>> Jeniffer: Hey there. I'm Jennifer Thompson. >> Chad: And I'm Chad Thompson. >> Jeniffer: And this is the premise where we get to the story behind the storyteller. This is our sixth season, folks. Six seasons. It's so excitingiting. >> Chad: Can you believe it? >> Jeniffer: We've got a really amazing season lined up for you, so let's dive in. Deborah Rudel lives in San Diego, where she is a college professor and participates in her city's
vibrant writing community. She is a graduate of Hayous Writers Workshop and the Certificate in Memoir Writing program at San Diego Writers Inc. Her work has been published in the International Memoir Writers Association's anthology Shaking the Tree. I didn't see that one coming. Debeorah lives with her black cat in a tiny house built in 1906 by a retired sea captain. Well, that's appropriate, isn't it? Who carves a sailing ship into the front door.
Grit and Grace, the transformation of a Ship and Soul is her first book. Deborah, thank you so much. And welcome to the premise. >> Deborah: It's an honor. >> Jeniffer: You know, this book was so fun to read because we know each other. We were in a writing workshop together and gosh, how long have we known each other? Like maybe seven, eight, nine years? >> Deborah: 2016, 2017. >> Jeniffer: I think that'I. Think that's about right. Yeah. So congratulations, number one, on, on the writing
and the publishing of this wonderful memoir. And I'm excited to dive in. Before we do that, let's talk a little bit about Grit and Grace. The title, it's such a compelling title. And I'm just curious how you came to. Was it easy? Did you, like, have a lot of different options or where did the title come from? >> Deborah: The title was actually my working title. My original working title was the Elixir Project. >> Jeniffer: That was the name of the boat. Your sailboat.
>> Deborah: That's right. And early on, someone mentioned to me that the Elixir project didn't mean anything. That wasn't a very good title. So I switched it to Grit and Glue because I thought that was the most fitting. Those were the most fitting two words to use. And it wasn't until I was publishing and my publisher was speaking to me. And, I had wanted to put grit, glue and Grace, but it was too hard to say all those cheese. >> Jeniffer: Say that three times fast. Yeah.
>> Deborah: So I wanted Grace in there because, yes, there was lots of sanding, there was lots of grit, inside of having to deal with different things, but also the grace that allowed me to get through the whole part of my life that I, that I speak about there was a lot of I even magic, you know, that I, wouldn't have probably survived if there wasn't somebody watching out for me. >> Jeniffer: Wow. And the book starts out in a moment where there's definitely someone looking out for
you. So I want you to take us to that moment. But I think before we do that, we should tell our listeners what this book is about. So it's really kind of two stories in one. You' I want to say fixing, but that's just not the right word. There's this thing that Chad always says. If you completely replace everything on a boat, is it still the same boat? Right. >> Chad: The ship of Theseus. >> Jeniffer: Exactly. So you literally
replaced everything on this boat. So we're weaving through this process and then this incredible journey on the sailboat with your family. But at the same time, we're going back and forth between that story and the story of joining Nicolt, your spiritual journey. And this book really is about. It is about grit. It is about grace, you know, in sharing this incredible journey of just the seeking that you're. You're going through this entire time as you're bringing us
through these. These two. So I want you to take us to the beginning of the book, but I'm going toa hold on that. How did you know that these two stories needed to be told together? You know, as opposed to, like, writing the story about just the boat and writing just the story about the experience with the cult and the seeking the spiritual side? What made you decide to put them together? >> Deborah: I'd have to go back a little bit because I didn't decide that that wasn't a
decision early on. As a matter of fact, when we were building the boat, I was taking pictures and documenting the befores and afters, to make articles for Wooden Boat magazine. So they were technical articles, and that was why I had so many photographs of this whole project. And then when I joined San Diego Writers, Inc. I met with someone and she said to me, is this a photojournal or is this an actual story? Do you have a story to tell?
And at that point, my heart started beating really fast because I realized I was going toa have to tell the truth. And if I told the truth, then that would mean I would have to actually write a story. And I didn't really see all that entailed. I just knew it made my heart beat faster and my hands get a little bit sweaty. So then she introduced me to Marnie, and I went to the
memoir classes. And it was in the memoir Classes where I was writing about sandpaper and different kinds of paint and what size, drift bolts, ettera, etc. And my writing group, their eyes would glaze over and they would say, but, Debbie, where were you? What were you feeling? What were you thinking? About what? What's your story? >> Jeniffer: Yeah, I remember that. >> Deborah: You do? Yeah, yeah. And I was like, well, what do you mean? You know, I
was, you know, in a cult. And you were like, what? >> Jeniffer: What? >> Deborah: Yeah. >> Jeniffer: Wait, wait, wait, back up. >> Chad: I led with that. >> Jeniffer: Yeah, yeah. >> Deborah: to me, it was just sort of, like, ordinary. But I realized by watching all of your faces that that probably wasn't so ordinary in. So I would have to credit my writing group for pulling those bits out that part of the story. And then actually, the whole technical aspect kind of faded into the
background and became footnotes. And then it became like a glossary at the end of the book. >> Jeniffer: Right, right. >> Deborah: So the book really did transform and go through its own metamorphosis. >> Jeniffer: And your subtitle, you know, the Transformation of a Ship and a Soul. I mean, it really. That. It's pretty beautiful that you have these two things that are happening simultaneously as we read the book. Obviously not in real life, but really, you are going through
transformation. You. Both of these. It's kind of a perfect fit, interestingly. And coming to that conclusion was there that moment you were like, oh, my God. Okay, I see. I see how these fit. >> Deborah: I don't know if it was a single moment. I think it grew. It kind of grew and evolved also. However, what grew and evolved was my understanding of how much my soul changed As I wrote, I had more epiphanies, more understanding, more realizations
of, wow, okay. And I was able to integrate and put into place more of the things that happened inside. >> Jeniffer: Interesting. Isn't that amazing? I think that's true when we're writing memoir and we're going back and placing ourself not just in that memory, but, like, the emotions of the memory, you know, and we're experiencing it all over again. And we do. We have these epiphanies like, oh, that's probably why I behave that way and why I did that. And we come to this greater understanding.
>> Deborah: Yeah. And. And in. In my case, while I was building the boat, I was part of the time in a funk a little bit, because it wasn't really my dream until partway through and I write about that. It was my husband's dream, and I just thought it was a crazy scheme and a waste of money and time. >> Jeniffer: He did A lot of scheming. >> Deborah: A lot. Yeah. Ah, there was a lot
there. However, as time went on and then as I started writing about it, I started to realize just how much, I was actually thinking about things and growing and learning and as I said, integrating. >> Jeniffer: Yeah. Wow. Okay, so let's go to the beginning of the book. There's a scene. I'm just gonna let you describe it. Tell us what's happening in the beginning of the book. The opening scene.
