Welcome to the Play Based Learning Podcast. I'm your host, Kristen Arby Peterson, and maybe your new teacher, Bestie, that is here to hype you up, maybe give you a motivating kick in the pants, and teach you all I know about play and childhood. I am here to help you challenge old and outdated practices and inspire you to create a truly developmentally appropriate early childhood environment that fosters creativity, passion, Curiosity and joy in the children that you care for.
Let's set the stage for a lifelong love of learning. Let's get going. I'm so excited to have Debra McNamara with me for the Playbase Learning Podcast today. We're talking all about boredom, and I am jazzed to talk about this because I get asked about it all the time. But first, Debra, can you tell us about you? Tell us, like, what you do, where what you like, all the things, and what brings you here? Sure. Well, I'm delighted to be here. Thank you for the invitation. That's why I'm here.
And I love all things play, and I wrote a book, Rest, Play, Grow, Making Sense of Preschoolers, for anyone who acts like one. So I love that! Or anyone who acts like one. Exactly. And I work at the Neufeld, or I work in private practice as a counselor supporting families. I have two kids myself, 20 and 18 they are now. And I work at the Neufeld Institute alongside Gordon Neufeld, making sense of kids to the adults who are responsible. Oh wow. That's pretty cool.
Okay. So like I said, I get asked all the time, like, I think one of the biggest things that, my audience is all early childhood educators, generally, or parents of young children, and I get asked a lot when I'm out on the road speaking people will say, but Kristen, when I let children just play, they get bored, and then they just start being destructive and destroy things, so like, how do I keep them from getting bored, and I've also come across So we can
dissect that a little bit, but I've also come across the question of like, Hey, my school agers are home for the summer and they're just bored all the time. And so they just do nothing. And they just sit there and scroll on their phones. So like, how can I engage them and keep them from being bored? So let's dive in and start, I mean, start with the first one.
So like, How do we, what do we tell, what would you tell educators when they say, when I let children play, they get bored and then they become destructive? Well, I would first start with the word boredom, because I think it's important to understand what boredom is. Okay. You can move anybody anywhere or, or have a relationship with someone's boredom. We have to understand what it is. So boredom, the word bore is a good word actually, is part of that word.
Bore is that sense of empty or there's a void there's a place where energy is spent To come from the inside out. That's what we're really saying is that when we turn off the screens or there's some space that we want a child to light to, to launch into action from that space inside of themselves that can create, that can make sense of things or whatever it is, we want them to show up. Yes. So boredom is that place where the where there is space, there is a void.
And a child has to, or an adult has to fill it with themselves. It could be that there isn't any work to be done. If you have to pay attention to work, get your work done, your chores done, you're going to school, you're eating, you've got some activity. There's no empty spot in that. It's filled up with a task, with an activity. So, work is one particular mode that when the brain is in a work mode, there isn't a void. It's filled with the focused attention on the task at hand.
When you are shifting into a play mode, which is essential for survival and development, the switch into play is is a very distinct energy pattern where the child has to fill that Space that isn't task or task or work driven with themselves. Yeah, their own ideas with their own intentions, their own purpose, their own meaning, their own emotions. It is that doorway from work into play into coming from the inside out that oftentimes you see the threshold of I'm bored.
Nothing is coming from within me right now to fill this space. Mm hmm. It used to be, once upon a time, that, you know, back in the day when my mom, you know, was a mother of five, would just say, go outside and be bored then. Yeah, absolutely. And we would fill it up with ourselves in the best way possible. But, What you'll probably hear from most people is that doesn't work anymore, or it's working less.
And that's the problem, is that we don't understand why simply letting a child sit in boredom doesn't work anymore to launch them into play. And it really should concern us. And this is why this is such a great question around boredom, because it's not just a simple answer as it used to be. We need to understand what's changed, what's getting in the way, because we know play is essential for survival and development. Thank you. When play goes down, it's like losing your honeybees.
It's, it's equivalent, if you're a developmentalist, losing play is like losing your honeybees. For survival, it's a no go. So why do our children seem to be showing up chronically bored, not able to feel, fill those empty spaces with themselves? That would be the question. Yeah. That would lead us to better answers. And that's, that's the one we can explore. Let's explore it. So, dive in.
So the thing about the play instinct, if we understand that everybody's got an instinct to play, that children it should be engaging. It should draw you in. It's not about work. It's about expression. It should be relatively, you know, safe and being free to express what is within. What gets in the way today? Well, we no longer Simply have the luxury of just sitting in an empty space or void where there's nothing left to do. We have things that masquerade as play that are not play.
