Caitlin Rother - New York Times bestselling author - Hooked

Hello, welcome back. I'm Jennifer Thompson. And I'm Chad Thompson. And this is season seven of the Premise of the Premise, where we get to the story behind the storyteller. We've got some amazing authors lined up for you this season. And guess what? The San Diego Writers Festival is coming up in just a couple months, folks. It's March 28th at the Coronado Public Library. It's free to everyone, and this year's keynote is Jodi Picolt. So make sure and mark your calendars. We'll see

Italian Cars, Italian Pasta.

New York Times best selling author Ken Caitlin Rother has written or Co authored 16 books, the latest of which is Hooked, which I have just read and we're going to talk about today. This is the first in Rother's new Katrina and Good thriller series. Her other recent titles are down to the bone, about the McStay family murders, the updated edition of Body Parts about serial killer Wayne Adam Ford, and Death on Ocean Boulevard, about the

Thanks so much for having me.

Yeah, I'm really excited to dive into this book Hooked. there are so many topics. I don't imagine we'll get to all of them, but let's start with this. Tell us about Hooked. What is this book about?

Well, I have so many different sub themes that I can talk about. it's really difficult for me to boil it down, but I know you're supposed to have an elevator pitch, but you know, basically the. It's the first book in the series. so it launches with hooked on February 1st. And it's basically a book about ethics, corruption, suicide, murder, addiction, and the way that materialism is not everything. It seems wealthy people behaving

100%. Yeah. I loved the, you know, as you say, the underlying sexual tension. So really, we've got romance and we've got the typical thriller. And I gotta go back to your comment, though, because I went to journalism school myself, and I can just remember being 19 years old and seeing Diane Sawyer doing undercover reporting. And I was so moved and so inspired. That's what I wanted to do with my life. You know, I wanted to do something good in the world. And m, to me, the only way to

Yeah.

And it's scary. It's scary to see what's happening in journalism and that people don't believe what they see. you know, Chad calls it a post truth society, and that's. That's scary stuff.

Well, and I went into journalism, you know, with these ideals about right and wrong. And, you know, I've always had that. Apparently. My mom told me that I've always been like that since my personality was formed, I guess, when I was a child. And it just stayed that way. So I've always been a rule follower and, you know, so I just wanted to expose wrongdoing and I wanted to expose negligence and incompetence. So I covered a lot of

I bet. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, it's a fantastic book and.

Well, thank you.

Yeah, well, thank. And I gotta say, you know, Katrina, she's so meticulous. And the tension also of her, you know, just this crazy day running around making these phone calls, trying to find as much information and as many facts as she can so she can tell the story well. And then, oh, by the way, you've got three hours to write it. We have a deadline today.

You know, always, always. That was my life, which is stressful.

But I guess it's, you know, a form of, you know, adrenaline. That's pretty exciting too.

well, and not all reporters are capable of that. Not all reporters are investigative reporters. So when you, when you say investigative reporter, and I was interviewed by another podcaster who was mentioning an author who was a TV reporter and talking about being an investigative reporter. But the scene that he was relaying was basically on the spot, breaking news at a crime scene, not the

Well, I was just going to ask you, when did you decide you were going to write like full length novels? True crime? Not novels. True crime, nonfiction.

Like, thank you for making that distinction because a lot of people don't seem to understand that there's no such thing as a true crime novel. Yeah, there's no. Often say that makes me crazy. So when I was, I have been writing fiction for a lot of my life. when I was just, starting out as a cub reporter, I was back in Massachusetts. And just like Katrina, she worked in Northampton, Massachusetts. Gee, guess what? So did I,

Write what you know. Write what you know.

Yeah, yeah. Well, I thought, you know, what the heck, right? So I was, hired as a part time reporter at the Springfield Union News. because they had this whole exploitative system where you had full time reporters and you had a whole bunch of part timers who worked full time gigs but didn't get health benefits. So that was really a lot of fun. So I would work a full time schedule and I would write these long investigative stories and that's eventually how I got hired. But,

I love that you share this story that you're telling us in your author's note and your acknowledgments of the book. Because it's so interesting, you know, you read a book and you think, wow, it's so perfect. It came together that way, right? Oh, hell no. Oh, hell no. And you mentioned Michael Connelly had, a tip for you when you first wrote this book and you were getting rejections, right?

So people say, oh, you know Michael Connelly? Well, no, it's not like we're best friends or anything, but he, My boyfriend when I worked at the LA Times was his former editor.

Oh, nice.

So they were friends. And so like, you know, we all went to a YouTube concert together. You know, they stayed friends. And so years later, you know, I'm right trying to write this. I'm trying to get Naked Addiction published. I still can't get it published, so I'm getting Poison Love published. And I sent him an email and I said, hey, would you be willing to do a blurb for me on this book, Poison Love? He goes, don't you have a novel you're working on? I go, yeah, but I don't have a

Amazing.

