¶ Intro
All right, we're gonna give it another try. I hit the record button.
Welcome, welcome. Thank you for joining us. We're here for the Post Secondary Transition podcast where we like to have conversations around the ins and outs and everything in between of the transition process for families of students with disabilities. I am one of the posts. My name is Meghan Smallwood, and I am a public school transition coordinator, and who is my co-host?
And I'm Patrick Cadigan. I'm a public school special education teacher. And before we begin our conversation, we do like to give our listeners a definition of what we're talking about. So when we are discussing Post Secondary Transition, it really focuses between ages 14 and 21. And really helps answer that question of what do you want for your child after they leave
school? We're looking to help answer that question by asking parents to think long term milestones, the milestones ahead of you the research resources, the goals you have.
And how do we define long term? Well, what do you want your child to be doing after the school bus stops coming, which is different for everybody. And it's a completely individualized experience. But along with that, individuality can come from loneliness. In some cases, it can be a sense of isolation for families, and it's just a really unique experience. But there are other families who are going through the process probably at the same time you are.
And along that journey, there's milestones that you need to focus on. Some of those are built around timeframes. Others can be at your own timeframe when you're comfortable, and you're ready. But using your child's school experiences will really help while doing the research. Using the resources at your disposal, such as a school transition specialist or other teachers. That's imperative. It is a lot of information, there is lots to
consider. And in many cases, the answers will not always immediately present themselves. There might be some give and take. And there will be things that you do that may not have the desired outcome. Trying to do it all at once, though, can feel really consuming. So we're here hoping to help clear away some of that fog. All right, so for this week, we're going to swing back around
and do another interview. For this week, we're going to interview that he Dooley, who is a former transition coordinator. But I'm gonna go ahead and let Meghan set this up.
¶ Betsy Dooley
Tonight, I have the honor of introducing Betsy Dooley, who is a former transition coordinators recently retired. We are very happy to have you, Betsy to share some information.
Well, thank you very much, Meghan and Patrick, I'm very happy to be here. And thanks for having me on your podcast, which I have listened to. And it is really, really good. And it's helpful for families. So I appreciate that you guys are
I would say then that that's a good place to start. Why don't just to give the listeners a little bit of background about you. Tell us about who you are and what you did.
¶ Background (pre-Transition)
Okay, well, my career started on a little different path. My grad...first graduate degree is in criminal justice and the administration of justice and I spent three years in a work release facility working there and then seven years in a local correctional facility in the state of Maryland. And I started there as a treatment coordinator who handled addiction services, counseling, mental health counseling, I ran the
disciplinary team. And then I moved into the administration which is, you know, staffing, facility, anything that goes wrong, you know, do you have enough people there who...? What are the situations going down? Are the staff trained? etc. So...
How that prepares you for in life in school!
Well, an institution is an institution and when you work in a correctional institution or an educational institution, you're still entrusted to care for those people and provide for their Well being and, you know, consider their welfare. So it really was good training on some levels before going to high school. And then I took some time off, I have quite a few children took some time off and I started at the end of my career. You're in criminal
justice. They had asked me to teach at the police and correctional training academy. I loved it. And from there I started teaching criminal justice and juvenile delinquency and, you know, Sociology at a couple of local community colleges, which I did part time for six years. And then I jumped into the public school. I personally had
¶ Into the school system
a couple of children with IEPs. And when I saw the job come up, the first thing that I was asked is, did I know the paperwork, and I did know the paperwork, inside and out. So I was hired, and I went back to school while I was working, and I was provisionally certified, went back to school and got 48 additional credits in special
education. And here I am. So I've been in the classroom 12 years, and then I was an itl in at my high school, and then I was in transition as that position as it has expanded over the last few years greatly.
Yes, it has, you have quite the background. That's the I always love hearing about it.
Yeah, I like to do career days.
¶ Transition Expansion
And as somebody is, who's relatively new to this whole thing, and I always kind of argue out that I am the surrogate for the families, how, how has it changed? Like when you talk about how it expands? What do you mean by that it's expanded?
