>> Jeniffer: Hello and welcome to the premise. I'm Jennifer Thompson. I'm Chad Thompson. And we are here today with two amazing women, Anastasia Zadeik and Bethan Patrick. And today we're going to be talking about mental health. This is a very important topic to me. I have mental health in my family and I grew up with a bipolar father. He probably had personality disorders as well. So today we're really going to dive into what this looks like for someone who's lived it and writing
about it, writing about characters. And Anastasia, you've had experiences in your family as well, I think, who hasn't, right? And yet we act like we can't talk about it. It's one of those taboo topics. We want to change that. Bethan Kelly Patrick is the author of her, her memoir, life overcoming Double depression. And Anastasia Zadig is the author of the novel the other side of nothing. Ladies, thank you for being here today. >> Anastasia Zadeik: Thank you for having us. This is great.
>> Bethannee Patrick: Thank you so much. Delighted. >> Jeniffer: Beth Ann Patrick maintains a storied place in the publishing industry as a critic and as the bookmaven on Twitter, formerly Twitter, where she created the popular hash fridayreads and regularly comments on books and literary ideas to over 200,000 followers. Her work appears frequently in the Los Angeles Times as well as in the Washington Post, NPR Books and Literary
hub. She sits on the board of the PEn Faulkner foundation and has served on the board of the National Book Critics Circle. She is the host of missing Pages podcast. Again, Bethanneee, thank you so much for being here today. >> Bethanne Patrick: Thanks again, Jennifer. It's really such a delight. And I cannot wait to, be in conversation with Anastasia. >> Jeniffer: I know this is kind of exciting and we'll tell our listeners a little bit more about how you all know each other.
Anastasia Zaddyk is a writer, editor and storyteller. After graduating summa cum laude laude from Smith College with a degree in psychology, she had an international career in neuropsychological research while raising her two children. She now serves as the director of communications for the San Diego Writers Festival, as many of you know, and as a mentor for the literary nonprofit, so say we all. She is a board member for the International Memoir Writers
association. Her debut novel, Blurred fates, won both the 2023 Sarton Award and the 2023 NIEA for contemporary fiction, her second novel. Again, we're going to be talking about today, the other side of nothing, was released recently on May 28. So congratulations, Anastasia. >> Anastasia Zadeik: Thank you so much. >> Jeniffer: And actually, let's just tell our listeners so everyone knows. We record these in advance. Today is actually your release date. >> Anastasia Zadeik: It is.
>> Jeniffer: Today's my release day. So when you got out of bed this morning, there were fireworks. >> Anastasia Zadeik: Oh, yeah, for sure. >> Jeniffer: The whole room was filled with roses. >> Anastasia Zadeik: No, my daughter's dog came in and woke me up and it was like 630. >> Jeniffer: That's kind of like fireworks. Anastasia, thank you so much for being here. >> Anastasia Zadeik: Thank you so much for having me. I am also looking forward to this conversation with Beth Ann.
>> Jeniffer: So how do you all know each other? >> Anastasia Zadeik: Do you want to take that one Bethanne? >> Bethanne Patrick: Or should I will take that one? we actually graduated in the same class from Smith College. Although I graduated san laude to Anastasia summa cum laude. But she has three very close friends whom I knew, I knew one of them extremely well. And they are just, let's put it this way. Smith women
are awesome. And it's just, it was so, amazing because Anastasia's publicist, Caitlin, Hamilton sumi, is also a Smith alum and she is terrific. and when she connected us, she was so good about being very quiet. She knows that, I don't like hard pitches, hard sells. She knows that I tend to cover, you know, mostly things from the bigger publishing houses. But she said you, you know, you really need to take a look at this one. And I want to say, jennifer, to you right now that I am so glad I did.
Because as I told Anastasia when I, when I read the first few pages, I just, I'm talking like five to seven pages. I was blown away. I could not believe that I was reading something so good. So, it was just like, and I hate the word masterful. I've been talking about this over the last couple of weeks, but so assured, especially because I have been since my book came out a year ago and the paperback came out a couple of weeks
ago. I've been in this, world of mental health narratives, fiction and nonfiction. And to see something that really interested me and kept me going and kept me reading and yet was also so authentic and compassionate was really something. So I am thrilled, Anastasia, for the, launch today. But that's, you know, that's how we know each other. Isn't that amazing? >> Jeniffer: It is amazing.
>> Anastasia Zadeik: It is. And it's so we, I actually, I had not seen Bethany for a long time until we were actually on a Smith class of 85. Zoom about your book life be. Yes, yes. And I was like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. And so I'd heard of you and it was kind of one of those like, oh, I'm in awe. I don't know if she'll ever, ever speak to someone like me. But it was so funny because I think we both kind of had this, like, misconception, and now we are both
realizing we have so much in common. And whenever we get on the phone or on a zoom, we just talk and talk and talk and talk and talk. >> Jeniffer: That's awesome. And you have so much to talk about. >> Anastasia Zadeik: We do. >> Bethanne Patrick: We do. We really do. And what's really amazing about friends you make later from your, you know, college or graduate school cohorts is that you're never going to run out of things to talk about there. It's just,
it's such a beautiful thing. So anyone who believes that, you know, friendships, you stop making friendships at, you know, 22, forget about it. >> Anastasia Zadeik: I think that's right. And I think it's, it's interesting because when I first spoke with Caitlin, we just hit it off. And she knew that I had gone to Smith, but I didn't publish that she had. And so we were talking a little bit, and she said, you know, what are you, what are some of the things you're worried
about? Publicist for my first book as well. And I said, I'm just nervous that I put out something that isn't, like, really good, and I don't want to. And she goes, you're a perfectionist. And I said, I am. And I said, how did you know that? She said, because you went to Smith. And I was like, how did you know I went to Smith? And she said, I do my research. And then we found that. I think it's just we had this shared experience, and, it's not like we, we
weren't there at the same time. We didn't have the same major, but we just had this shared experience. And m it gave us commonality right off the bat. >> Jeniffer: Speaking of shared experiences. So we're looking at two books here that tackle mental health. One, of course, is your memoir, Bethanne, and this one, your book, the other side of nothing, Anastasia, is a novel. So I think what I'd like to do is start by you telling us, a little bit about, you know, what your book is
about and then why you wrote it. And let's start with Anastasia. >> Anastasia Zadeik: Okay, so the other side of nothing is a book about a young, the main
character is a young woman by the name of Julia. She has literally just turned 18 when she voluntarily checks herself into an inpatient psychiatric facility because she recognizes that the grief that she has been experiencing for many months since the death of her father has descended into something that is a place where she can't get out of it
on her own. and she has attempted suicide, and they've put her on a medication that actually causes things to get a little bit worse, which is a common and unfortunate problem with certain SsRi's, which is selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors can sometimes cause that problem. so she's feeling very desperate, and she knows she doesn't want to live like this, but she also knows she doesn't really want to die. And so she checks herself into this psychiatric facility where
she meets a young man. They fall in love. He convinces her to leave against medical advice, and they embark on a cross country odyssey to try to recreate an iconic Ansel Adams image at Yosemite. And when their mothers learn that they have disappeared, and they also learn that authorities won't do anything because they're both young adults, which is another issue in, you know, health, our healthcare
system that I wanted to address. They just. The two mothers decide that they are going to try to find their kids and take off after them with just a handful of clues. So it's kind of a cross country. Two cross country journeys that are happening in parallel, though not exactly at the same time, because the kids have a head start. And the reason I wrote it is because several years before I started writing it, my, nephew attempted to take
his own life. And I learned so much in conversations with my sister about not only what it's like to have that happen in your family, but also what it's like in your community and how it feels to be the parent of someone who is watching their child struggle and not being able to fix it or help them, and also to have it be something mental illness, which is. Still has such, a stigma that people don't know how to react. So even friends, even family members, we didn't know what to say
to my sister. And so instead of saying something or talking about it, people tend to be quiet. And silence makes it just that much worse for the people in the situation, because they already feel alone. And when we respond with silence, it makes them feel even more alone. And so I wanted to address that in the book, and then I also wanted to just address some of the issues related to self determination in people who are struggling with mental illness and how tough that is to find the right line.
because obviously, we want to give people as m much decision making as possible. But also there comes a point where, as a parent or as a loved one, even sister, brother, friend. There can come a time when they've gone over an edge that they can't be pulled back from. And m the, idea of letting them make decisions for themselves at that point is really frightening for loved ones.
