>> Jeniffer: Hello and welcome to the premise. I'm Jennifer Thompson. I'm, Chad Thompson, and we are here today with Zibby Owens. Zibby, welcome to the promise. >> Zibby Owens: Thank you. Thanks for having me. >> Jeniffer: Yay. This is gonna be fun. So I met Zibi when she was so gracious, and you came and spoke at the fourth annual San Diego Writers Festival. I don't know if you remember meeting me. It was right out in front of one of our food tents.
They were cooking meat, and there was, like, smoke in the air, and it's, like, super sunny and beating down on us. And I was, like, sweating, and I walked up to you, I'm like, oh, my God, it's so good to meet you. And you're looking at me like, who the hell are you? >> Zibby Owens: No, I totally remember that. I totally remember the whole thing. It was really fun. >> Jeniffer: It was cool. And I got to meet Kyle, who is very, handsome and, just as sweet and gracious as
can be. And, Yeah, and then you were a sponsor of our fifth annual, so we just. Thank you so much for your support and, well, everything you do and publishing in books. >> Zibby Owens: You're so welcome. I'm sorry I couldn't be there last time. >> Jeniffer: Well, next year. There's always next year. So let me start out by telling our lovely listeners a little bit about you. Zibby Owens is the author of a novel, bookends, a memoir, m of love, loss, and literature, and the children's book Princess
Charming. She is also the editor of two anthologies. She's a frequent contributor to Good Morning America and other outlets. She has been called NYC's most powerful book fluencer, which I think is absolutely true, and I can't wait to dive in and talk more about that. She is the creator and host of the award winning daily podcast is it really daily? You do it every day. >> Zibby Owens: I have been doing it every day. I went to five a week about three weeks ago.
>> Jeniffer: Oh, good for you. I'm like, I am so tired just reading that sentence. The almost daily week daily podcast. Moms don't have time to read books. She is the co founder and CEO of publishing house Ziby Books, owner of Zibby's Bookshop, an independent bookstore in Santa Monica, California, and creator of the Zibi verse la Times community of book lovers, for which she offers retreats, classes, special events, a book club, a writing group, and more under the Zivi media
umbrella. She's a graduate of Yale University and Harvard Business School. She currently lives in New York with four kids, ages nine to 16. Is that accurate? >> Zibby Owens: Yes. >> Jeniffer: And, of course, her husband, Kyle, which I've already mentioned, who is the co founder, and, I'm sorry, co president and founder of Morning Moon Production. So, again, Zivi Owens. Welcome. Welcome to the premise. >> Zibby Owens: Thank you. I just love the way you speak and read.
You have, like, the perfect voice for this. So I'm just gonna take that audio clip and play it whenever I need a bio. >> Jeniffer: There you go. Yeah, please do. You're like, and here's my bio. >> Zibby Owens: And exactly. >> Jeniffer: You're very welcome to, You do so much, it kind of blows my mind. I imagine you have a big team of great people who help make all this happen. >> Zibby Owens: Can, you imagine if I was like, no, no, it's really just me. >> Jeniffer: It's all just me. I do it all.
>> Zibby Owens: No, I have a whole team. They are wonderful, truly fabulous women. We have one man, actually, but, >> Jeniffer: We always have to have the token mail. I have chad. >> Zibby Owens: Yeah, there you go. You do.
>> Jeniffer: Also my husband, so he's a little more than token, but anyway, >> Zibby Owens: But yes, I have really fabulous women leading every division, and it's been wonderful to foster a lot of those careers, and some of them came in at totally different jobs, and we've figured out what everyone's great at and just, keep moving people around. So, yeah, it's been great. >> Jeniffer: That makes me happy to hear you say that. So many people are like, oh,
I'm not good at this, so I'll learn how to get better. And I'm like, well, how about you just don't do that and do what you're good at and stop wasting time? >> Zibby Owens: A, healthy mix is good. >> Jeniffer: Well, I guess sometimes we have to do things we don't like, right? >> Zibby Owens: Right. >> Jeniffer: So let's go back to the beginning. You have literally started an empire out of sharing stories and empowering authors. But didn't that empire start in your closet? Do I have that right?
>> Zibby Owens: not my closet, but my. >> Jeniffer: Someone told me she started in her closet. I was like, oh, my God, that is awesome. Okay, so tell us. >> Zibby Owens: Well, the first podcast I ever did was into my phone, you know, perched on the side of my bed. So maybe that's what you heard. >> Jeniffer: Okay. >> Zibby Owens: After that, I got a microphone, same one that I still have, and slapped it on my desk in my office. And that's where I've been ever since.
>> Jeniffer: Which we got to ask which microphone? >> Zibby Owens: I have a blue yeti. What do you have? >> Jeniffer: I don't know. Chad, what do I have? Well, Jennifer is speaking into an electro voice re 20, which then goes in. Yeah, whatever that is. And what are you using, Chad? Same one. Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah, I don't know about these things. I just sit down and talk. That's for the three audio nerds in our listenership. >> Zibby Owens: I googled easiest podcast microphone. Easiest podcast
platform. This is like the bare bones, not too many buttons. >> Jeniffer: So why, like, what made you decide to start a podcast? >> Zibby Owens: Well, I really wanted to sell a book, to be honest with you. I had been trying to get a book published for my entire life, pretty much since I was nine, and decided I was going to be an author. it's not quite the straight line that I had hoped it would be, but that's okay.
I had just gotten divorced and had some time on my hands that I wasn't used to having every other weekend when the kids would go with their dad. And I decided to, sort of intentionally get back into reading, which I loved, even though I had been reading, but, like, really get into it and get back into writing and writing essays and all the things I like to do. And I started writing essays about parenting. After a year, I had a lot of essays, and by then, I was,
I think, engaged to Kyle, or dating Kyle. Anyway, he suggested that I turn my essays into a book, and I made a joke. Ugh. like, moms don't have time to read books. And then I thought, oh, that's so funny. That's what I'll call my book. So I tried shopping that around. I was not on social media. I didn't have a platform. All the agents I talked to were like, no way. And then a girlfriend suggested, well, why don't you start a podcast? And I thought, well, why would I do that? I don't
even really listen to podcasts. I don't know how to do that. But I figured if the book that I was trying to write was going to be thrown away, at least I could save that funny title and use it for a podcast. And then I could talk to authors on the podcast, which is something that I love doing. And I had my first, pen pal relationship with an author when I was ten. And I just think authors are such rock stars, and this whole thing is like a dream
come true. And it all started with this whole, okay, well, I'll just try it and see what happens attitude. And it's all gone from there. >> Jeniffer: I think one of the things I like most about your podcast is it's so real. It's like, And you just said I was in bed and I slapped it all together. I looked it up and I did that, and I'm still doing that, but it's like, it feels just so genuine and authentic and real, and I think that makes people comfortable and more at home.
