Welcome to the Play Based Learning Podcast. I'm your host, Kristen Arby Peterson, and maybe your new teacher, Bestie, that is here to hype you up, maybe give you a motivating kick in the pants, and teach you all I know about play and childhood. I am here to help you challenge old and outdated practices and inspire you to create a truly developmentally appropriate early childhood environment that fosters creativity. Curiosity and joy in the Children that you care for.
Let's set the stage for a lifelong love of learning. Let's get going. Anna Valle Rivera is joining me for this episode of the Play Based Learning Podcast. We're going to talk about pedagogical documentation, but before we get into that, I want to know more about you. Tell us kind of about your journey in early childhood education and what you're doing. Sure, absolutely.
So, I began 2007. Okay. Uh, shortly after that, I realized I really love working with children, but I don't actually know what I'm doing because I just got thrown into the work. So I went to school. I went to school. I did the diploma in early childhood, you know, went to work, worked in various capacities in early childhood, decided I'm going to go back to do a B. A. Uh, I did the B. A. in child and youth care.
I loved it, decided I'm going to continue down this path of, you know, capacity building in early years. And I'm currently a master's student in professional education and supporting educators in that way. I'm the founder of Early Years Thriving, and I just love connecting with educators and supporting educators in any way that I possibly can. Oh, that's so cool. And you are based out of where?
I'm based out of Canada, uh, and just outside of Vancouver, B. C. Mm, and that's on the west coast for any of those who aren't familiar with Canada. We have a lot of international listeners, so, amazing. It's always fun to, to talk to people who are in different countries about things that are play based. So, I'm excited that you're here, so we're going to jump into it. We're going to talk a lot about documentation in this episode, and we're going to talk about pedagogical documentation.
So can you define pedagogical documentation for us? I sure can. Now before I get to what pedagogical documentation is, it's important to note what documentation is to begin with. So documentation can be, uh, you know, capturing moments, uh, items, information. I'm going to call these traces because that's what we call them here in BC. And when we collect these traces, we tend to use them for some sort of analysis.
Now, documentation on its own tends to be quite product based and not process based. So for example, when you were talking in, uh, in one of your podcasts, I was just listening to about process art and product art, you can think of documentation as taking that product art and just putting it up on a board. That's documentation. When I talk about pedagogical documentation, I'm talking about collecting these traces and having that analyzing of what these traces mean on an ongoing basis.
And that's more aligned with emergent curriculum, uh, you know, reflects whatever learning and exploration is currently happening in the early years space. And like I said, it intertwines very nicely with emergent curriculum. Okay, so, how does, uh, um, documentation play a role in cap like, helping understand the learning that unfolds within a play based environment? So for sure, documentation can be a really powerful tool, uh, pedagogical documentation can be a really powerful tool.
When we get into the practice of observing, documenting Collecting these traces and also having conversations with colleagues, parents, and even the children about what is happening.
So in BC, I just want to reference BC for one second here, but we, we actually refer to pedagogical documentation pedagogical narration because it really is about developing a learning story about what's happening for the child and also not just what's happening for the child but interconnected with, you know, the educator. And when we do this, we can really take on the role of being a researcher instead of, you know, just doing the work.
We're actually taking those reflective moments to think about what the child is doing, how we connect with the child, uh, and how we support that learning. So I know that you asked for an example. So let's, let's get into an example of, let's say water, right? So most childcare programs in warm places In the summer months, we play with water and we love water and we let the water run and we fill it up and then we let it run. And sometimes we let the hose run and things like that.
Now, in BC we've had to become so much more mindful of how we use water, especially during the droughts and the fires 'cause we have lots of droughts and fires. And so if we're not thinking about. The connection between water, we can't separate ourselves as humans with water and water usage, especially if there's a shortage of water. How do we ethically allow the children to play with water and just let the water run? If we're not taking the minutes and the moments.
