Unveiling End-of-Life Mysteries with Chaplain Richard Sullivan

You are very welcome , and today we're talking about another difficult topic .

It's difficult to talk about those questions and the concerns that everybody seems to have as either we or the ones that we love face the end of our lives . So we're excited that Richard's joining us . Let me tell you a little bit about our guest . Richard Sullivan is an ordained minister with the General Assemblies of God .

He's been a credentialed minister since 2007 , but in addition to his pastoral education , he also completed four units of clinical pastor education and he served on staff as an ecclesiastical endorsed chaplain with Boone Health for 17 years , providing support as a staff chaplain , hospice chaplain and lead chaplain of spiritual care services .

During his years of ministry with Boone Health , Richard was active in bereavement care services , as well as palliative care and ethics committees . His role also included working with patients and community members in education and completion of health care directives durable power of attorneys , which we've talked a lot about in this series .

Richard currently serves as the lead pastor of Summit First Assembly of God in Holtz Summit and since July of 2021 , Richard , along with his wife Kelly , own and operate Blue Gas Senior Living in Ashland , Missouri . Wow , Richard , that is quite a bio .

You have experience and experience and experience in helping people with these issues around death and dying , so thank you so much for being our guest .

And it doesn't matter what day it is , and in my experience , it doesn't matter how deep your faith is you still don't want to go today . It's kind of a far off thought , and so I think it's difficult for individuals , it's difficult for family .

Grief is a difficult process to go through for everyone , and from a Christian perspective , a pastoral perspective , I think it's difficult because , as human beings , we were never designed by our creator to die , but we were designed to live . So death is not a natural part of life .

It is we seem like it is nowadays because we're all going to face death because of the result of sin on humanity , and that's the curse . Because of the result of sin on humanity , and that's the curse . We're designed to live and we're designed to live forever , and so death is just not a part of who we are .

So you're going to have two different perspectives , both the caregiver or the family , and the patient or their loved one . Those are the things I think we're going to continue to talk about how you pull those things out of individuals , or to minister to them or to give them space to do those things .

Through the years I always , with working with advanced care planning and durable power of attorneys , I always encouraged individuals and families to think of those questions that are in those directives from a faith perspective and what their faith perspective speaks to .

Those things always stood out was someone of the Jehovah Witness faith , normally and routinely , if they had an advance directive and a medical power of attorney filled out , most likely I'm going to say 90 to 95% of the time it was not a family member that was in charge of making those decisions .

When they couldn't make them anymore , it was usually one of their clergy or their faith group community and because they were just so strong theological perspectives that not everyone held to , including a lot of times the family members and so it was so important to those .

And I'll add in there sometimes that's difficult for family members and it's difficult for us as caregivers and even ministers to process , to be able to step back and say it may not be what we agree with also or what we would do , but you still have to respect them as an individual and their choices .

And I think we all , no matter what our faith is , no matter within the Christian umbrella , no matter what our theology is , we have to respect each other and I think that's part , personally , what I believe is the free will of God to make decisions for ourselves and to think for ourselves .

I'm not as half as busy as I was just a few years ago Of course my personality wants to keep busy most of the time because that's how I function the best .

I feel like my wife may disagree with me on that , but I feel like I function when I'm busy , but we're just constantly worrying about something else or trying to complete , and so it's that reality of putting that stuff straight in our face , of saying you have to make decisions that you really don't want to Because it's a little bit of a denial , again going

back , that we were designed to live and not die . that you know .

For you know , even for the senior citizen , for those in their 80s or 90s , who are at end of life and making these decisions , they're thinking about their kids , but most likely they're probably thinking about their grandkids and they don't want to make those decisions because right now we're in graduation season .

So through the years , you wouldn't believe the people who just try to hold on because they want to see their grandchild graduate from college or graduate from high school . And so it's almost like the old saying if you don't talk about it , it's not going to happen . But it is going to happen , but we continue to put that off .

So it's important I think you know being culturally competent can really make a difference in how those discussions

go . Would you agree with that ?