>> Deborah: And this is the opening scene because I think this was the strongest moment in my life to date of when I was really up against life and death. So when I started writing, this is the moment that came to me to start writing. So I'm in the middle of the. Well, not the middle. I'm five days north of Kauai. It's the middle of the night, I'm in a gale. So there's really high winds. High winds don't just blow. They also make noise. A lot, A lot of noise. So you can't talk, you can't hear
anyone. And the motion of the boat is so strong that you have to be hanging on. You can't walk, you can't stand, you have to be hanging on and tied on. So it's very physically extreme. >> Jeniffer: Yeah, sounds like it. >> Deborah: And when you're on watch while there was somebody else on deck, they were sleeping in the cockpit. I was the one on watch. And so you're alone in the dark and you don't want to wake somebody up for no reason. Like you're terrified, so you're going toa wake someone up.
It wasn't like that. It was like learning seeing my terror, using all my spiritual tools to calm down, breathing, self talk, relaxing, faith in something bigger than me. All these things. Nothing worked. I was terrified. And my mind was really starting to think about really terrible things like drowning. >> Jeniffer: Sure. >> Deborah: And at that time then I had, what I call like a vision. So I didn't really see anything, but I sensed things on the rail.
And to me those were angels and they were just laughing and having a good time. And I was like, what? It was such a change of a vibe that they were putting out and yet I was terrified. But, there was a distraction there. And also the part of my mind that knows about psychology knows that people in life threatening situations have things happen to them. Their mind does things to help them get through those tough times. So I was aware of that even at the time.
Wow. And yet I was like, well, whatever, it's going to take, you know. Thank you. And these beings on the rails were just laughing and assuring me that the elements were just frolicking. There was nothing malicious or malevolent about this storm. These waves, this incredible wind, the noise. It was just the elements playing. And if you look at it as playing instead of, you know, oh my gosh, something's out to kill me. >> Jeniffer: Right. >> Deborah: It's a very different. A very different
feeling. So that was how. That was the beginning of the book. Was that the question you were asking? >> Jeniffer: Absolutely, yeah. This moment where you take us, I mean, it's. It's like life or death in this moment. Like we're in it and. But then you manage to calm your mind and reading it, it's like you see something on the rail and we're not sure if you actually see it. You tell us they're not really there, but you see them. So you know, we're, we're with you. And then it, it passes.
>> Jeniffer: And everything calms and you're on your way. Yeah. >> Deborah: Dawn comes. >> Jeniffer: Yeah. >> Deborah: We forget when we're in. No matter what it is in life, whether you're feeling sick or you're in bad pain, or the world is coming to some kind of a crisis. >> Jeniffer: Yeah. >> Deborah: We, always think, oh, this is forever. We forget that. Things change. >> Jeniffer: This too shall pass. >> Deborah: This too shall pass. And the morning came. So it
got lighter. So you could see the wind died down. So I could hear a little bit more than just the roar of the wind in the rigging. Yeah. >> Jeniffer: Now there's another moment. I don't want to linger too much on the boat, but there's some spooky things. I don't know if that's the right word, but there's some things that happen in the book. And one of them, is that Toashh is literally tossed out of the sailboat.
And I want you to describe the boat. Like I keep saying boat and I don't think that's like a fair word. So I want you to tell us what it's like. But. So he's in another gale. He's literally tossed out into the storm. >> Deborah: Ye. >> Jeniffer: And then what happens? >> Deborah: And, for this one, I'm onlynna say what I heard because I was trying to catch sleep. No. >> Jeniffer: So you were down below. >> Deborah: I was below. And we had three hour watches. So you had three hours to shut your
eyes. So you did what you could in those three hours and then you're back deck or whatever was needed next. And I came up from My trying to sleep, and my son and my husband were in the cockpit, and before I could even say hello, you know, like, good morning. What's the weather doing today? My son was all excited. Mom, you should have seen it. Tasha washed overboard. Like, he was so excited to tell me. And my husband, who was really, really quite seasick, he was,
like, really out of it. He'd been sick for almost three weeks, so dehydrated. A lot of weight loss. He can hardly talk like that, kind of seasick. And he. He says, we promised we weren't gonna tell her. He didn't want you to know because they. Well, he knew I'd be pretty upset, and I was. I was pretty upset. >> Jeniffer: But he was tossed back in by a wave. Is my understanding is that he, like, was tossed out and then literally tossed back in with the next wave. He wasn't rescued.
>> Deborah: So let me. Let me go back a little bit to this storm to help help your listeners understand, understand this picture. So it's hard to put in words if you haven't been at sea, but the waves are very large. Like, our spreaders were, you know, 50ft high. The masts were 65ft tall. So when the boat is on a heel, it's on a slant. When I look to my left side, the wall of water was higher than my masts. >> Jeniffer: Wow. Okay. >> Deborah: And when I'm looking up there, remember, this is in a
gale. It's daylight. The sun is shining, but it's also cloudy, and the wind is blowing big, big masses of foam off the tops of the waves. And the sunlight is shining through that, and there's rainbows everywhere. >> Jeniffer: Oh, my God, it sounds amazing. >> Deborah: And remember, you can't hear anything because it's so loud. And so I looked up to my left, and the dolphins were jumping out of the wave above my head, jumping back into the wave and then going under elixir and coming out
the bottom. So elixir is in the middle of this face. That's massive. >> Jeniffer: Are you sideways? >> Deborah: we're, in a way. We're at an angle. >> Jeniffer: Yeah. Okay. Okay. >> Deborah: We're at an angle. And when you're. When you're doing that, you. I mean, it's just so big. Your brain is, like, fried. You just can't believe you're there and you're just getting through each moment because any moment could be your last for real.
>> Jeniffer: Wow. >> Deborah: So anyways, what happened with that wave was the top of one of those waves came straight down into the cockpit. So it filled the cockpit and washed him Out. so we're all tied on. So he had a tether. >> Jeniffer: Okay. >> Deborah: So he was hanging from his tether over the rail and his feet were above the water because remember, you're sideways on this face. >> Jeniffer: Oh my God. >> Deborah: And Gavin tried to grab his jacket and pull him, but he was too heavy.
>> Jeniffer: Sure. >> Deborah: Even though Gavin was 15 and man sized, it was just, you know, dead weight hanging on a rope. But then the, the next wave came and the water came up from the bottom, picked him up and threw him back in the cockpit. >> Jeniffer: Oh, God. >> Deborah: So does that give you a better idea of what that was like? >> Jeniffer: Well, it does. I didn't realize he was tethered.
Oh, I imagined him like out there in the ocean and then all of a sudden the ocean's like, no, you can go back now and like him just being. But you know, this is my ignorance of not..ing sailboats. >> Deborah: No. As soon as you leave the dock, you put a tether on and the only time it's off is when you're below decks. >> Jeniffer: Got it. >> Deborah: Sunshine, flat sea, stormy sea, doesn't matter. >> Jeniffer: And before this, you'd never done sailine or how'you been sailing?
