Tommy Orange - Beyond the Pages: Exploring Identity and Inheritance

Hey, there. I'm Jennifer Thompson, and today we have a special treat for you. I will be doing an interview for Warwicks of La Jolla. Warwick's is one of the oldest bookstores in the nation, and it is fantastic. If you have a chance to go visit, I recommend it. In fact, buy all of their books. Every book they have is good, including this one. All right, let's listen. Tommy Orange is an enrolled member of the Shawn, Cheyenne and Arapahoe Tribes of Oklahoma.

Yeah, yeah, I think I feel like that song has aged well.

Yeah. Right. I listened to it today.

Like, it sounds like a song that could come out, you know, at contemporary times and not like sometimes there's a nineties feel to songs and it's like it just lives. It will always live there, but that song feels like it's still. Yeah. so I was. It was March 2018, and I was. This is the most unromantic place to think of a book, in a way, or it's annoying, maybe, to hear I was signing 5000 books at a warehouse, of wonder of there before. Before it came out.

She does.

yeah, so the title was always wandering stars for me. and I didn't know what mysteries were be uncovered in the, you know, after making that decision and really going for it, all these crazy things came about that had to do with stars that are in the book. and that, you know, I couldn't have known in my conscious mind, how well the title would have fit. A lot of the stuff that I ended up doing, and even the historical piece was not going to be in the novel

That's just pretty crazy. Yeah, it must have just felt like the whole time you're like, oh my God. The words that come to mind is, this is kismet. Like this is supposed to be happening is just unfolding.

I know the novel writing process, has. I had that experience with there, there and with this where things just happen in a way that feels crazy. I mean, they're there. One of the characters pulls spider, legs out of his leg. and this isn't kismet, but it's just a weird. The novel being a porous process thing, because I pulled spider legs out of my own leg, in a west Oakland target bathroom, the exact same as the

Maybe it's grotesque, I don't know. I, think it's kind of cool. I happen to love spiders, but I definitely don't want them inside of me.

The lakes were pretty big. It was like this long. There was what?

Oh, my God, that's crazy. Yeah. How does that happen?

there was, there was no explanation online. You know, I scoured the Internet just like the character, ended up calling my dad because I thought it could be a cheyenne thing. and he told me he thought I got witched. And I was like, well, what do I do? And he was like, I'll pray for you. And that was, that was all of it. So I was like, I don't, I don't want this. I'm going to put it in fiction where it belongs.

I feel like truth, is always stranger than fiction. And maybe that's why your books, read so, so easily, because so much of it just feels real. I mean, I found out that, you know, you're a musician, and as I'm reading it in the music, and your writing has a musicality to it. And I have heard you talk about this in other interviews. Talk to me about how music helps you write and how I think you even talked about reading it aloud. Like, listening for the musicality. Can you speak to that?

Yeah. well, I listen to music, like, 95% of the time that I'm writing, and the other 5%, I'm not listening to music because I'm reading out loud and I'm listening to myself, read it. yeah, so I was a musician before I was a writer. Went, to school for sound engineering. I just slipped in the back door of literature somehow, because you were.

Supposed to, you didn't have a choice bombing.

And I think I was doing a lot of this instinctually, this listening to the sound of sentences. in the editing process, I didn't even really verbalize it until I started talking about writing when touring for they're there and like, for the first time, talking about the process. so it's a huge part, both listening to music while writing, but also listening to the sonic, you know, the sonics of the sentences as a way to figure out how far along the sentences are or how far in I am on a

I wanted to ask you about your writing practice and what that looks like for you.

it's different, all the time. I don't have a super, steady routine. And this, you know, I never did. I wrote it initially, like, started writing there, there, at five and six in the morning before going to work. And, eventually did a bunch of traveling for the job I had before I quit to be an author, which was a digital

Nice. Nice. One of the things I wanted to talk about was the narration style in this book. And what's fascinating to me is I didn't even realize that you were switching up the narration until almost toward the end. And then I was starting a chapter and I realized I didn't know who was speaking. And then I looked at the title of the chapter again and normally when people switch voice, not just narration style, but voice, they'll have the name of the person at the top of the chapter

Well, I was always trying to write a different book than there, there. Even though it's deeply connected to there there. I didn't want to do the same thing. And in some ways I feel like titling the chapters. The first and last name of the characters may be a little bit lazy or so. When it came to thinking about chapter titles, it was.

