MUSIC All right, well, welcome back, everybody. Welcome to the first Poggle podcast of 2023. We hope everybody's had a great holiday season. Happy New Year. We're certainly ready to get going. We have Siobhan Julian here today. Siobhan, I think we're going to... Hello. Yes, we're going to talk about questions. Is that what we have? Yes, FAQs. FAQs. FAQs, yeah. Whether you're a brand new Poggle practitioner or you've been practicing for
10 years, I know by the time I retired, I still had questions about Poggle. I think everybody has questions as they begin and as they go along. So we've got some folks here tonight that are going to provide some guidance and some answers to some of those questions, the most frequently asked questions. And Siobhan, I think I will turn it over to you and let you introduce everybody. Thank you so much, Wayne. So it is my pleasure to introduce to you tonight, Suzanne Rooter
and Tracy Murray. Suzanne is the professor and associate chair of chemistry at Virginia Commonwealth University in Richmond, Virginia. VCU is a large urban R1 institution with a very diverse student population. But more than that, Suzanne is an absolute stalwart in the Poggle community. She has been using Poggle for about 18 years in organic chemistry in classes ranging from 150 to 250 students. So Suzanne's got some stories to tell. Suzanne
has served on the Poggle Steering Committee twice. She developed and has facilitated the facilitator training workshop, which by the way, I was a participant in back in 2018 learning from Suzanne's vast background knowledge. And she's facilitated lots of other Poggle workshops. She also has NSF funding for the Ellipse project, shout out for the Ellipse project right there, which explores how to elicit and assess process skills in the classroom.
And then we also have with us tonight, Tracy Murray. Tracy is the professor and chair of chemistry and biochemistry at Capital University in Columbus, Ohio. Capital is a smallish private university that's four miles from downtown Columbus that has students from inner city, inner city, suburban and rural school districts. And Tracy has been using Poggle in lots of different classes. She's been using it in biochemistry, general chemistry and nursing
chemistry. She's been using Poggle for about 15 years in biochem. And I believe she just wrote a book that got published, Poggle Activities for Biochemistry from Kendall Hunt. And she has been using Poggle for about five years in her non biochemistry classes. And she has facilitated lots of Poggle workshops. So given that this particular podcast is a best of or top tips and FAQs discussion, we have these two guests are going to be absolutely the
people to answer your questions. Newer practitioners I find typically have a lot of similar questions about Poggle pedagogy. And as Wayne says, if you've been doing for 10 years, you know, if you get into your little rut, you know, you've got questions about how to get out of that do something a little bit different. And I cannot wait to hear what they have to say. So the first most frequently asked question that I'm sure everyone can attest to is, if
you're using Poggle pedagogy, how do you cover all the content? How can you be sure that the students have learned what they need to learn? And Tracy, I will start with you. Thanks, Siobhan. And thanks for having me on. I'm really happy to be here. So how do I cover all the content is a super tricky issue. So I think it's a really valid question that lots of people have. And I think that there's a lot of different ways to answer
it. And it's going to depend on your situation. So one thing I usually try to tell people who are starting out is that learning objectives are super, super important. So knowing what your actual learning outcomes are, your learning objectives are, and what are the most important things for your students to be able to do on that topic is really, really helpful. And most of our, you know, high school and middle school practitioners are going to be really
familiar with learning outcomes. And they're going to know exactly what that is. Our college faculty, maybe not so much really familiar with what what a learning outcome is, but really maybe doing some backward design and thinking, what do I want them to be able to do on the exam? And then that's what I need to focus my activity on. The other thing that I found really useful is that, you know, one of my colleagues is a really very good lecture
professor, but he does almost every variation of every problem in class. And so like, I can't do that in a Poggle classroom, I can pick one, maybe two variations of that problem. And so I use homework to kind of cover the rest of those variations, or we have a workshop, which is kind of like a recitation that the students attend. And so we can add some extra
variations in there. But if you're looking at your lecture notes, and you're like, oh, I'm actually doing five different variations on a theme, pick one or maybe two, and then push the others to some other part of your class. Yeah, that's, that's definitely a good little little tip there. Suzanne, how about you? Hi, and thanks for the introduction. And I'm also happy to be here. I think when I first
started, I looked at my lecture notes that I had used before. And I kind of thought, you know, maybe some of this I don't need to talk, I don't need to talk about like stuff that they just needed terminology or things they just needed to learn. I don't like to say that the M word in class, but there is certain language that they do just need to
know. Yeah, I don't have to tell them about it, right? It's like, okay, here, here, just this, look at this chart or this table in the book, and I'll give you a quiz on it. And I don't need to spend time figuring having them figure it out in class, because it's not really, it doesn't really take any critical thinking or any kinds of skills like that. So I just take those things and do them outside of class, and maybe have homework dedicated
to those topics. And then really spend time in class on things that you really want them to learn, things that you want them to discover, and, and that will really help them learn other things, things that are connected. So frequent quizzes also is one way to think about how, how do you know what they've learned, you know, so I give a short clicker quiz every class period to see, you know, just to assess where they are and do did they learn what,
you know, I expected them to learn. Yeah, definitely. Like, I know, for me, it's I always want to have like some sort of warm up the next day, did you get out of the POGO what I needed you to, but I like your comment there, Tracy about learning objectives, because that's funny as a high school teacher myself, it's like, yeah, these are everywhere, you know,
this is a daily thing with us. And so for us, it then becomes like a bit of a one to one, oh, replacing this lesson on this day that hits this learning objective with a POGO that covers the exact same learning objective. It's funny to think of college professors. I did not know what a learning objective was until I started like interacting with the POGO project. So that's where I learned about what it was and how to write one and why they
were important. Interesting, interesting. Um, thank you so much for those answers. So another frequently asked question, and definitely because I've run the virtual fundamentals workshop a number of times. And this is something that comes up. Do I have to POGO every day? slash? How often do you POGO? So this sort of concern about timing and frequency of using POGO activities. And, uh, Suzanne, what's your answer to that?
