>> Jeniffer: Hello and welcome to the Premise. This is season six and I'm pretty excited to be back. How are you, Chad? >> Chad: Good God, Season six. >> Jeniffer: I know, right? I was thinking the same thing. We've been doing this for six years. >> Chad: Yeah. Here we are, us now, right? >> Jeniffer: Look, well, no one can. Yeah, no, sorry about that. Right next to, you know, the cat tree. And anyway, listen, we are really excited because today we are with a very, very special guest and a
good friend of mine. His name is Richard Williams. He's from ipg, which is Independent Publishers Group. They are a distributor, a book distributor. And we're going to talk all things book distribution, what it is, how it works and how or even if small publishers and indie authors should get it. We're going to dive
into the good, the bad and the ugly. Richard T. Williams is the Vice president of Business Development at IPG where he oversees new and existing business for the IPG distribution program as well as for clients seeking extended publishing services and licensing opportunities. He is a former sales manager at ipg, the former director of the Small Press United program, and was once an operations manager and an independent publisher where he earned first
hand experience of the publishing side. And we're going to dig and into all of that today. And Richard, you and I have been talking about like really getting behind the scenes and talking about the publishing world I would say for like 10 years, maybe more. >> Richard: It was definitely pre pandemic and it feels like it kind of came out of the sort of the reality TV craze because you and I had our great grand idea of many, many moons ago that we're not going to talk about here because we still
might want to see this into fruition someday. So we got to keep our plans a secret. >> Jeniffer: We got to keep them close to the chest as it were. Well, I want to talk a little bit about it because I worked for a small publisher back in the late 90s actually and it was just like the people who I worked with, it was just such an interesting group of people, I'm going to just say it like that. And it was just funny. Like some days as I was like this should be a reality TV
show. And I remember you and I, you have the same experience because you also worked for a small publisher. >> Richard: I did, I did. And in fact that seems like a lifetime ago, was, you know, it was absolutely without question, it was like my crash course and everything. Publishing, which I think a lot of people who get into publishing have to experience something like that because it tends to be the accidental career for a lot of people. And, and I hadn't. Yeah. And I had no idea what I was
doing. I was one of those kids who came out of college and thought, hey, I was an English major, I can do publishing stuff. >> Jeniffer: Right? >> Richard: And when you start out, you think that everybody just sits in these offices with brick walls and giant stacks of manuscripts and pencils, and that's what publishing is. And I learned pretty quickly that it is everything else as well. and in fact, that's the one thing in publishing that I really have
never done is editorial. And I'm so thankful that I haven't, because it is just not my line of work. >> Jeniffer: That is funny. And of course I was going toa ask you if you were a writer, even though I know the answer. >> Richard: You know, I grew up wanting to be a writer. I got a creative writing major or minor
in college. And, you know, just like everybody else who has this dream once upon a time, then you get involved in the inner workings of the thing that you love and you realize that it may not be the thing you want to do. And I'm very happy to think that I have focused my career, because it did kind of lead me here, and kind of left the writing for all the other people to do. Because there certainly is a lot of good writing out there.
>> Jeniffer: Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I want to go back to. You know, you said something really struck a chord with me when I worked for this small publisher and There was like 10 of us, right? We only had like maybe 12 books and they were a regional directory, bioscience and technology directories. >> Chad: So like, exciting. >> Jeniffer: It doesn't get any more dry than that. Right. But we were not a dry group of people. There were a lot of cocktail hours and
everyone had to do everything. And I remember when I was hired, you know, I, I was in editorial, and then I found myself doing layout. And then I was like, why don't we have distribution? Why aren't we in Barnes and Noble? And my publisher, my boss, was like, well, we just haven't been able to get it. And I'm like, can I try? And I've told this story before. I was like, we're just go goingna call Barnes and Noble every day until they order our books. And I. That's how I did
it. I'm the kind of person that I'm like, oh, the door is locked. I'll crawl through a window. I'll go through the chimney if I have to. >> Richard: But Jennifer, did it work? Did Barnes and Noble? >> Jeniffer: It Worked. So here's what I did. We created a spreadsheet. I created a spreadsheet of all the Barnes and Noble within, like a 100 mile radius of our office. And then I had it on, you know, a sheet so you could mark it off and put the date that you
called. And literally, your job was to just choose the next phone number in the list. And everyone starts at a different point, so it's random and calls the store and says, hey, do you carry this directory? Okay, thanks. And you, they always say, well, I can order it for you. Oh, that's okay. I'll try another store. Right. So. And then you hang up. And maybe you don't do it every day, but like. Like, one store would get called, like once
a week. They'd be getting a call. It took about two and a half, three months, until we got, literally got a call from the buyer, said, we need to get your books. I was like, great, I'd love to help. >> Richard: Well, you know, I would say that back then. That's amazing. It certainly has changed. >> Jeniffer: Go.