It did.

It totally did. Somewhere along the way, I decided that's the way I wanted to do the chapter titles. But I always had shifting, Narration, character and pov. Intense. because that's part of the way I like to revise. It allows me to keep working. When I don't feel like I can. I'll just change a character's pov or the tents and see what it does. And I may end up changing it back, but it really allows me to keep going back to the work. Because I can do something

Yeah. Did you ever feel like giving up on wandering stars?

Yeah. I mean, I think the whole endeavor to write it has everything to do with not giving up. And I think with a lot. With a lot of creation. I think the other side of the coin for creatives is destruction. And, I think destruction, the tools of destruction are like doubt. And that's why block and paralyzation happens a lot with writers and with other creative people. So it's a constant. Like, am what I doing? Is what I'm doing worth anybody else's time? Is it worth my time? Is the writing

So true. So true. And I know you give a lot of credit to your editor, Jordan. I assume she is still your editor for this third book.

Yes. Yeah. I love Jordan and working with her and, the way that she edits is, really not intrusive. on a sentence level, she's really, like, big picture visionary, and gives me things to think about rather than this or that needs to change definitively. She directs me toward a greater vision of what I've already tried to envision.

That's pretty incredible. Wow. Yeah, that's pretty incredible. Your writing has, To me, it feels like poetry. Even the hardest parts to read still come out in this very beautiful prose, and it does have this musicality to it. There's something, that I wanted you to read, and I asked you earlier to read it. So, I'm not hitting you up. Do this thing. But the thing about this writing that I think is so amazing, and I think why people love you so much is you take incredibly

So thank you. Thank you.

Let's read this for our listeners.

So I have to share this, sort of brag because it was like an insane moment for me. I was sharing a stage with Louise Erdrich on this tour for wandering stars.

Congratulations on that. She's amazing.

I can't remember if she asked me this before or on stage, but I think it was before she said she asked if. So the character, the part that I'm reading, the character is going through chemotherapy and, has cancer. And maybe that's a tiny spoiler, but she said you must have been really close to somebody, who's gone through this, because she had gone through it. And she said the way that I wrote it was perfect. Like, perfectly fit the feeling.

Wow.

It was one thing to be grateful for the ancestors and another thing to know them on the page. I always felt like we didn't do good enough. That our family line was in some way weak and yes, weakened by the effects of history, colonization, historical trauma, but also not strong enough to pass down the traditions or language successfully because we lacked something. I hadn't considered everything that had happened, how far back it had been happening to us. We come from

So m powerful. Yeah. I mean, it's an example, but it happens over and over and over again in your book, and you talk about really hard things and these hard lives, and I'm thinking about all of the research. I mean, seven generations, that's a lot. So I'd like to

So, yeah, it's a mix of research and I'd never written historical fiction before, so that was a RealLy new thing. so the book opens with, a, ah, young man escaping, from the sand creek massacre. And this part was not reseaRch. This was a story that my dad, that I grew up my dad telling this story, and he'd heard it from his grandmother and great grandmothers, and this story told from people that were pretty close to

Not at all. Oh, yeah.

Okay, good.

You're good.

My, my son's rolling something upstairs.

