49:48:08 Evan Well, we always want to give you the opportunity. If there's anything that you wanted to bring up or share that we didn't ask or chat about, we want to give you a chance to make sure that you get to share that or say that, and then we'll let you tell people, how to find you and stuff like that. 01:49:48:08 - 01:50:00:06 Evan After we give you a lot of compliments on your great work. So first of all, anything that you, anything that you didn't get to mention or that you had in mind that you wanted to make sure that we we included here as we kind of wrap up. 01:50:00:09 - 01:50:23:15 Ryan Oh, yeah. I guess the only thing that I, that I wanted to, like, tie into it that we didn't get to mention was that, you know, I think it's really interesting that if you take Final Fantasy seven and you take Final Fantasy ten, one of the biggest differences between those two games is the architecture. And I don't just mean like, the, the like the look of the architecture. 01:50:23:18 - 01:50:49:19 Ryan I mean, like the vertical length of the architecture. Final fantasy seven has a ton of very tall places, right? Places that I. And part of that is like, you know, kind of like that tower of Babel, like, you know, challenging God again, that ties back to to Shinra. Right? And, you know, the wealthy tend to live high up in Final Fantasy seven. 01:50:49:22 - 01:51:14:29 Ryan The poor people tend to live in lower places. and at the same time that they're living lower places, they're closer to the Earth. They're closer to where Final Fantasy seven receives as God. Right. And so I find that interesting that, you know, the wealthy are, in a way, living further away from God and that the, the poor people are actually living closer to it. 01:51:15:03 - 01:51:35:28 Ryan And the reason that ties into the Final Fantasy ten is because, of course, thanks to sin, there are no high places in Final Fantasy ten, right? There are no there is no high architecture. All there, however, there is one exception to that. And in that exception, two exceptions. Those two exceptions are Bevell and Zanarkand. 01:51:36:00 - 01:51:38:06 Wade Okay. So what do you make of that. Yeah. 01:51:38:06 - 01:51:40:18 Evan Why is that significant? 01:51:40:20 - 01:51:45:05 Ryan Bell and Zanarkand are the two places in defiance of God. 01:51:45:08 - 01:51:47:05 Ryan Oh yeah. 01:51:47:05 - 01:51:50:25 Wade That oh man. That's a great interpretation there. 01:51:50:25 - 01:51:52:03 Ryan That's awesome. 01:51:52:06 - 01:51:53:14 Wade Yeah. Oh my god. 01:51:53:16 - 01:52:18:00 Ryan And so like if you actually dig deep into the law of sin as a creature. Right. Because a lot of people will interpret that you yevon, the summoner who created sin was God in the religion. but they don't actually really regard Yevon as, as literal god. He's like a great philosopher teacher, but they don't think of him as like the creator or anything like that. 01:52:18:02 - 01:52:36:08 Ryan but I do think, like as you actually find out about 11, and it's unfortunate that the game doesn't really explicitly kind of elaborate about this, but yevon himself, the way in which he created sin was that he, the Zanarkand in the veil, were in a war. 01:52:36:22 - 01:53:12:13 Ryan And in order to win the war with the veil, he essentially made everyone into a faith so that he could essentially form sin, and everyone else would continue to live on as an unsent. So Zanarkand would be like this dream construct, much like Titus. Right. and he would basically use sin as, as, like a basically as a weapon of mass destruction to finally defeat, Bevell. 01:53:12:16 - 01:53:44:18 Ryan but Pavel ended up using it to politicize, and create a religion in order to control people based on sin. and so I just find it really interesting that, you know, the two or like, civilizations that essentially are in defiance of, like, you know, what the religious structure are also have very, very tall buildings. And they also have mocking, and technology, and they're able to live in defiance of God. 01:53:44:18 - 01:53:50:06 Ryan And there's exceptions made for them, but they're not made for everyone else. Right. So I find that interesting. 