Selection Testing with Art Lopez

Hey everybody, we're going to get to our show in just a minute with Art Lopez. Before we get to that, I just want to thank a couple of sponsors as usual. So I want to talk about record keeping. Record keeping is obviously important for what we do. And I think a really good option is CATS. So K-A-T-S, CATS, Canine Activity Tracking System. So check out catsplatinum.com. You can move everything around in there and really customize it to what you want.

It's pretty intuitive because Bob's been doing this. Bob Eaton's the owner of the company. He's been doing this business for a long time. So he was the first one to come out of the gate with some record-keeping software we were doing on a computer a long, long time ago, and he just keeps improving it all the time. So check out catsplatinum.com. And also I wanted to thank Kevin Sheldahl. I'm going to have him back here on the show.

I had him on a little while back as a guest. He's going to come back on here real soon, do another show. He's got a bunch of knowledge And he also has his own business And it's K-9 Services So if you check out K-9 Services K-9Services.com.

You'll see Kevin's got lots of different things That he can help you with He does a lot of different training He's out of New Mexico So if you're in that area You can go see him Or you can just give him a call At 505-250-4576 After you look at his webpage, Maybe you could set up a seminar Or a workshop just in your area you. He travels a lot and he has a whole ton of different classes that he does. Really specializes a lot in like tactical integration and SWAT type stuff, but he does detection.

He does a little everything. So thanks, Kevin, from Canine Services for sponsoring this show. And I wanted to mention too, that we still have some availability at the Colorado Canine Conference. So we're getting registrations in, but we still have plenty of room. So if you're going to come, the only thing I would say is maybe get on the website and book your hotel room.

The block for the hotel room will We'll probably sell out, and I would want you to have to stay at a different hotel, you know, somewhere in the area. So right now we have rooms at the hotel, and we have room at the seminar. So coloradok9conference.com. Come check it out. A lot of good instructors. Howard Young is going to be there. Ron Cloward, Billy Hobart, Rob Lucas, and lots of really good instructors. Steve Stoops. So it's going to be a good time. So coloradok9conference.com.

And with that, let's get over to the show and talk to Art Lopez. Music.

This is the Police Canine Training Podcast with Jeff Meyer. Join us for each episode to get real-world advice from canine professionals who have experience on the street. Each episode will focus on up-to-date information that you can use on the street. Spend about 30 minutes with us each week as part of your training day. Our goal at Police K9 Training is to make every K9 team be the best they can be. Music.

Welcome to the Police Canine Training Podcast. I'm your host, Jeff Meyer. Today I have a friend of mine on. I've been bugging him for quite a while to get on the podcast here. I have Art Lopez. He's the director of the Utah Post Canine Program. And Art and I have known each other for, I don't even know how long now, a long time, and been around dogs together, training dogs and doing stuff together many, many times. And now Art's real busy with his job running Utah Post.

We're going to talk a little bit about Art's background, and then kind of what he's doing at Utah Post. And then the meat and potatoes of this show today is that we're going to talk about selection tests. So Art gets to see a lot of dogs in his position, and they have to go through a lot of dogs and from all different areas. So we're going to talk about what some of Art's suggestions on the best way to select a dog. So with that, how are you today, Art?

Doing great, Jeff. Thanks. Thanks for finally coming on. I've been bugging you about this for a while, so I'm glad we finally got this hooked up.

For people who maybe aren't familiar with you can we just start with your background and kind of talk about you've had you've had quite a few different positions before you got the one you have now yeah so what sparked my interest in canine is uh when i graduated high school i was at actually hunting and mad fishing game officer down here and first time i've ever seen a mountain wall i had no idea what the dog was i thought it was

a german shepherd and she showed me how the The dog worked in detection, how she trained it, and started getting fascinated by it, you know. And then once again, I'm hunting again, and I meet the person I was hunting with was an officer for a small department, but he had trained a Rottweiler for apprehension work. And he's like, hey, you want to put the bite sleeve on? I'm like, I'm a 2019 kid.

Why not? Yeah, why would I not? And so here I am taking a bite from a dog at 90 years old, had no idea what's going on, and had a great time. So, hey, do you want to let my dog keep you muzzled? Like, okay. Yeah, why not? So I got hooked. So I got into law enforcement with the provider to become a canine handler. And they did the department in my hometown where I wanted to work. But they didn't have a program. And it took me five years. And during those five years, my chief knew it.

I wrote a proposal, gave it to him. And I had people give me certified police dogs between the ages of three and four for free. And nothing, nothing, nothing. So I kind of gave up hope. And one of the neighbor agencies was retiring his dual-purpose dog and asked him, hey, what are you doing with them? Oh, nothing. He says, well, you want to give them to me and I'm working for a single purpose. Like, yeah, if you want them. But I kind of mentioned it to the lieutenant.

The lieutenant went to the chief and the lieutenant came back, well, the chief's interested in it. Well, to be honest with you, I kind of blew it off after five years of work and no response. And so I ended up getting a cacking coming down. He's like, hey, get that information about the dog. He's really serious about giving it to you. Let me know and we'll get you started equipment. and then find a class to go to. Oh, wow. I'm like, crap. So I called the handler, and he gave me my first dog.

And what was funny is my first dog, Rico, was 10 years old and was an epileptic. Wow. Should have called him Lucky. Yeah. So the first night we use him, he tears it up. I mean, he ends up fined, five to five fines, and the pot's fell on low. So did they send you to a school with him or anything? Yeah, I ended up going through a post-school. It was actually hosted by the highway patrol and what goes into it. So where Rico was so old, you can only do part of the training.