He's rolleRblading. I know it.

but for the. For the. The prison castle at Fort Marion part, you know, I read a couple books for that. I read a couple books about Pratt and Carlisle. so all the history stuff, I found that even though I don't include a ton of, like, facts from history or there's not a ton of research you'll find in the book, I needed. I found that I needed to, like, really immerse myself in just people talking about that time period or writing about people from that time period to convince myself

Totally. That's really well said. Well, and that actually leads perfectly to my next question. So, Sean, one of our characters, and, we don't want spoilers. We gotta be careful. But there's something that's happening with the character that I wanted to ask you about. You know, he finds out that he has native. He's part native, and he's adopted. So he didn't know his history. He was told he was italian. And he's sort of struggling with, like, how much

Yeah. well, you know, in the case of Sean, I don't know where Shawn came from. And this is part of what I love about writing fiction is that, I can become convinced that a character has enough layers to feel real to me, and I just have to uncover them. and Sean, I wanted to write a character like Sean because Oakland is such a diverse place. and I'd also covered a certain gritty part of Oakland, east Oakland, deep east

It reads like it. And I heard in an interview once that someone asked you if you were native. You said yes. And then they asked you, yeah, but how much? And I just was horrified, frankly. And I imagine, that came out into the characters because that's what I see Sean is experiencing. Like, he feels he doesn't fit in either world, and he's not sure what to do with that.

Yeah. Recently, this year, I was at, a university for a speaking event, and, this old white guy stood up in the crowd during the q and a, and he said, from where I sit up here, and this isn't the first time this feeling, this type of thing has happened. He said, you look white to me. So when did you decide that you wanted to be a Native American? Like, I made a decision along the way that I'm going to identify a certain way, as opposed to, like, that's who I

And I hope that changes. I really do. we have to demand it, though. We have to demand change because it's not going to. It's just not going to happen. Rewriting history to have more truths, I hope that's in our future. but I think, you know, writing such an honest couple of books that you've written is a big start. And so even though that may not be your intention. It's what's happening. So here.

I mean, I think I love that about fiction. yeah. What it can sort of secretly do to the hearts and minds of people without, like, be the word.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. Without, like, saying, like, I'm here to. I'm here to say this and to have it happen in story.

Well, it's kind of like what you said about Jordan and how her editing style, it's like, it just makes you think. It's not telling you how to think. It's just giving you something to chew on. Something. Something to think about that maybe you can take with you and change your behavior and change how you look at the world and how you treat others. I would like to think, I watched a lot of your interviews, and we're all asking you the same questions. We all want to know the same things.

I mean, I think with wandering stars, there's a couple of wild, historical things that are real that I feel like people just read through it and don't think about it. But there's two things that I think about. so Jude Starr, that's the first character we meet in wandering stars. He is a prisoner of war at a prison castle. And, he becomes a bread maker. And this is the real star. Became a bread maker and eventually a chief of police. These are real things.

Yeah.

And this is a time where the beginning of assimilation. So the boarding schools were institutions of assimilation. And you have this real thing that happened where you're being covered with white, a white cast, while you're trying to be assimilated. It's just like the crazy fact that I don't feel like one person has noticed that this. I don't know if they're thinking it's just fiction, and so therefore, not as interesting. but it really

Well, and as an interviewer too, happens to be a white woman, I'm very conscientious of the optics. And asking questions about a history that I see is completely unacceptable. And I see a future that's going to have the same stuff because we're not demanding change, and we're not looking.

I don't always love the history repeats itself if you don't look at it kind of thing, because I don't think, well, you know, not enough people do look at it. But I, think, it's just something that. It feels so unrealistic to imagine that enough Americans are going to want to think about what this country is and what it came from for it to be meaningfully changed for the future. This is going to sound super pessimistic, but it's, But I will say they're there has, been taught in like so many

Listen, when I think of. They're there. I love that book because of the character development, because of these people who I come to know in this inner city life that I don't know. I grew up in the country, actually. And that's why that book is so important. It's the character development, it's the writing. It's what's possible. And there's a certain hope in it, too, in your writing. I think, that

It's not. And it's not related to the first two books at all.

Okay. Okay.

it's contemporary, and it's in Oakland and there are fewer characters. I think there's just going to be three characters.