01:53:50:09 - 01:54:10:17 Evan In the sense of scale that you get to experience. And playing a video game is different than watching something. You can. If you want to see how tall something is, you can walk up to it and look up, right. And you could yeah, yeah, how big it is. So the way that you experience that scale and the meaning of it and feeling and developed or feeling open the way that they can change that, I thought they did a really good job of that. 01:54:10:17 - 01:54:27:27 Evan And seven, as you go from confined areas, when you're in these tight choices where the paths in life that they're choosing seem to be constricting, but then all of these open things start to happen as you explore, and then you'll go into like a through a small tunnel into a giant area like in the temple. Right. And then they'll change gravity and stuff, right? 01:54:27:27 - 01:54:36:28 Evan To make you feel like you're on your head, like, I thought that was a really creative way to use that architecture to help us experience some of those themes. That was really cool. 01:54:37:00 - 01:55:11:23 Ryan Yeah. also, I just want to throw in like, one more interesting thing about sin too, is that sin. Actually, one of the reasons that mocking that does attraction is because sin as a Zanarkand constructed Zanarkand having all the best technology, they want it to attack any civilization that could ever get any better technology to them. and so sin is kind of like programed to be attracted to, to machina and to basically anything in defiance of the religious construct that they have in place. 01:55:11:23 - 01:55:17:05 Evan And we would go on a, deep revisiting of the story of ten, because I had about one. 01:55:17:05 - 01:55:18:12 Wade Hundred percent. 01:55:18:15 - 01:55:19:16 Evan yeah, about it this much in a. 01:55:19:16 - 01:55:21:21 Ryan Long time. Well, both of these. 01:55:21:21 - 01:55:44:29 Wade Games, you know, and to the point, Ryan, I mean, both of these games have such a, an attention to the divine or the the equivalent of, religious sort of focus. Right? Whether it's the live stream or, whether it is, the idea of sin and, the sending and that funeral. Right, and that sort of thing. 01:55:45:01 - 01:56:22:22 Wade And I think that both games have a critique for those that would use or manipulate the goodness of the divine for their own ego, again, to oppress that collective whole. Whereas who was it? I think Brené Brown once said, you know, psychologist kind of out of Texas. I think she once said that religion, has somehow turned from an embrace of the mystery to an argument of the certainty. 01:56:22:24 - 01:56:47:23 Wade And when we get into this certain sort of thing, it's almost as though we can hold the divine. And when you can hold the divine, you can make things in your own image. You can begin to create the divine into your own ego. And while you may not be divine yourself, you are then able to you are able to use that theology or that religious construct to impose a will on others. 01:56:47:23 - 01:57:17:19 Wade Maybe it's through guilt obligation, maybe it's through religious structures and all this kind of stuff that you're in some ways molding the world around you to your liking. This is what we see with Bevell. This is what we see to a degree with the Zanarkand. And we certainly see it with Shinra. And, it's one of the things that I'm really curious about once we get to Wu Tai in part three, what will, a more, what will a different version of, planetary knowledge kind of play into this whole thing? 