Welcome to the Play Based Learning Podcast. I'm your host, Kristen Arby Peterson, and maybe your new teacher, Bestie, that is here to hype you up, maybe give you a motivating kick in the pants, and teach you all I know about play and childhood. I am here to help you challenge old and outdated practices and inspire you to create a truly developmentally appropriate early childhood environment that fosters creativity, passion, Curiosity and joy in the children that you care for.
Let's set the stage for a lifelong love of learning. Let's get going. have Jasmine Moses with me on the Play Based Learning Podcast today. Jasmine is the founder of Anti Bias ECE, and we're here to have a big ol conversation all about anti bias education, what that means, um, what we can do. And, um, I'm excited to have, I'm excited to have you here, Jasmine, to, to tell us all of the things in your brain. So welcome. I'm excited to be here. So hi everyone. I'm listening.
My name is Dr. Jasmine Moses, and I am an anti bias early childhood educator. Um, it's great to be here with you today. I'm so excited. Um, I consider myself to have a few different lenses within ECE. A lot of my interest research and work is centered around anti bias and anti racist practices in early childhood. Um, really trying to, and trying to make others right. Take a critical look, um, at making the ECE field more. are equitable for all children. And I'm passionate about early childhood.
My love for it runs deep. I began my journey as a preschool teacher, which sometimes feels like a long time ago, especially when, like, you know, it's back to school season for some, and those children are, like, way older than they were when I had them at three and four, so.
Absolutely. And that I've been, uh, kind of grappling with here, but, um, I received my undergraduate degree and it was centered around teacher preparation and, you know, giving me my teacher's license and getting me into that classroom. But as I taught, I then got my master's, which was centered around early childhood, but a focus and advocacy leadership and policy. Okay. That was different, right?
So that kind of transitioned just the way that I was viewing early childhood into more of a, I think more focused on community work within ECE. Um, and then that continued while I pursued my doctorate. So I am now an early childhood community worker and consultant. Um, I love children. I love their families. That's just, you know, one, two things about me, right? I love children. I, um, love their families. I love people. And I really believe in.
The transformative power of early childhood education. Um, I'm also a toddler mom, so. Yay! That's a fun stage. Gosh, I know. And it's like I'm getting to see the things that I would read in books, like in real time. Yeah. And I kind of grapple with when I say that because I think like, in the classroom I felt the same way, but You know, at the end of the day, they go home with their families, right?
And the families have the work of like, uh, making sure that this tiny human is a polished human in every other area. And now, I'm also doing that work. So, um, I tell people like, I frequently think about the parents that I had, and I'm just like, I should have taken more care of them as they were navigating threes and fours. Yeah. So it's one of those things because it's just, it is a wild time, but it's also the best time.
But it's, you know, great to be able to watch this happening and to be able to apply. A lot of the things that I've learned, um, with my work with her. So, yeah. Okay. So tell me how, tell me why you decided, like, what's the story behind anti bias ECE, the, your Instagram account. Why did you start that? And what are your, like, hopes for it?
Yeah, so for my dissertation work, I did a lot of research and thought around this idea of anti bias education and how it's still showing up within schools within classrooms and what it actually looks like. So, yeah. A really critical look at how practicing teachers were still incorporating these things that kind of like different age groups, right? So what does it look like for a preschool teacher? What does it look like for an elementary school teacher?
And what something that really came out of that work was the idea that teachers really want something that's actionable. Um, when we put out steps of how to incorporate this, they're like, oh my gosh, like, I would love to be able to do all of this, but what does it look like for me, uh, in the midst of all of this? These different, um, transitions, what does it look like for me in the, in the day? Like, what does this actually, um, look like?
And so that's kind of the idea behind the anti bias ECE. Um, and not just for teachers, but for, you know, families too. I'm really trying to make this actionable so that we can find ways to incorporate this into our everyday lives because It's not something that's its own entity. Yeah. It's something that should be kind of the underpinnings of everything that we do. And so I Absolutely, yeah.
