>> Jeniffer: Hey there. I'm Jennifer Thompson. >> Chad Thompson: And I'm Chad Thompson. >> Jeniffer: And this is the Premise where we get to the story behind the Storyteller. This is our sixth season, folks. Six seasons. It's so exciting. Can you believe it? We've got a really amazing season lined up for you, so let's dive in. Hello and welcome to the Premise. I'm Jennifer Thompson. I'm Chad Thompson. And we are here today with a pretty incredible author. I'm super
excited. Dennis James Sweeney is the author of how to Submit Getting your writing published with literary magazines and small presses, which is a wonderful guide for writers. We're going to dive into that today. I'm particularly excited about today's conversation because of how much I enjoyed this book. It was so inspirational and practical. And as I was reading it, I kept thinking how every one of my clients and all of my writer friends need this book. I want to buy, like, 50
copies and, like, mail them out to everyone I know. but we'll get into it and why. Dennis James Sweeney's books also include the Rolodex, Happenings, you're the Woods Too, and In the Antarctic Circle, as well as several chap books of poetry and prose, including Ghost Home A Beginner's Guide to Being Haunted. His writing has appeared in Ecotone, the New York Times, and the Southern Review, among others. He has an MFA from Oregon State University and a PhD from the University of Denver.
Originally from Cincinnati, he lives in Amherst, Massachusetts, where he teaches and has a one month, one week old new baby. Is that right? >> Chad Thompson: That is true, yes. We're coming from that state of mind, right nowes. >> Jeniffer: Well, thanks for taking the time. And Dennis, thank you so much. Welcome to the premise. >> Chad Thompson: Thank you so much for having me. Thanks for your nice words about the book, too. That means a lot.
>> Jeniffer: Oh, my gosh, I love this book so much. So I'm a writer. Of course. I'm in the business. I think most of us are wannabe writers, right? And I was so inspired to, like, get back in and make a plan. And there's so much generosity and kindness in this book. And I knew nothing about you before. So I read the book and then I did a little research and I'm like, o, I get it. You're a man of empathy and kindness.
>> Chad Thompson: I think I try to be. I was thinking recently about how in college I joined this peer counseling group that had kind of this training that we go through to sort of be on call if anybody has, like, a mental health crisis or needs to talk or anything. Like that it's a completely random thing from a random part of my life. But I realized recently, oh, ah. That was that thing that I was doing. I was having empathy and trying to connect with people on that basis. So I think,
yes, I think you're. I think you're totally seeing me. >> Jeniffer: Oh my gosh, that's. That's awesome. Well, I read so many nonfiction books that are like, here's the facts now go do something with it. But this was like being gently guided to really think differently about the process of submitting and getting published. And that's what we really need because otherwise it's so daunting.
>> Chad Thompson: I totally agree. Yeah, that's the idea. You know, I think that so many times when we come to this process of trying to publish our work, it can be incredibly stressful and incredibly daunting. And it's sad because that's part of a process, writing as a whole that should be joyful and should be inspiring. And a lot of us come to it because it's the satisfying work that kind of fills up our soul. But there's
almost this wall between that work of writing. And then suddenly it's time to get published and you feel like, oh, no, I'm going to be rejected and I'm going to have these negative experiences is. It's going to be hyper logistical. And I get why people go to that place. I go to that place too. And I have in the past, but I've realized finally after, you know, decade or so of doing this, that if I can bring that sense of inspiration from the writing process into the publication process,
then it's all a lot more fun. And I'm, more successful with it because I have more spirit in it. >> Jeniffer: Nice. Yeah, yeah. And you're connected to the process, which, you know, we'll talk about the process, but I kind of want to go back to the very beginning of the book. And you are an MFA student in Oregon, and a young writer came to tell you how it really is. Can you take us back to that moment?
>> Chad Thompson: Yeah. So this writer came and really generously. I feel almost bad starting the book with this because the writer came and really generously told us her exact story. She came and sat at the front of the classroom. We'd all read her book. It was pretty famous. She was doing incredibly well. It was kind of living the dream that we were all dreaming ourselves. She sat up at the phone in front of the classroom and said, this is how it works. Or at least this is how it
Works for me and for her. She went to her mfa. You know, one of the stories that she wrote was picked out by one of her professors to be sent to, I think, the New Yorker. Published in the New Yorker. She got an agent immediately. Wow. Then the agent handled everything after that. I mean, that's, far and above the dream even for people who end up with agents and end up with, you know,
having big five publishing deals and stuff like that. But we were all kind of odd and horrified because we'like that could only happen to one person, you know, and. >> Jeniffer: Right. >> Chad Thompson: How, what kind of role do we have in this? Do we have any control over our own fate if somebody doesn't do that anointing for us? So I was sitting there and I was like, oh no. Like this is the thing that has to happen and it
hasn't happened yet, maybe it never will. But at the same time I was engaged in these communities of small press literature and literary magazine publishing that I hadn't realized it yet, but they were actually formulating the community that ended up being the place where I published my work and where I found so much fulfillment and so much positivity and I had a hand in my own publishing fate. Like, it felt like more of a conversation than sort of
being anointed and selected from above. And that conversational, more community aspect, I realized that's incredibly fulfilling. And that's the thing that is giving back to me a lot. And I think a lot of us walk that path too. So I wanted to trace it. I wanted to give some credit to that path that so many of us follow. instead of pretending like that singular dream is the thing that happens for everybody. Because I think what I'm writing about is
the thing that happens for more people. And, it's something we can find a lot of joy in. >> Jeniffer: Yeah, yeah. Because if we think to ourselves, well, that's never going to happen for me, we just give up. >> Chad Thompson: Exactly. Yeah. You don't want to have that feeling of it being out of your hands too. I think that's the other thing. If you feel like it has to happen from somebody else giving it to you,
then it feels like it's out of your control, you know. And I think some of the fun of writing is also when we have this sense of being able to do it ourselves. Right. Being able to self determine a little bit. I think publishing is like that too, because you build yourself into the conversation and you don't know when that book'going to get picked up. You don't know when somebody's going to invest in your work, but you do know that you're there and you're present for it, right?
>> Jeniffer: 100%. Yeah. >> Chad Thompson: That's the thing that has to happen before it all kind of clicks. >> Jeniffer: So one of the things that I think is so great about this book, you know, aside from just the generosity and, like, it's a fun book to read and a quick book to read, too. Right. Is you literally set it up and you take us through your journey. You know why? To submit, where to submit, getting set up. I'm actually reading the table of contents, listeners.
