Swan Huntley - Author - I Want You More and You're Grounded: An Anti-Self-Help Book to Calm You the F*ck Down

Hello, and welcome back to the premise. I'm Jennifer Thompson.

I'm Chad Thompson.

Hello, Chad. Hello. I am super excited about today's conversation.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah. We're talking to Swan Huntley, who we interviewed a couple seasons back, when we talked about her book getting clean with Stevie Green. And today we are going to talk about her latest novel, I want you more, which is fantastic. I cannot wait for all of you to read it. Swan, thank you so much for coming back to talk with us, and welcome to the premise.

Jennifer Thompson. I'm delighted to be here. Yay.

So I'm going to read your bio for our listeners who are not aware of how badass you are. Swan Huntley's novels include I want you more, getting clean with Stevie Green, the goddesses, and we could be beautiful. She's also the writer illustrator of the darkly humorous the bad mood book, and you're grounded, an anti self help book to calm you the fuck down. Swan earned an MFA at Columbia University and has received fellowships from McDowell and Yotto. She

Thank you, Jennifer. I'm delighted to be here.

Back again. So let's start with a short description. Tell our readers or listeners and our readers what this book is about.

I want you more is about a ghostwriter who goes to the home of a celebrity chef to write her memoir. They fall for each other. Things turn dangerous.

That's the best description. The best, I guess, elevator pitch ever. Things turn dangerous, and, boy, do they. I guess it's about losing yourself, isn't it?

It is very much about losing yourself, yeah. I was thinking about this as one huge, very dramatized metaphor, for all the bad relationships that I've been in. So taking the feelings of those relationships and then externalizing them to the highest degree, I think what happens when you fall for somebody is that you kind of fall into them. You sort of lose yourself. The lines become blurred. And so, again, I'm exploring that in a very big way.

And so zara Pine, our main character, our heroine, if you will, she does. She loses herself and kind of starts to become this other woman who she's, I don't want to give too much away, but she starts out, like, really not into this job, this ghost writing job, but falls pretty heavy pretty quickly. bring us through this process for you. I guess I have a couple different questions about it. Like a. Let's start with this. Where did this idea come from?

So, the idea was sparked when I was working as a ghostwriter, writing the memoirs of a real housewife of New York City. And during this process, she said to me, and I quote in her voice, you come into my manor October 21. And I thought, I would rather sleep in a box. And, thank you. That's a very good idea for a novel. You know what would have happened if I had gone? This woman's manner.

Oh, wow. So you didn't go, you said, no, thank you.

It was the height of the pandemic, and she wanted me to go and observe her do her photo shoot for the COVID of her book, which I didn't really feel was necessary.

Totally. Yeah. Very intrusive. Wow, that is a brilliant idea for a book. And it really is kind of a manor, isn't it, in the East Hamptons, where she goes to stay with, this. This celebrity chef.

Yeah, it's a sprawling estate, we can say. And I spent a couple weeks in the Hamptons, and, you know, I think with all of my work, I'm interested in the seedy underbelly of beautiful things. I grew up in a very beautiful place. I grew up in La Jolla, California, which is kind of East Hampton E. And everything looks really good, and you sort of. It's easy to trick yourself into believing that that means that things

Yeah. Is that how you live your life? Like, everywhere you go, you're, like, trying to see behind the closed door, like, hm. What's going on in there? What kind of stories can I manifest, behind those doors?

Totally. And anything that seems too shiny, I don't trust, like, people who are smiling all the time and say that they had perfect childhoods. I'm like, alarms alarm m. No, I do not buy this at all.

Same, same, we have a community here in San Diego, and I'm not going to mention the community, because I'm just not going to do it. But when I go there, I get these, like, creepy weeby jeebie feelings. Like, these lawns are too perfect. Like, there's no children playing ball, there's no trash. And it kind of freaks me out. It gives me this, like, I don't know, danger feeling. I don't know what it is, but yeah, yeah.

Yeah. It's, like, overly sterilized, overly perfect. Doesn't seem to reflect the real human.

Experience, the reality, exactly. And that's really well put. It's not the real human experience. So back to Zara Pine. I gotta ask you about her name, because, a, it feels like Zara is pining for things in this novel. Was that.

Well, yeah, that's intentional. So it's actually Zara pines. And I did that because that's a full sentence.