>> Richard: You can quite do that today. but what's also funny is that a lot of those publishing programs from 30 years ago were're doing books that have since sort of evolved out of that market. I feel like every day I'm looking at books that were published, 20 years ago that would never be published today because content delivery has changed so much. And there's so many different ways to bring your concepts to the market and so many different ways to, I mean, I mean, just go to
how to nonfiction books. Everybody goes on to YouTube and watches videos of how to do things. Now they don't need books anymore. So it's strange how much this has changed and how we reminisce about the days when things were literally slow enough that you had to call, and follow it down a spreadsheet in order to get your books placed in stores. >> Jeniffer: Yeah, yeah.
>> Richard: and similarly, I remember when I was in book sales, I, was given a copy of Crane's business Chicago, and had to go call, call every business listed in one issue of the magazine to try to sell books, our books at that time. >> Jeniffer: Oh, yeah. >> Richard: So, yeah, that's how we did ite same exact thing. That's how
you do it. and I feel for a lot of the authors and publishers who were out there today trying, trying to do the same thing, because now that I've been working on the other side for so long, I know what the sort of accepted lies that Barnes and noble uses to be able to like, tell authors like, this is not the way. Go do it some other way. You know, nobody ever wants to directly say to an author that they may not be interested in their book because their book is their
baby. Yeah, of course's right. But there are, there is obviously, is. There are obviously protocols that need to be followed. And I think that's where my, my movement into distribution really helped me. He was learning that piece of it, because sides. Yeah, I've been on both sides. and I still maintain that having that experience on both sides is what has made me good at what I do. >> Jeniffer: Absolutely.
You know what I like about you, Richard? And actually, I'll say there's a lot of things I love about you, but one of is that you really have a lot of compassion for authors. And so Richard and I really met at IBPA's publishing university, which happens once a year and it's been happening for 40 years or longer. So IBPA is Independent Book Publishers Association. And Richard,
you're always willing to give people advice. Like, you may not be able to take on their book, but you do it with compassion and you get back to people and you, you tell them why and what they can do to make their books better. >> Richard: I do, and I really appreciate your acknowledgment that I do that because I do have this sort of innate sympathy for the process. and plus I've seen what happens when it works.
And I think that to be able to guide people the right direction and not waste their time and be able to give them good, valuable feedback is one of the best things I can do to help somebody. And, you know, I think in some small way we all want to be able to help other people in some way. And this is way I can do.
>> Jeniffer: It and be better. And you, absolutely. And I remember one time you were giving advice to someone small publisher, children's books, maybe four books on the market, and you looked at each one and you were like, do you want my honest opinion? He said, yeah, I want it. And you just told him this, this, this, and this are, you know, four things that are going to keep you from getting, you know, selling your book, let alone getting distribution. And I remember his face just fell. It just
got kind of flat. And he looked really sad. And you felt so guilty. Later we were at dinner and you're like, oh my God, I shouldn't have told him those things. And then the next day he emailed you and said, thank you so much for taking the Time to be honest with me and tell me, you know, how I can do better, how I can get better. Because he wants to compete and his books are great. It just those little things that hold, hold us back from getting where we want to be.
>> Richard: Yeah, I agree with you there. And, I remember that exact experience. I will say that, not everybody takes it as well. True. >> Jeniffer: ye. >> Richard: You know, I mean, again, there is some truth to the fact that if you are a publisher and you are publishing your own content, you might almost be too close to it sometimes because that criticism is real.
And I think that being able to make those adjustments and get a little creative distance between you and your baby is always good for business. And some people know that. Some people have to learn that the hard way. I generally try to be gentle about it. but, you know, I think, I think it's worth hearing. >> Jeniffer: I agree. What do you, what would you say, like, the top three mistakes that you see, like new small publishing houses make? >> Richard: Oh, this is very, very easy to answer.
The top one, number one by far is publishing into a category where the publisher doesn't really seem to be aware of what the market can sustain. And so what I mean by that is let's use children's booksus. That's probably the best example. Know, children's books are really, when you're talking about picture books, they're really kind of divided into two basic categories. You've got the sort of the preschool books where it's like ages three to five who are learning words. You think about
Dr. Seuss and concepts and things like that. And then you have actual storytelling from ages 5 to 7 where kids can follow along with a character and read some more sophisticated language. And more often than not, out in the wild, I see children's books where it hasn't really been considered how old the child is going to be and what the reading
level is supposed to be. So without knowing that children's needs to be clearly delineated, like 3 to 5 or 5 to 7, and that the language needs to match that age, that's a huge piece of it. so it's knowing that the book is written for that market, but also it has to be packaged for that market. And one of the other biggest things that I see is a book that might be well written and well illustrated, but the page count is too high and the price is inevitably too high and it's just not going to
be competitive in the market. now I do say this, Jennifer. Knowing that most of My recent experience in particular is sort of angled towards the mainstream trade. And there are a lot of ways to sell books other than through the mainstream trade. But my eyes, I tend to look at things through that perception. >> Jeniffer: So talk about what those other ways might be.