>> Zibby Owens: Thank you. It, is real. >> Jeniffer: None of this real. >> Zibby Owens: I don't know about your podcast, but, yes, this is actually just me talking into my microphone. I don't know. I'm not good at sort of bluster and, false anything. but you know what? I don't know. I just tell it like it is, I guess. >> Jeniffer: But let's talk about that for a minute. Cause, this is one of the things I do is I help authors develop branding so they can get
published. And, you know, and I'm always telling people, well, start a podcast, start writing articles, and everyone thinks, oh, my God, it has to be really polished and professional and perfect. And Chad is actually, he said this to me several years ago, Jennifer, perfect is the enemy of done. Is that what you said? and it's so true. Like, we can just kill ourselves and our creative energy by trying to make something perfect when
really we could just do it and see what happens. And that's what you did? >> Zibby Owens: Yes. Although I will say, and I know the first one I did, because on my bed, I did read an essay I had written as my first one. But for all subsequent author interviews, which the show ended up becoming exclusively about, I was so prepared for each one. So I sort of relentlessly almost studied. Before meeting any author, I would send over
a list of questions. I would have quotes. You know, I viewed it like an assignment, which, like a journalist, by the way. Yeah, I'd love school. I just, like, was like, okay, here's my deadline, and here's my assignment. So it didn't have to be perfect, but I knew I had to be as prepared as possible, and then whatever happened, happened. So I, think that's my approach in general as well, that I can do everything I can, and then the world takes over.
>> Jeniffer: And was there a time when you were like, oh, my God, that was terrible, what am I doing? Or did you always feel like, yeah, I got this? >> Zibby Owens: no, I was not like, I got this. I had no idea what I was doing. I mean, I was sweating so much in the beginning, just like, sweating buckets. I was so nervous, and I wasn't, under any.
I didn't try to make it a certain way because I actually hadn't really listened to very many podcasts so instead of trying to be a great podcast, I tried to just be a great show that I would want to listen to myself, and I just took it from there. So perhaps if I had been a big podcast listener, I would have been more intimidated. But because I just dove into this other world, I felt okay. And by the way, I didn't tell anybody I was doing it.
So I waited a long time until things started getting better and all that before I started screaming it from the rooftops. >> Jeniffer: That is awesome. You know what? I'm still nervous. I was, like, super nervous all day today. When I'm doing an interview, I'm like, oh, my God, I'm interviewing Zibi. I want it to be great. Did I do enough research? So I'm still there and I still sweat, and I'm, like, in a room and you're not even here.
>> Zibby Owens: Oh, my gosh. Well, I do not ever have to be nervous talking to me. I am like, this should be your easiest interview ever. seriously. >> Jeniffer: But I think there's something to that, too. Before you walk on a stage, if you're not nervous, I don't know, I think you almost need that to, like. It's almost like the adrenaline that sort of drives the work in a way. >> Zibby Owens: I have found that the more practice I get, the less that response. That physical response
happens at the beginning, it would happen all the time. And by the beginning, I mean, like the first couple hundred episodes, right? Not just like the first two minutes. Yeah, because now I've done 1800 episodes or something like that. And it used to be anytime I walked on stage, I really was just heart pounding and all of it. And I seem to have extinguished that response. Almost like I'm a lab experiment or
something. Right. If you get enough exposure to it, then it stops being something new and you start feeling comfortable. So now I can walk on a stage, and I still sometimes do get that flutter. But as soon as I'm up there, I'm generally okay. Before, I was not. >> Jeniffer: And you're doing it pretty consistently, so that makes sense. I mean, if you were doing a daily podcast, I don't think you can maintain that nervousness, still go about your day. Right?
Like, you have to get past that. Sure, let's. Okay, let's transition. I really want to talk about your latest book, blank, which I'm holding in my hands. Friends. It's a fantastic cover. it's a great book. Zibi, where did the idea for this book come from? >> Zibby Owens: Well, it actually happened similarly to what happened in blank? Which is, I was at dinner with my family, and my son suggested that I
hand in my next book blank. I had been given the opportunity by my editor to pitch her different novels as my bookends. My memoir was about to come out, and the whole time I was writing bookends, I kept sending my editor all these ideas for novels like lovers leap, about the competitive backgammon industry, and just, like, all these random ideas. And she was always like, no, let's keep thinking. But she was encouraging and said she really wanted to work with me on my first novel and all that. So
the clock was ticking, because she wanted me. She really wanted to acquire the next book before bookends came out, so I could use any media to discuss the next book as well. And I couldn't think of one that she really liked. And I was lamenting this at dinner, and it was my son who said, if you're just staring at the blank screen, hand it in blank. And I thought, oh, my gosh, that is such a good idea. I'll write a novel about a woman who hands her
novel in blank. And then what would happen then? And then the wheels were, you know, it was off and running. >> Jeniffer: That is awesome. You know? And I gotta tell people, the book is also very real, which I would expect nothing less from you, zibby, but it's,
like, super, relatable. It's a fun read, and it hearkens to what it's like to raise kids today, you know, keeping up with what's hip and cool and what it's like to be successful, but still gripped by self doubt to navigate pre menopause and hot
flashes. And I have to tell you, there's this moment in the book where I'm reading it, and I felt like I. I felt like I completely, like, fell into the book when our protagonist, Pippa, who we're going to meet, more of, admits that she stockpiles chocolate covered almonds because they're so hard to find. And I was like, oh, my God. Yes. I searched them out everywhere. Like, and, not to get off topic, but do you think this
is, like, some sort of evil plan on the part of Starbucks? Like, they create this great product, and then they just make them really hard to find? >> Zibby Owens: Well, actually, they have discontinued the chocolate covered almonds. >> Jeniffer: No, they have not. Oh, my God. >> Zibby Owens: Yeah. Ah, they've replaced them with something probably healthier. But they used to have these. They were called salted almond bites, so, ah,
perhaps they weren't even real almonds in there. I don't know what they were, but they were so good. >> Jeniffer: Delicious. >> Zibby Owens: And now they have those lightly dusted ones that are terrible, which are lovely, but they get all over your hands, and so you can't really eat them while you're driving and all of that. >> Jeniffer: I ate them on planes. I would go to the Starbucks in any airport, the first thing I would do, and I would buy all of them.