01:57:17:19 - 01:57:20:11 Wade Because we also see Cosmo Canyon two, right? I mean. 01:57:20:11 - 01:57:21:12 Ryan This. 01:57:21:14 - 01:57:48:09 Wade the commercialization of this religiosity, and in some ways, Cosmo Canyon is manipulating the life stream and the lure of the live stream just as badly as Shinra, for the oppression of people, right? To commercialize and commoditize, commodify, religion to, to some degree. So that's, I think it's a really cool point that you've made here, especially comparing these two games. 01:57:48:12 - 01:57:52:03 Wade Not the first comparison that seven and ten have, right? You've got the. 01:57:52:11 - 01:57:55:13 Ryan The guy Shinra and yeah. 01:57:55:15 - 01:58:01:20 Wade Richter and the the NPC and ten. So anyway, those that no, no. 01:58:01:23 - 01:58:04:29 Ryan I guess about that one. Well, yes. 01:58:05:02 - 01:58:24:06 Evan But one of the things that I really appreciate about your videos and your kind of style, and thank you for taking the time to come on and chat with us and for making all the things that you do, is that you have a very deliberative, calm way of being excited about things like, I think it's like the hype is inherent within you. 01:58:24:06 - 01:58:41:19 Evan It's not something that you have to generate or bring in. You can be very excited, but you're still talking in this nice tone. But I'm now getting excited. But like, you just you're very it's a very cool, relaxed, but it can also kind of create a lot of energy. And it really comes through in the stuff that you do. 01:58:41:19 - 01:58:54:28 Evan It's very deliberative and I love the pacing of it. so I appreciate that. Yeah. If you haven't checked out, any of Ryan's stuff, how would we find your videos? What's the best way to kind of keep up with what you have going on? 01:58:55:00 - 01:59:19:07 Ryan Oh, man. so the best way is to go to youtube.com. Slash the night sky prince. Also, following me on Twitter. I'm not calling it x. at ad night Skype friends underscore because some person out there took at night sky Prince and you don't want to know what happens when I find you. 01:59:19:13 - 01:59:25:12 Ryan So you. Wow. Oh that's threats. That's okay. 01:59:25:12 - 01:59:31:28 Wade A couple of other quick things for you. I see that you are sitting in a very nice chair right now. 01:59:31:28 - 01:59:32:25 Ryan Yeah. You want to. 01:59:32:25 - 01:59:34:07 Wade Do a plug for that chair real quick? 01:59:34:07 - 01:59:42:27 Ryan How could I get a chair like that? I want to do it. So this is a very lovely chair. Look at this guy. Clear out too much. 01:59:42:29 - 01:59:49:06 Ryan but this is a very nice Final Fantasy seven, rebirth chair. And also, I mean, look at this. Right. 01:59:49:13 - 01:59:52:26 Ryan Oh, look at that. Is like, this is like belt. That is. 01:59:52:26 - 01:59:54:02 Ryan Cloud's belt. 01:59:54:05 - 01:59:57:29 Ryan Wow. Yeah. And then and turn it around. 01:59:58:01 - 01:59:59:25 Wade But oh my gosh a Buster sword. 01:59:59:25 - 02:00:01:29 Ryan On the back. Look at that guy. 02:00:02:02 - 02:00:11:07 Ryan So it's very nice okay. Very nice that you can use you can use coupon code night Sky. you guys can put a link to that at. 02:00:11:10 - 02:00:15:06 Wade Yeah, we'll put it in the link. That's awesome. What is that? DCS racer? Is that what's going on? 02:00:15:06 - 02:00:20:06 Ryan It is. It is DCS racer, their drifting series, final fantasy seven rebirth chair. 02:00:20:09 - 02:00:20:17 Wade so. 02:00:20:19 - 02:00:33:13 Ryan I really recommend it. This is this is like, the most comfortable gaming chair I've ever owned. Very thankful for it because I was I was having some back problems with the other chair. And then I got this one in my back. It's just been singing Hallelujah every amazing. 02:00:33:13 - 02:00:45:08 Wade Okay. And also talking about self-care and body care. We do a thing. We have a phrase around here that we call games before games where you're doing real life things that are going to better you, especially in the gym and workout. 02:00:45:08 - 02:00:45:16 Ryan Yes. 02:00:45:17 - 02:00:51:27 Wade Before you get to your games, drop that arm routine, my dude, because your guns have been inspired. 