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This is the Poet Speaks. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Poet Speaks podcast. Now today we have some very very special guests here to speak about a new sonic poetry LP called Muttered Tongue. What is a word in utter space? There we go. Mutter Tongue crackles in its exploration of land, language and sound, combining the intensity of dub poetry with the intricacies of experience mental poetics. This album is a sonorous soundscape partner of the collection
of the same name from Exile Editions. Everyone, please welcome to the post Speaks Podcast. The collaborators of this new exciting project Lillian Allen, Gary Barwin and Gregory Betts. Everyone, how are we doing today?
Yeah?
Fantastic, Yeah, crackling.
Crackling, there you go, cracking yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah, absolutely absolutely, Now everyone kind of to begin today. You know, we'll go straight into it, tell us, and maybe we'll begin with you, Gregory, I mean muttered Tongue. Where did you come with the name? The name alone just is a tongue twister, but it also it really pulls you in Muttered tongue. Tell us, where's the name coming from? You know?
To described as crackling with expluation of land, language and sound, but what is really the seed of this project and how they grow into an LP and a book?
Thanks so much.
Yeah, the mutter tongue is well, we are the mutterers, and if you listen to the sound track and the LP, you will hear us muttering, but muttering strategically. One of the things that we were touching on in this project is the idea of mother tongue, right, which is echoed
in the idea of mutter tongue. But we all have a funny relationship to what would be our ancestral mother tongue, being somewhat displaced from that, and so we wanted to evoke the idea of the mother tongue and think through the relationship that we have to language, but show that there's been a little bit of breakage in the lineage that we've inherited. There's something strange about language. There's also
there's something really nice in the mutter, the mutters. That is that part of speech where it's sound and it's language, but it's not quite received as language, right, it's not heard yet. But in some cases it's the way that we hear our ancestral tongue. When we actually get the chance to hear it. Know it's language, but it's actually more sound than meaning at this point, which is a lot, but it's also something to explore.
It's a subject position we're interested in that export.
That's very fascinating and I want to pass it to you.
Gary, tell me a bit how then, I.
Mean, how does this collaboration come about? You know, all three of you, and we're going to get into a little later. All three of you come from similar but different backgrounds. How did you kind of point find yourselves in this same space to make this very experimental, poetic album with all the sonic tell us, Gary, how did you all? Did y'all know each other? How did we come across this amazingness?
Yeah?
Yeah, we've known each other for years and known each other's work works, and I think coming together over or over sort of similar interests. I mean, interested in the in the alevant garde and some of the kind of parallinguistic stuff that Greg was talking about, the noises of sound poetry and experimentalness, but also the performativity of language. So that was always something I mean, Lilian has done.
It was as key in the in the creation of dub poetry, and so that's highly performative and turning turning music into or turning poetry into kind of performative you know,
near musical uh uh expression. And so and Greg and I have been have worked in experimental poetics, making making the sounds, making performativity, and so that really we saw there was a lot of interesting overlap and also and then and then combined with with the kind of the puzzling through what language means, what language means now, what language means in relationship to identity and place and inheritance
and all of that. So I mean, I think that thinking about language is something that is performative.
Is embodied that.
Tom Waits I think when he was inducted into the Songwriters Hall of Fames, that songs are just a really interesting thing to do with air, and I think we were just interested in doing something really interesting with air poet, you know, in terms of poetry, the kind of filling it with uh embodied performativity, as I said, and with the kind of range of of of language that we that we all think about. So it seemed quite natural to come to come together. So we met at a
at a studio to record. We recorded the LP first, and so we we had some ideas, we had some texts, and we also went in and jammed and so and and it basically like in a very in a very musical kind of way. I felt like, you know, you read about Miles Davis or John Coltrane, they have a little scrap of papers said, Okay, I think this is going to be the album. You know, here's some little things. Let's you know, everybody brings their background and then they make a thing, and which is what we did.
Absolutely Now that sounds like almost the perfect way. You know, people wish they could create that, you know, just finding finding ways to collaborate in and just bringing together these different mediums and just you know the fact that y'all have such backgrounds together, but you have respect for what each each and every person does really makes such an
amazing collaboration. Now this brings together what I found interesting dub poetry, experimental poetics, and sonic experimentation, so that already is bringing in all different parts of my senses into one.
Right.