If they had, like, five packets, I would buy all five. >> Zibby Owens: Yeah. There weren't that many in a packet. >> Jeniffer: And normally they would. Exactly. But, you know, they would last. But normally there'd be, like, one bag of the almonds, and, like, there was another thing they had that just wasn't as good. But anyway, I just. >> Zibby Owens: So, basically, the reason I couldn't find almonds is because you have been taking them all. >> Jeniffer: You took them all. It was all me.
>> Zibby Owens: Unreal. Unreal. >> Jeniffer: The secret salt, folks. >> Zibby Owens: Mystery solved. >> Jeniffer: So, speaking of Pippa, let's, talk about her. She must have been so much fun to write. >> Zibby Owens: She was so much fun to write. And I'm trying to write my next book now, and I'm really longing to write more about Pippa. and my editor didn't really want me to do that because I guess sequels are harder to sell or whatever.
But, yeah, that was so easy for me and so fun because Pippa and I share some things, so it wasn't too much of a stretch of the imagination to write her voice. but, yeah, I had a lot of fun writing, writing her. And, there was a time when I was writing where I felt like just giving up. In fact, I even talked to my agent. I was like, look, I have too much to do. I just can't get this done. I don't even think it's good. I just can't do
it. And I thought about just literally not doing it and being like, thank you so much, but I can't get this done. >> Jeniffer: For blank, you mean. You're talking about blank? Yeah. >> Zibby Owens: No, for blank. I had written, like, just the beginning, and. And then it was thanksgiving, and I was telling my family, an extended family, over thanksgiving, that I was thinking about abandoning this project. And they were like, what? Why would you do that? Well,
what's it about? Let's just see. So I started describing it and all the things that I had coming, and then I was like, actually, this sounds kind of good. So I made the decision right then that if I was going to spend the time the next couple months trying to finish the book, it had to be fun. Like, I had to laugh. I had to enjoy it, because why on earth was I doing this? >> Jeniffer: Right? >> Zibby Owens: So that's how I did it, and that's what made it fun.
>> Jeniffer: Tell me about your writing practice. >> Zibby Owens: Oh, gosh. that is a generous word for what I do. I would not call it a practice. I, don't really have a writing practice because I fit writing in around everything else that I do. I feel like I should discuss my email practice, what I do, or. >> Jeniffer: Like, your email practice is really, really impressive. You always get right back to me. I'm like, how does she do that?
>> Zibby Owens: I'm, like, poised over my keyboard, ten fingers kind of curled. Like I'm. It's like a volley uncle animal. You know? Like pouncing on every email I try. You know, the best days are. I'm like, I have nothing to do. I can just stay on top of my emails. no, but the writing has to fit. I just have to fit it in. There's too much else going on. So my ideal world is I wake up and I can stay in my pajamas, and I can lay on the couch, and
I can write. And I don't have a deadline. I don't have to be anywhere in the afternoon. My kids are with my ex husband. I'm in someplace pretty. I'm feeling inspired. But, you know, all those things don't happen very often, so that is my wish list of writing circumstances. >> Jeniffer: So many of our listeners are writers or, you know, aspiring writers, writers and readers, of course. But I think I feel like that gives people
hope. Like, you can do it. It doesn't matter how busy you are, you have to believe in it. You just have to, as they say, button chair and make it happen. >> Zibby Owens: Yeah. Or just don't even get near the chair. >> Jeniffer: That's great advice. >> Zibby Owens: That's one of the things is for me, my desk and chair and all that, that is work for me. >> Jeniffer: Right? >> Zibby Owens: Like, I'm here, I'm emailing, I'm podcasting. I mean, it's fun. I love what I do so much, but it's still one
mentality. So when I go to write creatively, I have to not be at a desk. >> Jeniffer: Yeah. You know, my husband's always telling me that you should write somewhere else, because I do at the end of the day, and I'm so tired from just, you know, mentally exhausted from working all day. But I really want to write, and it's hard. So I used to, like, go to a coffee shop or somewhere else, so it didn't feel like work to write, but now it's hard to get me to leave my house.
>> Zibby Owens: It's always hard to get me to leave my house. >> Jeniffer: Right? >> Zibby Owens: Yeah. >> Jeniffer: So. Okay, so we love Pippa. There was one scene where she actually, I have so many questions I want to
ask you, but. Okay, so there's one scene where she discovers that her idea may have been taken by someone else, or someone else had a similar idea, and she, on the keyboard, chooses control a for highlighting all of the copy, and then she hits delete, and my heart just about, like, fell through the floor. Oh, my God. I'm like, have you. Do you delete stuff you've written?
>> Zibby Owens: No, I try not to. Well, now I have a shadow document where I put that I call deleted stuff, and I just put everything deleted in there just in case. >> Jeniffer: Just in case. Yeah. You never know. You might want to go back. There's some idea in there. that's really important. >> Zibby Owens: if there's a sentence I will spend, I'm like, wait, I think I wrote something about that in one of my deleted
files. And then I went, like, an hour trying to find the sentence that I could have easily just rewritten. >> Jeniffer: Okay, that is so true. And, you know what I find really crazy is sometimes I'll go ahead and write it, and then I'll go back and find the other thing, because I'm sure it was so much better the first time I wrote it. And they're exactly the same. >> Zibby Owens: Yeah, yeah. I'm like, what does it say that whatever I wrote last time is always
better than this time? Am I constantly declining? >> Jeniffer: We m just self doubt. We have this self doubt, and Pippa has it, too. And it's so endearing for anyone who has aspired to be an author and write a book. I mean, this is just such a great read. and it gives hope. Yeah. And it's a very. It's such a fun read. I know that you were going to write a book. I hope I don't get this wrong. 40 love. How much of that is in this novel? Because that was going to be a memoir, right?