>> Deborah: We'd been practicing sailing around the Hawaiian Islands. >> Jeniffer: But before that, before you got the elixir. >> Deborah: Sailed a couple of times on Kootenay Lake, which is a, 90 mile long lake. >> Jeniffer: Yeah, yeah, that was it. >> Deborah: In little boats, you know, 25ft long. Yeah. >> Jeniffer: So Tash decides, well, okay, we're gonna buy the sailboat. And it's, it's a fixer upper, baby. We're just
gonna go do this thing for six months. For six months, and then sail around the world. So you, you get to the. >> Chad: Makes sense. >> Jeniffer: Right, Right. As anyone would do. Tash is a very interesting character because he takes on. This isn't the first time he'd done something like this. There was the homestead that you describe cleaning this place. That was like almost better to burn it to the ground. Same with the elixir. Almost better to just burn the thing to the ground, like. But
for him, it was like a challenge. And being in a challenge kept him alive and excited. >> Deborah: Yes. >> Jeniffer: Which also probably explains how you ended up in a cult. >> Deborah: Maybe. >> Chad: That was a hell of a segue. >> Jeniffer: Well, I mean, explain yourself. Yeah, right. What do you mean by that? It was exciting. It was different. It felt like something bigger than him. And I think that's, you know, and he was a dentist, like, so
he's in this very, like. I guess this is probably really unfair to all of our dental listeners. But, a mundane profession, you know, where you. You're helping people and you're doing the same thing every day and reaching into people's mouths. And he just needed more excitement in his life. Whether that was completely revamping, ah, an old homestead and making it livable again. And then once it was, he's like, okay, well, now let's go do something else.
>> Chad: I mean, most dentists take up photography. >> Jeniffer: Yeah, right. Or hunting, I don't know. >> Chad: Or blues guitar. >> Jeniffer: W. Now that's oddly specific, Chad. >> Chad: Well, that's like the guitar circles. Like, the blues dentist is kind of. Kind of the guy who goes out and buys the most expensive, Gibson. >> Jeniffer: Or whatever I've heard Harley's too. A lot of Dennists ride Harley's. Okay, so maybe there's something about Dennis
that, like, their're adventures. I don't know. But TSH was absolutely an adventurer. >> Deborah: Yes. And. And I forget what the name is. When you're. When you go off and do your own thing and you just. You're rebellious a little bit. I don't know if it's maverick or, There's a word for that. I don't know what it is. But yeah, he just likes to. He sees something and he'll go for it. And he's still doing that. >> Chad: That's called no impulse control. >> Jeniffer: Maybe so I canate. Maybe so.
So there's so many things I want to ask you. I don't even know where to begin. Let's talk about the spooky things that I. That I mentioned earlier, because I think that kind of leads us into some things. So there's a moment in the story where he says he's going to India, he's following a particular guru, and correct me if I use the wrong terminology. >> Deborah: That's correct. >> Jeniffer: Okay. And you're like, I don't want to do that. So you decide. Also an adventure,
listeners. I'm gonna do my own thing. So how old is Gavin at the time, too? >> Deborah: He's two. >> Jeniffer: He's two years old. Okay, and you decide to go to. So tell us, like, what made you tell a story of how you decided to go on this adventure? >> Deborah: Well, he wasnn to go and find his teacher and his guru in India with Rajnesh in Puna. And Rajnesh was too radical for me. >> Jeniffer: Okay. >> Deborah: I thought that that was too radical. So I was going to have my
own teacher. M. So I had a dream, and in the dream I was told that I did have a teacher and that I Needed to spin the globe. So I spun the globe and where my finger landed, I would go there and I would meet my teacher. So I spun the globe and it landed in Belize and San Pedro Key, which is in those days. There you could get there by float plan, like a small one, like, you know, a Cessna. There was no big planes there. >> Jeniffer: People weren't going there all the time.
>> Deborah: No, there was no streets, There was a couple of rooming houses. There was no English spoken there. there was a few sort of stores. They were people in their basement had a few groceries or things, but there wasn't even any stores or. Yeah, it was, it was very, rudimentary. >> Jeniffer: And tell us what year this is. >> Deborah: This is 1979. >> Jeniffer: Okay. Okay. So you pick up your two year old son and you go to Belize and then you take this Cessna to the small key.
>> Deborah: M. >> Jeniffer: And then what happens? >> Deborah: Well, I didn't realize it, but it was a holiday thing going on there. And lucky for me that I met these fishermen guys that used to meet every year in San Pedro and one of their party hadn't been able to make it for the trip. So there was an empty place in the Cessna and then there was an empty hotel room. It's not really hotel. a room and a rooming house. >> Jeniffer: Oh, wow.
>> Deborah: Okay. So, if I hadn't run into them, I would not have had a place to stay because in those days there was no Internet. You couldn't arrange things ahead of time. Yeah, yeah. So I was, that was huge. to me, that was, visible. And I knew it at the time that I was being guided and I was being told to go here and do this and look, I'm taking care of you. >> Jeniffer: Nice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's time to go. You have, it's time to go and you can't leave because planes have been
grounded. And so you have one more day and you're on the beach and you close your eyes and you have a vision. Tell us what it is. >> Deborah: It was kind of like that. I. I was doing my rebirthing meditations most days when I could, I'd set Gavin up with his Legos on his bed, his little cot in our room, and I would lay down and do my breathing exercises. And this day I did that. And now remember, I've been there for six weeks and I've been expecting to meet my guru teacher and I haven't
met anyone. And I'm thinking, well, I guess just being here is my teacher and this is it. So Anyways, I go into my meditation and while I'm in my meditation, I actually astral travel to India. And I'd never done that before. I didn't have any experience of it. But I was all of a sudden in India and I've never been to India, I'd never been to Puna. I didn't know about the ashram or anything. I see Tosh, I see his girlfriend. >> Jeniffer: Which is a little upsetting because.
>> Deborah: Well, except for that's what's odd about when I was in that meditation. >> Jeniffer: And they're not married at this point. Listeners just so you know, their boyfriend and girlfriend living together. >> Deborah: Yeah. >> Jeniffer: Okay, go on. >> Deborah: I, think because when you're in that state, it's not your personality. So any kind of personality or attachments that you have. This is just my thinking about it.
I don't really know about astral traveling, but you're just open and observing and paying attention to what's happening. So I was observing. He was very happy. She was very happy. I knew her name, I knew she was German. I knew all kinds of things. I saw what they were wearing. >> Jeniffer: and all the people in the. >> Deborah: All the people in the ashram. And while I'm there, I catch eyes with Bhagwan and have like a darshan with him. >> Jeniffer: What is a darshan?
>> Deborah: That's like. Do you know what shaktipa is? >> Jeniffer: Nope. >> Deborah: There. Those are sort of Hindi words for some of the energy transference that happens between people that have healing powers or spiritual people or there are moments that are very powerful. Energetic, energetically. So. He was looking across the room. I caught his eyes and I went into. I had a moment, well, another in hi word like a satori. >> Jeniffer: Or like an enlightenment almost.