When you think about you know we're a mix of Christians , we're a mix of Muslims , and even in the Muslim sections they wouldn't call them denominations , but there are different lines of Muslim beliefs and they're not all like .

One line is like the Sunni Muslims , and so even in Columbia , missouri , which is where I am , you have individuals who may not even connect with the local Islamics that are here in Columbia , because that's a complete different section of the faith .

I'll save my story for some other time , but I've worked with many people who haven't agreed with me specifically through the years , but it wasn't a salvation issue .

Like when you said , even as Christians , we're okay to die , just not today . And as you said that I was like doggone it because I want to someday be ready to die , not today , but I do .

Someday , when my body is feeling me and my mind is feeling me , I want to be able to say take me , because I'm going to be in the presence of the Lord and I'm going to be restored .

I'm just ready . I don't know why the Lord won't take me , I'm just . I mean , she would be happy if I just walked in there and the Lord had just taken her home 10 minutes ago . That would be her wish . But that's not what has happened . But probably throughout this month , as you guys have been talking , we talk about bereavement and grief post-death .

There's a little bit of grieving that happens when you know death is coming and there's a point of acceptance that some Christians come to that you're just content with that and I think that's what you're talking about .

You want to get to a point where you know you've done everything you can , all your I's are dotted , all your T's are crossed , everything is complete .

And I think that's the great thing about the potential that our healthcare systems when you have social workers , you have chaplains , you have care teams , they come together and they want to minister to the person as a whole is to help them get to that point where everything is done that they can .

Basically , I'm going to use the term rest in peace , but rest in peace as they're waiting for that peace to come , term rest in peace , but rest in peace as they're waiting for that peace to come .

So it's true for other people , from people of other faiths too , because when they're , when they're secure in their theology and their faith tradition and they and they've come to a point of peace and they understand that peace , based on whatever their faith is , then , even though there's always an unknown fear , the transition , the acceptance comes easier .

And tying that back in from a Christian perspective , I've seen Christians who have been at that peace accept the death process and transition , maybe not quickly , but transition well as they approach and they reach death .

And if it's not , on their part of the individual who's facing death , no doubt the family or their caregivers , because they're about to lose them . So sometimes , sometimes it's best to have conversations and talk to through things , and sometimes it's best to have conversations and talk through things , and sometimes you can't say anything .

You just got to be that presence and hoping that in the presence , in the moment of casual conversations , that something will come up that can lead you down a path . Again , I firmly believe that we're all given free will . You can't make anybody do or believe anything that the Holy Spirit hasn't laid upon their heart to receive that and accept that .

And there's different roads and avenues that get us there . But as a whole , everybody wants to discuss that , maybe in different ways , and not every one of us can minister in the same way or be effective with all people . I'm not going to be able to effectively minister to everyone based on their past experiences as a pastor .

I'll shift for , as a pastor , speaking for a moment , I've experienced through the years of men in the congregations that I've served , men who have not been actively involved in the faith and maybe not actively involved in church , and I've noticed , if you listen to their stories or listen to the stories of their spouses , a lot of these individuals like I .

Have one particular individual in my church that I've gotten really close to . You know he went through Vietnam . He's seen things that I'll never be able to imagine and he's probably never going to talk to me about those things and all I can do is befriend him and not push it .

But I think there's a multitude and now that the baby boomers are aging and that's who we're going to be caring for in the next several years you're going to have that story over and over again .

You know little little hints from family members of of of their life experiences and you got to lead from those to know what to say and not what and not to say .

I say a hundred percent .

I guess no one ever knows a hundred percent , you know , but I didn't really ever know my dad's true faith following and what he felt about death and the afterlife and just being with him in those last days I was so very thankful that God just kind of opened up a window for a conversation to talk about what my dad felt like was next and was he ready for

what was next . And in those you know five minutes where I felt like he was with me and we had this conversation , it was just such a gift to me . It was like the best gift he gave me on the way out was for me to have the peace that he felt like he knew where he was going to spend eternity . He was ready to go .