>> Zibby Owens: Yes. Actually, none of that is in this novel. >> Jeniffer: Okay. >> Zibby Owens: That is another project I wrote several times over in all different formats. One is a prose poem. One is a first person present tense, more dramatic. One is a memoir. Some of 40 love ended up in bookends. M. because some of it was really just about my life. but I still think it would be fun to go back and write a fictitious 40 love, but I think so, too.
>> Jeniffer: I see something. I see something in your future, Zibbie Owens. But that book was. I mean, I read something that. That was, like, primarily based on, you know, your past marriage and, you know, finding the love of your life. And it just feels like there's a little of that in blank. >> Zibby Owens: in 40 love and in blank. Well, I try not to write too much about. I definitely don't write about my former marriage, personally, because I have four kids. And
look, I was married and now I'm not. So you can connect the dots. It probably wasn't perfect, right. Or I'd still be married. But I don't think we. I don't feel like I need to go into it with the reader, necessarily. I think that the reader is smart enough to just get it and move on. it was really fun, though, to have blank just make up. Like, well, what is, like, the worst guy? Like, what would I want to happen the least with a guy ever? Like, what would be
so bad? And so I tried to make that up. >> Jeniffer: And, you know what's so cool about Pippa and you is that she never throws him under the bus. Like, she still tries to have, like, a kind, generous, outlook when she's talking to her children about their dad, because that's important. Right. >> Zibby Owens: You know, my parents were divorced. I don't know. Are your parents divorced or anything? I don't know. >> Jeniffer: They did divorce. Yes.
>> Zibby Owens: Yeah. So I had an experience where they did speak about each other. >> Zibby Owens: And I thought that even though I knew why they were doing it, it actually backfired on them. >> Zibby Owens: In my mind. So I vowed not to do that myself. >> Jeniffer: Well, I commend that. I think it's so important that we. I don't know. We have to. That's being selfish. Right. We have to think about the children and how they feel and.
>> Zibby Owens: Well, it's also selfish as well, because, I really think it hurts whoever's badmouthing someone else. I really look bad. >> Jeniffer: Yeah. >> Zibby Owens: Because people will defend their parents despite any flaws at all times, because we love them. We just love our parents generally. So if. Even if I have an issue with one of them, if somebody else speaks badly about a parent, I'm, the first to defend them. So I just think it's not worth
it. Not to say I'm, such an angel, but I always remember how much that truly backfired. >> Jeniffer: Well, this is a life lesson. Don't go around bad mouthing people because you're going to be the one who looks bad. Right. This is just a life lesson, folks. >> Zibby Owens: Yeah, life lesson. Particularly related to your child's other parent.
>> Jeniffer: I want to talk about the Zivi Easter eggs in this book, and there's probably way more that I don't know about, but it was so fun when in the very beginning in the book, she picks up her moms don't have time to read books podcast mug. And I kind of chuckled to myself. And then there's a point where she's driving past, oh, that cute little bookstore on 11th in Montana. And I laughed at that. And then again at the end, there's a
tagline. Your signature. I think it's your signature tagline. Stories are best when shared. Is that a zippy original or a pippa original? >> Zibby Owens: A zippy original. >> Jeniffer: Okay. I wasn't sure. I'm like, and by the way, I got to admit, I have the hat, which I love. >> Zibby Owens: Oh, yay. >> Jeniffer: And I've been to that cute little bookstore on 11th in Montana. I think I have the address. Right? I went from memory. >> Zibby Owens: You do? You do.
>> Jeniffer: So, did I miss any. Are there other Zibi Easter eggs in here? should I just. Should I have not given them away to everyone who's reading? >> Zibby Owens: No, no, it's totally fine. It's totally fine. I'm delighted you noticed. I can't remember if there are others. Those were definitely the biggest ones. >> Jeniffer: That had to have been so much fun. I really got that you had fun writing this book. >> Zibby Owens: I know. I was like, is that allowed?
I just kept wondering, am I allowed to do that? And I just kept waiting for somebody to take it out along the editing process, and no one did. So I'm like, I guess I was allowed. >> Jeniffer: You know what? you may have already read this book. The sentence by Louise Erdrich. >> Zibby Owens: I have not. >> Jeniffer: Oh, my God. You have to read this book. So it is so good. But Louise is a character in her own book, so the protagonist works at Louise's actual bookstore.
So she's, like, mentioned, like, my boss, Louise, and, you know, we went, yeah, it was. I enjoyed it so much because I love her as an author, and I think it's so great that she owns a bookstore, and, like, she never talks favorably or unfavorably about herself, necessarily. She just appears as, like, a side character. And I had never seen anyone else do that until I read blank. >> Zibby Owens: Well, in my next book, I even have this scene, which I'll probably delete,
but not for real. Delete. I mean, put in the deleted file delete. but I do have a scene. that's over. 911. as a backstory type scene. And I actually have my main character meet me. But I don't say that it's me, but it was me, at the time, like what I was doing. So I just described myself. I don't know, I'll probably take it out. >> Jeniffer: You wrote that for you, it might appear. I think that's kind of cool. I think we're going to see a little bit more of that. >> Zibby Owens: Yeah, we'll see.
>> Jeniffer: Okay, I have a hardball question for you. As hardball as we get on the premise. so blank is a book about changing the publishing industry. but blank is also published by Amazon or an Amazon imprint. So boutique bookstores hate Amazon. And yet you have a boutique book shop and a book published by Amazon. So have you gotten any pushback on this and, you know, talk to us about just this whole fact of the matter.