>> Jeniffer: Yeah. And, you know, I had mentioned early on in this interview that mental m Health runs in my family, mental health issues. And I have a nephew who has been diagnosed both bipolar, and he has borderline personality disorder. And I remember at one point when I was really struggling with how to help him, trying to figure out what can I do to help.
I called Anastasia and I said, what do I do? And you gave me some advice that was so eye opening for both me and my mom and my family in general. But I'd like to read a line from the book that I think comes directly from this. And Julia says to herself, Julia knew suddenly, ironically, she had to want to die to get a chance to live. Talk to us about what that means. >> Anastasia Zadeik: Well, in addition to my nephew, I should mention that I myself struggle with depression and anxiety.
And, thankfully, at this point, I can say that I'm managing it, which, has been my goal, and is my goal for anyone out there who's currently struggling is to get to the point where they can say that, that they are managing it. But there was a time in my life, just a few years ago, when I no longer wanted to live. And I think that being able to say that to someone puts you in a position to get help. M and it was the hardest phone call I've ever made was to basically call 911 on myself. And I was
scared to do it. But at the same time, it was such a relief when I was done, because suddenly this thing that I'd been carrying for years, decades was out in the open, and I was able to get help by just admitting I needed help. And we as a society, I think, are so used to saying, I'm okay, I'm fine. That to say anything other than that feels really, really still, I guess, taboo or uncomfortable for others. And so it's uncomfortable, I think, for ourselves to say
it. so I think that's the line for me, is that she's basically saying, in order to get the help I need, I have to be able to say that I want to die. >> Jeniffer: There was something I took away from it as well when we were talking, which was, you know, if he can call and get himself admitted and get some help, it puts him in the. In the power seat. >> Anastasia Zadeik: That's correct. >> Jeniffer: As opposed to being forced into that situation where you no
longer have choices. And I think that's a big part of feeling in control of your own healing, of your own journey to get help. I think this is. Go ahead. >> Anastasia Zadeik: I was just going to say when Bethany, Bethanne and I were speaking about this just yesterday, and I think you would agree, wouldn't you, Bethan, about when you get to that point. And, you know, m I absolutely would agree. >> Bethanne Patrick: when you hit that point, it is.
That's, that's the glimmer. That's the little glimmer of I still want to be engaged in this world. >> Jeniffer: Yeah. Wow. Well, so, Bethanne, tell, us a little bit about your memoir, why you wrote it, what you were hoping to accomplish with this book. >> Bethanne Patrick: Thank you so much, Jennifer, for asking. I didn't intend to write a memoir at all. I. >> Jeniffer: Does anyone ever?
>> Bethanne Patrick: I swear, honestly. You know, actually, I had, proposed and sent around, submitted a memoir probably at least six or seven years before this completely different kind of concept. And it wasn't really about mental illness, and it didn't go anywhere, which is just as well. And around the time that I. This is how it happened. I was really stuck. I had had a big project fall through, and I wasn't sure what to
write, what to work on with my agent. My agent wanted me to write a book about sort of being a book nerd, a very bookish person, and I wasn't feeling it. So we had a conversation in, I think, 2016, and the agent said, well, you know, what is working for you in writing? And I said, well, you know, I workshopped something last year. It's an essay about my trouble with depression. And he said, sent it over. I sent it over. An hour later, he called me back
and said, this is what you need to be working on. And so we got that to Elle online, and it came out in 2016, and it went, I guess, viral ish, you know, I can't, I don't, I don't know what viral is anymore. But it went, it was a big enough, number of clicks that people were interested. And so we started shopping it around. And, I'm very happy to say that counterpoint press, bought it. And so I
sold it on proposal. And that's why I'm taking a little bit of time to walk you through this process, because that was both the best thing and the worst thing for me. Selling the book was so affirming. And I knew that I had something to say, but I had to teach myself how to write memoir. and I really didn't understand how much I had to learn. So it took a while. It took me, five
years to finish the manuscript. And believe me, you know, the day in 2022 when my editor called and said I had to talk to you today because we are officially accepting this manuscript. I was just so happy, so thrilled knowing that I really had produced what I wanted to produce, which was a book that would talk about all the different aspects of my depression and hopefully then give some resonance to people who also have depression.
I wanted people to understand. and I'll get to one of my biggest points in a second here, that there is the genetic component, what is actually in your DNA. Then there's the hereditary component, which has to do with what your family has gone through, and also, with how you're raised, how your parents and grandparents have been parented to this or that extent. And then, of course,
there's also context. And that has a great deal to do, with how you are raised, how you interact with your various communities, both at home and at school and in the wider world. So it's a pretty complicated thing. And my finding out that I had double depression was extremely important. Not because it cured me, not because, it makes me special, but it made it possible for me to have new treatment and new medication that finally opened me up to all of this joy and fulfillment and contentment that
I'd seen other people having. I'd watched it for decades, and I didn't know where it came from. I didn't know how other people were so lively and active and engaged in things. You know, I'd been. It felt like the whole world was behind a sort of foggy window for me. And so, my diagnosis and subsequent treatment really gave me back, not just myself, but other people too. And so, as I say in the book, I learned how to be a woman with mental illness living in the
world. I learned how to live in the world without always being so miserable and desperate. And I don't mean I'm sure other people either, didn't see that, because a lot of us are high masking. I'm sure Anastasia can, talk about that, too, but because who wants to live feeling that way? Who wants to keep going feeling that
way? And so the last thing I'll say, jennifer, about why I wanted to write my book is that I've had so many people over the years, say, variations of this, which is, you have everything. You have a great education, you have a loving spouse, you and your spouse have wonderful children. You have work that you love. You know, you don't have anything to be depressed about. Sorry, that's not how it works. and I will say this over and over again for the rest of the time
I have here on earth. Depression doesn't care whether you're young or old, rich or poor, fatter, thin, successful or on the street. Depression is a, ah, liar. And depression is really painful. And you can be someone who has a great amount of privilege and still have terrible, crushing depression. And that is not because you're ungrateful. It is not because you're weak of character. It is an illness.
>> Anastasia Zadeik: Yeah. And, you know, one of the things we were talking about yesterday was also like, some people take masks. I mean, I'm a masker for sure. My daughter's a masker. And I mentioned to, Bethanne, when my daughter first started taking medication, she said, I didn't know people could feel like this, which was heartbreaking on the one hand, and also just, but also great because I was like,
wow, that's, that's amazing. And. But some famous people mask to the extent that they don't want people to feel what they feel. And so they are determined to be joyful. Like a, Robin Williams, for example, who clearly was incredibly depressed and turned it into material. Now, that doesn't mean that it's, quote unquote, worth it to be depressed, but it's just interesting how it can impact you so much. And many, many people may not be aware that you're struggling with it.