>> Deborah: Well, I didn't get enlightened, but I had like, I was in this space of having, just feeling amazing and connected with everything and feeling so much love. And then the, the other thing that happens is that your eyes run because your emotions are all connected and it's, it's the love in your heart sort of. You're just overwhelmed with love. >> Jeniffer: Yeah. You describe it as like this complete and all encompassing feeling of peace.
>> Jeniffer: And you're looking into the eyes of this person and of course you're in Belize and he's in India and aren't the opposite each other on the globe. Is that right? >> Deborah: When I, when I got home from that trip, I looked at the globe again and, and it looked like if I put a needle through a globe From Belize and San Pedro Key, specifically, it would come out exactly in Puna, which is like. >> Jeniffer: Okay, okay. >> Deborah: I thought that was. Wow. Okay.
There's. There's many things we don't understand, but as we are learning more about quantum physics and we're learning more about the energy fields on the earth, like we're measuring all this, the geologists, the scientists are all over it. these things do have explanations, but my brain didn't know them. It just knew that this is what was happening. And I didn't really even have words. >> Jeniffer: But you felt it. >> Deborah: I felt it. And I felt it so strongly that there was no doubt.
>> Jeniffer: Yeah. >> Deborah: You know, I couldn't doubt myself. >> Jeniffer: Yeah. Well, and then you get back to the farm and Tasha's back, and you tell him what you saw, and he's like, yeah, my girlfriend's name was Anna. >> Deborah: Yeah. >> Jeniffer: Yeah, she's German. And yes, those are the clothes we were wearing. And yes, that's what it looked like. Was that a surprise to you or did you know? You already knew? >> Deborah: I knew, but I have to say that it was validating.
>> Jeniffer: Sure. Yeah. >> Deborah: You know, and the other thing was that I had written it all down in my journal at the time. >> Jeniffer: Yeah. >> Deborah: So when I saw him, you know, six weeks later, however long it was, because again, we didn't have phone calls, we didn't have cell phones, email. You don't see anyone for that long. And, I was able to show my journal in and say, okay, yeah.
>> Jeniffer: Here'S what I saw. Now, you know, curiously, you decided to stay with him despite the fact that, you know, he had a girlfriend. And why? >> Deborah: Well, in Pona, there's. This is. One of the reasons I didn't want to be with Rajesh was because he's very open with relationships. >> Jeniffer: so tell people what col. We're talking about the Rajesh, the full name of it and where it was. >> Deborah: So I was in Rajnesh Purham in Oregon, which is in central Oregon, near Bend.
and we had a ranch there, and we turned it into a city, and there was 10,000 people there. We was the full infrastructure. Airport, airplanes, road system, all the electricity, the sewage, power, water, everything was. Was set up for. >> Jeniffer: For a big city, which is incredible. And every. You started with nothing. You started with. >> Deborah: Right. Dirt ranch. Yeah. >> Jeniffer: Oh, it was a ranch. Okay. So there was a building. Okay. And some fences there. >> Deborah: There was a barn.
>> Jeniffer: This is a well known cult. There was a Netflix show about it. >> Deborah: There is. >> Jeniffer: I forget the name of it. >> Deborah: Wild Terr. Wild. Wild Country. >> Jeniffer: Yes. Wild, Wild country, which Chad and I both saw. Well, you know, well, before, I knew I was going to be interviewing you. This was several years ago. We saw, >> Chad: And I'd known about them years prior. I. You know, I'd run across them on podcasts and m. Discussion about it,
so. And really, all I can remember at this point is, like, the highlights are poisoning a salad bar. >> Deborah: Right. >> Jeniffer: M. And then it was a sex cult. >> Chad: And the Rolls Royces. >> Jeniffer: And the Rolls Royces. >> Chad: Yeah, all the Rolls Royces. And, the fact that they brought in homeless people to take over the city council. >> Jeniffer: That's right. To vote. Right? >> Deborah: Vote. >> Jeniffer: Yeah. Which was pretty clever. yeah.
>> Chad: That's like the weirdest form of gerrymandering, but, yeah. >> Jeniffer: Right, Right. Hey, it works. So you were not necessarily enamored with him right away because of, you know, you'd heard about the open sexuality and. >> Deborah: Yeah, I liked my relationship. I didn't want to share. >> Jeniffer: M. Right. Yeah. >> Deborah: And I knew that if I was involved with that, that that was one of the ideas I had about life that I would have to be flexible about. >> Jeniffer: Yeah.
>> Deborah: And. And that was. That was hard for me. >> Jeniffer: And you were flexible. And so I think what's really fascinated about the book, you know, and reading it, is all these decisions you made to go to the cult or go to Rajesh. What. What is the proper name to call it? Rajesh. >> Deborah: Rajesh Puram. >> Jeniffer: Rajesh Puram. In Oregon. >> Deborah: In Oregon. >> Jeniffer: Okay. >> Deborah: Which was only, like, 600 miles from the farm that you had mentioned earlier.
>> Jeniffer: Yeah. >> Deborah: Yeah. >> Jeniffer: Now, before we go to the cult and before we go to Rajesh Param. Let's go back to Canada. >> Deborah: Okay. >> Jeniffer: Because you and I have a connection. >> Deborah: Okay. >> Jeniffer: Kind. There's a couple connections that you and I have, actually, and one of them is Ainsworth, Hot Springs. >> Deborah: Okay. >> Jeniffer: So as a child, I was probably seven, which would have made it 1977. We would go
to Ainsworth all the time. And it's one of my favorite memories as a child. >> Deborah: I had no idea. >> Jeniffer: Right. I know. I couldn't wait to tell you. >> Chad: Do you remember meeting any dentists there? >> Jeniffer: Right. I know we should have, because my dad would travel to Mexico to get his dental work done at the time. And here we're living. We lived about 45 minutes from the Canadian border and, you know, up in the Pacific Northwest in Washington State, and sometimes
northern Idaho. We kind of went back and forth, and dad had bought property up in Canada near Ainsworth. I've got some great photos. I'll have to show you if I can find them. And Ainsworth was like this incredible place where there was a pool, a public pool, and these caves where the hot springs were and there were no lights back in the 70s. When was the last time you went to Ainsworth? >> Deborah: Last year. >> Jeniffer: Oh, my gosh. Okay. I really want to go. It's so different now.