02:00:51:28 - 02:00:53:07 Ryan So let us. 02:00:53:07 - 02:00:56:26 Wade Let us know how week two can have those pythons. Let's go. 02:00:56:27 - 02:01:19:06 Ryan Oh my God, man. Well, I would say you need to be eating probably around 150, 200g of protein a week. Okay. I, I work out around five days a week, which is great, which can be a lot, but it's only about it. It's only about an hour, you know, it's your compound movements that are really going to get you there. 02:01:19:06 - 02:01:29:13 Ryan So your bench press, your squat, your, barbell row, doing all that stuff. Do not ego lift. Ego lifting will be the death of you, man. 02:01:29:14 - 02:01:31:26 Ryan So are you, like, 8 to 10. 02:01:31:26 - 02:01:38:04 Wade Heavy or you like a 12 to 15 rep at a lighter weight, but keeping 12 to 15. 02:01:38:06 - 02:01:39:07 Ryan What do you like ten? 02:01:39:12 - 02:01:40:08 Wade 12 to 15? 02:01:40:08 - 02:02:03:22 Ryan Is it 12 to 15? And the reason is, is that like, there's nothing wrong with the 8 to 10 heavy. Sometimes I am doing that depending on like, you know, my mood and like what I want to do. My goals at the time. but honestly, I feel like when you're doing 12 to 15, you have better form, you have less risk of injury, and you're able to just really, you know, squeeze the muscle. 02:02:03:27 - 02:02:14:24 Ryan Because one of the things, and especially if you're a younger guy working out, you just think like the amount of weight on the bar equals how much of a man that I know. 02:02:14:24 - 02:02:18:03 Ryan Okay. Yeah. And it and that's. 02:02:18:03 - 02:02:28:03 Ryan That's that's so not the case, man. I promise you, the muscle only recognizes resistance. It doesn't know how much weight is actually on the bar itself. 02:02:28:06 - 02:02:29:04 Ryan Absolutely. 02:02:29:04 - 02:02:30:11 Wade Love you for saying that. Thank you. 02:02:30:11 - 02:02:31:24 Ryan Yeah, dude. 02:02:31:24 - 02:02:40:00 Wade At the next a light like at rebirth part three. or remake part three launch of it. We've got to have some time in the gym, at the hotel or whatever, like. 02:02:40:02 - 02:02:41:19 Ryan I mean, sure, that's going to happen. 02:02:41:21 - 02:02:43:27 Ryan we need to give, Phil Hartshorn in. 02:02:43:27 - 02:02:45:09 Ryan Oh, dude. Yeah, he's the. 02:02:45:11 - 02:02:46:24 Ryan He's the real master, man. 02:02:46:24 - 02:02:47:23 Wade I'm absolutely. 02:02:47:29 - 02:02:48:29 Ryan I'm just following him. 02:02:48:29 - 02:02:51:27 Wade Yeah, we do some martial arts with him before sunrise. That'd be. 02:02:51:28 - 02:02:53:10 Ryan Missed. 02:02:53:12 - 02:02:55:07 Ryan Yes, I'd love to. 02:02:55:09 - 02:03:12:18 Wade Well, man, thank you so much for taking the time with us. This has been so fun. And, I hope that everybody's gotten a deeper appreciation of you, not just as a content creator, but as a person, and certainly understanding all the content that you put out. And so thank you so, so much for your time. 02:03:12:18 - 02:03:14:25 Ryan Thank you for having me, man. I appreciate it. 02:03:14:28 - 02:03:37:05 Wade Absolutely. And everybody, make sure that you continue watching our, Final Fantasy seven rebirth lecture series where we have, lecture plays every Tuesday and Thursday night, including more interviews just like the one that you have heard. Thank you everybody. And, make sure that you subscribe and follow, us over at Prof. Nocturnes, as well as night Sky Prince on all of his socials as well, and especially on YouTube. 02:03:37:05 - 02:03:44:08 Wade And with that, my friends walked off. We'll see you in class. 02:04:08:27 - 02:04:29:26 Evan Thanks to Ryan aka Nightsky Prince for the wonderful interview. Thanks again to Husky by the Geek for the intro song. We are loving it. Thanks to Nick Smith who does our graphics and most of all. This program is brought to you by viewers like you. We hope you're doing great. Have a great week and we look forward to seeing you next episode. 02:04:29:27 - 02:04:31:20 Evan Bye bye.