>> Richard: Oh, well, I mean, I think a lot of. Okay, so that's a big question that I don't think I would need to actually kind of have something written up to be able to hit all the right points. But, once upon a time I felt like being in distribution. I felt like giving an author or a publisher the opportunity to have their book distributed was the number one way to kind of gain some clout and break yourself away from the rest of the pack. And I don't think that's
necessarily the case anymore. I think distribution can do that and will do that for certain kinds of books. But I also think that, today with, the digital realm being the primary way to market things, and so much social media and so much, sort of instant gratification on the part of consumers, there's a lot of ways that you can put your product out there that kind of steps around
the trade market. Altog togetherute m and I think you understand more than anybody probably that, you know, a lot of it is about being able to build your brand online, to be able to put your name out there and your product out there in association with everything that you're doing so that you will be more discoverable and, you know, have more success. >> Jeniffer: Absolutely. I often tell my authors one of the worst place to sell books is bookstores. And they just look at
me like I'm crazy. But the thing is, like, there's only so much bookshelf space. And what was it? I think this number is accurate. Around 3.5 million books were published in 2022 was the last time I got. >> Richard: Isn't that crazy? I remember when it was 50,000. >> Jeniffer: Me too. >> Richard: Right. And then it just started exponentially growing. And every time I would try to cite, a figure, I would double check it. Dou been like, yeah, double.
Yeah, it was half a million and then it was 1 million. And, you know, and, not all of those books are going to be relevant to every market. And that's the other thing that I think that I definitely would say, in terms of, you know, when you were asking about what those missps are or those misconceptions is that not every book is going to sell into every
market. And, and most of the time, I think when somebody is bringing a book to the market, they're anticipating that e there'going to be all these broad sales potential efforts. And instead it's, I feel like nowadays, especially with what, 3.5 million books being published annually, you've got to know what that target market should be. And it might just be one very small piece of the market, but if you can find that audience and sell to that audience, then you're going to have the
success that you need. And so it could be a regional audience, it could be a particular category audience. You know, I have publishers or have known publishers who only sell on Amazon and only sell science fiction books, you know, like very specific things because they know that readership is there and that's going to do what they want
for their books. So, I would say that the advice there would be to not necessarily look at your book as something that has to be sold in every store because it's not going to be. But maybe if there's a certain tier of stores or a certain market segment that you want to target. Yeah, yeah. Then that's the way to go. >> Chad: Well, we've got these, there's riches in the niches. >> Jeniffer: Yeah, yeah. Well, we've got like these lovely bookstores around San Diego that are
really gift shops with books. And I feel like that's such a great place to get certain books into. And, and we have a client right now who is publishing car books. So it's very niche. And he really has no intention of getting into distribution, you know, traditional distribution per se, because he goes direct to his audience through his authors. So he might have an author who has, you know, 1.5 million followers on TikTok or whatever platform he's on.
And then all he has to do is get, you know, 3% of those people to, want to pre order his book and it's paid for itself and it's working. They want the content. >> Chad: So you, as long as you're into a very specific type of car, it's not just like cars. >> Jeniffer: Yeah, yeah. Well, he understands his audience. He really understands the niche. You know, to your point earlier, Richard, he's not. I think a lot of times, you know, we're passionate about something and we tell this
story and it is our baby. But who's the audience? Who are we trying to target? And that's really the formula that makes publishing successful. And it's really hard for an author to do that because, you know, I call it your sacred cow. There's all these things that are really important to you but mean nothing to your audience and you're trying to shoehorn that into your marketing plan and no one gets it.
>> Richard: Well, I think this is where the role of a publisher differs from that of an author often is that, you know, the author is very good at, being able to put the creative package together and be able to get the thing out there. But you also need to have somebody who can make those hard decisions about where it will not sell and what the target market should be. And I think that's where a publisher's forte really comes into play. >> Jeniffer: Yeah, absolutely.
Well, okay, so we sort of skipped past the main question that some of our listeners might be asking, which is what is distribution? So talk. >> Richard: It's a really. Yeah, yeah, really good question. I. And that it's hard to completely understand and it changes constantly. But the main easy way to understand it is, distribution is sort of opening the floodgates to the supply chain.