>> Zibby Owens: Yes, I have gotten pushback. a lot of independent bookstores will not take my book or any books written by Amazon published authors. I have managed to get it into quite a few because of my publishing company and personal relationships that I've built up over the last couple of years or begging or whatever. but there are a bunch that won't take it no matter what. I think that is foolish on the part of the indies. I think, obviously I understand that they're upset with Amazon for
ruining their livelihood. I get it. I totally understand that. But for indies to stay afloat, boycotting authors is not the way to go. I mean, I don't believe in any sort of book banning. you know, I think that the people who suffer, if anyone is the author and even possibly the bookseller for the loss of sales, Amazon does not suffer at all. So the point they're making doesn't really land. Right? It's like kicking the shins of a giant, right? Giants m aren't going to know,
but you're probably going to break your own toes. So I, I understand the tense relationship. I do understand. But I think you have to pick yourself up and find a new strategy and market forces are always throwing new competitors in the midst. Right? That is one of the things like, look at Kodak and how they thought they were. Nothing was ever
going to happen to Kodak. I worked on the Kodak account, at my first advertising job and, oh my gosh, the city of Rochester and this big, who could ever take them down? And then you know what, like digital cameras are, they like, you have to adapt you just have to adapt. So I think that's not a strategy I believe in. We carry all sorts of books at our bookstore. I, think that readers don't care who publishes the book necessarily. this, you know, this is the, or notice, or notice. I really don't.
And look, I believe in getting books to readers, and a lot of people use Amazon, and that's not going to change. I also believe in supporting independent bookstores, and I support them a lot. And I support Bing, and I support all sorts of, places I started my own. I mean, I'm a huge fan of the independent bookstore, and I think they have a long and healthy life in front of them. But, you know, I get.
>> Jeniffer: Yeah. well, and what's interesting, too, about blank is that it's commentary on the traditional publishing model and how it's kind of brought, you know, I mean, you pretty much say it flat out. Can you talk to us a little bit more about that, if it's okay? I don't want to spoil the book, obviously. >> Zibby Owens: No, no, this is not book spoiling. This is actually just real life.
And, one of the things I was trying to do with blank is to pull back the curtains a bit on the publishing industry in general, because I entered it as a sort of bright eyed, bushy tailed, as we all do. You know, I didn't know a lot of these things. Some things I was sort of aghast to learn about, and some things I was like, everybody needs to know this. People don't
know this. so some of those things I put in the book, I think that people don't necessarily know that whatever book the publisher picks to be the biggest book is going to be the biggest book. So if you're not the lead title, good luck. Right. You need some major celebrity to pick it up on a plane or something random to happen, to possibly compete with the ones that either have been picked by a giant book club or that your publisher has decided
to invest the most heavily in. And it goes all the way through all the distribution channels down to who you sell the hardest at the sales meeting and then the sales rep with the books in the back of the car and the influence the sales rep has. I mean, it's a whole ecosystem, and a lot of it is relationship based, and it's a very creaky old system. but this is the one that sort of monopolizes the bookstores and all of that as
well. yeah, m. Yeah, I think it doesn't help with discoverability of books and I'm over here, sort of the cheerleader for all authors and really wanting people who do great work to get their work seen and into the hands of readers who might benefit the most from the books. And. And sometimes that happens, but a lot of times it doesn't. A lot of great things are missed. I realize this happens in many industries, movies that people don't end up seeing, songs that don't end up getting
heard. It's a byproduct of a creative field. But I just wanted to see if maybe I could do some tweaks to see if I could help with that. >> Jeniffer: Well, and, I think you're absolutely right. I think people need to know, like, pulling back the curtain that that is paid shelf space. And bestsellers are not necessarily determined by readers. And you go into that in the book, and I want to transition this into your publishing imprint because
you have a model that's a little different than the traditional book model. Can you tell us more about that? >> Zibby Owens: Yeah, I mean, it's funny, I just emailed all of our authors last night because I was having this, I don't know, just moment of nostalgia. Looking back through all these pictures of our authors all hysterically laughing and thinking about the last year and a half of publishing and all this crazy journey that has gone into starting this company and the heart and soul
of why I did it. And the main reason is really to give authors as great an experience as possible. You can't always control market forces. M but you can set your authors up for as much success as possible. If they don't hit, it's not because of a lack of trying on behalf of the publisher. >> Jeniffer: That's unique. I mean, most authors don't realize that when you get a traditional publishing deal, and I'm sorry I interrupted you,
but no, it's fine. Most traditional publishers are not going to put a lot of marketing, if any, it's still expected for the author to market the book. >> Zibby Owens: Yeah. And I will say, the more the author does, the more it helps our efforts. But that's not required. Do you know, like, if m you have two people in a canoe and one person's paddling versus both people paddling, right. You're going to go faster with the two people paddling. I think it's just common sense. So, I don't think it
means that the person rowing the boat is a bad rower. Right. It's just, there's like, somebody else could help and you could go faster. So I always think there's that. but yeah, some publishers. And I don't think this is to the detriment of anybody working in publishing. This is not a personal thing at all, but just structurally, if there's so many books to market and limited time, you try to. Publishers try to take their bets and put all their money on red or whatever. It's a crafts table. So
I just don't think that makes people feel good. And I think that I want the, I mean, I know I want our authors to feel good. I want them to feel supported. I want them to know we're investing in them emotionally, financially. I want them to have a great experience. I want them to have input on their titles and their covers and the interior layouts and the fonts like it's their baby. And I want them to feel that they
have control and take ownership. And one of the things we do, aside from really giving the authors a say, is connecting all the authors together. And we have WhatsApp groups, and we have team retreats and groups touring and all sorts of ways where our authors have become friends and allies and share knowledge and help each other, because why not do that? You know, I think a lot of publishers keep their authors separated, and I'm like, why? You know, are they afraid? Like, what? Why not have
them be, together? So, it's so simple, but it's more philosophical, I guess. you know, we just believe in gathering and connecting and all of that. And, you know, from a tactical standpoint, we do a lot more brand partnerships. We have distribution now in a lot of hotels, and we're doing sort of more creative things to try to get books where they're not competing against 8 million other books, but perhaps the only book somewhere, which
