Welcome to the Play Based Learning Podcast. I'm your host, Kristen Arby Peterson, and maybe your new teacher, Bestie, that is here to hype you up, maybe give you a motivating kick in the pants, and teach you all I know about play and childhood. I am here to help you challenge old and outdated practices and inspire you to create a truly developmentally appropriate early childhood environment that fosters creativity, passion, Curiosity and joy in the children that you care for.
Let's set the stage for a lifelong love of learning. Let's get going. Duterte is joining me for the Play Based Learning Podcast, and we are chatting all things autism today. Welcome back. Hello, how are you? I'm very excited. I'm so excited too. So I'm going to just kind of give you a little background on why I thought it was important to have you on. So I had a program, I was the founder of a play in nature based preschool in Minnesota and we had children ages three, four, and five.
And we had a very, a staff that was not, we didn't have any teachers who had any sort of background or training or special education background as far as schooling. And. Therefore, when we had kiddos who would come in who were maybe undiagnosed with anything, and we just, you know, there's like signs and there's things that we look for. And like, you know, there's, there was things that we could kind of see, but we obviously can't diagnose anyone.
So it's trying to like tippy toe with the parents because a lot of times parents don't even know these things. Because like, if it is Their new parents, it might be their first born child. That's all they've had experience with. So they don't know that like, Hey, we can probably be getting your child a little bit more support here. And whatnot.
So we're always in this like sticky situation where We could kind of see that maybe that child needed a little bit more support than what we could offer, but it was really hard to have those conversations with the parents. So maybe we can chat a little bit about that today. Uh, do you mind if I cut you off and talk about that? Absolutely, please do! Okay, I do not think your school is the only place.
What I am finding, so I have 90 pages of just voices and stories, 300 teachers or so have answered it. Nobody has any education on this. And we all, God forbid we tell parents that we don't have any information on it because then Administrative is like, what the hell? Of course, you know, you can't. And they get mad at us for trying to talk to the parents about it. But we should. Yeah. So, yes. Anyways. Yeah. More should be talked about and open. Yeah. Absolutely.
Okay. Maybe, can you give us a little background on yourself and, cause I was reading a little bit on your Instagram. I came across the post and you were, it was just a vulnerable, this is me, but this page isn't about me type of post. Um, and in that post, you said that you, um, And I didn't read it fully, so I don't know what age you were diagnosed, um, but it did, you did mention that you were nonverbal until the age of three.
So would you be willing to share a little bit about your own personal story with us? Absolutely. Okay. Again, cut me off if I go on too soon. So I was diagnosed in my 30s. Okay. Believe it or not. But I had so, so many of these traits, like I was saying, I was non verbal, I would elope, I would, I had, I had, all my toys were lined up, like everything was, yep, yep, yep, that. But of course, my parents did not know, just like you were referring to, parents don't know.
And um, my mom always knew something was wrong. So I did get a lot of speech around three. And I remember back then it was like the 90s, so it wasn't like your speech now, gentle, nice, great. It was like, my mom would come back and be like, you better, you better talk to her. I'm paying all this money. Yeah. Nothing bad about my mom, but she was like, I'm paying all this money. Yeah. So, that happened. I started talking. I got diagnosed ADHD. Still. In elementary school.
And with that, I got a social disorder. Um, so really autism was the missing piece of it all. And had my parents known, had we known it would have been so much different, such a trajectory. And that's what I'm saying. Like early education is so necessary for the supports and just everything, but it's all hush hush because yeah. Why?
Yeah. I don't know if we said I'm a preschool teacher too, but yeah, so in the environments I have been in, or the, like, the data of teachers I'm getting, we're all, God forbid, we say we're not educated in this. Because that shows we're weak, we feel guilty and shame for not knowing. Yes, absolutely. I felt that. And it's not our fault. We want the best for our kids. We want all the information, but we don't have it.
And again, we can't say it to our bosses or anything because, you know, we might lose our jobs. Yeah. Yeah, so you just. Don't say anything, just keeping the pace, trying to get by. Um, so I think that's a huge, huge issue that you, myself, no one is alone in that. We all like, how do I get more information? And I also feel like I've worked with a lot of, um, autistic students and they come with like special ed speech, you know? Yeah. Occupational therapists.
And they all come in and outta my class. And even they are so overwhelmed with the burden and so I, what I see is they expect teachers to know and do our parts with the IEPs because they think we know. Yeah. But they don't, they know, they don't know that we don't know either, you know? I don't know much about IEP writing and stuff and it's, um, embarrassed to say it. But I'm sure I'm not the only one. You're not. I don't know how to write an IEP. And do you want to know? No! No!