>> Deborah: Like, it's like 10 miles from my family cottage where I go every summer. >> Jeniffer: Okay. >> Deborah: To be with my mom. >> Jeniffer: Okay. >> Deborah: And it's just down the road. So on rainy days in the summertime, we go there. >> Jeniffer: How different is it now? >> Deborah: It's pretty different. It's actually been taken over by first nations peoples. >> Jeniffer: Okay. >> Deborah: And has a new name, which I. It's really long, so I can't. I can't say the name in the proper
language. But, it's. Yeah, it's different. They keep the pool very nice, very nicely. The water's clear now. It used to be cloudy. You couldn't see through the water in the pool. >> Jeniffer: Totally. Yeah. >> Deborah: In the caves there are lights, but the caves are pretty much the same. >> Jeniffer: Wow. I have to go back. >> Deborah: You have to step very carefully so you don't trip. >> Jeniffer: It's very slippery. >> Deborah: These caves are shaped like a U, so you go
in one end, right. And around, and there's all this. Stalactites are coming down from the roof, but they keep them trimmed off so you don't bang your head m. And you can see all the mineral deposits as they come down the sides of the cave. >> Jeniffer: Yeah. >> Deborah: And the water is up to your waist when you walk through this place. So. And that water is cloudy, so you can't. And it's dark, so you can't see to. If you're gonna trip over somebody's feet.
>> Jeniffer: Which you do often. Yeah, yeah. >> Deborah: Or bumpy bits in the bottom of the. Of the roadway there. >> Jeniffer: And why were you there? So you would travel from the farm to Ainsworth and you were doing some meditation. There was something that you were doing. >> Deborah: In the 70s, there was someone named Leonard Orrr who was from Northern California, and he taught rebirthing. M. Leonard or has since left his body. He's not with us anymore.
>> Jeniffer: Okay. >> Deborah: But he taught this breathing practice, which in. When I researched it, it's a form of. In the ancient traditions, Pranaya Yoga. So learning to use your breath to have journeys, to find out more about yourself, to prepare your body and your cells to be at a higher vibration. There. There's a lot. There's a lot to this whole science of the Breath. So in the late 70s we were, we took courses with him and he came up to Canada
and gave these courses. So, my husband and I and some of our like minded friends all got together and would do these retreats to do breathing. So the first one was at Ainsworth because we had the hot water, we could breathe in the water and we could breathe dry, which would be in the hotel rooms. And then later on we did the retreats at the farm. >> Jeniffer: Okay. Yeah, yeah. And this brings me to our third really spooky thing that happens in the book where
you. It's sort of like a, hypnotic state when you, when you're doing this breath work. Right. And Tosh is guiding you and you find yourself in pyramids. >> Deborah: Okay, so I'mn toa go back a little bit. >> Jeniffer: Okay. >> Deborah: Yeah, we did the rebirthing and then, a lot of our. We were working in dentistry at this time. And at this time in dentistry a lot of people wanted alternative things. >> Jeniffer: And you were his dental assistant just to. >> Deborah: And I ran his dental office.
>> Jeniffer: O yeah, yeah. >> Deborah: So people didn't want necessarily to have anesthetic or they wanted some kind of relaxation technique before we worked on them rather than taking Prozac. >> Jeniffer: That's so cool. We need that today. >> Deborah: Yes. And he trained, he did, professional training and hypnosis. So we were, we had the hypnosis, but we had done the rebirthing. So one of the things. It wasn't rebirthing exactly, it was actually hypnosis and it was regressions.
And we did that not for a sensational thing. Oh, I was this one. I, it was more like, what is it in my past life that is affecting this life and holding me back from my full potential? What is it? Is there something I need to know or you can show me that would help me in this lifetime? So that was the intention going into these regressions. They were, they were done, very mindfully. >> Jeniffer: Yeah, yeah.
>> Deborah: So, yes, I ended up doing my first regression and I ended up, a very long time ago and my body was in a pyramid and my body was mummified. >> Jeniffer: And describe that like you could. Was it like you were seeing the scene, you were seeing yourself there or you in the mummified body. >> Deborah: And how, how it is in a regression, how it was for me anyways, is I was there. I was there. And the brain, and I'm speaking, but my brain can only describe it. It can't
decide what it is. Like for example, when he said, look at your feet, and I said, I don't have any feet. And that didn't make sense to him. >> Jeniffer: Right. >> Deborah: And, and he said, well, look, what are your legs look like? And I said, black sticks. >> Jeniffer: Yeah. >> Deborah: So I couldn't, I didn't know I was a mommy like thatew that later. Yeah, I had to be and hang out there. And the other thing was I wasn't actually in that mummified body. I was hanging out beside it.
>> Jeniffer: Okay. >> Deborah: But staying that pyramid because that was my belief in that lifetime. And what I learned from this too is that beliefs are so strong that I wasnna stay with that body until that body came back to life. That was the belief 4,000 years ago of, the people that were in the priesthood and the people that were, you know, they were well enough known and rich enough and to be mummified. Yeah, yeah. >> Jeniffer: It's like our cryogenics in the futures.
So. And did you go and do some research about that, you know, the priests and priestesses of that time to kind of see or did you already know about this? Because I had no idea. >> Deborah: No, I, I didn't. I knew just from ancient history class, you know, and in Canada we do take, the ancient history a little bit. And I didn't know that, you know, that what the training, like I had been trained as a priestess, you know, in ancient. I was actually Greek and then had been sent to
Egypt. And I didn't know about any of that yet. Ah, that was something I discovered as I was exploring that life. But the most important thing really was that belief systems are so strong that you will. It's amazing what you'll do just to stick to your belief systems. M so in this lifetime, how I've used that is seeing how, you know, we're conditioned certain ways and we don't even realize we have that conditioning. Yeah, you know, it'it's. Like that story
about the fish swimming in the ocean. Do you know that story? There's fish swimming along and one fish looks over at the other two fish over there and he says, so how's the water? And the other two fish look at him and say, what's water? It's so all around us, our conditioning that we don't really know. We, can't separate it from who we think we are. >> Jeniffer: Right. >> Deborah: So that experience was huge lesson in, in, in that and how we get very attached to these beliefs and
we don't know what they are. We have no idea. >> Jeniffer: Did it feel like an epiphany at the time, like when you finally understood it? >> Deborah: It did and it, it, it was very, very humbling to see because, you know, you think you're somebody. And in that lifetime I was somebody. I was someone very important. And yet I had this belief that was so crippling and held me in that place for a long, long time.
>> Jeniffer: And I sort of. The way I, when I was reading it, it was almost like part of you, your light was still back in that pyramid and wasn't allowing you to move forward in the way you're supposed to. You're meant to because of that past life experience and now you were able to release it. Do I have that right? >> Deborah: I hadn't thought of it exactly that way. So. Thank you. Thank you. That there is an element of that that's absolutely true. >> Deborah: Yes. Very good insight.
>> Jeniffer: You had to go back and rescue yourself almost so that this life you can have more insight. >> Deborah: Yes, yes. >> Jeniffer: This book is really about seeking, you know, spiritually in so many ways. You're looking for more meaning. And, and I think the way you describe it in the book often is, you know, there's got to be something more than these material needs that we cling on to, you know, in Canada and I think worldwide. But you know, especially
specifically Americans and Canadians. I think, like we live in a time where if I have a big house and I have the sailboat and I have all the things, I've made it and now that gives meaning to my life. And you knew, it seems like inherently you knew that that was empty and you, you were looking for something more. >> Deborah: That's right. And I think some, some kids are born like this and, and I, I was born like by 7i, as the oldest of.
