¶ Problematic Perfection and Learning About India
Hey friends , welcome to the Problem with Perfect . What is the Problem with Perfect ? It's the myth that if we just do more , be more and have more , our lives will be perfect . I'm Robin May , a journalist , wife , mother and , most days , a faith-filled Christian , and I'm Denise Bickel , a clinical therapist , educator , mom , mimi and spirit-filled follower .
As recovering perfectionists , we promise to be transparent and real and to share the wisdom of trusted advisors and guests .
So pull up a chair and have a seat . There's always a place for you at our table . Welcome back to another episode of the Problem with Perfect and straight off the jet from India . Denise is back .
Yeah , yeah , yes , I am and glad to be so , oh , we're glad to have you back .
It's kind of funny when I said straight off the jet , you looked at me because it's like no , I am talking about Denise , not Taylor Swift , which was two episodes ago .
Oh , I listened to those . I listened to that one and laughed quite a bit . You girls were over something else . And then I listened to the chat , gt AI and used AI yesterday for my blog . So I am impressed with the good work you girls did while I was gone .
Well , shout out to Rachel . Thank you to Rachel for rejoining the podcast and Denise's absence . We did have fun talking about like why are we so crazy over Travis and Taylor ?
I'm going to let the men who reached out to me remain anonymous , but I even had some men reach out going man , I'm embarrassed to admit it , but yeah , I kind of do care , I kind of do think that's interesting . The episode last week about artificial intelligence and how to use chat use chat , gpt I think it's really important .
And after the episode with Rachel , I was like I got to get on this bus and I'm so excited and impressed with you that you're like I'm getting on the bus , that's right .
Well , honestly , it was the episode because I was writing in my blog and I use a particular I don't know what you call it software , whatever . I saw that it had an AI button , so I thought , well , I'm just going to give this a try and took a couple of times to get it , you know , figured out , as Rachel predicted , but it was . It was interesting .
It the revisions to the blog were good , but they were more formal than the blog is . You know , that's really just me rambling about things that I did or I noticed so , but it was . It was interesting to see how it , how it redirected things and added to things , and so , good lesson I'll be . I'll continue to learn .
Yeah , well , and for everyone . I did do something different last episode . I used artificial intelligence to develop a transcript , which is the word by word .
So if you go into the podcast and you can find the transcript , because I think she gave some very specific instructions about how to make chat GPT smarter yes , smarter and more intuitive to you , like you said , you know , so you can give it three examples of your writing and say use this tone and those sorts of things . So , anyway , I am fascinated by it .
I think the thing that she said that really motivated me and I think you and I talked about this is you know people in your life that are not Google savvy , but they ask you questions and you're like well , just Google that . And they're like well , how would I Google that ? And you're like really , how would you go ?
You know , and Rachel said , those sorts of people we don't want to become those people , because people that don't use chat GPT are going to be as disadvantaged in the future as people who don't know how to use Google now . So there's the motivation for us all Amen , amen .
So , all right , speaking of amen , I hope you felt the power of prayer , because lots and lots and lots of prayers were said for you while you were gone for two long weeks to India . And I say two long weeks because it kind of felt like you were gone forever . And it was very weird because every morning I would look for people that don't know .
I have taken upon myself that I would I like Denise to share her location with me In case she ever goes missing . I want to know where the body is buried , literally . And so she shares her her location with me and so every morning I would look up and those were like 2,500 miles away .
Yeah , the initial flight over was 8500 miles to our first city that we were visiting and then added , you know , hundreds of miles throughout the 14 , some air , some airplane miles , some lots of taxis and bus rides and things like that . So it was . It was a lot of traveling .
Coming home , you know , once you miss a flight , a flight was delayed , and then everything falls to pieces Because , yeah , then you don't make your connecting flight , then you have to have a longer layover , and so it took us 48 hours to get home to stay . We were supposed to be home at nine in the morning and we got home at nine at night .
So it was a long . It was a long return and I can manage in after two weeks .
An extra 12 hours probably felt more like days than hours at that point .
Yes , you know , I think I and I know a lot of people that travel talk about this if you're going there and it gets delayed , you're anxious to get there . But it's not like I just want to go home and I'm not going to be at home for 12 more hours . So it was .