Well, 20 years ago, IEP's didn't really include transition. mean, we were very focused on getting students through school, and getting the credits they needed and moving on. As time has passed, we really give a lot of time and attention now to where is this student going? What are his goals and objectives? What does he want for himself or herself? And how do we help them get
there? We have the transition coordinator really has the ability to help support the families, particularly those you know, certificate bound, they have so many things to think about. And diploma-bound students, we really need to look ahead with them and say if you're going to go to college, and you currently have an IEP, what do you know, your IEP? Do you know, what's in your IEP? Do you know what your accommodations are? What makes you successful in the classroom?
It's not just me that needs to know that it's the student. So educating them about their IEP, and then just working from where do you want to go? I really, I always thought that as a transition coordinator, and having sat in the seat of itl, or team leader, that transition meeting for students moving from middle to high school, that's the conversation, that's the beginning of that conversation that the transition teachers should be in. Because those kids
are starting to think ahead. And here's the classes, here's what we offer, here are opportunities, what do you think you want to do, and then the process begins. And it can go from, you know, soup to nuts, there are things in the community that we can refer students to and, and help them with and there are things in the school system. And, you know, there are, I would tell you, I've learned as much from the kids as, as I hope they have for me over the years, because transition is a real process.
And it can be it can look very different for every single kid.
And it's ever changing, too, for each kid.
Ever changing. Yeah. You really need as a transition teacher. You really need to get to know the kids the best you can so that you can help them develop their strengths and interests. And some students don't even know how, how great they are, what their strengths are, for instance, being bilingual. So because like Well, yeah, I do speak another language, like do you recognize what a great skill that is? To be able to do that a in your head be out know, in a
work place or even in school? I mean, that's a i, I think it really helps to draw attention to a lot of their you know, things they don't even know they traits, characteristics, strengths they have, they don't even recognize.
When you talk about educating the students about their own IEP, what was something that surprised you about the process of that?
Well as students, younger students move towards high school, in high school, we want those two Students at all of their IEP meetings, we want them to know what's in their IEP. When you're a young student, your parents go into your family Guardian, and they write the IEP and they talk about the services. By the time those students get to high school, it's really important for them to know themselves and what they need. And why did we give you that accommodation? Do you need it? Do you use it?
It's, it's really important to include the student in, in those IEP conversations.
It's so surprising to me how many students? First of all, there's a couple that I've met that don't even know they have an IEP, which is kind of parent led, they didn't want the child to know that they were different, which that's a whole nother conversation. But it always surprises me when I sit with the student and they don't
know their accommodations. So that I think has been something and I know, Betsy, you're big on this too, like just making sure from freshman year, you know, what are your accommodations? What do you use the most think about how you can make sure you're getting those an advocate for yourself, because that's what you're going to need moving forward.
¶ Students & their IEP
And then Betsy, one question that I have is, is that, by-and-large, were the students interested in learning about their IEP? Or was it something that they just weren't, that was not their focus, that was not something that they were interested in?
Might be a little combination of, they weren't as interested and they didn't have a need to know. And as they go through high school, they have a need to know, particularly diploma-bound students who are headed off to colleges or to jobs, and how do those accommodations translate into the workforce? And how are you going to secure those accommodations when you get to
college? That is when the conversation becomes really important for them, because and I tell all the students, particularly my students, that are juniors moving into seniors, when you go to college, they aren't going to say, Hi, Mom, can you tell us about, you know, Joey's disability, because that's not how it goes, that student has to be able to articulate and advocate for themselves.
And that's why it's such an important conversation for them to know, what was in their IEP, what was it for, and how is it going to translate when they get older, it's the accommodations in particular that are most important. There's no specialized instruction in college, but there is the use of your accommodations. And there are, you know, there's Disability Support Services. That's a huge piece of what we do later in the, in the transition discussion.