Zara does pine. She does.

Yeah.

So what a great name too. Where does the name Zara come from?

My sister's name is Zara. And when I told her I was naming the main character of my book Zara, she said, dude, don't do that. Everyone's gonna steal my name. And I was like, girl, it's a store. Like, everybody knows about your name now.

I'm actually surprised it's not totally. It's a great name. So your sister. Okay, so Swan and Zara, what are the other fabulous names in your family?

There are four of us. The order. In order, it goes swan, Flannery, who's a redhead? Nobody else is a redhead.

That's crazy.

Yeah. And Fletcher is the boy.

Okay. Wow. Yeah. Your parents like cool names. What are your parents like? I want to know more.

Great question. my parents really both have main character energy. They are not, like, background character energy people. They're both very, eccentric, really. People who are really living in their own unique ways, not lemming people. my dad is dead now, but I remember asking him, he bought this bright pink phone case, and I was like, dad, why is your phone case, like, bright pink and purple? And he was like, so I could see it better. You know, he was like,

Well, clearly you get that from your mother, because you are a born storyteller, it seems to me.

Thank you. Thank you very much. Yeah. My brother Fletcher is also a writer, I should say, and is, also writing a memoir, which I'm now doing too, which we can talk about later.

But, yeah, there are two of us now. That would be fascinating if you both came out with memoirs at the same time. Dueling memoirs. Which one is the most accurate? Especially if they have different viewpoints on what happened in your childhood. I think that could be a really interesting study. Frankly.

I would do it.

Really? Wait, who are the wolf brothers?

Tobias Wolf and his brother, who is now blanking on.

You know, I think you're right. Oh, my God.

They have books in La Jolla. Like, they also have, like, a history in La Jolla. So it's funny, but my memoir actually comes out, and I'm not sure yet when Fletcher's comes out.

M are m you gonna compare notes and read each other's before they're published?

I don't know.

Maybe. Ted, you were gonna say something to it.

Oh, I was thinking you could do it like, a McSweeney sort of thing, where they take, one person's memoir is one side of the book, and then you flip it over upside down, and on the back is the brother's memoir. So it's all in the same.

That's actually brilliant. That's a really good idea. Thank you. McSweeney. The Tobias Wolf memoir, his. The coming of age, his young childhood, because I know he's written several memoirs. I can't remember the name of it right now. It's one word. Brilliant. One of the best memoirs I've ever read.

Yeah.

So good. Well, I look forward to reading your memoir, but for now, let's get back to Zara pining. So did you know the ending to this book when you first started writing it, or was it a surprise to you?

You know, I knew that what is revealed in the ending was, to some degree, part of Zara's character the whole time. And I knew that she was presenting, a story that wasn't completely true. I think what we learned about her in the end is something that a lot of people have inside of them, and a lot of people are trying to

You know, I got that sense when I was reading this book. I just imagined you having so much fun with this book. And I thought to myself, myself, it's like it is getting bigger and almost a little bit more. It's not ridiculous. That's not the right word. It's bigger in a really fun way, but the characters are a little bit ridiculous. But also, I can totally see this happening.

Yeah. Thank you. And, yes, I was having so much fun writing it. You know, I think to me, I have a lot of writer friends who are like, oh, no, I have to write the book. And I'm thinking, dude, this was the goal. Like, we're living the dream. This is it. This is what our little self wanted. And we started doing this because it was fun. So, you know, of course, like, it's an arduous, it's a long process, but it's also so fun to lose yourself in a fake world and then to have other

Very cool. Yeah, absolutely. How often do you write?

I. I mean, I write compulsively and have really, since I was nine and my mom gave me my first journal, I have recorded everything. I mean, not everything, but I've recorded so much of my life, and I think that. That, you know, has informed my memory. It's like I'm choosing what my. What to remember as I write it, and I'm m also just practicing, you know, writing stories. how often do I work on, you know, books, larger projects? I like to work in a really concentrated way, so, ideally,

Wow. Wow.

That's my magic number. But that's, like, again, a very monkish. This is all I'm doing. And, you know, a reason I do that is because I think that starting energy is a particular type of energy. It's not like any other energy. And I think when you feel that excitement or when I do, I want to take it as far as I can. And also, it's just a lot to remember. There's a lot of stuff in a novel, so I feel like if I step away from it and then I come back, I'm wasting two weeks to remember what I wrote.