>> Chad Thompson: Amazing. >> Jeniffer: Y your strategy, the COVID letter, behind the scenes. There's case studies that are all a little different and, you know, their journeys. And you point out, like, your journey needs to be your journey. You're not going to take this template and be like, okay, I'm going to do it. Exactly. You're going to do it the way you need to do for you. And you talk about intuition and your own personal goals. And you asked this one question. In
fact, one of the things I love. Oh, my gosh, I'm going to talk too much during this interview is how many times you have, like, a writing prompt or like a little journaling moment for the reader to get us to put ourselves into the story, which I thought was kind of brilliant. But why do you want to publish? What are, you know, talk about why that's so important. >> Chad Thompson: Oh, my gosh. Me personally? >> Jeniffer: Well, no, like, >> Chad Thompson: Oh, for all of us.
>> Jeniffer: Yes, yes, yes. Y oay. I was like, too. >> Chad Thompson: Yeah, yeah, yeah. My secret reasons that I will never div. Boge. No, I think it's. >> Jeniffer: It's about the money. Just kidding. >> Chad Thompson: Yeah, it's all about the money. It's important because those are so vulnerable to us. Right. I teach these classes sometimes on, how to submit. And that's actually what the book bloomed out of. Like having this
discussion among small groups of about 15 people. And it'd be an informational class at first, but eventually I evolved it into a discussion class because I realized it was actually something people needed to talk about, not something people needed to hear me talk about for three hours. And those discussions were so beautiful because they brought out that vulnerable side of it. Right. It's all that stuff that's inspiring us
to submit. So some people are saying, I want to submit or, publish my writing because I need validation for, you know, to my story being important and being important to other people. Some people are saying this is a story that hasn't been told enough. And I really want to get it out there in the world. Some people are like, this is an important mind. ###estone for me, I love writing, and I want to have a time when I know that it's done. And
so everybody has kind of a different approach to it. But I find that the reasons that people are trying to publish their writing and trying to share it with people often do bloom out of that writing process itself in that moment when you're really invested in having a good experience and doing something for your soul. Right. And for me, those writing prompts in the book, I'm really glad you keyed in on that, because I wanted there to be some writing in
a book about publishing. I wanted be able to keep circling back to the page and keep asking themselves those deep questions that we can often lose track of. Right. I give some of these lists in the book, too, that rank publication venues in terms of prestige. For example, these, kind of p. Pushcart prize rankings, for example, for literary magazines. And those are a really good place to start for people who are looking up where to submit.
But it's so easy to get drawn into that narrative of I have to go to the best possible venue and I have to submit to the place that's going to look best to other people. Whereas what really matters is what looks best to you and what gives you a good experience as a writer and as a person. >> Jeniffer: Yeah, I love how you tear. You know, this whole process of submitting, you, you created a strategy that makes so much sense, and part of it
is tiered. And I'd like you to kind of walk people through what that means, you know, in terms of, like, the big five are like the most prestigious literary journals. If we're talking short stories, you. And then how many you submit, how long you wait, what it means to get it. There's so many things to dive into, but, like, talk about why the tiered system is so important.
>> Chad Thompson: For me, it's all about compartmentalization. The process of submitting your writing, sending out your work can feel so scattered because of the way the Internet works. If you just Google how to submit, you get a million articles, you get all this information, a bunch of different venues, and you can feel like you don't know where to begin. Or maybe you start sending out your work, but you do one place here, one place there, you freak out
for a couple weeks, another place, another place. Right. Freaking out is a big part of that process. But if you can compartmentalize the process and make it into something that's a little more, distinct, where you know when you're doing what you're doing and why you're doing it. That can really help your mental state a lot and help you have more success with achieving the
goals of publication too, I think. So. Tiers are basically when you select a group of venues that are roughly the same preference for you in terms of your desire to get published in them. You select maybe five venues and submit to them all at the same time. And you know if one venue accepts the piece that you've just submitted, that you won't feel bad about withdrawing it from the other venues you've submitted to. >> Jeniffer: Right, right.
>> Chad Thompson: You don't want to have that situation where you've submitted to a highly prestigious journal or somewhere you really love and then a place you love less accepts it and then you feel weird about withdrawing it from the place you really love. Right. So that's why you select tiers of about five to eight venues usually, and submit to those tiers as a unit. And then after you do that, you can kind of let go of the process. You can just let the
responses come back. And after you receive know, three, four or five responses from that tier, you can move to your next year and submit another group based on your preference of how much you want to be published in those particular places. So it's just a way of compartmentalizing your effort and making it so that you have a little more feeling of being in touch with the specific places and specific reasons that you want to submit.
>> Jeniffer: Well, and one of the things you talk about is timing. You know, it takes for those more prestigious journals, it takes a long time to hear back. So it's like, how long do you want to wait? Right. >> Chad Thompson: And it can take years. Oh my gosh. And you don't want to wait forever. Exactly. Sorry to interrupt you. >> Jeniffer: No, totally. Please do, anytime. I mean, that's the whole thing, right. Is in the beginning, like you just want to get one acceptance. And you talk about
your first acceptance with such joy. I loved it so much. Can you tell our listeners about that moment that you got your first acceptance? >> Chad Thompson: Yeah, I think the one I key in on is my first chat book acceptance, which was the first singular unit of my writing that was going to be published with my name on it,
said Dennis James Sweeney on the front. It was a chap book called what they Took Away that was highly influenced by these linked flash fictions I was reading in a lot of small press venues at the time. And I sent it out to several chatbook contests. You know, I'd written it, revised the hell out of it. I felt good about it. I felt like it might work, but I didn't know. And so just like everything, I kind of expected to be rejected for a long time, and then maybe it would get picked up
somewhere. And one of the first few contests I sent it to, I got this email saying, congratulations, you won the chatbook contest. We're going to publish your chat book. >> Jeniffer: Nice. >> Chad Thompson: And I definitely did not believe it. And I sent an email back to the editor saying, no, it's not true. I don't believe you. Can you please confirm that this is accurate? I was pretty sure it was a glitch and
subitable or something like that. And they did ultimately write back, and they confirmed that it was reality that I was living. And, yeah, it was just such an amazing experience, you know, to realize that somebody cares about your work and they think it's amazing. And I ultimately got to do a reading with them, awp. And I was still kind of new to the literary world in that sense, the sort of awp,
like, literary magazine literary world at the time. And so I went and I did this reading to, a room full of people. And I felt like I was, like, coming out into the world after being in this dark cave. For a long time, I've been writing on my own. And then suddenly I was in front of a group of people. I was like, do they like it? Am I really here? Is this happening? So it was this kind of moment of magic and acceptance, you know, in more ways than one.