He said it looks pretty good to me from here , which also made me think that he was going to spend eternity . He was ready to go . He said it looks pretty good to me from here , which also made me think that he was seeing something I wasn't particularly seeing and so .

But , like you said , it just had to wait for the conversation , for the opportunity for the conversation , and I was so thankful because it was just a God-sent moment .

helps bring them the peace which you just alluded to , that with that last five minutes , um , sometimes you have to go out of your way to just kind of help facilitate things and , and what I would say , be led of the lord , led of the spirit , to do those things because they're important . Um , those , those last few moments , last few days , are so important .

I you know it's interesting because you guys asked about we've been talking about the process Do certain individuals , do I notice that they , you know , accept or reach end of life and different ? It's always very intriguing to me that I'm going to go , I'm going to backtrack a little bit .

I made the statement that it's hard for us to think about dying or accept dying , because we weren't designed by God to die but we were designed to live . Revelation when I would see people who were of my own faith perspective , be ready for death , but lie there in the hospital bed for day after day and you say why , lord , are you not taking them ?

You know , I'm a firm believer that the Lord knows the day and time of our death , but the Lord has not planned our death . Our death is planned , is determined , based on the sin of humanity and and part of that is the curse of sickness it's on humanity .

And so when somebody is laying there , nearing end of life , you know they , they may have , you know , kidney disease and that may be what's bringing , you know , death to their body , but their heart's just fine , their lungs are just fine .

So their , their , their hearts are beating , their kid , their , you know , their lungs are breathing normally and so everything is fighting because they were designed to live and and so , and this process has to bring its toll and finally , after days , you know , death finally comes . And so it's just an interesting process for us as believers .

And what I was saying by going back to that is , if you notice , family members and friends gather around their loved ones as they're dying and they're no longer able to communicate verbally , ones as they're dying and they're no longer able to communicate verbally and they're , in some cases , sedated , or maybe it's they're sedated just as an effect of the medication ,

to keep them from experiencing pain which , by the way , should be a personal experience of the patient and family combined , not health care driven , but I always families . They're not dead yet . They're still here , so don't act like they're gone .

Every breath matters , so continue to love on them now , because don't lose any moments that you have , because so many times I think people just stare and they check out that the end is here and the end isn't here yet . That's still a life there . It's still a life that's being lived .

So I want to switch gears just a little bit , richard , and and talk about how to provide spiritual support to family members whose loved one died by suicide . I live in Colorado . We have the highest rate of suicide in the United States and , quite honestly , a friend of mine's husband died by suicide this week .

So how do you support someone who may or may not have spiritual beliefs and foundations around death by suicide ?

And I say that from experience because , um , because six years ago my middle brother committed suicide , and so I've experienced that personally , and so , um , I think the common thought is that once you've experienced it , you may understand it more . Experienced it , you may understand it more , but you really don't .

And so my years as a hospice chaplain and a lead chaplain within our community , I no doubt have close relationships with the local funeral providers and I've noticed through the years that after my brother's death that I'm the clergy that gets asked to officiate those services , and I assume they think that I know how to handle it or how to talk to them , but I

don't have the words . I think you have to be cautious . From a Christian perspective , you know , historically the church , in my thinking , has taught that suicide is a sin . So they just lost hope of heaven , which I totally think that's wrong . I don't think it should ever be said to a family .

And I'll say it from this perspective of why and again , because I've experienced this for myself and with my own brother .

I can't imagine , imagine what he must have been going through , or his lack of clarity in his mind , because it takes an absence of mental clarity , I think , to be able to do something like that , no matter how that event happens , and so I rely on the graciousness of God and the individual's faith prior to that to kind of set a hope and then leave that in

the hands of God . When it's somebody not of faith , I think it goes back to the same aspect that you view somebody who's passing away and it's reaching end of life , who was in denial or lacked any faith commitment .

There either comes a lot of questions or there comes anger and frustration because you don't know and I often have the thought you know , gee , is I just had this thought last week , before I even read your questions .

