Welcome to the Play Based Learning Podcast. I'm your host, Kristen Arby Peterson, and maybe your new teacher, Bestie, that is here to hype you up, maybe give you a motivating kick in the pants, and teach you all I know about play and childhood. I am here to help you challenge old and outdated practices and inspire you to create a truly developmentally appropriate early childhood environment that fosters creativity. Curiosity and joy in the Children that you care for.
Let's set the stage for a lifelong love of learning. Let's get going. I'm so excited today to have Emily Clark here to talk all about researchy things, because researchy things are not my jam. It seems overwhelming. And so we're gonna hash that out a little bit, and we're gonna talk about like, because it's probably overwhelming for a lot of people, but we know we need it. So, you are the gal. That I count on for all my research needs, um, and I'm glad that I can count on you for that.
Um, I've hired you for a few different projects to dig up research, and I've been using your research in my Instagram stuff now. And you've talked about how to, um, you know, cite those things. I don't know if I'm doing it correctly, but I'm trying. So, um, let's talk about research. Yeah. All the research things. Okay, so tell us, like, how you got into this. Like, what pulled you into wanting to just, like, dive into research for early childhood education?
I think when I started doing my master's degree, which was back in like 2015. Um, I was like, Oh, I really thrive off of this. Like I love continually just sort of reading new things and figuring out how things work and sort of what's the behind the scenes of what's happening in the classroom. And so for me, that's sort of like that level of what.
What research brings us is that sort of deeper thinking about what we see every day, and it allows us to sort of like step back from what we're doing in the moment, which can be so all consuming and sort of see what are some other perspectives on that. Um, so I got really into it then. Um, I finished my degree and then I, I was in the classroom while I was doing that and I'm still in the classroom now.
Um, so I just find research to be really empowering, um, to be able to know sort of what are more people saying about this, you know, because I think we always have those gut feelings and we always have, like, I know this is. What feels right for me. This is what feels right in this classroom. Um, and it feels. It's good to be able to see, okay, other people are finding this too, or other people are struggling with this too.
And to have those sort of really official, if you will, ways to sort of back ourselves up, I think is really important. Um, so yeah, so I decided that. After I finished my master's degree, I, I lost sort of that access to all of those research archives that I had been really using in my practice. And I felt like, why, why is all of this really brilliant research locked up in universities with people who aren't teaching small children? Why is this so inaccessible?
Um, When the people who could benefit from it aren't the people who can read the research and so that rolled around in my head for a while until I started early at M, where we just sort of break it out of those pay walls and break it down so that it can be. Usable and read and, you know, much more impactful. Absolutely. Okay, so early ad M is the name of your Instagram. Is it also the name of like your business? Yeah, so that's the website is on the blog for the research hub.
And that's where people can find sort of the long versions of everything that I break down. And the short versions are on Insta. Amazing. Oh my goodness. I'm so like. So thankful that I have found you. Um, okay, so Well, first I wanted to tell you, like, my experience with research, which helps a lot. I love that you're holding a crayon right now, Kristen. And poking myself in the face with it. This could not be a more early years podcast than you holding a crayon.
I know, I'm taking notes in crayon. That's all I can find. Really fast. Okay, sorry, carry on. Um, so my friend Tiffany Pearsall, she owns a center in Washington State. Um, it's called Play Frontier, it's beautiful, amazing, she, um, her and I had a podcast for a very long time, we recorded over a hundred episodes, and she used to, when she would read a book, let's just take, like, do I have any? Okay, we're gonna take this one. Um, so this book is called Tiny Humans, Big Emotions.
It's by Alyssa Blask Campbell and Lauren Stauble. Um, they are Seed and Sew on Instagram, but, and I'm just using this book for an example because I just pulled it off and I'm up the shelf. So I'm gonna look in the back because Tiffany used to do this and I used to be like, why are you wasting your time doing that? She used to love to go. Oh, maybe this one doesn't have it. Um, like, uh, oh, nope, it does.