So, uh, and Lillian, we'll start with you here. How did your practice and how did each of your practices really intersect and influence one another during the makings of this work? Seeing you're all coming from different modalities, different mediums, but also very much the same medium, how did that kind of intersect and influence y'all to make this work? And what were maybe some of the classes that y'all had as you're creating this together? Lily, and we can start with you.
Yeah, well, you know, we are kind of boundary bouncing and boundary breaking in terms of each of our practice or range of practice. And uh, we you know, we've we've sort of worked with language in a way that is liberating, language being you know, the most malleable art tools that we could you know, utilize and so also free. So coming together, we each bring what we had in terms of uh, evolving from our practices. We have worked together over the years and tried out a few things
and stayed true to who we we we are. So what happens is then we create this collective pool of creativity and artistic work that we kind of you know, play in if you if you listen to the album, you see that play is underscored. And as you know Greg talked about, you know, going from the ancestral you know, echoings and sounds. You know it's there, it's there and the air. What what happens before language itself? You know,
how does it get set? You know, we have this agreement, you know, and it's set, as Clan would say, and but we know, we have this impulse, we know, and it's especially we're in this period of time where we're connecting and we're talking about collaborations. So for me and for us, it's not just the art. It's it's that we want to transform this community, we want to transform
the world. We want to say, here are possibilities that we know we can make and we know exist, and we're using language and negotiate that in terms of so in terms of the clashes, because we were all each I think secure in where we're coming from, it was more of a flow and a collaboration. If there any kind of stress. It would be on the administrative part of all artists. We're all busy and we don't know that much about contracts and so forth and divving up
that stuff. But in terms of the creative thing, I think we have hit a groove and we give each other grace and we give each other space, and we're all willing to to just you know, take something gives something and to go after it and make it something that we each can feel absolutely comfortable with.
You know what, one thing I was thinking about, I was thinking not a source of conflict, but a source of it was I found it really revealing. So there are some pieces that we do that are very much come out kind of out of your dub practice. And so it's it's racialized language, and so it's really interesting to think about, like, Okay, where do I, yeah, I'm this Jewish guy, I'm I, you know, how do I relate to that? And in what way can I meaningfully participate?
So it also highlights the nature of language and tradition and how it's embedded in culture and empower relations for that matter. So it's like, Okay, cool, I can play saxophone on that, but I'm not going to do like I'm not going to like do to make an accent or I'm not I'm not like, how do I how
do I have? How do I inhabit that world meaningfully add to it, kind of connect it to say experiences that say my from my background that I understand about about language loss, or about power relations or but yet not you know, but be sensitive and aware. So I found that just a really interesting thing. So I got to play saxophone on a bunch of stuff, which is really great, which doesn't feel like I was. You know, I got to participate and collaborate, and I got to
remix and add things. But at the same time, it just highlighted the awareness of our our relationships to tradition and to the position of language, so that I thought that that was actually really a revealing part of the collaboration, not a conflict, but but an awareness.
I think.
Absolutely I kind of want to unpack that a little bit more. I love that you said there's that cultural awareness. You know, you you describe yourself a Jewish guy. You don't want to fake a Jamaican accent. Tell us like I mean, and anyone can kind of like poke in here, tell us more about how important that was for you. You know, collaborations happen, hybridity happens with music with genres and language all the time since the beginning of time, since people
have travassed, you know, went across the world. Tell us how important that was that cultural sensitivity and we can start with anyone. How important was that knowing that dynamic and like you said, Gary, that power relationship, in those power dynamics for creating a work like this, How important was that for you all to keep that at the you know, at somewhat of the forefront of your mind, being able to still be respectful and graceful as you're creating this work.
Well, I just want to on the back to say that wasn't going to happen in the negative with people I work with and to know and you know, Gary and Greg who've worked before, and they've worked in community, their allies, collaborators, and they understand those dynamics, and they pay attention to it, and when things have come up in other contexts, we have just dealt with it. So
I'll let Greg and Gary take away from that. But in terms of you know, what I stand for and the work I do, these are highly selected individuals that I work with and if their mistakes, we'll deal with it. And it's right. They pay very good attention and and you know, when I have to bring anything up or deal with it, it's well received and dealt with it. So yeah, you're looking at you know, not just something thrown to I mean creatively in a way, but you're
looking at what underscores the creativity. And you can get a sense of transformation and open insistence, of kind of newness and a kind of futuristic look just from the vibrations of the piece. So that's from the artists and their stance for sure.