I think that this really varies on your comfort level. Um, you know, how much time do you have to teach? You know, if you're a high school teacher and you teach them every day or like I have class just twice a week, you know, so I have a longer period. So really, it really is an individual, um, decision. So I have a POGO activity every day, but you
know, it's really up to you. I think that what is really important is that you're consistent and you don't want to have, you know, oh, well, I might do one, you know, every once in a while. So the students think like, well, why are we doing this then? So I think if you go into the semester and you say, we're going to have a POGO every Friday or every other week or whatever you decide, just make it really consistent so that they, they know
they can expect it. It's not like a surprise so that they are ready to do it when you decide that that's when you're going to have it. So, you know, I just reiterate that I think it's important to use the activities to make sure that they spend time on that material. That's really important. Um, you know, and so you may be, maybe the first time when you
start out, you don't do, you do it every two weeks or something. So you might want to pick topics that you know that they're going to have trouble with so that then you can give them feedback while they're learning it. Um, and then spend the other time lecturing that you don't do an activity. Yeah. Um, Tracy, how often do I use POGO? Yeah. So I POGO every day and all of my classes. Um, but, but I think it's really important. Um, when I was
new to POGO, um, there were no published activities in biochemistry yet. Um, and so I did not, I, I did not have POGO every day when I started because I had to write my own stuff. Um, and so it took me about five years to transition from all lecture to all POGO. Um, so I think when I jumped in and started using it in my other classes, which was a more recent thing, there were published materials and I was a pretty experienced facilitator at that point.
So I just grabbed the materials that already existed and we just jumped in and did it every day. But I think if you are getting new to it or getting used to it, or you don't have materials available that you can pull into your class, I think, um, like Suzanne said, consistency is good. Um, I wasn't super great about that because I was writing the activities.
So I wrote the ones that seemed to fit first. So sometimes we went two weeks doing POGO and then all of a sudden I lectured for a week, um, because I didn't know what to do with those. And so I haven't written an activity yet. Um, but I think that's important. Um, I do encourage people though, to try to move toward as much POGO as you can. I think the consistency and the routine as the students get used to working in teams and working every
day in teams, they get better at it. And so if you're only doing it, you know, every other week, they're never going to really get comfortable with their teammates and they're never really going to get comfortable with the idea of learning in a POGO environment and constructing their own learning. So I think the more often you can do it, the better it'll be. Um, but I get it if that's not possible in your first implementation.
Yeah, thank you. Uh, and I'll, for all the high school teachers and middle school teachers out there, um, now this is my opinion, so bear that with, you know, a grain of salt, but um, I think my students would carry out a revolt if I tried to POGO five days a week, uh, teenagers, 14, 15 year olds. Oh, new, new, new, new, new. Um, for me, I think it's, you know, once a week, once or twice a week. Um, because I think, especially with high
school students, variety is key. You got to kind of change it up what you're doing. That way they're not just, they come in, roll their eyes and, uh, you know, and say, Oh my God, we're polling again. Plus just for them, because I do, you know, they're in school for, you know, seven hours a day. It's a lot of brain, it takes a lot of brain capacity to do a POGO activity on their end. Um, and so sometimes they just get mentally a little tired and
they just kind of want to have a worksheet day. And I'm like, okay, sure. Um, my, my favorite, um, comment that came on an anonymous evaluation is, can't you just lecture my brain needs a day off? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. POGO is, is harder on their brain so I can
get that. Um, but, but to, sorry, Suzanne, go ahead. I just, I was just going to jump in and say that I think that if you do POGO and then you, then you lecture the student and like to explain it, the students think that, Oh, you're, you just lecture so good all the time because they just struggled with the concept. And now it makes perfect sense when I've explained it. Yeah. And then they're like, you always get the comment, you should
lecture more because you're really good at it. I was like, no, no, no. It was only good because I made you struggle with it first. So yeah, because you had like already figured it out. You had already done that. You maybe didn't realize it, but you've already gotten to that point. Yeah. Um, and also just to reiterate with both Tracy and Suzanne said, uh, uh, consistency is key so that POGO isn't something special or unique. It's something
that they're used to. There's some sort of routine that they, that your students can do. Um, you know, if you're getting started, like once a unit, once every other week, something like that. Uh, and then another big question, which is like, we could probably have an entire podcast around this question is how do you increase student buy-in with POGO? And this includes things like, how do you introduce POGO? Um, what do you tell your kids about
POGO? How do you talk to them about POGO? What if you have pushback? So there's a lot to kind of bite into this question. How do you increase student buy-in? Um, so Tracy, what are your thoughts on that? So, um, it's a pretty major emphasis, this idea of buy-in in my POGO classes. So I start with, I actually do the first day of class as a syllabus POGO activity. Well, it's not really POGO. It's a syllabus activity. Um, there's no learning