I'd love to, one, help these children. Yes. And two, make the classroom flow better. Yes. Make my life easier, you know? So that was, that's one thing. I think these SPED teachers are like, the teacher, it's the teacher's role. And the teachers are saying, Hmm, it's more the SPED role. So it's sort of, and I don't think anyone's at fault, what I think and ought to ask is trying to come to is we need more outside help.
We can't put any loads on anyone else on these teams, you know, like, it's not up to us. We need someone from the outside, anyone else, to help us. Yeah, so like, who would those outside people be? Do you have ideas of who they would be? No, I would think, um, I would love to see more autistic people. Yes. Adults like in education. Um, I would love to see us have more education, like in, in our continuing education or the CDA or whatever your certification is. Autism is never discussed.
It's discussed just a little, but it's almost like it's wrong to talk about it. Yeah. And it's not, it's not like, I'm, I'm autistic. It's okay. I'm happy. And I wanted to circle back to something that you said because this might have been like a subconscious thing that you didn't even realize that you said, but you said something about how your mom is like, I know, like, my mom knew there was something wrong.
Yeah. Yeah. I just wanted to let you know that like, I don't feel that there's anything wrong with anyone who has neurodivergency. Like, I am a neurodivergent person, and I think that it makes us beautiful people. Oh, absolutely. I love that. Yeah. No, that's a good point. It was just different. Yeah. Different from what we were expecting. Yes, a little spicier. But yeah, so I, I'm with this survey. I'm just trying so hard to get this heard.
Um, if you don't mind, I will divulge into where I'm at now. Yes, please do, please. Um, a couple months ago I got a DM, I got, I got many DMs from people all over with like Harvard grads and like huge people and they're like, I love your work. How can I help? And I'm like, my work? It's the first time like I've, um, I'm seeing, I'm like, I guess it is my work. Yeah, you've got some work. You've got work. So this person was like, I do, I referenced your work in my thesis.
And I was like, Whoa. Oh, okay. And I see it. And sure enough, we did. But um, they also were like, I spoke about this in many White House meetings. I was like, What? Yeah, like Because AuthAsk is just me right now. Yeah. I have high hopes for it, but it's just me. Yeah. Yeah. So, I'm dumbfounded of how many people it seems to strike a chord with. And, it shows just how much people want more information and more education and more inclusivity and, you know, but, Yeah.
Why it's so hush hush and don't talk is beyond me. I don't know. I don't know either.
And I think that like as a teacher in the classroom when, you know, you would see children who just needed more support and we needed help and we needed like We just needed some answers and we we had questions and like there's nobody to go to besides School district and then the school district has to come in with all these assessments and like all of these things and all of this fill this form out and fill this survey out and fill this questionnaire out and and it's great like
we do all of that but oftentimes it's like then It's just such a long process. And then by the time we do like are able to get a little bit of support for us and the student, like we're worn out because we didn't get the support when we needed it. And then also like sometimes in our program, we had to say, we're sorry, like.
If you're like your child, if they need to take, if they take up like 50 percent or more of one teacher's time during the day, like we don't have the right support for your child. And so like, we have to like send them on their way, which is so sad to me because I feel like every child deserves and relationships and like the opportunity to be in those, those amazing play based learning situations. And so, How can we fix this?
Had you had more information, you might have been able to better help and support this child. Absolutely. It's also saying, what about these children that are not autistic or neurodivergent? Like, they need care too. Absolutely. Yes. Oh, it's a fine line. Yeah. Like, it's 50 percent of your time. Like, we want, We want to spend all the time with this child, this child. We want to give your child our undivided attention.
Well, I think the other thing that to kind of like think about too is that, um, there's maybe this mindset because there is this differentiation between special education and general education. And so like a general ed teacher who's gone to just like training to be an elementary ed teacher or early childhood teacher.
versus special ed like we think we don't have the knowledge for this and it's like not on us and so we don't even try but like can we learn and still be able to help and and be qualified without that special education degree like can we change that mindset we're like we are capable of this but then that also leads to the question like teachers we already have so freaking much sweet We cannot be expected to also be a special educator, but just by training our own selves, right? We, we, we can't.
We're doing all we can and we are maxed out. Yeah. Teachers are being like, we want the best, but we don't have the supports. No one's helping us. We're maxed out. Yes. Um, so, it's, it's a conversation that definitely needs to be talked about more. Um, less shame, less stigma. I mean, it's, there's nothing. I do, like, my mind jumps everywhere. I do have a great tip. Toss. Number one tip I would say for an autistic child, of course. Everyone's unique, so who knows if this helps, but I hope.