We have far too much information, entertainment, scheduled activities, you name it. The stimulation is absolutely at another level. So, the space that is required to not have an answer to your Void like you have to like something's always there to fill it in quickly.
Yeah at your fingertips So this idea that we could just let a child be bored Well, there's something always around the corner to entertain stimulate or take them out of that Take them off track from that something's always ready to fill us up And it's generally like the little thing that comes out of your pocket, your little, your phone that you can just like mindlessly scroll on for hours and hours and hours. Or think about what kids ask you for when they say I'm bored.
What do they then ask you for? I'm bored. I need food. I'm bored. I want to play with someone. I'm bored. I want to go on my devices. I'm bored. You need to play with me. Like they're always saying I'm bored and I'm seeking, basically what they should just say, I'm bored and I'm seeking stimulation so I don't have to fill the void myself. Yeah. That's what it is. Yeah. And because, okay, so like filling the void yourself. Let's unpack that a little bit.
So why do we, what is the, like, underlying reason why we don't want to fill it ourself? That's like a huge question, I bet. No, it's a brilliant question, actually. It is the question that you need to answer is like, okay, well, what naturally would spur us into this? Well, part of the question you've already got is there has to be support. Like there has to be space, there has to be nothing that gets in the way of that, which we can't count on that today so much.
But what propels you, what, what would be more pressing than the instinct to play? Like what would come before the instinct to play? What is more pressing for survival? It's, it's human relationship. It's about attachment. Like attachment is a survival instinct.
So your pursuit, and if your hunger for a relationship isn't met, Then it often times takes up a lot of space to try to pursue that, focus on that, who can I play with, you know, you're trying to fill an empty hole, but sometimes that's about relational needs that haven't been met, so that pursuit is is, you're not at rest enough to be able to launch out into the future. Thank you.
Maturation, like, let's put it this way, we need, we need two places of rest, or we need two invitations, the invitation to connect, if you feel that you're in satiating, you feel satiated by the connections you have, then the brain says, okay, thanks very much, I've got that need taken care of. Then what does the brain do? Okay, now that I can take that for granted. Now we're going to going to pay attention to new novel things. We're going to figure problems out.
We're going to get out there in the world and venture forth. If you don't have basic needs met, it's very difficult necessarily to launch into play from that place that grows you and matures you. Now, there is a caveat to that, of course, but this is just the one pathway that if it was working well, Our relational needs would be met. And the child basically says, thank you very much. I'm full. And then they go running off to discover. Uncover, explore, be curious, whatever. Okay, okay.
So, what a good strategy for, let's say, parents who have kids at home, or just guardians who have kids at home. What a good strategy be to, you know, if you kind of see that boredom itching in, to like, take some time and like, connect. With that child for 10 15 minutes and then send them on their way? Absolutely. Brilliantly said. That's the answer. Connection before you launch them into play and that support of bringing them close, filling them up.
Now you might find that some kids are chronic, are emptier than you imagine. And don't, and aren't able to fill that hole. There's lots of things that it might not necessarily lead you to independent play, but it could still lead you to play. Because the other part of this is, is that if your relational needs are not being met, or, and it doesn't mean that your, your parents aren't providing for you. You might go to school and have a really hard day. Like what did Lawrence Cohen say?
You know, the developmentalist, kids don't come home and say, I had a hard day. They say, will you play with me? Yeah. How they're processing their emotions and their experiences is through play. So you might have a child that isn't going to get right into that restful mode, but what they still need with your support is to play out. Emotion.
And that's the other beautiful thing that we don't realize about play is that play, the brain doesn't differentiate between emotions expressed in play or in reality. Yeah. And so the brain is getting the release. It's getting the discharge of whatever emotion it is, whether it's reality or not. What is, what is the safest way to express frustration that doesn't get in the way of your relationships?
You build something, you destroy something, you you know, construct, you demolish, you craft, you, you organize, like, all of these are frustration based play, like, kids can't talk about the real monsters in their life, but they, they can, out of their frustration and their alarm, monsters are born and playing, and played with. So, your child might not get to that independent, I can fill my whole.
You know, this my life with play, but if you were to support them and walk beside them, the best thing you might be doing for that child is to have a play date with whatever emotion they brought home. Okay. Cause that brings the emotional system back into balance. It provides the discharge for whatever's been charged up. And that is why in all.
The research you will read when play inter when when anything interferes with true play, we get a correlation with mental health, emotional issues and children because play takes care of our human emotional system. And so maybe what you're doing in play is again, inviting the expression of emotion that might not have been able to come out in other places because they would have gotten into trouble or there wasn't space.