Yeah. Sometimes I think it's a, you know, having those actionable steps makes us feel more empowered to be able to go out and do this and, and do work this way with children and see how it works. So that's kind of the idea, um, behind the anti-bias, ECE, and. I've always wanted to work in early childhood. I knew from a very young age that I wanted to be like some sort of kindergarten teacher. Yeah. Kindergarten teacher was the coolest, and so I know same.
And so I just, I held onto that and as I went through the work that it took to become a teacher and I learned more, I realized that we have to really. think about the practices that we have in the field. Something that I'm thinking about a lot is that early childhood can't just be for some, it has to be for all of us. The experience, beauty, and wonder of early childhood can't just be based in some children's experiences. be accessible and based for everyone.
And so when we start to think about these biases that we have, and maybe even these practices that kind of go back even before us, right, you have to continue to rethink this and continue to dismantle. These systems that have been built up within the field, and that's another kind of layer to the anti bias. You see, and a lot of the work that I'm doing and my consultant company equity in bloom, and it's, it's really just trying to take a more critical look at a lot of practices that we have.
With an ECE. So, okay, so let's back up just a teeny bit and let, I would love to hear you define, um, what is anti bias education? Like, what does that mean? What does it look like for anybody out there who this is like a new, like a new topic for them that they're listening in on? Yeah, so, um, you can start by thinking that anti bias is an active approach, um, and that it actually has four main goals.
So when we're thinking about anti bias education, this work is the work of Louise Dermons Sparks, Julie Edwards, Katherine Goins, If you would like to, you know, learn more and take a more, a deeper dive into the book, um, it's called Anti Bias Education for Young Children and Ourselves, um, by Louise Derman Sparks. Julia, where's Catherine going? So four main goals that they've created, um, and connected to NAEYC, So it's first look taking a look at identity. It's taking a look at diversity.
It's taking a look at justice and then it's taking a look at activism and those are what this work is rooted in. So kind of to that textbook definition that they give. I always like to say that it's important for teachers to know that The end caregivers and everyone to know that this is kind of a collective work. So it's not just one person's job to be enacting these things, um, to make, to make sure that we're operating in an anti bias framework. We need to have the buy in from teachers.
We need to have buy in from families and from children, right? Make sure that we're all working together. Um, and it's important for us to know too, that this is not something we're just helping children through, that it takes us to unpack our own biases around things and to continue to commit to learning and growing because that's so important too. Um, and I also like to tell folks that it's not just one, a one time thing. It's a continuous journey. Um, It's not a one stop destination.
There's always something new to learn, discover, um, and the important thing within an anti bias framework, or one of the important things, right. That I'm holding onto. Cause I think people will tell you different things, which is great. Um, but one of the things is you should never stop learning. You should always be open, um, to Learning more to unlearning some to reflect, learn again. It's a continuous cycle.
Um, and that's, and I should have mentioned this before, but that's another thing that I'm hoping that folks get from learning to unlearning. Some of the work that I'm doing is that I want you to come and know that like, I'm gonna shake you up a little bit sometimes, right? I love that! I do that too! And I love how you said shake you up a little bit. This work is going to really make us uncomfortable, right? Kind of trying to rethink a lot of the things that we maybe thought were true.
Um, or maybe, uh, something that I've been seeing a lot from, uh, Keisa Marx is saying, like, you know, saying that quiet piece out loud. Right. And a lot of folks aren't ready or not, you know, I think they are ready, but they don't necessarily know that they're ready to kind of have these big conversations. Um, and so I. I want folks to know that, you know, in the, when you're learning something, unlearning is also important. That reflection piece is critical as well. Oh my gosh, so important.
Okay, so let's back up to the four. Um. Four things that you listed as being included in anti bias education. And can you touch a little bit on each of those and maybe give us some examples about what each of those would look like? Yeah. Um, so I think this idea of identity is really coming to understand, for children to come to understand, um, who they are. Okay. Um, you know, who are the people around them, kind of getting this idea of where they situate within the world.
Um, The idea of diverse and these are kind of how, you know, I interpret it and how I work through. So I think folks might have different perspectives of it. And this is kind of how I'm the quick way of how I'm explaining it. So diversity is kind of coming to understand that, you know, there are different people, right? So kind of moving outward. There are different people.