Um, in the notes section, she would go to the back of the book and find all of their resources that they used to pull their book together. And then she would, like, highlight things that she wanted to read. And a lot of them were, like, researchy articles. And I was like, girl, you're so smart. Like, I am, I, and this is gonna, I'm gonna self degrade myself. Like, but no, I don't do that.
But I would be like, I'm not smart enough to To do that, also, I just found a praying mantis little animal sitting next to my desk too, so like, yeah, we are an early childhood podcast here. Oh my gosh. Yeah, I think research can feel so intimidating, right? Like, it can feel very much like, That's, that's not for me. I don't, I don't do that. Or even, even I don't need that. You know, like, we often can get quite defensive about our practices and quite like, um, no, I've, I've been here.
I've been through it. I've been working. Um, I don't. I don't know about research and maybe that's doesn't matter to me and my practice. Um, but actually, I think what we find when people are open to any sort of professional learning is that it can really grow your skills and open up your practice to things you didn't necessarily expect. And research can do that too. And it really.
Empowering way because you're the one who sort of gets to lead your journey down that rabbit hole wherever you want to go absolutely, so Okay, um Have you come across any research lately? That was like mind blowing. Yeah, you know, one of the things I just shared was That the American Academy for Pediatrics little American Academy for Pediatrics has actually released a massive piece on the power of play, like, for pediatricians, and it's basically a huge.
breakdown of why play is so important for children's development, for their brain development, um, for all of this stuff. And it's basically, um, like ask to beg doctors to write a prescription for play. And I was like, how does this come out in 2018? You know, and I'm always in the research and I haven't seen this. And then so that piece was really exciting. Oh my goodness. I've never heard of it. I just Googled it. I see it right here. Wow. Yeah, so it's Dr. Michael Yogeman.
Um, and so it was published by the AAP as sort of a clinical report. Like, this is big, big news. Um, and it's available free for everyone to go and read. Um, there's no paywall for that as well. Oh my goodness. Okay, so if somebody is interested in digging up their own research. And not utilizing you to dig it up for them, like, um, if they're, if they want to do it on their own, what are your tips? Where, how do they start? Like, what do you do?
Yeah, I think what, what you said that, um, that TIFF does is a great idea is look at something, a piece you've read, um, or even an article in like a NAEYC magazine or something like that. And they will always have A reference list at the bottom, they will always have articles that they've referenced. And so you can always start with just simple Google, like Google it, see what comes up with the title.
Um, sometimes you won't be able to get that exact article, but you might be able to get something that is similar. In that vein, you can also go to your local library. Sometimes they have access to research databases. So you can get behind paywalls that way. Um. And, and just sort of start, start simple.
Maybe there's an author that you like, um, maybe they're sharing something, and I think a lot of times people come to it from, from Instagram, which is sort of why, why I'm there, because one of the things that, you know, gets me is like, red flags when people post, research says, You know, and they don't actually provide any research. I'm guilty. I have done that before. But you don't do it anymore. No, because I have you, and you make it easy for me.
Okay, um, So, there was something that you posted that actually made me change my mind on something, because research showed something different than what I have been taught, and now I can't even remember what it was, but I feel like it had something to do with, um, um, uh, the teacher's role in play, and Maybe scaffolding or wasn't scaffolding and I should have looked this up before we started talking It was something that you posted.
Okay, I'm gonna go on Instagram We can check this out because I want to I want to know what I'm talking about here but it made me really think about how I How, my view on that thing, okay. Was it the one about like, adult presence in play? Yep! What was it? The one about play cues?
Yeah, it was something about the adult presence, because I always, I always am such a proponent, like a, a supporter of like standing back, and just letting the children play, and not getting in there and getting involved unless you're asked. But then you pointed out some sort of research that shows different. Transcribed And I was like, Oh, okay, it could have been the one I was just sharing sort of about. I've been sharing some things lately about how children decide whether it's safe to play.