Those, you know, mindful moments to observe, to think about what we see, to talk to others about what we see. We can't really uncover, you know, why we're making the choices that we do, what biases we might have, what unanalyzed assumptions we might have, and then we won't be able to really critically think about the choices that we make. So. That's just one example. Um, another quick example, because I'm wearing the Free the Glue shirt. Yes, Free the Glue!
And I just listened to that, uh, that episode. You know, Freeing the Glue is another example of where we could use pedagogical documentation in that process of observing and thinking and reflecting to make choices that make sense. Because we might be limiting the glue because we think, Hey, we don't have Enough, right? We don't have enough glue, but is it really about the cost? Is it because the teacher thinks it's wasteful? What do the call, what do your colleagues think of it?
What do the children think of it? So we can't really uncover what these unanalyzed assumptions are around the glue unless we do this deep dive and we go through this process of pedagogical documentation. I love how the terminology, unanalyzed assumptions, right? Is that what you said? Unanalyzed assumptions.
I love that, because that's really, we don't, I think a lot of early childhood educators, you know, if you're in like a traditional space, you're not analyzing a lot of times what is being handed to you to teach the children. Or teach out the children use with the children, however you want to word it. And so, um, I think that that's what's beautiful about play based learning is that there is a lot of analyzing that happens a lot of reflection on what you're putting in the classroom.
Like Lisa Murphy always says there are three, the three big questions anytime you are doing anything in the classroom is what are you doing? Why are you doing it? And who is it for? And that's just a really good way To analyze those assumptions that you've held for however long based on just your own experiences and biases. Yeah. Absolutely. That's so cool.
Okay, so one of the things that I find a lot of people ask me when I'm out touring around the world doing speaking events and whatnot for schools is, um, so I feel like a lot of adults feel like they have to be this loud presence in order to be teaching children, right? So, teaching in air quotes. So, like, we have this unanalyzed assumption that we have to be spewing all of this information out into their space and be known that we're teaching things.
Um, but when we let children play, I like to stand back and just be kind of like a silent president presence and Float in when I need to. I like to call it hummingbird versus helicopter. So instead of being a helicopter teacher, I like to be a hummingbird teacher. Like, float in when necessary, and float back out, and don't disturb things. You don't want to disturb anything. Usually you don't know a hummingbird is there until it's like, right above your shoulder, right?
So, um, A lot of times I think teachers feel like they need to be doing something during playtime, that free playtime, so they ask a lot of questions to the children and try to like, really dive into what the children are doing and get involved. What are your thoughts on that? And how do we have conversations with children about things without disturbing their play?
Yeah, I think it really depends on, like, moment to moment, and I like that analogy of the hummingbird, because When you're that hummingbird, you're observing. You're not just being that helicopter person, right? And so I think it depends on the play. So if you're noticing that the children are truly engaged in, you know, what I like to call authentic play.
It's authentic because it really encompasses these principles of play, and I'm going to reference Dr. Stewart Brown and his principles of play, right? It's it's purposeless. You know, the child is, uh, voluntarily engaged in the play. There's an attraction to it. It feels good. There's a freedom from time. You know, there's all these different principles that You, you get to know when you look at Dr. Stuart Brown's principles of play, and you see this sort of play happening, right?
The child is just, you know, not wanting to part with what they are doing. They're, it could just be something that looks as simple as dumping water from one cup to the other, one cup to the other, one cup to the other. To you as the adult, it looks purposeless, but to that child, there is something happening there, right? They are really trying to make meaning of maybe it's the density of the water. Maybe it's the flow of the water.
Maybe it's, you know, uh, the, uh, cause and effect between one cup to the other. So when you see that sort of play happening, that's when you step back. That's when you can be that observer. That's when you can take on that role of researcher. That's when you can, you know, try to. Analyze what is going on here. If you are going to take any photos, please don't be obvious with it.