So think of it this way. If you are, an author and you've published your own book and you want to get it out there, you can start from your basement or your living room or your car or wherever you are, and you can make that effort and that cost to try to get books everywhere they need to be. but if you suddenly have an opportunity to market yourself, that's going to really, really, really bring about a lot of
deep interest in the book that you've produced. you're not going to be able to work fast enough or cheaply enough to make it cost effective for most people. And so distribution is about opening the doors so that when that demand is there, people can get the book. >> Jeniffer: Yeah, definitely. Well said. And I have a great example of that. We had a client who wrote a book, this might have been 20 years ago, and he got on Oprah and guess what?
He didn't have the distribution and people couldn't find this book. And that wave, you know, is, is a short, short lived wave, you know, and once it crashes, it's done. People aren't going to come back and be like, oh, what was that book again? I really wanted two weeks ago, it's too late.
>> Richard: That's right, it is. And you know, and I think that sometimes when authors are trying to sell themselves and they're trying to get opportunities and they're filling out the form and talking about their book. One of the things that is asked is whether or not you have distribution.
And the reason for that is, and you know, like the trade magazines that do reviews and so forth, they will ask These questions too because they do not want to give important real estate and marketing muscle to something that is not going to be available. >> Jeniffer: Yeah. >> Richard: And so if you're an author and you see that question on some form that asks if you have distribution, the reason why you need an answer there is so that they will know that your book
is going to be available. It doesn't necessarily have to be IPG or some other established distributor, but it has to be a way into the market. >> Jeniffer: Yah. >> Richard: And so that's, that's what distribution is and that's what it does is it opens up that supply chain and it tells the rest of the industry that your product is going to be available when the consumers want it. >> Jeniffer: Right. Yeah. Oh, I like that. It's a good pull quote.
M well, okay, so now let's talk about the difference between traditional distribution and wholesale distribution. >> Richard: Okay, I can do that. That's pretty easy actually. so wholesale is primarily built as a tier of the industry that supports the retailer.
So if you're a bookshop and you ``n to get books from every single publisher that's out there, as most bookshops do, then you go to a wholesaler because they'll carry everything and that allows them to do one stop shop where they can get their books replenished. They have one line of credit where they can pay the monthly bill to continue to have their orders shipped. whereas distribution is more about making the publishers books available to those wholesalers and to those
retail. So again the wholesaler is really a benefit for the retailer whereas a distributor is the benefit for the publisher. >> Jeniffer: M I always kind of bench it like this. The wholesaler is really a list of all books that you have access to. >> Richard: Correct. >> Jeniffer: And distribution is an active, you know, someone actively trying to get those books into bookstores and a relationship with book buyers. >> Richard: Well, and y have distribution is usually a
curated list too. So instead of it being again wholesale works in such a way that you they will pretty much carry anything. They don't have those kinds of. They have quantity decisions made but not necessarily content decisions. If there is need for a book in the market, they can store it,
they can ship it to retailers. whereas a distributor, because they are really trying to sell product into the market, they're going to curate their list based on what looks sellable and what is backed by real marketing power, and real author activity. >> Jeniffer: One of the things that people need to think about is distribution isn't
necessarily the holy grail. And I've called You in the past and told you about a small publisher, you know, who have these great books, and you've kind of explained to me why they're not ready. And it has to do with not just marketing and demand, but, but also backlist and return. So can you kind of explain to us how that works and what you look for when you make a decision on who you want to bring into the family?
>> Richard: sure, yeah. I think that the main thing with most publishers is that when they get started, they think the distribution is going to be kind of the big step, that they need to have that sales power and the extra revenue coming in. And whereas that's sort of true, I don't think everyone understands the financial complexities of it. I'm gonna use an example. I think one of the last times I talked to you, it was specifically about a
one book publisher. And in the distribution model, because books are returnable by definition, if we take on a one book publisher and we do everything we can possibly do to sell the book, to help market it to the industry, to help kind of support the author's activities in social media, everything that's going to kind of raise the profile of the book, and we even push it out there and get it stored everywhere. And then for some reason and this, lots can happen
to any book. It just doesn't sell through it. Just for whatever reason, it just doesn't appeal to the market in general. Or there's some. Those books are returnable, they come back. They end up in such a model that we have, booked sales for several months and then six months later, they all come back as returns. And in that model you've got a publisher and an author, most likely different person, but sometimes the same, who are
waiting for that revenue. And the problem in a distribution model is if you're not releasing more books and you don't have steady, releases one after the another, you can't keep that cash flow on the positive side because you eventually get to a point where the sales drop off and the returns are on the ascent and eventually the returns will take over. You'll end up with all these negative months. And that's not an ideal relationship for either distributor or publisher. >> Jeniffer: Right, right.