Um, there are, you know, um, Different ways that people are within this world and coming to understand them and see that and then this, the goals three and four are some that I think are sometimes forgotten about and some that I'm continuously grappling with in terms of. What does justice look like for this? And like, how can we get there? And what does taking action look like? And so those are what those, um, goals three and four are kind of centered around.
And I think that as we come to understand, you know, That we're all different, right? And it's okay. We then have to look at the systems and the things that are happening around us that we need to fix or change or create new ones so that we can reach this justice space. And what does that action kind of look like? So those are kind of the ways that I've tried to center those goals for folks recently. Okay. So now.
Can you tell me a little bit about how parents of young children, or children, and or educators of children in general, like all ages of children, and maybe it looks different for different people, but in general, how can we identify our own biases? when we interact with children? Yeah, of course. So, um, once again, like I'm leaning really into this idea that as we learn, we absorb new knowledge. Um, and so But there's also that level of unlearning, right? That has to happen.
Yes, I move into this cycle. And I think that when we are in this cycle, that's when growth is happening and growth is powerful. So I would suggest first and foremost, that reflection on your own experiences here is key. Um, and it's crucial for this work, um, and I've been thinking a lot about this and I think that that's kind of the beginning. So, um, take a moment and really think of, or not just one moment, multiple moments, right?
Let me reiterate, not just one time, just one, not just one guy to kid is a continuous cycle, right? Um, think about like who you are and where you situate within the world. So some like ideas could be like, what was your upbringing like? Right. What were the messages you received? Um, how do these things impact you today? Um, and what does that look like? And so then I think from that point, you kind of begin to understand who you are. Then you need to seek out some Diverse perspectives, right?
So following maybe some different accounts on Instagram, like if you're a social media person following and seeing like what people are doing around this work, what does this look like kind of honing in on voices other than your own and other other than, you know, maybe what you're accustomed to and what you've Grown up listening to or different things like that really trying to bring in these diverse perspectives and then also engaging in conversations with folks that challenge
your usual way of thinking right and shying away from those conversations. Um, this one might be a little tricky for folks but practicing active listening. Not just with adults, but with children. Right. So kind of where I'm coming from this is that as adults, we spend a lot, or as humans, we spend a lot of time talking and we spend a lot of time listening to respond instead of actually listening to hear what someone is actually saying. Okay. Yeah. I'm encouraging people to.
listen whole, like wholly, so that you can actually understand what someone is saying. And then you can create that space to build general, genuine connections with folks and learning something new. If you're all, if someone's telling you something and you're constantly like, okay, but what about this? Okay. But what about this? Okay. But I think you're not necessarily listening to what they're saying. So how can you ever think that you would come out with a different perspective if all you did.
In the conversation was tell your side and maybe there is a space for that there could be, but I think that it takes this mutual kind of creating creation of space where all people in the conversation are able to have a say. And another thing that I like to. Kind of throw in there because you know, you'll frequently hear me say like adults are not always right and we need to listen to children for and that really like it really gets people's gears in gear sometime. Oh, yeah.
But honoring children in the same way that we think about, you know, honoring adults perspectives. Sometimes that's a new thing for folks like they haven't. really spent the time to think about like what children are actually trying to say and what they're telling them and how much they could actually learn if they close their mouth for a second and listen to what the children around them were saying, um, especially within that early space. So my gosh, absolutely.
Yeah, I think those are a few of the ways that you can kind of start. And once again, it's like, you know, you're getting into that cycle of reflection. And then when you learn something more, you think about, okay, well, like, I didn't think about it that way. But, you know, why don't I think about it this way? And then I also tell folks that like, Reading is crucial, right?
Yes. One time I know you had an episode, um, from early at M love her doing your research, trying to find people who are also doing this research in the field, connecting with them so that you can start to break these things down and decipher them for yourself as well and come to your own understandings. I think it's super important too. Oh my gosh.
Yes. As you're speaking, um, I'm, I'm drawing so many parallels between advocating for play based learning and then advocating for anti bias ECE or anti bias education. It's just, it's, it's like the same things. It's like you have to reflect, you have to unlearn, you have to be willing to get uncomfortable, you have to listen to the children, you have to really observe. and be an active listener to all that's happening around you.