I actually prefer not to take photos, uh, when I'm documenting and I'll even say to students that I work with, don't take photos, like be in, in the moment. Right? Because the photo is really product based. Why are you taking the photo? It's because you want to show the parents that this moment happened. But you can still recall that moment. You can take pictures afterwards.
Um, there are going to be moments as well where you are invited into the play when it's collaborative, when it's imaginative, when it's social. And they want it. They say, hey, come over here. You know, we want you to be, uh, you know, the, the doctor or you're the patient or you're the puppy or whatever. You're the kitty mommy or whatever it is.
Yeah. Um, uh, I just say Kitty Mommy because it just, it reminds me of the play Moments, obviously, where I was Kitty Mommy and my colleague was Kitty Mommy too. And so anyway, like when they call you into that play, that's when you, you, you join in, you're that hummingbird going in and you're interacting and you can still recall those moments, but don't take out your pen, you know, to start writing things when you're in that moment.
You can recall those moments in a, um, In a way that's like a running record afterwards, right? If you really want to. And you can recall those moments, um, with, again, colleagues, with, uh, the parents, with children afterwards. So it's really important that when we see that authentic play happening, we're not interrupting that because we want that documentation, right? We're not sacrificing those moments for the documentation. There are going to be moments that are just right.
And we wait for those just right moments to engage in that pedagogy. Pedagogical documentation. Okay. I, so you said something that was really interesting and I, it made me really think about documentation in a different way. You said that documentation, um, is product based. And that is like, I wanted to chat through that with you a little bit because I've never thought about it in that way. But it very much makes sense. Like we are turning, it's a product for somebody else.
And it also, but I also think that maybe it's a process. It is a process, um, when it, it is continual and it is living. And it is living in your space with whatever is currently happening.
When it goes, when it goes up, so let's say we've, uh, we're, I'm gonna talk about You know, let's say we've got in our calendar springs coming up, we're all hoping for spring because it's cold right now, like spring is coming up and then we've got those flowers and we put those flowers up and then we take those flowers down. But what deep dive did we really do to get those flowers up? We just basically put them out, put them up. That's the product, right?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When it's a pedagogical narration or a pedagogical documentation, I can't un I'm sorry, I can't un think of it as pedagogical. Narration. Anything other than, yeah, the narration. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because that's how it makes sense to me, right? In BC, our early learning framework refers to it as a narration. It's an ongoing story of the children's learning. Yeah. So it's, then it becomes not just about the flowers that are up, but what did we actually learn about the flowers?
Or what, what was, what was it that sparked that interest to begin with? Why did we take that deep dive? Is it that the children said about, you know, the, the learning, how deep did we go in that learning? Did we go as far as learning about photosynthesis? Did we go as far as learning about different types of flowers? Did we go as far as growing a garden?
Which now that Living Inquiry extends all the way until fall, but it doesn't even end at fall because we could plant these flowers, watch them grow, maybe eat some of them, the ones that are edible, obviously not the ones that are toxic and non edible, and then we see it all the way through, and then maybe throughout the winter. We talk about how certain plants, you know, they go away and we collect the seeds and we redo it again. And so it's a living cycle.
It's not the flower art that you put up. It goes up once, but when it's part of your living environment and you're continuously learning about it and you're coming back to it and you're adding to it, that's what makes it living in your program. That's a living curriculum. That's a, like an amazing example. For sure. Um, okay. Have, have you worked, did you work in a classroom? Did you say that? Yes, for sure.
Yeah, I worked in, uh, in child care spaces for about 10 years and then after the 10 years was when I started taking on other capacity building roles. So like, uh, college instructor, early intervention, things like that.
Okay, so when you were doing pedagogical narration, when you were in that space, were, did you find that you were easily, more easily able to recognize, um, like, kind of like a learning continuum, or, or, um, interests, or, um, things that the children were coming up with, was it easier to kind of sift out, like, where you want to go with things with young children, or So, can you expand on that a little bit, maybe?