Throughout high school. The first most important I really do, I would love to see transition coordinators, go to the eighth grade IEP transition meetings, and start talking to those students early, and then get to know them. You know, I spent a lot of time in tutorial classes where you can really converse with the kids. If you think you we give them these transition assessments every year, and do transition
activities with them. If if one assessment in order for students, we had a toolbox full of them that we could use, I won't use one that wasn't as common, but it might give me more information. I think the whole point of helping a student in transition
¶ Helping a student in Transition
is for them to understand themselves, recognize their skills, recognize their interests, and then see how those can be married. Because there are so many jobs out there and there's so many different career paths. I, I the most meaningful part of the job to me was being able to say Have you ever thought about this job? Have you ever thought about that job? Have you thought about how useful Your skills are in, you know, whatever the occupation
they might be interested in? You do have your share of students that say, Hey, I think I think I want to be a professional athlete and you're like, wow, Okay, but let's think about Plan B, because...
Let's have a backup plan just in case.
...have a backup, just in case. Yeah. Or, or, you know, some of the students that they stress so struggle with their academics and then and then you're you know, are like Okay, we are between needing interventions for reading for math for you know, helping them in a tutorial class. And and yet still trying to steer them and give them opportunities. There's not always time or all the classes they need and the opportunities we want to provide etc.
¶ Always college..?
I think that one of the things that's always interested me is especially as I've gotten into transition and tried to understand it is, is that I recognized very early on that a lot of the conversations that I hear about are very focused on college. But I kind of like what you were saying earlier, this was not something
that I've always been doing. I came from the construction field, and the company that I worked for the owner, my best friend, actually, he always advocated that for the students to for the trades, right to electricians, and plumbers and bricklayers. And he, you know, he would always say that it is, it's tough work, it's hard work, it's backbreaking work, in some cases. But if you get good at it, you're gonna do Well. And I just, I just don't feel like the
focus. I think that there's such a focus on college, that sometimes that gets that gets left out of the conversation.
And I do, one of the things I've always done is sat with every student in special ed and talk to them about their schedules. They have to select their classes every year in January. And I start that conversation in December, and start talking to the juniors, the sophomores, and freshmen, Hey, what are you going to take next year? What
are you thinking? Or they'll all have that conversation with them about what do you want to do when you, you know, when you grow up, so to speak, and, and they'll start saying to them, Hey, you know, you might want to think about taking anatomy and physiology as a senior or did you know, we have this academy for construction, you know, those kinds of things.
One of the hardships for the kids, particularly those that might be interested in some of the trades or the, you know, the ARL academies, which are phenomenal is it is two classes as a junior in three classes as a senior. And I find some of the students really have trouble because they don't have five extra spaces in their schedule.
For that mean, yes, they might be able to avoid two years of foreign language, but if they want an academy, and they want to be as ready as they can be for college, there's a number of considerations for the classes they want to make sure they have on their transcripts. And then you have to have, you have to have a really good relationship with families in order to say, what do you think about a five year high school career...
Yep.
...or longer, because that's not always a welcome conversation.
That can be a very tough conversation, because everyone has it in their head, they need to fit into that cookie cutter for years. Otherwise, you're looked at it today, like almost a failure. And it's not true at all. But I think, you know, so driven to get it done and move on to the next step of our life.
And there are some students for whom they just need the extra year... You know, they can't get through a math class
Absolutely. or... But it's the same thing with college, how many people who just if you need that scheduling, to take just a couple classes each semester, you do it at your own pace. So I feel like, you know, high school is the same thing. You know, if you need to just take less classes one semester, or I know, at our school, you know, they'll try to match one of the more difficult classes with an easier class so that they're not so
bogged down by bull. So it just you're right, it does take a lot of collaboration with the parents with the other team members of the school, but it's possible.
Yes, and with their guidance counselor's it really does take a lot of collaboration. And sometimes, and I tell kids this, particularly because I'm old enough to be their grandmother, but I, I say to them, you know, time is a gift. If, if five years of high school can offer you an opportunity, that you may not be able to go out and get on your own elsewhere, you really need to think about, you know, and, and those, and the students for whom the additional reading, writing, math support is
necessary. Take those while you can, time is a gift, you don't have to be out of high school and in four year and if you're really set on it, then take some summer school classes. You do just have to be very collaborative with the student with the family. And...