>> Jeniffer: Yeah. That's so cool. I love that story. You brought up so many things I want to talk about, but I think the first thing is, you know, we have to remember that there is someone who received that email from you. And I can't even imagine how tickled they were to get this email from someone who is one. And they're like, wait, did I really win? Like, there's. There's a person on the other end making these decisions and readting your work, and we forget that.
>> Chad Thompson: Absolutely. And it's weird because later on, when I was doing my Ph.D. this is maybe five or six years down the line, I became one of those people, right, who was judging, not the contests, but who was reading submissions for Denver Quarterly when I was an assistant editor there. And suddenly I realized, oh, the people who are reading these submissions are not these gatekeepers that are standing on top of a mountain passing down judgment on everybody
below. Right. It's actually a lot of times it's students, it's people without a lot of literary capital, as you might frame it. It's people who aren't acting as gatekeepers or really thinking of themselves as gatekeepers. It's just other people who really love the written word and, are also writers themselves and who really want to help kind of keep the literary world
running. So I realized when I ended up in that position that it's actually more of a lateral relationship, like a non hierarchical relationship than I thought at first. I was talking to more peers when I was writing that email bag than I was talking to somebody who was at the top of that mountain. Right. But it took me a while to realize that because it's really hard. It feels really hard to break into these communities or at least to break into the act of getting published. Right.
Suddenly when you do, you realize, oh, we're all in this together and we're all kind of doing it together and contributing alongside each other. >> Jeniffer: And you talk so much about community too, and how important it is to find your community. And that's when you start developing relationships that open doors and show you places maybe you didn't know existed. One of the things you talk about is how you wrote to. I'm forgetting her name now, but you offered to be a reader for.
>> Chad Thompson: Oh, Janice Lee. When I was writing do reviews. HTML Giant. >> Jeniffer: Yeah, yeah, yeah, say it again. I interrupted you. >> Chad Thompson: I was reading a lot of small press literature at the time and I stumbled across this website called HTML Giant, which pret. Big and like the alt lit scene at the time, the Internet literature sign, scene. And I realized that that was a place where I wanted to contribute to and be part of the
conversation. So I wrote to Janice Lee, who was the reviews editor there, and I said, could I please review some books? I just want to be part of the conversation. I know people need books reviewed so maybe I can do this. I had no experience whatsoever doing it. but I reached out and she sent me books. You know, she engaged in this real act of trust in sending me books to review and then publishing the reviews. And I did about a million of
those over the course of a couple years. And I think she realized that I was a person with a lot of time in my hands and a lot of excited energy about the literary world. And so when she started a new website called Entropy, she asked if I wanted to come on board, be an editor for the site eventually. and that's actually what got me into this work around submitting, I ended up helping to assemble this list called the where to submit list, which was a seasonal list of all the places that
were open for submissions. And it was this kind of snowball effect right, where I got involved and I started contributing my energy. And then all of a sudden, to my surprise, I had presses and literary magazines emailing me saying, hey, can you put us on the list? We want to share our submission calls with other people. And then I had writers being like, thank you. And even years later, there are people who remember that resource and say, oh,
that was such a service that you compiled that. So it was kind of this beautiful moment where just reaching out and offering one thing and asking to be a part of the conversation bloomed into a much bigger thing. >> Jeniffer: Yeah, yeah. And that's the piece that was so beautiful for me is like, go out, find your people. And in most local communities, I mean, here in San Diego, I'm the co founder of the San Diego Writers Festival, because we wanted to build community. That's why we
founded that festival. And we get so many volunteers and so many people that, like, meet each other and open doors, opens doors, and it's such a beautiful thing. >> Chad Thompson: It really is amazing to get together, especially in person, with folks. I was living through the Internet for so long, partially because I was living abroad or I didn't live in geographical locations where there was a lot of stuff going
on. But when I finally came together in those physical communities, I was like, oh, this is the most amazing thing I've ever experienced. And I. I did the same thing I did in that email response to Cutbank, which was be a huge fan and be extremely excited to the point where probably people thought I was, like, maybe a little overexcited or maybe they thought it was cool. I'm not really sure how they were perceiving me, but
I was bringing a lot of fanboy energy to the table. So I'd go up to the tables where these small presses were sort of sharing their wares, and I would say, oh, my gosh, this press. I love essay press. I love to see what you all are doing. Like tarpaulin, Skyp press. Oh, my gosh. You affected my aesthetic as a writer so much. That's. >> Jeniffer: It's so cool, though. They must have been so happy.
>> Chad Thompson: I think they were. Yeah. And that's the amazing thing about the community for me, is that it's happening kind of quietly. Right. Especially because we're doing literature. It can be this sort of quiet thing, but simply by virtue of just Reading books and sharing the same conversations around pieces of literature that we're reading.
Sometimes there's maybe a hundred people who read a specific book or there's, you know, a few people who read a specific issue of a literary magazine and keyed in on one piece in that literary magazine. And sometimes the smallness of that is really beautiful because you become really tight by virtue of having that shared reference point. So that's something that really helped me a lot to come to the specific conversation around literary magazines and small presses too.
>> Jeniffer: You recommend that, you know, find the magazines or the online journals that you love the stories and then follow the stories. You know, the authors whose stories you like the most, where else are they writing? And then, you know, subscribe to those and, you know, volunteer if you can get involved. And this is such amazing advice. In fact, Chad and I work with authors, so we help people get
published and we help build author platform. And this book is really kind of a masterclass in how to build an author platform. You know, establishing goals and building community and why are you doing what you're doing? And then, you know, make relationships and it's so good. One of the things I loved was you talking about social media and you know, it can become a vacuum and take away,
take away your joy, really. But talk about how you've used social media and managed to keep it from like, overwhelming what you really want to be working on. >> Chad Thompson: U, I don't know. I think I have to ask you all about that too. Right. It's a perpetual struggle. It's so impossible because these, these algorithms that are made to exploit your attention.
>> Jeniffer: Yeah. >> Chad Thompson: And then even people's content that you ultimately want to see feeds into those algorithms by virtue of how it's organized and stuff like that. So to some extent there's no way to get out of that. And you just have to limit your time and yeah, be really strategic about how you engage with it. But I think the leading ethic for me really has to do with not seeing those
relationships as exploitative. Right. Like, even if there's sort of money changing hands behind it and you know, meta trying to make money off of us on Instagram or whatever it may be to let your own ethic not be about making a quid pro quo or not making kind of a deal, not having it be a business decision, but rather it being like a personal decision, a personal relationship. That's kind of how I try to end conduct it.