So, yeah, so then I was able to sell the book, but then I couldn't sell the sequel, which was hooked in its original form. And I went through three ages before I finally found one who was willing to even send it out again. I had to rewrite it multiple times. I started it over in a fresh file, in fact, because my. One of my editors, one of my agents was like, well, there's too much telling and not enough showing. And I know you have the chops to do this, so just open a new file and

I can't imagine.

So, anyway, 17 years later, here's Hooked.

Worth the wait. I mean, well, and you say, like, learning how to tell, think, and talk was so integral. At what point did you know you needed to add in another protagonist, a female?

I always had another one. And I think the funny thing is that I don't think that the agents who read it early on, they were ready for that, because detective novels were just one detective period. Right. You didn't have to. But then I think on tv, you know, they started having, like, that stupid show, I'm Sorry, Castle, which I just think is kind of lame, because the reporter's lame and the detective seems kind of lame, but that's kind of one of those couples where. Where you have

So I'm just watching it then. Yeah. Yeah. We won't even go there. Yeah.

I mean, I just happened to see it on tv. But I'm just using that as an example because it's a reporter and a police detective. So, But the idea of that I had from the very beginning, I thought to myself, well, okay, I think Patricia Cornwell had a problem early on as well that she needed to do a female character. And I thought that's what I wanted to do too. But I really wanted to keep Ken good. So I wanted to have them both be primary.

Yeah.

So I think it was just. Maybe it was before it's time and now it's.

I don't know that's entirely possible.

I mean, I love their.

Dang. Their dynamic. Like the sexual tension and the chemistry is so alive. And that's another thing you mentioned in your author note, which I hate to give it away because the author's note and the acknowledgments is sort of like dessert to me. Like, that's the last thing.

And they're at the end of the book for a reason. Exactly. So no spoilers.

No spoilers. But, you know, there are people gave you critiques that you fixed. I mean, you absolutely nailed it. And this book is.

Thank you.

Is alive. I want to talk about the details in your writing, which I'm sure are directly related to you as an investigative reporter. You know, it's clear that you are a meticulous investigative reporter, which is why you've been so successful. And, you know, it's just makes our female protagonist just come alive. Like she's almost solving the case for Ken.

Right.

But of course, there's back and forth they're helping each other through, you know, throughout the book. But she must have been so much fun to write. And so I just gotta ask you now, did she come easy or did she evolve over time?

She evolved over time. And Ken Good has evolved over time too. So remember way back when, when I wrote Naked Addiction? Honestly, it took 17 years to get that book published. And it's taken 17 years now to get this book published. So when I first started writing Ken Good, I was in my 30s. The characters are in their 30s now. I think I was. I'm still the same person, but I don't approach sex in my mind the same way. I don't

Totally.

Yeah. Ah, you know, so I mean, I didn't have a cheerleader to start with. And he said, and by the way, this isn't. You don't try to make her. You, make her somebody else. And so I actually originally had her be a lot more sexual. But I also figured that just the way society is and women are so judgmental of other women that I wanted readers to accept her. So I kind of played that down. So I want her to be sexual because this is a book about a, you know, sex drug. Honestly,

That's how you say.

I had to play with her a little bit. And then. And then Ken Good was much more, I think, kind of. He seemed like, to me, the way I remember, he was kind of more frustrated and distrusting and, a little more angry in Naked Addiction, because it's about, you know, it opens with him on the Coronado Bridge, remembering when his mother drove him there when he was six years old and got out of the car, put her high heels on the driver's seat, gave him a melancholy smile, went behind the car and

Yeah.

So anyway, I made her. I kind of shaped them both based on who I am now, but trying to remember who I used to be and trying to give her some of my stories and give them both parts of me, but I had to. That was a little bit of a challenge since so much time has passed to try to write younger characters. But I went through a lot of stuff when I was young with the dating world and all that nonsense. So, that's still pretty burned into my brain.

I mean, you. You have experience with suicide in your personal life?

Yes, I do. My. My late husband killed himself. So, Yeah, I know a lot about it. So. And how it sort of, kind of sticks with me. And I wrote about it before he killed himself too. So, I mean, it's kind of always been there.

Interesting.

I don't know why, but it's just one of those things.

Well, you are a crime writer and.

But I think there's a reason why I became a crime writer. Right. I mean, you know.

So when you were a little girl, did you watch the news or were you interested?

No, not at all.

Okay.

My, My parents had the LA Times in the house, and I read the comics, and that was pretty much m. Maybe the horoscope. I don't know.