And I think it's okay to have that conversation from day one. I mean, not, you know, it doesn't hurt just to throw it out there for all of them so that everyone can start wrapping their head around it.
Very true. And the assessments that we do with the
¶ Transition Assessments
students for transition, they're really helpful. And I think in our transition pages, we summarize those, particularly when we find something that you know, really, really represents who the student is, and maybe the student doesn't see that in themselves, but we see that in them. And we say You know what? We're going to we're going to summarize this, my transition pages. I know I tried to tell a story. So I left in there, grade
nine grade 10, grade 11. So there was a, if anybody read anything in the IEP, that they would, they would be able to know Oh, this is, this is where the students started and what they thought they wanted...
And it's fun, too. I like telling the student that, you know...
Yes. ...when they reach senior year, I'll be like, you know, all four years, you told me the same thing that has, or especially the ones who may be freshman year, they wanted to be a video game designer. And now here we are senior year, and they've decided a whole different thing. It's fun to see how developed and come into their own.
Yes, very true. And I that's the first thing I say, "Oh, what did you tell me you want to do last year?" And they say, "I don't know, what did I say?" You tell them like, "Oh, no."
Yeah. I don't know what I was thinking.
Or you're right. Some, some students come in, and they say, "This is what I love this, this is what I want to do."
Yep
And they and they, and then you can really, you know, zero and I got you need to take this class, this class, think of this opportunity do this. Just, it's, it's really, really rewarding to have a conversation with a student who starts to see in themselves, what we see as strengths. Yeah, that's one year like, oh, this was great. I, it is a, it's a it's one of the best things, and conversation you can have with a
And that was kind of my next question about kid. what you were most passionate about when you were working with the students on the diploma track?
Yeah, any student, any student diploma or certificate is for them to know themselves, and appreciate their strengths. All those kids have something to offer. And they, they just, I call them kids, but all those students, so many of them have wonderful personal characteristics. And an even though they say, I don't have a clue what I want to do, but you know, the student has great people skills, or is really good with numbers or problem solving.
And you just say, you know, here's jobs, where many of the people that are super successful in this career field, have skills just like you, you already have skills that are, you know, employable. And and even if it's just, Hey, you didn't know you wanted sales, but you have this great ability to connect with other people. And, you know, there's one student I can think of just a greatest, I'd love to this young
man. And, and I finally said to him one day, I think you could sell ice to an Eskimo and he would do it just a funniest conversation. Because he didn't, he was like, what, but he, you know, it's, it's that conversation that is, that is the most rewarding part of transition is when the student starts to understand the skills and their inner strengths that they have.
And it's so important, because I feel like you know, the ones that are struggling the most to they're just so like, beaten down with, you know...
Yes.
...my grades are terrible, I can't do this. I can't I'm behind on this. So to have those kinds of conversations about Well, you're good at this. This is what you know, your future could be like, let's talk about some some exciting things. It's, it's just a little bit more motivating for them.
Yes, then you never want to squash a dream. But you know, I I try and tell kids Well, I think on the you know, there are other things you can do if you want to be a doctor, and you know, you don't want to do you know, 12 years of preparation. You there's other ways to include medicine in what you wanted to interesting, those conversations. Those are super meaningful. And, you know, it's great when you can see the light bulb, getting to know the kids and getting to other families is
¶ Biggest benefits
the biggest benefit.
I was gonna ask, what did you did you enjoy getting to work with the families a lot, and like building those relationships with them? Because I know I like that part of the job.
Yeah, I like that part of the job, too. And I think you are never immune, that is a that is also a process and you're never too early to start that you. Again, we should be reaching out in grade eight and saying, Hey, this is who I am. And this is why you're gonna see me every year in high school. And this is what we're going to talk about. And this is what I'm here to help you with.