But that would be a brilliant move for parents or anyone after a child comes home after a day of play or anything is stirring them up in their world. Wow. Okay. Now, as you're speaking, I'm thinking about my own experiences in the classroom and just other questions I get asked when I'm out speaking. And sometimes people will ask me like, what do you do about the kids who, you know, Don't want to ever play by themselves and they only want to play with the teacher.
And I'm seeing some correlation here. I'm like thinking, okay, there must be, you know, that relational piece must be missing. And that's why they maybe are wanting to play with the adult in the room. That could be a reason. What do you think about that? Yeah, I think you're right that there could be many reasons. So that might be the place of safety. They might be hungry for connection. So they're trying to play it out with their teacher.
Their teacher might be the, the place of rest where they can express their emotions. It might be play to pursue connection. Really? That's the guts of it. Because play does build relationship. It's wonderful for building relationships. And they might just really like their teacher want to be close to them. Absolutely. Yeah. I always, I don't look at it as a bad thing because a lot of times it's like, ugh, I have this kid who just won't let go play with anybody else.
And it's like, but like that should make you feel a little bit good that, you know, adore you so much and are seeking that relationship with you that they are wanting to be your playmate. What, Okay why does boredom make adults uncomfortable? Boredom in children.
Well, I mean, I think there's many reasons, but one of them is that I, I, when, when you're at that doorway where nothing is filling you and coming from the inside out, the emotional system is really pressuring the outside world to be the answer to that. void. Yeah. So it's kind of, it's not like whining, but it's pretty close. I'm bored. In fact, they can whine and be bored, which is just, I'm bored. You can feel everything in your emotional system is it's driving the adult to be the answer.
And so of course we get very stirred up, like just stop. Like you're, you're almost like filled, like solve the problem because this is exactly what for ideal development that the child's brain can fill it up. Like when my mom said to us, you can either help us do, you can help me do the vacuuming or you could go outside and play, but I am not playing with you while I'm bored. That's not my job to fix it. You can help me do. The, the chores, or you go outside, I'll be like, Oh, fine.
I'll go outside and I'll do the chores. After I felt a little bit sad about it, then I would invent a game. I would, you know, and then my mother would have a hard time pulling me in for play. The problem is, is that our children today don't have enough time spent in play. We know they've lost outdoor time, unstructured time, more instruction in schooling. They have more devices, more entertainment, more screens. And the screens are like this quick fix dopamine dump in the brain.
And so kids are like. Feed me, feed me, feed me. This idea of sitting in any place where there is a void and having to, to, to come from the inside out, you need to build capacity. So, of course, children need to be led back to their play. The two things. Over and over again, support and space. That should be our job as adults. We no longer have a culture that delivers that space, and we have to get there to support it. Okay, you know what?
No, I, I'm not going to, to do this or this, but I will help you get set up or, you know. We'll move in this direction and whatever it might be you help support, get something going or, you know, perhaps, and then back away. And, but think, you know, about the big picture of, of, you know, do they have too much structured activities and schooling and play dates that are really just about, We think when kids are together that they're true play, there's true play.
Actually a lot of it's just attention and attachment seeking. And what is play for one child isn't play for another child. It could be one child who has the story and everyone else has to be an actor in that child's story. That's not play for those kids. So maybe it's getting away from sibling play sometimes. I'm not saying all or none. You know, maybe it's getting away and having spaces free of, of screens.
But if you always, you know, If there's no structure routine around how screens are delivered, then you've got a child whose brain keeps pressing. Solve my problem of boredom. Something fill me, something fill me in from the outside in. And what we want is for the child to fill in those spaces from the inside out. Out. Yeah. That's why, like, that's why it just comes at us like, Oh, I wasn't meant to fix this because we weren't meant to.
But we don't have a culture anymore and a society that preserves and protects it. We are down the road with this. We're still trying to figure out how we have to put in structure routine around our devices that the horse is out of the gate. Okay. What do you suggest? I mean, this wasn't about devices, but I think that that is a huge problem and reason why children don't want to fill their boredom void. So, what, what do you suggest for screen use in children?
And it's probably different for different ages. I'm assuming. Exactly. Development of the lens is important. You know, the pediatric society, American and Canadian pediatric society said not under the age of two, no screens. But parents went, like, that's not going to happen because they're digital babysitters. So, you know.