So I've worked on part of the time. Then I worked with all the other dogs. I didn't sit in my car or dad. I just started working. So it was so fascinating because we had all different mouths, duchies, a couple of shepherds, you know, different personalities. So I sat there and watched. Yeah. And so I can truly get trained with them. A couple months with Rico, the same handler that gave me the dog says, hey, my former Wendell Knope, who

I took his job, has this six-month-old puppy. You need to go look at it. And I wore a car. He said, you know, in a year, we'll buy you a new dog from Europe. And I'm like, okay. So I looked at him, and I don't know what I love about him. I ended up agreeing to take him on this little psychotic white male. And I remember that dog. So I was fortunate because he had so many issues. I had so many issues that I've learned so much and overcome through it.

And then I continued to train with Highway Patrol, and they took me to their wing, and I'm teaching them. And they said, hey, why don't you get your instructors through this class, another in-house class with them? And so I continued to work and learn. I started doing a lot of canine trials. I started talking to other officers and watching them train their dogs. And I learned I'm a good thief. All my training methods.

Don't work for everybody else. Well, in turn, these officers actually took me under their wings because I'm a brand new guy and I'm willing to learn. I never said, I'm not going to try that. I'm like, okay, let's see how it goes. And the late John Ritchie, you know, taught me a lot. Some of the solid city officers taught me unified police. And then I started going to seminars, meeting Brad Smith, Ken Pavlik. And those guys took me under their wing and taught me a lot.

Yeah. and so I continued to go I was asked to instruct for post about four years of my career I did not feel comfortable I wanted to be. Had a little bit more expertise to it. Let me jump in real quick, because I think some people maybe aren't familiar, and we talked about POST a few times, so even though we're kind of going out of order, let's just talk about what the Utah Canine POST program, because it's a unique program that very few states have, something like that.

So can you just kind of outline what it does and what your involvement back then would have been? So back then, Utah POST is set up for different classes. Their certification goes to a German police school that Wendell Knope attended. Also, the late Donnie O'Neill also went to a similar one. Our classes, we hold four classes a year, two detector dog classes and two patrol dog classes.

Each class consists of eight weeks. Mars is a little bit unique because we also certify the handlers during the course of the class. And we teach dog psychology, selection process, case law, how to keep training dogs with it. And what I like about Utah Post is it's a government agency running it. It's not a private vendor. It's not an association where there's politics involved. I mean, obviously, government agencies have politics too. But it's the Post.

It's the police officer standards of training for the state of Utah. So they not only do canine, you guys do all the different facets. I think a lot of people don't really understand that if you're a handler in Utah, chances are when you get a new dog, you're going to run through the whole school through Utah Post, not through the local trainer from one of the departments or one of the vendors or something, which is more similar around the country.

Yeah, and like I said, it's free for any handler in the state of Utah. We're actually one of the cheaper programs, if not the cheapest ones, for out-of-state to come to Utah. Yeah, I've been there for many programs. So I just wanted to jump in just so when you were talking about that, you know, they wanted you to teach there and kind of explain, you know, what it was.

And so it's backed by the state of Utah. So, you know, if a handler gets in trouble that's been certified by the state of Utah, they'll send me out. They pay for my expenses to defend the officers, so there's no fee because the agency's out there. And in Utah, they're financially well-stayed, so these officers or the associations, they're not worried about going bankrupt. Yeah, so we'll fast-forward to that in a little bit, but I just wanted to jump

in and kind of get that out there. So at that time, you'd been a handler for several years, and then they were talking to you about coming and starting to instruct at Utah Post. So kind of just explain, how does that work when you're a handler in an agency and you're on your second dog? So yeah, I'm on my second dog, but to receive your instructor certification, you've got to have three years. So I waited for three years, was able to gain my instructor level.

And so being the department level instructor, I started teaching and also helping the highway patrol class at the time. And so got to the time where about five years in, four or five years in, when they asked me to teach, I just didn't feel ready enough and confident enough. Even offered, you know, you're doing so well, you can get your judge. But I waited to the seventh year. You can get your judge in Utah sixth. I waited to the seventh because I wanted, I wanted, you know,

no doubt of my abilities on it. And I received my judges, and then I started teaching at Post. Yeah. And that was this great opportunity. We see so many different dogs and different handlers, and I continued to learn from the, you know, the veteran dog handlers up to the brand-new handlers. I'm a good thief. I steal all their ideas they give me. And then so I kept going. A cool part of that program is you probably did that once or twice a week while you were still working your regular job.

Oh yeah, like my wife said, that was my happy time. I could only come close with a big smile on my face. And she says, yeah, I like you. It's a great experience. Yeah. Yeah. I come home with a new bite mark and she's like, oh, you're fine. We'll do the last step. Which is true. Yeah. Which I continued on. I ended up getting, at the time, my department called me and says, hey, we need a bomb dog. Are you interested in two dogs?

And I did. And I ended up actually having a Dutch Shepherd I was using for a lady that I ended up buying to be a bomb dog. And same thing, this dog come with a bunch of issues with most Dutchies do and was able to learn a bunch. And then my first dual purpose Zorro, he ended up passing away, retiring. And then I got my second dog, I got Bill. And then I worked up with Bill and we ended up retiring me, Zippy and Bill together. Went to private sector for a couple of years. Yeah.

Ended up coming back, working for a local college. I ended up getting a phone call from one of the officers I had trained with from Highway Patrol, now a lieutenant. And he heard Wendell was getting ready to retire. And he goes, are you interested in Wendell's job? I didn't expect that, to be honest with you. And I'm like, well, yeah. He goes, okay, you're in our choice. I'm going to start. And Wendell was the director of the Utah Post program at that time.

Yeah, he was for 30 years, 30 plus years. And so I ended up putting in for the job. I had some, several departments, including some from out of state contact me. He says, Hey, are you putting in for it? I'm like, yeah, this is good. We're we, uh, we want you for that job. I, you need a letter of reference and end up getting the job a little over two years ago. And that's where I'm at now. And I jumped in with both feet into it. And it's, it's a fun job. It's the best job I've ever had. Yeah.