That was one thing you said before, too, that I wanted to highlight because I was just talking with a couple of the other transition coordinators the other day about this because we were talking about sessions or meetings to have for parents moving forward in that meeting came up about
grade eight. And I know a lot of times when they're coming into high school, the thought is more directed towards like the transition to high school and how are they going to fit in and we have to worry about this and They don't want to necessarily talk about, you know, the future. But I feel like it's a perfect opportunity as a transition coordinator to kind
of fit yourself in there. And let them know that you're here on their side and just kind of start mentioning like clubs, activities, things that align with school, but really, you're trying to help them find their interests and their you know what they like. But then your name kind of sticks in the parents and the students mind. And then you build that relationship. So as they get older, they realize that you are that support that they really could lean on, for, you know, more things.
Absolutely. And students, I tell all the students on here all I mean, when I was at school, I was there all the time, and they could come in, and literally ask me anything. I don't know what to do about, you know, my homework, I'm falling behind, where do I get extra help? How
do I do this? How do I get how do I make an appointment, my guidance counselor, whatever the question was, I would tell them, just seek, seek someone out or seek me out, find me, here's where I, here's my office, come anytime, no matter what the question is, you can ask it. And I think that's just part of building the relationship with the students. So they were
comfortable. But you know, there were, it's just another opportunity, I would hope if a student went to guidance and asked a question, they'd say, you might want to reach out to your transition coordinator and ask for help with that particular apprenticeship or something. I do think our apprenticeships are great for our students. And many of the students for which they are best, the best fit, that might be a five year conversation, yeah, because it is a time
consuming thing. They need to be older because they need their own transportation. So they need to have a license, many of them for that. So that is not a typical conversation. That's a little bit, you know, you have to include the family. And that's what you have to plan for that.
But if it's a field that they're super passionate about, and knowing that they can get in with an employer who's basically going to train them to hire them. I think it's definitely a worthwhile conversation. Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of great opportunities, and it's just a matter of making sure that all the students know that.
¶ Challenges of the process
What are some of the challenging aspects of the job that you had
Um, I think one of the challenging things is you to deal with? can't stress often enough that transition is a process and it is never too early to start the process. You know, there's a lot of factors that go into it. There's a lot of, you know, what does the family want? What does the student want? What does this look in the school help with? What what community resources are there? It's kind of a Where
do you blend all that? And, and there have been a lot of changes over the years in what's offered out in the community, what help us out in the community, what the school resources are, what we do. So I think that was a challenge. Just coordinating all of the services, and it is it's very timely, it's a timely process. So that's, you know, you, you just got to keep on keeping on and tell them just
start this early. Another challenge is to work with students and right to help them set realistic goals for careers. Yeah. Even if that's when you hate the professional athlete. Okay, Well, there might be 60 people on a professional football team, but there's only 12 on that NBA team. So you might have to, you know, some very realistic goals. And Okay, and you're gonna go to college for sports, that's great. But you also have to study something, what are you going to
study? So just trying to create a picture of the world that they can understand, and I don't know...
Something a little more attainable.
Yeah. Something attainable, something that's a little tangible for them.
Yeah.
That is that was always a little bit more of a challenge. And some students I would think, Okay, you can have that goal. We're gonna we're gonna work on your one skill, we do know that you have that's a great skill. So we, you know, we're hoping we do that with kids. I also think there's, I would I personally would like to see more opportunities for students who may not be headed to college but want or don't think they want to go to college, but they really do. Want to work and they aren't
sure where to start. And I think it would be helpful if they could, we could introduce them to the world of work, and not just not just your work study, which isn't even, you know, open to every student, I just would like to see more work opportunities.
That's a great point, because I feel like we have preparation for college, obviously, preparation for some of the trade schools, but there's really no preparation for just employment competitive employment for those students who that's what they want to do so...
Right.
Yeah.
I would agree. And it's a hard thing to do.
Yeah.
Because many times, those are the same students that need all of their academics and interventions. And those are also really important. Again, time is a gift.
Yeah.
You, you know, reading, writing and your math skills have to be a focus for as long as they can be. And, and that's why it's, you know, it is hard to have the five year conversation, but I do think we have a lot to offer for students who are open to...
Yeah.
...extending their high school careers.
I agree. Did you come across many situations
¶ Student focus vs Family focus
where maybe the student's goal or career interest did not align with what the family's career goal interest was?