>> Jeniffer: Yeah. Sting from the police. >> Anastasia Zadeik: Yeah, yeah. >> Bethanne Patrick: Yep. >> Jeniffer: I pulled up a quote from him. Said I was suicidal, I was manic depressive, and I just wasn't chemically balanced enough to enjoy my time on the stage. And I think that's so common. And it's important that we have stories like that. It's important that we can read and see. Oh, I'm not alone. And maybe there's something I can do to seek help.
>> Anastasia Zadeik: Absolutely. And it's funny. Not, funny haha But funny strange. Just a couple days ago, I got a review and someone said, it's so brave of her to be so honest in her author's notes. And I thought, I want to get to the point where I'm not considered brave for talking about this. I want to get to the point where everyone feels like they can talk about it without, without being judged. >> Jeniffer: Yeah.
>> Bethanne Patrick: Well, and you know what? I want to add something. I want to piggyback on that. Anastasia, I've told audiences before that. You do not have to be open about your mental illness, your challenges. No one has to be anything. >> Bethanne Patrick: It's okay if you do want to keep things quiet. If you do choose not to be public the way I have been public about my challenges, what's important is that everyone respect each other's choices and also that there be as much support
and information available as possible. So even if you are playing your cards very close to the vest, that you can get the resources you need to live as well as possible. Everyone has a different kind of process and journey. And, you know, recovery, as they say in twelve step groups, is not this linear, you know, trip. I mean, there are so many twists and turns in whether you're recovering from some kind of substance, challenge, or whether you're recovering from deep brain
based depression. So I would never say to anyone, you must share your story with me. But if someone says, may I share my story with you? Let me tell you, the answer for me is going to be yes, absolutely.
>> Anastasia Zadeik: and I agree. I think that one of the things, my sister in law had cancer, and one of the things that she said was so important for her was having control over how people who knew and how they found out, because she felt like she had so little control, from, the cancer and from what was happening to her and that she, that was something she needed. And I think that that's right. That's true. For any illness, mental illness, physical illness, anything that's going on in
your life, you're not obligated to share that. You're getting divorced, you're not obligated to share anything. But if you want to share, I mean, you know, you look back, I don't remember who I was talking to about this, but someone, we were engaged in conversation about the big c and the big d and how decades ago you couldn't talk about cancer or divorce. Right? Like, people didn't talk about that back then. It's sort of
like that with, hm, mental illness. I think we just have to get to the point where people, if they wish to, can speak openly about it and can find. But again, you're absolutely right, Bethan, that we also have to get to the point where there's support that's readily available so that people can educate themselves, so that they're ready to receive that information from someone else, so that they know what to say, so that they don't, that they aren't silent, so that they,
they have resources. And I think that's you know, somebody asked me, so are you saying you have to, we have to educate everyone in the public? And I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what we gotta do. >> Jeniffer: Well, mental health is not a character flaw. And I think that's one of the things that came across so well in your book. Bethan, thank you. Is the way you, you talk about how it feels like if you have lupus or if you have cancer, that's a
disease. And people, when you tell people, hey, I can't function at 100% today because I have lupus, they're like, oh, okay, let's do what we can to help and help you through this. But when you have mental illness, that's not how it works. People see it like you're just not being strong enough. You're just being sad. You just need to buck up. As Laura says in Anastasia's book. Buck up and get through it. But that's not really how it works. >> Bethanne Patrick: No, it isn't.
And actually this is, the perfect thing to segue from what we were just talking about because everyone has a different learning process, everyone has a different journey. This is why I love that Anastasia and I are talking together about our books. Because one is nonfiction and one is fiction. And so you get different ways in. Some people
might love both of them. Some people might prefer one or the other, but it, it shows that you can talk about these issues in a thoughtful, and again, to use a word, I describe the other side of nothing with compassionate way. You do not have to, demonize or villainize or ostracize people with mental health challenges. You can actually see, wow, they're people. I love the fact that Julia and Sam have different things that are going to occur in their
own journeys in the book. But they're both fully human, they're both full characters. They're not, neither one of them is just a flat sort of, And I don't think Anastasia is capable of writing flat character. But I do think it's so important that we see, even when someone is in real crisis, that they are still fully human. >> Anastasia Zadeik: Absolutely. >> Jeniffer: Anastasia, you picked up your book. I have a feeling you want to read us something.
>> Anastasia Zadeik: No, I was just, there was when you said that about, it's not a character flaw. It just reminded me of this one scene where the two moms are talking and they have not yet decided to work together. And why? >> Jeniffer: Because they don't want to admit what's happening. It's a personal thing in their families. Right. And they're afraid to tell the other because it makes them
vulnerable. Right. >> Anastasia Zadeik: And Laura basically says, so what you're telling us is your son has stolen from you, taken his father's car without permission, and convinced my daughter to leave against medical advice on some ill conceived journey to recreate an image that's going to change his life. Do I have it straight? And then the mom says, the other mom, Arabella says, it certainly does not sound good when you put it that way. And Laura says, how else can it
be put? And Arabella says. Arabella found herself questioning whether her underlying emotions bore any similarity to Laura's. She was reminded of something she'd heard from one of Sam's many therapists. She locked her eyes upon Laura's. Surely you've surmised, given where they met. Sam's thinking can be faulty at times, but being mentally unhealthy is not the same as being immoral. >> Jeniffer: M nice. Yeah, that's great. Thank you for reading.
>> Anastasia Zadeik: Because I think people, you know, when you're, when your decision making is flawed because your brain is not operating. >> Anastasia Zadeik: At the highest level, it could be we make bad decisions sometimes. And I think that that's, I mean, we make bad decisions anyway, but it does, it does change the way that you see the world.
And one of the other things that I think is notable about depression, and that, again, is something that my nephew said to my sister was everything shaded, every memory he had was shaded by his depression. At one point he said to my sister, why did you take us to Disney World when we were little, when we
would never remember it? And she was like, everything, like, even something super joyful that they did when he was a kid, he now viewed as something like, just like you said, Bethanne, it was like this fog that was over everything. So even good memories aren't good anymore. so it's such a serious issue for us to be talking about. I'm glad we're able to do it so openly now. >> Jeniffer: Well, today I'd like to take a step back because there's two things I'd like to tell our listeners.
These are fantastic books. Anastasia, your book is so smart. And I want to talk a little bit about the research. in your book, you know, the artists, the philosophers, and you know that you chose Camus and the myth of Sisyphus. And I'd like to know why. Like, first of all, as I was reading it, I kept, like, writing notes down, like, oh, I need to read that. Oh, I need to check that out. Like, all these fun things that were just so, so
fun to read and so smart. And it was like getting into your brain a little bit, which I really enjoyed because I've known Anastasia for many, many years and consider her a very close friend. We're both involved in the San Diego Writers Festival. Well, frankly, we put it on. And so, like, we've been through a lot together. And as I was reading this book, I was like, wow, this is like, such a great journey into your brain.