helps set them up for success. we do tons of extra content for every book and trailers and this and that, and, you know, lots of communication and, you know, it's supposed to be fun. >> Jeniffer: You know, it really is. Yeah. >> Zibby Owens: Nobody goes into writing because they're like, oh, this is a sure thing. This is totally a, stable way to make money for the rest of my life. I'll be fine. That's not why people go into writing. They go into writing because they have to. They,
need to write. It's in their heart and soul, and they're often really good at it. People who feel that calling usually have some talent and drive and passion and also are totally anxious and insecure. So, speaking as one myself, the most we can help, the better. The more we can help, the better. >> Jeniffer: Absolutely. You said something that I've found really interesting. So I've been in the publishing industry for 20 years and I don't know if you knew this, but Chad and I have a company
and we help authors build brands and websites. And so I've been speaking at self publishing conferences since the early two thousands and, you know, small, like independent book publishers association, I've been speaking at their conference for years. And what I've always found is that there's so much camaraderie and community in these smaller presses, indie publishers, self publishers, hybrid presses, whereas the traditional publishing model is everyone keeps to themselves, it's all, it's
competitive. And I think that's something that, you know, the model has created. And you said, like, why, why is that? Why can't we all work together? And you're. I think it's changing and I hope it's changing, through conversations like this, I think it's helping, but it's an interesting, it's an interesting thing you touched on there. >> Zibby Owens: Yeah, I mean, that's great that you do that with the self publishing. >> Zibby Owens: You know, I think self publishing is also really
interesting. And I think that if I could have one thing to say about the branding of self published authors is that they should invest more in their cover design. I think that's the main differentiator, 100%. Like, if they could just get better covers. >> Jeniffer: It's so frustrating. >> Zibby Owens: Preaching to the choir here. >> Jeniffer: Well, you know, we started out with designing book covers and websites and we still do that, by the way. We still design book covers. And people
always ask me, you know, what's the number one thing that gets in the way? And I say the authors, because the authors have a vision and their book is their baby, as you mentioned. And so they have these ideas of what it needs to look like. But separating yourself from that and letting the publisher design a good book cover, I think, is the most important thing you can do to make your book successful. And it's so hard for them to do. And, you know, we're book
designers. And people say, you know, what have you designed lately that you're really proud of? And I have a hard time pointing to anything, you know, because we're dealing with, the heart and emotions of someone who has this idea that they understand in their heart, but the public doesn't see it and it's really hard. >> Zibby Owens: Maybe you could get like a group of 100 people to volunteer as like, you know, cover testers and run the covers by the
testers and get some independent feedback. To show the author, look, you know, out of these 100 people, 90. nine liked mine and three liked yours. I'm serious, though. I mean, that's what happens. >> Jeniffer: No, you're right. >> Zibby Owens: We show the covers at sales conference, and sometimes they're like, oh, we all think that will sell more. So I think people. Yes, they want things to look a certain way, but they also want their books to sell well.
>> Jeniffer: And they always come back and say, I wish I'd listened to you. Almost always, you know, I wish I'd listened to you. Because the number one thing that's been holding me back, and bookstores are like, you know, no, I'm not interested. Why? Well, the coverage, you know, you know, looking at comparable titles, does it look like other books on the shelf next to it? The ones that are like it? Right. Is this what. Does it meet audience expectations? as opposed
to. Is it what I like? I had an author the other day say, well, I really want papyrus. And I'm like, absolutely not. We can't use papyrus. And then there's a reason for that. A. It's hard to read, and. But anyway, we're totally getting off track. I loved the COVID for Patty Lynn's book, end credits. And, in fact, nice work. I got to interview Patti at, our last festival, the San Diego Writers Festival, and she's delightful. >> Zibby Owens: Oh, yay. >> Jeniffer: So, nice work. Great book. How do
you, you know, find your authors? How do you choose which book to publish next? >> Zibby Owens: Patti's book came in through an agent, and. And I remember really loving it. So that's how that worked. we get a lot of agented submissions, and, some of the books we're publishing have been authors who have previously been on my podcast. Moms don't have time to read books, and so I knew them and was familiar with
their work. I mean, m that's mostly how, at the beginning, I was telling people, like, oh, my gosh, you should write a book. And that does not work. If someone has not decided to start writing a book on their own, you telling them to write one is a bad call. There are so many people who already have books, so, you know, barking at the wrong tree there. so I learned that lesson, but now it's mostly agented submissions. I'm trying to think if
there's another way. It's mostly through that or recommendation. >> Jeniffer: Yeah. >> Zibby Owens: What's that? >> Jeniffer: Do you accept unsolicited manuscripts? >> Zibby Owens: We do. In fact, we just had a meeting today with an unsolicited manuscript person. who I met at an event, and that was really good. So, yeah, we do. >> Jeniffer: That's hard, because pretty soon you're going to be so inundated. It's like, how do you find the best book for your.
>> Zibby Owens: We are inundated. We are inundated, but we're also very selective. We only do one a month, and we only do contemporary fiction and memoir. That's pretty realistic. We don't do Sci-Fi fantasy. we've done one true psychological suspense. We have a couple of those memoirs, books that make you think and feel. So it's pretty easy to weed out the many submissions that don't meet those criteria, even though we say it everywhere. >> Jeniffer: Right. >> Zibby Owens: and isn't that crazy?
>> Jeniffer: Well, there go all my proposals. Next time, Chad. We can work on it. You're right, though. People don't pay attention to. They're just excited about you as a publisher, and they don't think to look at the submission guidelines. >> Zibby Owens: Yeah, somebody was trying to convince me to publish children's books. They're like, no, no, but this would be really good. And I'm like, right. We don't actually do that. Or, like, a coffee table book. And I'm like,
we don't even have a printer for that. Like, that's not my business. so I think the more appropriate your pitch is for any publisher, the better. And the publishers are not going to change based on your book. You have to sort of get with the program, or find a different publisher. >> Jeniffer: Who is your distributor, if you don't mind me asking? >> Zibby Owens: Oh, I don't mind. Ingram. Two rivers. Ingram. >> Jeniffer: Oh, yeah, of course. Awesome.
was it daunting, starting your own publishing in print? >> Zibby Owens: Yes, it was daunting. And I still did not even know how much I had to do at the beginning. I mean, if I had known, I would have been more daunted. Let me put it that way. >> Jeniffer: It's probably better not to know, right? >> Zibby Owens: Yeah, better not to know. It's a lot. It's hard. It's a lot of work. but I feel like we're in a really good place right now. >> Jeniffer: How many years have you been publishing books?