Absolutely. That's so true and awesome that you can just sit down and bust it out. Seven weeks feels pretty incredible to me. That feels like, what, 8 hours a day or.

8 hours a day or. I don't know. I don't really. I'm, like, so regimented anyway that I don't really think about it doing a.

Time thing for me.

but I just do it until I feel like I've honestly done enough work.

That's awesome. Well, and you're coming out with another book on June 11. we mentioned it in the bio, but you're grounded. An anti self help book to calm you the fuck down. So tell us about this book. Yeah.

I'm so excited about this book. So, this is an interactive journal style book. It features me as a bird stick person. And every time I show this stick person to somebody, they're like, oh, yeah, that's you. It's funny because for a while, I was like, how should I depict myself? Should I be a swan? That seems like too on the nose. So I just call this my birdie self. And, my birdie self takes you through some ideas about how to get grounded in a way that's not cloying. I love self

right.

It's more fun and more rewarding to do many different things.

I can see that. I love that you are so dedicated to your writing, and I think the word dedicated is kind of perfect when describing you. I've listened to a couple interviews, and I remember hearing one where you talked about your journey to getting published, being dedicated to make that happen. Can you tell us that story?

Of course.

You're like, which story? Okay.

no, I think this is, you know, a good story that I hope is helpful to anybody who. Who is writing. It's really about, you know, trusting yourself and, and, that it's. It's really about persistence. Talent is like a nice icing on the cake, but it's not the cake. Like, this is about persistence. So I have always wanted to be a writer. I, you know, I have been confused about many other things in my life, but it was always clear to me I was going to be a writer, and

I don't think I ever heard, but.

At that time, the publishing industry seemed so opaque and huge and overwhelming. Now, I know that it's like four people who all know each other. but I sent the book out, and everybody said the same thing, which was, wow, you're a really good writer, but nothing happens in this book. And I was like, oh, my God, is that true? Nothing else? Whoa. Okay. So after I got over that, I wrote an entirely new book. Sent it out. and all the agents said, yeah, you're a really

I'm ready.

He basically barely remembered who I was. He was like, what? Who are you? No, like. And I was like, wow, okay, this is a good lesson. You know, it's so funny, these lessons that we all know, but then we have to learn them ourselves. It's actually, like, incredibly annoying. I often think about how everything I know I learned in kindergarten, and now I'm just, like, relearning it.

Right?

Yeah. You know, don't trust other people's opinions. One of the first things that my first workshop teacher in grad school said was, you need to be 90% sure of what you're doing, and the other 10%, you need to be really, really open to being wrong, but you need to be 90% sure, because otherwise you're just like, you know, a sailboat with no sail. You're just going to get thrashed around.

Right.

so, yeah, I quit that job, and then I went and wrote we could be beautiful. First at a residency called Ragdale in Chicago, where it was so cold, I went jogging one day and almost lost my thumb. And then the second half of the book I wrote in Hawaii where my dad lived, and where I've done a lot of writing, an adult and everything. And I was like, things are going to happen in this book, I think I titled the document things are going to happen.

Like, wow.

I was like, all right, what's happening? Where's the forward momentum, you know? And I started thinking about it from the point of view of the reader. Like, how do you get the person to turn the page? How do you create suspense? And I think a lot of people might hear that and think, oh, well, that's just, you know, commercial. and, like, trying to be too commercial. But it's, to me, it's so fun to try to create suspense, to figure out how much information dole out at what time, what

Absolutely. You know, I think of it cinematically too. Like, when I was reading I want you more, all I could do is visualize this, like, gorgeous estate in the Hamptons and these beautiful women, these characters who were like, I just felt like it was unfolding in front of me so vividly. Do you try and imagine it as if it's on a movie screen when you write?

I mean, I definitely imagine it visually of. Course. and, you know, since moving to LA, I'm writing scripts like everybody else, so.

Oh, really? Yeah, yeah.

Pointed out to me that it's actually low production cost movie or tv series, so I hadn't really thought of that, but, yeah, that's a plus.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'm always thinking in terms of images, you know.