When I hear words like platforms sometimes I'm like, ah. Because that's the thing that people ask for in query letters and things like that. And it. It makes people want to sell your book. Right. They can sell copies. They can sort of move copies of a book. Or networking is a word that always felt, like, not super great to me. Yeah. And I know y'all are doing it in super exciting, super interesting ways. And this probably the same ethic I'm talking about
here. But sometimes I feel like that language can become a little bit more like money changing hands, or I'm getting something from you and you're giving something to me. and I like to think about it really on a human level. Like, I just want to connect with people. I want to have a relationship. And the work isn't. That's not a means to sharing the work. It's actually sharing the work as a means to getting to the connection with other people. So I try to have the connection be the end rather
than selling the work be the end. And I think if you're on social media, that's a thing that you can do that can make you feel a little bit better about it. Like, hey, we're navigating this weird quasi wasteland of digital technology. And we can do it in a way where we have a shared ethic and we have a, shared investment and having relationships with each other instead of just having everything be commoditized. But I'm super guilty
of it, too. You know, I'm always trying to hype my book and share the message with people, and I want to do that because I think the message is important and I want to sort of celebrate myself. It's, like, important for me. And I hope it's important to celebrate this conversation for other people, too, because it honors so many of the communities that have been influential to me in the past, and
it veers into hype so easily. And so, yeah, we just got to be vigilant at those edges and always come back to the place kind of where our hearts connect rather than, whatever it is our pocketbooks or whatever is meant to be changing hands according to the corporate overlords. >> Jeniffer: The corporate overlords. And you're right. You're absolutely right. And I
couldn't agree more. People think of it as, you know, a commodity when really, if you think of it as a genuine relationship and sharing with people who care about the same things you do. And, you know, my branding work with authors isn't about, you know, how can we get you, you know, how can we hype you the most? It's more like where do we want you to be, where you're going to find joy, what's really sustainable, you know, and we talk about, budget. Like, budget isn't just money or
time. It's your emotional bandwidth. You know, you don't have to do everything, but you need to choose something that really provides. Joy is sustainable. You know, that you enjoy the process and you're meeting people and building those relationships. And I think that's what platform is now. You know, platform used to be you have 10,000 followers on Facebook. Well, no one cares. And those people aren't buying your books anyway. Right. Like it'keeping your visibility alive.
Yes. And it's important. But. But really what's important is those relationships in that community. And that's why I think your book is such a masterclass on author platform. Because it's really not a commodity. It's a relationship. It's a process of understanding why you do things and who is the person who's looking for that thing that you're doing. >> Chad Thompson: Wow. I love how you framed that and how you described your own work within it. Because platform becomes community. Right.
It becomes like an end in itself, which is the thing we're kind of all seeking. And I didn't think about it as kind of like a deep connective work when you're helping people work on that, but I love hearing how you frame it that way. >> Jeniffer: Well, thank you. I appreciate that. so I want to go back to the writing. One of the things you dig into is the revision process. And, you know, when is it done and when do you decide I need to shelve it or do more work on. So kind of like, take us
through how the submission process can help. You know, where you're at with the piece. >> Chad Thompson: Absolutely. And maybe we can describe it as the rejection process. >> Jeniffer: There you go. There you. >> Chad Thompson: Rejection process at the stage of the game. Right. you start sending stuff out. I have a long history with kind of navigating different relationships to rejection. Right. And many of us start really taking those rejections
personally. And then they get a little less personal over time because you realize you just get so many of them. It's not really a personal judgment on your work. And more recently, I've evolved into having a more dynamic relationship with rejection that helps me figure out how much I care about a piece. That's how I like to frame it to people is if you can really pay attention to rejections and specifically pay attention to your own responses to them, that can play
a huge role in how you respond to your own work. So ideally, your work is extremely revised. When you send it out, you've read over a million times. Right. But you can always read over a million more times. So in my case, at least I'll get rejections back and it'll help me realize,
okay, do I really care about this piece? Is this something I want to continue to pursue in terms of revising it even more and continuing to send it out and experience you, the rejections associated with that and the difficulties of figuring that out logistically? Or is it something that I want to let go of? Right. And if it's something I want to hold on to, that's really good information for me. It really inspired me to stick with certain projects that have meant
a lot to me in the past. one example is I've done a lot of writing about having ibd, Crohn's disease, ulcerative colitis, which I feel is this kind of undiscussed or under discussed conversation, among chronic illness and disability conversations, because it involves poop and it's kind of gross and people don't know how to talk about it and stuff like that. Right. and so I have this kind of personal
investment in making that a thing that people can talk about. And so when I got rejections for that work, it was a moment when I had to look at myself and say, okay, do I care more about what this person thinks about this work, or do I care more about what I think about this work? And I realized I cared more, cared about what I thought about that work.
So it allowed me to come back to it, keep revising, keep looking at it, keep changing the framing of things, and just keep doing that until the project is successful. that's publishing with literary magazines, like shorter pieces from that work, as well as sending out the
full book. Earlier on, I had written short stories that I feel like were fun and we're a little experimental and me playing around with things, but after a certain number of rejections, I got the information that I felt like I needed to get, which was these aren't that fun. And maybe they're not that fun for me. Right. I don't need to continue dumping energy into them because the particular narrative here doesn't mean that much to me.
So I think it can really help you figure out what means the most to you as a writer. >> Jeniffer: One of the things you talk about is journaling your feelings about those rejections. So, yes, this whole concept, you know, I'm a big fan of spreadsheets and tracking data and figuring out where we are and keep. We're not losing track or doing the same thing
over and over. And you talk about having almost a journal for the rejection process as a way to stay connected, to know if the p. How important the piececes to you, you know, where you are in your teier structure. Like it keeps you moving, it keeps you doing something. And I loved ablly, but. But it was more than data. It was like, how did this make you feel? >> Chad Thompson: Exactly. Yeah, because we can get into these Excel spreadsheets,
right? I don't even use an Excel spreadsheet. I totally think it's great when people do. I think it's probably really organized, but I like to have a giant messy Google document. This just kind of a bunch of words and you know, I make the re the rejections red and I make the acceptances green. And, and then after I get a response from somebody that I don't like, you know, I'll write a note that's, you know, it's far from journaling.