It was a lot of traveling , a lot of time spent waiting , so but , boy , up until the very last day , we had not lost a piece of luggage , we had not missed a flight , and I mean , you know , we took lots of flights and lots of rides and things .
So we kept commenting on , boy , how blessed we were that everything was just going off without a glitch until it didn't until it didn't .
Well , at least it did happen at the end , and it was . The entire trip wasn't plagued by those sorts of things .
So no , not at all . Yeah , give God thanks for that .
So , all right , well , there's lots of places to start , but this whole episode is really going to be dedicated to kind of learning about India , which , as one of the it as the second largest , most second most populated not second largest , second most populated country in the world . There's lots that we can benefit from knowing about it .
So we're just going to kind of dig into what do we need to know about India ? What did , what does it really look like to take a mission trip somewhere to like India for two weeks ? What did you learn from that ? And you know , what would you say about mission trips ?
So I'll just start by saying thanks for your willingness to be transparent about the experience .
Sure , absolutely Well . I think you know India . We had talked on the podcast several months ago I was watching the Indian matchmaker on Netflix to become accustomed to their culture and that is not the culture that we experienced on this mission trip .
I think those people must live in Mumbai , which we did have a layover in Mumbai , but one of our many stops along the way . But you know , the poverty is where we were . The poverty was really hard to see and witness . We went to an area where we pulled up . We went through a dirt road and we pulled up and there were .
There were tents that were manmade out of black plastic . It looked like they were big trash bags that they had used , with dirt floors , and people lived in those . Really , you know , it's just one of those things where you almost have to see it to believe it .
And there were those tents were all around this area and that's where people and little children and where they had made a church where people came in , although it was not everyone is accepting of Christianity in India , and so the area that we were in that day . You know , we kind of had to be secretive about the fact that we were there .
That was one of my questions that I had for you .
Yeah , although I did comment . You know two vans full of white people pulled into this area . We were hardly , you know , indiscriminate in our , in our appearance , but you know they have this church built there again a lean to kind of situation and full of little children and adults that were praising and singing and they gave us all scarves .
So you know , there was , there were constant contrasts between what we were seeing and what we were expecting , and it was really something to be immersed in that culture .
Yeah , I'm remembering the movie Slumdog Millionaire , exactly , yeah , so I think I just looked it up as a 2008 , but it made impressions on me just watching the film , right , and so I can imagine what it's like . No , to actually be a part of that , right .
Yeah , we were staying in a hotel somewhere Agra I think we were and beautiful hotel , old , gorgeous furnishings , and I looked out the window and below our window was , you know , acres of trash .
Oh .
Yeah .
Yeah .
Yeah , those kind of juxtapositions , you know I don't want to say we got used to them , but you know , after a while you just knew that that was what it was going to be like .
Wow , my gut hurts just a little bit hearing you say that , yeah , yeah , and just the stimulation that kind of gives your body and your mind and even I can , I can imagine , like the smells , people you know everywhere .
Yes , yeah , everywhere in cows . Cows are sacred in India , so they are allowed to roam the streets and have right of way of any traffic . You're driving on kind of like a highway and there's a cow you know because it's it can and goats . Goats aren't sacred , but there are lots and lots of goats , so you know those .
Those were things that you don't typically see when you're driving . What , what ?
Yeah , yeah . How do people keep from hitting Well the cows especially , but the cows and the goats ? How do vehicles keep from hitting them , or do they ?
you know , the cows really stay on the side of the road , so we saw a couple and you have to stop , okay . So you know , the goats were usually tended by like I don't know if you call them shepherds , because they were goats , not sheep , but the people that you know we're with the groups of and they were on the side of the highway roads to .
Yeah , so yeah , I just have to ask is I should know , I guess maybe the answer to this question , but the whole expression Holy cow , did it come from India ?
Yes , I believe it did . Yeah , we talked about that because they are holy and if you are found to have beef like beef in your home , you can be fined for that , because there's no beef anywhere .
In fact , you know , many , many of us talked about we just can't wait to get to McDonald's , and so we finally got to a McDonald's in somewhere and it was chicken patties , it wasn't .