Yeah. Whatever happened to it's going to be a beautiful day? Did you just totally scrap it or did pieces of those characters end up in your other books?

That's a really good question. I mean, I think I've kind of, it's funny, I wrote a draft of what would have been my third novel, and that was similar to, it's going to be a beautiful day in that it was about somebody who was overly optimistic. and I guess that theme sort of bled into Stevie Green. So, like, yes, kind of, but not directly.

Yeah, yeah. What would you say was the most fun about writing? I want you more.

Ooh. I mean, personally, it always feels great to metabolize my pain into art. Like, I don't know what I would be doing if I were an accountant or something. I think I would have to, like, be a kickboxer or, I don't know, figure out some other outlet. And then from a craft perspective, as I just said, it's just, a blast to be thinking about. Okay, where am I going to end this chapter? How is that going to make the reader keep reading? What am I going to tell them now? when will this reveal come?

I felt this crazy amount of tension from page one, and I kept thinking about that as I was reading. Like, I had this sense of, like, oh, shit, what's gonna happen? Right? Like, there was tension in the writing even though there was nothing tense happening. Right. And I'm just curious if when you're writing, do you purposely try and imbue that into your writing, or do you come back later and see it and then enhance it? Like, what's. What's that like for you?

Oh, that's interesting. I don't know that I really thought, okay, there needs to be tension. I. But, like, I think there's a sense of mystery, you know?

Right.

That's perfect. Yeah?

Mm

Like, obviously.

Well, I. Absolutely.

Oh, sorry.

Oh, no, no, I'm sorry. Go ahead.

this book starts with, the death of Zara's father, which is really based on my own dad's death. But I did that because I wanted her to be extra vulnerable. So we start with that, and then we get her meeting with Jane Bailey at a time when she's incredibly lost. She's like a soup looking for a container. I don't remember if I kept that line in there or not, but, we know you did.

You did? Yeah.

Oh, good. Okay.

Yeah.

Oh, and you remembered it.

That's nice. Yeah, no, I totally did. I was like, oh, I love that. There's so many sayings that I, you know, in little phrases that I wanted to underline that were so great. I mean, you're just a fantastic writer, swan. I mean, there's no doubt. But also, like, you create these exciting experiences for your reader, and that's, you know, it is an escape, and that's fucking awesome. So good on you.

Thank you. Thanks so much.

You know what else I want to talk about is eavesdropping. Wait, what?

Yeah. That is my favorite activity, and my favorite place to eavesdrop is on the beach, because you can be really close to other people, and they don't even think that you're eavesdropping on them. And you can also, like, peep over at them. I mean, you can just, like, basically baldly stare at people, like they're saying at the beach. Yeah. And I say you wear, like.

Big hat.

Wear what?

Oh, I'm imagining you wearing, like, a big hat and sunglasses, or you just boldly do this without any of that.

I mean, I'm a big fan of a hat. I like a, ah, hat. I'm in restoration mode now that I'm 41. My mom is really, really, really into sunscreen, so we're all, like, completely paranoid. I used to go to school when I was a little kid, and people would be like, who smells like suntan lotion? And I'd be like, oh, it's me. but I grew up going to Hawaii a lot.

And.

I was gonna say, yeah, they go there with a lot of expectation. And my favorite place to eavesdrop, Hawaii, is on the big island at Kua bay. It's this just really pretty beach. And, you know, you just hear people go like, okay, what are we doing later? Well, what are we gonna eat? And you just like, you hear the stress of them being on the vacation. It's hilarious, right?

I have this great story. One time I was at dinner with some friends, and we were standing in line. I think we were getting ready to pay, and we were talking about what we were gonna do next. And we had plans of going to this place called eclipse chocolate, which, dear listeners, it's fantastic. You can order it online, eclipsechocolate.com.

Oh, my God. I knew that was going to be the punchline. Of this story. I love it.

So fun, eavesdropping. So. Right. But, I mean, as a writer, you really do need to pay attention because that's where your characters come from. Is all these beautiful people out in the world doing these crazy things that we adopt into characters? I love it.

I have always been, you know, on the subject of observing, I've always just loved looking at other people and figuring out what they're doing and making up stories about them. I can't work in a cafe or in public because I get too invested in the characters around me.

Right.