Where did you grow up?

well, I went to, We moved to San Diego when I was, in the first grade. We went to three. I went to three different elementary schools in San Diego, and then we moved to La Jolla when I was in the summer before seventh grade. So I went to junior high and high school in La Jolla, went to UCSD for a couple quarters, transferred to Berkeley, and then I moved, did my master's at Medill outside of Chicago, and then I moved to the east coast to work. And then I made my way back to San Diego and

And in a lot of ways, I think one of the things I enjoyed most about reading this book was just this beautiful romp through San Diego and La Jolla in particular.

Oh, good, thanks.

And it was so much fun to know exactly where we are in town, you know, where the scene is, like right down to the street. But what really impressed me with how you, you give. You, you did this really well. Anyone not familiar with San Diego, you gave them history and details that bring our city to life without it seeming odd. And you don't usually see that in fiction. You see it in reporting for sure. But you managed to marry those two in a really seamless way that, I really

Oh, of course, yes.

Yes, of course you did.

Of course. I mean, I really think it's important to ground the reader so you know what you're looking at, you know where you are, you know what you see, you know what you smell and hear and feel. And, Wind and Sea, where Ken Good is kind of his second home. He's like a homing pigeon. he'll leave and he'll come back to Wind and Sea and just look at the water and connect with the water and go put his foot in the water. And he's a surfer, so he loves the ocean. And that's something that

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Boy, it is smelly down there too, which is such a shame.

Yes.

So one thing I'd like to point out, that you don't actually use the word fuck. In this novel, they don't really swear and it was right. And you don't even really realize it's happening. So tell us about this decision to not use that word in the book.

So in my, true crime books, most of my, books are published by Kensington, which is now putting out books through their imprint, Citadel. my editor basically said to me, if, you know, don't use that word because we're not going to be able to get your books into Walmart. They have some sort of, I don't know, some software or something maybe that searches your book and they don't want that for

And it works.

I'm glad, I'm glad because I mean I, I did make a decision on that. I, every once in a while I think I might use it. If it's, if it's really necessary, I'll use it because it's a strong word and it does need to be used sometimes. And when you're exclaiming something and you're really mad or you're pissed off or you hurt yourself, I mean, I'm going to use that word. I'm not going to Say effing. You know, I don't say effing unless I'm trying not to offend somebody. Sure, I tried. Or I

Well, sure.

Like, comedy can be lazy when people cuss too much, I think.

Totally. I totally agree with that. I remember one of the first times I swore in front of a really good friend of mine. We'd been hanging out for years, and one day we were sitting in a bar having a drink, and she said, oh, my God, I've never heard you come us. And I said, well, that's because Penelope's always with us. And, you know, Penelope was a child. She was like, oh, there's a time and a place. But those words do. I'm, fond of them, you know.

In the right moment. In the right moment. In the right moment. And with. With someone that you feel safe with. That's very true.

That's very true. Caitlin, do you write every day?

I go through phases, and, the. My main frustration is my body. My body does not want me to write every day and does not want me to write as much as I want to write. So, I. You know, I worked for 20 years as a reporter, and I typed a huge amount. So I put a lot of strain on my body with adrenaline and deadlines and typing. I used to type my interviews, which was extra typing on top of writing my story. I would type all my interviews, and I typed very fast. Wow. So I would write as

Yeah, I enjoy working.

I enjoy working. It's fun and it helps me escape all the nonsense out there. There's so much garbage happening right now that is so upsetting. If you let it bother you, I just start writing the story and I forget about it. Indeed. That's the fun part.

Absolutely. And you're a writing coach as well?

Yeah, not as much anymore. I don't. You know, people don't seem to really know that I'm a coach these days, so I don't do that as much. but. But when I was teaching, I used to teach at UCSD Extension and San Diego Writers Inc. And my students would work with me after the class was over and I would get a lot of coaching clients that way. But, I mean, I still do it. If anybody wants to do a session, I'm happy to do that on the

Sure. Well.

But yeah, I mean, if somebody wants a coaching session, I still do do it.

Well, they can find you on your website, which is.

That's right.

Caitlinrother.com. so if someone did hire you, what kind of. Is there a specific genre, that you enjoy working on with clients?

Well, I, I really think I'm the best at doing front end developmental editing. So I prefer to talk through ideas with people and research. You know, research has always been really big for me because research, when you're doing nonfiction and true crime is just as important as the writing. Honestly, it's a separate skill. and people don't

Nice.

I mean, it depends on what they want too. Sometimes people just want to talk and talk through some ideas. I'm happy to do that too. And I'm happy to read and critique, you know, a chapter or whatever. If, if, then I can tell them what they're doing right and what they're not doing right and help them steer them on how to improve. Like this part here is what you want to do all the way through. You're just doing it in one paragraph. So do. Do that all the time. Stuff like that. More of that. Yeah.