Yeah , oh , how things change .
Yeah .
Yes , yes , like yeah , how funny you are for just a little bit of the comfort of home , yes , yes .
Yeah , we did get french fries somewhere and that was a real treat . Yeah .
Yeah , well , and the food is very different , there , isn't it ?
Oh , yes , it is . I have decided that if I never see another curry dish , it will be too soon . In fact , by about day 10, . I just ate protein bars that I had taken with me , because , I mean , the spices that they use will absolutely set your throat and mouth on fire , and some people loved it and some people are like I .
And it's breakfast , lunch and dinner it's not like you know . Yeah , people ordered omelets for breakfast and took a bite and went oh my gosh , oh my gosh , you know . So , yeah , I'm not a fan of Indian food , but we were served it everywhere that we went .
Well , which I'm . That is a cool thing about the experience that they didn't try to , you know , americanize your food . It's like , okay , you're going to be immersed in the culture You're going to see the trash . You're going to eat the spicy food . I would eat the trash , but I love the spicy food .
Yeah , every , every bathroom had a bum gun , so it looked like a hose with a , you know , one of those attachments on it that you spray off your driveway or your sidewalks , high powered .
High powered and you're supposed to put that on your bottom .
Yeah , some places just had a bum gun and a drain .
That was it . I don't even know what to say about that , and I'm never at a loss for words , yeah .
Yeah it , yes . So toilet paper was , was sort of a delicacy , you know , like not it . I don't think delicacies are the right word , but certainly a privilege . We people they told us to take toilet paper and I thought , oh no , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , that was . That was culturally different for us to experience that , you know , we made the best of it .
Absolutely . And if you don't know , I'm just going to tell you the things about India that really did surprise me . So I didn't realize , until I started investigating your little , your little trip , that that India has the second largest population in the world , next to only China , of 1.4 to billion people . Yes , billion with a billion yes .
And so I was like , well , how does that compare to the US ? And the US is 144 million people with an M yes , and so it's four times Right . Yeah , that's the population of our country yes , yes , like that is a whole bunch of people , and so then my next question was well , but how big is the country ?
And I learned that it is about a third of the size of our country . That's right .
Yeah , and I was surprised it's considered part of Asia , you know . So that surprised me , I didn't realize that . And it has , you know , borders Pakistan , russia , china .
¶ Life in India
But the concentration of people is really significant and we were in I don't know four or five , five cities throughout India and it just people everywhere .
Yeah , yeah . What would be like a normal , like living if you didn't live in one of the slum dog areas , like when I see in my head what that looked like and you described it with the garbage bag tent like for a family that's lucky enough there to actually have like a home . You know how many people would live there . What would that look like ?
You know , I don't know , I know that they have like high rise apartment buildings . It looks like , yeah , that makes sense , yeah , so you see those , I think those would be very fortunate people that would live in those . Okay , that would have that accessible to them .
But you know , they hang their laundry off the balcony and yeah , yeah , I don't think many people have have that for housing . But we saw , you know , we saw those throughout the different towns that we were in .
Yeah , well , I was also surprised , but I guess not entirely , that India has ranked among the worst countries for their quality of life for like several years , and in fact it ranks 58 , the second worst in the world .
Yeah , yes , I would say so , mm . Hmm , one of the things that was really difficult while we were there was the air quality . Yes , so here in Colorado our air qualities , like 33 , is good , and when we were in somewhere it was 160 and you could , you could feel that difference . In Delhi it was over 300 . And then we had the pollution .
I think I sent you the picture I took of the Taj Mahal and it looks like I used to filter it . Absolutely did , yeah , and I absolutely did not . That's how's , and you would feel that as you were trying to breathe , you know just the heaviness of that air .
And I think that picture when we post this episode , because I think that picture really is worth a thousand words , you're like , because I actually I mean for sure thought , oh no , this . I actually was like look at Denise making these artsy , fartsy photos and you're like , nope , that's smog , that's right .
Yeah , thanks for the credit , but no . So you know that that heaviness of that also contributed to a lot of coughing , as you may hear , a lot of hoarseness , and I think that's why I'm saying that Eight out of the 11 of us that went developed COVID type symptoms . My roommate tested positive for COVID .