Yes, absolutely. But ultimately, the student has to has to be the one that goes home every day to his family. And he has to have that conversation as Well. And I think it was most important for me to help that student figure out if this is what you want, how do you facilitate the conversation of these are the goals I have in mind? I also tell students, you know, people change their careers all the time. I think everybody I know. That is just helping them to understand why do you want that?
And what does your family want? Do you understand why your family wants that? And then just facilitating either a conversation with a family or helping the student to be able to address that.
Yeah, just another opportunity for them to advocate for themselves, too.
Yeah, they really have to practice that. Starting at home is most important, right? Because they have to advocate for themselves rest of their lives.
Yeah.
So the better they are, the better it will be for them.
Yeah, it won't be as much of a shock when they leave us and move on to the next step.
I think another really great thing is just celebrating all their achievements. When kids do something that you've hoped for you, you've encouraged them to do, and they do it and they do it. While it's like I was so awesome. Tried never to miss an opportunity to tell a kid to tell a student just how great they were, or what they learned was so impressive, or, you know, give them feedback, because
that's really important. And, you know, it was just great that as a transition coordinator, you have the ability to see the students and be that person that gets a chance to talk to them.
Yeah, it's always fun to go to graduation, and you have so many students walking across the stage that you're really you were there. You were their cheerleader, you know, along with the teams, but like it just it feels good.
Yeah, it does feel good. I'm really looking forward to graduation this year.
¶ Finding real interest
Think that's all the questions, Patrick, did you have any others?
Multiple other avenues that we can go down? This is a good setup, because we've never had the, where we rarely have had the conversation around the diploma side of things. I will say that that was one of the things that I was thinking about was what do you how do you deal with when a student has their idea of a trajectory? And then you have the family's idea of their trajectory, and they are either wildly different or just not, clearly not aligned. I don't even know if I would say
avoiding that challenge. But just working with that challenge.
Yeah,
It's definitely a work in progress.
Because we we recently there was a student who, through a mutual friend, they the student had communicated an interest in broadcasting. And so we facilitated a conversation with the student and I just, you know, me thinking about it, I was like, "Okay, well, you're gonna have to worry about this and this and this and this..." and that, you know, probably gave them a laundry list of things, not necessarily something that they had to do
right away. But looking ahead, these are the things that if this is something that you want to do, these are, these are the things that you're going to want to think about. And I remember I think that the student was like, "Okay, Okay, yeah, I got it. I got it. That's great." And mom was like, "Whoa, we hadn't thought of that stuff. Okay, Well, thank you for letting us think about that..." And, again, the provocative conversations and how and when do you have them.
Well, I think that goes into the whole researching, and, you know, really taking the time to dive into what you say is an area of interest. But is it really an area of interest? Are you just kind of throwing that out there? Because that's what you've heard, or that's what you
Or you think it's super cool. Yeah...
Yeah.
Like game design.
Exactly. But then you actually get into and you're like, "Oh, I don't want to do that". Or Betsy, like you said, "I don't want to go to school for 12 years to be a doctor. Like, that's crazy. I just want to get out of the door in high school." So...
Although I will say in Betsy, as you were talking about it, I started to think about, you know, having that conversation with the student and with the family, as I'm thinking about it right now, in the moment, I'm like, you know, if we're looking at it as a process, what do we concentrate on first, you know. So maybe my approach to it was like, "Hey, do you know, think about this? And this and this? And this?" Well, maybe not
necessarily do that. Maybe take a step back and go, Okay, Well, what can we focus on now, because the hardware side of things could be a lot of fun. Broadcasting and writing your own show and doing your own content. That's a different skill set. But like, if you just like, putting things together and knowing where to plug a microphone in and knowing where the record button is, I mean, that's that, that can be a valuable skill set.
That's a very valuable skill. Normally, if you're my age
I can I can hear myself teasing my mom now. "Okay, Mom, this is the power button. Press down."