Um, and that actually, sometimes your presence. Can tell children it's not safe to play and sometimes your presence can tell children that it is safe to play. Oh, that's interesting. Or ideally that, um, like, your presence doesn't impact them. Yeah. Which is almost what, what you want ideally that they'll play or not play.
Regardless of what you're doing, um, but I think a lot of times when we engage with children, um, you know, we pull them in for a small group where we pull them onto the carpet or it's read aloud time. And then you, you sort of alter that with free play where the adult is not involved. Now, they might be getting a cue from that. That, oh, if, if, um, Kristen's here, it must be time for something that's not play. Um, so that actually we want to be responsive to children's play.
We want to make sure that when we're interacting with children, it's not only those things that we sometimes have to do in our settings, um, but that it is also those fun things too. Um, so that when children see us, basically, they're not terrified. Of what we're gonna make them do. Absolutely. Okay. So, I have no idea if that's what made me think, I'm gonna find it. But, as I'm scrolling your Instagram, which if you don't follow really Etta on Instagram, you need to.
Um, who should decide who, what defines play? Researchers argue for children to have a say. I love that. Because, like, we adults just put, like, we do so much work trying to define play and what it is, but that's our adult goggles. Yes. Defining play. And in order to really define it, we should be asking the children who are playing. Yeah. And that's like. A lot of the research that I've been doing lately is around children's rights and children's Yeah.
Rights within education settings and their right to sort of lead their learning and participate in their learning and make decisions for themselves and their own bodies. And I think play comes down to that as well. You know, we can look for these definitions of play, but does that matter if it doesn't apply to you? You know what I mean? If I'm for and in that moment, your, your definition of play, you know.
May or may not, I mean, it probably doesn't matter at all whether or not it aligns with my definition of play. No, not at all. You're just living life. You're living your best life if you're allowed to play. Exactly. But I think that's what, you know, that's one of those things about research that I really enjoy is that it's a continual conversation.
Like it sort of feeds that continual curiosity, um, about our practices rather than just Just being stuck in our opinions, even if, you know, their opinions that we think are really great. Um, it constantly forces us to be having those conversations to be reflecting and looking at things differently. Um, and then deciding for ourselves, but we always want to be able to have.
The new information before we decide for ourselves, you know, we don't want to be doing things just because we've always done them or just because someone else has always done them or just because it looked cute on Pinterest. Please don't, you know, we want to have all that information. And so accessing research, you know, really does that for me.
Hmm. Um. Um, so one of the things that now that I'm not a director in a program, but maybe would have done as a director of a program is to make research accessible to my teachers who maybe don't have time to dig up that stuff and read it and find it. And that could be something that people could use.
Utilize you for, like, because I know you have, like, an email, you, you can, you can get some of your things via email, you send out a free kind of research digest here and there about certain things, you break it down into, like, a, like, a summary of the research and then some key takeaways, and that could be a really great way to engage your staff and, like, give them a fast, down and dirty, like, Here's something to think about this month, and incorporating
that into your monthly staff meetings. Like, I don't think that happens enough. And we fall back on that red flag of research says, but do we actually know Like, have we, like, individually spent the time to dig up that research and find it? Are we counting on somebody else who wrote a book once, 15 years ago, that says that research says? And then we're utilizing them and saying, they said, research says, and not actually digging it up for ourselves. Like, I'm totally guilty of that.
And it's really because of, like, I had no idea how to do it. Yeah, and I think, like, Particularly in early childhood, more than maybe most other fields. We come to it from such diverse places, um, you know, people who love working with small children. Maybe you always knew that. Maybe you didn't, you know, maybe you went to school for six years for it. Maybe you didn't go to school, you know, beyond high school at all.
There's such a. A variety of ways to enter the field and so we come with such diverse perspectives and that makes it really brilliant for our children who are also coming with such diverse perspectives, but it's also sometimes easy to get lost in what do I need for my development? Where am I going? What do I believe? Those sorts of things. Yeah. Yeah. What? Um, okay. So, um, Yeah. Oh, I had a great question in my head. Oh, no, I know and I lost it.