It's more like, what the heck is going on? I don't even know what they're doing. Trying not to select this piece. You know, just whenever I need to get out of my system or if I have an acceptance, you know, something I'm really excited about, I'll kind of hype myself and give myself a lot of positive self talk to keep myself going,
you know, and whatever I'm working on at that time. But I agree, it's a really beautiful opportunity to reflect on what you want to do and the reason that you're publishing. Right. And to come back to that question of why that's inspiring all of this work. Because again, it's so easy to just get lost in the sauce and end up being like, okay, I got to submit it to this place and I got to figure out what I'm going to do logistically with
this, that and the other thing. And if you can stay connected to that, why and to the heart work of it, you know, it'll make you a lot happier in the process and also help you figure out what you need to do next. >> Jeniffer: Exactly. So cool. I love it so much. Let's talk about positive rejections. What the hell does that mean? >> Chad Thompson: That was the other thing about rejections that I should have mentioned too. Positive rejections are when somebody sends back a
note. Usually you get a rejection that just says, thanks so much for sending this, but we can't publish it. Sorry, we don't have time to Give you more feedback, but a positive rejection. This beautiful thing is when somebody sends you a rejection that says, no, we can't publish it, but we did really enjoy it and, you know, we appreciate you sending it. We'd love if you send more writing in the future, something like that. It usually includes a positive comment on the work and invitation to send
more in the future. And these things come along every once in a while. They're more common than acceptances. And there's something to take really seriously as a writer. They give you a lot of information about what's starting to stick with editors. And it's a real investment from editors on behalf of your work. Right. It's them saying, we really believe in what you're doing here. This particular piece didn't click, or maybe you didn't landy the ending or something like that.
But we really want to see more of your work, and we really like what you're doing. So it's a really big encouragement to keep going. And if somebody sends that to you, I think they're really serious about it. As an editor myself, when I would send those letters, I was like, I really want to make sure we see something from this author in the future. Because you're seeing them at a moment in time when they're still creating work and they're still making things, and, you know, the next
thing is going to be even more exciting and. And you get to sort of be a part of that as an editor. So it's like the beginning of this relationship. Right. The beginning of, like a sort of a small community, relationship between you and an editor. When somebody sends you something like that.
>> Jeniffer: You made it really feel so human, I think, which is something that, you know, going back to the beginning of this conversation, the process of submitting your work and getting rejections does not feel human. But when you think of that editor, you know what they're doing and what their goals are. We all have the same goals. It becomes more of a community, a relationship. And I think the journaling piece of it in the tiered system, it like, brings it all together.
And that is so uplifting in this way that I didn't expect, like, oh, my gosh, I'm so excited. I want to start the process now. I don't want to wait. >> Chad Thompson: That makes me so happy to hear. I really appreciate that. >> Jeniffer: Yeah. >> Chad Thompson: Because I think the language, even in these positive rejections can really ab. Obscure that sense of human connection.
Because they're form letters a lot of times, even when they're positive and they'll have this kind of language that says we're sorry we can't provide more detailed communication around this, you know, and you can tell it was sent to multiple people. And it's so easy to lose track of the fact there's that human element in it. But I think if we can keep track of that and just remember that there is somebody on the other end
who's super excited about language. You're on the other end, you're really excited about what you're creating and what you're reading. Then you realize, okay, all that language that is between us, that sort of more standard language, these sort of form letters, these are just a passageway through which our excitedness moves.
>> Jeniffer: Let's talk about submission fees Ca because you talked about subitable and the fees and you know, a lot of these literary journals, they are not making money know, and they have to pay for subitable. So can you kind of talk through how the process works? So we, you, those of us submitting to understand why am I paying fees to do this? >> Chad Thompson: Absolutely. So in the old days people were sending in mail submissions with anssayse, a self addressed stamp envelope in which they
would send you back your rejection if you got a rejection. And you know, it cost maybe two or three bucks, whatever postage was at the time to mail that submission in. So you were kind of paying for the process that allowed you to share your submission with, with the place that you sent it to.
Now there's this organization, SL platform called Subitable that charges really a good amount of money to platforms like literary magazines, small presses, lots of other places now that charges a lot of money to these places and that cost often gets passed along to writers. So writers will often have to pay submission fees. A lot of small presses also use submission fees as a way to drum up money for their publications. So they'll charge you $20, $30 to submit
to a contest. The upside is if you win, you get maybe $1,000 or $2,000 and a book publishing contract. But if you don't win, you just gave them that money, maybe you get a free book out of it, maybe you don't. and it's something that as a thing that small presses sometimes do. And some small presses
say absolutely what not, we're never going to do it. I just gave a short talk with an organization called Authors Publish who refuses to list venues that ask you for submission fees because they don't think writers should have to pay to submit their writing. And when I was doing these interviews with small presses for Entropy back when I was also assembling the where to submit list. I Talked to like 200 and something presses
over the years. And many people were also very vehement about not wanting to charge submission fees because they didn't believe that that cost should be passed on to the writer. They thought if you're a publisher, you should pay for everything and that's the way it should work. I'm not sure how I feel about that. I'm curious to know how y all feel about it. But it's important to know that it's out there. Right? And it's important to know that the reach of your submissions can increase if you
are okay with paying submission fees. And it's important to know that it can cost a ton of money because getting an acceptance can take a lot of submissions and a lot of submissions can add up to a lot of expenditure on those submissions. >> Jeniffer: You know, this brings us to the conversation of privilege, which I was very impressed that you brought up. The this exists in publishing, whether it's, you know, can you
afford submission fees? But talk a little bit more about why you decided to include, you know, privilege and how that affects publishing. >> Chad Thompson: Absolutely. I always start with my own self when I'm talking about privilege and publishing and writing.
I think one of the things I mentioned in the book is my own submitting practice was definitely affected by growing up as a white, relatively wealthy kid, raised as a boy, you know, in Ohio and Cincinnati where I grew up, and having a lot of confidence, feeling like my stories automatically mattered. Right. Like I was getting a lot of validation from the world that I deserve to tell my story no matter
what. So when I started writing, I felt like whatever I wrote was probably going to be awesome and I could send it out. I wouldn't be wasting anybody's time. And I think I overs submitted quite a lot. And I think it can be common for people who have some level of privilege, you know, different intersections of identities to have that sense of overconfidence and maybe send
out a lot of work. The vita count was this important count of literary magazines and who's published in them that identified how many men are published in comparison to women and non binary people. And of course found that way more men were published because there's just this massive, privilege differential and differential and kind of discrimination.