Yeah, I think I think there's, as, as transition is a huge process, you, you don't have to do one thing
first. And one thing second it, it can be a culmination of many different conversations, and many different, you know, meetings with a student that you are, I, I really think the most important thing we can do for a student is to help them again, see the strengths they have, that come fairly naturally to them that are things they enjoy, and how that you know, might work into a job, and then all the jobs on the periphery of those interests, because some
are equally as important. And students might not think of those. So just explorations really important career exploration, and then getting to know themselves. I mean, in ninth grade, our typical, you know, theme was focused on the learner, what are your learning behaviors? What do you need most help with? etc? And then it it got into what are your, you know, what do you like? What do you like to do? What are your career skills that you might
have? And then how do they translate into the work world? And, again, you know, kids don't, I think many students don't see the value in, in their own personal traits sometimes.
And it's, it's huge when you go to work, nobody wants to work with, you know, people who can't communicate or, you know, don't don't like other people, and then they get a people job, you know, what I'm saying they there's, there's ways to help them translate their skills into valuable, or their strengths into valuable skills.
I always find it fun when you meet with a kid who, I don't know what I want to do. And I'll start just quizzing them, do you like working with people or a team? Are you like working by yourself? Do you like working indoors, you like working outdoors, and you can see them stop and think like, "Ah, I think I would like to work on myself." Like, you know, it just makes them start realizing you do have certain interests that you may not have
thought or wanted to admit. And we can kind of work towards what that would lead, you know, in the employment field.
¶ Deficits focus
One of the other things, though, and again, you want to talk about having a provocative conversation. I think that one aspect of that, I think the reason why they don't necessarily go there is because the school system in general is very deficit focused. And they spend most of their time hearing about all of the things that they're not doing. So all it was so when you kind of twist the conversation around and you're like, Well, what do you like to do and what are you good at?
It's almost like they don't even know where to start. And that is as a teacher, that is something that I have been Thinking about lately? It is, it is, it is something, I suppose if I could, if we could figure out the, you know, figure out the solution for that one that we'd all be making a heck of a lot more money than we are now.
Yeah.
Yeah, that is true.
We could be doing another podcast somewhere else.
¶ Changes after exit
But one of the things, though, that he that you had said earlier that, that got me thinking in specific to after high school, and if if the student has then decided to go on to college, and recognizing, and this is a conversation that Meghan and I have had also the difference between entitlement versus eligibility, but by the time you get into college, you
don't have an IEP. And so therefore, knowing yourself and knowing what your strengths are, and what your limitations are, in that regard, because I had, I have a cousin who went through high school, and they worked really hard with him. And he was doing really, really well. And then, you know, he got to college, and that first semester was really, really hard, and it
didn't go so well. And so they had to kind of take a step back and say, "Okay, Well, how do we come at this differently?" But that it's funny when I think of that, and I think that college is a whole other world a whole other...
Yeah.
...conversation to have.
And I do I start that conversation with my second semester juniors, and then seniors, and we do give them we do sit down with them and explain to them and give them paperwork that tells the difference between entitlement, excuse me entitlement and eligibility, and advocating for yourself and what to expect and how to get involved. That is a very important conversation for seniors.
And it's funny, some of the questions that come out, because as you build that relationship with them, they do see you as that person that they can just ask anything. So I've gotten questions like, When can I take classes at night? Do I have to take them in the morning, like
just understanding? You know, because it's, it's such a uncharted territory, and it's so different, and they've been so used to having the case manager there to check on everything, and the parents there to check on anything, you know, and it's just, now it's just them. And it's, it's scary. And that's
¶ Community Colleges
why, you know, I always tell the students to and I know you did that seem like, it's Community College is a great thing. It's a great place to start with that transition, because you are, you're gonna have your world turned upside down with all the changes, so why not start somewhere that they in our community college offers a great amount of support through their disability support services, and all the resources they have? And why not help yourself with all of that as you're starting this
progress process? But yeah.
if anything, it's just giving them an opportunity to wade in because that was what that was what I did, I started a community college, I got two years out of the way and then, you know, moved on to Towson. But that that community college experience was, was fantastic.