I think one thing that I think I really love that Earlian. I thought that was very well said.
The The thing about this group of us is that we've we've formed in live environments, often on stage and improvising together. It demands a certain kind of attention to each other, taking room, but making room while you're taking room, so you have to be able to listen while you're making sounds, and that kind of interaction it creates. It
creates a really kind of tense moment of meeting. And one of the things that I've really loved about this project is actually being able to meet Gary and Lillian in these open environments where they bring themselves. They're not trying to shut anything down about who they are in the backgrounds and where they come from, but we're actually letting those those histories, our personal histories, our ancestral histories, come to the fore and meet together in a place
of mutual wonderment and play. As the Lion said earlier, it's really it's really remarkable to do that, and then to do that in front of an audience too, right on stage live, is really exciting.
I love to just think about Sorry, let you go ahead.
No, I'm just saying that, you know, I open up the space for example with or in Isaac who is one of the lead in Canadian produce and so on, and you know that is very special space and very privileged. So they've earned that. You know, Gary and Greg, that isn't open you know, you know, you know this is this is this is kitchen and homie culture.
So studio was amazing that.
You just see some of that. This is this is not just about production or getting the thing. This is about building communities, is allyship, This is about transforming the world and as Gary says, you know, paying attention to see how do we do that in respectful ways, in being conscious of where we are in terms of the power dynamics, because otherwise that's where you have the conflicts and you can't go any further or you know, the response to the mistakes are dreadful. So we we're we're
we're we're in a good spot, you know. So we have done that kind of work among ourselves informally to be able to get to the spaces we are and to produce that kind of work that we produced.
And part of I was gonna say, part of the part of the whole project is exactly about this, which is language isn't neutral. You come to language, you come to a specific language, and the language occasions. It's saturated in culture and history and as I said, in power relations, all of these things. And that's what part of what we're exploring. What is mother tongue? How did we come to our own particular languages? How does language work in society?
How so I mean, well, that's part of what it is, and that language just isn't this neutral carrier of content. Language is language is the content and the language moment is the content, So us working together in all these different ways kind of like doing this kind of dance of interactivity through our own how we've come to say, the English language and the kind of English language and the kind of language and performative practice, which, as Lilian said,
includes community. Language doesn't exist without community. You don't you know, you don't start language. You're not on a desert island by yourself making up language. Language developed through history and the history of I mean through community and the history
of that community. And that's part of what we were interested in doing, like exploring it both in terms of the content of the work, but also in terms of the practice of the work, like how this evolved, how we how we work together, how we improvise, how we create create work. And that's that's a really exciting and
inspiring place to be. Rather than writing a poetry book that I'm that I'm going to just go and quietly write my hard one versus that express the oh the woe that I have here sitting at my desk for.
Sure, for sure now thank you all for that and kind of moving along here. In addition to language, also what's really key here is sound. So sound is so central in terms for mutter tongue, I mean, and not just as music. But really what I gathered was, it's the texture, it's the vibrations. Even in the silent places. Sound is rarely essential, right, because sound is even silence.
Right.
So I'm curious how did you all and we'll start with you Greg, how did you all approach the recording process so that this LP could kind of become its own artistic project, not just a mirror of what you all had or what was for the text, So kind of what was the how did you approach the recording process of this whole thing? And again we'll start with you Greg.
Yeah, well we started by showing up.
I mean, that's the most important thing is being together in the room, being together on a stage. There is a lot of improvisitory material that ended up on the record, but I think in terms of the sound is absolutely key point of investigation. Here we've got language, but we also have that point where sound becomes language.
Right, there's like that that before in us that.
Happens right before sound crosses over and becomes meaningful as language. We wanted to pull back a little bit from clear speech and actually think about how clarity happens same with.
Same with music.
Right, there's a there's a there's a line between pure noise and and and music and the patterns and rhythms and genres that music established where a little bit before it descent, it arrives in music, which which creates a space of openness between before language, before music and when we when we came together in the studio, we had we had a number of ideas that we wanted to explore,
but we were doing it on the floor. I mean, this was this was as Gary was talking about, This was a meeting and letting and letting this space evolving creat a moment where we could say, Okay, we've we've reached what we want to do in this direction. Live improv stuff happens sometimes, right. Luckily, the two performers that I was working with here are professionals to the highest degree, and we were able to get somewhere very far, very quickly.