So if your autistic student or child is having like a meltdown, you know, and they're really upset, nothing's helping them. The best thing you can do is leave them alone. Stop trying to help them. Um, because autistic people, again, I'm not speaking for all of us, but we are very, very, very good at self regulating us, ourselves, our emotions. And any input from like a teacher or someone else who is trying to help is just distracting us from self regulating.
Okay. And like, this is what the child's just trying to, just let them self regulate. Yeah. I mean, within reason, not hurting themselves. Yeah. But I think you might be amazed if you just allow a child the space and then let him or her rejoin when they're ready. Okay. Again, it's preschool, and you, you're play based, I'm play based, I love the play based, what's it gonna, what, what is this child missing by being, by self regulating? They're missing nothing!
Yeah. They're learn, they're learning their own, how to regulate, that's important for them. So important. You know, they're, they're skill developing right then and there. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. So. That would be a step ahead. Yes. Okay. I have a question for you about masking. So, um, this is like a topic that I just hear coming up a lot in, um, the autistic community. And I've, I've questioned it myself before, but really didn't have a word to put. Put on it, which is masking.
So, like, when, uh, um, something, you, you have a child with an IEP, and they're, like, we're trying to get them to look this per like, look this percent of the time into somebody's eyes when they're speaking to them. Or, like, switching their stimming from something to something else. There's, like, all these, like, things that they're trying to get children not to do. And why is that? Is it because we want them to fit in, or Yeah.
Yeah. It's about, it's about compliance, and it's awful, it's so flawed, and I could cry, but like, I've done many research about peer reviewed papers on this subject and all, and about masking in the classroom, and how to help, and wouldn't you know, who's, who's directing the studies and all this, there's not one autistic person in these studies, there's So it's like, it's mind blowing. So that's another, like, facet of what I'm doing is just researching all this stuff.
But getting back to the masking, it's so wrong. Like, it's, it, and even some special educators are taught wrong. You know, like by making these kids be compliant, why the hell do I have to look you in the eyes? You know? Yeah! Like why? Absolutely! And Right! Yeah! And so I'm talking to one of my friends son right now In the midst of being assessed, you know, for whatever.
And the teacher has a thing about bad behaviors and good behaviors, and they get sticker charts, and I hate that altogether. Yes. I gave my fill on that. But I said, what behaviors is this teacher saying are bad? You know, like, what are we calling bad behavior? Spinning? Yeah. Is that really a bad behavior? Yeah. Ugh. Eddie. So, again, these teachers have to learn what masking is. What? What? Like, you don't have the time in the day.
So, if there's any, like, parents listening of young kiddos, the at home caregivers I call them, guardians, or maybe there's some teachers who are noticing that the IEPs that their students have has a lot of situations where they are trying to mask certain behaviors. What is the best route to go to kind of stand up for that child and say, like, why are we trying to get them to stop doing this or start doing when that's not the people that they are? I, I would question it. Yeah. Why?
What is, what's the point of this? Yeah, and where's the data behind it? Like, where's the research that shows they need to look a person in the eye for a certain amount of time? And then, if they show you some research, these parents can then say, Show me an autistic person that is on this bulletin board that's helped. Yes. But there is a growing, emergent, lots of little places, they're neuroaffirming care.
Yeah. They're called, and I'm not sure about insurance and what not, you know, but it's very Non-compliant base. It's like, yes, it, it's wonderful. So I, I just tell parents too. Yeah. I just went to a program in San Diego that is Neuro Affirming Childcare Program, and they, it's, um, mostly autistic children. And then there's your just like. Neurotypical children, that's the word I was looking for.
There's neurotypical children there too, and they have, it's just amazing, and it's play based, and they have, they're classroom teachers, but then they also have, like behavioral therapists there as well, and maybe some occupational therapists, but there's like, four to five staff members in the room with the children most of the time and they're there like those behavior therapists are there full time for those children and like helping them through their whole
entire day it is it was amazing and when I walked in You could not tell who was neurotypical and who was neurodivergent. You couldn't tell. And that's what they wanted. And it was phenomenal. I loved it. It was, like, I wish that there was more of those. Absolutely. I, yeah, I'm all for them. I'm friends with a couple on Instagram. If you want to know any more, you can DM me and whatever. But, yeah. I'm happy. Yes. Oh my goodness.
Okay. So if you could, if you could give any words of wisdom to neurotypical person about a neurodivergent autistic person, child or adult, like what? Advice or tips or words of wisdom would you give? Um, we want to be included. We want to be Able to stim freely like if i'm doing this.
Yeah If they say i'm autistic they're like, oh cool because a lot of people don't know what to say to that Yeah, and I find that when I say i'm autistic they're like it's not a big deal We don't care, you know, it's just like my shirt's blue You know, so, so it break the stigma, please ask questions, you have questions, ask them to us. We're happy to tell you, um, and include us, you know, just absolutely nice.