cycles happening. Um, but it's, um, presented as the most boring way I could start this class is to talk to you about the syllabus for 40 minutes. So instead we're going to do this activity. So I kind of try to just even set it up as this is something that's going to be more engaging and more entertaining than me talking at you. Um, and then in the syllabus, there are content learning outcomes and process learning outcomes. So, and they
have to, that's one of the questions. And so they get this kind of idea that the class is going to be about more than just content. And so, and then I keep emphasizing that idea that this, I want you to learn chemistry, but I also need you to learn how to work in teams and I need you to learn how to solve problems on your own. And, um, and so then the second day of all of my classes, I show them data, um, just two pieces of data. Um,
one is kind of from that original J chem ed, Mugen Farrell and somebody else paper. Um, that's just, here's the ABC and then DFW grades, um, in a lecture class and a POGO class. And so they just go through the data. How many people got A's? What percentage of people got DFW's? And Tracy, just briefly for, for our listeners, could you just summarize what the data says just broadly? Oh yeah. So the DFW is much lower in the POGO class compared
to, um, the lecture class. And, and when they did that, that was the same instructors, um, that had, you know, four years of lecture data or something, and then four years of POGO data. Um, and so the idea is that the students should, you know, see that fewer students are doing poorly in the class that's taught using POGO. And then my other piece of data is actually from Suzanne. Um, and so it's, yeah, it's pre-test data, um, in
an organic two class. So looking at how the students who took organic one did when they, when they actually took a pre-test in organic two, um, and in that data, it's astonishingly better. Um, the students in the, in the POGO class did way better on that pre-test than the students who had it in lecture. And so then just the last two questions are, why do you think Dr. Murray teaches using POGO? List two pieces of data. And then why do you
think you should want to learn using POGO? List two pieces of data. And so I kind of hit it pretty hard right at the beginning of the semester. And I did give up content days to do that. So that's also tricky, but I think it's really, really important to get the students to really think about, I'm not just doing this because it's quote unquote easier for me. It's not easier for me, right? Like I am doing this because it's a better way to teach you.
I'm curious, Tracy, can you speak at all to like how your students have responded when you didn't do that at the beginning versus how they respond now? Yeah. So that was, that was missing for a lot of years. Um, especially when I started, so biochemistry, right at capital, that is almost all pre-meds. They are really, really good students. They are really motivated students and it is not really very hard to get them
to do pretty much anything. Um, when I jumped in doing it with like our nursing students and our general chemistry students, I did need to increase buy-in to get them to believe that they weren't just, oh, we're just teaching ourselves or, oh, this is really stupid or, oh, she just doesn't want to lecture. Um, and so I, I had to add some of that stuff later on to get them to be more receptive. And at this point, again, I've been doing this a
long time. So at this point, I have some things in the middle of the semester to kind of assess how you do in it, working in teams, how you do in it, this, and then I actually have now this, just this fall, I introduced an assignment on the last day of class that's like, here's a list of characteristics from employers, you know, which ones did we actually work on this semester? Which ones are you better at, you know, this semester because of this
class? And so to just try even like complete the circle of, Hey, this is why we teach using Pogel. And you think you've seen an improvement with those students who are not in your biochemistry classes. Yeah. Like in terms of, yeah. So I have, um, I mean, next semester there are 37 kids in my Pogel section of GenCam and there's only 22 in the lecture section. So the students seem to really like the idea of Pogel at my institution. Good. All right, Suzanne. So how do you increase
buy-in to Pogel? Well, I think it's interesting that, that Tracy used my data in her class and I actually don't show that data. So, I mean, you know, I think that the data, the data is very, very encouraging that the students in the second semester that was starting the first day, I gave this quiz for many years. Um, and the
students that came out of the Pogel section did, did much better. Um, the issue I have with showing that is that, that my colleagues are in the lecture section that taught the students. And I don't, people will kind of take it, you know, personally that I'm maybe saying that what they're doing isn't as good. So I haven't shown that mostly for that reason. Yeah, that makes, that makes sense. That makes sense.
Um, I did, I have given, there's a pyramid, um, that talks about like, um, where learning takes place. And I've shown that the first day of class, um, and it has, you know, I have them discuss it for like two minutes and, and it has like lectures at the very tippy top that you have like 1% of learning takes place in lecture or something really small. And then at the bottom is like, you know, talking about it with other people and
you know, work, you know, just the things that all the things that we do in Pogel. And so that, um, you know, and then I had a little bit of discussion about, you know, what did you learn from this and, you know, trying to get them on board with the idea of this is why we're doing it. Um, I also talk about, I give them an example about swimming. I actually
put this in the syllabus. I said, you know, okay, if I'm trying to teach you to swim and I lectured to you for three weeks and then the test was to jump in the water and swim, you wouldn't do very good, right? So we're, you know, you need to practice and not do so well while everybody's here, you know, help to help you out while I'm here and I
have undergraduate learning assistance that helped me too. So, and then throughout the semester I'll bring in the process skills, um, and, and talk about, you know, you're going to need this in a job and, you know, we'll talk about why it's important kind of just throughout the semester. I put things like that in, not just on the first day. Sure.