So your, your duties now are, are you oversee the whole Canine program? So there's, I know there's a lot of administrative stuff because, you know, we keep talking about Utah Post program, but how many states now have adopted Utah Post standards and are, you know, certifying through your program? Well, we have about 14 to 15 states that run our certification.

Yeah. We have 15 judges from Utah State and I lost track of them and I'm going to keep them, but in Washington, Idaho, Colorado, I'm getting ready to go back to Kansas and retrain their new one. We have some in the special forces, secret services come to Utah and certify they have a teaching job. And keeping up with the administration of it and certifications. A lot of out-of-state have trained Utah post judges who do certification. And we also do those on just Utah certifications with it.

Yeah. And we've had dogs, we've had instructors come from Dubai, South Korea, Iraq, all across the United States to come and train to Utah to receive their certifications. Yeah. And if somebody's listening to this and they want to check it out, what's the best thing to do? Go to the webpage? Yeah, there's a webpage. My best suggestion is, because it changes all the time, I would just Google Utah post canine and it'll come up with our webpage on it. Yeah.

And again, just to kind of bring it full circle, it's, you know, I've been heavily involved in it my whole canine career. Our department has followed it and I've, you know, achieved the rank of the teaching judge there too, which is as high as you can go. So obviously I'm a big fan of it, but it's a real comprehensive program. And again, there's no dues. You don't pay money to do a certification. You don't pay dues to be part of it. And it's ran by a government agency.

So I think there's a lot of positives. So hopefully people listening to it will, you know, maybe check it out and then they're going to be able to hear from the director of the program themselves today. So, you know, kind of get to know you better and they'll be able to reach out, you know, through me and I can send, you know, questions your way and stuff. So I think it's a, obviously, like I said, it's a good option for a lot of people, even if you have to travel to Utah to do it.

Well, and the benefits too, if we have dorms available for out-of-state people, they stay at the dorms for free. Yeah. And so when I have a place to keep your dog during the time and all day, there's heat and any cooling for the dog. So you get pretty well taken care of here. And the dorms there, I mean, people don't realize they're not bad at all. They're not bad at all. And they're part of the local college there. So there's some perks all around that place.

So right now we get average is two to five out-of-state handlers each course. Yeah. So we kind of covered all that. And then we've talked a lot about a lot of different things that you and I have over beers many, many, many times. But we decided today we're going to kind of talk about selection test. And everybody that trains dogs and has some process for, you know, if they've had to buy dogs, they've stolen some ideas from people that have taught them things. They see things on their own.

So I'd say every trainer that's been around for a long time that selects dogs has some, some things they look for on their own. Some of them are, I think maybe more scientific base when we talk about canine psychology. And then I think all of us have a few things that, you know, maybe are not scientific, but they seem to hold true for me.

You know, like I, I'll give you one example for me is it seems like when, when I'm chest and detector dog, when I throw the ball, you know, I'm looking for, you know, obviously hunting all that, but it's something about the dogs that, and I don't care what breed it is, the dogs that almost pounce on the toy and you can't pick it up fast enough, almost drive their head into to pick it up as opposed to the ones that'll run up fast to the toy and then stop and bend over and pick it up.

It just seems like I've had better luck with the ones that literally, you know, pounce on the toy. So there's an example of, you know, it's not science related. It's just something when I see it, I like it. You know, would I buy or not buy a dog because of that? Probably not, but it's definitely something I pay attention to. So everybody that has a selection test has their own little idiosyncrasies like that.

The cool thing about talking to you about selection tests is that you see so many dogs that come through your program that are dogs that you didn't get to select. You had no input on where the dog came from, how they bought them, where they got them. And also you didn't, the same with the handler. A lot of times maybe you don't even know the handler. You don't know the skills of the handler. You don't know anything about the

dog. And yet you're tasked with trying to oversee a program that's going to put a team together. So from a higher level, you get to see a lot of dogs and probably see a lot of things where, you know, that, that I'm sure we sit back and think I would have bought that dog or I wouldn't have bought that dog based on these things.

So is that kind of a fair assessment? It is. So Utah Post, our training method is unique because we're able to train a dog with a detector dog in high prey drive. But also we don't relay on the tug as much. We can train dogs with hybrid tree drive and almost no prey drive on it. Yeah. We've had a couple of dogs for state agency come through that all three of them were, they didn't pass a hunting dog test, but they made great detector dogs. We're like, my dog won't tug. Will he chase the ball?

Oh, yeah. Oh, throw the ball. That's his reward. Yeah, it's a Labrador retriever. I'm like, and they work at him, and all three of these dogs have taken several tons of illegal drugs off the highways just from throwing the ball. Yeah, yeah. And so part of, like I said, it comes a little frustrating on it because, especially now, and you'll probably see it out there, the dogs are coming really,

really young. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so in the selection process, they expect these dogs to act like a two-year-old dog when they're 10 months to a year old. I don't like to go with dogs younger than a year coming through the course. Yeah. Yeah. They're just not developed enough. Yeah. And then they want the dogs to perform highlights. And these veteran dogs, like you got to understand these dogs are barely teenagers. Yeah.

It's a lot of patient. Yeah. They're distractible and everything else at that point. Mm-hmm. And just like you, some of the things I look for in a dog for a selection test, similar to yours, I like the whole toy in my hand. And if the dog's focused on her or even jumping up to bite it from my hand, that's something I really like. Once again, it doesn't say it'll pass the test or not. Yeah, yeah.

But you see those things. So if you went to a vendor right now, and we'll start with a single-purpose detection, you go to a vendor right now. Now, just walk me through your selection test for that, for a single-purpose detector dog. And one question I have there is, does it make a difference if that dog is going to be guns, bombs, money, drugs, or do the same test for all the different dogs?