And, I'm just, like, very easily entertained, you know, I like to say I think I could just stare at a blade of grass for, like, an hour. But really, people, I'm just like, what are we doing? You know? I often zoom out and think, so we built these houses, then we built fences around them. We're, like, taking ourselves so seriously. Where is that person going? Like, what are we doing? It's just hilarious.

Totally. Yeah. my mom and I, when we would go on road trips, like, we'd see someone walking down the road, and, like, ten minutes later, we would have, like, developed this entire story around why they're walking down the road, what happened? They got into a fight with their lover, and, like, you know where they're going and why they're doing it. So I agree. I like to entertain myself with the fake stories of those around me.

Totally. And I like asking people questions, too. Like, I like to cut right through the small at a party and be like, no, how are you really?

That must be disarming to people. Like, do they appreciate it, or are they like, whoa.

I kind of depends on the person, but I don't really want to have the small talk. They don't like it. That's okay.

You're like, move on, moving on.

Next desired effect is reached either way.

Yeah, totally. I love that about you. And then maybe that comes through in the characters, too, you know? m by the way, I love Diego in this book. Like, he's so fun. He just. He says all of the things, that I want to say. Where does Diego come from in this book?

Gosh, no one has asked me about Diego. Thanks for asking. Diego is loosely based on my friend Randy, who's a lawyer, and we lived together for a few years back in the day in Boston. And, he is just a truth teller, you know? And that is what Diego does. He's a great foil.

Zara.

And part of the fun of writing first character is that every first character is unreliable. First person narrator, I should say, is an unreliable narrator. And so I'm interested in figuring out how to see around what the narrator is telling us to, what is true. And a great way to do that is to have a truth telling friend foil like Diego.

Absolutely. That's awesome. Would you say that getting your MFA made you a better writer?

I, think I. It put me in among people who were also serious about writing. and that was very important to me at the time. I think writing is so solitary that just to have a group was really useful. So I kind of. It's almost like aa in a way, where it's like, I don't think I would have stopped drinking if I didn't have that group to go walk into. You know? It's just like, oh, there are these people doing this. Okay, I can do this, technically, make a writer. Sure. I'm sure I learned some things

Yeah, it is useful. Oh, I feel like I'm really bad at that. When I go into reading critique groups, I'm like, I have no idea what to say. I'm either gonna say, wow, that's really good, or, that was terrible. Like, those are the things I want to say.

Yeah, it's interesting because, you know, the person on the other end. Different people respond to different things too. So sometimes you have to take that into account.

100%. Now, I find it interesting, that you're. You've switched publishers. So I wanted to ask about moving to ziby books and how that came to be.

I moved to Zibby books for a really logistical reason. gallery, the imprint of Simon and Schuster, with whom I published getting clean with Stevie Green, stopped doing novels and is now only doing celebrity memoirs.

Oh, interesting. Wait, will yours be published through them? I mean, you are a celebrity.

No, my memoir is. No, but, like, the book that I ghost wrote for the Real Housewife is published by them. That's the type of celebrity I think they're in. my memoir is going to be published with zippy books. It comes out at some point next summer.

Oh, yeah. Nice. We have a lot to look forward to from you. Are you already working on. Are you already working on your next novel?

No, I'm still. I just turned the memoir in, and so now we're editing it. I'm focused on that and also on making some visual art.

Well, and, I mean, you're on tour for two books too. That's gonna take up a lot of time.

Yeah, it's really fun. It's such a different mind, space to inhabit than the, sitting alone, making stuff. Mindspace.

I imagine, like, you go in chunks, right? So you write for seven weeks, and then you go through the editing process, and then when it's finally published, then you go through the touring process. Does your life feel like it has these patterns that happen?

yeah, it does feel like. I guess I'm sort of used to this process now. And, as I said before, what I'm focused on right now is just doing more, is diversifying my portfolio, I guess I could say. So I feel like making some visual art right now, so I'm just going to do that and see how that goes. I kind of think the whole world of visual art is just such bullshit. I kind of just want to see how far I can get. And then I'm also interested in writing for

Well, speaking of visual art, I know that you have a line of greeting cards. I mean, I guess you would call them a line. I have them and I love them. And when I send them to people, people are like, wait, where did you get these? Are you still selling your greeting cards on your website?