It's really a remarkable moment when it happens.
Absolutely absolutely anyone else want to jump in there and tell us about kind of that again, that recording process.
Yeah, well, on the technical side, yeah, we kind of you know, did a kind of prep in a way based on what we had, including you know, prepping the producer, and sort of worked with each other in terms of, you know, what was sounding good, what we liked. After that process, I sat with Orient and created the the the the piece, the string of of the the LP and then went out to Greg and and Gary and a lot of the ideas we had didn't quite make it to the with the with in terms of the
mixing and so forth. Okay, we spent about six hours mixing and doing it together and then Gary worked on it bringing those other ideas and Gary's son even and fed it back and we fed it back. So that's the kind of you know, process, collaborative process that that happens with it. So so yeah, so that's in the technical aspect of it. Where do you go from here
here to there? So if people are listening, they don't think you just jump in a studio and you know that happens here is laid out that we are accustomed to.
But I also feel it's like, I don't know, like an Olympic diver or something, they only get they get one dive or.
Whatever, like the dive they go.
But all that leads up to the moment where they jump off and have to work with what's happening. They've been preparing for that sort of improvisational moment in a way, right, so that it's all of that stuff has informed that moment, in that exhilaration of the moment, which is why sometimes you can walk into a studio and just feel that you're just ready and you're you know, your nerves are tingling in the most alert way, and then and then things come together. But as Lilian said, then we were
able to work with it afterwards. I did some remixing, added multiple tracks on top, and worked with Or to add some like awesome, he's astounding producer, bass player, and he added some just really amazing tracks to it too, amazing baselines and things. So it's just kind of lovely mix of improvising, really feeling the moment, but also then being able to then shape it a little bit afterwards. So it was, yeah, it was kind of that's a
kind of an exciting process. Is many different modalities of improvising or of putting it together.
Yeah, I mean we actually basically after the improvisation, you basically got to create the pieces and the lens and that's what orin and I sat down and did for like six hours wow, before we sent the whole stuff to you guys that later got work time.
Absolutely, and it sounds like it was such a long, drawn out, stringed out process of just very meticulous step by step and yeah, before we kind of move on to the next part. I think, as someone that also does music too, there's such a like, I guess, they's such a part of what we do. That's the creative aspect, that is, so that's what you live for. But I almost want to say probably twenty percent is the creative aspect. The other eighty percent is the business side of things
at times? How did y'all, as you all three of you, you seem like very creative people, how did you kind of you know, someone had mentioned it earlier, the administration side, the business side, the crossing, the t's dotting, the i's How was that bringing that together with such an experimental but huge project that you put so much effort creativity into, and anyone can anyone can jump in there.
Well, I think that the whole process is about collaboration and how the music and the text and the improvising is about how we work together.
But similarly, how we were like it. I think everything is a model of what's possible.
So how we work together, how we organize things, who does want how we defer to other people who have to various people who have expertise or have you know, particular particular opinions or a particular way that they'd like to do things.
That's part of the whole process.
It's not just we go in, we create that, we create the tracks, and then we walk away and say, Okay, that's we Actually, I think part of the process and that's something that's satisfying working with collaborators is being able to the depth of sensitive collaboration goes all the way through, including like Lilian would say, have you guys read this contract? Have you ever done this before? I actually no, We've
never done this before. We have no idea, So like that kind of like for whatever that kind of stuff or we're getting like or like some audio stuff where I'm like, I'm approving some of the tracks, the kind.
Of the audio quality in terms of the reproduction.
Like so that I've caught expertise and various people have different we have a lot of expertise in different ways, and so working together that I mean that's that's fun and and and inspiring that we can come together to make this happen.
We got to work with two different publishing outfits through this. I mean there's the The Exile, which has done the book, and then the Siron Recordings, which has done the record, And so there was a lot of different different dynamics that came into play when we're dealing with these two groups, because they've got very different approaches and very different ethos.
It was it was amazing to me that they never came into conflict even though they're doing very different things, that they were able to recognize the uniqueness of this project that has a book and it has a record done by two different companies, and there's a synergy there that's that feeds into the excitement for both projects. In other words, at the when the when we were doing the book launch, they were promoting the record, and at the could launch they were quoting.