I do the same test for all of them. But if I am looking for a bomb dog, I look for one with a little bit more stamina in my selection process. And basically, how long are you going to play fetch with me? And I've had some dogs play fetch with me for a long time. Yeah, I have one that does that. You've seen him. Oh, yeah. He doesn't stop. He's a nice dog. You know, like my bond dog, he's a duchy, which you figure duchies wear out. Yeah. This dog, you know, loves retrievers.

Yeah. I don't know how I left off on it. Yeah. So when I go select a single purpose, I'm not reached specific unless the department wants me to be. Yeah.

Floppy pointeers, I don't care. I take a tennis ball, I take a jute roll, a wooden dowel, a Kong, even a ball and a rope. Because I like to see different aspects of what they will retrieve on. Yeah. I understand the pointers, the labs, the hunt dogs, they tend to like the tennis balls on them. We do have a pointer area that the handler's tough and this dog bites his handler all the time. And he is a pointer. Yeah. He's got blood on his head. It's kind of cool.

So I first start out just throwing the ball and see if they'll hunt and retrieve on it. See their focus on it. And then I like to find a holograph field and then I'll take the dog, check the ball, spin the dog a couple of times and let them go and see how they hunt. And actually kind of time it on and see how long they're committed with it. It takes the dog a bit to find the ball before he goes to nose. I'm okay with that.

I'll do that a couple of times. So you're okay as long as the dog's hunting? Yes. I just want a dog that hunts and commits to it. If the dog looks, walks away, I'm not interested in it, I'll move on. What about the dog? He's out there in the field. He's running all around and it looks like he's hunting, but you know he's full speed.

Feed mouth open or closed doesn't really matter but he's just so inefficient you know there's been several times based on where the wind is and the toys laying in the grass that he should have showed some reaction to it or even found it and they're just they're just one of those high activity dogs running back and forth what do you think of those dogs well like i said it depends on the age of the dogs and the breed too yeah mouths don't want to grow their nose as quick as

the labs and stuff i'll see if i can work them into it into the wind area and see if they'll switch to it in time. If they're naturally go to, I look for the natural head throw and go into it. But if they're running around and head up, not looking, the eyes, then I'll kind of move on with it and watch that type. But they're younger, especially younger males, I can develop that into as long as they'll, you know, within a reasonable timeframe, switch to the nose. Yeah.

But I mentioned that because I've made that mistake. I think sometimes people mistake, you know, high activity for high hunt, and they're different. The high activity, their mouth is open, they're bouncing around, they're having a good old time, they're happy as can be. But hunt, they start switching to their nose, you know, looking for it and really focusing into it.

So you don't care really at that point, though, just to reiterate, that if it takes them a while, if they're out there hunting, and maybe they just happen to be, like I kind of like it When the dog's on the wrong side of the toy and it takes them longer because I think you and I are on the same page. As long as that dog's out there hunting, he's not running around peeing on things and chewing on grass and stuff. And he kind of looks like the world has stopped until he finds that toy.

That's kind of what you're looking for, right? Yeah, that's what I like. I just want a dog out there hunting the whole time trying to find it nonstop. Yeah. I actually time them and I'll take notes with the dogs and like, okay, this dog actually hunted for, truly hunted for six minutes.

Minutes this one found it quicker in three you know just yeah kind of compared to them yeah and is there a time that you i mean when was there a number of minutes that you think is truly exceptional and maybe one that that isn't enough i've had a dogs up to six seven minutes a green dog in the full hunt mode before he found him but i've seen some other dogs you know finding with them you know 20 30 seconds and then also not yeah i'm

sure there's probably also some dogs that once you throw it they go out and they they look for 30 seconds and then they come back look at you and like you threw it you go get it exactly and then i have some dogs that critter one of the biggest cautions i have with people by gsps and i and i like the german short hair is like i'd like to work one, but you allow them to critter or kill an animal, especially if you want to work outside like a bomb dog street.

All they're going to do is look for the animal killer or look for something to kill, like cautious bomb dog handlers with them. Dope dog world with them is not as bad, but bomb dog handlers, be very, very cautious with that. Yeah, they'll get very visual, it seems like. They'll be really visual.

So once that test is done, I like a commitment test. If I have a milk crate or if I don't have one available, I'll drop the toy behind the chain link fence or in the milk crate to see how long the dog keeps trying to get to that toy and close back and forth. I'll let that dog not leave it and finally, I better give him a toy on this side of the fence to satisfy his dream. I don't want to do it. Yeah.

And so they're my basic tests. And then I move inside where it'll look like I'm hiding a tennis ball and let them hunt for it that way or a different toy and see how they hunt. And then next is the environmental stuff.

And a lot of people don't understand some of the imports from Europe, the IPO dogs, the shits of dogs and the hunt dogs, they've never seen it inside of a building before. Yeah. And it's like, well, slick floors, they fail. Well, let's see what happens when I step back and do baby steps. I roll a ball out and then chase it that way. And if I can build that up on them, I'll still pass them because they have the confidence to do it. Yeah, yeah.

Well, some of the agencies I've talked with and some of the stuff I've seen through my career, like we had a German Shepherd from Highway Patrol, a nice dog. The fact that he went through my detector dog class with me and certified, goes out on the road. Around the freeway, owner gets out to deploy them around the vehicle for a sniff. The dog takes off running, does not like the semi-trucks, the cars. Yeah. And so now the highway patrol tests your dogs around the freeway to make

sure that they don't shut down like the shepherd. Yeah, yeah. So finally, actually, the environmental stop. And then if they need a social dog or a non-aggressive dog, they run past the people or other dogs with it. Yeah. And in general, when you do a selection test, you go to a vendor and maybe he's got five or six dogs. How long does it take you to test, say, five or six dogs for a single purpose dog? I'm usually there, we start at eight, we hit lunch, we end about two.

Yeah. About four to six hours I take my time with them. Yeah. Especially if I'm looking for a bomb dog, I really want to see how long the stamina is with these dogs for work.

So start doing longer searches and... Mm-hmm, longer searches for them and make sure they're active and... Yeah. And towards the end, if they pass all the environmental stuff, I'll just start playing fetch with them and see how long...