God, that's a great question. I am not. But if anybody wants a greeting card, you can just email me through my website. There's, like, a contact form at the end. and I think what I'm going to do for a little while is just make original pieces and sell those on instagram and see how it goes.

I think that's a really good idea.

Thank you.

That's a great idea. Yeah. You're so talented. You do so many things. It's incredible to me.

Oh, my gosh. Thank you so much. Well, as I said, I'm just trying to entertain myself in a room alone and have fun.

And entertaining the world as you do it. so you're grounded when that comes out on June 11. are you gonna have a big bash? who's publishing that book? I didn't ask.

That book is being published by Tartar Perigee. who? They publish a lot of gift books like this, and they also publish gabor mate, who I think is a genius and whose most recent book is called Myth of Normal. And then also Julia Cameron's the Artist's way is published by them. So they do kind of a large thing. and my editor there, Lauren Appleton, is so rad. She totally understands my dark sense of humor. It's great.

That's important.

Yeah, yeah, it's great. And I think, you know, at this stage in my career, I really understand that it's best to be as involved as possible in this publicity, outfacing part of it, and to just be really proactive. In the past, I have expected other people to do that for me, and then I've been, frequently disappointed. And so this time I'm like, I'm just gonna make up a bunch of stuff. So, on June 11, on the launch day, I'm doing a conversation at a

Nice. Nice. Oh, my gosh, I wish that, the traffic between San Diego and LA wasn't quite so harsh or I'd come up to one of those and celebrate with you. well, I think I'm coming to.

San Diego for something.

Oh, well, you know what? I will have to get on. Do you have a newsletter?

No.

So I have to pay attention to Instagram because I know you're active on Instagram.

Ah, I guess so. Or I'll put it on my website.

Okay. Okay. Yeah. Well, I wanted to ask you if the difference between, you know, a gift book and a novel is, like, just in the promotional world, is it markedly different or is, you know, it's still a book. How does that. How does that work?

It is completely different. you know, the novel people, like, don't really know what a gift book is. And then the gift book people think that novels are prestigious. And the marketing part of it, the gift book, really all happens online. Like, it's really all about social media. and then, the novel, you go and read to people and you have these events

So what you need is an influencer to tell the world to buy this book. Well, right.

A ton of influencers. Yeah.

Not just one. All of them. All of the influencers need. You are grounded. Well, I can't wait to find it.

Thank you.

And I say find it because, as you said, there's no arcs out there. They don't do that in the gift book world, which I find fascinating. So on June 11, I will run out and buy it. Can you pre order it?

Great. If you want to pre order it. Actually, I don't know when this podcast is coming out, but if people can pre order, pre orders are really, really important. even if this doesn't apply to my book now, just in general, if you have author friends, preorders are so major in a way, they determine the success of the book. I mean, they determine which lists you're on, how you get rated on Amazon. so if you want to support your author friends, pre order.

Definitely. Definitely. Excellent advice, which we will absolutely do. Okay, I have one final question for you before we let you go about your day. What is the weirdest job you've ever had?

I've had so many weird jobs. I guess I was a television for a little while, and, I have realized that if you have facial tattoos, you're either a rock star or a telemarketer. and there was like, a smoking pen in this parking lot. So it was basically like me as a teenager. I was young when I had this job and a bunch of people with facial tattoos in this, like, small, little square pen, smoking, like, crowded. Yeah. And then trying to sell stuff. I was not selling the stuff, but it was funny.

That's awesome. Well, I think at some point maybe a telemarketer is going to make it into your books, right? Maybe. Well, Swan, thank you so much. this has been awesome. I love talking to you and I love reading your books. I look forward to getting, my hands on your grounded. An anti self help book to calm you the fuck down, which, who doesn't need that? And I just want to tell our listeners, I want you more. Is such a good book. I read it in one day and it's such a page turner. It's

Oh, my God. Thank you so much, jennifer. This has been a blast and so happy to be talking to a San Diego.

Yeah, I know, right? When you, when I saw your phone number, I was like, oh, that's right, 619. That's right. She's from San Diego. So that was, that was a fun reminder. All right, folks, thank you so much for joining us today on the premise. And please visit us [email protected]. subscribe rate review the premise. Wherever you get your podcasts, those reviews really help us get the word out and increase our subscriber base. They help our authors, and we