But I want to know specifically, like, how you came to choose Camus and that particular book. Bring us through this. >> Anastasia Zadeik: So there's a. I'm a pantser. I don't plot my stories out. I wish I did because it would make my life easier. >> Jeniffer: Wait, now, hold on. Before you go on, is this something that Marnie created, the pants or the platter? >> Anastasia Zadeik: No, it's in the industry. >> Jeniffer: Ok. Ok. Because I've always given Marnie credit. So, like, I'm a
pantser. Go on, Miss Pantser. >> Anastasia Zadeik: So for the audience, if you don't know, a plotter is someone who plots out their book. They use outlines. They have it all organized. They know where the book is going. They know what the ending is. They know what their character arcs are. Roughly, a pantser is someone who sits down and just starts writing with just a vague idea. >> Jeniffer: That would be me. >> Bethanne Patrick: I'm also a pantser. >> Anastasia Zadeik: Are you a pantser?
it's kind of, for me, it's a recognition of that. I don't understand where creativity comes from. I think it's miraculous. It's also a little mystified and sometimes a little bit like, wow. I'll, read something I wrote and be like, where did that come from? >> Jeniffer: Who wrote m that? Yeah. >> Anastasia Zadeik: but so the early stages of the book, I had Sam basically giving a monologue. He's a really talkative young man, and he used the phrase sisyphean to refer to his own
struggles with mental illness. He has bipolar disorder, and so he has lots of ups and downs. And for him, it feels like he's struggling to get to the top, and as soon as he gets to the top of the mountain, he slides back down, has to start all over. And I realized that I didn't know that much about the story of Sisyphus. I mean, I knew as much as anyone else about, you know, this guy pushing a rock up a hill only to have it slide back
down. But I then looked and found out that there was this book, the myth of Sisyphus, and it. So I bought it. And I started to read it on vacation, where I sat by the pool and envied everyone else who was reading something way more fun. And I read it the first time and kind of just was, oh, my God, I don't understand most of this. I had to look so many words up, and that became kind of a part of the novel. The character Julia, when she starts reading it, she says
she wishes she had a dictionary. So there was things that happened to me as I was reading the myth of Sisyphus for the second time, for the third time, I highlighted it. I wrote little notes in the back, and that all became part of Sam's process, and Sam did that. So it's. It was my way of kind of like, this is what it was like for me. So that's probably where it gets some of its reality, is that this is what I went through. I also recognized that I did have a slight advantage in writing
this, in that it could be wrong. I could be interpreting the myth of Sisyphus totally wrong. but that's just the way my characters interpreted it. So there's really no right and wrong. That's how they saw it. but so then I started learning about all of the connections between, for example, Camus and Escher were m in contemporaries, and Escher's ascending and descending, which is a very famous one of his drawings, is similarly about, like,
you feel like you're going up, but you're really going down. You feel like you're going down, but you're really going up. Like all of this sort of up and down, black and white. And then that all connected with Ansel Adams being a black and white photographer. The COVID of the book that I happened to pick, the version of the myth of Sisyphus that I happened to pick up, had a black and white cover that was triangles that almost looked like half
dome. There was all of these synchronicities that were happening in my process. And I did go down rabbit holes, and I would come into the kitchen at night, and my husband would be like, you were researching today. I had the look on your face because it was so joyful. I loved doing that. And then I also realized that the myth of Sisyphus is also applicable because there's lots of myths about mental illness. There's lots of perceptions that people have that are just plain wrong. And
one of the. There's a section of the myth of Sisyphus that Julia reads aloud to Sam that ends with Sisyphus being happy. And it struck me that, you know, this is something that is part of the book is this idea that you can, when you're depressed you feel like you can never be happy but there is a possibility for you to find that. And so that was kind of how it all came to be. And it was a mystery sometimes to me how I would find something and
I'd be like who led me to this? Like some higher power must have led me to this because it all just, just seemed to flow. >> Jeniffer: Yeah. >> Anastasia Zadeik: Yeah. It was a really cool. I enjoyed writing the book. I also struggled with writing the book because it brought up a lot of emotions for me that I was feeling myself. And when you write about depression and Bethan, I don't know, maybe you can comment on this too. When you write about depression, it can be depressing.
>> Jeniffer: Yeah. >> Bethanne Patrick: Yes. Oh, yeah. >> Jeniffer: That was gonna be one of my questions. Bethan is like, what was your experience, you know, reading this book? >> Bethanne Patrick: reading Anastasia's book or my experience writing my book? >> Jeniffer: Well, speaking to both, yeah. Reading Anastasia's book, like, did you feel like, oh my God, she got it right or, I mean, they're very different? >> Bethanne Patrick: Oh, absolutely. That was a, really
important part of it. And that's why I was so delighted, to see how good and strong it was. Because I think it could have been a book that there are some novels and memoirs where I see excellent sort of thought. Right. And really, good authentic experience. But the writing is very, you know, very plain spoken, very dull. >> Jeniffer: Yeah. But the writing is so good in this book. >> Bethanne Patrick: The writing is so good in Anastasia's book and yet at the same time, every
detail is correct. And just as I said, those opening pages got me because I thought I wrote about being on a locked psych ward. And there it is. This is it. and of course it's not congruent. It's not as if Julia, the character's experience is exactly the same as mine. It's that, that it is authentic that I could tell this was coming from. You know, and this is the thing. You both know, you run a writers festival. you never want your research to feel like, hello, research alert on the page.
Right. >> Anastasia Zadeik: Exactly. Now I'm going to tell you something that I learned. >> Bethanne Patrick: That I think. Exactly. Exactly. And I have one novel. I have one that's my work in progress. But I have one before that that I've done quite a bit of work on. But I knew it was going to have to rest for a long time because I was starting to get so excited about those connections. You were talking about a few minutes ago, that I was just putting things in
because, oh, my gosh, I can't believe it. This town had a blank. This. And it connects to, you know, that is where you're really, you know how they say, show your work in math class. You know, you're showing your work instead of allowing the reader to, you know, have an experience. And so it was really, it was, it was heartbreaking, ah, to read Julia and Sam's story.
But I am in such a different place than I was even when I wrote my memoir, that I was able to have a lot of compassion, but not, I wasn't, you know, identifying too much. I wasn't projecting myself onto the characters, which is definitely a good thing. Ah. And I felt a lot for Arabella and Laura as the parents of these young people because I have two daughters and they're young adults now. And I know how hard I have worked to keep them from having the same experiences
as I had. You can't keep your children from experience. But I wanted to be sure that they were able to benefit from everything I had learned and from the experiences I had had and from the things that I'd lacked that I knew. you know, whether it was a resource or, you know, a way of being treated, I wanted them to have the full benefit of
that. And so I really think in the other side of nothing that it's so important to see how the families are supporting each other, supporting these young people. And that brings me to something else, since I'm talking about my own daughters. I think this is an important part of Anastasia's book is that we want to be sure that people learn early about mental illness and what it is and what it isn't. It's not just, oh, okay, this is
a good reading experience. This is a good book. I brought it along on vacation or what have you. It is a real call to action. And earlier on, Anastasia said it's about breaking the stigma that's so important. >> Anastasia Zadeik: And I think your book does the same. I mean, it's showing people that you can be, you don't know what someone else is experiencing. >> Bethanne Patrick: Thank you. Thank you so much. I pulled up, actually, my, I'm, going to get this wrong too, because I never know the
difference. I have a graduate degree in English, but I still don't know the difference between an epigraph and an epigram. And I should. But my quote, at the beginning of my book is from a peer of ours, mine and Anastasia's named Elizabeth Wurzel, who wrote pros acknation, very powerful memoir that came out. she, sadly, is no longer with us. But I want to say that was, and it's still sad. She, died of breast cancer, not by
suicide. And that is, I think, in a way, a kind of triumph for how hard she worked on, her own mental health challenges. But the line from Prozac nation is, I was so scared to give up depression, fearing that somehow the worst part of me was actually all of me m. Oh, >> Jeniffer: Wow. Yeah. Wow. Wow. >> Anastasia Zadeik: That's. >> Jeniffer: Yeah. >> Bethanne Patrick: That was so important to me. I really did hold on, I think, to depression because I
thought that was it. And that is such a great description of double depression because it is, you're depressed all the time. You start out depressed and you get more depressed. So, you know, I want people to be aware of that, too. It's not just bipolar syndrome. It's, you know, type one, too. There's just. Yeah, so keep asking questions. Keep, you know, advocating for yourself.