>> Zibby Owens: Our first book just came out last February in 2023. >> Jeniffer: Oh, okay. >> Zibby Owens: so we've had about 15. We've had 15 books come out. >> Jeniffer: Congratulations. >> Zibby Owens: We started it with Lee Newman, who had started another press before, so I felt like she knew how to get things going. and we partnered early on with a woman named Ann Massetti, who's now our president. Ah. Of Civi media and publisher of Civvie books, who's
amazing. so my strategy all along is to be surrounded by really smart people and to ask lots of questions and defer to people who know what they're doing when I don't or, you know, all that. but it's. Yeah, it has been hard. It has been hard, and it is still hard because it is so hard to sell books. I mean, there are just too many books and not enough time and readers and demand and, especially because people enjoy reading the same things.
So it makes it harder for any book to get a big following. Yeah, it's hard. It's just really hard. But that's why I really like to think of each book sale, each book read as a huge deal and not to get as caught up with the numbers. Right? Oh, I sold 112 books this week. Like, oh, that's it. You know, look, so and so sold a million copies. Well, you know what 112 people think about that? That's like bigger than my high school graduating class. 100 people. How many people are.
It's like a whole airplane is reading the book right now. I mean, it's cool. So I think if you think of the numbers, that's a great analogy. Think about it in a different way. Like, oh, I feel bad. Only a thousand people bought my book. A thousand people. Like, think about that auditorium. You know, they're all sitting there for 8 hours reading your book. That's pretty miraculous. >> Jeniffer: Do book clubs play a huge role or a
big role in how you get books out to readers? I know you have a book club, right? >> Zibby Owens: I do have a book club. >> Jeniffer: Yay. >> Zibby Owens: the big book clubs obviously move the needle more than really anything else. ever since Oprah, the model is still incredibly powerful. I also think micro book clubs are very powerful, too. what you really want is word of mouth. And the other night, I joined a zoom at a book club with eight women who were sitting around
their living room in Scottsdale, Arizona. And I'm like, why not? You know, like, I love that. >> Jeniffer: So they invited you? >> Zibby Owens: Yeah. Well, I offered. I said, if anybody, if any book clubs are reading blank, I'm happy to send you some friendship bracelets and join on Zoom, or in person if I can. And some people took me up on that, and I was like, great, here I am. I'll stay up late for this. because how great
book clubs talk about it. They spread the word, then they tell friends, that's really how books, despite all the other things and TikTok and blah, blah, blah. I mean, word of mouth is the most powerful. I mean, I'm not saying the living room in Scottsdale is more powerful than hitting it big on book talk. I'm not saying that, but I think there's room for everything. >> Jeniffer: Well, I think that's one of the things that makes you so endearing is that you make yourself so accessible
to readers. you answer your emails like, you personally get back to people and you have time for people. And I think it really shows. >> Zibby Owens: Yeah. Someone's like, why do you do that? >> Jeniffer: Are you insane? Yeah, I know. >> Zibby Owens: And I'm like, I mean, I don't sleep that much, I have to say. But, I mean, someone's gonna answer my emails, like, what the heck? >> Jeniffer: Yeah.
>> Zibby Owens: I don't know. I don't know how. I'm, maybe I'm just too controlling or something or neurotic or anxious. >> Jeniffer: It's working. Yeah. >> Zibby Owens: I don't know. Yeah, it's working. >> Jeniffer: You know, there's an author, you may have heard of her, Lisa C. She writes amazing books. And that's really part of her brand is. And she was actually, the reason that I went into author branding is, you know, looking at how she engages with her readers. She answers her
emails. She always shows up for book clubs. She's so generous with her time and, like, genuinely happy that this one reader is interested in her book and cares about her book. And I think that's part of her brand. That's why people keep reading every book she puts out. Plus, she's a damn good writer. So, I
mean, yes, of course. But, yeah, I think that if we can give more to the people who are, you know, like you said, a whole, I love that there's a whole plane reading your book and thanking them. >> Zibby Owens: You know, that's, I think, author branding too. I mean, you are your brand 100%. So, yeah, if you meet someone, like, you're the best representative for your work, so you have to be nice. Like, you know, everyone, anyone who has the wrong idea, I mean,
maybe I should back up. If you're not nice, then just delete all this advice. >> Jeniffer: But, you know, and that's your brand too. Okay, great. >> Zibby Owens: If you are a nice person and want to make sure people know that, that, like, you can't be in a bad mood one day and be really rude to someone. Like, it doesn't take much to destroy someone's impression. And then, do you know what I mean? Like, you have to, you have to protect your own brand at all
costs. Not to be fake, but just, like, if you're having a bad day, just, like, suck it up for a minute and smile at someone who wants to talk about your book. I mean, that's a gift. Every reader is a gift. So, Or don't leave the house. >> Jeniffer: House. You know, that's my model. Yeah, that's what I did. >> Zibby Owens: Back to where we started, not leaving the house. >> Jeniffer: That's a good callback there. What's next for Zivi Owens?
>> Zibby Owens: Oh, man. well, I'm about to go do a live podcast at my bookstore and, moderate an event. I'm continuing on with this crazy zibi verse tour that I've been on, where I've been going to, like, 50 different places in the the United States to meet people, and talk about my book. So this weekend is, I went to Dallas and Denver and Chicago, and I have a bunch more trips coming up, but I'm getting towards the end
of the tour, so that's great. but I'm going to continue doing that and more events over the summer. we have two books coming out from Zibi, books that I've been busy promoting and emailing all about. >> Jeniffer: Tell us what they are. Yeah. >> Zibby Owens: One is called I want you more by Swan Huntley. >> Jeniffer: I love her, by the way. She's one of my. I interviewed her on the premise. She's one of my favorite authors. >> Zibby Owens: Oh, good. She's so funny. >> Jeniffer: She's so great.
>> Zibby Owens: She's such a great voice. so this book is about a ghostwriter who goes to East Hampton for the summer and moves in with her client, who is a celebrity chef. And their relationship ends up taking a turn in a lot of different ways. And, there's sort of a single white female element to it. Meets war of the roses, and cancel culture and love and lust. It's really good. I'm sort of obsessed with this book. And then we also. That's our sort of May June book.