Uh, along with this question, um, and something that especially high school, middle school teachers will deal with is, uh, because we have very, uh, heterogeneous populations. What about when you get like a confrontational student or someone who is just really not receptive to, um, to buy in or gives you some pushback about, uh, working in the group? How do you respond to that when your students are like, even after you've introduced it and they're like, no, um, Suzanne, any thoughts on that?
I think that, you know, as an instructor, you have to be consistent and strong about this is why I'm doing it. You know, I'm doing it because this will help you. Like you may
not feel like it. Um, you know, in class, I would try to encourage them, you know, to get their opinion, but they're, if they're sort of sitting there and, you know, giving you a nasty face or something, I would ask them to come talk to me, you know, after class or in my student hours and just explain, you know, what, why am I doing it and, um, what they could do to improve. Sometimes they, maybe they're not comfortable with their team.
Um, and then I would ask, you know, is it, is there something that's not working where you don't feel comfortable talking to people and what, what can we do to help you out to, you know, so I keep teams the same all year because I also, because I have a large class. So, so I don't switch them because it would take too much logistical challenge to do that. So, so, um, but, but if, if there's an issue, then, you know, I'll ask them, do you want
to change teams? And maybe, you know, sometimes that helps. Um, one of my colleagues had a group of students in P chem and they were, they were, they didn't think they needed the class and they were very antagonistic because she ended up just putting them together. So she put the four like grumps in the same group. And then, and she said, you know, at least they didn't, you know, antagonize anybody else. They were all unhappy. So they all just
rolled their way through their eyes through the activity. Um, Tracy push back from students. What are your thoughts? What are your experiences? So I actually called it localizing the poison. I had four students that, that were just poisonous. Like no matter what team I put them in, they
just made that team not functional. And, um, I eventually put them all together and at least like they didn't learn much, but at least they weren't disrupting the whole rest of the class because they all just sat there and complained about how much they didn't want to do it instead of doing anything. Um, so if you have enough, that's definitely one option and they don't respond. Usually when I have antagonistic students, I just keep
on them kind of like Suzanne said, like, well, look, this is how it is. And, um, this is how it's going to be. And this is why I'm doing it for you. Um, I will sometimes be like, you know, Kevin Ahern gives really good biochem lectures. So, you know, they're on the internet. Go find his lectures and watch those. If you think that'll help. Um, usually
I can bring them around just by engaging them and continuing to talk to them. Yeah. But I think as a college professor, we don't, our students don't have to come to class, right? Like I don't, I got a lot of fewer issues that I'm parents calling me than, than maybe a high school or, or middle school teacher might have. So I don't know how great my strategies would be for, for that population.
I will say for me, um, I do introduce Poggle with a focus on the process skills. They take a content day and focus on process skills and teach them also how, how do we Poggle? You know, what are the roles and, um, looking towards what's the benefit of that. And, uh, it does sort of end with them looking at the list of top skills that employers are looking for. And I make the point that, you know, even if you're just applying for a job in
McDonald's, they'll want to know that you're able to work as part of a team. They'll want to know that you're able to manage your time. Um, and even if you don't remember the chemistry, you're going to learn these skills and you can put that on your resume. You are, you
are learning something that you can sell yourself with. Um, I will also add that I, when I was flying out to PNM in 2019 on my flight to Chicago, I was seated next to a woman who I realized was the owner of a very large chain of car dealerships in this area, like huge, like all over local ads. So obviously very successful business person. And I was talking to her about Poggle because of course I was. And she then told me, I talk about students
working as part of a team and learning to work as part of a team. And she said to me, she says, that's so great. She said, I have had people on my team at my dealerships who are good, who were good salespeople, but they couldn't work with others. So I fired them. And I was like, you just gave me the best arsenal of all. You gave me the best thing to say, because then I can say to my students, I'm like, this is not just Mrs. Julian talking.
Like this is actual business people talking. And I think that that helps a lot. Uh, the weird year of COVID, I did not do my introductory, like, why do we Poggle thing? And man, I think it made a difference. Like it really made a difference. They were not nearly as bought
in. Um, so yes. So to those listening out there, do something at the beginning of the year to talk about why you're using this technique, because we really do think it makes a difference with how students will work in your room. I think it's also important to sort of keep reinforcing that throughout the semester or the year, the class year, just because, you know, sometimes they forget and absolutely it's like just lecture. It's so much easier.
Yeah. Is it either right after or right before the first test? I also put up the data, which I can't remember exactly what paper it was from, but it was, it was, I believe from the proceedings of the national Academy of sciences, a PNAS paper where they talked about students think they learn more in lecture classes, but they actually learn more in active classes. And so usually I give it a few weeks, you know, for them to start getting grumpy and
feeling like they aren't learning anything. And then I throw that up there and say, it's totally normal for you to feel this way, but we're going to keep doing it because look, you'll learn more. You'll do better on the test. So I agree with Suzanne, you know, keep kind of emphasizing, reminding. Yeah, definitely. The next big frequently asked question is about timing in terms of how can you ensure that everyone finishes a Poggle activity in the time that you want?