And my home life in one way was the exact, you know, perfect life from the 50s and 60s M. But in another way, you know, I didn't like it. People didn't tell the truth. People did weird things that, you know, like I love you and yet they were spanking me. >> Jeniffer: Yeah. >> Deborah: You know, like, that's not the love. Like I knew that. >> Jeniffer: Right, right. >> Deborah: And, and so I was, I was very much questioning, like, what the heck, you know, this place is not peachy.
>> Jeniffer: There's got to be something more. >> Deborah: There has to be something more. But I also had the influence of my grandmother. So my grandmother was a yoga teacher in the 60s, which was very unusual. >> Jeniffer: Yeah. A white woman. >> Deborah: A white woman. And she, influenced me by giving me reading materials and talking to me. So the books, one of the biggest books, the biggest influence was Edgar Casey's book Actually, it's Gina Soneira's book about Edgar
Casey. M. My father's house has many mansions. And in that book, I learned about reincarnation. I learned about karma. I learned about souls and the energy, body, things that are bigger than what you can see and touch and taste. >> Jeniffer: And in your book, you talk about. I believe, if I have this right, that you felt like you needed to be like Jesus. >> Deborah: I absolutely did. >> Jeniffer: Where did that come from? >> Deborah: As a. in my. The way I grew up was with the
United Church of Canada. So it was a Protestant denomination of Christianity, and in that denomination, we had to go to Sunday school. But there was no personal connections, really. It was pretty intellectual, I'd say, compared, to Catholic Church, which has got all kinds of icons and things you can. Figures and personalities you can relate to. so I went to Sunday school. I learned about Jesus, and then when I learned about reincarnation, I thought, well, I don't want to come back
here 5,000 more times. You know, I want to be done with this place. This place sucks. And. And Jesus was. You know, he was the guy. >> Jeniffer: Yeah. >> Deborah: Right. >> Jeniffer: Right. Yeah. >> Deborah: So, yeah, I did have to go through a whole thing of the difference between being like Jesus, being Jesus, and being myself. And that took. Has taken me a lifetime. >> Jeniffer: Sure. >> Deborah: Basically, yeah. >> Jeniffer: So we're back at the farm. You've just returned from
Belize. Toash has returned from India. You now understand that you know where your guru is. And then Tash gets an invitation to join Rajneesh in Oregon. And he says, okay, I will come. And to be a dentist, join the city. And he says, I'll come if I can bring my girlfriend. Because at the time, you're still. You're still not married. Then they say, sure. And so you decide to go on this journey. You get there, and the first thing they do is separate you. >> Deborah: Yes.
>> Jeniffer: And yet you stayed. why? >> Deborah: Well, first of all, from what I. We just talked about a bit ago, having a very strong desire to do everything I can in this lifetime, to wake up as much as I possibly can. >> Jeniffer: Because you were seeking. You knew there was something more. >> Deborah: I knew there was something more. And I knew that if I just stayed in what I'd been born into, I would be still swimming in the water that I couldn't see.
>> Jeniffer: Yeah. >> Deborah: So by putting myself in a different situation, in a different ocean, a kibbutz ocean, which is where the men have the place that they live, the women live in another section, and then the children are in another section, and that. It. Life is not set up like it is in our world here, where we have our individual nuclear families and we go to the job every day and we deal with our own money and we make all these decisions. It was set up very differently.
>> Jeniffer: And you really must have had a lot of faith in the establishment that you were part of. And you describe it as like, we're changing the world like this. We're doing something that's going to change humanity forever and make it better. And what really was your goal? Were you hoping that the rest of the world would. Would feel this love and this. I don't know if you were seeking enlightenment, but it felt like it. And you know, you and Tosh both say at one point,
like, we're doing this forever. This isn't just we're gonna do this for a couple years, but this is forever for us. >> Deborah: Yeah, it was forever. It was totally forever. And. And yeah, very altruistic. That was part of the 60s and 70s. >> Jeniffer: Hm. >> Deborah: To want to break out of whatever the establishment in air quotes was at the time. To live more than just this, narrow little life for me and mine. And. >> Jeniffer: Yeah. >> Deborah: And, and see the world bigger. We already were
knowing. We read Future Shock. We already knew that things weren't sustainable back then. >> Jeniffer: Yeah. >> Deborah: And we wanted to actually put our, our life where our mouth was and say, okay, we're gonna try a different way to live. We're gonna live in a place that's growing the food that is taking care of the land, that isn't using poisons and things, that are bad for our bodies and for the earth.
We want to live in a place where people are helping each other, supporting each other rather than being in competition. We want to live where we're, supporting each other's inner growth. We're all aware of each other's spirit and wanting to encourage that expression, the expression of the soul. Not just, oh, I have a bigger car than you, because none of us had a car. >> Jeniffer: Yeah. Well, you literally like gave up your lives and invested in the community. >> Chad: One of you had a car.
>> Jeniffer: One of you did have a car. Ra. >> Chad: One of them had a lot of cars. >> Deborah: One of them. Yes, but one had a lot of cars. >> Jeniffer: But Guan. >> Deborah: Yeah. >> Jeniffer: There's a moment and we all have seen photographs. Anyone who's familiar with Rajesh Param. Am I saying that right? >> Deborah: Yes. >> Jeniffer: Okay. Where he. Everyone waits on the side of the road and there's 10,000 people here. When you're
there. 10,000 people. I can't even imagine the energy that you must have felt in that group of people who were all thinking similar, similarly, you know. And here he comes in his Rolls Royce, which to me shouts, what the hell? Why is he driving the most expensive car he can possibly find? You know what I mean? Like the opposite of, like, getting away from materialism. And yet he's embodying that. But you didn't see that. No one else did. You saw love and peace
and. And something way bigger and something more. I was. As a child, I grew up in the Pentecostal Church. So I have absolutely experienced what it's like to be in a community where there is an energy that you cannot describe. That it's bigger than you. You can feel it. And I think we are getting answers to that through quantum physics, actually.