>> Anastasia Zadeik: Can I. Can I just pop in a question real quick? Is that RK Jennifer Bethanne, can you explain to the audience what, like, to listeners what double depression is like? >> Bethanne Patrick: What is it? I will try. I am not a professional. >> Anastasia Zadeik: No, no, no. Neither of us are professionals. We're supposed to say that right off the bat.
>> Bethanne Patrick: Right. so the way it was explained to me by this psychiatrist was that someone will have a first degree family member with bipolar syndrome. Could be one or two bipolar one or bipolar two. And they have depression and it doesn't seem to respond to treatment. What is happening is that that person is cycling just like the person with mania and depression, but they cycle from depression to
worst depression. so actually, you, let's say, pretend there is a norm because we all know normal is contextual. But if, there is a line and mania is above the line, the person with double depression starts out below the line and then in times of high stress, will go deeper. So it's a combination of chronic depression and clinical depression or major depressive, episodes. >> Anastasia Zadeik: So it's basically like cycling within depressed.
>> Jeniffer: Within a depressed state of mind but never rising above. >> Bethanne Patrick: Yeah. And I knew one of the scenes I have in the memoir is telling my then boyfriend, now husband of decades, one night, you know, we had been out on a date or whatever, and we were, you know, in a parking lot somewhere, you know, draw veil. But we were talking and I kept crying and crying and saying to him, there's something really wrong with me? Are you sure
you want to be with me? Because there's something wrong. And I know my editor and my agent hate it when I talk too much about something being wrong because of course as Anastasia and I have been saying, jennifer, it's not wrong. You're not wrong or bad. I'm just saying those were the words that I had at the time and it took so long for me to confirm that there wasn't something wrong with me. There was something that needed to be addressed. With me. There was something that needed to be.
>> Jeniffer: Something was not right. >> Bethanne Patrick: Exactly. >> Jeniffer: yeah. >> Bethanne Patrick: And so that's another thank you Anastasia for asking me to define it. It just goes back to what I said a couple of minutes ago, which was that you have to be your own advocate if you know there's something, you know, not something wrong, but something that is keeping you from having contentment, fulfillment. You know. happiness is such an odd word.
And the other side of nothing, as Anastasia talks about so beautifully in the novel, in her novel, is that it might be nothing but it might be everything. >> Bethanne Patrick: And I actually have completely changed my life. By pursuing a proper diagnosis and
treatment. It is possible you can be in your fifties and there can still be hope, there can still be change, there can still be things that, you know, make you wake up, you know, with more energy and all of this, it's just, I don't want anyone to give up, you know? >> Anastasia Zadeik: Yeah, absolutely. >> Jeniffer: Bethan, you're an incredible writer. I'm sure you hear that all the time. Yeah. Reading your work was a real. >> Bethanne Patrick: No. >> Jeniffer: Well, I'm here to tell you.
>> Anastasia Zadeik: Me too. >> Jeniffer: yeah, just absolutely brilliant. As I was reading your book I just kept stopping and rereading sentences and just grateful that I had the pleasure of reading it. And I hope that our listeners will buy both of these books because they are both great reads. But Bethanne, the way that you bring us into your world works so well. And I don't think I know anyone who doesn't have some experience with mental illness, either a family
or a friend or themselves. And you do it so well. Like, the pacing is really good because in parts it's funny, it's irreverent, but it's so honest and raw. And so I thank you for writing it and I know it wasn't easy. And you mentioned earlier, like of course writing this must have been really hard to go back into those states of being. Must have been very difficult for you. >> Bethanne Patrick: It was. It was very, very
difficult. And one of the things that I realized as I was working on this and having trouble and trying to get it structured properly was that I had never had a really solid family narrative. >> Bethanne Patrick: That is for a lot of reasons. And, you know, my parents were doing absolutely the best they could with what they had and what they were able to do. But, but because of the family history of mental illness and challenges, there were people that they didn't want to talk about that
much. There were people who were masking, there were people that no one, you know, discussed, et cetera, et cetera. And so one of the most important things you can do for your own children in this life is to give them that strong family story. There are so many ways to do it.
you know, I mean, we're not doing a parenting discussion right now, but, you know, one of the things I'm so grateful, to my husband for is during the years when I was really, at the very lowest point, he made sure we had family dinner every night, even if I was there in a bathrobe and just sort of trundled back to the bedroom afterwards. He did that for us and that now we can see the fruits of this. And I know Anastasia can also speak to this with her children.
we have such loving, connected, real relationships with our children. and there are no secrets, there are no pretending kinds of things. And so, although it was tough to get the writing done and to go back to some of these sad points some way in the past, some much more recent, I wanted to be sure to change the script. And so that's why, a couple of the chapters that are most important to me are the chapters in which I do show my conversations with our daughters.
And they were tough. They involved tears on both sides, but, but they did change things. And, it's just the kind of family life that I would see. I would watch it. I knew it existed. I had friends, I had classmates, and I would see this at their homes. And again, my parents weren't trying to do things poorly. It's just they didn't have all of the tools and knowledge that, you know, I have.
And let me tell you, they are the people that I have to thank for getting to this point, because they did make sure that I got to smith was amazing, amazing thing, and I will be grateful for that for, you know, all the time. >> Anastasia Zadeik: And I think that's another theme that's in both books is this idea of intergenerational impact. because I think we are all the product of our environments as well as our genetics.
And as you mentioned, Bethanne, so many other factors come into it, but we often, our gut reaction is to behave the way that we saw and to change. It is possible to change that. And I think that's a good message to get out there as well. Like, you don't have to keep repeating the ways that things were done in the past. You can change things. >> Jeniffer: Absolutely. Amen. Indeed. There's a couple themes in both books. Maybe not themes, but things that happen in both books. And one of them is
in Anastasia. In your book, Julia often does this thing where she steps outside of herself as if she's looking down on the scene that is happening. And it's a coping mechanism. And I don't know if you did this on purpose, Beth Anne, but there are times in the book when you start to talk about yourself in the third person. You do it
a couple times, like, I think, two or three times. And it's incredibly poignant and effective in making it feel, I'm guessing, how you felt, which was you had to step outside of it in order to look at it again. >> Bethanne Patrick: Yes, yes. Absolutely had to do that. It was very, very tough. And that's one of the challenges in writing memoir. And I know you both are involved in different kinds of communities. Anastasia, you're on the board of the International Memoir Writers association, for
example. so you know a lot about this, but choosing tenses and also choosing when and if to break the fourth wall. >> Anastasia Zadeik: Right. >> Bethanne Patrick: In memoir, this is. I learned so much about this in the process of teaching myself how to write memoirs, I said. And there were a couple of places, particularly in my chapter about the years when my husband was assigned to Berlin and we lived in West Berlin before the wall came down. I thought, I can't quite be there. I
can't quite access that. And, yeah, sometimes it was much safer to speak about myself, as you said, in the third person. but I hope that it, as you also said, was effective and not something that put readers off. So I'm really, really grateful to hear that. Thank you. >> Jeniffer: No, it didn't. Not at all. In fact, I think it was even more powerful because you get
how, difficult that was. And now we're looking at it from this outside perspective, and you also speak to the reader many, many times. Is that even possible? Does it even matter? You know, these parenthetical. >> Bethanne Patrick: Oh, I drove my editor crazy. >> Jeniffer: I fucking loved them, honestly. Like, occasionally, I swear. Sorry. Our listeners know this about me, so it's okay. yeah, I just, I loved it because you brought us in
and it was like you trusted us. And I think that matters in memoir. >> Bethanne Patrick: I do too. And you know what? That is such an important thing to say because one thing I know for sure there, I tried to only tell stories that were mine to tell. I don't know if I wholly succeeded in that. But what I know I did succeed in is I'm right in there. I am not holding myself above anything. I am very much a flawed character. Terrifically flawed character.