And then in July, we have Pierce oysters by Jocelyn Takax. And that is literary eco fiction about a family of oyster farmers affected by the BP oil spill man, and the ripple of that in their community. So those are both really, really good books. So I'm very busy, with those marketing plans and tours and publicity and all of that. we have a retreat coming, up in September in Palm Springs, for two nights, and I'm busy planning our November 1, which we're debating between a couple
places. my book club is reading, well, we're reading Julia Alvarez's the Cemetery of Lost stories, but we will be reading Annabelle Moynihan's, Summer Romance and Anne Leary's, I've tried being nice, which are both fabulous, trying to go through. We have to be classes for aspiring authors, so definitely check those out as well. My podcast has some great guests coming up. We're doing five episodes all summer long with so many great
authors, all different types of books. I just assembled this giant summer reading list with all these fun categories, many of which are going to be in my bookstore in Santa Monica. and I'm going to sort of unveil that next week. And, I'm working on my own novel again, theoretically, by which I mean I'm spending a lot of time on instagram, but it's supposed to be due at the end of July. And, I don't know, it's just, like, not happening. I do have a 60 page outline,
so it shouldn't be that hard. I just have to write it to know what's gonna happen, but it's still really hard to do. and that book is called overheard, and it's about a bookstore owner who meets, her ex husband's first new serious girlfriend, who turns out to be a big deal movie
star. And when she complains about this to her good friend, and while watching her son's football game, their conversation gets picked up over the livestream for the football game and broadcast to the whole community, and she gets canceled. And the rest of the book is about how she gets back into the good graces of the community with the help of her kids. >> Jeniffer: Aw, that's not autobiographical, is it?
>> Zibby Owens: It is not. However, there was, a football game that I did go to with my ex husband and his fiance and my husband and three of the kids, where we watched another kid play football. And we did get picked up over the livestream, although we didn't say anything bad, so it ended up not being that big a deal. But as soon as it happened, I was like, oh, my God. What did you say? >> Jeniffer: Yeah, right, right.
>> Zibby Owens: What could I have said that would ruin my life? Like, is there anything I could think of? And then I was like, I don't know, but I have to write a book about this. >> Jeniffer: I was at an author's conference, and right after, the instructor went out into the hallway, and he was still miked, and he started complaining about the authors in the audience. No.
And I always think about that. I'm like, oh, my God, if you have nothing nice to say, keep it to yourself, at least, at the very least till you get home, right? >> Zibby Owens: Yes. >> Jeniffer: Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Okay. You do so much. It, like, literally is wildly impressive and a little bit disturbing. It's like you kept going, and then you said, and. And. Well, so I just want to, like, ask you about your childhood, like, when you were a little girl, like, eight years old. Can
you, like, bring us into the world of Zibby Owens? Like, what. What was your empire like then? >> Zibby Owens: I've always been interested in sort of entrepreneurial pursuits. >> Jeniffer: I had a feeling. >> Zibby Owens: I've always been a huge reader, and a writer. So at age eight, I was reading nonstop. I was probably playing some snoopy tennis on my little Casio whatever. I don't know how old you are, but that probably dates me. This is before even game boys or anything.
So I did a little bit of that. but most days I would sit, you know, I'm thinking of myself in the summer with, like, a headband and maybe a shorts and a little polo shirt. Like, reading. Reading on my bed for, like, hours, and, writing. And then I made all these bookmarks, and we're selling them door to door. >> Jeniffer: That's what I was waiting for. I was like, I know it. There's, like, a lemonade stand or a bookmark stand. Even better.
>> Zibby Owens: Yeah. I mean, I made bookmarks and sold them. >> Jeniffer: What was your favorite book? Do you remember? >> Zibby Owens: The book that made me really fall in love with reading was Charlotte's web and how it was the first book where I cried, and I didn't realize books could really make you cry. And so that was one of my favorites. >> Jeniffer: In your acknowledgments, you give credit, to, I'm gonna guess your grandparents, Gadgi and papa. Did I say that right?
Yeah. Tell us a little bit how they, I don't know how they helped to shape, you know, the future writer Zibi. >> Zibby Owens: Oh, that's sweet of you to ask. and by the way, you were super prepared for this interview. You had nothing to worry about. >> Jeniffer: Thank you very much. >> Zibby Owens: Conversation I've had with anybody in the longest time. Gagi was my mom's mom. We were
incredibly close. She was hilarious and loved to write, although she called herself more of a letter to the editor type because she was constantly writing letters to the editor. but then would write me, like, five page letters every week. Yeah, she's like a Irma Baumbach. Just missed, you know, she loved her. She could have been that. but she really believed in my writing and was every time I spoke to her. What are you writing? What are you working on? I'm m like, oh, I'm not doing anything now.
Okay, well, you know, get back to writing. Da da da. And then what are you reading? And that's how we really connected. And, she and my grandfather published this little miniature book of mine when I was nine with my first two short stories. And she's just always been. She was always a huge supporter and believer. And, I like to believe that she is, that she knows what's been going on now because it all kind of happened very suddenly, and most of it since she passed away in 2021.
>> Jeniffer: Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry to hear that. Yeah, I can tell that she was a huge supporter. and we need those people, don't we, as writers? Someone who believes in us and kind of pushes us, even if they're not here anymore. She's still pushing you, isn't she? Well, Zippy, thank you so much for being a champion for authors, for readers, for joining Chad and I here today. This has been so much fun. Thank you.
>> Zibby Owens: Thank you for having me, and thank you for all the time you spent reading and the thoughtful questions and the deep dive into my life, and I really appreciate it. >> Jeniffer: No, it's my pleasure. Yeah, well, you just. You have a very interesting life and such a beautiful, trajectory of what you're doing. And I look forward to seeing more and reading more books and having your authors on the premise they need to be here. >> Zibby Owens: Yes, thank you. That would be amazing.
>> Jeniffer: You can learn more about Zibby on Instagram, ibboans, and on Substack, where she tells it like it is. And I believe it. This has been another episode of the premise. You can visit us [email protected] and subscribe and rate or review the premise wherever you get your podcasts. And also, moms don't have time to read books. Remember to review these podcasts, folks, and subscribe. It really helps to get the
word out and increases our subscriber base. You can also follow me, your host, on Instagram, ennifergrace. And yesterday I put up my very first TikTok video. My handle is, ennifergracethompson. And, that's it until next week. Thank you for listening, and goodbye. >> Zibby Owens: Goodbye.