Oh, my gosh. Does that feel harder? A little bit?

M. No, it feel. It feels like a relief.

Okay.

It felt like I have the whole thing structurally already mapped out. And the mapping, when you have more people is much harder to get at. So I'm hoping to finish this one a lot faster. It's going to be a shorter book. and I'm excited about it. I don't know how much I can say about it yet.

I know you can't, so I won't ask you to, but I'm trying.

To finish it this summer, a draft anyway that Jordan will give me. helpful, but hard to digest notes about, I'm sure. and I'm also, working with a studio on an original screenplay that, is moving along as well. So that's exciting, too. And also different, the totally different tone and, still native people. and thinking about identity and stuff like that.

Nice. Yeah, because, ah, I think your books are universal, too. I just want to say it's about the immigrant experience is universal, and there's so much in it that's so layered and so complex and yet easy to read. So I just want to put that out there that I'm so glad you became a writer and that I've had the pleasure of interviewing you here today. I do have one final question. We'll bring Julie back in to join us.

Yeah.

what about your music? Are you still pursuing music at all?

So I don't get to play as much as I would like right now, but I.

You have a two year old, so that makes sense.

Yeah. M but I played a lot during the pandemic. and, so I've sort of quietly, done this, and I haven't. This is why it's. This is making it less quiet. But I have posted songs that, are on Spotify and itunes under the name Orville Redfeather that are sort of like, as if he recorded them along the way to give kind of, like, a real dimension to his

Okay.

Yeah. So you can check those out, on iTunes, Spotify, or Soundcloud. And there's a few others on Soundcloud than there are on the others. so I am. But, I always will. Music is very personal to me, and I probably won't be doing very much public music stuff. but I'll always be doing it for myself.

That's awesome. And since Julie's not here, I do have another question.

Oh, wait a minute.

No, I want to know. I'm, like, worried about blue. I want to know that she's okay.

So blue. And a slew of characters from there, I definitely wrote them in. And, Jordan, very kindly and gently guided me away from them. Let's just say, And I know I ultimately agreed with her. That's the whole thing is, like, she wanted to focus on the family and have it be tight, and I wanted that, too, in the end. So I don't. You know, there may be something in the future that includes certain characters that I've,

Short story.

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what that looks like. there's definitely a ton. I had to write, like, three or four books to get to the one book in both cases. So there's a lot of material that I haven't touched that I, imagine I would revisit if I'm, like, in a dry spell, of some kind.

Yeah. Thank you, Tommy. I've really appreciated your time, and thank.

You so much for all of your generous, questions that had really nice compliments. Embedded in them. I appreciate that.

It was a great conversation, and we have got some great questions from the audience. So we've still got a lot of people watching with us. So, we'll get to as many of them as we can here. Okay, Tommy, here's one. Would you say your writing style is less conventional now, this one came in early, so you might have already touched a little bit on this. Would you say your writing style is less conventional in the second novel? If so, why? Is it a function of the context?

I think the second novel is more introspective and interior. and I think there's sort of like a. When you tell the reader at the beginning of the book that there's 3d printed guns and a robbery and everyone's going to this powwow, it sets a narrative engine going that it's not always, even in the writing, not always something that I'm doing, but it gives the reader this little engine that gets them moving through the book faster sometimes. Like I said, it's not even me doing

the next one coming in is, do you think it's important to, you did a little bit of the second part of this question, but I'm still gonna throw it out. do you think it's important to read there, there before reading wandering stars? And how would you compare the two books?

I don't, I don't think that, it's necessary. And I, working with my editor there was very much like, let's make this standalone and not, rewrite stuff and not make the reader need to know too much. And, I liked that advice and I followed it and so, no, you don't need to have read there, there. I think it would enrich the text.

I did that.

Oh, did you?