I think it depends, educator to educator, because there are educators that I worked with who needed those, the sheets, like, needed to have it written down so that you could see it visually, like, what was going on this week, where are we going next week? And for some, it just came naturally, right? Like, the dialogue was more important. And so, I think it's important to have a little bit of both, a little bit of both of having both.
Yeah. You know, those written pieces, but also that, that dialogue is just as important as the written pieces. So I think it really depends, educator to educator, because some educators will say like, No, I don't need the sheet. Like, I know what they're interested in. I know what I saw, you know. Um, but I always find that the thing about Documenting is that it just makes it so much more real. Okay. And also, I know that you do, uh, some, some work around, you know, educating parents.
This is also not just about, you know, what the children are learning, but it takes the onus off the child, right? Why do we, why do we fall into that trap of, you know, creating the, the, the worksheets or the product art? It's because we want to show parents that something is happening at child care. Yeah. It's like a re, it's. It's like a receipt. It's a product, right? We're like, Oh, look, we did this flower art.
I'm just rolling with flowers because that wasn't even the example that I thought about talking about because you said hummingbird, it came like flowers, it came to mind, right? So, okay. So let's talk about the flower. We're going to give the parent the flower art, or we're going to take pictures. We're going to show them because we want them to know that something is happening, right?
And then we might pull out worksheets and colouring sheets, but if we take on the role of researcher, we take on the role of. Providing parents with documentation. We take that onus off of the child. We take that responsibility off of the child. So we do the work. Yes. It's a little bit more work for us, right? Maybe like five, 10 minutes of extra work to jot these things down. But then we're taking that responsibility off the child. We don't have to make them do worksheets.
We don't have to make them do product art because we are producing that for the parent and we're illustrating. What learning is happening, what we are, what we are, um, you know, uh, engaging in or inquiring about versus, okay, here you go, sit down, do this worksheet because I have to show your parent that you did something at school today or at daycare.
Yes. Okay. Can you, do you have any, so like a lot of times documentation is done through photos and videos for many educators because of the ease of technology. What are some ways that you've created ways that you've seen documentation show up in different spaces that you've been involved with? So I would say that, you know, the, the apps are great. Right? Like, I'm not against photos. I'm not against, like, recording and stuff like that. With proper permission, of course.
Um, but the apps, I find that apps are really great. As a parent now, I love being able to To log into the app and seeing, like, what the children are doing, but again, like, knowing that, you know, when these pictures are being taken, they're being taken at the right time. It's because it was the right time that it didn't disrupt the, the, the, you know, the play. It didn't disrupt learning. Um, it didn't disrupt any pathways that were occurring. It was the right time for those photos.
Um, I still love that as a parent, I have to say other ways that it can be done. Definitely boards, um, you know, showing them in boards, adding them to newsletters. I always say, if you're doing a calendar, instead of doing your calendar before the month, try taking a breath. Skipping it for a month and, and providing your calendar after the month. After, yes.
Yes, because then you can show where you've been instead of you're, you're showing where you think you're going to go, which could possibly not be where you go, right? And, and, and then you're showing after the fact. So those are some other ways that you can do it. Of course, you can get really creative with, you know, having different like websites and website hosting and, um, uh, What is it? Like social media, like the private accounts and things like that.
Um, but those are some other ways that I've seen it be done. Uh, especially I find the calendars really helpful for those who are making that transition from, you know, pre planning and, and having themes to wanting to do something that's more emergent. Yeah. Um, one of the things that I used to do that I enjoyed doing so I feel like sometimes documentation is almost like a teacher caregivers own creative process. And, um, I found that I like To be creative with it.
So one of the things that I did that I really enjoyed at one point in time was, um, during free play time, I would kind of situate myself in an area and I would just kind of like be there for 10 to 15 minutes and I would record what I hear the students. Saying and I would take some photos of what they were doing and I would just kind of be silent.
And if they needed me, I was there, but I would record things that I would hear observations that children were making rich language that they were using and I would, um.