And I think one of the things that I like about the way you're describing it, and I know it's based on your experience as your job now, where you see some dogs that I'm sure that are in your classes that it's like, you know, I wouldn't have picked that dog. However, we're going to make that dog a whatever type of dog, you know, as long as we might have to do a little extra work.

I know that there's a lot of people who, you know, maybe are real quick if they see a dog, it's like, well, I just get rid of that dog.

Dog in the real world when you're going to buy a dog sometimes you know the perfect dog is usually not there so you got to have to look at some good some bad and kind of figure out what what's genetic and what can i can i not fix and what can i fix and i assume you're doing that every step when you're looking at all the dogs yeah i look at how they walk how they how they run how they breed i mean the dog

may be an ugly dog but he has the drives and genetics sociability that i'm but that I'm wanting for it. A lot of guys are like, well, that's an ugly looking dog why you got this in. And I had one agency picked up a trained golden retriever that looked like Doug from the movie Up. And the dog barely passed certification. I explained to the handler, he does not have the drive to sustain his career. The answer he gave me is he's going to go switch and train with another smaller agency.

I'm like, that's not going to fix the issue. no yeah um well and then i get an email back saying you're right the dog give him washing it we help me find another dog yeah so rook has been important to me yeah i agree.

I agree what's gonna work i agree for environmental stuff how crazy do you get with environmental things besides slick floors do you do white floors white floors is important we actually had a. Now that we've gone for a department that went through schooling, detectors all certified up, one of the first deployments stepped on a white tile floor, locked up like a statue. Weirdest thing I've ever seen in my life. So he'd been on slick floors, he just had never been on a white slick floor.

Well, on white carpet, he would lock up like a statue. He wouldn't move. Anything that was white, this dog would lock up.

Wow. And we have a lot of schools and businesses with white floors, and just didn't work and the dog ended up going to a cherish department down the rural areas worked great for them yeah yeah so that's one thing is different environments i take them to but i remind these guys a lot of these dogs are so young they do not have life experience on it so the dog is hesitant going on the slick floor if he eventually takes to chase a ball that you roll on it, we can work on that through babysitting.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, and I don't do a whole lot of, you know, going up a staircase and stuff like that. As long as I can walk up a normal one, I'm good with it. You know, going back and forth in cars. Yeah. With it. We make sure they can do the basic stuff for the single purpose. And when you go through that test and you, you know, say for some reason today you need to go and you're going to buy 10 dogs and they all pass that test, what's your What's your success rate, 9, 10, 8?

We're about 90% fast on the list through the selecting test. What's hard too is some of the vendors you go to, the dogs haven't been working for a while. You get just a couple hours training with them, well, all dogs, true personality does not come out for about two weeks. Well, and even testing a moody dog, I've gone out and dog done passed all my tests. They come back and they start working. Well, they're done working.

They're not going to work anymore. And we didn't see it in the testing process. Yeah. And the reason I ask that question is that, you know, even with the number of dogs that you see, and you've done this for a long time, that there's times where, you know, we've all selection tested a dog and brought it back to an agency. And it's just not the right dog for whatever reason. And people need to not be, it's not an ego thing.

And just cut your losses and, you know, we pay top dollar for the dog, so send the dog back and get it one that's going to work. And I can tell people we pay so much money for these dogs, get your money's worth out of it. Exactly. Use your warranty on it. Yeah. You know, don't work something that you're not happy with.

Yeah, I know you see it too where we see agencies that just refuse to exchange a dog, and, you know, the dog needs to be exchanged for any myriad of reasons, But I just see so many agencies dig in their heels and, you know, either the trainer is being stubborn and thinks that it's a knock on them since they've selected the dog or whatever. And it happens to everybody. Yeah, like you swallow your pride. I've even seen some vendors get really upset

because the dog isn't working. They're like, no, there's nothing wrong with this dog. No, you look for a good vendor. It's like, this dog isn't working out and you return it. Okay, go find your next dog. Exactly. That's what the answer should be. Myself, I have returned a dog before, but you know, every time I take the toy from him, he'd turn on me and eat and want to eat me, and I'm not gonna deal with this.

Yeah. How to return him. I'd be like, well, you're supposed to be the expert at selecting dogs, huh? I am, that's why I'm not selecting this dog. I am, that's why I'm not gonna keep him.

So what about for a patrol dog? So patrol dogs, I actually learned, I stole this method from the military, actually, special forces. So when they do the selection test, they always do the patrol first because they have to transition quickly over to detection. And so they always start with the patrol aspect of it first. And that's interesting because most people would go out and do all the detection, do the hunting side of it first.

Well, so I like the transition part of it. But once again, I did have a failure to where my dog found a bad guy and wouldn't transition to sniff the car. Yeah. And so once again, I had to learn and retrain my stuff. And thank goodness, once again, the special forces I work with were willing to work with me and help me out and give me suggestions. Yeah. First, I do my homework and figure out where these dogs go through.

I mean, the Adler horse is the main agency, my main vendor my agency went through. And so I studied where they got the dogs from, the Kennedy P, the IPO, the Schutzen on it. Yeah. And we studied each one. Like Schutzen, the majority of the time, they're going to go for the left arm because that's what they use with the barrel slew. Yeah.

What I like to do is the very first task, you're going to take the dog out, and I put a person in the suit, and I want to see if the dog's going to bite the suit. Yeah. First thing is. And so they bite the suit, and I watch the bite on it. How full the bite is. Is it shallow? Is he a good mouth to bite? Is he driving? Is he readjusting? Is he staying on?

And what if the dog shows some hesitation just because he's never seen a suit before? Then I'll switch to a sleeve later on. Yeah. If I make the dog's commitment to it. Because I can always fix that. And I can tell people when they do the suit, when they come to my class, rebuild the dog's up first. Because these dogs are so young coming into the program. Yeah, yeah. So we can fix some of it. Yeah. And like I said, I look and see how young the dog is too with it.