>> Jeniffer: But meaning, like, but I was just going to interrupt you and say but it's meaning that they submit more like they submit m their work even if maybe it's not ready like women wait and polish. And so it's a self confidence thing which I guess comes from this feeling. >> Chad Thompson: Of privilege that's kind of how I'm tracking it in my own life. I, I don't want to say how every single person,
where that's coming from for every single person. I think it's also the editors are disproportionately going to be white, and disproportionately go going toa be men. Right. And so they're selecting things that they personally resonate with. It's this incredibly systemic thing that travels through, the entire
publishing industry. So I'm kind of talking right now about how I see it in relation to my own past submitting practice and how I kind of had to learn about that and realize myself and pull back and have like a lot more humility about what I was doing. But yeah, it's really pervasive in the entire publishing landscape. And I think there have been conversations about especially the racism of publishing and the inequalities with regard to race.
Like in Big five publishing, there's been attempts to deal with that and then failures to deal with that. And because it's such an ingrain system, it continues. But that extends into small presses as well. Right. It takes a lot of resources and it takes a ton of time to run a small press or literary magazine. And not everybody has the ability to give that kind of labor. Right. And not everybody's chosen by the institutions to do
that. So it's really important to acknowledge that that's real and to acknowledge that there's incredibly vibrant communities of writers of color, editors of color, for example, or women writers, women editors, trans and non binary editors and writers. They have all these great organizations that are collecting around
those identities and creating a lot of great work. So even as we identify these shortcomings of the system as a whole, I think it's really important to note and remark on the communities where it's really dynamic, how people are engaging with that. Right. And how there's a lot of safe spaces out there. >> Jeniffer: I think a lot of it has to do with reach too. Like'it's hard to reach the communities and say, hey, we want to hear your voice, we want your stories.
>> Chad Thompson: You know, and who the we is and who the who's being reached out to is is also complicated. Right. in big fiction, this book that was published by Dan Sicin recently about the way that big five corporations, publishers, became conglomerates over the course of the Years. I think he talks a little bit about the strangeness of, you know, largely white editors, like curating a sort of quote unquote, multicultural list of
writers for their press. And I think it's a really good mission, but it's also, you have to think about who's publishing what and who you want to be in charge. Right. Does that get at the question that you're asking, too? >> Jeniffer: No, totally. >> Chad Thompson: The we. Who's the they? >> Jeniffer: Ye. >> Chad Thompson: And, is it about bringing people into a conversation you're already having? Especially, you know, in my case, if I'm coming from a place of
privilege? Or is it about identifying the fact that there's already a conversation out there that's happening and I'm not at the center of it? I don't need to be at the center of it, and I can just listen, amplify that conversation and choose that as, like, a conversation that I engage with, as opposed to needing to center myself within it or something like that.
>> Jeniffer: Well, you brought up authors published earlier, and, you know, I'm a huge fan of that organization, and I tell all of my clients to subscribe to their newsletter because they do put out a weekly newsletter telling you places that are, you know, accepting submissions, contests, they're free. And a lot of them do, in fact, you know, specifically seek out those bipoc, Latinx, you know, diaspora voices. and I think that's so
important because it's. If you don't know your story is needed, you're less likely or wanted, you're less likely to try and find a place to submit to. >> Chad Thompson: Yeah, that's absolutely right. I mean, I come at it from my own perspective, you know, in the areas of privilege I was talking about, but also as a disabled writer dealing with, you know, the stress of, chronic illness and. And Crohn's disease
and things like that. And it's meant a lot to me when people have specifically made spaces for that. >> Jeniffer: Right, yeah. >> Chad Thompson: Organizations for disabled poets, for example. there's groups of, you know, kind of loosely organized writers who have chronic illness that share reading lists and are coming together to have
related conversations and things like that. And it's really meaningful to find those communities and realize that there's a space where you don't have to be the only person bringing that perspective to the table. Right. It's a perspective that's being shared amongst a lot of people. And then you can start from way
further ahead. Instead of catching everybody up on your identity or catching everybody up on your experience, you're all coming from the same place, and then you can just go from there. >> Jeniffer: This comes back to community, right? Finding your community and feeling part of a community and lending your voice to the conversation. And I think that's a beautiful thing.
>> Chad Thompson: Yeah, I agree with you. I agree with you. If we can find it. You know, it's increasingly a struggle in life these days, but I do think, for me, that's what I want to find. Not just as a writer, but as a person. You know, I want to connect with people, and I want to connect on the basis of shared experience. I also want to connect by sharing experiences that other people don't have. And I want to have these moments where, you know, we're just talking, which is kind
of what we're doing right now. I think that's what's so magic for me about this book. We get to not only, you know, have this conversation that's pointing back to the stuff we're talking about, but we get to enact it. You know, we get to say, hey, this is happening right now. We're having this conversation, and we're getting at some deep kind of soul stuff. And it's
hard to give language to that. Right. Because it's ethereal. But I also think it's really beautiful when we try to do it in a collective space. >> Jeniffer: I want to talk about you and your writing. I went and listened to some of your poetry and, you know, read some of your work. And what I found, the through line for me, is that you really share your personal, you know, very intimate experience of life. And I found that really, true to how to submit as well. You know, that comes across in
a nonfiction book as much as it does in your. Your poetry and your short stories. But let's talk about how, you know, your disease, Crohn's disease, has affected your writing and how you see yourself in the literary space. >> Chad Thompson: Oh, my gosh. Yeah. That's a really deep and awesome question. You know, I think it comes from all the repressing that
I did of it for a long time. Right. I'm from Cincinnati, and, the modus operandi that I was raised with, I don't know if it's my family or the larger culture or even beyond the Midwest or what. But it's just if you have feelings, if you haven't experience, like, you probably don't want to share it too much because it's going to stress everybody out, and, you know, it's probably better off repressing your thing and just keep your head down. And
work hard. Right. And, you know, I can see why that sort of ethic developed. But it was also a thing that led me to not be super vulnerable in my life and led me to, you know, just try to pretend like everything was cool most of the time. So everybody I knew my whole life thought it was this incredibly chill person. I have long hair, you know, I used to like to wear tie dye shirts a lot. I guess I still do. people thought I was really relaxed, and I was like, no, inside I'm losing it
because, you know, I'm just not showing you. And so I think for me, the process of coming to writing and coming to the specific stuff I'm communicating about in the old days, it really wasn't that vulnerable. And I think that's why those early short stories, for example, the experimental stuff I was talking about, wasn't that vulnerable and didn't click that much with people because it didn't have that vulnerability. Right. But as I've
gotten older, I've realized how. So almost the fundamental thing about connection for me is sharing parts of yourself that are a little bit of a risk to share. Right? Like saying things that really mean something to you. And it's hard to go to that vulnerable place. But that's actually, in a way, like my definition of strength. Like, how vulnerable can you be and still be okay? Right. Like, still hold yourself together. Still working on that theory. But, if
you can exercise that vulnerability, I think it opens you up to people. And for me, it's almost like it's like the currency of relationships, without making it a monetary metaphor. It's like this thing that we all use to connect with each other. And it's when I feel like I really meet somebody where they are. We can both be vulnerable in a shared way. >> Jeniffer: When we're thinking about the written word, the experience is so different for the person who's
writing it. And they put. I think we're trying to figure out what's happening internally on the page and for the reader, but they're feeling, oh, my God, I'm not alone. That's why memoir to me is so compelling. And I'm really curious, actually, if you're going to write a memoir at some point, but. But like the experience. And you talk about this in your book, how to submit as well. You know, think about
what the reader is getting from it. You know, who is your reader and why are you writing this for them? And when we. When we start to think of that experience, like, for the reader as well, as us, as the writer, it takes on a whole new life of its own. >> Chad Thompson: I think that's a beautiful way to think about it. I do remember the first time I read David Foster Wallace's Thing about writing makes us feel less alone. I don't
think he's the only person to say that. but he was the first place where I encountered it becausee I wrote my undergrad thesis on him. >> Jeniffer: Oh my gosh. Impressive. >> Chad Thompson: Stereotypical white man. You know, it was like totally a classic narrative, becoming a writer. You know, I have long hair now. It's almost like two on the nose. glasses. I don't. I mean, I do, but I don't wear them just to avoid, any and all comparisons.