>> Jeniffer: Terrifically flawed. Yes. Thank you. >> Bethanne Patrick: So that is, one of the reasons I think when I do bring the reader in, as you said, that the reader can trust me because I am not playing games, I am not trying to win you over to my side. I am not trying to be rhetorical. I am actually, Asking the question in a very vulnerable way. >> Anastasia Zadeik: I think it's also great to acknowledge the reader is there. Right? Ah, they're there with you.
And I think in a way when you do break that fourth wall in an intentional way, it creates an opportunity for them to step into your shoes and to understand. It's a conversation. Books like this are a conversation between the writer and the reader, in my opinion. >> Bethanne Patrick: Isn't that true? And you know, one of the things Anastasia and I spoke about yesterday is that she originally intended to write a memoir, but her writing coach, said, okay, you know, this is not what you
are meant to be doing. And again, I'm not trying to take over the story, Anastasia. >> Anastasia Zadeik: No, no, no. >> Bethanne Patrick: I am, but I am, I thought that was so powerful that you listened and said, okay, I'm going to go into fiction right now. And here you are. You know, you've just published your second novel and it's so incredibly frickin fucking good. >> Anastasia Zadeik: This is making me my, this is making my release days.
>> Jeniffer: I was gonna say this is a good day to make it. >> Anastasia Zadeik: Great day. But you know, it's interesting because. So my writing coach is Marnie Friedman and she's also the programming director for the San Diego Writers Festival. And I met, but I met her as a writing coach first. >> Jeniffer: And she's my writing, she was my writing coach too, by the way. >> Bethanne Patrick: Oh, wonderful.
>> Anastasia Zadeik: Yeah, she's fantastic. And she, she's the one who told me I was too, I was still in the memoir, I was still living the story. And as a result, my emotions were almost too raw and they were coming across as angry and, bitter. And I didn't want that to be the story that I told. And I think she knew that, and she said, you just need to give it some space. And so that's another good thing for
listeners to know. Like sometimes the book that you are supposed to write is still to come. >> Bethanne Patrick: Yes. >> Anastasia Zadeik: You know? >> Jeniffer: Well, Marnie told me to do the same thing. Marnie has this power where she knows you need to write a story, even if you don't know that yet. And she tells you write it
as if no one is ever going to read it. And I think she knows that you're going to get all of the bitter anger out and on paper, but then you're letting them go, and that makes space to write the book that you actually need to write.
>> Anastasia Zadeik: Yeah. And, you know, one of the, one of the situations that I was dealing with, I was explaining to Bethanne, is I wanted to write a book about mothering because I was stepmothering, my husband's daughter's ex wife had bipolar disorder and addiction issues. And so I was watching someone with a bipolar mother trying to navigate the world in a way that was really difficult because she had no models for what, what quote unquote
normal looked like. And I don't mean that to say that bipolar disorder families are not normal. That's not what I meant. But just sort of like she didn't have a model for day to day life that wasn't chaotic. >> Jeniffer: Yeah, right. >> Anastasia Zadeik: And so I was trying to mother her, then her mother died. And at the same time, my mother, I was losing my mother to Alzheimer's. And so, And trying to mother my own two children through
all of this. And so, so a lot of that is in the other side of nothing. But it's fictionalized. It's some of those same emotions, but they're in Laura or they're in Arabella, but they're not. You know, I have that distance to be able to kind of assess it and say, where does this fit into a story? >> Jeniffer: M There were so many times in the book when I saw you and could hear your voice of stories, but they worked
so seamlessly. Like, no one else is going to know that. Right. But right down to the, Yorkshire pudding. >> Anastasia Zadeik: Yes. >> Jeniffer: Julia's favorite meal. Yeah, actually, Anastasia's children's favorite meal. >> Anastasia Zadeik: Yes. My kids are super traditional. And my father, for some reason, we're not english at all, but my father, every Christmas we had roast beef in Yorkshire pudding. And my kids are like, we have
to have it. One Christmas we were like, well, we were thinking about having this, and they were appalled that we would even consider it. So that did make it in. Yeah. She was making roast beef in Yorkshire pudding for Sam's birthday. >> Jeniffer: Exactly. Yeah. And as she was sticking the garlic into the fat, I saw your fingers and I thought to myself, I really want to go to Anastasia's for Christmas Eve. >> Bethanne Patrick: Thank you. I think. There we go. I think it's a date.
>> Jeniffer: There's a point in your book, Anastasia, where Sam, Sam says something to Julia. something about how Julia will likely rise out of this darkness. Or I guess it's third person omniscience. So Sam says Julia will likely rise out of this darkness, but he never will. I know you had a point in that talk. Hopefully I have the same point. This could go in a totally different direction. But my thinking was that not everyone's going to make it out of it.
>> Anastasia Zadeik: You know, this one of the things that I wanted to do with the other side of nothing. And I think, Bethan, you probably wanted to do the same thing with life. B is I want it to be realistic. So much of what we hear in the media, particularly about mental illness, is either sensationalized so it's over the top and you end up feeling kind of that these people are, are just weird. You know what I mean? Like just. >> Anastasia Zadeik: Off the wall or.
Everything turns out perfectly in the end. Right? >> Jeniffer: The happy ending. Yeah. >> Anastasia Zadeik: They fall in love or they get the right job or their husband comes home with flowers one day and they have a big talk and everything's better. And that's not the way depression and bipolar disorder work. It's a constant process for that. You may have a clinical depression that started from a situation and devolves into a clinical situation. And you may find your way out of that. Like
you may. With the right medication and the right therapy, you may kind of find your way to a place where you were before that situation tipped you. But for a lot of people, depression is something that is a lifelong thing. You're going to have it and you're going to have to manage it and it, and that management, your strategies may have to change over time. Julia's situation is clearly situational. That tips into clinical.
And sometimes though young people, a lot of, a lot of depression and bipolar disorder are diagnosed in young adults, it's a time when a lot of that's the onset. So. And with bipolar disorder, it is a lifelong thing for most, almost every person that I've ever read. Memoirs of. You know, Kay Redfield Jamison wrote this beautiful book called the Non Quiet mind. And she's still involved in it. And, she had this interesting perspective because she was a psychiatrist at Johns Hopkins and she had
bipolar disorder herself. And so she could write to both sides of it, as she puts it, as both the healer and the healed. But she acknowledges right off the bat this is something that you have to this year. It's not going to go away. You have to treat it your whole life. And so I think Sam recognizes that. And he's basically saying that to her, that's his opinion of the situation, is that she will get out of it. But he knows he never will. He's Sisyphus. He's gonna keep, he knows he's gonna.