So once that's done, then we'll take the dog off, and I send the decoy on a run. And I watch for the pursuit and the engagement and the bite and the bite grip with that. And then I think I look at, too, this is coming from working a sharp dog. Is the dog sharp? And I work a sharp dog because my dogs are all bit me every time when I lift them up on a bite.

Yeah. I got good at holding on to them. Yeah. Yeah, so let's, just because everybody's terminology is a little different, define what you call a sharp dog. Sharp dog is, you go to lift the dog off, he comes back and bites you quick. Basically, he's telling you, Dad, I got this, leave me alone. And he goes back to the decoy, and he's like, oh, crap, I'm sorry, Dad. It's just a little frustrating. Yeah, they just react quickly with that aggression.

Yeah, it's diverse, and like, oh, crap, I'm sorry, Dad. Yeah. You know, it's just like, leave me alone, I got it. Yeah. And you'll usually see that in that selection test when you go to lift these dogs off that don't know you. Yeah. And so I can look for that, but we can work it. Like I tell people, this isn't aggression towards you. He's just like, leave me alone, I'm doing my job. Yeah. Yeah. And then the next test, I bring the dog back, I have a decoy run out of sight.

Once again, I spin the dog a couple of times and I watch him hunt.

And once again i don't want to i look for dogs not a dog that's active i want a dog that's hunting, yeah and you know close mouth and how long he goes in there and then his commitment into the the bite of the decoy on it so this at this point the deco is gonna be like in some trees or some somewhere out of sight yeah yeah yeah on the horse it's nice they have the benches you can run into that there's trees around, they can't see them.

So it works out really good there. Yeah, yeah. And then once that's done, they have cars out there, I want to see if the dog will go into the car. Kicking is not that important to me, but I want to see where the dog's confidence is at that time. So it's more environmental than… More environmental. Yeah, yeah. And then once they're past that test, I'll give the dog a break for a bit, and then I'll come in and I'll start putting pressure on them.

And how I do it is I usually, one of my decoys or me, are really good about locating the dog into a chain fence. And this is one thing I will tell the listeners. When you go to a vendor and you're testing dogs, especially dual-purpose or single-purpose bite dogs, don't break their dogs. They start putting pressure into a chain fence. I want to see if the dog will... Stay on the bike. Well, he starts checking out. I kicked him back into prey drive for his, he's successful.

Yeah. Then he's watching this. He's like, put the bag up and get past my test. That's okay. And the vendor come up to me. Thank you for not breaking my dog. Yeah. And now it's wouldn't. Yeah. Try this dog. Yeah. So we got a little bit nicer dog. That's the one we ended up getting. Yeah. So the pressure test on it and then holds on, stop that bait. And then we do a courage test. Have the decoy run a short distance and the dog. Decoy turns you around.

Once again, have a good decoy for you're not jamming the dog's necks. Yeah. Dog will lunge. I hit him. A couple of good stick hits to the side with a pad and stick on the dog to see if he'll stay on it. That's just to show you that the dog will, you know, when they feel a little bit of stinging pain, that they're going to stay with the fight, not check out. And this is one of the things that people like mouths, they don't care.

Yeah. And they know they're going to launch at you, but the shepherds will slow down because they're smart. They're not, they don't want to jam themselves. A lot of people are like, well, the shepherd's not committing. Yes, he is. He's just smart enough to slow down a little bit to make sure he bites and not jamming. Yeah. Yeah. And know he breeds with it. Yeah. And so a lot of people don't understand, like out in the handle of the horse, they'll get these dogs right from the IPO trials.

And if the decoy stands still, the dog will release and go into a guard. Yep. Which is down in front of them. You're going to fail this. No, you're not. This dog is passing your test. He's not releasing because he's done with the bite. He's just had this training for the last year. Exactly. And that's why I tell them, make sure you study where your dogs are coming from.

Yeah. The prior training they have. And even if a dog is not titled, all those dogs have been started in something, some type of training. Well, man, once that's done, we give the dogs a break and then we go into the building.

You start with a lighted room and then we go in the dark room to see if they'll go into it but once again we're seeing a lot of dogs that have no experience going inside or going in the dark room and so if you step back and do baby step and we'll start going in they'll pass the test and if we have time usually by that time it's around two o'clock three o'clock in the afternoon, that's when they're putting the dogs up but if you have time i'd like they'd

let us take the dogs off site which is important on selecting the dog yeah yeah take them off site we'll see how they react offside. Yeah. And I want to go back up. So you're, you know, like you're in a place where you're, you're going to go down into maybe a hallway and then into a dark room. This dog has never seen any of that. He goes down there, hesitates, doesn't want to come in the dark room, starts walking back. At that point, you're going to do baby steps.

So just kind of explain that. Because I think a lot of people would say, well, the dog's crap. I'm going to fail him. And it might just be something the dog's never seen. Yeah. So, for example, with my second dual-purpose bill, he's killing VP, never seen it. So, he wouldn't go into a dark room. All right, we're going to turn the light on. We're going to have my decoy right at the entrance. So, we send him in. Dog attaches and bites my decoy.

My decoy brings him in, fights with the dog, take him off strong, step back up. The decoy goes in a little bit deeper, send him in again. Good fight with the decoy. Remove him. again he goes back in deeper into the room i send him again our dog logan touch could fight i bring him out then we turn off the light and start back at the beginning yeah and by the time we just keep doing these exact steps for the time the final selection test with him i hear art get your dog.

He's almost biting my feet and that's when i realized my dog was a leg biter yeah yeah and so i was good with that so just very small steps to make sure they'll do it and and what we're testing then is, is not just their courage to go in a dark room. Now we're testing their trainability and their confidence and their courage.