So we're gonna go with this one Um, okay So if I have people out there who are ready to like dig up their own research and use it to inform their practice Where do they start? How do they know what's real? And how can they like? break it down easily to like really digest it because I think a lot of times I get overwhelmed because the language is so yeah nerdy and like big and smart and I get overwhelmed. So how, what are some tips you have for that?
Okay, so you can always read, um, the abstract of a piece, which is like a really short summary, even if the article is behind a paywall. So if you search something, um, you know, you see an article, you're just doing any sort of Google search for research, you can always read. The abstract and the abstract will give you a summary of sort of who did the research. Um, what what took place? Like, how many participants were there and sort of what were the general findings?
Um, so that can be a really great place to start. If you're just looking for an overview, um. Yeah, that can be really helpful. And, you know, they can be written, even abstracts can be written a bit dryly. Yeah. But, what you can do now, and I don't think I've told anybody this little sneaky tip yet. Um, you can take an abstract and you can pop it into ChatGPT. Oh, I was just going to ask if you've done that.
And ask ChatGPT, like, Okay, tell me this in normal human speak, um, and it will help you. So it can also, you know, help you sort of to break that down into language that's maybe a little bit more accessible. Absolutely. Yeah. That's a great tip. I would be like, can you please reword this like you were explaining it to a fourth grader? Like, please just tell me this in, in actual human English and not really deep academic hidden English. Yeah. Oh, that's great. That's great.
Okay. Um, so why, here's the question that lost, that left my brain, a lot of traditional early childhood classrooms. Are really not a lot research based. They don't, you know, it's veered far away from it. Yeah. Why is that and how can we get people to realize that's happened? So, I think if you were one of the people who went to, you know, who did a bachelor's degree in early childhood education, the education that you probably got, the education that I got, Was quite dated. Yeah, even then.
So, even then, you know, I went, I did finish my bachelor screen, like, 2010, which is 1000 years ago now, but really not like that long ago. And there's, you know, maybe there's one course on child development. Maybe there's, you know, a few courses on practice, but more around a specific aspect. So maybe you have a course about teaching literacy, teaching math, those sorts of things. And so you're not really getting the practical. side of that.
You're not really getting the pedagogy, you're more getting the curriculum. So you're more getting the what we're going to teach versus the how we're going to teach. And the how we're going to teach is really the key part.
Um, and so if you get good practical experiences, if you have, you know, a student teaching experience where you have a really skilled mentor, then you're in a much different place than if you If you don't research shows that these skilled mentors are key for developing our practice. Okay, and you know, that for sure, because you. The question was, why don't we use research to inform our practice? Oh, there we go, yeah. Why is everything so dated?
Why are we still doing calendar time if we know that it's too abstract of a concept for a four year old? Exactly. Why is that the norm? And why do people get so freaking on fire about taking calendar time out?
Why are they so, like, stuck to calendar time if they're like pro calendar time even if research is saying you don't like the brain doesn't work like it's not even research showing that it's like basic brain science that shows that i think for us like Who we are as teachers becomes such a part of our identity, you know, it's really become so Locked in as like it's not just calendar time like calendar time is part of who I am Like that's part of how I
see myself in the classroom and it can be really challenging when Something that we do, something we even enjoy, like a lot of teachers enjoy circle time. It's a nice time to gather together, um, and have a sense of community and you can have that without having, you know, developmentally inappropriate sort of practices, but having that shift being open to that shift can sometimes feel really like, Oh, why are you attacking me?
Um, and then we just have to remember that it's Actually not about us at all. It's actually about the kids. Um, and that, you know, one of the things we, we talk about in sort of my circles are like, it's not about. being the best at what we do. It's about making us better together. And sort of that's, that's the point of, of research. It's not about showing up to work and having this best new idea and everyone will be so impressed with you.