Interestingly. And when you were describing standing on the side of the road and seeing him for the first time, I mean, tell us, take our readers to that moment. Because it felt like you were, like, vibrating four feet off the ground. You were so happy. You felt nothing but joy and peace and excitement and talk. Bring us to that moment. >> Deborah: No, you're doing really well. >> Jeniffer: Stop. >> Deborah: It was like that. And I'm glad you've had that. So that in one way, it's difficult to
put into words. In another way, there's many things in this world. Like, for example, if you go to a big cathedral and hear a pipe organ play. >> Jeniffer: Yeah, we did music too. Totally. >> Deborah: Going to a rock concert and there's 50,000 people. And they're all in that music. In that song with those performers, there's something that happens to the group energy that is transportive totally. And the ecstasy is one of the things that they're doing a lot of
study in neuroscience now. What that ecstasy does to your brain chemistry. And by changing the brain chemistry, it changes how your brain actually works. Your frontal brain, your lobes, your temporal. All of those things have different things that work together to put you into that ecstasy. >> Jeniffer: Have you heard of Tom Campbell? >> Deborah: I don't know. >> Jeniffer: So he wrote, A. He's a physicist. He worked at NASA. He was recently on Joe Rogan, actually. >> Deborah: Okay.
>> Jeniffer: Talking about quantum physics. And he has a book called the Theory of Everything that I'm just going toa read here. That poses. Our reality is a virtual simulation where consciousness is fundamental and reality is created by information with experiments designed to test these hypotheses. It's pretty fascinating stuff. And I haven't read the book yet, I'll be honest, but I'm fascinating
by Tom Campbell. And this idea of Quantum physics and how it explains, like, there's so much we don't understand about the universe, and yet you and I have both experienced something that is so beyond us that, you know, there's something more. It doesn't. Doesn't matter if it sounds ridiculous to other people. And I know it sounds ridiculous to Chad, because sometimes he looks at me like, you, my wife is crazy. And
you don't say crazy. He's not that dismissive. But. But yeah, like, to experience him, like you said, like a rock concert. So many people in a room and that energy. And I know you felt it. And I don't want to actually give too much away of the book because I want people to read it and, you know, experience this with you. But, like, at what point did you feel like this isn't what I signed up for, like it was starting to break down?
>> Deborah: I would say that even if there were little warning signs, I had to go into denial because I had so much at stake. >> Jeniffer: You had a lot invested. >> Deborah: I had a lot invested. However, when Sheila left and then Bhaguan left, both in the middle of the night, a month or two apart. And this was in 1985, so I'd already been there for four years. That rocked everybody. So we had an instant wake up call.
>> Jeniffer: Yeah. >> Deborah: So even if we'd been putting stuff kind of in the back burner and. Oh, it's not that. Whatever. We had to wake up. We had to say, okay, this community is no longer happening. Now, if the National Guard hadn't come and invaded us and, shut everything down, like all our money and all of our, corporations and stuff were all frozen, locked. so we couldn't do anything. We couldn't just stay there without the leadership.
>> Jeniffer: Yeah. >> Deborah: Anyways, so it really was literally shut down. >> Jeniffer: But do you think you could have, like, if the National Guard hadn't shown up and Sheila and Bu. Buhwan. >> Jeniffer: If they had left, you think you could have, like, stayed and continued the dream? >> Deborah: I think that there would have been some people who would. And it would have kind of petered along.
>> Jeniffer: Yeah. >> Deborah: However, the main reason we were all there was to be with an enlightened master. >> Jeniffer: Yeah. >> Deborah: And by having a common thing that you're looking at that brings people together and keeps the unity. >> Jeniffer: Right. >> Deborah: So that you can get things done without a lot of different factions all fighting and arguing and deciding whose idea is better, which is. Yeah, we have a great example of that right now in our world. >> Jeniffer: Yes, we do.
>> Deborah: And. And we also. And this has been going on for quite a few years realizing, you know, even in our government, that things, when people are all having such polarized ideas, nothing can happen. Things just stay still. And not only that, infrastructure falls by the wayside 100%. So, so this is just a fact of, of how communities work, how populations work, how the world works. >> Jeniffer: And Sheila was really thrown under the bus. She was blamed for everything.
>> Deborah: She was. And, and Sheila was not a saint. I'll make that clear, however, by using blame. And, and I do talk about this in the story that as spiritual seekers, our goal is our freedom. And if you have any part of yourself that is looking to blame something or someone else for any part of your life, no matter how small or insignificant you might think it is, you are in bondage. You will not find your freedom. And if freedom is your goal, then you want to find those
little areas where you're blaming. So it looked very proper to just say, oh yeah, this is Sheila. It's all Sheila's fault. However, then what about me? I'm just going toa talk about myself. What about me? My goal for my personal freedom. I chose to be here. I chose to be part of this experiment. I chose to, take Bhagwana as my master and follow his teachings. And this is where I am now. What would I like to see going forward? You know, what's the next step?
And as long as I'm thinking, oh, someone else did something, I'm off the rails as far as my own responsibility goes. >> Jeniffer: And a lot of people, you know, friends of yours, continued to follow Bhagwan. >> Deborah: And to this day do. >> Jeniffer: Wow. >> Deborah: Yes. >> Jeniffer: And Bwan was sent, he fled to India. But he was never actually spent any time in prison, right? >> Deborah: He did. >> Jeniffer: Oh, he did.
>> Deborah: They arrested him on that eastern seaboard and then they put him in prisons and he was transferred from prison to prison to prison and then eventually deported. >> Jeniffer: Okay. >> Deborah: yeah. >> Jeniffer: What, what do you think went wrong with him? He, he did such a good job. I mean, clearly there was a connection. I mean, you saw in his eyes and felt him from across the
globe. He, he had 10,000 people following him and would literally and did literally give up everything, including their children. >> Jeniffer: So he had this power, like, what do you think happened? >> Deborah: And, and that's another sort of avenue or roadway that I, I try not to spend it at first. I spent a lot of time there. >> Jeniffer: Trying to figure it out. >> Deborah: Trying to figure it out. But that's his path. >> Jeniffer: Okay.
>> Deborah: That's his path. Fair and from my side. What I see is that as a spiritual teacher, he fulfilled his. His role. His role for me. Go ahead. >> Jeniffer: Do you separate his spiritual side, the enlightened side of him, and his human side? Maybe the side that, like, can't help himself. >> Deborah: Where I am sitting now, I can see that there's two sides. At that time, he was just on a pedestal. He was enlightened. He knew
everything. remember, back then, we saw the world very differently. We have a lot more understanding just generally, everyone. >> Jeniffer: Right, right. >> Deborah: You know, and an example of that is blame. We all know that word. We all know that we don't want to do that, you know, that we want to find a way, a different way. In the 70s, we didn't know that word. There was no such thing. The word was there, but it was, like, very, hardcore. Like, you kicked
that table, you put that denintt there. It was material, not the energetic kind of ramifications of blame. But now everybody knows that. There's books about it, there's courses about it, there's taking responsibility, all of that. But back then, our development wasn't. Wasn't there yet. We. We didn't have that understanding. And we forget that because we've been ye on the path. We've evolved a lot.