What happens if a team falls behind? What happens if you don't wind up getting through the activity in class? So timing is always a really big question. And Suzanne, we'll start with you. Yeah, I use timing slides during an activity. Like I do have a large class, so I have a slide that has like a timer on it. So usually I'll give them eight to 10 minutes for a particular model. And then at the end of each model, I'll ask a clicker question to gauge their understanding.
So that's kind of how I report out in a large class. Some teams might get stuck on a concept and they'll just usually it's something kind of minor, they'll get stuck on it. And so I or one of my learning assistants will tell them, you know, you guys, you guys got to
move on here because you're getting behind. If they're consistently behind, I usually tell them to maybe look over the activity before class, you know, and maybe work through the first model just to get so that you don't get so behind that you aren't aren't able to keep up. So that's if an individual team is behind. You know, sometimes we get stuck
on a point and we don't finish it. And I not going to stress about that. So, you know, what I'll do then is, you know, some teams maybe get through it, but then I'll do in my sort of opening for the next class, I'll go over that. So just spend a few mini lecture on it. It's like, OK, you know, this we didn't and not everybody got to this. So this is kind of, you know, what you were supposed to get out of it. And it's really not been
an issue with students. If it's if we don't get through like a lot of it, then I would pick up and continue the activity the next time during the next class. So, you know, if it's like two or three models, that if it's a really long activity, I may just put it in half. So I like that idea a lot of almost if a team is consistently not working as quickly
giving them the activity in advance, so giving them a chance to read through things. Yeah, I think that for for some people, they get they read slower or they spend a lot of time just looking at the models and they just don't get started in a quick fashion. So having
them look at it ahead of time, I think, was really helpful for them. Yeah. But I do tell them, don't you know, you still need to talk about it with your teammates, you know, you don't want to just sit there and wait for the clicker question, you still do want to talk to your teammates and see what they thought about that particular, you know, whatever the question was on. Yeah. I think I'm going to steal that tip. Thank you, Susan. Tracy
timing. What do you think? I'm pretty much very similar things to what Suzanne said. I think that if if they don't finish, it's always a judgment call. So one thing that I try to set is the expectation is if your team doesn't get done, you have to do it on your own. Right. Like you have to finish the activity by yourself. We're not taking more time for this. Like that's kind of the class expectation. And I have heard students say, like, guys, we've
got to finish. Like, I can't do these on my own, or I don't have time to do this tonight. Like we need to get done, like stay on target. And so sometimes just that expectation that if we don't finish, you will do this on your own will keep teams moving along because they want to make sure they get done. That said, I don't always tell them you have to finish
it on your own. So I can sometimes I will say, like, I will just devote the next time I'm like, everybody finish, but I will give you 10 minutes at the start of the next class to talk to your teammates and ask any questions that you might have of me or my learning assistants. Or I will like Suzanne, if it's a lot, I'll just be like, OK, well, whatever for what,
like the stoichiometry this year was a nightmare. I didn't stick from high school. I don't know if it was a covid thing, but normally the students can fly through that because they remember it from high school and it's no big deal. And that that took two days this year. So it's a really important topic. They weren't getting it. We needed to just stop, like stop. OK, everybody just stop where you are. Don't do any over the next two days or three days
until we meet again. And then we'll all come back and keep pick it up again. So I think it's totally a judgment call as a teacher. The other thing I do think if like if you have a class, I don't teach 250 students. I think it's like 40 max. And so I tend to wander through the classroom a lot. And so I will stop by teams that appear to be off track and say like, oh, wow, that's really interesting. But what about number three?
You know, to kind of remind them to get back on track. So I think if you can try to pay attention to timing as you walk around the room, if you do have a smaller class where that's possible, I think that you can keep pushing and guiding them toward getting done. Yeah. And to something Suzanne said as well, if some things I've noticed in my own classes, even if they're getting stuck on one little point that you kind of need to go over there
and be like, who are we perseverating a bit too much on this? And maybe we need to be moving on. And and also the idea of like the mini lecture as a way to make sure that everyone's on the same page, even if they didn't get to all the questions, you know, is a great way of summarizing and just making sure that nothing, no ball got dropped in the timing
portion of it. Another very common question is roles, because we know with good Poggle pedagogy, our students are not just working in teams, but they are working in teams with specific roles. So along with roles, we have things like what roles do you use? How do you assign roles? Do the students switch roles, things like that? So Tracy, what are some of your comments regarding using roles in your classroom? So first, there was a Poggle podcast episode all about roles. Yes, there was. Well, shout
out to that one right there. So you should listen to that. I was picking up stuff in that podcast on like how to do roles better. So it's a really good one. One thing that I have done to try to make it so I do assign roles. One of the things I do to make it, I think it's more fun. I think my students think it's more fun is that my students each get some sort of alternate identity in my classroom. And then I use that to assign roles.