>> Jeniffer: Keep pushing that rock. Boy, that really, that, worked out so well in this story. I was like, oh, my gosh. That was brilliant. And, Beth, I'm bringing it back to you. You know, when you finally do get your diagnosis, I mean, you make it very clear to the reader that you weren't healed. It, wasn't like suddenly, okay, it's better. You knew that you had to do the work, and it was hard work, and you're still doing the hard work, right?
>> Bethanne Patrick: Absolutely. Absolutely. The work does not end, and that doesn't mean that it is always traumatic and effortful. the work is something, and this is going to tie into something anastasia told me yesterday. So bear with me for a second. The work is what I do because the medications keep me stable so that I can learn what is best, what is, you know, making me most able to keep on
my path in this life. I don't want to sound too woo woo, but, if I did not have the gift of the medication, better living through chemistry, then I wouldn't be receptive to the work. And so one of the things Anastasia spoke to me about with her nephew's journey is that he happens to be against medication, which is an entirely valid stance. However, medication did get him to a point where he could start doing the work that he continues to do. And so there are so many
things. There are so many. Depending on who you are and where you are in your journey, you might need to look into the past. You might need to look into your current behavior. You might need to, discuss communication, with someone in your family or with a friend. There's so many different aspects of becoming fully human. And so I think that one of the favorite chapters for many people in the book is the chapter about my starting yoga called learning to bend.
>> Jeniffer: I loved that chapter. Yeah. >> Bethanne Patrick: Ah, thank you. that was a really important one for me, because originally I thought I was going to write, what would have been a magazine article about how long it took me to be able to do down dog. I have a shoulder injury. And so I thought, oh, this would be fun. This would be such a great yoga journal pitch, that kind of thing. I'm so glad that I never place that because that material was meant
to be in life. B that is part of the ongoing work, you know, for me, movement, body work, meditation, relearning how to communicate, with friends. And this is something that's really important to me because, I thought for so long, in so many different situations, middle school, high school, college, graduate school, wherever, that I was sort of a misfit, an outsider, that I didn't have friends. Let me tell you, when this book came out, I got so many. I mean, and when
I say so many, I'm not talking hundreds. I'm. My book is, you know, it's finding its audience. but I heard from scores of people who were in my past and they weren't just reaching out to say, wow, you wrote a book. I'm so impressed. You know, can I get your autograph? They were actually sharing love and support and
compassion for me. I just, last week got an email from a neighbor who moved away quite a few years back, saying, I read your book and it was truly moving to me and important and, you know, congratulations to you, blah, blah, blah. And I thought she didn't have to do that at all. and the fact that I. >> Anastasia Zadeik: Misinterpreted. >> Bethanne Patrick: So many relationships over the years is one of the things
that I'll continue working on. Not to say that means I have to reactivate all of those relationships. Or that I, you know, am, going to write a stunt memoir about, you know, finding everyone. What it means is that now, I am able to say there are people who truly care about me. How can I be there for them? How can I also recognize their real love and affection for me instead of seeing it, it through that fog of depression? Yeah.
>> Anastasia Zadeik: Ah, it does. I think I said earlier about my nephew, like he just, it colored everything. Everything. Every experience and relationships, as you've just pointed out. You know, you misinterpret the way people are behaving towards you because you're seeing it through that fog. >> Anastasia Zadeik: And it's. Yeah, clouding everything. >> Jeniffer: So another one of the themes that happens in both of these books is this idea of
identity for you, Bethanne. You were searching for your purpose, your identity. And I think, I mean, as all, we all do this as humans, we want to feel purposeful. And I think Sam does it in a way where if he just gets the perfect picture, if he has the perfect person by his side, everything is going to be okay. Right? Talk to us. Let's start with you, Bethan, about this, search for your identity.
>> Bethanne Patrick: Oh, that is such an important question, and I am not sure if it's one that I've fully answered yet, but it was. You know, there is a really interesting thing going around right now that I'm sure all of you have seen about birth order and how it affects, you know,
your life. And one of the things that I literally just saw online is that eldest daughter syndrome is something that really does affect your happiness quotient, if you will, because eldest daughters really do feel so much responsibility for families of origin, the family that they are, born into. they often feel they need to carry the, you know, the mental load. We used to, you know, that, you
know, women's labor. We used to talk about, you know, all of the things from holiday cards to buying gifts to organizing get togethers and that sort of thing. And so it's tough to really have fun when you think that you're responsible for everyone else's fun. One of the things about my identity that I needed to learn is that with depression in the background, it's always there. I'm not pretending, as I said, a little while ago, that I am cured or that depression
is curable. It is treatable, it is manageable, and you can get to a very high functioning level. I don't know if I'm using the term high functioning correctly, but what I mean is, is you. You can become a person who really just feels very balanced. However, what I wanted to say about that is some people that I spoke to during and after the writing of the manuscript would say, but you're so funny, or, but you were such a goofball. I remember you as this, and I thought, thought, that is who I am.
Right? And I don't mean I'm a goofball. >> Anastasia Zadeik: No, sometimes. >> Bethanne Patrick: But I am a very optimistic person. I am a very happy, and sometimes more spontaneous than I would ever believe, you know, that eldest daughter thing, I mean, I do feel a lot of responsibility, and I am able to remember that now. So when you talk about identity, I had to. I mean, I could go in
another direction. I'm not going to keep going and going, going, but, you know, yes, partly it's about saying I'm a writer, I'm an artist, I'm a creative, and I am going to do this, you know, this kind of work for my daily, you know, existence. But it's also about saying I really am that funny person. I really am someone who can lift people's spirits. not all the time. That's, you know, but I am not just my depression. >> Anastasia Zadeik: Yeah, your depression doesn't define you.
>> Jeniffer: Yeah, well, I mean, how many years have you been married? >> Bethanne Patrick: Oh my gosh. >> Jeniffer: 37 now. >> Bethanne Patrick: No, it's. Now it's 35. This year. It's 39. >> Jeniffer: Okay. Okay, 30. >> Bethanne Patrick: I got married. >> Jeniffer: Congratulations. >> Bethanne Patrick: Thank you. Right out of college. Next year is our 40th anniversary, so. 40th anniversary. 40th, reunion. Yep, I've got it. You know. Yeah. So a long, long time.
>> Jeniffer: And I was thinking as I was reading the book, you know, I mean, I've known a lot of people who suffer from bipolar, borderline, personality disorder, and various personality disorders. And those people have a hard time functioning. But you function in a way that allowed you to maintain your marriage, to go to college. Not everyone can do that. So it tells me a lot about you. I think the person that the world sees may be different than who you felt you were inside.
>> Bethanne Patrick: I think so. And I think, let me put it this way. According to my last three or four psychiatrists, and I've had more than some people because my husband was active duty military for 21 years. So we moved a lot around a lot, and, but we've been in the same place for quite a while now. the last few psychiatrists have said, no, look, you do not have a personality disorder. >> Bethanne Patrick: That doesn't mean I never did.
Okay. I might well have been a, raging borderline or a narcissist or whatever. I think this is something that is very interesting to me. But again, my current psychiatrist says she's not surprised. One of the things that depression actually gave me is I started the work, the therapy, the, looking at what was happening in high school. And so, so staying with that all the way through may have helped me. I kind of did my own CBT, if you will, my own cognitive behavioral
therapy. just because I had depression and I needed to do something about it. I wasn't doing everything because I didn't know everything, but I was able to break through a lot of that. that's one of the hardest things. As you know, Jennifer, for people with BPD, etcetera, is getting them into treatment. >> Jeniffer: Yeah. >> Bethanne Patrick: So, I think that is really interesting. And now I'm really grateful that I'm able to.