Several people I mean I kept testing in my tests were negative . But I've had COVID before and I'm sure I had COVID . It was just one day of feeling really , really horrible . But I think , whatever it was the smog , you know , the traveling , the exhaustion , all of that contributed to most of us , you know having days where we didn't feel that well .
Yeah , yeah , that that presents a whole nother batch of challenges , so kudos to you for sticking it out , and you mentioned a bunch of things that I think , according to , when they look at the factors that affect quality of life , you know the access to , to , to safe air , to clean water , to basic education , to health care and affordable housing , and then
safety . Safety was on the list as well , and so I wanted to ask you about that Did you feel safe while you were there ?
I did , but we never went anywhere alone . So you know it was a group of us and it was very deliberate . If someone wanted to go to a market to shop , then you know two or three of us went to the market to shop , usually almost always taking one of the guys with us .
¶ Experience in India's Education System
I think you know there's so many contributing factors to why it's so difficult , but yet I also see that , or also saw that they are trying to make improvements . I did , of course , ask about their healthcare system because I wanted to know about that . The wealthy people have private insurance but they do not have a Medicare , medicaid system , anything like that .
It's just government healthcare . And lots of you saw lots of signs about hospitals , but when you saw them they looked more like clinics . But I did ask some people do you have like an oncology hospital ? And they did somewhere . So I don't know where those resources were . But for the most part people just go to the clinics , I think , and are treated .
Interesting .
Well , and one of the things that I did find as I was researching about India and I know that you were telling me about this before you go but that that that India is very proud of their vibrant , their rich cultures and their hospitality and warmth , and I was surprised by that in the midst of those kind of very difficult things like not having access to
water and bathrooms and those sorts of things .
Yeah , no , the water situation was such that , you know , we bottled water and that's what we would use to brush our teeth . You wouldn't use the water for anything . We all took bottles that had filters in them , water bottles that had filters in them , and then we were able to buy bottled water different places , but you didn't use any ice there .
You didn't use . So that was different . But yet , at the same time , we went to several people's homes and they prepared beautiful meals and presented them graciously and it was all you know , indian food , but nonetheless , you know they were love and yeah , they had so little and yet , you know they wanted to share with us .
Yeah , you know , what's fascinating to me , denise , is that , based on everything that you've said about the country and that I've read about the low quality of life , I was shocked at the life expectancy between those in India and those in our country , that there wasn't a larger disparity , because in the US , depending on you know exactly the source , but somewhere
after COVID , around 76.6 years , and for in India it's a little over 70 years .
Yeah , I didn't see any centenarians . I don't think . I don't think you know that . I don't know where those elderly people were . We saw mostly people that were very young , children for sure , and then you know 20 , 30 , 40 , 50 .
Yeah , well , my guess is that those folks are being taken care of by the people you did see .
Yeah , I hope so yeah .
Well , speaking of taking care of people , tell us really what were the goals of your trip and then what does kind of your itinerary look like to achieve those goals .
Yeah , so the church that I go to sponsors the Sanjeev John Foundation , which is a very large complex in Hyderabad that is built was built in houses , and I don't have all of the statistics so I apologize for that , but I think there's 24 different housing units that house children who have been brought to the school for various reasons .
And then there was a program for the women who had been rescued from sex trafficking or were a product of sex trafficking . There were after school programs where children came after school because their parents were working and so they would come to these homes throughout the community .
But it's kind of hard to refer to that area like that , but nonetheless , just lots of different places where the goal of the team was to go and talk about Jesus and to talk about how to be kind and gracious in the midst of growing up and learning new things and sharing the word of God talking .
You know Bible verses and songs , and so that was a new experience for me .
You know Catholics really do that that much , so it was a very definite reminder that I need to be studying the Bible more , because I just do not know enough about that , but nonetheless , you know we were there to pour the Bible and we were there to do that , but nonetheless , you know , we were there to pour into the children and to teach them about we had
all . We had a great activities director who did all kinds of projects where it showed the five , you know , sin was read and forgiveness and growth , and we made braided bracelets about those things . So lots of different ways to teach the children about that .