>> Jeniffer: Boy. Yeah. Right. And thinking of how much has changed since the 70s to now is pretty incredible. >> Deborah: And knowing that, you know, the energetic world is different than the physical world. M. You know, just. It was just kind of all a big mush. When I think back to my 70s self. >> Jeniffer: Yeah. >> Deborah: And that was one of the things that was very hard for me to learn to sort of differentiate and navigate. >> Jeniffer: Was there a point where you were at risk of losing
your. I almost want to call it this innocence, the seeking to find true meaning. Did you ever feel like you were at risk of becoming a pessimist? >> Deborah: You know, like, oh, my gosh, I totally did lose it. >> Jeniffer: You did? >> Deborah: I did lose it. When we left the ranch, I had to weear off anything spiritual. >> Jeniffer: Yeah. >> Deborah: Anytime my brain wanted to say, oh, God'll take care of that, or, have that nice, warm, fuzzy
feeling that there was something bigger than me. I had to stop myself. It was like cutting myself off from a heroin drip. >> Jeniffer: Wow. Wow. >> Deborah: And that's what it was to me. And this is another thing that happens to a lot of spiritual people. It's another form of a drug. >> Jeniffer: Yeah. >> Deborah: Because it kind of. You don't have to kind of deal with some hard issues. You don't have to deal with your own self. You can kind of put it off and say, oh, that's
spiritual. But you're avoiding a whole big mess of stuff. >> Jeniffer: Right. >> Deborah: so it really was very important. And that's why I think Bagwan was successful in being my master, because he kicked me out of the nest. Hard, cold, strong, you know, like real cold turkey. >> Jeniffer: What do you mean kicked you out of the nest? >> Deborah: Well, I couldn't be part of the commune anymore. I couldn't be part of the group anyore. >> Jeniffer: At the end of the ranch, yeah.
>> Deborah: I was on my own. I had to find another way. >> Jeniffer: You were all kicked out of the nest? >> Deborah: We were all kicked out, yeah. Some people, some people make. Made another nest just in a different place. >> Jeniffer: Right? Yeah. >> Deborah: So very, very important to really, look at, look at your spirituality, look at what your beliefs are and don't have any, you know, like, what did they call them? Sacred cows. >> Jeniffer: Yeaheah. I love using that.
>> Deborah: Be willing to just, you know, question everything. Don't have anything that if people talk about it, that they'all of a sudden say, oh, you can't talk about that. That's special, you know, like, well, then that means you better look there. >> Jeniffer: Yeah, right. But you did come back to spirituality. I mean, I consider you a very spiritual person. Do you think rebuilding the ship was part of that journey to find a different kind of spirituality and how you looked at life?
>> Deborah: I do, I do. And. And I think that having those four years and having the nature around me, I was, you know, in Kauai, which is a healing island, historically, was really, really important for me. And where I live now, in this house, I live now also very important for me. I've got wildness and trees all around me. >> Jeniffer: Do you live on a canyon? >> Deborah: It's not a canyon, but it' it's an undeveloped property with, you know, it's pretty overgrown.
>> Jeniffer: It's a great area. >> Deborah: Yeah. >> Jeniffer: Here in San Diego, we have a lot of canyons and a lot of nature that, you know, you wouldn't think that in the city. >> Deborah: No. Yeah, it's a blessing. >> Jeniffer: It s a blessing in writing the book. I know it was incredibly healing for you because we've already talked about that. But what do you want people to get out of it, Readers to get out of this journey that you took.
>> Deborah: I would really like for people to know that any dreams that they've had, no matter how crazy or insane or how much other people are saying, don't ever do that, or you can never do that m that they don't listen to that, follow your heart. If you have something you really want to do, you do it. And even if it's just a little step at a time, do it. And know that things happen that make it possible that you could never have thought up for yourself. >> Jeniffer: Right? Yeah.
>> Deborah: And I think that's important. And the second one is about freedom, what we were just talking about really. If you want your freedom and not everybody has this burning desire and that's okay. But if you do have that desire, take the time and the energy to go into self introspection, to, to expose yourself to different ways of thinking and put yourself in situations that make you uncomfortable. >> Jeniffer: I love.
>> Deborah: So that you'll grow a little bit and, and really find the areas where you're holding back and that you are bound to ideas, thinking, belief, lifestyles that aren't, aren't serving you. >> Jeniffer: Absolutely. That's beautiful. That's really beautiful. You said something earlier when you realize that maybe there was a story that you needed to tell and your heart started to beat faster and it's like your body knew, oh, this is going to be uncomfortable, but we're gonna do it anyway.
>> Jeniffer: That's awesome. I always tell my clients, you know, there's magic just past the threshold of your comfort zone. Just past that threshold. There's something special there. And if we can push ourselves just a little bit, we might be delighted at what we find. And you've done that your whole life. You know, you've been like, okay, we're, we're gonna do this and I'm going to put everything I have into it. And that's, that's really, that's really cool.
>> Deborah: Including publishing a book. I just have. >> Jeniffer: Including that, yes. >> Deborah: That this last year being on the publishing train has really pushed me beyond all kinds of comfort zones, I bet. Including speaking in a podcast or having my picture up places or. >> Jeniffer: Which is beautiful. I love your headshot. It's really pretty. >> Deborah: Thank you. Thank you. >> Jeniffer: Speaking of. Well, in your recording, your audiobook right now too, in your voice.
>> Deborah: I am. >> Jeniffer: Which I'm really excited. I think that's going to be fantastic. I mean, this is such a personal story, I can't imagine anyone else reading it. So I know you're pushing yourself because I know how hard it is to read an audiobook well. And I want to tell our listeners that you got to go to Deborah's website because there's so many photos that she said in the beginning you were documenting this, rebuilding this boat. And so you have. And
I Remember, I didn't know that. So when I was looking at the website, I was like, this is incredible. It's like you're documenting it. Well, you literally were. So that makes sense. >> Deborah: I was. >> Jeniffer: Well, thank you so much for joining us today and being on the premise. I really appreciate it. >> Deborah: Thank you for having me and thank you for your questions. They were very thoughtful, introspective, pulling things out, uncomfortable a little bit that we're
stretching, you know, ye. And finding words to say things that are, a little. We don't really have words in our vocabulary for some of the things and pushing the envelope there. So thank you. >> Jeniffer: Well, thank you. Thank you for being open to it. It, you know, the. Everything in this book is, is pretty incredible, you know, and so when, our readers read it, you're going to be like, oh, my God. The things you've experienced and the ways you've pushed yourself are pretty
intense, enlightening for sure. And I hope it does encourage people to push themselves a little bit. I think that's really, really, really beautiful. Well, listeners, you can learn more about Deborah Rudell on her website at do deborahruudel.com. we have how to spell that in the show notes. You can follow her on Facebook and Instagram. Debah Rudell Author, this has been another episode of the Premise. You can visit us online@the premisepod.com and subscribe and rate or review the Premise
wherever you get your podcasts. Those reviews really help us get the word out, increase our subscriber base. And we just really appreciate you for being here with us. You can follow me, your host, on Instagram at Jennifer Grace or follow me on Facebook at Jennifer Thompson Consulting until next week. Thanks for listening. Goodbye. Bye.