And how long do bookstores have to return books? Is that indefinite? >> Richard: Well, yes, I think that it's not indefinite. Most of the time there are policies in place that say something like, hey, you have, you know, six months from the time that you've bought the book to return the book. But the, the small Secret is that if the book is actively selling and, it's still in print, you know, somebody can. This is where wholesalers
come in. Wholesalers don't really care. So you can buy a book and return it to the wholesaler, and that book is gonna go right back to the publisher or the distributor. And that could be nine months after the book is sold. That could be a year and a half after
the book is sold. we actually had an experience lately where Ingram must have stumbled across a supply of books that had been sitting in a warehouse for several years, and they returned a lot of them all at once, Even though several of those books hadn't really been sold to Ingram in almost just as long. And because of the separate sort of agreements that you have with the vendors, that can happen.
>> Jeniffer: That's like the kiss of death. It is, yeah. I knew an author who got a deal with Costco. Not an author, a small publisher. Sure. I need to speak more correctly here. So, you know, 50,000 books were printed and shipped, and 30,000 books were shipped back. And, you know, for a small publisher, that that s. Can put you under. And it did.
>> Richard: Yes. And in a distribution model, what happens there is, let's say we sell those 50,000 books, you know, three months down the road, that publisher is expecting to get paid for all of those books that have been sold. But. But we can tell by all of the tools that we have, in order to monitor books out in the market, we can tell
when things are not selling through. And in cases like that, where they don't have new books coming to generate new revenue, you have to build the financial model so that we don't end up paying a publisher for sales that are just going to come right back. And in that case, if we paid them for 50,000 books selling through and then 30,000 of them came back, we'd end up in a situation where we'have to claw money
back from the publisher. And that's very, very difficult. It's very difficult because a publisher usually needs that money and has invested so much of their life and time into putting this book out in the market that they've probably already spent it by the time that those returns come back. So that's why the model doesn't really work in distribution. When you're talking about a one book. >> Jeniffer: Publisher, it sounds bleak, if I'm honest. >> Richard: Well, when you mention. Well,
it is kind of bleak in that sense. I think what you want to be able to do is you want to be able to pitch the book as hey, I can get it out into the M market. And because of all the activity that I'm doing and all of the continued investment in my marketing and promotion of myself, I'm going to continue to force people to send, go into their stores and buy the book and that sell through will happen.
>> Jeniffer: Yeah. You know, and then so like the relationship with new titles and back title is really important. Right. >> Richard: Well, so yeah, you asked about Backlist before and the reason why, we would ideally prefer to be able to distribute a publisher who has an active backlist is for that very point you want to have that steady sort of,
regular sales. And that's what Backlist really is, is the books that you introduced in the past that have continued to sell, even if they're slow moving, continuing to sell, continuing to bring in that revenue for you, because that healthy revenue from your Backlist, which should be the back lone bone of any publishing program, is what allows you to make those risks of putting new frontless books out and sending 50,000 books out into the market without
knowing if the 30,000 are gonna come back because you have that steady paycheck of the backlist sales as well. >> Jeniffer: Right. And this is where, you know, I like to pipe in about author branding is it's so important to have that relationship with your readers and to, you know, to continue to keep that communication and that engagement with them. Because I like to say the number one thing that sells your first
book is your third book. You know, as you are building and developing that relationship and your brand is getting more visibility, people go back and buy that first book even though they've discovered your third book. >> Richard: Yeah. I would say there is nothing actually more important than, you know, kind of an author working on that brand and making sure that they are going to keep that fan
base. I mean that is crucial. A few minutes ago I mentioned that distribution used to be a way to kind of give your book the clout that it would need in order to sell. And I would say now it's far more important that you have the, the sort of, the self branding backup to be able to get out there and win over an audience. It's,
it's just, it's crucial. And that is one of the things that's going toa set your book apart more than, I mean, almost more than whether or not you have the right distributor. >> Jeniffer: Yeah. And that's why I'm in the business of selling authors, not books. >> Richard: Right. And I understand why you are. >> Jeniffer: You know, I said it's bleak but you said something in the beginning that actually is kind of exciting. And, you know, things have changed dramatically in
the past 20 years. And one of those things is, in fact, different ways to deliver content. Whether it's a YouTube video or an audiobook or an ebook or whatever format you're delivering your content, it's really the same thing. It's a form of storytelling. And I think for authors and small publishers to think outside the box of that traditional model is really important.