And then , you know , we put beads on the bracelets and so there were lots of different activities that we did with the kiddos just to pour into them while they were there . While we were there , I should say .
Yeah , I love that song . How many said there were 24 houses ish ? So that was in the one school . Yeah , is that the school that there were like 1200 students .
Yes , I think it's 1600 .
1600 students .
That's cool . Yeah , yeah , yeah . And then he's actually Sanji . John is the gentleman who started the John Foundation and their motto is bringing hope the sustainable way , and everything that he has developed has a greater purpose .
So in the school and I wrote these things down because I was just in awe of this man so in the school where we were , they had women making patterns sitting on the ground cutting out patterns based on you know someone's dimensions , measurements . They were hand sewing beautiful garments with you know bejewels and all that .
They had a health concentration where students were learning sort of CNA roles , phlebotomist roles , pharmacy tech roles . There was English as a second language , there was computer training . There was a beautician school where they were learning to do eyebrows and cutting hair , and HENNA . So we all got HENNA on our hands .
We're not all , but several of us got HENNA while we were there .
And then they even had an electrical school for students to learn , like how to wire things and fix things , so that what this school is doing is giving these students an education to better their lives , Because without it the destitution was really hard to see , and so the fact that he's and now it started the program started out that it was just students that
lived in the school and now people pay to come to the school to receive this training and he has a tremendous success rate and they rotate the programs every three months .
I love that . So the program in itself by the , by definition , is actually self-sustaining by the fact that they're opening up it up to the broader population . But yeah , just teaching life skills . So is Sanjay John ? Is he a Christian ? Yes , he certainly is .
He's just broke ground on the third school that he's building and they have a . They have you would call it a factory , but it's not what we're used to as factories . But after the women are learning these sewing skills , then they go to this factory where they sew things clothing items that are sold in New York under the label .
So you see that progression of their skills and ability to support themselves and their families , and he is a mastermind at developing these programs to enrich the lives of the students . So it really is something to see .
Yeah Well , I love so many things about that . Like it's you know the Bible talks about . You know , if you see someone in need and you , just you know , you say bless them like , hmm , are you really meeting their needs ? Right , but to dig in and to talk to them about , oh , how can you like the skills and experience that you have ?
How can you take that to these women in the school and help them on a practical level ? Because you know overall health , as we know , it's not just spiritual and it's not just physical or even emotional . It's like how do all those three things come together ?
And the reality is that if you're starving , it's really hard to focus on your spiritual and your emotional health because your physical need is so great . So being able to help these people address their physical needs while also then feeding their souls is just such a cool picture .
Oh , my goodness , and their future that you know . You and I have strong supporters of education . This is the only way that they would be able to get out from underneath that dire poverty would be through education . And there were some boys at the school also .
So in some instances , you know , for whatever reason , various reasons , families are not able to care for their children , and so they send the boys to school as well . In fact , that's how the foundation started . Was Sanji and his wife ? Someone left two children on their doorstep .
Wow , and from that and I think it wasn't , it wasn't that long ago I wish I had all that information he was going to send . I told him you know we were going to be talking and he was . I just haven't gotten it yet .
So we can show notes . Hopefully we'll get it before . Yeah , exactly yeah .
So one such example and this is really the highlight of my trip , so we were with the girls , the children , a lot .
The first week , that was where we concentrated was the school and there was this one little girl and she just caught my eye and she would just smile and grin and she had these pretty little barrettes and I told her how pretty she was and every time I would see her she would just be like you know , I see you .
So he was talking about sponsoring children , because we talked about how do you , what do you do , you know , to support all these kids ? And he said well , you know , they have to be selling the clothing and different things like that . He said but you know , people sponsor the children . And I said so I could sponsor a child .
And he goes oh yeah , you certainly could . And so I said , okay , I'm going to sponsor this little girl .
¶ Mission Trip Reflections and Personal Stories
And I hadn't gotten a picture with her and I'd ask her what her name was and I thought she said B , e , e , b , I , k , a , b , bica , but she's spoken Hindi , so I didn't . So I said is that , could you find her in ? I said I think she's like four or five . Well , the next day . There she was .