¶ Changes for students in college
But it, they have to know what their rights are as a student when they leave high school and move on, and what their responsibilities are as Well. Yeah. So it does change. I mean, when you have a team that advocates for you and goes to your teachers and these your accommodations, then you get to college, and it's you got to make that contact with your teacher, you have to seek out the help you need to changes the scenario. And some students are better at it than other.
Yeah.
I will tell you though, that I have had conversations with parents who have said that colleges also need to do a better job of kind of like letting the parents know what the college has to offer more. So along the lines of when it comes to working with people with disabilities. And you know, saying this is what we have, and this is what we do. And this is how we can help.
That's another awareness.
Yeah.
And changes in education that have happened tremendously over the last 15 to 20 years. What they offer in college for kids with disabilities, the services, the testing, that has changed significantly.
And that's a question that's come up a lot lately with from parents asking, "Well, what colleges are better equipped or work better with students with disabilities?" And I know our guidance counselors provide some resources or you know, there's lists out there that you can go through and start the research process but honestly, just going in on your tours and seeing for yourself, make an appointment and talking with them.
Yeah. And then also like I would that along those lines, thinking of, like knowing what question to ask, and being able...
True
...and, you know, and again, I think that goes back to the advocacy piece knowing knowing yourself Well enough to say, Well, this is a challenge that I have...
Right.
...how can you guys help?
And again, they have to be open to doing that. So I think it's just so important for the students to by senior year, understand who they are, as a learner understand their disability and those accommodations.
And you know, we have the transition teachers have a list of questions that we can provide. I think Meghan might have wrote the list of questions written at some time ago, we give it to parents, if you're seeking an agency and adult agency, what do you want to hear some questions to sort of steer the conversation? When you go to see that agency? What are you looking for? We, we could be doing that for students, as they go to have that conversation with a college?
It's not a bad idea? I'll get on that one.
You know, what do you what do you want to ask? What do you want to make sure they know about you? What do you want that school to know about you?
Well, and that's kind of like with the Maryland summary of performance that the seniors leave that there is a student perspective. And that is one of the questions, what do you want them to know about yourself. And I always tell students, this is a chance, like, and it's just practice for when you go to the Support Services Office, this is your chance to write down what you want them to know about you.
And I love seeing the responses to because even the quietest students, like they'll put down something like you know, I might take more time. But when I'm motivated, I'm I will give my all you know, and I will do it or unexcited, you know, whatever it may be, but it's just their chance to let them know like they're all in.
Yeah. And that's another good conversation because sometimes you have to help the student figure out what would you want them to know about you how you're really good at this.
But I have gotten a couple that said nothing now. Nothing to share.
¶ Well That's Helpful
All right. And before we let you go this week for our Well, That's Helpful resource. We wanted to share out the T21mom.com. Podcast. Now Mary Kardle, whose daughter, Ainsley, rocks and extra chromosome hosts informational discussions around those experiences. And the discussions
are fantastic! Past conversations cover children who use spelling to communicate, a mother who couldn't find representation and children's books that mirrored her experiences, so she decided to just go out and write her own book series about her son, and interviews with clinicians that discuss a wide variety of relevant topics. We love this podcast, and we think that you will too. So go to any of your podcasting platforms and look up t21mon.com. And give it a listen. It's really, it's really
fantastic! All right, Megan, how are we going to close this one out,
¶ Outro
We really, really encourage that you follow the information from this and our other conversations that we've had in our show notes. Make sure to like, follow and please share out the podcast with anyone that you know who might be getting ready to go through the transition process is in the midst of it even has gone through it and just wants to you know, brush up on information or have anything to
share with us. Check out our YouTube channel, we have videos of all our conversations, including doing some of the legwork for you by curating videos of topics that revolve around transition. We've created playlists that cover guardianship, alternatives to guardianship ABLE accounts, and still more to come. So be sure to subscribe there as Well. And of course, check out our website which is chock full of information around the
transition process. You'll find our contact information there and we love hearing from you all so please go to www.post.secondarytransition.com
We look forward to talking with you guys again.
All right, thanks, everyone.
Bye bye.
Bye.