Do you see, like, a certain type of content that, you know, just as a distributor that you look at bringing into the fold of how you do business? >> Richard: Wow, that's a, that's a big question. I would say that there are a couple of answers there. It's not really based on content in the sense that, you know, we think that investing in, you know, a program that is publishing fiction is going to be therefore, somehow more valuable than one that sells
nonfiction. In fact, usually it's the opposite. There are other, business aspects we have to look at as a distributor who has a physical warehouse, who needs to be able to make everything as cost effective as possible. You know, I've had conversations with publishers, really good publishers with really strong publishing programs that are oriented towards kids audiences, where the retail prices on the books are all unanimously pretty low.
And what that means is that if you, your retail price points are super low, then when you put all the factors into it as what the distribution is going to cost, how much it costs your distributor to touch each book when they're pulling them from m the pile and putting them in a box or on a shipment, all of those aspects of it kind of factor in, and it's more cost effective for a distributor to work with books that have higher price points and that move in greater quantities.
You know, it's ideal for any distributor to ship boxes of books rather than in individual books. And that is what individual independent publishers really have to struggle with, is the fact that it is less cost effective for the entire traditional book system to touch their book. >> Jeniffer: And having all these different formats requires them reaching into different, you know, audience, you know, marketing efforts and finding different types of readers
and different places. And that all becomes very, very time consuming. But go ahead. >> Richard: Yeah. I do think having a partnership with a distributor or a marketer or somebody who can help is crucial because those partners will be able to help you market, multiple formats without kind of duplicating your efforts. >> Jeniffer: Okay. Okay. So that's good news. >> Richard: Yes. >> Jeniffer: And, and I think that, you know, however, People find our content again.
We're building relationships so that they want to continue to buy whatever that, that new product is or that new way in which you're distributing. your thoughts? I guess I'm sort of off base here and maybe I'm in deep water with you because I know your business is selling print books. Do you distribute ebooks? >> Richard: Oh, absolutely. >> Jeniffer: O. You do?
>> Richard: Yeah, no, no, we do. And in fact we have, we have ve invested a lot in our ebook business because we learned pretty early on that the, again, I think that the primary way to market is in the digital realm. Whether you're talking about print books or ebooks, you mark it in the digital realm. And there's no better way to market in the digital realm than to have
an ebook available. Your ebook being there and being listed everywhere and being findable in every search engine and so forth is what's going to make that print book sale happen. >> Richard: So we felt that it made more sense when you're talking about content in multiple formats, it makes more sense for your distributor to handle all of those formats together. Because, you know, any marketing you do on one edition should theoretically help propel the sales of another.
>> Jeniffer: Ah, absolutely. Well, good. Okay, that was m. That was sort of where I was headed is like, does it scare you that there's all those formats but you're embracing it and you need to. That's how we stay. Stay the game. >> Richard: You have to. Ah, yeah. The only part that we have struggled with, and it's not a big problem, is that sometimes there are books. And I would say in the children's world, the educational world especially, there are books that translate their content into
apps rather than ebooks. And so if somebody wants to do some kind of interactive app, they can develop that independently, but it doesn't get the benefit of being marketed by a distributor. >> Jeniffer: Interesting. Yeah, because then the distributor is. Well, like Apple for example. Right. >> Richard: Exact. Well, right. I mean we can do marketing on Apple for, for their ebook product, but not for the apps that they sell on the iPhones. You think that' probably, no, probably not.
>> Chad: Not with Apple. >> Richard: No. I think that things that sell in the digital spaces, I think that they become kind of more and more self service. And I think that where you'renna find with somebody working directly with Apple is that there are going to be fewer people like me who can help a publisher consult, who can actually use real life experience and say, yeah, do that, don't do that. You know, they instead they're going to Let kind of leave it up to you
to make decisions. I mean, that's what Amazon is really famous for, is for these really great programs that anybody can access, but then how to use them to the best of your ability and, maximize your sales potential, that's not something that everybody just inherently knows. That's something you have to learn. >> Jeniffer: Yeah. >> Richard: And so I feel like a distributor still offers, you know, people who have professionally done these things long enough that they can help
advise. So no matter how many systems are out there that are easy or difficult to use, you're actually getting real life sort of guidance in terms of how best to do it. >> Jeniffer: When I think about print books, I think back at the time when I was working in the music industry, I worked for Sam Goody, Music Land. And I remember one day we had to ship up, box up all of our vinyl and ship it back. And I thought to myself, really, that's it, Vinyl'done we're just like, we re.
We're done with vinyl. And I think sometimes people look at the print books, you know, in the print book industry, like that is like, are we going to be done with books? I personally don't see that happening, despite the fact that I heard an article recently that in 2024 we had the fewest number of people reading print books, physical books. That for some reason doesn't scare me. And I always think back to vinyl. And now vinyl is like the hottest thing, right? It's back.