The book and happy to do something.
It's funny to me because when we originally started working on this, we approached it as a record and we were we knew we were going to have liner notes because we're writers, and there was a written quality to what we were doing. But that liner notes grew and grew and that and it became the standalone book called mother Tome.
And then just sort of go back to the business side again and I, you know, to bring us back. So for example, the recording right in, the best quality recording you can get in Canada with you know, with my mind or in you know, or in we basically worked with or in and in or in studio without a financial cost to us. Yeah, it's it's it's it's it's like a trade of friendship. You know, I work with or in figures from he was a youth, et cetera. So that's the kind of thing that is in the album.
It hidden resources and hidden and I wanted to point that out because that is a black community contribution. Yeah, that's really important that that grounded the entire project and even the idea that you know, let's do this album was because Orn was there and and and so it's sprung from there and as great kind of outline.
How you know, that's interesting, Leanne when I think about it now, there's I certainly have learned learned some things about like black community things from from well your practice as a as a always but also in this project. But I also see that as part of like the avant garde is also kind of can be kind of a gift community space where the reason things are possible are because people are generous and are part of a community.
And that that that is something Actually.
I hadn't ever thought of that till you, till you were speaking about that, that it wouldn't have been that many things are not possible except that people want to make them so and support their own community like they're so. Absolutely I see. And it's a tremendous gift that Orrin, who is you know, a major producer, was was able to gift his studio and his expertise. But I just see, I just see a lot of this isn't a good,
profoundly not capitalistic project, you know. So it will sell tens of millions of copies, just look look out, Taylor Swift. But just in terms of the spirit of it, I mean, in terms of how we can you know, contribute and work in community and to support it in those ways.
Absolutely absolutely no, such a beautiful, beautiful statements to being able to witness that is such an amazing thing. So Lillian as poet Laurette of Toronto and a pioneer of dub poetry. Tell me, how do you see Mother Tongue continuing or breaking open maybe the traditions of spoken and sonic poetics.
Hey, well, first of all, bam, bam bam. First of all, you know, the poetry for me is the literary side of the political activism. So my life is about transformation, right, So as I work with Gary and Greg, my hope is that it will usher in an era of collaboration, cross cultural collaboration with allies and and that because when my first came out, Revolutionary Tea Party, if you look,
it was a collaborative thing. And after that, Before that, there's none or maybe one or two people collaborating in the music environment. But after that people started to collaborate and work together and record together. And this is actually my hope. I haven't spoken to Gary and Greg about it, but that's my hope that it will open up that era where people can start now working across cultural lines, working, you know, as I say, with allies, or trying it out,
risking it when it feels safe to do that. You know, I forget your question, Oh where where it will? Where it will go? So asserting that possibility and showing that that's possible. I've gotten so much good reaction from this book. It passed on to students in the Stopped Me All the Time vote, from the conversation, the trialogue, and they haven't even yet listened to the recording. So I think they're going to be blown when they get to the recording.
So you know, it cleared a new space. I had some of the older Canadian poets, because you know, I've got the sage in Canadian poets who came to our launch and you know they made a point to phone me up and to tell me how this, you know, opened up a new state, was moving. It was you know, important to them, and you know, it's the best thing that they did. They were so glad they came out, and just a lot of good feeling. And I think it's it speaks to years and years and years of
the work that we've done. I mean the gravity of it and also the visionary sensibility and ideas that we bring to it, that there's something out there, there's something we're asserting that we need to swim into, and it's you know, we're pulling things. It's menu you know, we don't care about the meal. Yet we're just swimming out there. We're swimming away from, you know, whatever is holding us down. So there's something beyond language. There's something before it, and
there's something beyond it. And we're saying, you know, we have disagreement in society what language is and what registers different registers, and what it means. We're saying, you know, you know, that's all tied to social stratus and educational background and cultures, and we want to break that up, break into that, break that up as part of how we want transform the world. As Gary was saying, how we want to open up the space for us to meet.
We are rebels and basically but we're rebels in our own way is going on, and major transformation don't happen, you know, societal transformation in just one community. There is a space where the collaboration happens, and and that's this is this is a kind of creative space I'm trying to create and I think, you know, this is a space. This is a space, and we're just working with it and where we will go it's on our we're creative people.