So I have done Star Wars. So we have Jedis and rebels and stormtroopers and droids. Right. I have done Greek gods. And I have done like this particular semester, I did Rick Rordan books, which he wrote Percy Jackson and the lightning thief and all those parts. So we had demigods from the Percy Jackson series and we had magicians from the King Chronicles and we had in Harrier from the Magnus Chase series. And then I ran out of series. So he
has some other books that he helps promote. So we had Pandavas, which are part of the Indian culture. And so like just trying to mix it up and everybody on a team has one of these like alternate identities. And then each day I just rotate. So managers, you're the Jedi today and the public relations, you're going to be stormtroopers. And then I just rotate that. The students kind of fun. The Greek gods was kind of fun because they had to talk
about it. Like, do you like water? Okay, then you're a kid of Poseidon and do you like Lego? Okay, then you're the kid of Hephaestus. And so we got them to like talk to each other a little bit about what they liked and didn't like in very non-important ways. So I think they really like that. And it keeps it so much easier for me because I just have the same
slide and I just, you know, move the roles down every day. And so I know that everybody in the class has done each of the roles many, many times. And to that end, I'll follow up as well. Do you feel it's important that every student gets a chance to be every role? Yes. So I think there are caveats to that. I've had students with like really severe social anxiety. So like asking them to present to the whole class was just really not something
they could do. So I think you have to be a little careful with it. But I do think that it is important for each student to get to practice each role. One of the things I actually picked up from the podcast was the idea of actually giving people a little checklist. Like I was the manager, did I do these things today? Or I was the, you know, public relations,
did I do these things today? So I think maybe I'll try to start working that in, in some case, but I do think it's important to really get the full picture, the full experience of Fogel that you have to do each of the different roles. And definitely as Tracy said, now after listening to this podcast, you're going to go listen to the podcast about roles or more in depth discussion there. All right, Suzanne, how do you use roles in your classroom?
So with a large class, the role issue is kind of a large logistical challenge. And I've played around with a few different things over the years. One thing that I used to do, I haven't done it recently because I don't have physical folders anymore, but I used to have folders with the team members names on them and each name had a number. And then I would just rotate through and say, okay, today number one is the manager, two is the
manager, and so on. And then the next day it would just be number two is the manager and so on. But now I don't actually have physical folders anymore. I would hand out things in the folders, but now it's all electronic. So I frequently will use roles now on my team quizzes. So I have team quizzes before each test. And if you ever want to see students working really well together, have them do a team quiz because they are, they have one
quiz with that they have to turn in together and they really did just work very well. They're all really concerned about what the answer is going to be because they're getting points for this. And I do use, they have to actually get, someone has to write, so someone has to be the recorder, someone has to be a timekeeper, someone has to make sure everybody agrees those kinds of things. So I usually will put those roles on the quiz itself saying, okay.
But because of the large class, I don't, I can't really enforce who's doing what. And so that I usually let them pick and I'll tell them, if you recorded last time, someone else should do it. But I don't enforce it because it's logistically a challenge. So no, I like that. Like you said, with the large class, the idea of the team quizzes, that certainly gets them to practice. I love the team quizzes. They just, they really, really, it really pushes them to work together.
So yeah. And, but hopefully using all those process skills that they have built up so far. And speaking of that class size, Suzanne, you have very large classes, larger than I can possibly imagine as a high school student, as a high school teacher. So how does Poggle work? This is another big FAQ. How does Poggle work in a large lecture class? Yeah. I, you know, when I've done workshops before, people always say, well, you know,
you can do that with your small class, but I could never do it in my large class. And I'm like, no, you can't. It's going to look different because, you know, I have large number of students in a fixed seated stadium seat. They're all squished together with those teams, little desks that nothing moves. So, you know, I think really a team of three works better than a team of four because they, you know, if it's four, it's kind of like two
and two and maybe the two middle ones will talk. But I tell them, you know, pick teams of three or four. I won't let them do five because it's just, it's going to be three and two, right? So, so I didn't really think three works best, but then if you have a student who doesn't come, then you're down to two. So it's a big logistical challenge with a large class, but you know, you, you make it work. I, I have to use under my undergraduate
learning assistant. So I generally have a learning assistant for every three to five groups, depending on how many, how many LA's I can get for the semester. And what I found that really works best is to assign them to the same three to five teams for the whole semester. Because when I didn't do that, the learning assistants would kind of like hang
out and chat with each other until somebody raised their hand. And so now they're placed around the room and each learning assistant has their section and I give them a sheet, a piece of paper. Sometimes it's a rubric for process skill assessments. And sometimes it's a, sometimes they do it electronically on their phone, but I give them something
that they have to actually take notes on about the teams that they're interacting with. And this is really to enforce that, that they have interacted with the teams at least two times, two to three times during each team during the class. And so that checklist, that little check sheet sort of enforces that. Cause a lot of times they'll be like, they'll just kind of hang back and like wait until somebody has a question, but that's really
not how you facilitate. So, so I think that that's been really helpful. So assigning them and then they also get to know the students. So they know the students names so that on test day they know who those people are so that they can't send somebody else in to take their tests. So, you know, I don't know who they all are, but my LA's will because they have, you know, five, maybe five. So up to maybe max they have 20 students total. So
they know who they all are. So that's been, I think the LA's have been really, really important to a large class. I don't pay them. So a lot of people say, well, we don't have funding to pay them. I was like, I don't pay them either. They take a class for credit. Most of my LA's are pre-health majors and they, they want to, they want to share their knowledge. They want to put it on their resume. They're usually very, very consistent and,
and, and, you know, they do a great job. So are you recruiting, are these students that you've already had? Yeah, for the most part, I like to have students that I've had because they understand the teamwork and they understand, you know, how my class, in fact, all of, all of my students, except for one year when I, I was on sabbatical the whole year before, I didn't actually have any students that I could pull from. So, so that year was, was
hard, was hard to recruit students, but yeah. So I've had, they're all students that I've had. So usually what I do is I, I announced it in the second semester of class for the next year. And then I put an application up on canvas and they, they apply. So, so that the, the LA's have been really, really, really helpful. Another thing, so I do clicker questions too. Yeah, I was going to ask about that because obviously like reporting out is going to look
vastly different in such a large classroom. So yeah, talk to me about your clicker questions. So at the end, so I give them, depending on how long the model is, I give them five to 10 minutes to work on it. The LA's will go and you sometimes, especially at the beginning, I'll give them like check in after question three and see what they got or whatever, or ask them, you know, I give them a few questions for the LA, to the LA's to ask the students.