>> Jeniffer: Yeah, you're a much happier person, I would think. But yeah, well, that's a thing. >> Chad Thompson: I totally agree. I mean, I don't know if I know anything about, you know, his own interstate or anything, but like, that aloneness, you know, I think it seems like it was hard for him. And anyway, I don't need to talk about David Foster Wallace, but I do think that this question of connecting with the reader is so essential. Right. And I think that's what we're trying
to do in our work. Right. I'm always trying to think about that. And I think, particularly for me, it comes out in revision. You know, I almost have to pretend people aren't there when I'm writing because I can't even be that vulnerable with myself. I have to just be alone with something to be able to say something that's really hard to say. But then in the process of coming back to it, I can give a little bit of shape to it.
I can make it into something that I feel comfortable with sharing with people. Maybe take out things that are too vulnerable. and I haven't figured out yet. Right. So I have a little control over it. And that, that makes me feel safe doing it. But yeah, the magic is really just being like, I am going to share this with people. This is a story that I want to tell and that I care about. And and I think seeing those in person communities that we were talking about.
When the page or the online experience transforms to actually sharing something in real life, those are the moments that have meant the most, me as a writer. Like, I remember reading some of my story or my, essay. It's not how to subm M. Excuse me, Reading some of my essay. The Last Remedy to a Room Full of People when I was in Denver. And it was this experience of reading it, not knowing if people werenna like it or care about it or really see
the experience that I was talking about. It was all about, like, when I eat, I feel really anxious because I know I'm going to have to go to the bathroom a million times. And what I eat really changes my mental state. And I just have all these difficult experiences around it. But I'm afraid of talking about going to the bath, et cetera. And everybody lives sat there and listened. And I was
like, I don't know. Did that work? Was that a moment of connection or was it a moment of like, I'm just going to be embarrassed. But then people came up to me afterward and they told me, wow, that really resonates. You know, I. I deal with this ex. Chronic illness or whatever. >> Jeniffer: Yah. >> Chad Thompson: And, it became this moment of realizing, hey, a lot of us are
in the same boat in different ways. And opening up in that type of vulnerable way can really be a mode of making lasting relationships with people. So seeing that in person and really accentuates all that you're saying for me. >> Jeniffer: Absolutely. I wonder if you record a lot of your conversations. >> Chad Thompson: Wow. Like conversations with people. >> Jeniffer: Yeah. In real life, but like your loved ones, because. And, here's why. Maybe our listener needs some. Why is she asking that?
There's this one piece that you read in one of your interviews, and you were re in bed. You had had a terrible experience with your Crohn's disease that day. And your wife, her name is Theory. Is that right? Yeah. Hello, Theory, Shout out to you. >> Chad Thompson: Yeah. She's an amazing writer. Theory Moja Mian to definitely check her out. >> Jeniffer: You'll have to, spell that for us. >> Chad Thompson: I will. right now you can send it.
>> Jeniffer: To me and I'll just put it in the show. Notesah. I'll do. So you're in bed with her at the end of this really long, hard day, and you're having a conversation. And I know you recorded it because you told us. >> Chad Thompson: Yeah. Honestly. Wait, what? I'm totally blanking on. >> Jeniffer: It was the piece where you were having blood drawn. And the blood. The doctor said there's just no more blood in that vein. And then
it went to the other. He went to the other vein and you squeezed your fist and then I think you passed out. >> Chad Thompson: Oh, God. >> Jeniffer: Yeah. And it's. >> Chad Thompson: Yeah, yeah, you gotta leave me through it becausee I'm totally. There were a couple times when something like that happened and I'm trying to remember. >> Jeniffer: Oh, my gosh. >> Chad Thompson: Wait, where did you find this piece.
>> Jeniffer: You were reading it. It was during COVID and you were reading a piece with a lot of other people. And I forget who was hosting it, but you were talking to Theory about ghosts. So it was based on, you know, that it was a piece actually from Ghost Home, A Beginner's Guide to Being Han. And I think you were talking about your sister at one point. But were. You said that you had recorded conversations with your mom and your dad and theory. And
in this particular conversation, you were talking about, like. Like the deep self and like, when we don't feel like ourselves and is that a ghost? And it was this, like, really personal conversation that you were having in bed with your wife after this day of, like, horror for you. And, it was so generous to the reader. And I wondered, like, you recorded that conversation. So of course it begs the question
for me, is that something you do often? And is that how you get so much intimacy into your writing? >> Chad Thompson: Wow, that makes me want to record more conversations. Because that piece was like a gift. It was one of these things that arose, and I just started writing it as a break from other stuff. I was like, I can't write this other stuff. It's too stressful. I'm just going to write this piece about ghosts and my stomach and I need to
say it, and who knows what will happen? And, I just wrote that piece and I wrote the first couple halves of it. And then I realized I needed something else. I needed other people's voices. And that's what inspired me to have the conversations with people. So I interviewed my dad, interviewed my mom, and interviewed, had a conversation with Theory. And that was the only time I've ever done that. >> Jeniffer: Oh, wow.