So we have faith that language or voices can open up these spaces and do it in a beautiful way that embraces a lot of great things.
Absolutely, absolutely, thank you so much for that, Lilian. Now, Gary, you've written across genres, from novels to multimedia art. Now tell us how does your background in music, in your sense of just play and language, how does that feed into a project like this.
You know, one of the things that I think that I get from well, one of the things I get from music is exactly this kind of collaborative, improvisational thing. I mean, that's something that you make music with other people. You you you work in in various kinds of in various kind.
Of groups, in in.
Creating the music and performing it, in recording it, in you know, all all of that. So that that's definitely that's definitely something and in multimedia work as well. I also think in terms of and also in terms of music, thinking about the kind of the the embodied tactility, Like you make a note, you make a sound on an instrument, and then that sound relates. It's how that that the tangible physicality, palpability of that sound.
You know, it suggests the next one.
And so you go on and I feel I bring that for me, I bring that to writing and to this project was very much about that, just really feeling the the the vibe, the physicality of you know, each thing, and then as it goes on, whether or not it conforms to standard grammar or standard harmony or whatever you it, you one thing leads to another just by really, you know,
being informed. If you practice a lot, you think about things a lot, but it's also but at the at the moment of creating the sound, you then follow it in a in a really uh embodied and kind of
tactile way. And so similarly, I mean, I think I go about writing all my writing like that, whether I'm writing a novel or whether I'm doing like an experimental video, I'm really thinking about out like at each space I'm looking at, I can go in any direction, which direction feels the most energetic, the most alive, and then I just then I go there. And that felt like we were very thoughtful and careful about this project, but we also were open to going in any direction that felt
that felt right to all of us. And I love that sense of just exploration, right we don't we didn't we didn't say this is what this thing is going to be.
We didn't start out with that.
We said, what, you know, what could what could happen when we work together and pay close attention and really feel the vibe?
Right, absolutely, absolutely, thank you so much for that. Gary, And now Gregory, your work often pushes into experimental and avant garde spaces. Now, how did you bring that type of sensibility into you know, really into conversation with the more dub and more lyric traditions here.
I guess I never felt an opposite between them.
We're trying to we're kind of pushed and.
Trained to think about silos and create a work that doesn't cross over those boundaries. But I mean, when I was starting out as a as a young writer in Toronto, Lillian was right there, welcoming me into spaces, organizing readings, connecting me with I mean, one of my first readings was with Debbie Young anat to Africa, and you know, really remarkable moments that let me see commonalities where other people saw division. We actually we organized a really important event.
This is almost twenty years ago now, two thousand and six. We did an event called Scream in the Square, which was a concerted effort to break down those boundaries between an avant garde and a dub community. We Lilian performed, Halldutton,
the Sound Pot performed, Gary and I performed. In fact, there was one moment we were wearing weird masks so I couldn't with low visibility, But there was one moment where a fellow from the from the audience came up and started slithering on the steps leading to the stage in time to the music as a kind of performative dance, which inspired Lillian to get up and start performing with
us in that moment. Going back, you know, nineteen years, So our history is long, our connections are strong, and there is a sense in my heart that that the divisions aren't as strong as people might like them to be. You know, there's there's there's a lot of there's a lot of desire to keep people separated, and when we embark on a creative venture, we can actually find out that we have a lot to learn from each other and speak to each other and things that things that
allow us to meet. So my practice, you know, as a as a writer, as a scholar, as an event organizer, has always been about finding places that need to be opened up and explored and remembered and pushed. So what better colleagues could I have even dreamed of than Gary and Lillian in that kind of effort in pursuit.
Absolutely absolutely, well, thank you all for that. And now just kind of tell me, I mean, how what was the whole in totality? How long did it take together for all three of you? How long did this How long was the process to get this final product of Mother Tongue as the LP? What was the timeline?
Like, well, I guess in a way it started in two thousand and six when we first started collaborating. I mean we did we did stage shows in twenty fifteen and twenty sixteen together in twenty seventeen, which created a kind of synergy events in events in Saint Catherine's in particular, when we got to the studio. Is that twenty nineteen that you're in the studio in oron.
Isaacs something like that.
Yeah, And so you know we're talking extended over over a lot of years, wow.