If I'm doing something that is hurtful, then I'm going to talk to someone about it. You know, not just hurtful to myself, hurtful to other people. I'm going to say, you know, should I have handled this differently? You know, how can I ask for forgiveness? and I want to. >> Jeniffer: Yeah. Well, that's the thing, is, you want to. And you, you recognize that in the book that you, you have a lot of hard work to do, but you were really, you were willing to do it.
>> Anastasia Zadeik: It's a self awareness thing, right? Like, you sound incredibly self aware. And so many people aren't. So many people just go through life behaving how they behave without thinking about how it impacts others. And what you just said was, if I feel like I've hurt someone, I'm gonna go and figure out why in the book. >> Jeniffer: There were some aha. Moments for me in reading life be, and one of them was, you're having a conversation with your daughter, and she's talking
to you about how hard it was for her. And you realize you have to shut up and listen and not make excuses and just listen to what she experienced. And what I took from your words was that you were so deep in your depression and in your own sadness that, that made you a narcissist. You weren't able to see outside of you because you were deep with this heavy blanket that clouded this fog that kept you, in this state of sadness. Deep, deep sadness. And I thought, oh, my God, I know. Narcissists,
several. And I wonder, is that what it is they're dealing with something so heavy and so traumatic, whether it's bipolar or whatever it is, it's making them a narcissist. And, oh, my God, if they knew. >> Bethanne Patrick: It's really interesting to me. I definitely felt at that moment like, oh, I have been too self absorbed. And that is something that depression does. It forces you to think about yourself all the time. Oh, my God, how boring. Now that I don't have to do that, it's such a. Such
a burden lifted. But I also have learned a lot about narcissism them. And, I can say that, you know, and Anastasia has much more psychology, expertise than I do. But what I will say is, what you just said, jennifer, might have some validity because narcissists are really made so early in life, m through, you know, trauma and, you know, really terrible emotional neglect, not just childhood emotional neglect, but in infancy and so on one hand. Okay, that's
narcissism. It is. But what is that if not a form of depression? What is, you know, that kind of early, early trauma? I just. It's so awful to think about. It's so awful to think about. I said to my psychiatrist, kept saying, you know, narcissists are this, and you need to stay away from them. They're very difficult. They're very, you know, they can't be fixed. I said, but I'm sorry. I said, maybe I'm like some kind of wacko empath, but I feel for a person who experienced that kind of neglect,
they didn't do it. They didn't do it to themselves. Someone else, you know, didn't give them the early things that all human beings, all human babies need. I don't know. >> Jeniffer: But I will say that not all narcissists come from a background that was abusive. So it's like. But again, we have to say what none of us are, the clinical hair, but I just. >> Anastasia Zadeik: A little bit of humor about the narcissist thing. >> Anastasia Zadeik: in addition to depression, I had severe social
anxiety. And I was always worried about every little thing. What I wore, what I said, Did we get too early? Did I leave too late? Did I not say the proper goodbye? Did I. It was just insufferable. My husband put up with this for years. I would wake up at two in the morning and just be obsessed with some minor thing or, you know, did I wear the wrong shoes? I mean, just insane stuff. And I use that phrase knowing that. >> Jeniffer: It'S probably insane phrase.
>> Anastasia Zadeik: Yeah. but one night he said to me, honey, you're just not that important. And he followed up by saying, no one else is awake right now thinking about your shoes. and he was so right. But I think that depression and anxiety can bring you. Anxiety can make you so focused on every little wrong thing you might have done that it does crowd out a lot of
the experience. Right. You're in this situation and you're so worried about what you just said or what you're wearing that you missed the joy of the event that you're attending and the conversations that people are having around you, because all you can think is, oh, that person just looked over at me. Were they looking at me funny? Is it because I'm wearing the wrong
dress? Like you? I could go into this, like, incredible circle, of just self deprecation and loathing, where I was so convinced that I had done absolutely everything wrong, and it was such a refreshing thing. And now when I think about it, it makes me laugh. And whenever I start to go just a little bit into that, I just think to myself, you're not that important.
>> Jeniffer: Well, I think that we should end because we're coming toward the end of our hour, which I think we could talk about this for many, many hours, and it's such an important topic. but thank you both for writing your books. The other side of nothing is available everywhere. Books are sold as of today. Of course, we'll drop this episode on a different day than today, but still. Dear
listener, please buy this book. It's so good. And I wanted to point out that Anastasia has in the back of her book, just, crisis helplines resources. It's so important if you or someone you know is suffering from mental illness or personality disorders. and I love, bethan, how you separated the two. They are very different, although often people can have both. so thank you for doing that. But if anyone who does know of someone, please get help.
>> Anastasia Zadeik: Yeah. And I just. I only recently learned after I wrote the book that a lot of the resources for those who are struggling with mental illness are also resources for their family, friends, community members. And there are programs now available through organizations like Nami and, and, the AFSP 988. A lot of these have actual training programs. You can bring them into your community, and you can bring. They're going into
schools. They're going to high schools. So there is a shift, and I hope that we continue to move that way. But definitely, if you see someone struggling, you can be that person. You can be that lifeline, and you can reach out and say, I know someone that is. That is in this position. What can I do? How can I help them? And they will help you help them. >> Jeniffer: Nice. >> Anastasia Zadeik: So that's, I think, a good thing to say before.
>> Jeniffer: but then did you want to add anything to that before? >> Bethanne Patrick: I just. Yeah, I'll just quickly say that I agree we need more education. Never too much. And again, I want to say to people, if you aren't ready to share everything, that's fine. But I hope that you can listen either by reading Anastasia's novel or my memoir, or both. That's right. Or many, many
others. And just, you know, the m more that we can all share these experiences, and the more we can all open up, the more I hope even those who are feeling very reserved about what is happening to them or to their loved ones will reach out to the professionals that we are not will, you know, keep trying. And I know that isn't easy. I am not. I am really fortunate to have excellent health insurance and access in the DC metro area to terrific caregivers and different kinds of providers.
I know that isn't the case for everyone out there, that many people live in places where there might be only one therapist in town and you have to drive a couple of hours to see a really good psychiatrist. But if you can do it, please do it. Please. because there are so many different ways to be in danger from mental illness and I want everyone to be safe. I want everyone to feel that they matter. You matter. You do. >> Jeniffer: Amen to that. Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you
both so much for joining us. We really appreciate your time, your books, and I hope everyone does go out and buy both of these books. They are both excellent reads in addition to good stories and opening our mind to the realities of mental illness. It is an illness and unless we know more about it, we're never going to be able to help each other people.
>> Jeniffer: You can learn more about Bethanne on her website, bethanpatrick.com, follow her on thebookmaven on Twitter or x whichever you prefer, and listen to her missing pages podcast. You can learn more about anastasia on Instagram at anastasiazaddyk and of course on her website, anastasiaZadeike.com dot. Again, thank you so much ladies for being here. >> Anastasia Zadeik: Thank you for having us. >> Bethanne Patrick: Thank you. Really an incredible experience.
>> Jeniffer: This has been a great conversation and folks, I hope you will buy your book their books. This has been another episode of the premise. You can visit us online at ah, thepremisepod.com and subscribe and rate or review the premise wherever you get your podcast. Those reviews really help us get the word out and increase our subscriber base. We thank you in advance.
You can follow me, your host on Instagram, Enfer Grace, or follow me on Facebook at jennifer thompsonconsulting until next week, thanks for listening.