Uh, ask our opinions, maybe, you know, on something we love to help, we love to be included. And the worst thing you could do is probably say like, but you don't look autistic. Or, you don't, you don't act autistic. Yeah. But, who they are. Yeah. You can't do that to someone. And you, it's well intentioned. But, try not to say that. Yeah. As being, um, diagnosed with autism when you were in your 30s, how was that for you? What was that process like? And what made you seek it out?
And what was the feelings you had afterwards? Okay, it's a crazy story. Um, one of my students, not in my parent's school, one of my students was going through the assessment for autism, and this child had severe needs, you know, like, and I remember coming home one day and not complaining, but just, you know, venting about everything. You were exhausted, yes. I'm alone, I'm exhausted, and it's this, this, and this, and this.
And I live at home and my parents were like, but you did all those things. And at that moment, all three of us were like, Oh my God, gosh, sane. Because, like I said, I did all these behaviors, but my parents did not know. Yeah. And, uh, it changed my trajectory, that this little girl, you know? Oh, yeah. Yeah, uh, it was mind blowing. Um, a lot of people have imposter syndrome, is what they call it, like going through the system. Am I really autistic or not? Yeah. I did not have that.
It's valid to have it, but I'm flamingly autistic. I was like, oh yeah, like I am. So, But, but, it's valid to have imposter syndrome, too. And, you know, autism comes in every different flavor, shape, size, you know, there's nothing, so. Yeah, absolutely. It's like snowflakes, like no two are the same. Yeah, and that's all human beings, really. That's all human brains. Like, none of us are the same.
Yeah. We all have our beautiful and we all have the challenges and that's just being a human being, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, after you figured you found out and got that diagnosis, how did that change things for you? Did it change things for you? So it didn't really change a lot for me in the terms of like accommodations and stuff, because I do have accommodations and I have from ADHD. Like I already have that. So that took a lot of I don't need medicine. There's no medicine.
Um, but in terms of mental, it freed me up a lot. My body. My allowing myself just to be who I am, you know, like I thought I Didn't care before what others think of me, but it was not me, you know, like this is me Yeah, I'm happy to be me, you know, so It did a lot of good for my mental health Absolutely. Have you noticed, um, anything in your, okay, so like you are around children a lot because you're a preschool teacher.
How has, um, having autism, like how does that affect you in the classroom? Like positively and like what do you notice that is hard for you? I could give you, like, an amazing story that I found amazing, too, and this person did, too. Again, not on my current school. And all names that change. Yes. Yes. Um, so I had a speech therapist coming in and working with this little girl and the little girl wasn't responding. I forget what they call it, but she wasn't responding to the therapy.
Yeah. And the therapist was trying all these different things to get this child to engage. Yeah. And I was like, um, I've noticed it's really hot and sunny in that spot. She might be hot. So how about you try moving her? And she did. And then she, she paid more attention. Like she was just oversensitized by the scene. She couldn't focus because she was just focused on I'm hot. Yeah. You know, and there's no training someone. It takes an autistic brain.
Yes. You know, like, she, these special educators, are very highly educated in these things, and they're great at their jobs, and we need them, and I love them. But there are certain parts of, you need an autistic mind, almost, to fully grasp it. So I wish, like, more autistics were well, were used in classrooms, like, we're teaching educators, you know. Like, hey, can you come, I don't know where they would even find something like that, but maybe I can help, but, yes, so. That's really cool.
Mm. So, you're like, you have just a different eye for things, you have a different mind for things that, like, somebody who's neurotypical just is not going to notice or see at all. And likewise, you and other neurotypical people can notice things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I just don't get to eat at home. Absolutely. Yeah. Oh my goodness. Well, I am so glad that you took the time to be here to talk to us. I'm very happy.
Yes. Tell people where they can find, they can connect with you and where they can find more Beth. Please do. My DMs are always open. I'm very happy to help and talk. My Instagram is Autoask, A U T, number two, ask, A S K. Yes. And then there's a link in my bio for the survey, I think you have the link so you might Yes, we'll put it, we'll put it in the show notes for sure. So feel free to connect with me, I'm happy to chat. Amazing.
Well, thank you so much, Beth, for your expertise, for your stories, for your vulnerability, I appreciate you and the work that you're doing for our community and children. I appreciate you too, I love your content, so I'm happy to be here. Yay. so If you liked what you heard today, share this podcast with your coworkers, admin, or maybe even your partner. And I love getting five star reviews so more people can embrace play. Hit follow or subscribe so you never miss an episode.
Or connect with me on Instagram or my website, KristenRBPeterson. com. Until next time.