So, you know, I think a lot of people, that's one of the problems with, if you haven't done it very much, you might know a really good dog because you can walk through and see, you know, the dog blazes through everything that you were told or you've heard on these kinds of shows. And then you pick all those, you know, but you don't see that very often.

So, you know, people don't understand that when you're testing the dog it's not just you know you're testing you're not just testing the things that are written on the sheet you're testing the whole psychology of the dogs you know his trainability and if if you have the dog that didn't want to go in the dark room a minute ago now he's in the dark room that's a pass and it's it's more than just a pass because i know that dog i can i can work with this dog and i can

show him different pictures and train train through because there's every dog is going to have issues you know you just might not see it that first day day. But it's basically a psychological profile of the dog is what you're doing. Yeah. And so it works out really well.

And so we've been real successful with the dogs. Once again, the only time we really have issues with it is when we get the dogs back and two weeks later, they, you know, turn on the handler or they're moody, which means they come in superstar. And then you bring it back out and say, I did it. I don't want to do it again. I'm not going to do it. No matter what you do, dogs just won't work.

And how often do you see a moody dog like that i probably see one once a year so they're fairly rare they are really rare luckily because it's a nightmare thank goodness yeah the owners get frustrated my instructors get frustrated it's like there's nothing you can do about it it is what it is we can't change the dog mental status on it they just yeah if they're not gonna do it they're not gonna do it yeah it's a it's a real frustrating problem when you i've only had it

a few times and it's a nightmare.

And so banks pretty much it. And then I go back to the detector part of it. Some other agencies, they do more stuff. You will go in the car. I watched one agency from California. They put the ringer, she, this long carried little shepherd. And I was pretty impressed that dog was pretty tough. In fact, he ended up coming up underneath the suit and might the decoy on the belly. And I think the decoy deserved it because I mean, he threw a lot of pressure on the stock.

Dog but yeah once again i i'm no i'm no longer breed pacific i'm i'm a big malinois fan i love my mouths but the shepherd breeding lately has really improved i'm seeing some really really good shepherds come out yeah yeah a lot of half breeds a lot of shepherd now but he moves and you mentioned it before don't get hooked in what this dog looks like take a take an ugly dog If you need to, don't, don't, I don't care what the dog looks like.

You know, as long as he's got all the body parts he's supposed to have, I really don't care what color he is. Or what about when you're talking patrol dog, is there ones that are too small or too big in your opinion? Here's the issue. I've seen a hundred, 520 pound Malvin and shepherds. They're just as agile as a 50 pound now. Yeah. I want to go below 50 pounds. I've seen some really good 45-pound dogs out there. Yeah. And we had one for Highway Patrol.

Once again, this dog looked like a pit bull. He has a mouth, a blue mouth, in fact. And this dog was 50 pounds, and I've seen him break ribs and knock people out before as hard as he gets. Yeah, yeah. So it's the fight and the battle is what I look for. Yeah, yeah. And then also, I don't care about sex. And what people don't understand is when we get a female dog here in the United States, they're usually really, really good dogs. They're just something around with the reproductive system.

Yeah. And so they sell them to us because they can't breed and make money off of it, but they're really good dogs. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I know a lot of people, you know, only work male dogs for patrol or something and you miss out on some dogs. Same with the small dogs. I can tell you I was guilty of that. There was a small dog that I could have bought for our agency.

The vendor brought a bunch of dogs into town. We had first pick and this dog was about 45 pounds and I just turned him down just because he's too small. And the agency next door to us that we trained with a lot, they grabbed the dog and that dog was fantastic.

Fantastic and bit lots of people didn't didn't uh you know blow people up but didn't have any issues because he had such a nice solid bite and his hunt was was off the the charts you know so i learned a lesson there you know don't don't just you're too small i do think sometimes you know the the 110 pound dogs you know for some of the handlers it's just too much you know the physically trying to some some smaller handlers

it might be too much dog but but i agree What's funny about that is that we had a, Utah used to host a Swat dog school every year.

We had a female handler from Michigan who was maybe a hundred pounds and her dog was bigger than her. Wow. She had a bad dog. She kind of lived her up in the attic. We had to, thank goodness it was a very social dog, but yeah. Great control with a shepherd. Yeah. And so like, you know, you can, you know, it is what it is, but I look at a dog. If it passes my test. I don't care what size or what it looks like. He needs to pass my test with him. Yeah. Get the dog. Yeah.

I guess I want to kind of wrap it up by talking a little bit about, you know, what about agencies? You know, maybe you're a brand new trainer and now you're tasked with going to select a dog. There's resources out there for everybody to, you know, grab somebody who has done this a few times and take them with you. It's, there's just so many, you know, we could have these conversations and do PowerPoints and do classes and everything.

There's so many intangible things that experienced trainers can look at and find a dog that they like, you know, for all the, you know, we give some examples of that, that you really need to, to, you know, reach out and get some experience and then they'll, they'll start teaching you why they like this dog, why they don't like that dog. And over time, if you get to do it enough, you'll get your own system of what you like and everything. thing, but just don't go in blindly.

And I'm not a real big fan of going in and this is not a bash on the vendors. I just don't think the vendors should pick your dog because there's some vendors who are going to try really hard to pick what they think is the best dog. Some other vendors are going to slough a dog off on you because you don't know what you're doing.

I just think that, you know, it should be somebody who knows what they're doing that doesn't have a monetary investment in selling a particular dog out of that kennel well one big thing also with me do not let the vendor run the dog oh yeah yeah and and i have another one of the things i don't like is when they say well send me videos of the dog well this one specific vendor is a friend of mine he's like i get that out i saw the time i'm like i can make

a dog look like a superstar in the video i don't want that yeah and he he trusts the his selection for his dogs like this dog probably won't be in the kennel when you come to spec it. Yeah. So videos, I'm kind of against, I've seen a lot of that. And then the vendors who tried to run, you know, I, I have to handle the dog. Then I'm not gonna buy it from you. Yep, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, if you're going to tell people, watch for trick trainers.