And then I will have a, we use top hat, but it's, it's like a clicker basically. I will put a question up on this, on the screen and then they will discuss it and answer it. I give them points for answering it, but not for getting it right because I want them, I want them to be honest about it. So that then, then I spend maybe two minutes after that sort of just, you know, going over it. Sometimes I'll ask, you know, okay, who picked
B? Why did you pick that? So I'll just sort of randomly shout out sometimes. Sorry, if I can jump in there. Is it a question from the POGLE or is it like a sort of an assessment question? It's usually related to sometimes it's an exact question or sometimes it's like,
this one's really similar to question five or whatever. So sometimes it's exactly the same, but you know, when they're learning it and I have, you know, teacher of organic chemistry, so it might have slightly different structure, they think it's totally different. Right. So, so, you know, sometimes it's like, okay, this is really exactly the same, but I've, you know, added a methyl group over here or something, but yeah. So it's, it's
usually based on the very, it's not the same. It's very similar. And so then, you know, if the answers are, you know, everybody, everybody is equally distributed, ABCD, then I'm like, okay, let's go back. And sometimes I'll repoll it. I'll say, okay, why, you know, why did you pick A? Why did you pick B? And then I maybe give them a hint and then we'll, you know, I'll re-ask the question. That doesn't happen too much. That takes more time, but
it's okay. Another thing I've been doing that, that has really, really helpful is I have small, small whiteboards. So, you know, probably eight by 10 size. And each LA has a whiteboard and a marker. And I will have it on my slide and I'll say, okay, the LA's will hand out a whiteboard to one team member, to one team, and they hand it to a different person in the team so that that team is the recorder, that team member is the recorder. And then
I'll tell them, you need to write your answer to this question on the whiteboard. And then that gets me to go to get around the whole classroom and I'll look at all the whiteboards. So we'll have eight to 10 whiteboards out there and I'll look at the whiteboard and give them feedback. So that really helps me get to the back of the room, right? Because my LA's are back there, but I don't always get to the back because I'm trying to orchestrate
all the other stuff. So, I really like the whiteboards and it gets every team. So the LA's are keeping track of when do they, who did they hand the whiteboards out to? So I usually, I don't do it every class, but sometimes I'll do two to three times in a class. Just depends on the content. Like they draw stuff out, right? They draw structures and stuff. So I think that that's been really, really helpful. So I know some people use whiteboards
and the students will hold them up. My class is so big, like I won't be able to see them. But no, that sounds like a variation on it that you were using for your large classes. Yes. How did you start the Learning Assistant LA program that you use? You know, actually, you know, I've been doing this for a long time. And when I first started, I was, I started, I brought my own activities, but they weren't very good. But, but they're
better now. But, but when I first started, I think everyone always says that when I started, my activities weren't good. So yeah. Well, you know, this was like when really when POGO was first getting started too. So, but at any rate, I had a, I think it was like my second year, I had an undergrad came up to me and said, I want to, I want to help you. So I used to use graduate students because we have grad students that help. Great. And
they just, you know, they would come to class and they, they weren't very good. They didn't want to be there. They don't want to come every time. And so then when one of my, my former undergrad students came and said, you know, I want to do that. I want to be there. And I'm like, that's a great idea. And at that point, they just felt a couple of them just volunteered. And then we set this course up. So now they take the course for credit.
Every semester they get one and a half credits for, for that. And I have them, you know, we meet every week. So we go over, how do you facilitate what's POGO? You know, they've all been through it. They all know, you know, how my class works. But we talk about the pedagogy. We talk about the process skills. We talk about how you facilitate and you don't
tell them the answer and all of those things. So, you know, it's evolved really through the years, but they also have a, they also hold a help session, a study session that they pair up and they hold it once a week so that they kind of are a TA in that regard.