Minimal as you can really up until the age of six kids really need spaces and time to play and to fill that With their own endeavors or to play out, you know, frustration play out alarm the old fashioned games of you know Hide and seek the floor is lava like these are brilliant brilliant Spaces and places to keep preserved under the age of six.
I really don't I mean Minimal use, yeah, screens sometimes, like with, you know, little movies or things that are appropriate at age appropriate levels, there's a difference between giving a child an iPad and having interactivity. I like the old flat screen TV, you know, half an hour on off, and because actually developmentally, it's very different. How fast it moves, the child's interactivity, and how it absolutely engages them differently. So just try to think about it in those, those terms.
And then when a child can play on their own and amuse themselves and fill the spaces in their life with things that come from the inside out, then you might introduce more games and play video games. I mean, they need to know about it. They need to have limits around it. I wouldn't want them not to and to have us. Help them with that. I think that's responsible when they're using screens for work. It's very different.
But then screens that get in the way of play or something altogether different. I oftentimes think about, you know, like Ed Sheeran and his brilliance with his looping station. I mean, would you say to Ed Sheeran if he was a teenager in his room? No, you've only, you know, you should only have two hours with your technology. Now stop playing music with your looping station. Of course, you never want to say that. Why?
Because Using these devices to give expression to the poet and the musician inside of him. So it's, I think we get lost in this a little bit, but generally better inside, out. Preserve as much as you can. And if tools can help. Give expression from the inside out, then, then use them that way for sure. But think developmentally. I don't think young kids need a lot, to be honest with you. I think educational apps, I think all that stuff is way overblown. Kids learn tons in play.
They don't need it down their throat. They don't need to have preschool on a, no, no, absolutely not. You would never sign me up for that. I would never sign off on that. No, me neither. Okay. How can parents and caregivers. Figure out the difference between being bored and then maybe other needs that the kiddo has. Well, I don't think you have to. Okay. I think you're off the hook. I think you're off the hook.
I think you just have to remember that you could support whatever needs to be expressed. See, like, if, if their emotions are built up and they can't actually launch into that, like, free play or creative play or whatever, then maybe the emotions that are stirred up are the very emotions you have to draw into play. So come on, let's go, you know, do some arts and crafts and you know, come on, let's go build something and smash it down. Come on, let's go play hide and seek.
Let's go play the floor is lava. Let's go set you up with, you know, a big pile of Play Doh that you can, you know, do whatever you want to. Or come help me in the kitchen and chop up vegetables. Do you know what chopping up vegetables is like for the frustration system? Chop, chop, Ooh, yeah! Yeah! So you can invite those emotions if they can't get to the play because they're emotionally built up.
Yeah. Then you draw them into some activity that discharges those emotions best of all, which is going to be some sort of expression, play, kicking, hitting, like you. Do that. You draw them in. You provide support for that and create some space. No, it isn't screen time. No, we're not having people over. No, you know, we're not going to to get that and pull that out right now. It's just, we'll figure it out. I'm going to help you, but create the space and provide the support.
Do you know that you've completely kind of like changed my thinking on being bored through this conversation? Because a lot of times my kids will be like, I'm bored. And I'll be like, good. Like, That is the best driver of creativity. And then I just kind of leave them to their own, you know, devices. And generally a lot of times they'll just go right back on their little phone and start swiping away. And now I really realized that it can't be how it was when I was younger.
Like you said, go outside and play, but you can't, it doesn't work very well. So I'm going to be much more intentional about how I. How I try to bring that from what's in out in my children, because I have to be more intentional about it, I guess. Yeah, well said. And I wish if we could send our kids outside and there were other kids there, then they would hopefully get caught into play.
But like during the pandemic, you sent your kids outside, even though they had all this space and time, there were no takers, they were on side devices. And so yes, they're trying to preoccupy themselves and they don't know what to do when you turn it off. And so you get kindergartners who instead of are full of life and bounding out there discovering the world like the little scientists that they are, they're like, They are now like, Oh, I'm bored.
I don't know how to play because we haven't done our job to protect play. Like play takes care of emotion that we know through science that play takes care of our emotional system. That emotional system is what keeps us going. helps us survive because we stay close to our attachments, we care about things, we develop, we grow, we mature, we're empathic. But the point is, is that okay, if emotion takes care of relationships and play takes care of emotion, what takes, or who takes care of play?
Culture did. We did. So when we aren't guardians of play anymore, then the emotional system can't mature and protect and guide. Then our relationships Can't do the job that they need to do for survival. So it's all connected together and I don't think those pieces are well understood. It's not just about screens. It's about what it interferes with. It interferes with the development of the self from the inside out. And too many of our kids are auditioning, especially in, in, in adolescence.