Bumming it into yeah, Wow, now that is I mean so even really the seeds of it two thousand and six, so that is almost twenty years.
Wow.
That is that is definitely a labor fruits of labor. But you're now seeing I mean, and I'm sure that the climb, the process of this was the fruits of labor for you all as well. And then now tell me a bit about I mean, I guess you know someone you know people listening to this podcast as they hear you all talk. I mean, what, let's say you have folks out here you know this is collaboration is something a lot of people want to do, but I feel like they they're scared to maybe reach across that table.
You have made mention. You know, these kind of silos of creativity, they're not as pronounced as we think they are. People have creative outlets but also creative similarities. I mean, what would you what would you all advice be for people that want to begin that they want to make something like this, They want to collaborate, you know, create
something of a nature that is across different mediums. How do you suggest people even begin that creative process of reaching across the table to find collaborators.
You know I've written I can't remember, I've written like eight or nine books collaboratively.
Greg and I have done well done a couple of books.
And I really love obviously I really love collaborating and part and part of that is two things.
One is just to trust the process.
So it's not what I necessarily expect is going to happen, but trust that together will follow, the writing will follow the process. And sometimes it's like that's not what I think at all, that doesn't seem very good, Like that person did something that I don't get that I saw what I wanted, and it's like, oh, relax, trust the process.
We will work as.
We integrate that new idea and it's a different and you know, we gradually work towards developing this idea and being open to that. When two people or three people or multiple people get together to collaborate, it goes in many unexpected directions, and that, in fact, is the point rather than Okay, I just need somebody to help me do the thing like that, that's not what it is.
It's about that.
Kind of mind meld where you go off in unexpected directions and you trust that process. So I think the most important thing is that you find people that you can just trust that even if you know, even if at times you think that what they've what they've contributed doesn't seem like it's what you wanted, trusting that in fact, it will reveal itself as to why that is integrally.
Part of the process.
So to me that I think that's part of it and then have kind of and then enjoy that process and enjoy the kind of back and forthedness and changedness. And also it's so getting outside of your own go just trusting the work, like it's not about you, it's about what the work, what work is happening before you.
So and I think, to me, that's incredibly liberating. It's like I get a I get a holiday from myself and I'm just absorbed in the writing and I'm I'm also not kind of responsible for the work as but but rather i'm I'm or so that I that I can I can think this isn't just me, this is us together, and so it sort of frees me up and then I'm really proud of what we do together.
So I think I think that's the most important. And that's often against the idea of like the great writer sits there and the muse comes to them and they have their own unique particular idea that nobody else can have. Actually, the process where you just all together you you make something it's not about you are your own news is together and that's that's really cool. And if you just kind of open to open to what happens to me,
that's the most important thing. And trusting that there's people who are like minded in that and at least with regard to the process.
Absolutely absolutely love that, love that absolutely so.
What I learned in terms of collaboration, and I learned that from you know, we're farming groups and so forth, is have something that you own and you love. I'm a tyrant when it comes to my individual writing process, and therefore I'm able to hand over as Gary is so apply described there to a collective process. But I find that people who don't really have a solid thing that they control, that it's harder. That's been my experience in the past. But when yeah, so you know, I've
got my thing that I know it's definitely me. I'm easy. I'm ready now to let it be our collective thing for sure.
Absolutely absolutely love that, love that, love those perspectives, And thank you all so much for sharing that. As we're kind of wrapping up here, I mean, you know, we do we want more people to listen to this sonic poetry. But I guess you know, how would you recommend they enter muttered tongue? I mean, is it a headphone experience, a performance, uh meditation of the senses, or something else entirely?
How do you really, how do you all, as the creators of it, how do you suggest and recommend people really enter into this experience of poeticness?
Can we improvise that answer?
Of course?
Can we just and then just speak it up from there? How do we enter?
Come?
Listen, right, let's do something that will so people, can you know.
Here here what it is? Yeah?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But.
Pause, do you have me?
Yeah? Welcome, this can come on?
Yeh yeah.
Oh what did you do?
Did you want?
Oh?
Yump jump? Yeah yeah yeah yeah.
Yeah Africa, Okay, all right, there we go. I love it, love it.
I love that. Love that. No, that really right there, that is the work. That really is the work. And the fact that all three of you, now if everyone listening, you know, we're we're literally zooming in in different places. All three of these people really destined to collapse together to be able to do that over zoom. I really really love and appreciate that. So there we go. That's the best experience for this, for this peace, for this work correct.