I know that you are already working on the next books in the series. Can you tell us where you're at and when we can expect to get the next book?

Yeah, the next book is called 17 Years. No, actually I'm much faster now. Like I said, I just wrote like 60,000 words in a month and a half. So I'm doing much, much better. So staged is the next book in the series and it is coming out in June, so it is available for pre order already.

Oh my gosh.

I've already written books three and four as well. So they are under submission with my editor.

Awesome.

And I hope to be. I hope to get some good news on at least book three. And then we're not sure whether she says that debut authors, often they like to end their series with three books. And no one told me that. And I wrote book four. So whether or not she decides she wants to publish it, I'm going to publish it no matter what because I really. It's where I feel the story should go.

Got it.

That's with the story arc. And so the one I'm writing now was because until she decides whether she's gonna buy three and four, I needed something else to do. I already wrote those two books and I'm m not gonna sit on my thumb. So I started a new character and a new, plot. And I don't know if this is gonna be a recurring character or if this is going to be a standalone, but it, is going to be a female sheriff's detective this time because

I love it. Well, that's exciting. So we have a lot to look forward to from you. So thank you.

No, thank you.

I have one more question before we close. A lot of our listeners are writers. M. And you know, we'd like to maybe end with some advice from you.

Well, I, have a friend who just hit the USA best selling author list with, with one of her recent books. And she goes 32 years to be an overnight success. And so that's kind of how I feel. Here I am, book number 16. Took me 17 years to get it published. Like I said, it was supposed to be part of a series. And the first book took 17 years to get published too. You know, you don't win if you

Sure.

I mean, today I think it's like 3,000 books because it's just a different world. And so we have audiobooks now. We have Kindle, which we didn't really have, you know, back then. And if we did, they would put the ebook out like two years later, you know. So things have changed a lot. You have to really be able to reinvent yourself and you've got to really keep up with everything because the marketing and promotions are constantly changing. It takes so much of your

So according to your bio, you've been on more than 250 podcasts, TV shows, and radio. I mean, that's pretty, right?

Oh, I know. I'm fine with doing that stuff, but I'm the networking stuff with real people outside of my house. I don't seem to have a lot of time for that because I'm so busy working on something.

Yeah, well, you're a writer. I mean, that's.

I'm a writer. And so. And so, you know, I'm not as comfortable. And Covid really did a number on me in terms of my ability to, like, deal with other people. It just took me a long time to kind of reintegrate into society because, you know, all that time alone, it's just. It does a number on you. And then you're like, I don't remember how to talk to this person. What do I say? You know? Anyway, I'm doing much better. And I've been on a never ending book tour for the past year. This is

Wow.

Which is just. It's crazy though. I mean, I keep track of. I went for four years with no books, and then now I've got four books in 15 months. And. And the other thing is, you know, how many times are you gonna. Are people gonna come out for you and buy your book? You know, when you have them come out that close together? So it's been very exciting, but it's been tricky, you know? Know. So anyway, I'm not complaining. It's just. Yeah, it's just been. It's just, you know, these are the

Yeah. Yeah.

Do you sell books at your trio gigs? No, I do not. I don't. We don't play that often. And I, you know, I've thought about it, but I'm like, I don't know, it seems like. It seems like they're interested in hearing about it, but they're not there for that.

Sure.

And vice versa.

Yeah. Yeah.

Like I had a friend who's like, oh, you and Gaza is my partner. I play with as well. You guys should sing at your book signing at Barnes and Noble. I'm like, know. I don't think so.

Well, I don't know. I think that'd be kind of cool. I saw you sing in Nashville.

Yeah, well.

Which was awesome.

Oh, thank you. That was. That was fun. I mean, and I needed to do that, you know, I. And it was good for me. It was fun.

That was the killer, killer Nashville Writers Conference for our listeners. Well, Caitlin Rother, thank you so much for joining us here on the Premise today. We really appreciate.

Well, I really appreciate you having me on. It was fun.

Yeah. And I'm excited to read book. Well, I guess it's really book three, but we'll call it book two in the series.

Well, yeah, it's, book two. Got it. But yeah, I'm calling Naked Addiction the prequel. Got it.

Okay. Okay.

Okay. Yeah.

Well, folks, you can learn more about Caitlyn@ CaitlinRother.com subscribe to her substack Aur and be sure to follow her on BookBub, where you can find ebook discounts and other goodies. Follow her on Facebook, Facebook, Caitlin Rother, and Instagram at the real caitlinrother, all separated by underscores. This has been another episode of the Premise. You can visit us online@thepremisepod.com and subscribe and rate or review the Premise wherever