So with that, how, because I'm the Play Based Learning podcast, right? How does anti bias education and play based learning fit together in your opinion? Yeah, so I think it's the foundation of this work, right? Like, it all connects. Yes, I was, like, all of those wheels are turning in my head and there's so many connections being made. And I'm just like, I mean, play really is, like, one of the best ways to be able to, like, see everybody as an individual. And, uh, yeah, this is gold.
Okay, so keep going. Yeah, no play. Um, and we only think about playing like kind of just giving a space for children just to be right and how they're interacting with other children. So you're, you're giving them well you're not giving them but you're creating right that space to think about. Creating, exploring, and even reflecting on their own identities and maybe the identities of the people around them, right? So play gives children a chance to just be who they are.
And through that, those conversations are happening. So that goes back to that listening piece that we talk about. And play is a space where children can practice their social skills, right? And then also, I think that play as a space for children and adults collectively as co constructors of knowledge, um, can think about and challenge bias, right? So if you hear as a teacher, you know, you're supposed to be listening in on the play, right?
Observing, like seeing what children are doing, not, not getting in it. I am giving them some space to kind of do their own thing, but you're still as a teacher, you're supposed to be actively thinking, listening, those wheels are turning, right? As you watch children in their natural way.
Um, and so I think some of these conversations come up within that timeframe and really thinking about how You know, we can we can interpret that for ourselves and then how we can help Children to then challenge those biases that might come out. And I think we see that in. A lot of different things. One of the biggest examples that I think probably happened in, like, maybe every, well, I won't say every, but most preschool classrooms is like, oh, like, you know, you're a boy, right?
You can't play this. Or you're a boy. You can't play that. So really like having these conversations with children about and breaking down these biases right then and there, or having a classroom collective meeting and having a conversation and really bringing them into the conversation. So, or just kind of as a matter of fact, and we might talk about this later, but a lot of times I suggest more so calling folks in instead of calling them out. So tell me more.
Yeah, really, simply put, really getting curious about why folks are thinking whatever messaging they're bringing and kind of having an open conversation where it's not just like, well, you shouldn't have done this. It's more so like inviting them into the conversation so that we can come to new knowledge together, having that collective piece together.
So, um, And that's kind of, I've been hearing that a lot within the ECE field and with people who work with children and adults, and I really like that idea of calling folks in instead of calling them out because when we call people out, they freeze. They do the goal of this is growth and for us to come away with new understanding and new knowledge. You don't always want people to freeze, right? Because then that that growth is not happening.
Now, sometimes I think there might be maybe some space to call out depending on what it is. But I think with children, it's there's always a space to call in. And there's always a space to call in to really have us have these conversations, which we'd say are really important and providing a space for that. Okay. So if you were to, if you were speaking in front of a group of educators and you didn't want to call out, what, how do you call in? Like, what's an example of that?
What does it sound like? I think it depends on what's happening in the situation. But if somebody maybe shares a statement or something that. You know, you see like the uncomfortable, like uncomfortable kind of movements happening in the crowd or the uncomfortable, like you can kind of, yeah, happening. But I think I would get curious about what they said or why they said it. And so I can maybe ask them, like, can you explain more about this? Or can you give me your perspective about this?
And then we can, that kind of opens up the conversation into, you know, Maybe me giving a perspective after they've shared their piece or other folks coming together. What we're calling in, we really want to make sure that we're thinking about, I think, this idea of I'm trying to figure out how to word it. We want to really think about this idea of the community in a sense of like allowing other folks to kind of give their perspectives too. So then it gets into more of a community conversation.
Um, if it's just kind of a one on one thing that's happening, then I think I would still start with getting curious about what makes you think that or what. Can you give elaborate more for me? Um, on what that is and really saying like, you know, I'm, I'm curious about this because I want to learn more and setting that stage for the group, I think is important. That's great. I'm curious about this. Cause I want to learn more. I love that.
Okay. So what are, do you have any like practical strategies, tips that people can take away from this podcast and implement in their time with children tomorrow? I do. So I think The first thing I said, um, earlier was just read, read, read. So there are so many books out there for not just adults, uh, but for children.