The one reviewers said it nicely. They said they listened to it and then they read it and they thought that was great. I think what you have to do is you have to come out to a to a show, listen to it, read the book, talk to us, and then the best experience that you can get out of this record if you make your own record.
In response, just walk around the house being you know, out in the sounds.
Yeah, the language.
Yeah, a variety of boys are we love it. We love and really appreciate y'all really bringing your best selves to this podcast today. Now we have one final question. We ask everyone that is on the Poet Speaks podcast, and we'll start with you Lilian, then we'll go Gary, then Gregory. Why do you need to get your words out?
Well, I mean I need to get it out of me for one, which is because there's so many words and so many things that need vocalization, and you know, coming through the centrist from the ancestors, and they need to get it into the pool of sounds and knowledges that we have in the world. My words are embodied, you know, I was validated by listening to reading books and poetry. I was inspired, I was in choose. I found community. I found deep, deep, deep, deep pleasure and
much more. And I hope too. That's what I want to do. I want to get the word out. People love words, you know, they they love stories, they love poetry, they love performances, and you know, that's what we're about. Relationality, connections, building community, feeling great and that our lives are essentially really meaningful and important. So yeah, that's me.
I'm you know, I love the idea about relationality.
I was trying to think about because that is a really it's a really profound question and in a way, I have one hundred answers and I have no answers to the question. Uh, I mean, why do I look at things? Why do I listen to things? It's just they're there and I can't. That's what the words and making stuff up, being creative, that's just part of what it is to interact in the world and to be in and to receive the world is to speak to
it and speak to other people. So that whole Yeah, relationality being this and responding and responding to responding to the world and as and and to kind of also sort of surf the flow of words that they're just there, they're kind of furst thing out sort of to follow through that.
That's what it feels like. I want to I am just part of that.
It's not it's not even a it's just as part of my basic modality of being in the world.
I guess, absolutely, you get excited.
I mean, I have these moments where I'm reading things, I'm discovering things, I'm finding things that's just really rich, beautiful thinking and what and often that's not my own that's just you know, things that I found in the world. But it draws me, It pulls me in and in it brings.
Stuff out of me.
You know.
As a result, I get deeply inspired by the work of other people and I love I love engaging with it, and I feel just compelled and drawn to share in the excitement of the beautiful thinking. And maybe maybe I make my own contributions in some small way, But it's really about participating in the in the sharing of the the edge that we found in the worlds that we've uncovered.
Yeah, perfect, absolutely, all right, y'all. That's it. That's why they need to get their words out and again everyone please go check out Muttered Tongue, you know, quickly before we end Lily and Gary Gregory, please do tell us where we can find your work, where we can find any social media websites, as well as where folks can find Mother Tongue the LP. If we can start with Lily and then we go Gary Gregory, please give drop any socials websites, any places we can find more of your amazing work.
Uh, Lilian Allen dot ca a Lilian Allen dubbed social media you know Google search. It should be all over the entry bookstores.
Yeah so yeah, so I Mother Tongue specifically is it's on band camp if you just look up Mother Tongue you'll find it. It's on Spotify and Apple and a bunch of streaming places. It's put out by Siren Records, so you can go to their website. There's going to be actual LP is going to be pressed by them,
but the digital files are on on on streaming. The book is put out by Exile Editions, so you can Mother Tongue Exile Editions, and that's in bookstores, but you can also go to their website and you can search for as for my specific things. You can just search my name and I'm I'm just a mass all over the internet.
Thanks very much, absolutely, and I'm on Facebook.
I'm still on Facebook. I'm also on Blue Sky. But the emails g bets brock you dot ca A, send me an email. Let's let's chat. Happy to happy to meet with people.
And we are we and we come to classrooms. So the easiest way to find us is.
To bring us and we'll be there, perfect, perfect, all right. Well, again, a big thank you Lily and Gary Gregory. Everyone. Links for Muttered Tongue will be down below detailed description box below. Again, thank you all three of you for displaying your amazing work and just being great. We really appreciate this interview today.
Thanks so much to participate.
Absolutely, absolutely, and everyone again check out the Poet Speaks podcast. No matter where you listen to your podcast, we are literally streaming everywhere, all right. Viral one