I totally did that. I was reading wandering stars and then when I got to, it's not even, it's like a third of the way. And I, all of a sudden I'm like, wait a minute, I know these names. This is so familiar. And then I was like, oh my God. Because I didn't know, I didn't, I hadn't paid enough attention to know that it was, had the same character. So it was a total surprise. So, yeah, then I went and read there, there. And back to the, did you like.

The experience of doing the.

Loved it and I'm so glad I did it. And no, to answer his question, you do not have to read there, there to read wandering stars is absolutely standalone, but it's does enrich the text 100%. And I'm, so I was like, I don't know, I was kind of excited that I did it that way because I loved there, there so much too that I got to read it again. So that was cool.

Yeah. So I think it'd be super cool if one day it's one book, I just have to come up with the right title for it.

Maybe there's a song out there.

I know it's.

Beth Gibbons is, I think she's about to go on tour, and my publicist got in touch with her people and sent her a copy. So maybe a future song of hers because she's still writing music.

There you go. So you always throw that stuff out there in the universe. All right, we got time for a couple more here. So just, So Angelica is asking, what inspired you to write a novel? And was this the only genre or format or choice?

so, you know, the beginning of my writing, I was doing, like, pretty unconsciously. I was in sound engineering school, and, I only, like, consciously remembered it much later. I was writing, like, prose, poetry stuff while I was listening to lectures about sound. and, luckily, there's no trace. There's no evidence of that. and then the years in, sort of, like, trying to find my writing voice, there was a lot of short stories and, a lot of experimental stuff that, it was all

okay. Robin and Adrienne, I'm so glad you asked this question, because this is what I've been wanting to ask, too. So I'm going to combine these two a little bit. So Robin would love to know the books and authors that you're reading now or those that have deeply affected you. And Adrienne commented that she sees a lot of books. So who do you love reading?

So, I love reading contemporary fiction. I have major holes in my classics department. I haven't read that many of the classics, because when I started reading, I completely did it on my own terms. I was working at a used bookstore and would just read whatever like I wanted to. so I read a lot of work in translation, a lot of south american literature. you know, like, when I first got into reading, borges and

Such a good book.

So we're dear friends and we trade pages still, and actually, next Friday, we're gonna trade pages for our next books again. so, you know, Toni Morrison was really huge, for wandering stars. I hadn't read, any Toni Morrison before they were there. And, I read everything while I was writing wandering stars. And, she's just one of the greatest fiction writers we've ever had. but, you know, books this year, like, I'm just finishing knife by Salman Rushdie, which is

Oh, that's cool.

Nam Lee just put out a poetry collection called 36 ways of writing a vietnamese poem. he's an australian vietnamese writer, but he has a book, a short story collection called the boat that came out in 2008, which is incredible. Like, one of the best short story collections I've ever read. and then, calling for a blanket dance was a really important book in conversation with wandering stars while I was reading or while I was writing wandering stars, that, was. Was an important book for me.

Yeah, I want to meet with you, like, every three months. And you can keep doing this.

Exactly. You need to write one of those. Like, just tell us what you're reading.

Your book list?

Yeah, tell us your book list, because it's.

You should totally do that. I know you're on social.

No, I'm really not on social.

Oh, you're not? Okay, well, let's, Yeah, I'll give you my email address. I'll be on social for you.

Maybe we could do that. You send it to Warwicks and go, this is what.

There you go. Tommy Orange's booklet.

Tommy Orange's booklets via Warwick's.

Yeah.

There you go. That's awesome.

Tommy, this was an amazing conversation. Thank you for your generous time and sharing your wonderful books with us and absolutely cannot wait. I was telling Tommy in the green room I had the honor and privilege of meeting him even prior to there. There being published, and we all knew it was going to be something special when we read it years ago, and it is just continuing to be. And wandering stars is amazing. And, cannot wait for your next one.

That would be awesome.

Thank you so much, Jennifer. That was such a lovely conversation.

Great conversation. Thank you, Jennifer, for your.

Have fun at the Daniel Lenoir concert.

I will. Thank you.

All right, goodbye, everybody.

Bye.

M.