A few of the ones that I've, um, been kind of talking about as I've been on this podcast tour, um, just kind of, uh, social justice parenting by Dr. Tracy Baxley, um, raising anti racist children by Brit Hawthorne. And I want to preface those because I think a lot of times when people hear the titles. They're like, Oh, well, I'm not a parent or like, I don't have kids of my own. That's fine. I think a lot of these things translate over the work that we do within the classroom.
So I want people to know, like pick the book up still books up still, um, of course we talked about anti bias education for young children and ourselves. And then there are a few other ones that I've been reading recently by Tiffany jewel that are great. Um, First one and I think it's meant to be a guide. It's a guide for everyone but it's written in a way that I think like older children can kind of read it and engage with it too.
Um, it's called This Book is Anti Racist and it really broke down like a lot of It really got to me to thinking like I was taking so many notes as I was reading. Oh. I'm just like, oh, this is great. And then another one, um, that I just finished reading is everything I learned about racism I learned in school. Oh, amazing. Okay, good. It really got me to thinking about.
Systems and all of the experiences that you maybe had in school or things that you've heard, um, and thinking critically about it as an adult and really trying to think about how we can change that for the Children that we serve. And one of the things that, and please read the book, but one of the things that I took away from it was that she had a lot of folks come and write essays about their experiences in schools.
And teachers, uh, were one of the main Like, I'm trying to think of the right word, but teachers were like kind of a main area of focus for these people who wrote, um, their stories. And I think it just spoke to the power that teachers have within the classroom and the effect that they have on people's experiences.
So. That's something, um, to really consider as you go back into your classroom, uh, it's just the, you know, the biases that we have, the thoughts that we have, like they, we carry those with us and we have to make sure that we're thinking critically about that for children and with children. Um, and of course, reading for children too. So choosing diverse books, super important. Um, I have a full list, shameless plug of books that I asked. You know, kind of curating. So I can give that to you.
So you have it in the show notes, but just really thinking about the books that you're bringing in the messaging that you're, that you have. And, you know, the voices that you're choosing to uplift, um, I think is super important. Getting comfortable with being uncomfortable, I think is another one to consider.
Um, as you're thinking through how to incorporate this into your classrooms or into your spaces, uh, it's only through, well, I won't say only, but it's very much through discomfort that we grow. And so it's so true. Yeah. Getting curious and learning and thinking these things through, I think is super important. So. Okay, so now last. My last question is what advice do you have moving forward?
Um, and you might have already stated some of these like, be comfortable getting uncomfortable and whatnot. But any other advice that you have for those who are just beginning to incorporate some of these elements, these anti bias practices into their environments? That is a great question. Um, I think something that I've been sitting with is that someone is learning to be a human based on us. So we have to, and someone is learning how to function in society through us.
So it's a big responsibility. We owe it to our children. We owe it to our world to do our own work and to help them and to think this through. Um, so I think you can do this is another, uh, another piece of advice, uh, route into your community, keep learning, keep growing. And it's through our community that will grow. Yeah. Oh my goodness. This is gold. This is such great information. Where can people find more of you if they want to learn more from you?
So I love to keep the conversation going. Uh, follow me over at the anti bias ECE if anti bias education. And social justice are your jam. If you love the content shared here and want to chat, send me a message. Also get on my email list. I would love to have you. Um, I share tips. I share things that I'm reading. Um, I'm offering professional development and coaching, bring me to your schools. I'm there for you. Amazing. Okay. It was the pleasure having you here.
Um, and your message is so important and I am so happy that you said yes to being on the podcast and that we could make this happen. Um, everybody head on over to Instagram. Give jazz doctor. I should have said doctor at the beginning of this. Dr. Jasmine Moses. I apologize for that, but go on over to Instagram, connect with her there, the anti bias ECE. Thank you so much for the work that you're doing for the early childhood community. And, um, I appreciate you and all that you're doing.
Thank you for having me. Of course. If you liked what you heard today, share this podcast with your coworkers, admin, or maybe even your partner. And I love getting five star reviews so more people can embrace play. Hit follow or subscribe so you never miss an episode. Or connect with me on Instagram or my website, KristenRBPeterson. com. Until next time.