It's about actually sort of raising the ceiling on what we can do for children, raising the ceiling on what is our knowledge, our shared knowledge together about what works best and, and being open to try new things. Absolutely. Okay, so is there anything in your classroom? Because you are in a classroom, right? You teach in a classroom. Yeah, four year olds. Amazing. Um, and you're also in a different country. Yes, Malaysia. And so you're up at 3 a. m. for recording this podcast.
You are a doll. Yes, crazy. Thank you for doing that. Um, okay, so in your classroom, have you come across anything that Um, any piece of research that has changed the way that you do something in your classroom. Like, you did it one way because you thought that was best practice, but then you read something and you were like, okay, wait, let's do it different. I, I mean, I think I am guilty of, of the crisscross applesauce.
Debate, so I, I, and I think my struggle with it is something that's really applicable to a lot of people as far as space, right? Like there's amount of space compared to amount of children, um, can be tricky. And so for me, it was always like, Oh, crisscross applesauce. So you're not squishing other people. Um, but actually the, yeah.
The research shows, as you know, that, um, children need to move, that children can only learn if they feel comfortable, um, that physically our bodies need a little bit more space. And it was really. It was, um, it was an excuse for me that it was just easier to just say crisscross applesauce and everybody sits there rather than, um, figuring out creative ways to let children move their body. Um. Um, you know, does everyone have to sit so close to me, um, while we're doing this?
Can we make our circle a little bigger so everybody has more space? Can we do, um, you know, does anyone actually even mind if someone is sitting half on them? Because a lot of times children don't, like some children prefer to be snuggled up to someone else. They need that. And sometimes, for some kids, like, having that heavy pressure on their body from somebody else is A necessity, like they like, that they thrive on that.
Yeah. Um, also I'm going to point out that like, You did share a piece of research with me about how the proximity to the teacher matters during circle time or reading a story or whatever that when children were closer to the teacher, the outcomes were More were better. Why doesn't seem more? Yeah, they were more engaged. Yeah. And I think it was it was like a small distance.
It was like five feet if Children were within a five foot sort of perimeter of of the teacher that they were more engaged during read alouds. Um, and so, yeah, it was basically arguing for that snuggle up. effect. Um, and just being sort of aware of when do you want sort of a cluster of children? Um, when do you want a circle? It actually, that piece made me think like, I want to run my, my classrooms like a TED talk.
Like I want me in the middle, like on a, I don't know, a sunken platform or something. So I can turn around and see everybody, you know, it just. Oh my gosh, it's funny. Opens me to think about like, okay, how can I give everybody that that proximity? What does that look like?
Um, and yeah, so it's just every time I read something new My brain like goes back to work and I think that's It's really important and it's so easy to lose that in the day to day of I've got to do this, I've got to get everybody here, I've got to, you know, write this up, and it's like giving ourselves that space to actually reflect and think about our practice is, is such a gift.
Hmm. How, okay, so like, before you were, you know, pulling research together for Early Ed M, how much did you dig into research? Like, did you do a daily? Did you go in, like, every six months and find new stuff? Did you do it when you had a question about something? I think it went, it went through sort of phases. Yeah. Um, for a while, when I finished my master's, I felt really, um, sort of good. Right?
Like, I'd, I'd got a new degree, and it was shiny, and I'd learned new things, like, I learned amazing things. Um Compared to my bachelors, especially, and so I felt like, okay, I've got this and then I remember, you know, like I said, all of a sudden being like, oh, let me just go and dig that up and I didn't have access to that and Googling for research is really doable, as I said, but it's hard work. Yeah. Yeah, so it's hard work to even find the pieces you want and then.
Try to find them again to get different accesses to them and then dig through them. So I was just a bit disappointed By that and so it sort of took me a few years to sort of be like, okay This is a problem, but it's a solvable problem and really dig back into it and then I've been really fortunate to work in schools where reflecting on on practice and on research is always It's embedded as a part of what we do. Um, so I think that's been really helpful that I've been driven sort of through that.