They can make a dog look great, and then you take them home, and it's like, no, I don't like it. Same with the vendor that will only decoy himself or one of his trainers for the dogs, because you can make any dog look good or bad if you're a good decoy. Yeah, that's a much better. Here in Utah, we've had some issues with the vendor we had here saying, no, I'm the only one who can do it, and they get these dogs, and some may be too much for that new handlers, and we wash.

Yeah. And so it's better for the department to do their own selection post on it. Yeah. Well, I think those are, it's kind of a quick overview, but I think they're all good suggestions. And, you know, hopefully people, you know, just kind of understand, you know, that when you're looking, there's a lot of intangibles to look for.

And it's not the most impossible thing. You know, these dogs, when they're at the vendor, the vendor who's selected, you know, like if you're talking about out of the horse, they've selected thousands and thousands of dogs and they bought the dog for a reason and they brought them over so you know usually you're starting with good stock if you start with a good vendor and then there's plenty of really good vendors out there you know so kind of research your vendor get to know

your vendor and have them show you you know maybe some of the dogs you know a lot of these vendors have agencies are doing training nights or something go to one of the training nights and have the vendor show you some of the dogs that are out working the street that that that vendor likes, and then start building a relationship and, you know, see if you're on the same page with the vendor. You know, if you can do that before you even buy a dog, it's going to just help you a long ways.

Well, I'm going to throw a pitch out to add the horse when I was in canine. Mike Weaver told me he picked up a dog that was returned from the military. And he says, this is what's wrong with the dog. Well, we ended up bumping into the handler that ran the dog. And he told me exactly what, why they returned it to the abacus that Mike said. That's rare in a vendor. I'm not sure how much trust for Mike Weaver on because of the reputation.

There's a lot of vendors out there. There's some I don't trust at all. There's some I trust because they've been honest with me. But do your research and ask for people. Yeah, and this isn't a commercial for Adler Horse. They're not a sponsor of the show, but it's one that you use. And the reason that they've been around for a long time is because they treat people that way. And again, there's vendors coast to coast that have good and bad reputations.

And that's one more thing that if you're tasked with buying a dog, taking an experienced person who can selection test the dog will also, you know, probably know the reputation of different vendors. You know, there's one vendor that we got a really nice dog from, but then another agency very close to me, they needed to legitimately exchange the dog. And that vendor, a huge vendor, gave them such a fit about it that I'll never, ever go back there.

You know, so use everybody's experience to your advantage, you know, and there's some, some, you know, some people have a well-deserved reputation, good or bad, so. Well, I agree with you. Now, there's vendors out here that we bought dogs from, I've seen some good dogs, and then some stuff has happened, I'll never recommend them, I'll never buy a dog from them because of the actions they've taken.

Yep, yep. And so it's like, I use the people, you know, I've been here at the career for 20 plus years and the people that have been honest with me and other people say, yeah, they're honest, but do your research on it. There's a lot of vendors out there.

Yeah. You know, people ask me, I give them a handful of vendors. Yeah. And there's good ones all over the country, you know, so there's probably one close to you. It's just a matter of talking to people in the area. I'm going to go back real quick. If you have a chance, take somebody that's experienced with you to go select the dogs. You know, people like me and you, we'll go help select a dog for free. They just ask you to basically feed us and shelter us and we'll take care of the rest.

Yeah, there's lots of help out there for, you know, selecting a dog. So, you know, reach out to somebody in your area, reach out to us or something. But there's a lot of people who are going to help you because, you know, for us, for me, it's fun to do. I like looking at dogs. I'm sure it's the same for you. And the benefit is you go talk to these vendors because they've been along for a long time.

And every vendor I've been to, I pick their brain and say, hey, tell me about this, tell me about this. They like to talk dogs. It's the greatest thing in the world. Yeah. And they know dogs. They see a lot more dogs than we do. So, well, it's all good information.

I'm glad that we finally were able to put this show together. You want to wrap up with anything else? They can also get a hold of me if you have any questions about the Utah Post program. Is it okay to give my email address? Yeah, I'll put that in the show notes. So if you guys want more information about Utah Post, it's an excellent program for starting.

Or if you're an experienced handler and you want to get different credentials that show that you're a legitimate instructor or judge or whatever, it's a very good program. So I'll put your information in the show notes and people can reach out to you directly. So again, Art, I appreciate it and I appreciate all you're doing. I know you're busy as hell running this program, so I appreciate you coming on the program tonight and keep up the good work there in Utah.

Well, thanks for having me here. I had a great time. All right, that's going to do it. I appreciate Art coming on. I always like talking to Art. He's been around a long time and has a lot of different areas of expertise and he's real busy with his current assignment. So I like having him on here. I'll get him back on here based on some reader questions.

In the very near future, I'm going to do a couple of shows where I'm going to answer some of the listener questions that I've been getting and they're pretty common questions. So I'm going to go over a couple of those. That show's going to be coming out very soon. And I want to wrap up thanking my other sponsor for the show, and that's Ray Allen Canine. Everybody knows who Ray Allen is. They are equipment for Canine. Everybody knows what they do.

I think everybody also understands that their quality of their products is outstanding. So when you buy something from Ray Allen, it's going to last. And if for some reason there was a problem with it, Ray Allen will stand behind it. So one of the things with their bite suits, if you buy a Ray Allen bite suit today, you're going to have that suit in your inventory 10, 12 years from now because they just don't seem to wear out. They last a long time. They're well-made.

And they have different levels of protection. So you can get the gigantic poofy suits or you can get the smaller ones that a lot of us kind of prefer. But it's good options for maybe newer decoys and lots of different options there. So go to their webpage and just check out all the different types of bite suits and all the options that they have. They're priced competitively and they will last forever. ever. So again, thanks Ray Allen canine for sponsoring the show. Music.