Her name is deep Deepika D E , e , p I K A , so had that wrong , but they found her anyway . She's actually 10 , although she looks , you know , like she's four or five , just very small and thin . And they gave us a little bio ever , and you'll appreciate that she lost her mom to cancer a few years ago .
Her dad struggled to come to terms with his loss and to look after his three kids when he could no longer adequately provide for them . He brought her to the John Foundation . So to find a little girl whose mom died of cancer , whose dad's grief you know I just thought , oh , my goodness , she's perfect for you . Yeah , she's perfect for me .
So the way it works is you send I mean , I'm just PayPal $30 a month and that pays for the her monthly expenses , and then you know , I know her birthday and things like that , so I can send her cards and letters , things like that . So it was really a moment .
I can tell I get the pleasure of seeing your face as we record this for our listeners . Yeah , I can tell on your face how much that means to you . And not to break the seriousness of the moment , but I don't know if you know this , but I actually , in college , had a Hindu boyfriend from India .
I did not I know right the things that I will bear my soul about on this podcast if you listen long enough . So his name was Deepak . There you go . Yeah , deepak , deepakki or however you said , that I think is the feminine version of his name , which I think is a very , a very dipika , a very popular name in India .
Yes , yeah , and back to my love life and he . They fled to Kenya and then eventually England , which is where I intersected with him but and I loved every spicy thing that his mother cooked .
Yeah , not so much .
Yeah , but unfortunately spicy mom did not like spicy American girl , so that's a whole nother story . There you go , yeah , but anyway .
So yeah , so there were . There were moments that were just , we were at church the first Sunday at the school and they took up , you know , the collection and there was this little boy who put money in the collection and I thought , how do you even have ? It was a coin , you know . But it was just that moment .
Oh gosh , yeah , we were all wondering where in the world did he even get that money , you know ? Just uh , yeah , it was a moment , it really was a moment and in fact it kind of , you know , brought to mind am I doing enough ?
Hmm , Well . Well , that that leads me to my final question for our podcast today and for people that feel this prompting or this inquisitiveness about a mission trip , what advice and what would you say to the person that's considering it and or feels like that's being laid on their heart ?
Yeah , I think most of us agreed two weeks was a really long time . You know , I think you could go on a mission trip . I think you , you guys , you and Tom may have been like for a week and that's long . Yeah , and that's long Um . So I think that's something to consider is the length of time .
I don't think you have to go to India to be able to do a mission trip , and what I came home with was I think there's a lot I can do in my own backyard . I don't have to go anywhere . There's food banks everywhere . You know .
We've talked about what to do for Christmas , how we can do things rather than give gifts , and we have all of our shelters are opening downtown because we're going to have a miserably cold weekend , and so I think you know , maybe start with your own backyard and then , if you're still led , think about you know where you would like to serve , do some .
I did a lot of research about India , india's culture , be the language before we went , and then find some place that pulls at your heart and then do it .
And then do it . I love it , then do it . Yes , well , you just did it , girl , you are a Nike commercial .
Well , I'm glad I did . I don't you know , I maybe a week one in the future , one that's a week long in the future . I am so tired . I have really got trouble with jet lag , so having a hard time talking , but for right now I'm just really grateful to have had the experience and grateful to be home safe and sound . Amen .
That's about all we could ask for . Well , I'm grateful that you shared the experience with us and I'm grateful that you got to have it as well . So until next week , friends . Thanks for listening .
¶ Join Perfect Book Club
Thanks for listening to the podcast . We're honored . You're sharing your day with us . Do you love a good ?
book , so do we ? So join us for the problem with perfect book club . If you'd like more information about what we're reading this month and how to join us for the virtual discussion , please email us at the problem with perfect at gmailcom .
Or if you have a topic you'd like us to discuss on the podcast , use that same email the problem with perfect at gmailcom to send us your ideas or feedback . We love hearing from you .
And if this episode has been helpful , please share it with a friend or a family member who might find it encouraging . Secondly , we would love for you to leave a review on Apple or on Spotify . It's only going to take you a few minutes , but it will really help our podcast grow .
And while you're there , make sure you subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode .
As always , a special shout out to our editor , Jordan Overcamp , for making us sparkle .
And remember , there's always enough grace for you today , so be sure to give it to yourself .