So even when I haven't been driving myself, you know, I've had mentors who have been sharing research with me, um, reflecting on it together, um, which is a really great option for, for people who are running their own centers or their own settings to really, you know, bring it, bring a piece, bring a summary. And share that and just talk together about what would you do?
Um, one of the things we like to do is read something and then agree to go away and try something new or shift something in our practice from what we've read. Um, and then come back a second time and share like, how did that go? How did that feel? Um, you know, do you buy into this? Did it not work out? What would you do next time? And those, you know, those professional conversations are where you're really gonna make. Research come off the page and like much more meaningful for you.
So it's, it's both, you know, we can't just read it and then walk away. Um, it's the reading it and the doing it and trying things out. That's really where the impact comes. Oh my goodness. Such good information. I'm so thankful that I came across you, or you came across me, or I don't know how that worked, but I'm so glad our paths have crossed, because I don't think, so for those of you who maybe don't know, I am writing a book. I should say, I'm, I, I'm not in the process of writing it yet.
Um, I'm such a procrastinator, I haven't written it yet, and I have, it's due March 1st, which is January 16th right now. Okay, you've got six weeks, you're alright. I do, I do, I work well under pressure. Exactly. So, and I know that about myself, so I'm just trying not, you know, I'm just trying not to, like, It'll be fine. I took off a lot of time in February, so I'm gonna do it then. Perfect. And it's gonna be great.
But, I don't think I would have been able to have the confidence to write a book without having you as my research digger upper. Aww. So, I am so thankful for you and the work that you're doing. I am, like, over the moon excited that our industry has somebody like you. Thank you.
I hope that I just like hope the best for you and just in your business and that that it just grows and grows and grows because I feel like you are making it so accessible for early childhood educators and we just don't have time to do it ourselves. And so I just I appreciate you and what you're doing for our, our industry. So, tell people more about where they can find you and like How they can utilize you. Yeah, so, um, online, earlyidem.
com, there you can find, um, the research hub, which is where I try and post once a week of sort of a longer version of an article of a research piece that I've found. Really break it down into very accessible language, um, share some key quotes with you, and then post sort of just my, my thoughts and my takeaways about it. Maybe how you can use it in the classroom, um, how it sort of meshes with other thinkings that we're having.
Um, so you can find that there and it's really important to me that that is always, always, always free. Um, so much of what I've had people reach out to me and say like, thank you, thank you, thank you for this being free because I'm so.
So, you know, I see something that's amazing, and then I look at it, and it's behind a paywall, or you have to subscribe, and so that research hub on Early Ed M is, is always free, um, which is fantastic because it really, um, builds people up, I think, and we need, we need that, um, I also have free resources section on there, so the I also have free resources section on there, so the Um, where I've done some longer pieces that you can download if you give me your email. Small price to pay.
And, um, so I've got sort of, um, a bigger piece there about play research, um, contemporary play research, and then some work on early math. One of the things that's in the works is a sort of Course on current research for practitioners. So this would sort of not be like an intro course. It would sort of be, you know, for someone more like yourself who I, I know my practice. I'm looking to grow my practice.
I want to know really, what does the research say beyond sort of beyond Piaget, like beyond those things we learn. In school, what's what's sort of next for my practice? And so what it will be is looking at, um, different kinds of play, different areas of play. And what does the research really say about that? Um, so that's something that is in the works, hopefully to be released in the next few months. Amazing! Thank you again for being here.
You are such a fire in our industry and I'm so glad to know you. I appreciate it. Aw, thanks for having me. This has been really fun and I feel like you, you know, you, I love when I see my research pop up on yours because you make it come alive. Like you reflect it in such a fun, real way and that's the point. Like research doesn't have to be dry and boring. We can enjoy it. We can have fun. And, um, so yeah, you, you always bring the fun. Aww, thank you.
If you liked what you heard today, share this podcast with your coworkers, admin, or maybe even your partner. And I love getting five star reviews so more people can embrace play. Hit follow or subscribe so you never miss an episode. Or connect with me on Instagram or my website, KristenRBPeterson. com. Until next time.