Everyone wants vinyl. And I really just never seen print books go away. And I'm curious what your thinking is on this. And I happen to know, and we might as well just tell everyone, Richard has this massive, amazing collection of vinyl. So you could be like the expert on vinyl in this conversation too. >> Richard: Well, I hate some you this, but I have a pretty significant collection of books as well. >> Chad: I'm shocked, Shocked, I tell you.
>> Richard: but yeah, to answer that easy question for you, do I think books are going to go away? No, because I think what makes books appealing is the tactile facets of them. Right. Like the fact that you can be in a room and you can go over and you can kind of page through and see information without directly searching for that specific piece of information. I think it's a way people learn. I think it's a, that certain personality types are always
going to learn. there might be certain kinds of content that stop being available in print books, but I do think there's always going to be some level of print. I also think that the generation changing over will redefine that. you know, the generation that's kind of in charge is still sort of that, you know, I would say the baby boomer to Gen X generation that sort of built the book industry into what it is. And the ones that have been suffering the most have been those people who've seen the
changes. But as new generations come up, I, I think millennials were probably the first generation to really have to, embrace ebooks. And I think that the next generation after that has had a world where they necessarily have had to read physical books because ebooks have been available. But let's just take the kids market. Know, no matter how much goodwill is put behind the idea of making a really great interactive children's picture book, kids don't respond to it the same way.
And we have found that the children's picture book market can continues to flourish. You know, it just, it hasn't translated directly to digital quite the same way that, you know, adult textbooks have. >> Jeniffer: Yeah, yeah, that's a great example. And our brain like, learns differently when we, when we use a pen to write versus writing on a keyboard. When we read something physically, it's a different process in our brain that I think
is important to remember. Not that I'm a neurologist or a brain scientist in any way, but, I personally, when I need to remember something, if I write it down with a pen, I will remember it. >> Richard: And that is, that is, that is your, that is your method of learning. >> Jeniffer: Like, that is my experience. >> Richard: Yeah, that's inherent to who you are. And I think that you cannot expect that future generations are all going to learn and absorb information the same way.
>> Jeniffer: That's true. And you know, when I came up in a time when we didn't have computers and we were told to take notes. So, yeah, that's how my brain works. But I do think that there's a different experience with the content when you're seeing it on the page and, and reading it and flipping pages. That tactile experience that you mentioned before, there's something really beautiful about it. Novel. >> Richard: Well, that's what happened with vinyl too,
as. Right. The music world went digital and like, we were all weaned into it by cds, which of, of course generated digital music from the product. But once you pulled them off of a physical product, you lost something. There was an interaction between the listener and the music that was manifested by its, artwork and just holding that thing in your hand and reading those lyrics and the thank you notes or Whatever it is that made it a tactile experience.
whereas I think the reason why vinyl came back is because a. It wasn't a digital format. So therefore you wasn't asking people to invest in something that was already, you know. >> Jeniffer: Yeah. >> Richard: On the market. and then also, it's just. It's a beautiful way to take that content and present it to people. And I think the answer there is that some books are just beautiful books. And the more beautiful a book, the more you're always going to have an audience for it.