They're auditioning for selfhood in the digital world. Do you like this version? Well, that was never meant to be out there for real. That was never meant to be a performance. It was always something that was done in play, where you experimented with the self, you experimented with voices and, you know, styles and dresses and all things and all manners, and, you know, do what you want in play. It's not for real, but when you push it into the digital world. It does, it's not play anymore.
It's work and it has emotional consequences and developmental consequences. So no, I think that would be the beautiful message if people got that. No, preserve time and space for it. This is not screen time. You'll have screen time, but this is not the space. I'm gonna help you get started with something. I'm here. Let's go for a walk. The dog needs a hug, whatever it is. Come help me. Do dinner. Yeah, but I'm available, but this is not how we're going to do it anymore.
We're going to have some space for this and I'm not going to be probably thankful for it, but you know, just put up with some fuss, get on with it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. They're not going to be happy about that, but it's necessary. And I think also for ourselves too, like, I mean, how many of us at nighttime, I mean, I'll speak for myself. I go to, you know, before I go to bed, I go on my phone or I'll watch something.
I'm like, Deb, you used to read, used to, I mean, used to, to love to think or reflect and just lie awake for hours and, you know, or not hours, but, you know, lie awake and think before you go to bed. That's such golden time for us. To come to rest and just to play around with ideas and to think and to reflect and, but you know, screens get in the way of that and it's not serving us well. It's not, is it? I still do love to read before bed. I do too. Do you? Yeah. Reading is play for me.
Yeah, exactly. I usually am always, I have like two to three books going at all times. So I usually have like, you know, some steamy novel or a murder mystery. And then I have like a self help book usually. And then I have something about like early childhood education or marketing or business or something like that always going at the same time. I love, like, me too. I love books. I do too. Oh, they're so good. And that's another thing that I feel like is missing from my kids lives.
Like, they don't read. I don't, like, none of my children are huge readers. Like, some of them will pick up a book and just, like, read for fun, but then they'll, like, not read for eight months. So, that's another thing, yeah, that is somewhat missing because of screens, there's not a lot of reading anymore.
It is, and you know, it's, I remember my husband saying to me, well let's just get them, you know, an iPad and stop buying all these books, and I'm like, no, because if you do that, they won't simply read on their iPad, there's too many other things. So, no, don't take away my trips to the library to get a bunch of books and hot chocolate or whatever it was, or to the bookstore where they would be able to buy one book.
And that was one of our outings, was to preserve a book as a place of As a place of joy as an outing as something special and to support that love of reading and I didn't care what they read they want to buy, you know, or they wanted to, you know, take out a manga comic book or, you know, I didn't care. It was a graphic novel. I just cared that, you know, it was something other than than simply a video game or a screen going into them. But you have to lead. You have to lead and that's hard.
We're tired as parents and it is daunting. I talk about this as if it's easy, but it's not. It's a daunting time to be a parent. It really is. With, you know, with the lack of support for play and the amount of things that get in the way of it. It is daunting. I, I can't say that this is easy. No. Hmm. Okay. Where can people This was brilliant. I learned so much from you. Thank you so much for sharing all of your knowledge. Where can people find you, connect with you, and learn more from you?
Great. Well, thank you very much for having me and for picking such a great topic. You sure nailed this one. Amazing. Sure. Where can they find me? On the internet like, you know on screens. All screens. All screens and social media. That's right, mcnamara. ca or deborahmcnamara. com and all the usual social media suspects.
And yeah, and I'll drop an infographic for you on playing out frustration because it's just when you can see all the ways that you can have a play date with your child's frustration or even a teenager, it can help that frustration not go out onto the relationships, make it difficult. And now you have a behavioral problem, potentially disciplined problem.
Like what if we got ahead of the frustration, drew it out into play, discharged it, and then you got everybody who's a lot softer and a lot better able to to be with each other. So I'll drop that for everybody. Okay. That'll be a great resource for people. So we will put the link so that you can get that infographic, playing through frustration. Is that what it was that we said? Playing out frustration. Okay. So that will be in the show notes. You can check there for that.
Thank you so much, Debra. It was so nice to meet you. And I feel like we need to talk more. There was something that came up in there and I was like, I feel like we need to have a whole entire conversation about this. I don't recall what it was, but when I go back and listen, I'm sure I'll be in your email inbox again. Like, let's talk about this next. I would invite that. So yes. Thank you so much. It's been a real pleasure. All right. Thank you. Bye bye.
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