I just was driving down the road and had the thought you , you know such a beautiful day , you know , normally , if I was off and it was a beautiful day my brother and I would be working together on some kind of project . You know what he's , what is he doing today and where is he at ?

based on my own theology , you know , and the the world would try to give me a voice of what they think , but sometimes the unknown or the unspoken is just best said , and you know .

Going back to talking about grief , grief is a process for everyone and we each go through it in different ways and you got to know when to when to speak into that and when not as providers .

My family has experienced a loss by suicide and my mom is very Catholic and so , prior to the Vatican II or something that changed the Catholic faith , you know , if you died by suicide you would not be going to heaven , and so when my brother died , it was the spiritual angst was , you know , pretty significant for my mom , and what the priest told her was that

and this was , you know , what he believed was that if you choose death by suicide , that you're not of sound mind and so you can't be held accountable for making decisions , that you know it's like a sickness , that you couldn't be well by that , and so that brought a lot of comfort to my mom to think that , okay , he may still go to heaven because he made

a decision when he was not of sound mind .

I mean my , my brother , suffered with what I believe now , looking back , he was an alcoholic , he drank a lot , but I never knew of him to be depressed or those those , never . I didn't have a clue .

And you know , if you want to talk about suicide , we only know about suicide or hear about suicide and reflect on suicide when it impacts our own family or our own friends , friend circle . Because if in Columbia , particularly Columbia , missouri , there are more suicides that happen than we realize , it's just they're never reported on . People don't talk about them .

I had a conversation last week about an individual or with an individual . We had a conversation about this subject because there is a location in Colombia that has routine suicides . It's where people go but it's not reported . And I'm not saying it should be reported .

So it's almost like we're shutting it down and we're not addressing the importance of being there for individuals , and I mean , individuals go through all kinds of different things and face all kinds of different battles , and I think you can tie that into end of life too , because that's probably a different topic for a different day .

But as you're approaching end of life and you know , in our own country , in different states you have individuals have the ability to end their life , which is very controversial . Individuals have the ability to end their life , which is very controversial .

So in those cases they must be very content where they're at , in their faith or on their perspective , as they're facing the challenges they're doing . So we live in a complex world .

our hope in something right , I think , and so , as we die , I think that that that doesn't end like . For many of us , who either stand beside the bed or we're in the bed , there's a hope for something , and so I just think about the people that what are they hoping for ? Do they hope that they'll be reunited with their loved ones ?

Do they hope that their loved ones , you know ? What is it that people hope for in that situation ? I mean , I know what it looked like for me , but I don't want to speak for everyone . Both of you could answer this , probably because you've both been in those situations .

So I think that word hope is specifically tied to the Christian perspective .

I think when you have a solid hope that brings peace , that brings assurance and that brings a calmness , not only to the person dying but to the family , you know , I have a four-year-old daughter and I have a 12-year-old son and , uh , we've experienced a lot of death in our family through the years and , no doubt , being a pastor , you know , um , and I try

to , I don't try to hide death from my kids at all , we try . I mean we , we own a retirement facility that my kids are actively at , and so they have a lot of grandmas and grandpas , yeah , and so my five-year-old will talk about heaven as such a real place , and that's got to be our perspective .

And I know this is funny , but the other day she was sitting on my lap and she said Daddy , what is that white stuff in your beard and I said it's because I'm getting old . And she said you're going to be going to heaven really soon and that was a positive thing . She didn't see that .

I mean , if I was really going to heaven there would be some repercussions and some grieving going on . I'm sure , hopefully , but she had a . Again , it's that hope , that hope of heaven , and again , from the Christian's perspective , those of us who have that hope it's the fulfillment of what we started this conversation with .

We weren't designed to die , but we were designed to live . So when you tie hope in of who Jesus is and what he's done as our gift and the price of salvation through Jesus is how us , as Christians , receive our eternal life and we live forever and never die , and that's our hope .

So thanks for ending on that note . Thanks for listening to the podcast . We're honored . You're sharing your day with us , do you ?

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