And then they're a learning assistant during the class period. So yeah. So now we have the, you know, a lot of, a lot of faculty use the, the, the LA's for their, to help them in the class, even if they don't use POGO, you know, they might use, you know, they might just have here, let's work some problems, you know, more like a flipped classroom and then the, the LA's will be there helping the students out. So, you know, we have, we
do have classes up to 500 students. I fortunately have not taught that large of a class, but, but that's it. We have one classroom that holds 500, which I have not been in, thank God. And Tracy, you said your class sizes are what, around 40? Yeah, 40 is usually the biggest. So yeah. I did, I did have 42 students sign up for Biochem one year, but I was able to get that split into two classes. So that's my institute. Like what? 42 people? No, no, no, no, no, we're not doing that. Let's, let's.
40, it's so small. But I did want to comment. I also use learning assistants. So even I pretty much any class larger than 20, I try to find an undergrad who can come and help out and be a learning assistant, just cause, cause one person can handle, you know, up to five groups, that's pretty okay. And when you get to six and seven teams that you're trying to make sure that you're interacting with and answering their questions and keeping them on track, it does
start to get away from you. So even if you don't have giant Lee large classes, the, the learning assistant is a, is a great option. If you can make it work, I do pay mine. I have money to pay mine. But I think it's a really good option. Like a class, then you won't have to pay them. No, I use it actually as a recruiting tool. So part of how I get students to come is I tell them that they can work for the department.
So they're reviewing for the MCAT while also being paid. And then they don't have to work at Starbucks. Yeah. I think the learning assistants are, you know, it's really a win-win cause they learn them. They learn the content better because they've, they've had a second, another year of it. You know, all of them have done great on the, the MCAT portion that has organic chemistry on it anyway. I mean, they're all good students anyway, but, but it's also great
because they just learned the material. And so they can sometimes remember better than I can what, what did they struggle with? Right? Because sometimes it's like, you know, you think about how, how can I explain it? Sometimes the concepts are so simple. You think so simple that what, you know, you kind of sometimes can struggle to figure out how, how can I explain this in a different way? You know, but, but the, but the undergrads can, you
know, they were just there. So I think that having them to maybe just describe something slightly different, you know, is really helpful. And then I also get my LA's this part of the bias. We jumped back to the first, first couple of questions, but I actually get the first day of class, I get my LA's to come up to the front of the class and talk a little bit
about how, how they were successful in the class. And since they all had me, they talk about the teamwork and you know, you know, and I tell them, you know, mentioned something about what, how you worked in the teams as well as other things too. And so I think coming from the undergrads too, it's, it's nice because, you know, these are their peers. So, yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Just one thing that you're talking about having the clicker questions be not for a grade, they have to answer it for a grade, but not get it correct for a grade. And I think that's something just in general too, in Poggle classrooms, because one thing that we didn't mention here, but definitely that comes up is, you know, do you grade the
Poggle activities? And my, my instinct is always to say, you don't want to like grade a student when they're in the process of learning something for the very first time, you want to give them an opportunity to make a mistake, you know, to, to test their learning, to see, to see where their understanding or their misunderstanding is. Yeah. I, I tell them, I just want you to answer because if you don't understand it, I need
to know that because then we can stop. But, you know, they get really excited when they get it right. You know, sometimes they'll cheer, you know, yes, then we got it right. So it just makes for, you know, an interesting, fun class. Yeah. Tracy, do you want to jump in there on something? Mostly just that I, because I don't teach giant classes. I do collect a physical piece
of paper from each team every day. But I, and I, those are graded for completion. And if they don't get to the end of the activity, so like they maybe didn't get the last question done, I always tell them, as long as I would, you were working hard and you were working on the activity and you weren't totally distracted, like, yeah, like you still get full credit for the whole thing. But I want to see it because I do want to make sure that you're
on the right track. Cause if something went wrong, I want to be able to talk to you at the next class and say, okay, this was not right. Like let's revisit this topic. So yeah, there's accountability and then there's, you know, correctness and they're two very different things. Thank you so much, Tracy and Suzanne. Those are all of the FAQs that we had time
for today. Those are again, are big ones. So I'm hoping that if you're listening, that you got something out of that, that they were helpful, a great place to go with more questions. The POGLE website, obviously they've got an FAQ section. Also the POGLE practitioners Facebook page, great place to ask a question. You're going to get a lot of practitioners
giving you an answer, helping you out. Big shout out for that. And I'll also add to like, honestly, if you ever went to a workshop, feel free to just email your facilitators because trust me, we're all POGLE nerds. We love to talk about POGLE. So if you have some sort of question about POGLE, please don't hesitate to reach out to us and we'd love to answer that for you. So with that being said, again, Tracy, Suzanne, thank you so much for joining
us here tonight. And I will hand it back to Wayne. Well thanks, Siobhan. And thanks to Suzanne and Tracy for such a great conversation today and listening to the podcast and actually to all our podcasts. It's very evident how much POGLE practitioners like to talk about POGLE and how they like to talk to each other
and have great conversations like this. So we have an offer for you. On February 2nd in collaboration with the networking group, we are offering a Zoom happy hour for POGLE practitioners to come together, make new friends, say hi to old friends, talk about POGLE, talk about anything you want to talk about. And we're going to have details for that coming
up in the very, very near future. We hope you all can join us. But for now, keep having a great time in your POGLE classrooms and we'll see you a little bit later on down the road. Bye bye everybody.