>> Chad: See, I have a far more dystopian view on things. >> Jeniffer: Of course you do. >> Chad: I think, in a world where tech giants rule and can take away things at the drop of a hat, I'm looking at the U2 album in particular that was delivered to everybody that had an Apple device. No one really wanted it. It just showed up one day in Apple Music. >> Richard: I. >> Chad: They were able to take it away. And they do this with, with ebooks all
the time. If they decide that we don't want you to have this, we will take it, we're done with it. We're not allowing it on our platform anymore. So if you have a physical book, that thing still exists. There's still. Same with, with vinyl. I remember when I had to get rid of. I didn't have to get rid of. I was just, you know, a transient teenager who, you know, didn't have any means or place to store his viny. So it's like, you know, things get left places and I don't
know. And then I had to do the transition from vinyl to through tape onto disc. And it's like I have purchased this same damn album three times. Three times now. >> Jeniffer: Yeah. >> Chad: I wish I just had the vinyl. >> Richard: You knowpt s interesting. Well, Chad, it's interesting first of all, you know, because all it really takes is for your cat to get a little too close to that record and suddenly it's rendered completely useless. But the other thing is that, when you're talking
about ebooks and you're talking about the sort of. The permanence of them, that has been a very contested topic for a long time. Libraries in particular, who are all about building collections that can be used by their m. Their sort of constituency, libraries have been
shifting into an ebook model. And then what good is it for a library if you've got this addition of something in your cloud collection that just disappears because the publisher or distributor determines that this is not something they want you to have anymore? so there's an organization called dpla. It's the Digital Public Libraries of America. They have an initiative to sell ebooks to accounts in a way that allows them to keep that format for the rest of
existence. And the goal of that, there are a lot of different sort of specific reasons for it, but the goal is because we can't anticipate the changes in technology. And so whereas right now most ebooks are sold in a reflowable EP and they might be on ePub, I don't know, 3.0 or 5.0 or 8 point, I don't know what number it is. But at some point, because of changes in hardware and changes in technology, there is going to be a need to maybe abandon the EPUB format and
instead deliver content in this other way. And suddenly a library has to repurchase all of the content that they have spent all of their budgets for how many years, you know, acquiring. Now there's a way that they, they can buy content, that they will be able to access that content when they need to repurpose it for a new format. And some publishers don't want that because it gives library access to what is effectively their
ip. So, for example, ipg, we have a relationship where we are selling ebooks into this DPLA initiative, but we give our publishers the opportunity to opt out of it. >> Jeniffer: Oh, interest_ing yeah. >> Richard: But it's interesting. It shows that people are thinking about that. And there are a lot of vendors who want to preserve the collections that they buy in a digital format. And they do that, in numerous ways. And this is one of them. >> Jeniffer: Right, right.
So I want to go back to your cat ruining your vinyl. >> Richard: Oh, yes. >> Jeniffer: How is Alice? >> Richard: Well, she sleeps on the stereo, so she's grown to really love the music. >> Chad: All those transformers are warm. >> Jeniffer: Yeah, they are. >> Richard: Those transformers are warm. >> Jeniffer: I remember the story of how Alice got her name. I was hoping you would tell our listeners about Alice. Alice is Richard's cat.
>> Richard: Well, so just to be clear, we have a cat and we have a dog. >> Jeniffer: We don't want people thinking you're just a cat person. >> Richard: We'll. The segue there is that I'm pretty sure that our doggie daycare person is redelivering my dog to me upstairs, like in just a minute or two. So I wanted to kind of give you the heads up. but terms in terms of Alice, you know, she's fantastic. We got her from a rescue, a very well known rescue here in
Chicago called Felines and Canines. If anybody in Chicago was listening and is willing to rescue, an animal they have cats to and dogs. And it's a great, great place. You can go to this house and kind of hang out with all the animals and let them pick you. Alice picked us. we did not go there to get Alice. And I sat down and she climbed on top of me, and she ended up falling asleep in my lap. And the idea of leaving there at that point without her was unfathomable. So that.
But she got her name because we got her home. And I did not do that thing that as. As a pet owner for decades, I know the drill. And when you're introducing a cat to a new house, you're supposed to do it piece by piece because they are curious. They will investigate, but they also will get overwhelmed, and you have to kind of familiarize themselves and mark their territory and do all those things. And I just brought her home and opened it up in the big room, of my apartment and
kind of let her just go. And she ended up finding a hole behind our H vac where it was like a hole in the wall. And she went in there and didn't come out for about 14 hours. >> Jeniffer: Oh, my gosh. Yeah. >> Richard: And. And. And it was scary because we were all excited about getting this new kitten. And then this happened, and we didn't know if she was going to get stuck or if she's gonna fall through the. Or end up coming out in somebody else's
apartment, you know, through the. Through the light fixture. Like, you just never know. But yet there was enough evidence that she was just kind of hanging out in there. Like, you would see her eyes sometimes that we didn't get super alarmed. But it was because she fell back into that hole behind her H vac that it was like Alice falling in the hole, the rabbit hole down to Wonderland. And therefore, she became Alice, which is.
>> Jeniffer: A great way to end this podcast on a literary note, Alice the cat. Richard, thank you so much for spending an hour with us and just, you know, talking about books and distribution. And I just really appreciate it. Thank you. >> Richard: You're very welcome. I appreciate being asked. And hopefully I will be the best and most successful_ful, episode of season six. >> Jeniffer: Oh, you absolutely will. And then there'll be a prize. We won't tell you what it is till you win it.
Awesome. Folks, Richard Williams again is the vice president of IPG and business business development at IPG. And you can learn more about [email protected]. this has been another episode of the Premise. You can visit us [email protected] and subscribe and rate or review the Premise wherever you get your podcasts. Those reviews really help us get the word out and increase our subscriber base. We appreciate
you. And, you can follow me on Instagram @jennifergrace or on Facebook at Jennifer Thompson Consulting. Until next time. Thanks for listening. Goodbye. >> Chad: Goodbye, Goodbye.