Then make during rest time and this was really cool because it got the children Into journaling a little bit more because I would use so it was like a by teacher journal So I would sit down like before rest time so that time between lunch and when they would actually, like, fall asleep, and there was, like, this time where everybody was, like, getting their blankies out, getting their pillows out, going to the bathroom, and looking at books on their cot.
Um, I would bring their journals out, too, and I would sit near them, and I would get my journal out, and I would have the pictures, and I would print them on the, on the printer, just on printer paper, and cut them out, and I would, um, tape them into the book. around their observations and write a few more notes if I felt like it. Make it cute.
Like, sometimes I would draw pictures and stuff and the children would gather around me and see what I was doing and I'm, I would just be like, oh, remember this morning when we had this out? Here's some things that I noticed while you were playing.
And they were, like, really engaged in, like, Interested in what they were seeing on my pages, then they would maybe go and do it in their journal or just get out and doodle in their journal, write their name, write, scribble, whatever it is, wherever, whatever point in their learning journey they were on. And it was like. Such a really great way to connect with the students, but also for them to kind of reflect, and for me, to reflect on what we had done.
So I thought that that was super magical, and so I always encourage educators, make it your own creative process, because you almost want it to be play as well. You don't want to do it because you have to do it. Um, I liked to make it into like a fun, playful, Um, event for me. So yeah, it's a little journaling is a great way to journaling is 100%. We did journals as well. I don't know why that didn't even pop in my head. But yeah, we did journals, but we did not add the photos.
And that's a really nice touch. And another way to revisit with with children as well is like presenting them with Yeah, an album of what they have done, right? Because then they will scaffold and do that extending when they see it, right? Because they're like, Oh yeah, I do remember when we were, you know, in the garden and we were planting that and Oh, let's go back and see, like, have they grown or how much have they grown? You know, our little, uh, seedlings and things like that.
So yeah, definitely providing that opportunity for the children to reflect with you and revisit with you 100%. And yes, documentation is totally like you every, there's no one prescribed way to do it. Yeah, right. And so sometimes there is so by the way, I have to disclaimer this. I know that I defined documentation versus pedagogical documentation. There's no right or wrong way to do it. Sometimes that documentation, you put that up and that's okay.
Because there are going to be interests that just go up because it was the season. Right? Because it was a holiday, because it was, you know, a birthday or some celebration or something, that's okay. So I'm not saying that there's, um, that you can't ever engage in just documentation that's product based. You can do both, of course, and you choose what, what's going to work for your unique team.
If you've got a team of one or two, that's going to look different than if you've got a team of, like, Five or ten different educators, right? Absolutely, yes! And the other thing I think that I really enjoyed about doing the journal with children, to bring it back to that, is, um, that I would set it out on the table at pick up time, so then parents could flip through it if they wanted to and read about what we did that day.
So it was just a really great way, because sometimes I think that, like, Apps are great, but it just causes people to be on their screens more. So, it was kind of to take a step back from screens a little bit, and push back against that, and kind of bring things back to a more organic process, so. So, just a little tip that I That I have found worked well for me. So, where can people connect with you? Where can they find more Anna in their life? Well, you can check me out AnnaValleyRivera.
com or you can check out EarlyYearsThriving. com Uh, so I've, I've I also do the, uh, public speaking and workshops and things like that for early childhood educators and then I also provide online workshops for early childhood educators and those are my two kind of main places. I've got Instagram, I've got Facebook, you just gotta Google both those names and then they'll pop up! Oh my gosh! And we have them linked in the show notes, so you can check it out there too.
Thank you so much for spending some time with us today. I appreciate you and the work you're doing for children. It was so fun to connect with you and learn more about pedagogical narration slash documentation. So I thank you so much, Anna, for being here. Thank you so much for having me. If you liked what you heard today, share this podcast with your coworkers, admin, or maybe even your partner. And I love getting five star reviews so more people can embrace play.
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