>> Chad Thompson: It was, also the only time I've ever reached that depth of vulnerability in my writing, to be honest. And I think it makes sense that that comes from having those conversations with other people and opening up that space to a reader. That's a really beautiful observation that I never even really thought about with regard to my own work, you know? Cause it's so
difficult to find that. And I think with that particular piece, you know, I wrote it in a period of a couple weeks, did it really fast, and I didn't even need to revise it that much, ca. Because it just was what it was. Mostly I revise ton ton, ton. I'll revise for weeks if I write a piece. And I know I need to do a lot on it. But this particular piece, it just came and it was there, and it was. >> Jeniffer: What it needed to be.
>> Chad Thompson: It was what it needed to be. Yeah. So in a way that's because there was such a direct access to the reality of those conversations in that piece. it makes sense, but I need to record more conversations. You know, the only other time I did that went was when I recorded kind of a conversation with
myself. I was doing a lot of running at the time and I recorded myself talking for an eight mile run, describing what I was thinking about and what was going on in my mind during the run. And I was going to intersperse it with this description of my relationship with my dad, who's also a runner, and my
relationship with running as a thing. But I think theiacy of recording things really does lend like an openness to the moment because you can't edit it, you can't mess with it, it's just right there. >> Jeniffer: Yeah. >> Chad Thompson: And, in a way I was talking about revision, you know, being kind of like a safety mechanism for when you're doing something vulnerable. But you can't really revise the conversations, can you?
>> Jeniffer: No, you can't. You know, I find that interesting because sometimes when I go on walks, long walks, I want to record myself and I find it to be so uncomfortable and forced. Like my brain doesn't work the same when I'm speaking into recorder as it does when I'm thinking. So when I'm walking or I'm in the shower or and I'm doing something where I can't do anything else, that's when I get all these ideas for story. I mean, they just like flow like I've opened up a spigot, a
fire oose. And yet when I try and talk them, to retain them, it just doesn't work. >> Chad Thompson: I know what you mean. I feel like the thought, the imagination is so pure, in a sense, it just happens. There's nothing standing in the way. But the second you try to articulate it, like words get in the way. >> Jeniffer: Of I'm like, oh, that sounds dumb. >> Chad Thompson: I know, it's kind of brutal. And then if you try to write it down, it sounds even worse.
U and I feel like writing for me is the process of figuring out how to not let all that stuff get in the way. Right. Like, how can you pretend like you're not writing? How can you pretend like you're not talking? And actually, something I recommend to students is to do that exact thing, even though you described how hard it isus it really is, is if they're stuck on a story just to take a tape recorder and just tell the story. This guy does this thing first, and then they run into
this, that, and the other thing, and then they fall in a hole. And if you can just speak something out loud, it's kind of a no pressure situation. I actually make my students on the first day of class tell the story, like, out loud for five minutes to one of their peers. Yeah. And everybody's like, no, that's the. The most difficult thing ever. Yeah. But then I do it for them, and my story's terrible, and it gets us all kind of opened up and makes
us vulnerable. But that's. It is an opportunity to connect you with a thing. But I agree, there's no substitute for thought. And the magic of the shower. It's just like so many great novels have been written in the shower. It never appeared in the world. Right. If only we could harness that energy. >> Jeniffer: Well, it makes me think that I need to do it more. As I was telling you that, I was like, God, that just means I needed to do it. I need to
force myself to do it. Cause I think there is some magic in it. >> Chad Thompson: Well, our, three and a half year old is obsessed with stories, and he just wants to hear us tell stories all the time. So I'm in a very, like, oral story storytelling mode right now. It's almost like my form of writing and Theorory's form of writing as a writer as well. And, you know, he has the good fortune of having two, like, professional storytellers, you know, telling him stories all day.
But, a lot of them are based around Frozen and the characters from Frozen, you know, Olaf and also stuff like that. But it really is nice when you can sort of cultivate. Cultivate that relationship of your imagination to the oral storytelling, like, to speaking things out loud, because it flows the more you practice it. Right. >> Jeniffer: Yeah. >> Chad Thompson: Suddenly I can tell these stories that are incredibly winding and borderline coherent that just come off the top of my
head. Right. And it's partially just about taking my foot off the brakes, letting whatever happens happen. You know, if an ice monster needs to come in and bite everybody's head off or whatever, it's okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's really magic to kind of open up that vein in a way and just. Just kind of, like, let it happen. >> Jeniffer: And I think if we were to think of our storytelling as speaking to a three and a half year old, we'd probably have a lot less judgment of ourselves.
>> Chad Thompson: N. Totally. Yes. It's a no stake situation, you know, except maybe he'll get upset if I make something so silly happen. You know, like there's a little bit of stakes, but I agree. I think if you can just envision yourself talking to somebody who really wants to be entertained and really wants to be loved, you know, in a way, the story is a way of giving love to that person. >> Jeniffer: Totally.
>> Chad Thompson: That really takes the pressure off and you realize that whatever you're giving, it's a gift. >> Jeniffer: Wow, that is so cool and a really good way to end this amazing conversation. Thank you so much, Dennis. I am a big fan and, I can't wait for everyone to read your book. >> Chad Thompson: Thank you for joining USK so much, Jennifer. Yeah, I just loved having this conversation as well. I feel like we got to some really deep stuff and it's just so fun to talk to you about it.
>> Jeniffer: well, I really appreciate it, listener. You can learn more about dennis@, dennisjamessweeney.com Follow him on Instagram denisjsweeney. You can subscribe to his substack, which I plan to do, see what he's reading on Goodreads and buy his books. Go out and buy this man's books. We need to support each other and, you know, give that love as we want to receive it. This has been another
episode of the Premise. You can visit us online, ah, @theemisepod.com and subscribe and rate or review the Premise wherever you get your podcast. Those reviews really help us get the word out and increase our sccriber base. So we really appreciate it. You can follow me, your host, on Instagram, Jennifer Grace, or follow me on Facebook at Jennifer Thompson Consulting until next week. Thanks for listening. Goodbye. Goodbyebye M.